00:00:16.090 - 00:00:28.470

Hey, Dr. Byrd. Professor McDaniel, I was muted. Ah. It's so good to see you.

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I decided to bring the casual Friday energy today. Thank you. And I thought,

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I didn't know how many weeks I would have to wear a Rice Athletics shirt before you joined me. Well, I don't have a lot of, let's say, I don't have a lot of variety in my wardrobe.

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My teenage daughter gives me a hard time about this. It's all- It's time to start listening to her. It makes it easier.

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If there's only one kind of shirt to pull off the rack. That's the way I think about it. But maybe I could go- Like today, you've got the correct, you've got the-

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Have this be the only thing to pull off the rack. That's the way to go. I see it's Adidas but what sport is it? It's actually not branded.

00:01:26.680 - 00:01:39.760

Oh my god. I wanna take back everything I said. But you're on your way. Yeah, yeah.

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In the chat, it says Rice Athletic wear is especially appropriate today as the women play in the NIT. Go Owls!

00:01:49.630 - 00:01:55.350

All right. Who are they playing? I forget. Delaware, Delaware.

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Good job. So yes, go Owls. Well, it's good to see everyone here and our audience.

00:02:07.810 - 00:02:18.390

Thanks for joining us on another Doc Talks. If you haven't joined us before, we do this every Friday at noon to talk about some of the work that we're engaged in

00:02:18.390 - 00:02:28.890

on the Task Force on Slavery, Segregation, and Racial Injustice. And you typically get to see us very much doing work in progress.

00:02:28.890 - 00:02:43.520

And I was just talking with Dr. Byrd about there's so much research happening right now that even in the minutes before we hit live on this webinar, I was torn between three different documents to talk about.

00:02:45.170 - 00:02:58.350

So hopefully, that means that we'll have some good content over the next several weeks already lined up. But what about you, Dr. Byrd? Were you struggling to decide today?

00:02:58.350 - 00:03:13.750

So, I've been going back and forth between two things for a week and not, and there's one, so not really struggling, right? I committed a little early

00:03:13.750 - 00:03:27.900

but there is one that I keep putting off and it's one that I suggested a couple of weeks ago when I said the paper I want to read is a comparative May Fete and "Ain't Misbehavin'".

00:03:28.300 - 00:03:41.750

And the "Ain't Misbehavin'" was a all-Black musical done at Rice. So I've been reading the, I've been doing some stuff on "Ain't Misbehavin'"

00:03:41.750 - 00:03:52.910

and so I thought that I would do that. But once again, I did or I'm not. Not yet, not yet. "Ain't Misbehavin'" is coming.

00:03:53.850 - 00:04:01.410

Well, that'd be great. I'll look forward to that. It'll be like another in the series of musical topics that we've had.

00:04:01.410 - 00:04:13.080

That's true, that's true. And again, I mean, you're right, just so much is connected and in my seminar this week, we've been reading about work at Clemson

00:04:13.080 - 00:04:29.670

and a project like ours at Clemson, "Say my name, Clemson" and a good deal of that work focuses on musical, African American music at Clemson before desegregation.

00:04:29.670 - 00:04:36.480

So you're right. Just a lot of stuff happening. Yeah, yeah. You know what though?

00:04:36.480 - 00:04:45.410

I think I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go crazy. I'm gonna throw caution to the wind and set aside what I thought I was gonna talk about today

00:04:45.410 - 00:04:58.200

and discuss one of the other ones that's been on my mind because this is hot off the press, it's something that's just been scanned in the Woodson Research Center yesterday and today.

00:04:58.200 - 00:05:03.200

Would that be okay with you? I don't know. It might be fine- It's okay with me. And I want the audience to know

00:05:03.200 - 00:05:18.320

that I encourage you along these lines. I think, sometimes, the more extemporaneous, the better. People who know you know that you're a jazz fan and so you don't mind improvising

00:05:18.320 - 00:05:29.670

but I also know that you like to improvise off a chart. It's true, it's true. So this would be a little bit, this is gonna be out on a limb, maybe without a safety net.

00:05:29.840 - 00:05:44.300

But hopefully, the audience will bear with me and we'll see what we can make of it. This document, the one that I'm switching to is one I have wanted to see for a long time

00:05:44.300 - 00:05:57.170

because it's referenced in a lot of the work that's been published about William Marsh Rice in the past. But usually, the footnotes in the biography or other articles about William Marsh Rice

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doesn't give the full location of the document in the archives and that's partly because if you go to the Woodson Research Center. Shout out, by the way, to the wonderful staff

00:06:09.130 - 00:06:16.820

at the Woodson Research Center. Always. And you try to look up something from the early Rice Institute records,

00:06:16.820 - 00:06:31.830

the early Rice Institute records, you will find that this is a huge collection and it has been reorganized multiple times and it also contains

00:06:32.890 - 00:06:53.840

a lot of documents from several lawsuits involving estates. And so, you can imagine in a probate court whenever there's a will of a very wealthy person being distributed and determined and administered,

00:06:53.840 - 00:07:05.270

there's gonna be a lot of paperwork. And a lot of those estate papers related to William Marsh Rice are in the early Rice Institute records.

00:07:05.270 - 00:07:18.910

And when I say multiple lawsuits, the one that probably everyone knows right away has to do with the lawsuit after William Marsh Rice was murdered and there was a lot of,

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there was a lot of litigation about that estate because as we know, Captain James Baker had to rush to New York City and intervene and prove that Rice had been murdered

00:07:34.270 - 00:07:45.870

and that he had not died of natural causes and expose the forgery of the people who are trying to steal his estate away from him. But there's an earlier lawsuit as well

00:07:45.870 - 00:07:58.130

that kind of paved the way to that murder because one of the lawyers who was involved in that conspiracy to murder William Marsh Rice, Albert T. Patrick,

00:07:58.760 - 00:08:07.130

I think I have the name right. Hopefully, somebody in the Q and A can correct me if I'm wrong. Albert T. Patrick first kind of,

00:08:07.130 - 00:08:21.680

his path first crossed paths with William Marsh Rice as part of an earlier lawsuit that occurred when Rice's second wife, Elizabeth Baldwin Rice died at the end of the 19th century

00:08:21.680 - 00:08:35.110

and there was a set of contests over her will. There was some dispute about whether or not she could change her will and also where her wills should be probated.

00:08:35.110 - 00:08:46.890

Should it be probated in Texas or should it be probated in New York? And that had a lot of implications because there were different laws in Texas and New York

00:08:46.890 - 00:09:02.280

about the property of wives and how the estates of wives should be administered. So that's a long prologue improvising to this document that I had long wanted to see

00:09:03.180 - 00:09:15.940

which is a deposition given by William Marsh Rice's nephew. One of his nephews, William A. Rice. Kind of easy to miss that because it's very close to William M. Rice

00:09:16.970 - 00:09:27.330

and I think sometimes, in fact, in the footnotes to the biography of William Marsh Rice, this source is misidentified as a testimony of William Marsh Rice from 1904,

00:09:27.330 - 00:09:36.170

which unless he was speaking from the grave, that couldn't have been William Marsh Rice or sometimes, maybe it's confused with William Marsh Rice, Jr.,

00:09:36.170 - 00:09:49.760

another of William Marsh Rice's nephews. But this is William A. Rice. And it relates to the question of what William Marsh Rice

00:09:49.760 - 00:10:03.030

was doing during the Civil War and why after the Civil War did he leave Texas and moved to the Northeast, moved to New York and New Jersey?

00:10:03.030 - 00:10:23.810

Okay, so I'm gonna see if I can share my screen here. And you got it? Okay, let me back up here. Find my document.

00:10:23.810 - 00:10:32.080

Okay. Oh, that's not it. I'm gonna keep going up here. Here it is.

00:10:33.200 - 00:10:48.290

So you can see at the top of this page, Answers to the Interrogatories Drafted by Mr. Boston to be Asked of William A. Rice. And we learned from this first answer that William A. Rice

00:10:48.290 - 00:11:03.100

was, at the time of this deposition, 67 years of age and he's living in Wilbraham, Massachusetts. And he says he was related to the late William M. Rice. He was his own nephew,

00:11:03.100 - 00:11:19.440

being the eldest son of his brother, David Rice. And William A. Rice talks about how, for a time, he had lived in Houston, Texas and he worked for William Marsh Rice as a clerk

00:11:19.440 - 00:11:34.370

from about 1853 until about 1859. Quote, "My employment terminating just before the war." And he says, "When the war was threatening, Mr. Rice consented to my coming North

00:11:35.420 - 00:11:47.390

and I enlisted in the Union Army as a member of the 37th Regiment of Massachusetts Volunteers in Springfield in June 1861." Okay, so if you're following along there way,

00:11:47.390 - 00:11:59.200

William Marsh Rice's nephew, William A. Rice, had been working as a clerk until 1859 when he went to Massachusetts and then when the Civil War began in 1861,

00:12:00.300 - 00:12:12.310

William A. Rice decided to sign up in the Union Army and he fought for the Union during the war. In fact, had an injury that will come up later in this document.

00:12:12.310 - 00:12:20.900

Okay? He remained in the military until July 1865 when he was discharged. And by the way, David Rice,

00:12:20.900 - 00:12:33.650

William Marsh Rice's oldest brother had another son who joined on the Confederate side. So sometimes, you hear the anecdotes of a family divided. Well, David Rice's family was in fact divided.

00:12:33.650 - 00:12:48.560

William A. Rice fighting on the Union side and his other son fighting on the Confederate side. And now, I'm gonna scroll down and see if I can find the part of this source that interests me.

00:12:48.560 - 00:13:00.330

And it comes on the second page of this deposition next to the number eight. And it says, "When he first came up to see his parents," he's referring here to William Marsh Rice,

00:13:00.330 - 00:13:15.570

"when he first came up to see his parents at Three Rivers after the war, either in 1865 or 1866, he spoke to me of a change in his residence and he stated to me in Three Rivers on that occasion

00:13:15.570 - 00:13:27.440

that he had come North to live and intended to make it his home for the rest of his life since things down South were so unsettled, he did not care to go back

00:13:28.320 - 00:13:43.390

as he was afraid of the sentiment in Houston because he was a northerner and was supposed to sympathize with the Union forces." Does that remind you of any earlier Doc Talks we've had

00:13:43.390 - 00:13:56.700

or questions we've considered on this? It absolutely does and thank you for an easy question, right? It sends us back to the Heaton Ranker

00:13:56.980 - 00:14:13.840

of the pre-war years when white Texans were trying to figure out how to respond to what they saw as the threats to their property. That's right and you remember

00:14:13.840 - 00:14:27.600

that we looked at some documents where William Marsh Rice was part of some public meetings in Harris County that were issuing resolutions about secession and about the threat of the Republican Party

00:14:27.600 - 00:14:42.540

to the institutions of the South. And then we also looked at the departure of William Marsh rights to Mexico during the Civil War where he continued to sell cotton around the Union blockade

00:14:42.540 - 00:14:54.640

and then we've also talked about a document where after the Civil War, William Marsh Rice signed an amnesty oath and made an application to president Andrew Johnson to have his rights

00:14:54.640 - 00:15:06.300

as a citizen restored. And in that document, we talked about this kind of ambiguous line that he had gone to Mexico to avoid the oppressive tyranny,

00:15:06.300 - 00:15:16.250

as he put it into the Confederate government. And we looked at those documents partly because of this question of what William Marsh Rice's sympathies were

00:15:16.250 - 00:15:27.550

during the Civil War. And I think I've shared with you before that despite the fact that I've seen in multiple places, William Marsh Rice being described as a Unionist,

00:15:28.590 - 00:15:37.130

the evidence that we saw in those earlier documents and that I've seen in the research that the task force has been doing is a lot more ambiguous on that question.

00:15:37.970 - 00:15:55.240

There really is not any evidence that I can find from the Antebellum period itself or from the war years other than possibly that ambiguous statement in the amnesty oath that shows any indication

00:15:55.240 - 00:16:04.520

that William Marsh Rice was a Unionist. And so I kind of wondered in my head, well, where does this idea come from? And I kept seeing this deposition being cited

00:16:04.520 - 00:16:21.190

and now, we're laying eyes on the actual deposition. So, do you think, and I hear this is maybe a harder question but a very historian question. Does this source give you confidence

00:16:21.190 - 00:16:30.780

that we can close the book on this question and say, well, clearly, Rice was afraid of the sentiment in Houston. He was supposed to sympathize with the Union forces

00:16:30.780 - 00:16:42.240

and so that's why he left after the war to move to New York and New Jersey. So therefore, he must have in fact been an outlier in the Civil War South

00:16:42.240 - 00:16:53.350

and that's why he had to leave. What do you think? Well, you were doing such a good job raising the question that you missed my answer

00:16:53.350 - 00:17:05.030

while you were asking it. I gave you a facial answer. And I'll give it to you again and here it goes. (Caleb laughing)

00:17:05.030 - 00:17:17.890

So what I'm doing is I'm pursing my lips and I am turning my head to the left and then to the right as if to say- You have your doubts, you have your doubts.

00:17:17.890 - 00:17:27.580

Yeah, I've seen from evidence before in my life of many things. Right, right. I would not count this as an example

00:17:27.580 - 00:17:35.870

of firm evidence of a thing. So why is that? And maybe you could talk as a historian about what are the sort of things

00:17:35.870 - 00:17:48.670

that make you wonder about this evidence. I'm not even talking as a historian at first, Dr. McDaniel, so I wanna apologize for that. I'm speaking as a reader of the English language

00:17:49.590 - 00:18:06.240

first and foremost. I think I've been reading since about five, I guess. And the part of this piece of evidence that gives me pause, would give me pause to use it in the way

00:18:06.240 - 00:18:16.040

that you've indicated is the part where he says, as he was afraid of the sentiment in Houston and here it comes.

00:18:16.040 - 00:18:35.440

Because he was a northerner and was supposed, right? It's the, what I would see as the plain usage of the two words was supposed to sympathize with the Union forces.

00:18:35.440 - 00:18:48.300

And so, maybe you have a historian response in mind but that's just my English reading response. Well, you're right, even if we were looking at it just from a purely technical point of view,

00:18:48.300 - 00:19:00.950

it doesn't say that William A. Rice remembered his uncle saying, I did sympathize with the Union forces and I left because of that.

00:19:00.950 - 00:19:14.730

I couldn't stand the South anymore. Instead, he was worried about the perception, perhaps. Now, maybe somebody who wanted to see in this source evidence of Rice's sympathies might say,

00:19:14.730 - 00:19:26.390

well, where did that sentiment come from? Maybe Rice had said some things in Houston that made people reasonably believe that he sympathized with the Union forces.

00:19:28.090 - 00:19:39.970

But there's a couple things that as a historian, I'm looking at this in context and often, in the biographies that I've seen of Rice, this is kind of cited outside of the context

00:19:39.970 - 00:19:52.870

of this particular document and I think the context matters in a couple of ways. One is if we go back to the first page, we're getting a deposition here of William A. Rice

00:19:52.870 - 00:20:12.350

who is 67 years of age, who is speaking in 1904 about a conversation that he had with his now deceased uncle some 40 years before, okay? So that's important, first of all.

00:20:13.950 - 00:20:25.270

The second context that I think is important is what we know about William A. Rice is no one had to suppose whether he sympathized with the Union forces

00:20:25.270 - 00:20:36.480

because he actually went back to the North when war was threatening and enlisted in the Union Army, right? That's one way to show that you really sympathize

00:20:36.480 - 00:20:47.290

with the Union Army is to enlist in the Union Army which is what William A. Rice did. And that matters to me because it kinda raises the question of whether,

00:20:48.410 - 00:21:02.810

and probably some of our audience can imagine being a part of families that are politically divided in some way or maybe when you're around the dinner table talking to your uncle at Thanksgiving,

00:21:02.810 - 00:21:15.890

maybe there's a construction you put on some things in order to kind of talk about things in the family. Well, can you imagine William Marshall Rice talking to his wounded veteran nephew

00:21:17.180 - 00:21:31.860

in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War about why he's deciding to come to the North, maybe he would have wanted to suggest this idea that he was coming partly

00:21:31.860 - 00:21:43.980

because he was afraid of the sentiment that he sympathized with the Union back in Houston. But really, that's not even the context that's most obvious to me.

00:21:45.390 - 00:21:58.180

I think the more important context is the fact that this answer was being given in the context of a lawsuit. And do you remember what's at issue in this lawsuit

00:21:58.180 - 00:22:08.730

over Elizabeth Baldwin Rice's estate? Residency, right? Residency, right. The whole question in this lawsuit

00:22:08.730 - 00:22:25.920

was where did William Marsh Rice make his permanent residence since the end of the Civil War? And if you were in William Marsh Rice's camp, you wanted to show that he intended to move to the Northeast

00:22:25.920 - 00:22:39.900

and remain there, that that was his permanent residence. And when I say in the early Rice Institute records, there are reams of depositions exclusively on this question where deponents are saying yes,

00:22:39.900 - 00:22:48.840

they had this beautiful house in New Jersey and New York and the lawyers are asking them questions like did they have a carriage there? What were the drapes like?

00:22:48.840 - 00:23:00.280

I mean, very detailed questions about the house in order to establish that was their permanent residence. And they never intended to go back. Now, on the other side,

00:23:01.190 - 00:23:14.350

if you were trying to argue for Elizabeth Baldwin Rice, which Albert T. Patrick had mentioned earlier was, you would try to show that Rice had made comments suggesting that Houston was his main home

00:23:14.350 - 00:23:29.310

and in fact, he did visit there during the winter months every year, most years with some exceptions to see old friends and keep up with his business interest and their argument was that the only reason

00:23:29.310 - 00:23:42.900

that Rice wanted to emphasize this New York residency was to avoid paying taxes on some of his Texas property that he would have been obligated to pay if he had been a resident of Texas at the time.

00:23:42.900 - 00:23:52.520

That was the argument. Now, I'm not versed enough in the laws of the era to know whether or not that was the case but as a historian, that's an important context

00:23:52.520 - 00:24:07.630

for understanding this particular answer because William A. Rice would want, he's arguing for the legal team that's showing that his uncle intended to remain in the North.

00:24:07.630 - 00:24:21.260

And so any evidence that he could provide that would underscore that would be useful. Now, notice too that on this source, every one of these answers is proceeded by a number.

00:24:22.500 - 00:24:36.070

Do you have any guesses as to why each of these is proceeded by a number? Now, I'm in trouble. The only thing I can think of is order.

00:24:36.070 - 00:24:46.900

Order, okay, yeah. Well, it's a little bit of a trick question, all right? It refers back to the first page. The title is Answers to the Interrogatories

00:24:46.900 - 00:25:01.720

Drafted by Mr. Boston to be Asked of William A. Rice. So each one of these numbers is the answer to a specific question that has been posed to William A. Rice by Mr. Boston

00:25:01.720 - 00:25:15.910

who in this case, is the lawyer for the other side, right? And if we scroll down in this folder, we'll actually find those interrogatories. So here's a few pages later,

00:25:15.910 - 00:25:26.750

the questions that were to be addressed to William A. Rice. And so we can see number one, please state your name age and address. That's why on the other page, we saw William A. Rice,

00:25:26.750 - 00:25:34.400

67, Wilbraham, Mass. Number two, where are you related to the late William A. Rice? And if so, please state such relationship.

00:25:34.400 - 00:25:45.110

You did that in number two. Now, if you remember the answer we're looking at was number eight. So here was the question that he was responding to.

00:25:45.110 - 00:25:54.010

Did he, William Marsh Rice, at any time after the close of the war, speak to you or in your presence of a change in his residence?

00:25:54.010 - 00:26:03.990

And if so, please state when and where and on what occasion or occasions he made such remarks and the substance of what he said. Did he state his purpose or intent?

00:26:03.990 - 00:26:15.300

And did he give his reasons for any such statement? Did he say anything about his having come North to live? And if so, what, and did he assign any reason for what he said?

00:26:16.480 - 00:26:28.640

Now, if this were being asked in an open court, one might wonder if the opposing side would object and say this is kind of a leading question, right? Because the question is trying to get out

00:26:28.640 - 00:26:40.730

what are the reasons why he moved to the North and prompting William A. Rice to maybe say a little bit more along those lines. And so that's why he's kind of digging around in his memory

00:26:40.730 - 00:26:54.740

and comes up with this idea that well, maybe his uncle was nervous about how he would be received as a northerner in Texas. And I have to say, it's a little bit on its face.

00:26:54.740 - 00:27:04.700

The answer is hard to believe given that William Marsh Rice had made a fortune in Antebellum Texas. Even though he was from the North,

00:27:04.700 - 00:27:16.280

it didn't seem like that had really slowed him much in Antebellum Houston society. But I'm just gonna point out one more thing. I know I'm breaking the rule

00:27:16.280 - 00:27:32.930

by going to another document here. But I think it's important because elsewhere in this folder, there is another deposition also involving William A. Rice and you can see that I'm showing you a different page now.

00:27:32.930 - 00:27:44.520

This page, the answers are not numbered with digits, they're numbered with ordinals, 12th, 13th, 16th, 17th. But they're very similar.

00:27:44.520 - 00:27:59.730

Their answers to questions that were being posed. Now, it looks like the questions are very similar because first, to the first interrogatory, he say if William A. Rice, Wilbraham, Mass, age, 67.

00:27:59.730 - 00:28:11.280

Second, to the second interrogatory, he say that he was my uncle, right? They look very similar to the answers that we just got. But now, if we scroll down to-

00:28:13.780 - 00:28:30.940

I just wanna make everyone aware of my anticipation that I am anticipating some type of interpretive knot. Exactly, exactly. Well, I'm definitely, I tie myself in knots all the time

00:28:30.940 - 00:28:45.950

so that might, maybe that's why you're anticipating it. But do I wanna point out here already on this first page, there are some differences in the answers the farther we go from the ones that we just saw.

00:28:47.200 - 00:28:57.550

Right? Let's look at the third interrogatory. Here, he says, "I was employed by him from 1852 or 1853 until 1859 in Houston, Texas as a clerk.

00:28:57.920 - 00:29:09.720

I left of my own accord because I wanted to come North." Is that different from the answer we saw earlier? I feel like we had a little more detail in the answer we saw earlier.

00:29:09.720 - 00:29:20.450

We had more detailed than the other one 'cause the other one said, "because the war was threatening or as the war was threatening, I decided to go and I did it by the consent of my uncle."

00:29:21.560 - 00:29:29.300

And here, it just says, "I left of my own accord because I wanted to come North." Okay, so there's already a little bit of difference. There's less detail.

00:29:29.300 - 00:29:42.030

And now, when we scroll down, what was the question? It was question eight that we were interested in. So now, I'm gonna read the answer in this document to the eighth interrogatory.

00:29:43.050 - 00:29:50.070

And remember, that was the question of did William Marsh Rice ever say anything to you about why he came to the North? When he came to the North?

00:29:50.070 - 00:30:02.250

What his reasons for coming to the North were? And in this answer, we get, again, a slightly different account. Here, William A. Rice says he did.

00:30:02.250 - 00:30:12.490

He said he was residing in New York. This conversation took place in Palmer in the village of Three Rivers. It was the first time I saw him after the war.

00:30:12.490 - 00:30:25.100

He said, "Everything was unsettled in Houston, Texas." Now that word was in the other one, unsettled. And he said, "It would be like commencing his business over again to reside there.

00:30:25.960 - 00:30:39.840

The US government," he said, "was then occupying his buildings there for barracks and for commissary stores." Now, that's a little bit different from the other answer.

00:30:39.840 - 00:30:52.860

Number one, the other answer didn't say anything about the US government occupying his buildings at the time. If that's true, which I think we need to do some more research to find out

00:30:52.860 - 00:31:00.400

if that were true. Could that be one of the reasons why he was worried that people would interpret him as being a Union sympathizer?

00:31:00.400 - 00:31:13.700

In other words, not because of anything he had said to that effect but simply, because his buildings were being occupied by the US Army, that's one possibility.

00:31:13.700 - 00:31:30.050

But the other thing that strikes me here is that he talks more here about his business interests than he does about his sympathies in the war. And if we scroll down, some of these other questions,

00:31:33.440 - 00:31:49.770

I think, are along those same lines. And here's where, I'm operating without a safety net. So I'm not able to find the line that talked about this. See if I can find it.

00:32:04.390 - 00:32:14.680

Okay, here we go. So a little bit further down, we have an answer to a cross-interrogation. Okay, so he gave us one answer

00:32:14.680 - 00:32:26.650

and here's the cross-interrogation. And here again, he says, "Things were unsettled in Texas. He could do better in New York." And here, he says several times,

00:32:26.650 - 00:32:40.340

I remember his saying several times that he could not collect his debts in Texas and that Confederate bonds were worthless. "I do not recall any particulars

00:32:40.340 - 00:32:52.960

out of the conversations except as above stated." So, do we have an interpretive knot? Well, maybe I'm just tying myself in a knot but it does raise a question for me

00:32:52.960 - 00:33:03.790

how to think about these two different documents. So there's basically two depositions here and it's a little bit difficult to tell I'm gonna have to do some more reading to figure out

00:33:03.790 - 00:33:16.380

which questions are being answered to which lawyer in each deposition. But perhaps, you can see why as a historian, I'm sort of hesitating before saying

00:33:16.380 - 00:33:28.870

that this answer where he says he was worried that he would be perceived as a Union sympathizer, which is again, the most direct piece of evidence, I think, I've seen to suggest

00:33:28.870 - 00:33:40.790

some kind of Unionists sympathy, can we conclude, can we close the book on it? I have my questions kind of like you because these other answers put all of the emphasis

00:33:40.790 - 00:33:53.640

not on his being a northerner but instead, on his being unable to collect on debts in the unsettled post-war economy of Houston. Of course, one of the reasons

00:33:53.640 - 00:34:05.970

he couldn't collect on his debts is because so much of his business prior to the war had been tied up in the production of cotton. Many of his debts, many of the loans he had given

00:34:05.970 - 00:34:18.910

were actually secured by enslaved people as collateral and of course, with emancipation and the abolition of slavery. Those debts, those securities would have been worthless

00:34:18.910 - 00:34:27.280

and there's some other evidence that shows us that William Marsh Rice wasn't able to collect debts partly for that reason from some of the people he had loaned money to.

00:34:27.280 - 00:34:39.510

So here we have his nephew, 40 years later trying to remember these conversations about why he left for the North in the context of a lawsuit where everything hinged on did he live in the North

00:34:39.510 - 00:34:49.410

or did he live in Texas? And we've got kind of two very different answers. Only one of which says anything about his sympathies and most of which seemed

00:34:49.410 - 00:35:01.180

to talk about his economic interests. What can we conclude from that is the question I'm wrestling with. Phew, now, I remember why I don't like to improvise.

00:35:01.180 - 00:35:12.910

I think this was a good decision. I think this was a good choice. This could be one of those if we were to go back to jazz, this could be one of those moments when an improvisation,

00:35:12.910 - 00:35:28.000

people liked it so much that they insisted that all future improvisations repeat it. Therefore. (laughing) Well, maybe or maybe you're getting a bracing window

00:35:28.000 - 00:35:39.010

into what it's like to be historian in the moment and wrestling without the answers. We've got questions trying to figure out what to make of these documents,

00:35:39.010 - 00:35:48.200

trying to put them in context, trying to pay attention to who's talking, to whom are they talking, when are they talking, why are they giving these answers

00:35:49.240 - 00:36:04.690

and I think it gets to, there is this this open question that we've considered on multiple webinars of what William Marsh Rice's views on the Civil War were.

00:36:04.690 - 00:36:16.450

And I'm kind of glad to at least have found in all of these early Rice Institute records the actual document so we can lay our eyes on it and decide what to make of it.

00:36:16.450 - 00:36:34.080

Well, and I'm, I like the, I think the ambiguity is important here and stop me if I'm just saying what you said in a different way, right?

00:36:34.080 - 00:36:51.870

Is I think it's good approaching a complex question to live with the ambiguity. One, because if you don't, you may end up doing something that you regret.

00:36:51.870 - 00:37:06.780

But two, when I when I listened to you reflect on these pieces of evidence, I wonder if this ambiguity will end up being evidence itself, right?

00:37:06.780 - 00:37:19.650

That's one of the, so if I were bracketing my notes, one of the things I would wonder is this this ambiguity may not be something to be solved

00:37:19.690 - 00:37:32.650

with additional evidence, might it also be evidence of something important when it comes to answering this question of Rice's loyalty.

00:37:32.650 - 00:37:39.330

Right, and it and it could mean, and this is kind of where we were leaning when we looked at that amnesty oath is that ultimately,

00:37:39.330 - 00:37:53.390

his loyalties were to the bottom line, perhaps. Cash money, maybe. Yeah, and but I think what it does encourage us to do is to back away from a sort of definitive assertion

00:37:53.800 - 00:38:03.880

that you see in some of the published work on William Marsh Rice that he was a Unionist. Yes, yes. That needs to be, I think, complicated

00:38:03.880 - 00:38:17.410

by the ambiguity that we find in some of these sources. And it's interesting too why people read sources in a way that when there is ambiguity, they still come away

00:38:17.410 - 00:38:25.010

with as definitive assertions, you know? Some earlier biographers of William Marsh Rice writing at the time they did, what was most interesting to them

00:38:25.010 - 00:38:33.180

is what was it like for a Yankee, for a northerner from Massachusetts to come to Texas and kind of running through some other biographies, there's this question

00:38:33.180 - 00:38:44.410

of well, did his New England cast of mind or did his Northern sensibilities shaped the way that he acted when he got to the South? Well, if that's your starting question,

00:38:44.410 - 00:38:51.370

if you're kind of already assuming that well, a northerner as a northerner and a southerner as a southerner, then you're gonna see evidence like that

00:38:51.370 - 00:39:00.840

and it's gonna be like, oh, well. You've already answered that question in your mind. It's almost a given. And that's what William A. Rice seems to be saying too.

00:39:00.840 - 00:39:11.340

Well, he was a northerner, so that's who he was. He was from Massachusetts. But if you kind of bracket that question and you're asking a different set of questions

00:39:13.130 - 00:39:27.090

as I think we're charged to ask in the task force, even sources that people have seen before can come into a different kind of light and show us something that we had not thought

00:39:27.090 - 00:39:38.530

to ask about in the past. Well, and I thought that William A. Rice may be was not captured, at least. And I mean, I'm just reading it for the first time with you.

00:39:38.530 - 00:39:48.490

I actually thought that he maybe was not captured by that sense that a northerner is a northerner. Maybe he was. But in that evidence,

00:39:48.490 - 00:39:58.320

I would want to sit with the fact that he was actually presenting a more complicated picture when he said was supposed to. Supposed, yeah.

00:39:58.320 - 00:40:09.220

One of those answers he talks about having the conversation with his arm in a sling. William A. Rice from literally fighting in the Civil War and again, how do we define Unionists?

00:40:10.750 - 00:40:22.650

One of his nephews is saying, "When the war threatened, I decided to leave and go back to Massachusetts." He made clear, that's one way of making clear where your sympathies were.

00:40:22.650 - 00:40:33.310

Indeed. His uncle did not make that decision. And so, I think that's an important point to make as well. Well, thanks, prof.

00:40:37.570 - 00:40:52.960

I'm not improvising though it may seem like I am as I get going. I'm going to start with maybe a puzzle, maybe not a puzzle.

00:40:54.940 - 00:41:09.410

But I think it... Oh don't, you hate... I'm sorry, I messed that up and I have to do it.

00:41:09.410 - 00:41:20.710

I was trying something that wouldn't quite work but that's okay. Close these windows and go. So I'm gonna start with just some things

00:41:20.710 - 00:41:31.490

to try to figure out. And I don't wanna puzzle over them too long but I'll start with two "Threshers". One from September 13th of 2002.

00:41:31.490 - 00:41:43.140

Doggone it, that's when they were gating the lots. I remember that when that was the most important question in the history of the university, whether putting an arm in front of the parking lots

00:41:43.140 - 00:41:56.360

would actually spell the end of Rice University as we know it. The conversation among the faculty got that heated. That was indeed, I thought that was the question.

00:41:56.480 - 00:42:09.330

But what I wanna focus on is the back page. And this bit about Sid '80s party that you see about midway down. And just as an aside,

00:42:10.970 - 00:42:25.900

there's a history of the back page and an African American life at Rice that is waiting for at least a paper and maybe a book or an article along those lines but that's for another day.

00:42:25.900 - 00:42:38.140

Right now, I wanna focus on that Sid '80s party Classifieds, right? I think like the back page has some humor to it. It's also a place where miscellaneous classified ads

00:42:38.140 - 00:42:51.530

have been placed in the past and often, preceding the advertisements is a headline of sorts, a humorous headline of sorts.

00:42:51.530 - 00:43:07.650

And so this one said Sid's '80s party Classifieds and the Sid '80s party is a party held at Sid Richardson College, for those of you who were not fortunate enough to be placed there

00:43:07.650 - 00:43:22.940

during your time at Rice, where '80s music was played in the '80s, they did that but they didn't call it '80s party. But in the in the 2000s and maybe the '90s.

00:43:22.940 - 00:43:34.300

Or do we call the 2000s the aughts? In the aughts and maybe the '90s. There was a party that Sid would hold and got a reputation for being very good

00:43:34.300 - 00:43:47.180

at holding this party called '80s where you would dress in the '80s and play '80s music. But then after the colon here, it says, two times a 40 party without the malt liquor.

00:43:47.180 - 00:44:03.600

So the headline writer has taken advantage of some math here that's allowed them to double the 40 to equal 80 and is making an allusion to something but to what? You'd probably have to be at Rice in 2002

00:44:03.600 - 00:44:20.580

to know exactly what they were talking about. And this is interesting because it also shows up a little later, right? This reference to 40s party in 2009,

00:44:23.630 - 00:44:38.890

again, back on the back page. And you'll see here that the back page is dedicated on this day to our RUPD fun. They have some puzzles where you can decipher them message.

00:44:38.890 - 00:44:54.440

They have a coloring where you put the mash, the mustache, I'm sorry, back on one of the RUPD officers and then they have this catch the bicycle thief. This was a moment in the history of the university

00:44:54.440 - 00:45:04.120

where bicycles were walking away a lot. There's also a moment, like a lot of moments in history of the universe where bicycles aren't actually locked down that much

00:45:04.120 - 00:45:14.700

and there may be some relationship between the two. I don't wanna comment on that. But here, you have awesome Officer Ruth needs to catch the bicycle thief.

00:45:14.700 - 00:45:26.450

Can you help her catch him and avoid running into a 40s party? And then some other things that the officer will want to miss.

00:45:26.450 - 00:45:42.110

And you'll see a 40-ounce bottle of alcohol here in this corner and you don't wanna dead in there. I won't have to tell our audience who are historically inclined

00:45:42.110 - 00:45:59.370

what those 40s referred to. Everyone knows who's paid any attention at all to popular culture that the 40s refers to a drink that flourished in the white suburbs of the United States

00:46:00.210 - 00:46:20.900

and is still a highly middle class white suburban drink. I mean you can't go to any suburb anywhere without being served malt liquor in a 40-ounce container. This is a moment where I wanted to have the chat open

00:46:20.900 - 00:46:28.870

but I can't because I was having some technical difficulties. But of course all of that is a little tongue in cheek, right?

00:46:28.870 - 00:46:46.510

Because by the end of the 20th century, malt liquor and 40-ounce containers, really, in the public imagination, however it is they started,

00:46:46.510 - 00:47:02.660

had began to occupy a different ground. Those of you who are in the webinar who used to watch "Soul Train", right? Will remember these ads by Colt 45

00:47:03.570 - 00:47:18.920

that Billy Dee Williams would do where he would pop open a malt liquor and some female companion will then enter the frame. Sometimes, just an arm, sometimes, a whole person

00:47:18.920 - 00:47:33.870

and as she entered the frame, he would say, "It works every time," right? And so we've got Billy Dee Williams here and also, doggone it, I should have, I'm blanking on "Sanford and Son"

00:47:33.870 - 00:47:51.570

but Fred, Fred, it's coming to me. A prominent African American comedian. But the point here is that by the '70s and '80s, there was a undeniable

00:47:55.370 - 00:48:10.140

advertising push in the African community around a malted liquor drink. I won't get caught up in the controversy over what came first.

00:48:10.140 - 00:48:27.370

The advertisement or the consumption. I just wanna point out that change in the relationship but also show you where we are by the '70s. And I wanted to start with that

00:48:27.370 - 00:48:38.690

because the document that I want to focus on today... Is my screen really that much of a mess? It is. Let's see if that works.

00:48:39.540 - 00:48:54.880

The document that I want to focus on today is from 2008 and is sandwiched in the "Thresher" between the two periods in which I started, the 2002 article and the 2009 article.

00:48:54.880 - 00:49:09.230

And its campus reacts to fall out from incidents, plural, at Sid. And quite briefly, let me tell you what the incident was, or maybe not quite briefly but as fast as I can.

00:49:09.230 - 00:49:29.630

On Martin Luther King weekend in 2008, the office of the college secretary at Sid Richardson College was vandalized. And the vandals littered Oreo cookies along the floor

00:49:30.940 - 00:49:44.760

and crammed them in the student mailboxes and scrawled a racist message on the door. Keep that in mind. One of my questions is gonna send us back there.

00:49:44.760 - 00:49:58.540

And that vandalism call to mind or started people to thinking about a party that it happened in the basement of Sid in and around the kitchen.

00:49:58.540 - 00:50:11.690

Anyone who's been a college magister knows that kitchens loom large, oftentimes, in private parties that have gone public but this is happening in the basement

00:50:11.690 - 00:50:31.040

in the area of the kitchen. There was a party that night called the 40s party, which was a party where folks brought and drank and alluded to 40-ounce drinks

00:50:31.810 - 00:50:44.960

and alluded to a kind of culture that some of them understood and was related to these drinks. Now, in the aftermath of this, right?

00:50:44.960 - 00:50:55.370

One of the things that happens is people begin to put that vandalism in that party together and begin to raise questions about it. And the Black Student Association

00:50:55.370 - 00:51:10.960

and some African American students at Rice are really troubled, troubled by what they see and understand as an association or racist association between having a 40s party

00:51:10.960 - 00:51:30.200

on Martin Luther King, Jr. weekend and also, the racially-tinged incident or racist incident that took place in the college coordinator's office.

00:51:30.200 - 00:51:45.390

And so, several forums were resolved from this and one is a meeting that takes place at Sid where people began to debate and discuss what this means, who's at fault

00:51:45.390 - 00:51:57.450

and what is the larger meaning behind it. And I wanna take us through some of it quickly, quickly as I can. So one of the Sid residents,

00:51:58.470 - 00:52:11.210

one of the arguments that she makes is you can't throw a party like this and allow all of this politically incorrect stuff to happen and then when an incident like the vandalism comes up,

00:52:11.210 - 00:52:20.000

act shocked and say, how did this happen? Right? You can't throw a party like this and then see what happens

00:52:20.000 - 00:52:29.190

in the college coordinator's office and go, oh my god, I can't believe that happened. She's saying that we've got to, our eyes have to be more,

00:52:29.190 - 00:52:46.010

we have to be more serious about this and there's no place for it at a place like Sid. The BSA organizes around this in the aftermath, they come to sit and eat lunch all together

00:52:46.010 - 00:53:02.720

to bring attention to the affair. One of the Sid's students who had some connection to the organizing of social life at Rice, or at Sid, argues that they didn't make the connection

00:53:02.720 - 00:53:13.920

or didn't necessarily see the connection between the theme of the party and the date on which it was held and you'll see a few other students, white and Black also say

00:53:13.920 - 00:53:25.970

that they did not see the association at the time. And this student also argues that I don't, in response to the other student, I don't feel like it was a malicious party.

00:53:25.970 - 00:53:37.230

I think that the main thing that people were trying to do, whether or not it was appropriate or successful was to make fun of racism, not to make fun of any particular race.

00:53:37.230 - 00:53:56.520

So it's kind of an allusion to kind of a party irony, right? That people were attempting to be ironic as an African American student at Sid who makes the same point

00:53:56.520 - 00:54:08.150

saying that he didn't actually see the association early on and attended the party. But once it was explained to him, he says, "Once the meaning behind the party

00:54:08.150 - 00:54:17.470

was explained to me, I understood that people were upset with it. Whatever you do, especially on campus, you have to be sensitive toward others.

00:54:17.470 - 00:54:31.140

You have to be aware of other cultures." And then just to round out the event and then just been four minutes on the questions that I that I think are important to me here is,

00:54:31.140 - 00:54:46.700

so the BSA shows up and eats at Sid to kind of force the issue around discussion. But folks at Sid or some folks that Sid are eager, right? To move forward.

00:54:46.700 - 00:54:59.180

And so the Sid president is eager to move forward and one of the things that they asked Sid to do is in the days following for everyone on the Monday following to all wear Sid t-shirts

00:54:59.180 - 00:55:10.590

to show solidarity for united community and to put this incident behind us and to move forward. And the Black student who I've quoted before,

00:55:10.590 - 00:55:27.350

their response to this is quite powerfully put as follows. "Unity, I feel like this is a time when we should be ashamed as citizens. The diversity facilitating hasn't worked,"

00:55:27.350 - 00:55:38.620

alluding to O-week. "This stuff shouldn't be happening and when they try to say the perpetrator is someone from outside of Sid, that's just wrong,"

00:55:38.620 - 00:55:51.290

according to them. "We need to talk about diversity," they continue. "A lot of times, we don't talk about it because we don't, and because we don't talk about it,

00:55:51.290 - 00:56:04.060

something like the 40s party continues. And these people that have racist feelings in their heart. No one's gonna say this out loud but there are people who have these feelings

00:56:04.060 - 00:56:22.330

and having something like the 40s party makes this more acceptable." There's some other lines worth sharing from Catherine Clack who is the director

00:56:22.330 - 00:56:34.710

of the Office of Multicultural Affairs there, there are some lines that are, some responses that are also worth sharing from the college magister at the time.

00:56:35.480 - 00:56:48.460

But I wanna round out by saying a couple of things that I think are important about this incident, some questions, some points that, hopefully, we can explore further.

00:56:48.460 - 00:57:02.750

And the first thing is, as always, for an event like this is what does it mean to map the signal, cultural and political events of Black life on campus over the generations?

00:57:02.750 - 00:57:19.810

And this is likely one of those that needs to be mapped. A second reaction I have to this is just what, I don't wanna overdo this but I think I feel this way just how important this journalism is, right?

00:57:19.810 - 00:57:32.290

This article is, captures the voices of the community in some great detail, in ways that we are, again,

00:57:32.290 - 00:57:47.610

just truly in debt to the "Thresher" for. A third issue that it raises is just the difficulties, the utter difficulties around the vocabulary of race, right? Just how hard it is for people to decide

00:57:47.610 - 00:57:55.900

if something is racist or not or how to describe these things. And one of the questions that I'll put to you quickly, we just have a minute.

00:57:55.900 - 00:58:05.140

But I'm gonna take two extra minutes. So you might have to leave but I'll be going on for two extra minutes. What do you think, Dr. McDaniel,

00:58:05.140 - 00:58:23.270

about the "Thresher's" decision not to publish what the racist message on the Sid coordinator's door was? Hmm. I don't have an answer to that.

00:58:23.270 - 00:58:38.320

No, the question didn't require an answer. It just said what do you think? I'll tell you where my mind went. I can remember this act, the timing of this

00:58:38.320 - 00:58:53.070

is important to me because the spring of 2008 is when I was on campus interviewing for a job in the history department. And I can remember, when you talk about

00:58:53.070 - 00:59:04.960

the journalism of the "Thresher", because the paper issues at the "Thresher" were all around campus. I can remember picking one up while on campus

00:59:04.960 - 00:59:13.330

and flipping through it and reading this article, or not this one but I think it was a subsequent one that was specifically about the message and then I can't remember

00:59:13.330 - 00:59:26.130

if they included it in that article or not. But I remember being struck as a visitor to campus reading about this. And it sort of makes me looking back on it now wonder,

00:59:26.130 - 00:59:38.190

the spring is also at a time when there's lots of prospective students visiting campus, other faculty who might've been on campus being interviewed, what's the impact of these kinds of events happening

00:59:39.530 - 00:59:48.170

on recruitment of students and faculty to a place like Rice. That's where my, that took- I like that question.

00:59:48.170 - 00:59:58.060

I think that's an excellent question. I'm gonna ask my question one more time but because I know you heard it perfectly, I'm not gonna wait for a response.

00:59:58.060 - 01:00:09.990

I'm just asking it for the benefit of the audience and they might answer it into the chat and that is what do folks think of the editorial decision, and I'm in agreement that, right?

01:00:09.990 - 01:00:23.310

Part of my earlier points about the back page is that there's there seem to be an overabundance of things that happen on the back page during the spring, during visitations, et cetera.

01:00:24.960 - 01:00:39.960

But one of the things that I'm interested in, right? Is what is it that we're capturing in the record? And. That's all that I guess I want to,

01:00:39.960 - 01:00:58.760

and that's the power of decision-making around recording. So I think I know what the message was. I'm not sure that in 50 years or in 150 years, it will be exactly clear.

01:00:58.760 - 01:01:10.770

And so there's some trouble around vocabulary, there's some euphemism but, and that's probably euphemism but there's also just the struggle

01:01:10.770 - 01:01:23.070

around how do we talk to one another at this new Rice? But one of the things that's different, right? Is that they are talking to one another, which leads me to the other thing, right?

01:01:23.070 - 01:01:40.040

Structurally, what's the difference between attending to an issue on eruption, at a racial eruption at Rice in the first decades of 2000 versus the 1980s versus the 1970s?

01:01:40.040 - 01:01:53.860

What's the difference and how does structure matter? We've had some examples of debates and discussions in the "Thresher" earlier on where there is no Catherine Clack

01:01:53.860 - 01:02:05.930

to get in the center of it. And if you look through some of the other articles pertaining to the event, if you peer through the pictures

01:02:05.930 - 01:02:15.730

and you look closely enough, you can also begin to ask the question is what difference does Black faculty on campus begin to make when you start to make out Black faculty

01:02:15.730 - 01:02:27.200

in those meetings at Sid? And the last question or issue that I think is worth talking about when you hear people raise the question of not knowing

01:02:27.200 - 01:02:39.860

is what do we do with this notion and idea of innocence, right? So, innocence but also ignorance and I don't mean ignorance in a bad way here.

01:02:39.860 - 01:02:52.240

I just couldn't find the better word. But innocence and not knowing. And innocence is actually, if I had talked faster, we could have we could have talked some James Baldwin

01:02:52.240 - 01:03:04.380

and the point would be made that innocence is actually a stronger word, right? Than ignorance. But it's also a concept that I think we need to wrestle with

01:03:04.380 - 01:03:13.020

at moments like this. All right. We've had some really thoughtful contributions in the chat as well.

01:03:13.020 - 01:03:29.100

So this is what happens when I improvise. As I go on too long and we didn't get as much time to deal with the Q and A and the chat. But one of the points made

01:03:29.270 - 01:03:40.360

is that willful ignorance, when does ignorance become willful ignorance? Which, I think, is a good question. And I'm also struck by how a lot of the issues

01:03:40.360 - 01:03:51.410

raised in the 2008 article are not distant from where we are. I mean there's been conversations on campus in recent years too about party culture at Rice

01:03:51.410 - 01:04:03.160

and what words can be used and what words can't be used. Yeah, it's still, yeah. So there. Another question about the first document

01:04:03.160 - 01:04:20.240

that came up was about, didn't the federal, when William A. Rice remembered his uncle is saying that the US Army was occupying his warehouse and his commissary,

01:04:20.240 - 01:04:26.920

the question was asked, didn't the federal government have the ability to take over property in the South without the owner's permission anyway?

01:04:26.920 - 01:04:38.870

In other words, that wouldn't provide us with any evidence about Rice's own loyalties and I think that's true. At that particular moment in time, those buildings could have been commandeered

01:04:38.870 - 01:04:49.220

and they don't necessarily tell us anything about William Marsh Rice's own loyalties. Someone else in the chat said that it really seems like his loyalty was to the bottom line

01:04:49.220 - 01:05:01.480

and so depending on what was to his benefit or safety in particular moments, he would appear loyal to one group or the other, which I think is a really insightful point.

01:05:01.480 - 01:05:14.860

That gets back again to the context in which we're viewing these kinds of documents. When was this statement taken? For what purpose? And that affects how we can read it and reuse it

01:05:16.630 - 01:05:33.100

in drawing historical conclusions. Another fascinating and interesting and inspiring lunch hour for me. Dr. McDaniel?

01:05:33.100 - 01:05:43.490

Same, same. And maybe next week, now, we can do the documents we set aside this week and we'll come back to them. I hope that everyone in the audience can join us again

01:05:43.490 - 01:05:54.780

next Friday and be sure if you haven't to go to the taskforce.rice.edu website, I wanna also let you know about an event that I don't think is posted there yet

01:05:54.780 - 01:06:04.120

but coming up this Wednesday. A panel at noon that will feature student researchers from the Racial Geography Project. So put that on your calendar

01:06:04.120 - 01:06:16.020

and keep an eye out on our website for the Zoom information for that, 12 on Wednesday. If you want a truly inspiring lunch hour, I hope that you'll come to that on Wednesday.

01:06:16.950 - 01:06:26.790

The students are always the best. Absolutely, absolutely. Take care, everyone, have a great weekend. Have a great weekend, everyone.

01:06:26.790 - 01:06:27.620

See you, prof.