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Hello, my name is Kenneth Taylor, the program administrator with the Houston jewish history archive here at Rice University today is july 1st 2022. And I'm here with Richard. L. B. A longtime Houston resident and a member of the L. G. B. T. Q. Plus community. Richard

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is at a long career both with the jewish community here in Houston but also with um L. G. B. T. Q. Plus jewish groups here in Houston spanning all the way from the eighties through the 20 tens. Uh Richard, how are you doing today? I'm well,

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thank you. So Richard, I just want to start off with your early life. When and where were you born? So I was born March 11th, 1958 in Lafayette indiana. Um My father was in the process of gathering degrees and so I was his PhD degree at

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uh Purdue University. Very nice. Uh and when did your family move to Houston? We moved here in 1960 for uh dad took a position at Rice University in the Department of Microbiology and Biochemistry. And uh our family at that time really it was the beginning of

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the instability of the Jewish community trying to determine whether they were going to stay in the riverside area or or move somewhere else. And so the Jewish community was still solidly in the riverside area. Uh but there was some movement out to the southwest. So my

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parents hated old homes at that time. They were referring to an old home being 25 or 30 years old. So they bought a new home, basically converted rice patty in my Ireland very nice. Uh And so you touched a little bit on it. But what did

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those early days in the city look like for both you and your family? Well when we first moved the entire jewish community was still um riverside area. So uh west, I mean east of Hermann Park and so going to the jewish community center at that time

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the J. C. C. Was um on Alameda just at the edge of Hermann Park. And so we drove across town and I mean it seems across town now but then there were no freeways and so it was on city streets and it took a long time

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to get there and then the synagogues were also all in that area. So we were we went to a few different synagogues but I would say primarily Beth Israel which at that time was at the edge of the old um san Justino High School which is

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now Houston community College. And during those few years some of the jewish institutions started moving out into the mire land area. So by the time I was finishing elementary school I think almost all the institutions had moved. So the JCC was built brand new uh just

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a few blocks from our home and Beth Israel was built across the Bayou also very close. So as a kid I once it moved I rode my bike everywhere. We um my parents rarely actually drove us, we just got on the bikes and rode to synagogue.

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Um, so it was uh, it was a pretty easy time. It was almost everyone around us seemed to be jewish and so it was, it was kind of an easy place to be jewish. On the other hand, the elementary school, which I went to Parker elementary

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school and at that time I was the only jewish kid at Parker elementary school in my class. And so the teacher would, we would do boards for different holidays and they of course, always. So Passover and easter, we're on a board together, christmas and Hanukkah, we're

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on a board together. And since I was the only jewish kid in the class, the teacher would always assign other kids too, be part of putting the board together. And so it was kind of hard to maintain something jewish on the board. It ended up, you

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know, hanukkah somehow always ended up with christmas trees and santa clauses and um, Passover somehow seemed to be more about jesus than about Passover. So it was, it was interesting. I'll just say it that way. Very much so how involved would you say you and your

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family were uh in the jewish community at the time other than attending? I mean I would say we were attendance at at jewish things, but not very, I mean my father was very busy at Rice University, he was a professor and my mother part of the

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time, she was a nurse and so part of the time she worked and I would say that it was very focused on family. Um and so the part of the family that related to doing things jewish lee we were involved with, but they, they were not

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involved with anything beyond that. So at the time, I don't think they were involved with sisterhood or brotherhood or any organizational activities. So, and and in home life are jewish, Home life was mostly holidays, but for instance, we didn't light shabbat candles every week. Um we

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sat down to a meal every evening, so Shabbat was no different, but uh, they weren't Schomer shabbas um we did keep kosher or some version of kosher, but it was really just the family and not anything bigger than that. Were there any particular events in your

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youth that made you want to stay involved in the jewish community here in Houston, So interesting. I mean, my, my brother was Bar mitzvah here. Um and I guess this kind of maybe propelled me to feel like or to start thinking about justice in the jewish

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community. So when my brother was being bar mitzvah, which was at congregation, Beth Israel and the Rabbi at that time was shocked tell, Rabbi shock tell and the reform movement and particularly Beth Israel at that time was really hostile to the more observant parts of the

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jewish community and my grandparents were all very observant. And so they came from the northeast for the bar mitzvah? And uh the rabbis said that they could not be on the bima if they were going to wear a talus or a or a Yamaka, they would

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not be allowed. And I remember it so clearly because there were big discussions about um whether they would even attend the service, the idea that they couldn't wear traditional religious objects. So um I think for me that was that was uh transformational moment. Um It didn't

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it didn't repel me from the jewish community, but it engaged me in thinking that you have to advocate and you have to know what you believe and then make those beliefs known. So um so I would say it was influential. I there was never a time

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that that from my grandparents and from my parents, that it wasn't clear that my jewish identity was a critical identity and that my connection to the community was not optional. Uh So where did you go to university? Um My undergraduate was at University of texas in

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austin, and my graduate program was at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg Virginia. Very nice. And what brought you back to Houston? Well I came back to Houston for a doctoral program uh at University of texas Health Science Center. So that's what brought me back here. Very nice.

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Uh So I want to move on to uh to your personal life? Uh and uh what it was like for you when you came out, So when and how did you come out? Yeah, so um I had a very good friend uh in school who was

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also gay. And so the two of us, I guess we're trying to figure out what that meant. And that was of course in the early 70's and the early seventies were not a very safe time to be a gay person. Um And so we did a

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lot of different things, got found books that we had of course hide and then there was a gay hotline and at that time I was living in san Antonio in junior high and high school. And so we called the gay hotline many times, I'm sure they

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were sick of us and ask questions. And um and eventually when I was able to drive um we went and met some of the people uh to understand a little more what what was possible and also what happened to people when they came out. And of

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course a lot of families rejected their kids, um kicked them out of the house, Some had them kidnapped or I don't know, committed to some kind of, you know, some kind of therapy to change them. And so I thought about my family and said, well you

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know, the the sooner I tell them the sooner they'll get over it. So I decided that this was the strategy, I just needed to tell them kind of immediately. So it was not long after I had my driver's license When I turned 16, which is in

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1974. And so I sat my parents down uh dinner and told them that I was gay and I expected my father to kind of go ballistic and my mother to be completely okay. And it was exactly the opposite. My mother went ballistic and my father was

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kind of very kind of very analytical about the whole thing and um, asked a lot of questions and that was kind of that. Um, then they, at that time my father was a professor at the medical school in san Antonio. So he and my mother decided

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to go meet with the chairman of psychiatry to know, decide what to do or to know what to do. And the chairman of psychiatry told them that they should kick me out of the house and disown me. This was his, this was his scholarly approach to

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homosexuals. So that made them that that made it really clear for them that they recognized that was outrageous and ridiculous. And so, uh, thankfully they didn't do that. And so we kind of had a detente for the rest of the time I was in high school.

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Um, but it did get slowly get better, I would just say, but it took years, I think it probably took uh, certainly all of high school and probably most of college that it was a difficult relationship, but i it was definitely the right decision because it

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would have just been worse later. Uh So you shared how your parents react uh What were some of the reactions to other those others who were close to you at the time? Well I think certainly my friends so I had really two distinct groups of friends.

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Um I had the friends that were from school and I had the closer friends who were um from jewish organizations and and jewish so the synagogue and and um clubs that I was involved with and the jewish kids. Mostly it was not a big deal and

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with high school mostly everyone I was friendly with I had chosen them because we we aligned so they may or may not have been gay but it just wasn't an issue it was um So I would say mostly it was just just not an issue um

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with with my circle of friends. I didn't know until much much much later that of the jewish circle of friends that I had. So for instance my four closest friends were for girls that um in fact they from my bar mitzvah, they made a an I.

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D. Bracelet that one of the one of the girl's grandfather owned a jewelry store. And so he hand engraved my hebrew name into a I. D. Bracelet which I still wear by the way. And um and on the back it said look I'm with therefore initials

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and all four turned out to be lesbians which of course I had no idea. And they didn't. I mean they had not come out at that point but it just kind of tells you there's some random universal karma that's happening. Thank you so much for sharing

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that. Uh Moving forward. I would like to talk about what was time. Yeah. So when I moved back to Houston for my doctoral program um I was looking for some organization or jewish group to be part of an idea leah LGBT group and team had formed

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and I can't really tell you when it started I think probably Sometime around 1980 I think so. Um I moved back to Houston for my doctoral program in 81. And they were I would say in full swing. Uh and it was a group of um LGBT

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folks who got together identified as as Jewish did not feel welcomed at any of the congregations. And so they would put together holiday activities. So they put on a service for Russia shana and Yom kippur they held a seder at pessac. Um I think they did

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occasional other shabbat dinners or things but it wasn't a lot. So in the course of a year they may have had six or eight activities altogether. Um So they typically anything they did was in a rented room at a hotel and they tried to fly very

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much under the radar. And and to not I guess not to be visible so that if someone wanted to attend, they weren't likely to be seen going in or out of whatever the activity was. And um, so the threat of being outed was very low. Uh,

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what involvement did you have in that time? So I I went to, I guess some of their activities starting when I moved here. So I definitely went to the high holidays, uh, went to pay Sasha and I think I may have gone to a couple shabbat

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dinners. So I was not involved in any way in leadership. I was young at that point, I was Very young and uh, I had no money. So, you know, it was really a struggle to pay for whatever it was and I would say the leadership was

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probably mostly in their 50s and 60s. So, um, so it was an older crowd that was running it and I was just kind of participating when I could. Very nice. Uh, and you kind of hinted at this a little bit, but how was time viewed by

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the wider community at the time? Yeah, I think probably mostly as irrelevant. Um, I think the broader jewish community, I didn't want to deal with, it didn't want to think about the fact that there were any jewish gay people like that. You know, it's a little

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bit, the way the jewish community thinks about alcoholics, We don't have any of those and um, probably very happy to have someplace where the, where the swamp got drained and they didn't have to see or hear about jewish gays and um I think the community was

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mostly pretty hostile and so the, and most of the most jewish gays were pretty closeted. So it created a situation where um it's who I am operated in the shadows without much connection to the broader jewish community. What ended up happening at the time? Well, it

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was the the those years were the beginning of the AIDS uh crisis. And so a lot of the leadership. Well I guess a lot of the participants just started dying and I think in general there was malaise in the in the gay community. Um it was

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pretty hopeless and religion seemed pretty irrelevant and uh so I think it just stopped. So probably in the kind of mid late eighties, sometime 85 86. It it just disappeared and so there was nothing for a number of years. I know and that that leads me

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to my next question, you know, following, I'm like, was there any immediate place for L. G. B. T. Q. Plus jewish Estonians to go to or so know when it's time Faded away. There was nothing. And um there was nothing for a number of years. And

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then um the there was a book that came out in the late 80s. So like 1989 there was a book that came out called twice blessed. And I think that whole title is something like twice, twice blessed on being gay and jewish some something like that.

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And um, so the jewish community center brought the speaker, brought the author in and held a community program With this author speaking. And as part of this program, they, they had a sign up sheet for people who might be interested in some organization that addressed the

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needs of uh gay and lesbian Jews in in the city. And so that was like 1989, And there was a huge sign up. So they ended up with close to 300 names of people who said they wanted something. And I think the jewish community center was

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very surprised at the outpouring of interest. And so they held some organizing opportunities. And so I was part from the beginning, I was part of that. Um, and so we organized and the people who seemed to be really motivated kind of became this core group that

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ended up being the board. And as things were back then there were a lot of negotiations about how many lesbians should be part of it, how many gay men should be part of it. And they needed to be absolutely the same numbers. Uh, and activities needed

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to be balanced thinking about the interests of the gay men and the lesbians. And then there was the discussion about, well what activities, So this group of, of gay and lesbian jews came together and there's an interest in doing something jewish. So what does that look

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like? So uh to begin with, there was an interest in having Shabbat dinners and services and so we organized those and then there was also the, the interest in holiday activities. So we started trying to plan those but also social. So a lot of uh, a

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lot of the members wanted to meet, they wanted to meet a partner who was also jewish. So that was a need for social activities. So we had volleyball games and softball games and canoeing events down Buffalo Bayou. And I mean a lot of different kinds of

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activities, I would say for a number of those years, we tried to do something several weekends a month. Um, but the other challenge was that most of the people were not out or they were out in their own community setting with their friends, but not out

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with their families, uh, certainly not wanting to be recognized within the jewish community, especially if they were from Houston. So that made it a little bit challenging, trying to plan things that we were able to publicize. So we again found ourselves publicizing some things within the

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jewish herald voice uh with some mystery phone number that was nobody's phone number and people had to leave a message and knock three times and know the secret handshake and then also in the, in the gay press. Um, at that time there were a couple, there

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was a newspaper and also a magazine that came out. So we publicized there as well. Um, so trying to be visible and invisible at the same time. Uh, and did this particular group did have a name? MS. Yeah, yeah, which is um, I mean it was

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kind of an interesting name, so it's was supposed to be like gay family. Um it was anyway, I don't remember how the name came to be, but um, yeah, so so as time went on, um, we, we wanted to be able to also, since we didn't

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want to have to put on all the services and people wanted to have an opportunity to, well also, I guess the other thing is that when gay jews come together, one of the things that becomes obvious is that not all gay jews share the same flavor

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of Judaism. So um jews affiliate by their, by their um level of observance. Well gay jews, there aren't enough of us in a city like Houston to separate beyond just being gay jews into levels of observance. So at at any holiday, anything that had a religious

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flavor, there was a big difference of opinion about how things should be observed. How, how should we celebrate Shabbat, how should we hold a seder, you know what was or was not allowed. So we decided that we needed to also go to the different congregations and

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have us participate in their services, so um so we started, well we decided we were going to approach every congregation in the city and ask them to welcome us to a Shabbat service. Um so friday night for us to be able to come as a group

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and be recognized from the bima. So our one criteria was that that they would have to just acknowledge that mitch McConnell Azeem was present. So um um of course it was a little challenge because as I said, many of the people who were from Houston didn't

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want their families to know that they were gay, so they were still kind of closeted within the jewish community, their families may have known, but their families didn't want to be embarrassed in public by having someone gay in the family. So when we started talking about

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who was going to go meet with these different rabbis, Almost everyone was unwilling to do it because of that and um of course since I had told my parents when I was 16, uh they didn't care, I didn't care. So I ended up being the person

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who went and met with all these rabbis and um so I can tell you the shining star. Um so Brit Shalom was the first congregation that agreed Rabbi Osaki um didn't even think twice about it. Of course it made perfect sense. So we went uh to

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brit Shalom, we did not find such a welcoming environment at the places you would think would have been the most obvious. So uh congregation Beth Israel was not willing. Um Emmanuel was not willing. Um Beth you Sharon was not willing. Um but Rabbi Radinsky United Orthodox

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was also very welcoming. So it was interesting that the more conservative or more traditional congregations were immediately uh welcoming. So I particularly remember approaching Rabbi um Jack Siegel at at Beth you sure, in It was 1992, and the reason I know it was 1992 is because

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the Republican National Convention was in Houston and the Congregation Beth you Suren was holding trainings for Jewish women who wanted to protest about the Republican National Convention stance on abortion. And so I met with Rabbi Segal and asked him if they would welcome us, not that

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they were having us stand, we didn't want to stand. Um we just wanted them to say from the bima this evening joining us is congregation mitch McConnell is um they didn't even have to say it's the gay and lesbian congregation just that's it. And so his

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response was no, we can't do that because that would be political and we don't get involved with political things And I said, but rabbi your training women to protest at the Republican National Convention. His response was that's different and I would say that really was what

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we ran up against for most of the 90s is that most of the mainstream congregations were not welcoming. Um I have to also, I guess I didn't mention that the jewish herald voice is another, I would say, bright spot in our community and that goes back

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to its Haim. I mean, it goes all the way back that uh the leadership at at the herald has always been very welcoming and recognized the need for uh sharing information about different things that are happening in the jewish community regardless. So um they were also

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really terrific and always posted information. We didn't, we didn't have to pay to be listed and for them to share what programs or activities we were offering. Very nice about how long did mr capitalism last. So um it started, like I said around 1990 and probably

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ran until about 2009 and um over the years. So the first, I guess road bump that we hit was that we started to be successful in um so over time, I mean, it wasn't like we met with the rabbis one time and they said no, and

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we said, okay, there you go. Um so um we approached them every year or sometimes multiple times and so eventually uh congregations particularly Emanuel and Beth you Sharon started to be more welcoming and and um that really changed how many people felt that they needed to

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come to mitch McConnell isn't because they became members of these other congregations and of course brit Shalom had quite a number. So that was one thing and then um there was really a split that the, that the women in the group didn't feel that it was

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as responsive to their needs and so a lot of the women just stopped coming and then um the group started to age just like what had happened with its Haim. Um Well of course they, a lot of them died from, from HIV, but as this group

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aged, they just, people started getting old and dying and so we ended up with, if a younger person would come, they would look around and everybody was significantly older and they decided that we were not the right address. Um so it just became a little bit,

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I guess it came less relevant. Um so I think sometime around 2009 is when it, it really kind of just stopped, stopped functioning um yeah, uh so in your view, what do you think for some of the greatest accomplishments of, of both? And yeah, it's really

00:29:49.480 - 00:30:08.180

provided a venue when there was no other venue in Houston for someone who wanted to continue to have a jewish jewish communal identity and I think they were critical at the time um and you know, thank goodness for the vision of some of the leaders at

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the jewish community center to recognize that that was still needed and to create the opportunity for mitch McConnell is um to start, I think what mitch McConnell is um was able to do um First of all is to is to continue to pick at the rest

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of the jewish community about the need to address the needs or even to address the the existence of gay jews instead of to ignore our community. And then also to reconnect gay jews to their jewishness. So um people may have come because they were frustrated by

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the by the their unique identity that was not particularly welcome within the gay community and so they would come to Miss McCardle Azeem but they didn't maybe they didn't know or remember what jewish tradition and jewish observance looked like. And so they were a little afraid

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to go to a synagogue because they weren't sure if they were going to be comfortable and so we were able to get them re acquainted with their jewishness and then introduce them to the congregation um where where they would fit most appropriately. So I didn't mention

00:31:34.910 - 00:31:53.360

this one of the things that we did each year. So the first few years we tried to do what eights Haim had done and hold High Holiday services and um I'll just say it was beyond our capabilities. It's it's a much more demanding activity than what

00:31:53.370 - 00:32:09.210

any of us were wanting to sign up for. So at that time in Houston there was an agreement between all the congregations that if you were a member of one congregation, you could attend High Holiday services at any other congregation, As long as you had a

00:32:09.210 - 00:32:28.000

ticket from yours, you could trade your ticket in for a ticket at a different congregations. So um so we said okay this is a good idea. We can just for our members will issue tickets for mitch McConnell is m and then we'll go to the other

00:32:28.000 - 00:32:44.690

congregations will ask people where do they, where would they like to attend? High Holiday services based on the flavor that most matched them. And we would, I mean actually I did this most of the time I would then go meet with the each congregation and tell

00:32:44.690 - 00:33:03.560

them I have 12 members that would like to attend services here are their tickets and get the exchange for tickets from them. So um so people also were able to then have the experience of going to whatever congregation um seeing what the service was like meeting

00:33:03.560 - 00:33:27.980

other people. And so over time our members many, most of them probably ended up joining some other congregation because of the opportunity to attend particularly High Holiday services. Since truly most of us only attend High Holiday services at our congregation. So um in like uh I

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think it was like 2000 and two I think I had gone that that year I had gone to all the different congregations and I went to Beth you sure and I had a list of people who wanted to attend Beth you Sharon and they had just

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hired a new executive Director Lou Dorfman. And so um I had called and scheduled a meeting with him and so when I showed up he was outside in the parking lot, they were repaving the parking lot in time for high holiday services that were coming up.

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And so I introduced myself and he introduced himself and and he said you know Richard, he said we have Shabbat every week, we hold Shabbat services and they're open to the entire community, anybody can come. He said there are only three days a year that you

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have to have a ticket and you have to be a member to come. And he said um he said truly for us to do things like this to be able to pave a parking lot. So people have a place to park. He said, people have to

00:34:35.810 - 00:34:49.450

be members, they have to pay dues. He said, so I'm going to do this this year, I'm gonna honor your tickets. But this is the last year, he said you should tell your members who want to come here for high holidays that they should be members

00:34:49.450 - 00:35:03.830

of Beth you Sharon. And uh and I said, you know, you're absolutely right and I had never thought about it the way he expressed it that if you want to be a member of the community, you have to invest in the community, you can't just be

00:35:03.830 - 00:35:20.150

a visitor. And so I went home and I went back and joined Beth you Sharon. And that's that was when I joined Beth You Sharon was as a result of lou Dorfman telling me if you want to, basically you need to pay to play, you need

00:35:20.150 - 00:35:35.110

to be part of the community, definitely. And that's a perfect segue into our next section. Uh So you can talk about how you became a member of congregation Beth Sharon. Uh So how did you, an openly gay man become a board member then of the largest

00:35:35.110 - 00:35:57.870

conservative congregation in the U. S. Especially at that time. So as I said, I had than making the rounds to every congregation in the city and actually not just congregations but organizations and institutions for we always were looking for different things or trying to engage in

00:35:57.870 - 00:36:15.410

different ways. So I knew everyone. Um so when I join Beth you Sure. And I also knew a lot of people of course that Beth You Sharon, but also a lot of people elsewhere in the community. So I think by the time I was invited to

00:36:15.410 - 00:36:33.330

join the board of Beth You Sure. And I already had been serving on the board of the anti defamation League american jewish committee and I may have also been on the board of the jewish federation at that point. And, you know, if they wanted to, if

00:36:33.330 - 00:36:52.010

any jewish organization wanted to demonstrate that they were a welcoming organization. They didn't have a lot of choices of out gay people in the jewish community. I mean there were certainly plenty of gay people, but not a lot who were out within the jewish community. So,

00:36:52.020 - 00:37:13.020

um, I think perhaps the, my big advantage was I showed up and uh, and people knew who I was and I was identified not just as some jewish person, but a gay jewish person who was active and interested and had an opinion. So I think that's

00:37:13.020 - 00:37:37.020

probably what, what qualified me to be on the board. Very nice. Thank you for sharing. Uh, how did you meet, uh, your future spouse? So I was um, so one of my volunteer activities is that I, um, so my background is in nutrition and so I

00:37:37.030 - 00:38:00.210

worked a lot within the HIV community, developing nutrition programs, not just in Houston but around the country. And so, um, there's a church in the Montrose area bearing United Methodist church and they had started uh, adult day program for folks with, I would say debilitating HIV,

00:38:00.210 - 00:38:22.410

so still functional but debilitating. And perhaps they had limited resources and so they didn't have much of a functioning nutrition program. And I was engaged by them. They asked if I would help them uh, figure out how to have a, because it was adult day program

00:38:22.410 - 00:38:43.760

every day, how would they have, uh, some kind of meal program? So I was writing a grant for bearing United Methodist Church and writing grants is not really my forte and um, and its brain numbing. So I had gone to a coffee shop in Montrose just

00:38:43.760 - 00:38:57.200

to get away from sitting in the library. I thought I'll go to this coffee shop, I don't drink coffee, but I thought I would just go there. So it was a sunday morning and I was sitting working on this grant and I looked up and I

00:38:57.200 - 00:39:15.730

saw jerry across the room and basically said, okay, this is the person I need to meet. And so I left the grant sitting on the table and went over and introduced myself. Um, and he tried every slippery way he could to not talk to me and

00:39:15.730 - 00:39:33.820

it didn't work. So, um, anyway, so he eventually, he agreed to give me his phone number, which he gave me the wrong number. Um, he claims he's just really bad at numbers. I think he was trying to ghost me. But um, he had mentioned where he

00:39:33.820 - 00:39:54.630

worked and so I tracked him down at his work and so we went out, that was, he eventually had to just succumb and go out with me. Very nice. Uh, so, you know, after y'all met um, did you and him, did you face any struggles, you

00:39:54.630 - 00:40:16.930

know, becoming members of your congregation of congregation? Beth you Sharon. So we didn't, we didn't face struggles being members the challenge at Beth you Sharon and, and a lot of congregations across the country, even congregations that claimed they were welcoming is they didn't have a structure

00:40:16.940 - 00:40:36.730

that would recognize a couple that was same sex, So jerry and I each, we were each expected to be individual members of Beth You Sharon. So I was a member and he was a member, but we were separate members who just happened to be in a

00:40:36.730 - 00:40:58.000

relationship and live together. So, um, at some point I decided that was a ridiculous thing that, that we were not recognized as a couple. And so I went to the rabbi, Rabbi Rosen at that time and and asked him about it and he of course said,

00:40:58.000 - 00:41:18.370

well, you know, that's a membership question, it's not a it's not a rabbinic question and membership basically said, yeah, that's just the way it is. So then I started researching what congregations around the country did recognize um, couples, same sex couples and found a few examples

00:41:18.370 - 00:41:37.120

and um, got their policies and brought them back to Beth Fisher and, and um, so they, it was a big discussion, I'll just say that Beth You Sharon struggled with it and ultimately, the way they got around it, they, I'll just say that the jewish community

00:41:37.120 - 00:41:57.380

in Houston generally is not at the forefront of, of, we're not, we're not cutting new cloth on how to be welcoming, um, in general. So, um, when they struggled and put it through their meat grinder, what they came up with is that if you are, if

00:41:57.380 - 00:42:15.210

you live at the same address, then you can join as a family. So it, they sidestepped whether they were really recognizing a gay couple. And so they just said, well, you know, if a father and his daughter live at the same address, then they can be

00:42:15.220 - 00:42:33.500

have a family membership if too people who are cohabitating, uh, but have chosen not to get married, they get to be a family. So, um, so ultimately we were able to join as a family because we live at the same address and we both want to

00:42:33.500 - 00:42:55.160

be members of Beth You Sharon. So it was um, I would say it was the long process that Beth you sure in um, had to go down to to become more uh, LGBT friendly. Uh, so how did you and your partner become the first gay couple

00:42:55.160 - 00:43:14.590

to be married at Beth You Sharon. Um, Well, so, um, we had, we had decided that the only way we were going to be married was if we could be married within our own community. So the idea of jumping on a plane and flying to hawaii

00:43:14.600 - 00:43:30.020

or flying to massachusetts, which we had friends who did those things. That what was the point, it was to say that you were married somewhere else, but not married here where, I mean our community is in Houston. So we decided we'll only get married if we

00:43:30.020 - 00:43:49.790

can be married in Houston with our community and we figured that will never happen. So that's not really a big discussion. Also then It was 2015. And uh we had boarded a plane, we were on the way to visit family and friends in Sweden and so

00:43:49.790 - 00:44:11.450

we were uh we boarded a plane on June 26 and uh flown to Frankfurt when we landed in Frankfurt we went to the Lufthansa lounge, put our bags down and on CNN there was a big announcement that the Supreme Court had just declared that that same

00:44:11.450 - 00:44:29.700

sex marriage was legal. So we kind of looked at each other. Okay wait so does that mean we can get married? Well interesting. So we decided yeah we need to get married. So then we got on the next plane and went to Stockholm and when we

00:44:29.710 - 00:44:48.320

got to Stockholm and got to our apartment I pulled out the computer and sent Rabbi Rosen and Rabbi morrigan uh an email and each one of them and said hey you know we we just learned that we can now legally be married in texas and so

00:44:48.330 - 00:45:04.950

we'd like to be married so what do we have to do? And uh so we heard back from them and they said well you know we the congregation doesn't have a position on that. So basically we don't know so when we got back from that trip

00:45:05.480 - 00:45:22.270

um I started meeting with different people at Beth you Sharon. And so Rabbi Rosen said well I think it's a you know this is a ritual committee discussion. And the ritual committee said, oh hell no this is not, this is not ours. So this is an

00:45:22.270 - 00:45:41.000

executive committee discussion. And so then it was pitched to the executive committee and the executive committee said no, no no no no, this this is a rabbinic discussion. So everybody was trying to and so then you know, Rabbi Rosen said well you know we're the largest

00:45:41.000 - 00:46:00.820

conservative congregation in the country, what we do will affect the whole country. So we really need to we need to think about this among all the rabbis, we need to have a unanimous decision about what we're going to do. And so meanwhile I'm saying well you

00:46:00.820 - 00:46:21.190

know that's great but we need to make arrangements. So um so we reserved a room at Beth You Sharon and uh we told everyone and I and I said well you know we don't have that many options for when we could get married. So we started

00:46:21.190 - 00:46:36.680

making arrangements that we were going to be married the day after thanksgiving. So the friday after thanksgiving of that year. And uh of course Beth You Sharon was still in chaos over this whole thing like you know on the one hand they were hoping that we

00:46:36.680 - 00:46:52.750

would just go away which we weren't going away and um and so they were trying to figure out how to kick the can down the road. But meanwhile I had booked the room and started to really make arrangements and said you know november 27th it's it's

00:46:52.750 - 00:47:13.940

coming. So we move forward with it and kind of notifying, inviting people notifying people. Um And eventually the rabbis all agreed. I mean it was unanimous among the rabbis that Beth you sure in that they agreed Beth you sure in should be willing to perform same

00:47:13.940 - 00:47:34.280

sex weddings. And of course meanwhile we had to try and find what is a conservative wedding ceremony look like. It's not like that was readily available in 2015 either. So we had pulled those things together. Um And so I think it was like october 29th that

00:47:34.290 - 00:47:54.790

Rabbi Rosen sent out a notice to everyone in the congregation that the rabbis had agreed and the board had agreed that they could perform same sex weddings. And so we were married actually we the whole ceremony happened in the main sanctuary on the bima. So everyone

00:47:54.790 - 00:48:11.170

sat on the bima. Um We had about 100 people. Um So and then we had the reception at Beth you sure in. So it was it was lovely, we ended up being married by both Rabbi morgen and Rabbi Rosen together. Uh They it was it was

00:48:11.170 - 00:48:26.830

lovely, thank you so much for sharing that. That's awesome. Uh So just kind of moving forward kind of getting to the ending of this interview. Um You personally how do you feel that the relationship between you know the Houston jewish community and the Houston L. G.

00:48:26.830 - 00:48:50.360

B. T. Q. Plus jewish community has changed since the days of its time up until today. Well during the time of its Haim the jewish community didn't even acknowledge that there was an LGBT jewish community and I think tried to avoid having really having any discussion

00:48:50.360 - 00:49:16.030

about gay and lesbian issues, certainly didn't really take any kind of position, was not in any kind of uh advocacy role, you know, was was just invisible within the gay community. Um and so at that time I would say they were two separate worlds with its

00:49:16.030 - 00:49:38.840

high, I'm trying to bridge those two for for gay people who were jewish and today I would say that at least right now which we'll see what happens as you know as legal issues are are re explored in America, but right now the jewish community in

00:49:38.840 - 00:50:07.160

Houston more or less mirrors the the more liberal texas aspects of the community. So I would say is is um open to people who are LGBT um it's safe to be gay in most jewish settings in Houston. Um I think the the community still doesn't really

00:50:07.160 - 00:50:26.530

understand what it means to be welcoming. So I think allowing us to be members is their idea of being welcoming and I think that's true. You know we're starting to as a as a jewish community nationally? We're starting to struggle with how we how we address

00:50:26.530 - 00:50:49.180

making people uh feel welcome or recognized if they're from diverse communities as well and I think that I don't think we do much better with whether they're african american jews or latino jews or uh asian american jews or LGBT jews, I I think we struggle with

00:50:49.190 - 00:51:09.000

all of those um anyone who's kind of outside of the norm and I would say the Houston jewish community as a whole tends to be, tends to be more conservative and tends to be more cautious. And so when uh when the broader jewish community became, sorry,

00:51:09.000 - 00:51:31.870

when the broader Houston community became more welcoming, the jewish community mirrored that but was not out in front, and I think if the Houston community starts to retract its welcoming environment, I would not expect the jewish community to be much different. So overall do you feel,

00:51:31.880 - 00:51:42.580

I mean, I mean what do you feel the trajectory is, I mean obviously with recent events, you know, I mean if I would have asked this question a month ago, you know, I mean the answer probably would have been different. Um but just with the recent

00:51:42.580 - 00:51:53.650

events, I mean, do you feel the overall trajectory, I mean, do you feel it's positive, do you feel it might be negative? Do you fear feel that we're kind of just in the midst of just uh I don't know, we're gonna have to see how things

00:51:53.650 - 00:52:15.760

go. Yeah, I think it's definitely, and and I don't know um you know what is it martin Luther King said the the arch of history bends towards justice. Um but I guess it's not a it's not a complete art, it's perhaps there's some twists within the

00:52:15.760 - 00:52:42.810

bend and I I think that like I say Houston's jewish community tends to be, I would say conservative. Uh so even the even the liberal voices are conservative if you look at it within the broader jewish world. Um and I think they're cautious. So so I'm

00:52:42.820 - 00:53:02.720

I'm hopeful I think the jewish community will be slower to to snap back than perhaps the rest of Houston but I also think they will retrench. Uh and and I don't think the Houston jewish community is going to is going to want to be the lightning

00:53:02.720 - 00:53:21.140

rod to stand up for rights of other groups. I I just don't think it's, well as it relates to LGBT issues, it has not been a community that has in my history with it been very um they haven't then at the forefront, I'll say it that

00:53:21.140 - 00:53:36.630

way thank you for sharing. Um just so to wrap up this interview uh you know with your story and obviously with the story of and uh uh what legacy would you like both your story and the story of the Houston, jewish L. G. B. T. Q.

00:53:36.630 - 00:53:54.760

Plus community you know to leave with readers and those who are listening to this interview, you know, years from now. what legacy would you like to leave? I love that. Big, big, big question. No pressure. So, um, well, I think, I mean, what legacy, I would

00:53:54.760 - 00:54:15.190

say one lesson is that uh if you want to place in a community, you have to demand it and um sitting on the sidelines waiting for someone to come and tell you that you have a place. I think you'll stay on the sidelines forever. And I

00:54:15.190 - 00:54:35.510

think that's true for whatever, you know, whether, you know, when I think about the broader jewish community and people who are marginalized and I think we do a great job as a community of marginalizing uh people who maybe come from non observant families or people who

00:54:35.510 - 00:55:00.940

come from blended families. LGBT folks, diverse folks. I think we, you know, we we still want the ideal jewish person who is, you know Ashkenazi from some that can trace their family lineage back to some skeletal um, and has this lovely little um, you know, fiddler

00:55:00.940 - 00:55:18.980

on the roof story and the further away from the fiddler on the roof story, uh the more difficult it is to find a place and yet once once you request your place and make it clear that you're willing to do the work to be part of

00:55:18.980 - 00:55:39.270

the community, I think the community will create space and that space is very meaningful and and it's meaningful for you as an individual, but it also is transformational for the community, and um the only way our community goes through that transformation is by us demanding a

00:55:39.270 - 00:55:54.840

seat at the table. Um but then really being willing to play within the community and not just demanding a seat at the table, but then not being willing to do the work to make the community more inclusive and and broader. So I don't know if that

00:55:54.840 - 00:56:12.050

answers the question exactly, but I just I think our community is stronger, the more of us that sit at the table together. Thank you so much. Well, Richard thank you so much for sitting down with me and sharing your story. I very much appreciate it. Great,

00:56:12.060 - 00:56:13.300

thank you. Thank you.