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well, good morning, my name is Kenneth taylor. I'm the program administrator at the Houston, jewish history archive at Rice University here in Houston texas. Today we are speaking with, can you all introduce yourselves Annette and ken. Perfect. So uh, you know, I guess let's just get

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this right started to what y'all's history is a net and ken are both native Texans. Born out of Beaumont texas. Uh they both had long careers, uh, you know, um, for a net in the, in the entertainment industry. Um, and also, you know, working with the

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jewish community and ken has had a long career as a dentist here in Houston texas. Uh, but also in the U. S. Air force. And the Net has also had some relations with the US Army as her husband was stationed over in Germany during the Cold

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War. And both are very involved with congregation Beth you Sharon here in Houston texas and both had a very long and storied history and so but with that, y'all, I want to be able to know all of your story with the first question. And this question

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is for both of you, when did your family immigrates to the United States? And how did they end up in Beaumont texas? Which one of y'all would like to answer that. Um Okay, our paternal grandparents came probably first in beaumont Texas and I don't have any

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idea of how they got there are maternal grandparents came to this country and about my grandfather in about 1910 or 11. My grandmother came in steerage after that about 1914 or 15. They were in New York got married but knew each other before in belarus uh

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after they got married my grandmother became pregnant uh and they had a in new york a consumption epidemic which is tuberculosis and they were looking to leave. So they decided on a warm, dry climate. Um The story goes that they wanted to go to austin texas.

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My grandfather went to the train station and his broken english asked for two tickets to austin texas. Well there is a street in new york as you know on the lower east side spelled H O U S T O N. Pronounced halston. And the clerk at

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the train station gave him two tickets to Houston texas. They got on the train, they came to Houston. My grandmother got off the train and looked around and said she couldn't stay here. So they went to the end of the line which was Beaumont and there

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they had a landsman um by the name of wide uh and uh mr wide gave money to my grandfather to buy a push cart and that's how they got to Beaumont texas. All right. And so once your family got into Beaumont texas, they had the push

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cards. But you know what else did they do after that following to get established? I know around that time, I mean this was I mean it wasn't shortly after spending the top, but I mean this was still whenever the big boom was going on was 1919

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13/13 because the first child was born in 1913 and that's why she left new york. Alright, alright. And so so they got the they got their push cards, what you know what was their experience, what was their journey after that in Beaumont? Uh You know how

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did they get settled? Did they become involved in the jewish community? How did all that look at the time? Well you fill in beat but they did the push cart, they got a little money and then they were able to open a little store. Um They

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became involved in the jewish community because the jews in the south always congregated together. They connected so they knew everybody from day one that was there, that they that they got there, they began to know everyone and and they were always committed to both the jewish

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community in um Beaumont and to the jewish community in Israel. So the resign is always, They progressed from the push cart to the store and then they store got a little larger uh during uh probably in the 40s that fire and uh they wanted to go

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to a larger store. Um My grandfather was almost a little bit reluctant to do that. My grandmother who was tough as nails. Uh she found another place, it was a saloon, a farmer saloon that had sawdust on the floors. Uh they rented it, it happened to

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have been owned by a pair of sisters, um, who never married? They were jewish sisters, the levy sisters. And there they stayed in that store until the store was closed, until they closed it. It was a very, it was a large store, a what they called

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it, dry goods and it was everything from, certainly not just dry goods, which was um, dry goods was really bolts of material and thread and needles and things like that. And so they began to carry everything they had worked closed was a big part of it

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because of the oil industry that was around the area and the petroleum industry, the refineries, but also they carried Children's clothes and shoes and everything from literally from, from crib to crib, you might say they had in that story was, it was large for a store

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of its kind to be run only by five family members, that was it. My two uncles and aunt and my grandparents and my mother and daddy. And they did an incredible uh, they did an incredible job with that, with that story was well known all over

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town. Nice. Alright. So, and with that we'll get, when did y'all come into the picture? When were you all born? I was born in 1937, Um 40 42, the summer of 42. He doesn't even know what I'm talking about. There was a movie called? The summer

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of 42. Okay. And so, and so with that we'll start with ken, since you're the older of the two, what was your personal experience growing up in Beaumont? Uh You know what was it like growing up as a jew in the south of the time? Um

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For those who may be listening and reading this at that time, the head of the ku Klux Klan in texas, its headquarters was literally right across the river from Beaumont texas. What was the name of the town again, ken Vidor. Alright. Yeah, so in Vidor texas,

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right across the river. So yeah. So what was your experience growing up jewish in Beaumont texas at this time? You know I had a very good experience. We were traditional jews. Um At that time Beaumont had two synagogues. Uh the temple which was reformed and cole

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Israel congregation which was very traditional. We even had a balcony for the women to sit in. Uh so there were separate seatings um But I went to school, public school until it was out and then I walked to Hebrew school later until about six o'clock learning

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uh my ah live bait, most of which I had been taught by my grandfather in the back of the store because we didn't have a rabbi until I was 12. And so At the end of the day, 6:00 or so um since uh the synagogue was

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not far from the downtown. I would walk from the synagogue to downtown. And stay in the store until the family would take me home. But I never experienced any overt anti Semitism. We were all, it was, it was a community of immigrants, Lebanese greek, italian and

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jews and we all seem to get along well. Do you feel that diversity in the neighborhood, you feel that helps? Uh, you know, kind of stem any sort of personal prejudice that may be against you? You know, since you weren't seeing like really is the only

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minority group in town. I think that helps. Yes. I think you get to know people for who they are one of our neighbors, uh, in, in, on College Street was of italian descent and I remember that the patriarch of that family used to grow snails, uh,

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and snails that you eat, you know, not that you, uh, kill and so we learned that there were different people of different ethnic backgrounds and everyone seemed to get along no air conditioning, windows open, no fences, practically in the yards. So we were all together most

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of the time. It's very good to know actually. And it's very, you know, it's very good to know that there are communities like that, you know, throughout the south where um, you know, where it wasn't just your stereotypical, you know, anyone who wasn't a white anglo

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Saxon protestant standing, you know, basically had to hide away. It's good to know that there were communities that were well connected. Remember there was a common friend in those days and that was the second World War because everybody, everybody had family members who were overseas or

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in the army, navy or Air Force. It didn't make any difference whether you were white or or italian or black even or jewish. We all had that common thread that was really helpful. Also was also during the time of the Depression too, was a little bit

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before that, but that also provided a common thread. People were they come together because they needed each other and uh and that kind of surpassed all other issues, I think. Uh huh. Now ken uh you actually had a very in depth experience with athleticism. Can you

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tell us your athletic background? Uh whilst you were in Beaumont? Um my family was, our family was very athletic. My my dad was a great tennis player and uh everybody played golf and I just matriculated to the courts and the basketball courts because he played outdoors.

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The courts were dirt or mud and uh everybody seems to want to help you if you were just getting started. Um And when I went to high school, when I was in junior high school, I didn't even make the a basketball team, I made the b

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basketball team and I didn't even get into any games the whole three years. I was in what is now called middle school when I went to high school as a freshman, as 1/9 grader, I was five ft tall and weighed £90 And uh didn't make the

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freshman team, but was always trying by the time I was a sophomore had grown eight and uh that made a big difference. My grandfather was nice enough to let me put a basketball hoop in our backyard and he would shoot with me. Uh he would shoot

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underhanded and I learned to play on the outdoor court in our backyard. Um but then as a sophomore in high school, I actually made the B team and was a starter and then as a junior and a senior, um you know, I was an outstanding basketball

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player for that team. Both my Arnie Salzman and I were starters on that team. Um and both played well. Both went to college to play basketball. Uh He went to Lamar, I went to the University of texas. Nice. Uh you know, just like one more question,

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just, you know, just to talk about just the views back in the time. I mean, I know today and to my knowledge, I mean, for the longest time in us history and us culture, you know, there's very much a stereotype that jews were like unathletic where

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there was there any, was there any like, you know, like even just like maybe offhanded comments, you might have heard uh you know, like growing up, you know, like people perhaps perhaps like surprised or maybe even like just raised a bit of an eyebrow, you know,

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hearing that there was, you know, a jewish athlete, you know, who's doing well as you experience that at all or was that not really? You know, the view that was held back then, I didn't experience at all both of the coaches in high school graduates of

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Baylor and uh they were very, very staunch baptist, but, but they all gave you an equal chance and I remember that between my junior and senior year, I was on a pilgrimage to Israel and my coach encouraged me to go, he said, you need to go,

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you need to learn about your heritage and to this day, I think he's still living, was 100 and one who lives here in Houston and I am in contact with him and they were wonderful, wonderful people. In fact his wife would pick up my parents and

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take him to the games uh, and became very good friends. So I didn't experience any of that at all. That's very good to know. Alright, moving on to a net, what was your general experience growing up in Houston? Both just as a jew, but also, you

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know, some of the, some of the big events of your life back then, it was very similar to Kenny's experience and that I didn't experience any overt antisemitism at all. And I think that I was taught, you know, you can't, they can't count you absent for

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a jewish holiday And I can remember raising my hand in elementary school and saying I'm not gonna be here for the next two days and you cannot count me absent and they just said okay we know, you know, and so it was you know, nobody um

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if I was denied anything because of the fact that I was jewish, I was not aware of it and I certainly was able to um to advance in every way without ever being um you know, set aside because of one thing or another. And the the

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first time I ever performed in public I was eight years old in my elementary school and I can remember it like it was yesterday because I forgot every word to the song. But um and from then on, you know, I was every time there was a

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program or whatever I was asked to participate in it. No, I I had a very nurturing um upbringing. I was not allowed to blame anybody but myself for anything that didn't happen. That's very good. I like that. Uh So you were a part of a group

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called the Melody Maidens. Maids Melody Melody made the Melody. Maids were a group that was started by a woman in Beaumont, Eloise Millen and they performed at military installations, so similar to the U. S. So we didn't get paid. So it was volunteer. And uh I

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started with that group and what they called the Junior Melody Maids at about 11. But when I was 12 I went into the senior group well before I should have been allowed to go in and was traveling with them. My first trip with the Melody Maids,

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I was 12 years old and I can remember my mother signing a release because I was, they weren't supposed to take me until I was 16 on military aircraft, but I went with them for the first time. We did a tour around the United States, two

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Air Force bases. Um, and after that we were gone. It was not unusual to get a call on a Wednesday. We're going to Fort polk or were going to a ford Hood. Fort polk was in Louisiana. We're going to ford Hood where any place that was

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around this area where weekend trips would get on a bus, they'd send a plane for us. Sometimes we get on a train. I can remember leaving Beaumont in the middle of a hurricane one time that my dad, my dad was walking me to the train against

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the wind, it was a tear. It was one of the hurricanes that came through and really demolished. Um, one of the towns in Louisiana. It was gone. Uh Carly. Yeah and uh I was already probably 15 at that point but we got on the train to

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get out of town and then we got to Houston or san Antone someplace and got on a plane, the military plane and went where we were going. So I did that until the time I was 18 and we traveled um, the world, I mean we traveled

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all over the place. The only big trip that I didn't take was the trip to the far east because that was the, the time that Kenny got married and I wanted to be here for his wedding. You weren't the only jewish girl. No, I was not

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the only jewish. There was another jewish girl uh, in Melody made, she was older than me. She was, her brother was a friend of Kenny's as well. And uh, she was in Melody Maids when I got in. I don't remember that she traveled as much as

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I did and I don't know why. I don't, but that doesn't mean she didn't, Yes. What was your favorite place you performed at? You know, they were, well, Disneyland was, was big. I remember that one very well because it was the year that Disneyland opened. And

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so we were, we had a trip to the west coast and we were brought in to perform in the gazebo as you walk into the entry of Disneyland, we performed there. But we also did on that same trip. We went to several um, they had what

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they called um, sites that just the, that men, the servicemen were stationed there for six months at a time and we would go there and they were just on the lookout for anything that was foreign in the sky. And uh I took a we had we

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all took a boat ride to uh not tugboat but u boat ride to one of the sites and that was kind of a horrifying experience. But we got off, everybody was sick. We got off, we performed, we got back on, we all got sick, we came

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back, you know we performed, we performed three or four shows a day. Um It was it was a big deal awesome. Uh and so it kind of just to round out your early years in Beaumont. Um So the history of jewish history, especially in extreme southeast

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texas around that area um you know they're I mean obviously there's the two communities in Beaumont at the time but there were also communities like saying Orange and Port Arthur were the communities in Beaumont. Were they really involved with the communities in the surrounding areas? Or

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No it depended because we had young idea was very strong in Beaumont. Which youth scientist organization. Um Our mother was a youth commission chair when we were growing up and uh we have many kids from Port Arthur that were part of the of young Shadia. I

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don't know about. I don't remember Orange, I don't remember anyone specifically from Orange but I do from Port Arthur. Many of those were part of young lady. A young, she was very large. I don't think that many of the, if any of the temple people did

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that. They had um Toftir I think. But young Judaea was quite large and and we we didn't, we went to all the meetings and it was very much an involved part of our lives. But you should know that in our family which um as I look

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back, I can say that they earned a meager living out of that store which had to um support I guess 77 people. And we have as a first cousin whose parents were a part of that. And we all went to college and we all had piano

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lessons and dance lessons and voice lessons and all the things trumpet lessons that that we wanted in our lives and never knew that, you know, it was an issue for anybody, but I think that it was very important that we be um affiliated and associated with

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all of the jewish entity. So when it was time for somebody to be the chair of the United jewish appeal, if it was my grandfather's turn or my daddy's turn and my uncles turn, they just did it. Nobody said no we can't. And my mother, it

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was involved in uh she did that as well. And there was Ferguson and there was what they called Mr Rocky at the time it's now called a meet women. There has been a breath, not been a breath women but been a breath and all of those

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organizations were part and parcel of our household as well as a commitment to supporting the synagogue. So nobody spoke about the dues were too high or whatever it was, whatever they needed, they managed to do because it was a priority. Good, very nice. Alright. So we're

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gonna be moving on to our next section, We're gonna be talking about y'all's time at the university of texas again, we'll start with ken just off of seniority. Uh so first off, why did you choose to attend college at the University of texas at Austin? It

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was a really after thought I had a scholarship offer to Tulane and had a academic scholarship offer to johns Hopkins. And until the last minute, um I really wanted to go to johns Hopkins because I thought, boy, that would be really great. Um folks sat down

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and talked to me about it. He said, you know, it's cold up there, it snows. Um we won't get to see, you'll have to have a whole new wardrobe. Um The academic scholarship only was for tuition and books. So that meant having to have a place

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to live and eat. And uh, I was suggested that I not go too too late if I wanted to practice dentistry in texas because in those days you had a better chance of getting into a texas school, post graduate school if you were actually graduated from

00:24:16.080 - 00:24:33.690

an undergraduate school in texas because they were all state colleges. So the last minute I decided okay I could go to texas tuition is only, I think it was $25 a semester. And because we were residents um there was no uh there was no test to

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take um no S. A. T. S. Um I got in the car with three other guys, five other guys from southeast texas and drove to Austin for rush week and that's how I got it, I got there Nice. And uh and whilst you were at ut

00:24:50.850 - 00:25:07.720

you continued your athletic career and actually played basketball for the basketball team, how did you get involved in that? How did that look? Um I was a walk on and there were so many of us that there were six scholarships given at that year to texas.

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Basketball wasn't really the sport in texas, it's still probably not, but in those days there were six scholarships given one scholarship was given to a young man in Port Arthur. He never played for the University of texas, he's got a knife fight and he was kicked

00:25:27.220 - 00:25:45.210

out of school his freshman year before the season started. Um there were 100 and 50 of us on the stage, which was the at Gregory gym, which was the place where the freshmen came, Freshmen weren't eligible for the varsity in those days, so there were 100

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and 50 of us trying to fill out the rest of the freshman team and uh I made the freshman team without any trouble between the starter. Um And we had a great freshman team. We only lost one game. Uh We split with rice. Um and that

00:26:02.380 - 00:26:18.770

was the only game we lost all you Very nice now. So and can you refresh my memory of what years did you go to ut again, 1954, Okay. So about that time, that was about the height um of when a lot of universities they were starting

00:26:18.780 - 00:26:35.080

to integrate, you know, desegregate, I know that university of Texas at that time wasn't integrated. Did you play against any sort of like integrated teams? I mean, I know in the late 19 fifties there was a very infamous moments with the football team playing Syracuse where

00:26:35.080 - 00:26:51.430

a brawl happened with them, you know, playing an integrated team, did anything like that. Or even even just like talk of stuff like that. Did that ever happen on the basketball team? Mostly were there? It never did. We were used to a lot and I remember

00:26:51.430 - 00:27:07.980

one trip we made to the west coast, we went to play Oregon and Oregon state and then we went down to san Francisco and while we were in Oregon, there was a black in the, in the entire tournament, there was a black player from Pepperdine. We

00:27:07.980 - 00:27:25.420

didn't play against Pepperdine, but we all were there and we watched them and we were enthralled by their athletic ability, but I can't tell you that we were ever talked about it. Nobody ever mentioned it. Nobody ever said we're not gonna play against you athletes are

00:27:25.420 - 00:27:40.740

real strange in that respect. You know, if you can play, it doesn't really matter what color you are. And I would say that in football it was a little different. And that incident that you're talking about against Syracuse happened later. I was already out of school

00:27:40.740 - 00:27:58.070

in dental school. Um, So I can't say that it was ever a factor in the discussions that we had in the talks that we uh, we had during the games, we were so busy trying to play and win that we really didn't care about that sort

00:27:58.070 - 00:28:11.460

of thing. That's great to hear. And uh, and kind of expand on, you know, you know, just, you know, just a question on being a jewish athlete in high school. Did you feel there was anything that gave you a bit of a different experience being a

00:28:11.460 - 00:28:25.180

jewish athlete in college? Or do you feel that, you know, that it really wasn't an influential factor and that basically whilst on the team, you know, people just saw you just as a fellow athlete, I can honestly say that they only thought of me as a

00:28:25.180 - 00:28:45.100

fellow athlete. I do recall. Um I came to Beaumont uh, between my freshman and sophomore years and I was watching the high school baseball in play and my college coach who had, I mean, my high school coach who had since become um athletic director of the

00:28:45.100 - 00:29:00.050

schools in Beaumont, asked me if I was going to play on the varsity at texas, and I said, well I'm gonna try. And he looked at me and he said, what do you mean you're gonna try? He said, you either are or you aren't, and I

00:29:00.050 - 00:29:15.740

said, well then I am, and so that was the kind of attitude we had and was instilled upon us, whether you were jewish or non jewish was never mentioned. And so I went on to a letter both both years when I was on the varsity, I

00:29:15.740 - 00:29:36.510

left at the end of my third year because I got accepted to, and I get to my next question actually, uh why did you choose dentistry? Um of all fields? Um My aforementioned friend that I met mentioned um was the son of a physician and uh

00:29:36.520 - 00:29:56.840

dr Kaplan used to take George and myself uh to the hospital and we would scrub with his surgeries where nobody would do that anymore. Uh and so I scrubbed with surgery because I was seriously considering medical school. Um and then I realized that I would never

00:29:56.840 - 00:30:10.800

want to leave the hospital because my patient wasn't well yet and I would be hovering over them. So I said, you know, I don't think I want to do this. And the next best thing was demonstrate because I was good with my hands. My dad was

00:30:10.810 - 00:30:27.720

a woodworker and could do anything with his hands and that's why I chose dentistry, considered medicine after that. Very nice. All right now moving to a net now I will have some questions for both. Feel about your time in UTC. But I do want to talk

00:30:27.730 - 00:30:42.600

about the nets. Uh, you know, both tourists watching went to UT unless you did a UTI. So why did you choose to go to university of texas at Austin? Well, I had a scholarship offer to a music college Centenary. I'm not sure it's even there anymore

00:30:42.600 - 00:31:00.480

in Louisiana industry and my mother looked at me and she said there are no jewish people at Centenary, so scratch that. So, um, I went to UT and like with Kenny, they were just beginning to do college entrance, but it wasn't, if you had a great

00:31:00.480 - 00:31:19.500

point average, that was good enough you didn't have to take it. So I just, I went up there with my mother before school started and to speak to the Dean of Fine Arts College. And and he told me and he asked me about my, you know,

00:31:19.500 - 00:31:39.470

performing experience and the kinds of teacher that I had had and he suggested that I auditioned for a teacher that was teaching there by the name of josephine Lucas Donato. So as Josephine Luke, Casey Donato had had a 20 year career with New York City opera

00:31:39.480 - 00:32:01.190

and he felt I'd be best suited to be with her audition for her. Shelly took six students and I was able to, she accepted me and I studied with her for three years. My plan was to uh go to uh to finish school in three years

00:32:01.190 - 00:32:16.140

instead of four because I wanted to go to new york and pursue a career in opera. In the meantime I I pledged to jewish sorority. I made a lot of friends. I met, Larry was one of the first people that I met there and by the

00:32:16.140 - 00:32:34.410

time I got to the third year um I had been to study with her over the summer and realized that she lived in this big beautiful mansion in san Antonio, but it was just she and her then husband who had been a groupie for her while

00:32:34.410 - 00:32:54.850

she was performing and her husband died, which who was her manager Donato. And when her husband died, she she retired from performing and came home and her groupie husband followed her home and she married him. And that's when she began teaching at the University of texas.

00:32:54.850 - 00:33:12.540

And I walked through this big, beautiful home with ceiling to floor portraits of her as you Lucia and as the aleta and all of these stores from opera and two little dogs. And I realized that that's really not was not what I wanted. And in those

00:33:12.540 - 00:33:28.970

days it would have been very difficult to have a family and be a woman and be a part of any kind of real operatic career, any kind of career that would take you away from home. So I called my husband and I said guess what? We

00:33:28.970 - 00:33:45.350

can get engaged? And so we did and that was that and that's um that's how I ended up not pursuing it any further and I've never looked back and I think I made the right voice very nice. Uh now this question is for both of you

00:33:45.350 - 00:34:01.210

whilst at ut um what was the jewish culture on campus at the time? And was there like a jewish student union? Was there like a lot of opportunity for jews that had like a community on campus or were there school sponsored events per se for jewish.

00:34:01.410 - 00:34:22.410

Remember there were jewish fraternities and sororities and nobody at that time, if you weren't jewish, you didn't pledge a jewish fraternity or sorority that came after. And so that was the jewish community on campus, there was a Hillel, I can remember going to the Hillel, there

00:34:22.410 - 00:34:42.370

were synagogues, we went to the synagogue when we wanted to um I think during, you know, during Passover and things like that, the fraternity and sorority houses provide, made sure there was matzo and meals for kids that wanted it, it was much more, you know, part

00:34:42.370 - 00:35:07.640

of our daily lives from my experience and and uh we didn't, you didn't need like a jewish student union because we were in effect a jewish student union with all of the, in the greek uh communities of jewish fraternity and sororities. There were four jewish fraternities

00:35:07.640 - 00:35:30.000

and I believe three sororities when I came to school and it was always a fight uh for each between the fraternities to get all of the jewish students, uh men's, two male students that wanted to pledge and almost everybody did um fraternity that I pledge had

00:35:30.000 - 00:35:51.790

an active part in the community of the university. Um They were the very smart guys. Um we retired the scholastic cut given by the university to the fraternity that had the highest scholastic average of all the fraternities in the school, we wanted three years in a

00:35:51.790 - 00:36:14.870

row and we retired. Um and in addition to that there was inter mural uh and we all competed in intramurals throughout the, throughout the school. Um I was a member of the all intramural fast pitch softball team. Um I was runner up in uh golf, doubles,

00:36:14.870 - 00:36:38.700

golf, and and and the the uh my partner was also from our fraternity, so we had a great, great um jewish upgrading and uh and we got to commune with everybody who was jewish after all, we had formals and dances and get togethers and uh I

00:36:38.710 - 00:36:58.750

can't say that we lacked in jewishness. Um there was plenty of beauty to be jewish with. Yeah, well the girls participated in the murals too, I kind of forgot about that. We did football. We did um I don't know whatever they offered for the girls to

00:36:58.750 - 00:37:18.350

do but um we did but I don't remember that we played any sororities that were not jewish, we competed against each other in my memory. Um My husband just wrote me a note, he says there was a jewish student body president at the university um which

00:37:18.350 - 00:37:40.410

I didn't remember. In addition, he said there were uh there were cowboys which they still have which was a um special group of people and uh silver uh Yeah and so uh silver spurs and there were many jewish uh members and those, but I don't think

00:37:40.410 - 00:37:58.510

that women had any of that, it was just the guys that did, but there was a jewish student body president, what was his name? Larry, do you remember he left, I don't remember his name. There was also in texas. When I was at school, a student

00:37:58.510 - 00:38:21.940

Supreme Court and the Chief justice of the Student Supreme court was Arnold Sweet who was a member of the jewish fraternity right that I will tell you the only um the only time that I was, it wasn't true blatant antisemitism was like an under tone but

00:38:21.940 - 00:38:45.030

they used to have this, I'm sure they don't do it anymore, but they have a um most beautiful girl on campus and that kind of thing and the fraternities and sororities would nominate um someone to participate in that and I can remember being interviewed by um,

00:38:46.040 - 00:39:06.270

and uh, maybe it was one of the cowboys, non jewish cowboys and they asked one of the questions they asked was, do you read any, do you read what books do you like? And not long before that the book exodus had come out. And so I

00:39:06.270 - 00:39:23.740

said, well, I just, I just finished exodus and I found it, you know, inspirational and educational etcetera. And his comment was, well, yeah, you people read that. And that was, and even then as little exposure that I had to any of that, it made me look

00:39:23.740 - 00:39:41.410

at him kind of weird. You know, it was like, wow, where did that come from? So I'm not telling you that it wasn't there, but we didn't come in contact with it because quite honestly, we were mostly segregated into our own community except for classes and

00:39:41.420 - 00:40:02.970

in classes. And the, my best friend, there was a non jewish woman that sang and played the piano and we performed all the time. So, uh, in that respect, you know, I didn't see any of it, but it was just kind of an interesting thing. Yeah,

00:40:02.980 - 00:40:20.370

that's definitely an interesting observation to think of it that way that, you know, you know, the sense like the community was so like, you know, tight with each other. That that kind of shielded the community perhaps like shielded it by numbers alone. Yeah. But in school

00:40:20.380 - 00:40:36.740

in classes and things like that. No. Yeah, that's, that's, that's really interesting. So are my next question before moving on, uh that you, you kind of have answered this. But how did each one of you meet your spouses and that? Do you want to start first?

00:40:36.750 - 00:40:56.110

Since? Uh, well I had met Larry when my mother mentioned that my mother and I went up for me to meet the dean of the School of Fine arts and it just so happened that that same weekend there was a fraternity party and they were having

00:40:56.110 - 00:41:13.820

their party at the hotel that we were saying and one of his fraternity brothers was the brother of my roommate to be. And so we took that opportunity to meet each other and when he came with his sister, he said by the way he says a

00:41:13.820 - 00:41:28.600

bunch of us are down by the pool, would you like to come or I don't remember exactly where it was is, would you like to come and I went and I met my husband, I met who is today, my husband and his friend and when I

00:41:28.600 - 00:41:41.260

came back my mother said to me, did you have fun? I said, well I met one guy that never stopped talking and I met another guy that never talked and the one that never talked was my husband. And so I didn't see or hear from him

00:41:41.260 - 00:41:58.670

again, but when the night I pledged the fraternities, would they would all come to the houses because they wanted to meet, you know, the new girls in town. And uh, one of the, my sorority sisters looked at me and she said, do you know anybody here?

00:41:58.670 - 00:42:15.980

Do you want me to set you up with anybody? And just at that time he walked through the door and I said, well I know him. And so she set us up and the rest is history. Very nice, very similar. Except we were already uh at

00:42:15.980 - 00:42:38.920

the university. Barbara came from Memphis Tennessee and she was also in the same sorority that Annette later pledged in and we had a party at the fraternity house and she was there and I met her. It was very attracted to her. She was dressed like uh,

00:42:38.930 - 00:42:58.490

somebody from the West Bank of paris. And uh, I, I always said she was dressed like an Apache, but not the indian. And so uh, we started going out and then didn't see each other probably for four or five months. And then uh, she was very

00:42:58.490 - 00:43:15.740

busy. She had a lot of dates and then we uh got back together again and went through the ritual that we went through in those days. First, you went steady, then you got dropped and then you got pinned and then you got engaged and then you

00:43:15.740 - 00:43:39.470

got married and that's what we did. That was the fraternal order, the fraternal order. Uh, so, so I was already a freshman in dental school. I ended my freshman year. She graduated and when she graduated, we got married right after that 1958. Very nice. And shortly

00:43:39.470 - 00:43:53.420

after you got married. So you're already living, you were in Houston at the time going to dental school. But then shortly after that you joined the United States Air Force Ken, right, you got to remember the times the draft was in in those days. This is

00:43:53.420 - 00:44:16.900

1957-1961. And so a program was initiated by the Armed Forces where if you were in medical dental or any other post graduate school, you could volunteer for the draft while you were in school. You signed up. If you volunteered, you got your choice of service and

00:44:16.900 - 00:44:36.810

you also got what's known as time and grade for pay purposes. So that means you got three years worth of seniority as far as pay when you actually got commissioned. So I signed up um in my sophomore year and uh chose the Air Force, got the

00:44:36.810 - 00:44:57.590

Air Force. And when I graduated I got commissioned and then we we went to, I went by myself to learn how to salute in Montgomery Alabama for eight weeks, then came back through and was stationed in Roswell, New Mexico and Barbara. And I spent two years

00:44:57.590 - 00:45:19.610

in with a child with our first child. Very nice. Uh What was the name of the base in Roswell? Air Force Base. Air Force Base was a World War Two. Bass at that time it was a sac. Base B 52. Uh And there was uh it's

00:45:19.610 - 00:45:37.730

not in existence anymore. The base is no longer there. Roswell was was in the Pecos Valley is in the Pecos Valley of New Mexico. It's also the place where the Goddard Museum is. So everybody talked about extraterrestrials in those days. We didn't see any because we

00:45:37.730 - 00:45:52.760

were too busy going to the clinic and listening to the Air Force B50 to make what they call touch and goes. And it was a noisy, noisy place because we lived on the base. We had a house on the base. Very nice. And what was your

00:45:52.760 - 00:46:11.560

main role in the U. S. A. F. I was a dentist. We were, there were 10 of us. There all of us were in for two or three years. Nobody was Regular Air Force. Uh The dental clinic was away from the hospital except there was a

00:46:11.560 - 00:46:27.860

dental clinic, two chairs in the hospital. Because air Force regulations said that if you have a hospital you have to have a dentist in the hospital. So we rotated through it. Each one of us spent a month or so in that clinic. But for the most

00:46:27.860 - 00:46:45.190

part we practiced industry very nice. And uh while while you're in the USa for the time. Uh What were some of your jewish experiences especially stationed out in Roswell, New Mexico? Were there many jews out on the base at the time or were you one of

00:46:45.190 - 00:47:01.480

the only ones. And you know, how was life living out there? Especially the jewish air force meant at the time I was the only jewish dentist. There were three or four jewish positions. Um we were keeping kosher at the time and so I went to the

00:47:01.480 - 00:47:16.300

chaplain because there was no jewish chaplain on the base and I told him I needed to find a way to get kosher meat and he was so excited because he had something to do that he had never had done before in his life. He took me

00:47:16.300 - 00:47:35.600

to el paso texas. He introduced me to the culture kosher butcher there, I can still remember the name. It was called the market. And we arranged to have kosher meat sent from el paso once or twice a month to Roswell delivered to our home and uh,

00:47:35.610 - 00:47:56.090

we kept kosher there. Uh, interestingly enough, The other thing that was unusual for us, We had our own seder the first year just Barbara and I and our young son Jared, but I was invited to go to the Seder that was on the base because they

00:47:56.090 - 00:48:15.950

had imported a rabbi from Amarillo and they told me that the rabbi's name was Rabbi Solomon. So I said to him, I'm Solomon. And and the Episcopal Priest said yes, I'm Solomon? I said, well he was the man who taught me my bar mitzvah because he

00:48:15.950 - 00:48:32.630

was the rabbi hired in Beaumont when I was going to be bar mitzvahed. He had later left and gone to Amarillo. So I got to visit with him after all those years of not seeing him, we didn't go to the Seder, we had the Seder in

00:48:32.630 - 00:48:49.910

our house, but I did get a chance to visit him. Another great case of jewish geography. Uh, now, whilst you were at that air force base, a major historical events happened. Do you wish to do you want to share what that event was? Well, absolutely. It's

00:48:49.910 - 00:49:09.260

the only battle ribbon I have. So it was the Cuban missile crisis. And I remember talking to one of my classmates on sunday night on a sunday night and he said to me, he was stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in florida. And he said to

00:49:09.260 - 00:49:26.550

me, you know, I'm having trouble hearing you because there's a lot of noise going on. Lots of planes flying over lots of tanks and so later we found out they were moving all these troops to southern florida. And on monday morning is when Adlai Stevenson went

00:49:26.550 - 00:49:44.380

to the United Nations about the Cuban missile crisis. We of course in Roswell had already gone on alert and that meant that all of the crews of the B-52s had been moved into the officer's quarters and they stayed there the entire time. I don't know if

00:49:44.380 - 00:50:01.230

you know anything about sac. But in those days, the third of the planes were in the air all the time. They were eight hour flights. And now it used to be a very dull experience according to the pilots. But during those days they were flying up

00:50:01.230 - 00:50:21.090

over the Bering straits and counting all the fishing vessels that were from Russia and then coming back the pilots all had or the navigators all had um briefcases handcuffed to their wrists. And those were the orders as to what their targets were. And we stayed that

00:50:21.090 - 00:50:39.560

way for six weeks until the crisis was over. Wow I called my folks and said are you concerned? And they said no what's going on? We're not concerned at all. I said well we're on alert. You know can't get on the base without showing your your

00:50:39.560 - 00:50:59.000

I. D. And that was something new for us. That's absolutely incredible. Uh So moving on to a net. So you, so your husband joined the US army. Was that directly after college Or was it kind of a similar? No but it was similar but not the

00:50:59.000 - 00:51:22.120

same because he was able to go into ROTC which allowed him to go into the army as a commissioned officer. And so non commissioned it was a commissioned officer. And so he he completed ROTC while he was at the university of texas. And when he graduated

00:51:22.120 - 00:51:42.650

he was he was given his second lieutenant bars and we were then assigned 68 months later to to go to Germany. There was a huge contingency of of U. S. Army in Germany at the time and of course I was hoping to be stationed in san

00:51:42.650 - 00:52:06.110

Antonio so I could continue voice lessons. But that didn't happen. And uh we went to Germany our parents were not that excited but for us it was just another adventure. And we were stationed in a outside of Schweinfurt. And Schweinfurt was notorious for being the first

00:52:06.120 - 00:52:27.120

inland air strike that the United States arming air force made during World War two. So it had been completely and totally leveled During the war. They had ball bearing factories there and we were stationed at that in that city. And when we came there we were

00:52:27.120 - 00:52:44.700

stunned to see that had been completely rebuilt in the 20 years that had passed. You wouldn't have known that there had ever been a war. There there were a few Jewish families that had returned, but for the most part not that many. And we lived in

00:52:44.710 - 00:53:05.860

a, we could, there were so many um soldiers there, so many army army personnel that we couldn't find housing in the city or on the base. So we lived in a farming community called Hombach which was about 15 miles away and so larry had to commute

00:53:05.860 - 00:53:25.280

both ways. We had no telephone because they didn't have telephone wires out there. He was never called for an alert or any, they couldn't reach him and uh I couldn't call him if I needed him. Um it was very rural and uh in fact our landlady

00:53:25.290 - 00:53:47.070

and her husband were probably Kenny and barbers age about five years. Our senior um their parents had came from another small town that where there were several uh soldiers who had been at the camps and she used to talk to me about it all the time.

00:53:47.260 - 00:54:05.700

Her mother would come and she would say all we know is they would come home and cry all night long, they could hear them crying. So I think that the the those farmers and people that lived in those communities were dimly aware of what was going

00:54:05.700 - 00:54:22.670

on unless you had a direct um connection to you were the husband of the father of somebody like that who worked in those camps. But you know what? That you heard them crying, most of them said to me, I've never seen a jew before, they didn't

00:54:22.670 - 00:54:38.500

know even that, you know what we would look like. And we had a friend that did live in the city, her husband was a physician and her landlady was a part of Hitler youth and she used to tell her they would say to her, how could

00:54:38.500 - 00:54:55.330

you do that? And she would say because we were afraid that if we didn't do it we'd come home and our parents would be gone too. So that was that was kind of their life whether it was 100% true or not. 100% true. I don't know.

00:54:55.340 - 00:55:19.400

But overtly, I mean we came and went, we never felt any fear. Um we had services. Our eldest daughter was born in Germany um two almost two not quite a few months before we came. Um and she was born you know in an army base american

00:55:19.400 - 00:55:32.450

citizen. No problem. But and you know thank God she was a girl so we didn't have to worry about a breast or anything like that. But we had you know, we could fly somebody in from Munich and there were the plans were in place if we

00:55:32.450 - 00:55:53.950

needed it. But uh it was a very um Interesting experience for us as a young. I mean we were you know 21 years old when we went we were young, we went there. So um or maybe just I was just, I was 22 when we got

00:55:53.950 - 00:56:15.380

there and Larry was 22 right before we left. So we were we were not so worldly and but you know what it was, it ended up being an exceptional kind of experience. I will tell you that my husband was in charge of the commissary and the

00:56:15.380 - 00:56:37.300

movie theater and the distribution center that gave food to the sort of that supplied food to the service people in the commissary working for him were to farmer nazis. Huh? So that there were most of them that were there had been in the army but these

00:56:37.300 - 00:56:54.760

two were kind of in a little higher positions and after he'd been there about eight months he came home one day and he said I never see any paperwork. I don't know what's going on. So he goes back the next day and he says I have

00:56:54.760 - 00:57:11.710

to see what are you ordering? How are you ordering it? I need to know what's happening. And the next day they all left. And as it turns out they were stealing from the army to the tune of about $10,000. Which to us was you know monumental

00:57:11.720 - 00:57:30.590

at the time and Larry's name was on the dotted line. So we were afraid he was going to 11 ones. But uh they the army sent somebody in to figure it out and to help us. But at that time I had been teaching school uh in

00:57:30.590 - 00:57:49.920

the for the servicemen had been their kids. And then I taught students to uh servicemen who wanted to get their G. E. D. And in addition to that I was coming into the commissary after after my work and helping him with the books. We bring him

00:57:49.920 - 00:58:08.140

home at night. Nobody touched him but us after that. So it was until uh they sent him a sergeant that he could trust who was about. We thought he was old. It was probably 45 and Larry was 23 so he called Larry the old man. But

00:58:08.140 - 00:58:26.510

anyway uh we got out of that jam but it was a lesson. Yeah and you know, and whilst and whilst you're over there, I mean obviously, I mean I can, I can only imagine uh you know what it would have felt like. I mean, meeting somebody

00:58:26.510 - 00:58:37.200

who was a former member of the Nazi party. I mean especially in the world that we all grew up in um I mean what was, I mean like like what what do you think? Was there any like big like change of perception that you had like

00:58:37.200 - 00:58:54.980

towards the war? I mean, meeting these former members perception? Okay. No, because mars far and when it's over it's over. But no, I don't think they were gestapo um but I think they were a part of the they were a part of the war and they

00:58:54.980 - 00:59:12.290

were nazis because everybody had to be a nazi. So as far as I know, they weren't those people that worked for Larry and those in the commissary were not um gestapo members that were at the camps that I don't think. But you know, we they looked

00:59:12.290 - 00:59:27.550

at us, they didn't know a jew, they'd never known and you at least they didn't admit to it. I think that you know that's extremely interesting. I mean you know just, I mean I mean just like being in that position, especially, I mean especially as an

00:59:27.550 - 00:59:41.680

american jew, you know who was alive, both during the war. But I mean you also just like so close uh you know obviously just to the aftermath. I mean it was very very nursing. Thank you for sharing that. Um Moving on. What led you both to

00:59:41.680 - 01:00:00.390

move back you know to move to Houston following all that? Do you want to start sure when we got out of the military um we were going to look for a place to open practice and Barbara being from Memphis. Her parents wanted us to come to

01:00:00.390 - 01:00:21.570

Memphis and my parents from Beaumont wanted us to come to Beaumont. We both decided we weren't gonna go either place because she didn't like Beaumont and I wasn't enthralled with Memphis but I did promise her and I did take and passed the Tennessee uh dental board.

01:00:21.580 - 01:00:45.170

So I always had that possibility. Barbara had an aunt that lived in Houston and her grandfather is actually buried here. He died in Houston. Uh So they had a lot of uh com Houston had a lot of commonality for both of us and it was growing,

01:00:45.170 - 01:01:02.480

you know it was a great town economically and so we both decided we would come to Houston and that's how we got here and we'll of course Larry was from Houston. So there wasn't really a question. He had a family business to go into. So and

01:01:02.480 - 01:01:16.120

Kenny and Barbara here. So it was you know it was easy, we came here and I always to me it was almost like being in Beaumont. We were very close in proximity. Wasn't that big a deal to drive there for my folks to come here and

01:01:16.120 - 01:01:34.980

pick. And so um and we've been away really far away. So this was nothing, you know, and we we came here and um and we're and have been here ever since. He went right into his family business and uh he worked there. I worked there. Yeah,

01:01:34.990 - 01:01:51.740

we all worked there. Very nice. What does y'all's personal lives look like? I mean, how did y'all, how did your work look? You know what I mean? Like what sort of communities did you immediately get into, ken if you want to start with yours? Um Yes,

01:01:51.740 - 01:02:14.550

when we got here, uh Barbara was pregnant with our second child. Uh and unfortunately she lost the baby. So I had to find a place to work because she was recovering when she lost the baby. Um She contracted hepatitis in the hospital from a transfusion in

01:02:14.560 - 01:02:32.370

those days. It was called serum hepatitis. And so she was bedridden and I had to find a place start living. So I went to work. I took the place of one of my classmates at a dental practice on the north side of Houston. Uh They were

01:02:32.370 - 01:02:53.460

wonderful people. The Rose in bloom brothers, they had a great practice and they were very accepted. Um um And I stayed there for a year and I taught in dental school for half a day a week. Uh And that's how I made ends meet. Uh It

01:02:53.460 - 01:03:12.080

wasn't long before I started looking for a place to practice. Um I found a place that was it was growing in those days. Uh It was a shopping center uh on chimney rock and south braise would in fact chimney south grades would end ended at chimney

01:03:12.080 - 01:03:32.420

rock. Then that was all part of the Fondren ranch. And so I was able to get a place there. Uh The the shopping center was owned by a jewish man. Um I'll never forget Mr Levy. He was uh owner of the rice food markets and they

01:03:32.420 - 01:03:51.160

had a rice food market in that shopping center and the landlord wouldn't rent to me unless Mr Levy gave his gave his uh okay because he didn't he wanted he wanted tenants that would draw traffic. And so I went to see mr Levy, He was in

01:03:51.160 - 01:04:07.890

the hospital unfortunately, he was so nice. He said absolutely you can rent there, you won't have any trouble. He called the landlord. And sure enough that's where I started my practice and I worked part time at the practice on the north side and slowly built up

01:04:07.890 - 01:04:29.490

a practice. Um It took probably four or five years. But we we were doing fine as far as we were concerned we were able to put food on the table and Barbara got better. Um I will never forget always remember november the 22nd, 1963 because that's

01:04:29.490 - 01:04:54.230

the date we lost the baby. And that's the day Kennedy was assassinated. And the next morning we were in the hospital room and we watched on television as um Jack ruby shot Oswald. That's how we started in Houston. Very, very emotional start very much, wow, thank

01:04:54.230 - 01:05:08.190

you for sharing Annette, how's your first house, your first days in Houston? Look and what your personal life look like. Well, we got off the plane from Germany and my father in law came to Larry and he said, our workers want to unionize and you have

01:05:08.190 - 01:05:30.770

to represent the, the company in the union meetings so that he went almost directly from one thing to the other. And it was a great learning experience. We had um a child, a young child, our eldest daughter. And uh, we found a place to live. Um

01:05:30.780 - 01:05:44.770

Barbara, my sister in law. Barbara came to me and she said, okay, we're gonna go to Hadassah meeting. I went, all right. She said, you gotta buy lunch. I went okay. Then another week later comes by. She says, we're going to a sisterhood meeting and went,

01:05:44.770 - 01:06:01.810

okay. So she took me there and I did the same thing and we started going and she was like, don't lose your ticket because then you won't be able to eat. So that was, that's how I got involved in the, in the beginnings in the jewish

01:06:01.810 - 01:06:21.820

community. And in those days I wasn't working outside the home at that point. So I was willing to volunteer and I would make phone calls or whatever they needed me to do. And after, you know, a few years we had three Children and when by the

01:06:21.820 - 01:06:40.490

time they went and got into uh school and they were all in school at the same time by then then I started going to our office and I was working in the book keep department there. I was always taught about that time. I was invited to

01:06:40.490 - 01:07:00.480

teach for him about mr students which I did. Um We had a young rabbi. I'm sure you've met him Jack Siegel. He was young at the time and he got me involved. He he told me he wanted me to chant from the Torah and which I

01:07:00.480 - 01:07:18.320

did and we got all kinds of nasty phone calls from people who thought that wasn't the thing for a girl to do. Um But I I think that I must have been the first, maybe the second, but I really think I was the first one in

01:07:18.320 - 01:07:36.060

the United States to chant from the Torah. Um It just wasn't done. There were too many people that thought there were you know that it was stigmatized, you couldn't do it for various reasons. Um And I remember 11 man came to see him whose father was

01:07:36.060 - 01:07:48.530

a rabbi and he sat on our board and he came to see him and he was not very nice to him? And he said, you can't do that and that's a Shonda and this and that, and he, Rabbi Segal very wisely said, I'll tell you what,

01:07:49.810 - 01:08:03.590

you go find it, end the tour where it says it's forbidden because I must have missed that part and bring it to me. And that was the end of him. We never heard from him again. And of course, since then, we've had other ball tours and

01:08:03.590 - 01:08:22.600

I wasn't the ball tour, but I did chant from the tour. I talked more about mr students, I taught in the day school, volunteered in the day school. I've almost every level at beth you sure, And I've either been a professional or volunteer. Uh, Yeah, yeah,

01:08:22.610 - 01:08:38.850

it's very interesting that you bring up, you know, that you were chanting of the Torah. Uh, there's definitely a theme in southern jewish history in particular, you know, being uh, being very progressive when it comes to female leadership in synagogues. I mean, I'm sure both of,

01:08:38.850 - 01:08:53.380

you know, the first female rabbi in the United States, I mean, what, they weren't in new york California, they were in Mississippi out of all places, you know, and and you and you see this as like a very common thread now, whenever you first started chanting

01:08:53.380 - 01:09:05.300

Torah about how long you said there was a few negative reactions to it about how long do those negative reactions, I mean, was it basically just kind of like a quick blow up and then people got over themselves or was it, I think it was a

01:09:05.300 - 01:09:25.010

quick blow up and people got over themselves and you know, nobody died and so it was fine. You know, the nothing, the walls didn't come tumbling down and nothing happened and people just, they got over it, they got over it and we were progressive congregation anyway,

01:09:25.020 - 01:09:46.450

we had, we had an organ when I lived here, there was an organist and that is, you know, was not done in traditional services, conservative, conservative traditional services at all, but we did because the population here wanted it and I think a lot of this is

01:09:46.460 - 01:10:06.030

um, was driven by societal demands. So as you look, there weren't as many of us. So sometimes it had to be a woman because, but to this day, I mean I can't, I can't even in the chapel and beth you sure they won't allow me to

01:10:06.030 - 01:10:24.990

do that. They joke about it. But even though I sat on, I stood on the pulpit and led high Holy Day services there for 45 years. I couldn't dobbin in the, they wouldn't let me dobbin in the chapel. So that rule is hard and fast in

01:10:24.990 - 01:10:43.870

their before we move on, ken, can you give us a little bit of a background of how you came to be at beth insurance uh when we came to Houston, it was just before the High Holy Days and we were living in an apartment and I

01:10:43.870 - 01:11:02.610

went to, because we were traditional, both Barbara and I had come from Orthodox families. So I went to the Orthodox synagogue and asked them if I could uh come to the services for the High Holy Days and we said no you can't come unless you buy

01:11:02.610 - 01:11:21.610

a year's membership and uh was in any position to do that. So a friend of mine offered to take me to beth you sure in for the holidays as as his guest and so he and his wife took me and Barbara was still in bed, she

01:11:21.610 - 01:11:37.020

couldn't go. So I went to the High Holy Day services in Matthew sure in uh, they were very nice. Uh, I talked to him about becoming a member. I saw that they had Orthodox chapel as well and I thought to myself, you know, they're not a

01:11:37.020 - 01:11:56.040

lot nicer to me, so we're gonna join here. I went to Barbara, she was, she was okay with that because it really was where her aunt went to synagogue. And so that's how we joined. I will tell you that when we started that alternative service that

01:11:56.050 - 01:12:18.770

I led Kenny was my goodbye for all the years that I did it. And the chauffeur blower. Um, I think that we were just so at home with services even though in our little Orthodox congregation in Beaumont, I knew the service. My grandfather made sure I

01:12:18.770 - 01:12:38.760

knew the service, but I couldn't get on the pulpit to chant the service, had to stand down to chant the service. Um, we were comfortable with that. We thought we saw it as an obligation and an honor, which I think that unfortunately that's, I think that's

01:12:38.760 - 01:12:57.770

gone a lot of it is just because people just don't know, I think they just don't know, they're not comfortable with it. It's been a big concern of mine uh, in teaching. Um, been a breath bene mitzvah students that their level of knowledge is lacking and

01:12:57.780 - 01:13:16.820

um, uh, I'm hoping that that will make kind of a turn back. But part of the reason I think that uh, in a congregation, it was in the fifties and sixties well, Larry and I came here was, we got married in 63 we were back here

01:13:16.820 - 01:13:36.030

after Germany in 66. And um, I think that, you know, it was just a different field. They wanted the rabbi at the front of the room and the congregation responded. It was very church like actually was more like that than it was the old obtaining and

01:13:36.030 - 01:14:03.150

that may have had to do with this decision to move away from old school, old world traditions and be something different. But what that brought with it was this uhm inability, um, I'm sorry, was this inability of people to um, to learn and to know what

01:14:03.150 - 01:14:18.530

to do because they didn't stand next to their father and learn how to dolphin or their mother and learn how to daven. They just didn't do it. Exactly. So, um, so other than the moments that you all have told, what are some of the biggest standout

01:14:18.530 - 01:14:43.520

moments that you experienced while that uh, ken if you want to start. Um, I think one of the big moments for me was uh, when Rabbi Segal instigated the idea of having all of the Russian immigrants who had never even seen or touched the Torah. He

01:14:43.520 - 01:15:04.040

had them, He want his idea was for them to stand on the open the Torah all the way and let them each hold it because they never had the opportunity to do that. Well, of course that created a bureau. Um, after all, some of the elders

01:15:04.040 - 01:15:21.260

of the community took him to task and they said, you know, you're not allowed to touch the Torah. That's why you use a yard. So the board had an emergency meeting. And Rabbi Segal came to that meeting and I guess, you know, he and I came

01:15:21.260 - 01:15:41.500

about the same time, but I was always impressed with him, but never more so than this moment. I have great respect for his intellect and his integrity. He came to that board meeting with a stack of books and he had researched it all the way. And

01:15:41.500 - 01:16:00.870

he opened up each of the books to the part where it said about touching the Torah with your hands And what it said was you shall not touch the Torah with unclean hands and so therefore it didn't really matter as long as everybody was washed, their

01:16:00.870 - 01:16:20.520

hands were clean, you could actually touch the Torah and we had that, that defining moment and it was so emotional because these people who had just recently come from Russia who had never seen or touched the Torah were able to stand on Matthew assurance pulpit opened

01:16:20.520 - 01:16:35.850

the Torah up completely from one end to the other and, and, and hold it and say the blessings and that I think was one of the most emotional experiences I ever had in Beth you sure of course, both admit and I were lucky enough to become

01:16:35.850 - 01:16:56.160

president of the synagogue and that requires a lot of effort in the synagogue like Beth you sure in um, I think they punish you by making you serve two terms two years. But at any rate, it was a great experience. Um, we built during by term

01:16:56.160 - 01:17:18.480

one year term. Um, the jewish museum at Beth you sure in the malian Kaplan Museum of judaica and uh, I think that was a high 0.2, but I'll tell you having my sister leave the services in the family service for over 40 years was a tribute

01:17:18.490 - 01:17:38.520

to both our training and our parents training and the fact that we were able to give and gave us um Annette, is there any, are there any standout moments you experience that you haven't mentioned so far that you would like to share? Okay, well, I mean,

01:17:38.520 - 01:17:59.800

I think that um, in my early years there, I really served as, uh, we had a canter and no one was there to help him if he woke up sick. So if, if, aside from the services, uh, I would get a phone call sometimes on a

01:17:59.800 - 01:18:16.390

saturday morning and um, and you know, Cantor Wagner would call me and say, I just can't do service today, can you come? And I would just get in the car and go over there and, and lead services. And so it was, I did everything there from

01:18:16.390 - 01:18:35.370

those high Holy Day services to weddings and sometimes I was asked to officiate at a funeral, um, whatever, um, they needed me to do, I was more than happy to be able to do it. So, it, it was, it was very fulfilling for me from an

01:18:35.370 - 01:19:00.230

artistic standpoint and also from the standpoint of being able to uh, give back to the synagogue. So I think that uh, that was very important um, in my, uh, if, if in my head as a life and my sisterhood life sisterhood, I was very involved that

01:19:00.230 - 01:19:24.710

Kenny was in men's club for years and years and in almost every aspect except I didn't accept the presidency By the time that that came along, I was very involved in Madison and had um began to look at Hadassah as a professional volunteerism because had ASA

01:19:24.720 - 01:19:56.170

really is volunteer run and um professional supported similar to the way congregations are and unlike federations and, and I did um, I, I was nationally involved at a very high level for many, many years and until I retired and uh, until I was the, uh, the

01:19:56.170 - 01:20:23.160

person in charge of being the liaison to the hospital in Israel. And uh, that was a four year dent. That was very consuming. And then I, um, and then I initiated and, and ran a, a strategic plan for the whole country in Hadassah and that was

01:20:23.160 - 01:20:39.430

the last job that I was willing to take, but that was a very long and fulfilling careers as well. So I think I've been very lucky, I mean, and Hadassah also allowed me to perform, I led services for him as a for many years and, and

01:20:39.440 - 01:21:01.800

performed for them. Um, the woman that, that accompanied me, we'd many times, we get on a plane and we go to Virginia or Atlanta or florida where we were, I would speak and then we do provide them with the program. Um, I also had an opportunity

01:21:01.800 - 01:21:20.470

to sing the stage at Kennedy center when we had a convention, there's um, and I was accompanied by the marine band. So that was a big deal for me and uh, you know, I have to say that it's been very good. Incredible. Thank you so much

01:21:20.470 - 01:21:36.930

for sharing. Um, so between the two y'all, what were some of the biggest changes that you think you've seen at Beth you Sharon during that time and that should we just continue with you? Well, I guess the biggest change was the um, the inclusion of women

01:21:36.930 - 01:21:54.530

at every level because it really, it just wasn't done anywhere. And I think all things kind of came together at the same time and a Rabbi Segal was very open and wanted to include as many people in his things as he could. Um, the reason we

01:21:54.530 - 01:22:13.020

started that family service was so that families could sit together and pray during the holidays and not have to have teenagers in one room and infants in another room. And at one point we had teenagers at the Maryland theater which is gone now. Um, that was

01:22:13.020 - 01:22:32.740

his vision. And so I saw a lot of that. I thought it it was good for the congregation and and help. I mean the synagogue grew in leaps and bounds during that period. So a lot of things were, you know, uh changed. And I think mostly

01:22:32.740 - 01:22:51.060

it was because um, there was an, in a family kind of a family inclusion wasn't like women stay at home when the men come ken what were some of the biggest changes that you saw that occurred to Beth and Sharon during your time there. Um I

01:22:51.060 - 01:23:10.930

think I had similar experiences because but I attribute them all to bed to a Rabbi Segal when Rabbi Segal chose to come to bed for sure in I was just uh had just become a member and uh uh he was a different personality, he was a

01:23:10.930 - 01:23:28.460

pied piper. Uh he wanted to do new things um for the first part of the time he was there, the board requested to give for him to give them his sermon in advance because they were afraid of what he would say on the pulpit. He was

01:23:28.460 - 01:23:53.290

talking about sex and things like that, talked about everything and he was very, very good at it. Um and I realized that bounds in all phases basically with his leadership, his clergy ical leadership. I remember going to synagogue in san Francisco where one of my sons

01:23:53.300 - 01:24:16.120

lives now and I think it was either one of the Children's bought mitts bar mitzvahs and the rabbi in that synagogue mentioned Jack Siegel, that's what he knew about Houston texas. Jack Siegel was a leader and that that was the most exciting congregation in all of

01:24:16.120 - 01:24:32.020

the United States. And so I think a lot of it, we were just caught up in it quite frankly that we assumed that's what every congregation did. But but I don't think looking back if that's the case, I mean all of those acronyms that we have

01:24:32.020 - 01:24:48.470

in bed for sure in which are uh T. N. T. And uh some of the other things, those were all right. My single policy fulfilling. And uh he would write letters to all of the Children who were in college. He would write them a personal letter.

01:24:48.480 - 01:25:06.100

I mean his his energy is boundless. Uh and I would attribute to the change, I would attribute to the to the exciting changes in Beth you sure an accomplished during the time that Annette and I were there is really probably his doing or at least he

01:25:06.100 - 01:25:24.810

was the catalyst. We all contributed, but he was the catalyst. Very nice. Alright. So for the next question, so we're about reaching the end of our interview right now. But for my next question, I want to take a step back. I want uh I want to

01:25:24.810 - 01:25:38.070

know have any, y'all have y'all been like back to Beaumont in the last few recent years? Uh And and if you have, what are, what are some of the main things have changed about? Just Beaumont is the city center youth, but also to your knowledge like

01:25:38.070 - 01:25:55.060

what does the jewish community in Beaumont look like today? Which one would you like to start? Well, it's I'll let him finish because he knows more than I do about it because he goes more, but we still have a a smidgen of family that's left there

01:25:55.070 - 01:26:16.480

and that we stay in contact with. But I mean there are very few jewish families there now. The the reform Temple and the synagogue um have combined like they have in many small um towns there. Um you know, mainly when we go now we go to

01:26:16.480 - 01:26:39.150

the cemetery, we go uh to to pay our respects and the city itself has changed pretty much, but you know, it's um it's changed in layout a little bit etcetera, but there's not as much hustle and bustle. I don't think as many people, the population of

01:26:39.150 - 01:26:55.480

the city itself I think has gone down. Certainly the population of the jewish community has gone down and um it's not, you know, I loved growing up there. It was a wonderful experience as far as I was concerned. I love being able to walk down the

01:26:55.480 - 01:27:14.020

street and no people, I loved living in a household where there were um it's always somebody's lap that I could climb on. I mean I love that and to this day I like having a lot of family around me. It has stayed with me. So um

01:27:14.270 - 01:27:36.960

yeah, I think a lot of that has has changed. It's certainly not what it was. I think she's absolutely correct. Uh We have a couple of cousins left in, in Beaumont. Um I spoke to the President or not the president, but the representative of the temple

01:27:36.970 - 01:28:02.510

just the other day because we want to do some refurbishing of the, of the cemetery there and uh they're having troubles um combined synagogues are our meat now in the temple because the temple is a magnificent structure and has been designated as a historical uh site

01:28:02.520 - 01:28:26.760

in texas. Uh, It's a beautiful place. Um, uh, I don't know why the people aren't going to Beaumont anymore. There's still plenty of jobs there, but obviously the Children of the founders of the jewish community in Beaumont. The Children and grandchildren have all chosen not to

01:28:26.760 - 01:28:44.880

go back for the most part. Um, So I I look at it. I look at it as a dying community. I'm sure they'll hang on for a few more years. We go back. Uh, probably once or twice a year, um, just to visit the cemetery or

01:28:44.880 - 01:29:04.010

to see one of our cousins, um, try to make it in one trip to do both. I can't say that it's unusual for any of the other smaller communities in the state of texas or maybe throughout the south. I don't, I don't know the demographics. Uh,

01:29:04.020 - 01:29:21.780

I do know that it's dwindling and I don't know what the answer is. Mhm. All right, Well, moving on to the next question now, this has to deal with the jewish community in Houston. Um, So, I mean, that has to deal with the changes, both, positive

01:29:21.780 - 01:29:41.610

and negative. So, I guess the first part of this question was between the two of you, what are some changes that you believe have been beneficial to the jewish Houston, jewish community in y'all's time being here. Well, I think that um the growth of entities like

01:29:41.690 - 01:30:06.740

family service and federation, that's been very positive for the community and and and and and also seven acres. Uh those things have been very good for the, for the community and, and I think that there's no real shortage of people willing to work and give their

01:30:06.740 - 01:30:25.950

time and interest for that. I think synagogue life is waning. That's my opinion. Um, and I think mostly because there was this whole push to get bigger and bigger and bigger, then we got bigger and bigger and bigger and if you're not really active and you

01:30:25.950 - 01:30:46.730

don't stay a part of it etcetera, you're kind of lost in those big um entities now. And I see um articles in the paper about the the heights of havre and the this and that Minion and they're moving, I think kind of back to kind of

01:30:46.730 - 01:31:05.740

a sterile mentality where they can know the few people that are, there doesn't cost so much to keep it up. I think all of these are societal um issues, but they impact, you know, in other words, this idea when we were growing up, everybody was obligated,

01:31:05.750 - 01:31:28.120

they felt obligated. It was the rare person that didn't feel obligated to support the synagogue, the temple, whatever it was now. I don't think there's that obligation? I think there's in other words after your mortgage and your family, there might be a whole list of things

01:31:28.120 - 01:31:48.440

before you get to synagogue and other, if you understand what I'm saying. And so uh some of this is just a, I think a result of um people being more um solitary and the things that they do, they don't look for that community until they actually

01:31:48.440 - 01:32:04.440

need it. And that's why Greenfield Chapel has become so important when there's a death in the family. But I hear, oh my God, they're so wonderful to me. When I go into Greenfield Chapel, they've made me feel that community. So they don't have that kind of

01:32:04.450 - 01:32:21.280

search for community like we had when we first came because we were looking for it. Now it's all around them. It's like the friends that I have in new york, not that many of them belong to a congregation or did they ever, they didn't need it,

01:32:21.280 - 01:32:41.020

it was all over, it was all around them. So they didn't look for it the same way, ken what are some beneficial changes that you've seen to the jewish community. I think what we see is mirrors the growth of Houston. Um that right now the jewish

01:32:41.030 - 01:33:03.710

population of Houston has probably tripled just as the city has probably tripled in population since I came. Um we have more entities here. We now have a jewish school, that was only a pipe dream when we first came, the schools were run by the synagogues and

01:33:03.710 - 01:33:23.690

they went through the sixth grade, in fact was probably the only one in existence then Beth Beth Israel having had one and now we have a community school, the Emory school, which is junior and senior high school. Um so sometimes when you have that growth, it

01:33:23.690 - 01:33:44.610

takes away from what was the center of your, your initiative vis a vis the synagogue. Now, you have to give money and time and effort to those other things. I think that maybe it will come back to fruition that after those things are all done in

01:33:44.620 - 01:34:03.360

the next generation will have synagogue activities that they're at their best. At least. I hope so. I don't know if that will occur. Maybe it won't, maybe we will go the way of, as Annette says the new york and the the eastern communities, northeastern communities where

01:34:03.360 - 01:34:20.890

there's so much around you, you don't have the need to belong to a synagogue. I hope that doesn't happen, but it certainly could because I don't think Houston is gonna stop growing. I mean it looks like it's, it's it's booming again and I think with the

01:34:20.890 - 01:34:40.900

population in general is gonna be, it's gonna come more jews in the city when we first came here, there were four synagogues and now the page in the jewish Harold voice of synagogues is half a page full of listings. We never had that before. So I

01:34:40.900 - 01:35:00.030

don't know if that growth is gonna continue or if they're gonna some are gonna merge. I don't have any idea. But I hope that people become more synagogue oriented? Uh, so that they will be able to give back as much as they take. Yeah, I will

01:35:00.030 - 01:35:20.920

say that you mentioned the the high school and the middle school, the and the community and I will say that that has satisfied a huge piece of community for the generation that's going through their parents and Children and they don't feel that they get a lot

01:35:20.920 - 01:35:33.920

of that there. And one of my grandchildren said, you know, if you go to Emory, you don't need to go to kill a high school and you don't need to do, which is the new Hillel and whatever you don't need to do that because you get

01:35:33.920 - 01:35:50.420

it all at Emory? So it pulls you away and some extent that's the generation, those two or three generations or four generations that feel like that. So what will it take to get them back there? I don't know. It's costly on all accounts. If you want

01:35:50.420 - 01:36:12.480

to send your kids to a community high school, it's very expensive. Um, and then on top of that, if you want to support a big congregation that's very expensive and it just gets, sometimes it comes down to dollars and cents over everything. Well, so the second

01:36:12.480 - 01:36:24.020

part of the question was going to be, what are some changes? Do you believe have been harmful to the jewish community. But I feel like, you know, we've been covering. Yeah, kind of like back and forth. Is there any other changes you believe they've been harmful

01:36:24.020 - 01:36:39.100

to the jewish community? Uh I wouldn't call them harmful, I would call them understanding consequences of the time because we live in a certain time. And that that's just the way it is. It's a big city. We have jewish populations all over now. They don't all

01:36:39.100 - 01:36:58.280

live close to um Beth you Sharon or Beth Israel or have to drive, you know, quite a distance to get there. And so that's why I think if they're looking for community, sometimes they start these cameras on their on their own. Um and uh, I think

01:36:58.280 - 01:37:24.760

that um yeah, I mean they are harmful but not an it's not necessarily negative, it's negative to the institution, but it may not be negative to the jewish community. That's yet to be determined we have in this city. I think um because of its size and

01:37:24.760 - 01:37:48.040

its geographical uh Largeness that if you keep going further and further away from what we would consider to be the center of jewish culture, um you're gonna have to have other centers spring up and what you hope for is that it it evens itself out. So

01:37:48.040 - 01:38:08.400

instead of having maybe we're going through a growth spurt right now. Maybe we're in the teenage years of the growth of the Houston jewish community? Perhaps we're going to see a complete change in that these outlying areas will become self sufficient and they will be on

01:38:08.410 - 01:38:29.980

enclaves of a lot of jewish activity. And uh I think we see that in other in other situations let's take just the medical and the dental community. Um We used to have a center of meeting every month of of the dentists and the physicians. We would

01:38:29.990 - 01:38:45.490

uh we'd have a monthly meeting. Well now you can get somebody to drive to the medical center from the Woodlands for a monthly meeting. So what do they have? They have their own little monthly meeting and maybe the full meeting will only be yearly. I don't

01:38:45.490 - 01:39:07.400

know what the situation is going to come to. I don't know that it's necessarily bad But it's certainly not. Exactly. Yeah. Alright. Well to um to kinda finalize out this that question between the two of you all, where do you guys see the Jewish community in

01:39:07.400 - 01:39:24.530

10 years time in Houston? Uh and do you believe it's on a positive trajectory? Well I guess it's how you define, I guess it's how you define positive. So you know it depends on where you're looking up or down. If I were the president of a

01:39:24.530 - 01:39:44.900

big congregation like Beth you Sharon today, I'd be concerned because um the income stream is dues and it's a big institution and if you have to replace the air conditioning or you have to re roof or whatever you have to do. You're talking about huge chunks

01:39:45.220 - 01:40:03.730

of money and you only have one income stream really. So I think that what's gonna happen, I think that the future is, or let's say you say what you say 10 years from now. Ok. I think we're sprawling right now. I think we're trying to find

01:40:03.740 - 01:40:22.160

a place. People who live on the west side of town are trying Houston congregation for reform Judaism or some of the other, there's a couple of conservatives that are a little further away. They're not so concerned about if they were brought up conservative or Orthodox or

01:40:22.170 - 01:40:37.100

whatever they were. This is where it's close for them to go. I don't speak for everyone, but I do speak for some that I know of that have chosen that path. Whereas I go, oh my God, I'm never going to Houston congress reform Judaism because I'm

01:40:37.100 - 01:40:57.430

not, you know, an ultra reformed jew, but that does, that is not as important now as just being associated with other jews. So I think that it's not uh devolving, it's evolving. I don't know where it's gonna end up right now. I think it's seeking its

01:40:57.430 - 01:41:15.470

own level. I do think it'll it'll figure out 10 years might be too soon, but I do think they'll find a way because we'll find a way to satisfy that need, it may be that, you know, Bethany Sherman will end up being a center and they'll

01:41:15.470 - 01:41:28.980

have all these satellite centers all over, although every time you open a satellite center cost you more, but you have to figure it out. You know, there's a congregation. Um and I'm not gonna tell you the name of the rabbi or anything because I don't want

01:41:28.980 - 01:41:46.520

to identify it really. And there's several families from Bethany Sherman that are going there. Why are they going there? Well they love him, he's reformed but they love him and there's no dudes, they meet someplace and they can go and they get that satisfaction of going

01:41:46.520 - 01:42:08.420

to services to go every friday night, every saturday morning. But there are no dues so they don't have to do anything. Um I think without that personal investment, your it's not as good and at some point I think they'll have to invest something other than just

01:42:08.420 - 01:42:25.030

their time on friday night and saturday morning. But I think that their people are looking for ways to be connected that they can afford or that they want to afford or is there a lot of, there are a lot of different, I think a lot of

01:42:25.030 - 01:42:47.760

different things involved in it. I think I think they'll work it out to tell you the truth, I'm a glass half full person. I'm optimistic about what's gonna be, it will be different. Um I remember that I recall that was the merger of two synagogues and

01:42:47.760 - 01:43:10.490

they moved further west from downtown. Um and it may be that synagogues will merge, maybe they'll get a little bigger, but maybe they'll at least have more people to draw from. They may have to change their demographics, their geography. Um, but I think that it will

01:43:10.510 - 01:43:28.010

jews, jews in my opinion, wanted to be together one way or the other. We heard of people and I think that that's gonna happen. I don't know what form it's going to take, but I am optimistic about the future of, of jewish community in Houston, because

01:43:28.010 - 01:43:47.990

I'm optimistic about Houston, Houston, dynamic city. And right now it used to be that everybody lived all the jews lived in a certain area. We, we went from riverside to my Ireland to Stella link from Ireland now we're going further west or maybe to another east

01:43:47.990 - 01:44:06.800

or north, who knows where they're gonna go, but they're gonna be together somewhere. That's what I think is gonna. Very nice. Uh, so with the, so we're nearing, we're about at the end of our conversation today, I have one last question, You know, this is for

01:44:06.800 - 01:44:21.090

both the all. Uh, so what would each of you like people who are listening or reading this session, you know, years from now saying, no, it's 10 2050 years from now. What do you really want them to know and learn from your stories? I mean, what

01:44:21.090 - 01:44:36.520

do you want to be the main takeaway from, y'all's personal expiry, just like both, just growing up as individuals, but also like growing up as jews. So, so with that. Yeah, So the last question, um, you know, years from now whenever people are listening to this

01:44:36.520 - 01:44:51.510

or reading this session, um, what's the main thing that you want? People to really learn from your experience, You know from y'all's lives from y'all story. You know, when it regards, regarding jewish history in texas, you know, just the history of the jewish community in southeast

01:44:51.510 - 01:45:12.210

texas in particular. Um you want me to go and you want to go, well, I will tell you that. I think the one thing that I hope people will gain from this is the word survival. I think we are an absolute picture of what people from

01:45:12.210 - 01:45:36.960

persecution did in order to survive. We are the product of that survival. It came from eastern europe, came to small towns like Beaumont and then they instilled in their Children and grandchildren. This mode of what it means to be jewish and the survival of the jewish

01:45:36.960 - 01:45:56.950

people is what we have from this. And I think that it is so important that that idea of survival continues. So what I'd like for people to get from our experience is that the jewish people in order to maintain their livelihood and their life needs to

01:45:56.950 - 01:46:17.740

find a way to survive. And sometimes you have to change a little on the way, but eventually you'll survive. And I, and to build, I think he's right to build on that. I think that what they have to remember is my grandmother used to say to

01:46:17.740 - 01:46:36.770

me, Children don't grow on trees. That was her favorite expression when I was raising my kids, you gotta put yourself into it that you get out of something what you give it. And that it's very important that I think that generations to come should remember that

01:46:36.770 - 01:46:52.480

Judaism will not survive on its own. It's not, it doesn't just live, you have to feed it, you have to nurture it, you have to do something to it. We don't have to all do everything. But as we're taught, we have to do some things. And

01:46:52.480 - 01:47:08.350

so you know that expression about jews don't keep Shabbat Shabbat keeps the jews if that's the only thing you do and if you come together and light candles and then go out and eat a pizza, okay, whatever you can do is better than doing nothing. And

01:47:08.350 - 01:47:30.100

I think that Judaism, I would like them to say that to remember that if they want to continue what has been nurtured for them, they're gonna have to build on those traditions and they're gonna have to do it in a way that is conscious. So in

01:47:30.110 - 01:47:46.640

other words, we didn't think about it consciously, it was just who we were, in other words, we brought with us everything we learned, nobody had to tell me when I was in college not to go to school in Russia shawna. I knew not to go to

01:47:46.650 - 01:48:10.090

Russia, Nobody had to tell me keep Passover. And I just did it because that's what I was taught. And I think that, um, you have to be taught to do these kinds of things and if you don't, um, you're gonna lose what's important. So my lesson,

01:48:10.100 - 01:48:25.060

what I would say is you have to consciously nurture the traditions of Judaism if you wanted to live well, thank you so much.