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This is Poly Moore. Today is July 16th, 1969. The time is uh 215. We're in Doctor Robert Khan's office. This is gonna be number 42. Take 13 side one B sitting is now 358. Yeah, that's fine. Um In your normal conversation tone, could you just uh

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give me the name and address? Let me see coming to you. My name is Robert L Khan. I'm Professor of German. My private address is 4106, Merrick Drive, Houston, Texas. No, I think I might do that a little push up. Bye. Right. Well, Doctor Khan, just

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to uh reiterate for the record. What uh what we talked about before, uh what I'm interested in getting from you in this interview is um uh first of all, uh not necessarily in this order, but uh I'm interested in getting your uh ideas on what do

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you think are the important characteristics uh of the man who uh who you hoped would become president of rhymes and this will involve us then in uh what your aspirations are for rhymes. What do you think its possibilities are and how far away do you think

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right now is from those uh those possibilities, for instance, um at the time the faculty advisory committee was in session, did you, did you take an active part uh in any way such as uh submitting names of possible candidates? Yes, I did. I wrote to uh

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Franz Braden twice, I believe. And I suggested two names. I had canvassed my department first and the two names were Franz Braden and Dean Bill Gordon. We thought quite highly of them. They have an international reputation and both of them showed themselves to be very able

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administrators. They are also intimately connected with the history of Rice and they have the trust and respect of the faculty. So in a way, I suppose, uh this also answers your first question. What do I think of kind of precedent that we ought to have? I

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think we ought to have a man who knows r quite well, um who has the responsibility, the trust rather of the faculty, who has an international reputation. And you can see things very clearly and present issues concisely and to knows where he wants us to go.

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I think really of a very strong man for Rice, not someone who can be influenced too much by one of the other factions or by one of the other larger groups, students, faculty administrator. So, but someone who is, who knows his own mind, actually what I'm

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giving you is a smaller character sketch of Dr pitzer whom I respected very highly. And I'd like to see a man like that again for us. Did you, um, uh, some of the factions, uh, in this controversy felt very strongly that they wanted someone who had

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not been associated with rash. What do you consider to be the weaknesses of that position? Well, Rice is a unique, um, university. It's like any other university or college has its own history, its own, um problems. And I felt, I still feel that uh someone who

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knows Rice well, uh will make a good president. It takes many years for an outsider to really know what is going on to really uh govern sensibly. And one of the advantages I had was when I came here, I came in 1962 Doctor Pitzer had been

00:04:27.519 - 00:04:52.250

here several years. So I knew him only after he had probably learned the craft of being president of price. In other words, he probably had paid the price of inexperience and lack of knowledge of this particular university in the two years before I had come. Uh

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There is one thing perhaps one could say in favor of having an outside person, the person that comes in is not known, he will not be attached to any of the factions. And there is a proverb to the effect that new brooms sleep better than old

00:05:14.350 - 00:05:32.989

ones. So these are all things I'm sure that could be said in favor of, of having a new man. But to my mind he spends, we will have to spend too much time on getting to know the situation. So I favor someone from the inside and

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there are good people here as we do have one right now to my lungs who is a good man and we'll see how it works out. What do you consider to be, uh, some of the grass, the problems at, at this stage in its history. There

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are several um I was called here to start a graduate program in German really. And that to my mind is one of the great problems here. The graduate student is uh at loose ends at r here um is looked down upon some or other um the

00:06:16.119 - 00:06:42.660

undergraduates rule uh internal, I shouldn't say internal, but they rule the political fields as far as students are concerned. Uh they have the Senate and the Student Association and the graduates uh simply are forgotten and uh maybe that's the case at most universities. But I remember

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from the one that I attended, the graduate students really governed and I think this leads to some psychological problems among the graduate students. I've heard uh just lately that there have been several suicides among graduate students. Of course, not surprising in view of the fact that

00:07:02.549 - 00:07:24.130

there's a tremendous lot of work connected with all the graduate programs, particularly at this university. And also because this is a sort of a hot house atmosphere. We have the rise and tremendous pressures. A lot is required terrific competition among students themselves, high quality and so

00:07:24.140 - 00:07:44.250

on which leads to, to personal problems. But I would think that um this is one of the areas where we could institute some reforms that the graduate students as a body, as a group will be given more responsibility. I think it would help the self respect

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of each of them. So this is one area. Uh second area I think is uh well the transition from a small college, uh idyllically located off Main Street, OK. Now becoming a major university, uh quite a few of the departments have a national international reputation. Many

00:08:16.739 - 00:08:41.330

faculty members come from other areas, not the South, which leads to a really great problem. I think that will, that, that did reflect that it did have a part in, in the Masterson affair. And uh uh people that have traveled widely that have seen quite a

00:08:41.340 - 00:09:05.039

bit of the world. Well, they will not be content to simply serve in a small college. They want to, to give rise a really uh international flavor. And maybe this is in a way part of the criticism that was voiced against the decision of the board

00:09:05.049 - 00:09:29.659

of trustees. That would be problem. Number two. Another problem that uh I feel as a member of the humanities division is that in the past, the Natural Sciences have been given a great deal of emphasis on this campus. Lately, the Social Sciences have come to the

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fore but the communities still are the stepchild stepchildren of this university. We noticed that in the budget, we noticed it at election time amongst even our colleagues in other, in other fields. And I believe that uh we just have to have more money and was opposed

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by the administration and by the colleagues in other way, there's no doubt about the fourth problem is that I do very often have the feeling that some of my colleagues and well are, excuse me, are misled somewhat. They, they, they think that uh rises really excellent

00:10:23.700 - 00:10:51.049

in all respects and they over estimate, I think themselves as well as many of the departments. But that's just the point of view of someone who's trying to be objective. That's, that's an interesting uh observation and it's uh it's when I'm like, that's crossed my mind,

00:10:51.059 - 00:11:06.559

but I really haven't been able to uh to zero in on it. Uh I want you to elaborate that on that somewhat. Uh the price of the people who held this view. Um How did they react to the master in the case can use the lip

00:11:06.570 - 00:11:33.539

with their knee um cohesion. Is there an outlook or the attitude? And I don't know whether one can really pinpoint it that way. I just feel that um there were many colleagues who make rise their life and their, the only interest and I believe that is

00:11:33.549 - 00:11:52.580

one of the reasons why we've had such a hectic time. Uh There are some of us who, um, I'm more reserved, perhaps in our detriment, we have wider interests and uh who may not be a single mind in, in this. So, say subjective uh uh in

00:11:52.590 - 00:12:10.599

their, in their views, it's very nice to be loyal. I'm loyal and I'm sure that all of the people that I know are loyal to rice. But um I think it is important that one has some kind of perspective to. And I know for instance that

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this is one of the really bones of contention uh in various departments, including my own, that uh some of our colleagues have some kind of absolute standards, some kind of extremely high qualitative standards, forgetting that uh the history of our institution and forgetting all the facts

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of life, namely that we cannot as yet in the communities. Take that as an example, we cannot as yet compete with some of the well-established other institutions such as Yale, Harvard Berkeley, even University of Texas at Austin. But I'll be interpreting what you're saying correctly. Uh

00:13:05.340 - 00:13:26.619

to mean that people who uh are quite uh who accept rise as being already outstanding would tend to feel that any um change or any suggestion change might uh right, be a threat to the status quo or a threat to his prestige or a threat to

00:13:26.630 - 00:13:48.909

its uh yes to its growth. Do you think to its real. Perhaps. I, I really don't think so. Um, actually, what you're asking is, are there many conservative people here on our, on our faculty? Yes, it does. I don't mean it in a political sense really.

00:13:48.919 - 00:14:02.770

I just mean it as a sort of a trait of character perhaps that they look at cans perhaps at new developments and so on. I don't think so. You will find that most of the faculty, I would think at least two thirds of the faculty are

00:14:02.780 - 00:14:27.750

quite progressive and they want change and they want to, um, have r really be what they, um, hope and dream. It can be. In other words, they want to realize its potential. I think that's also another aspect of the master situation, be coming from Chattanooga or,

00:14:28.679 - 00:14:50.940

um, not having a name, uh nationally or internationally speaking. I'm sure that's one of the reasons. Whereas the others who are used to the old times you see to, to this idyllic college, they, um, um, probably, uh, would tend to, to, to have agreed with the

00:14:50.950 - 00:15:12.070

masters in insurance. In other words, those, those who, um, were fairly well pleased with rise, the state of progress, uh at this time would have been inclined to agree with this with whatever the board might have decided. I would imagine that the associate with that. I,

00:15:12.080 - 00:15:30.479

I would imagine that that's the reason in your own mind. Uh uh How do you interpret the Lord's uh uh attitude toward rice in relation to this problem we're discussing. Uh do you think that, uh for instance, your idea of the RS are the same as

00:15:30.489 - 00:15:53.030

are different from the board's uh aspirations for R I really have very little knowledge here. Um If you want my feelings about the matter, I think that many of the board members whom I do not know personally really. I've met one or the other just incidentally

00:15:53.760 - 00:16:13.679

many of them I think are mhm national figures. They are not just tied down to rise. I think this is a misconception that some of my colleagues have. I know that a man like Mr Lieder is, is widely traveled and Mr Cox is widely, all of

00:16:13.690 - 00:16:36.580

these people. Mr Brown talked to Mr Brown several times and I was very much impressed by his breadth of knowledge and his interest. I don't think they are just seven, the people of the old school now, I think that they have some experience. Of course, it's

00:16:36.590 - 00:16:56.880

a different experience from the kind that we have as faculty members. They run international or national businesses which uh uh would lead them to decide perhaps unilaterally more than some of us like. But uh they are not, I think uh parochial, they are not, they are

00:16:56.890 - 00:17:14.660

not uh small town, small town people, provincial. I don't think that's the case. I think this was overemphasized during the masses and things. I'm pretty sure in your comments on that. It's, uh, it provides an excellent balance for some of them in the record. Yes, I

00:17:14.670 - 00:17:32.750

think they are limited in a way because they are limited as we all are by what we are doing. That is they are businessmen, they believe in action from the top. And that's of course what caused the whole business to explode. But they are not limited

00:17:32.760 - 00:17:51.229

in their vision or in their breath. I don't think they are. But again, this is just a subjective feeling. I'm trying to be as fair as I can. But some other problems that we have ari coming back to this one question that you raised, I suppose

00:17:51.239 - 00:18:12.099

one of the other problems is particularly this situation between the various, which we call them bodies that make up the university. Uh I think everybody has beve the fact that there is a lack of communication. Again, if I may try to bring things into perspective, I

00:18:12.109 - 00:18:27.109

am sure that many faculty members, I have always been able to talk to the administrators. I never have felt that for instance, I am an administrator that has never, I mean, this is something that, that I've never had. And I've always said I'm a professor of

00:18:27.119 - 00:18:53.359

German. I've just been elected or selected to be a, to be a chairman for some time, but I've always signed myself as professor to and um uh no, so all of us, an instructor, a graduate student, we've always been able to go to any of the

00:18:53.369 - 00:19:12.030

administrators and talk to them. Uh, not simply as administrators. I mean, I think this was one of the wonderful things about Dr Pitzer. He knew everybody and he stopped them and he identified them and I think that has been a rise tradition. So I think there's

00:19:12.040 - 00:19:31.300

sort of a Bugaboo going around here too. Not on, I mean, it's flood the country of putting people into certain blocks and saying no, we are against the administration or we are against the uh this particular group or that particular group. I always disliked generalizations. And

00:19:31.310 - 00:19:45.689

uh I think that is at the basis of misconceptions and at the basis of, of conflict really, if you say all blacks are so and so or all whites are so and so you've got the beginning of the Civil war and this in, I'm sure has

00:19:45.699 - 00:20:03.910

contributed also to our situation. I think for instance that any, any student that rise has been able to see the team has been able to see his professor. There has been a wonderful personal relationship between students and faculty members. On the other hand, perhaps the board

00:20:03.920 - 00:20:22.469

of trustees has been left out now. I don't know whether this was a matter of choice, it was perhaps a matter of the situation. Um They are very busy people, they meet downtown at meetings, they uh don't come here very often. If they do, they only

00:20:22.479 - 00:20:42.660

meet certain selected people, um they have not retired so from business life or from their normal activities. I think maybe for that reason, we were somewhat isolated and there was no communication, but I believe you find that not just on our campus, but most campuses and

00:20:42.670 - 00:21:10.130

that in a way is a tragic situation really, particularly in times when there must be a dialogue or a trialogue. And I'm sure it led to the, to this expression to um several other problems that we we we might discuss is that uh um the Ivory

00:21:10.140 - 00:21:26.500

Tower situation that I found at rise, I come from big universities. I uh although uh I I did my undergraduate work at a very small Canadian University very much like like rice. And it was, it was a wonderful experience because I knew my professors very well

00:21:26.510 - 00:21:49.060

and it took time out to talk to me that house University in here. And I still correspond with particularly one gentleman who's now 79 has retired, one of the great teachers to a historian. And uh uh however, the, the the that in my graduate work there

00:21:49.069 - 00:22:05.719

was the University of Toronto. It's a huge place and uh I sort of felt lost somewhat. There was very little help and assistance I got from my professors. It was really each man for himself and this is something we try to prevent here, right? I was,

00:22:05.729 - 00:22:21.469

I've been extremely conscious of that. And then later on my first job for coming to, I was the University of Washington. It's another big university and one felt lost. Whereas here I had the feeling you can really do something you can, you can work with people,

00:22:21.479 - 00:22:34.310

you can meet them. And as a matter of fact, we all know each other and talk to each other. And I think this is one of the great advantages of. Right. So this is something I, I really like, but there is a disadvantage of this. And

00:22:34.319 - 00:22:56.390

I think I have uh referred to that before since you know, everybody, a rumor can spread extremely quickly. Uh any uh uh negative. Yeah, report will spread even more quickly than a positive report. It's natural. So whatever happens at one end of the campus is known

00:22:56.400 - 00:23:20.290

in no time at the other end. And there are, I don't think this is again, you need to rise. I believe you will find that uh there is no more talkative and gossipy group in life than the academic group. I'm sorry to say that my wife

00:23:20.300 - 00:23:36.020

has always remarked in this and there are some people you see that we know very well who love to, to discuss the private affairs of others. And uh my wife and I being Europeans had been brought up there. We are rather reserved. We, we, I, I

00:23:36.030 - 00:23:49.489

just don't go in for that sort of thing. I don't like it particularly. I think there must be some sort of privacy available too. Well, this is one of the disadvantages, particularly the small college, I think everything is known. So you hear everything extremely quickly and

00:23:49.500 - 00:24:07.859

particularly that, which is not so, uh, even both students and among the students themselves, this is something that seems to be going on, graduates and undergraduates. It's a regular room unknown. It's a hot house atmosphere which is un push. But you find that in small towns,

00:24:07.869 - 00:24:29.650

you find it in, in villages and so on. Something I don't particularly chose, the grounds are wonderful. I mean, it's an ivory tower situation. Uh uh It is I think something that that many of our young people like to cure, they like to go out, take

00:24:29.660 - 00:24:52.979

social action, be part of the community and so on. But I think again, because of the beginning, I shouldn't say beginning but because of the difference uh between objectives and goals and even the way one looks at things, actually, what I'm discussing is the intellectual atitude.

00:24:53.739 - 00:25:19.810

Um because of this difference uh with that, let's say of the man on the street. I think young people um very often we helped by the men on the street. They're not taken there. Is he cool? And another aspect aspect of this is the American situation

00:25:20.589 - 00:25:45.500

where the intellectual has always been the egghead and not been highly regarded. The businessman is the man who sets the tone he um the stable member of the community and the poet and the musician and uh even the scientist, I suspect are still not in the

00:25:45.510 - 00:26:04.400

mainstream of society. Yeah. So if he needs them, but it doesn't mean real life. Although on the other hand, again, this is r this unique situation. Um we find that we are highly regarded in the community as a whole that if you want to establish credit

00:26:04.410 - 00:26:23.859

or if one asks, where are you working well as a rise. But people, I think socially speaking will shy away from us somewhat. And that is another reason why so many of us uh content to mingle only with colleagues socially too. I tried desperately and so

00:26:23.869 - 00:26:43.810

does my wife to, to, to meet people from other walks of life. But it is, it is difficult. In other words, my neighbors, when we cut the grass, we talk to each other. But it's difficult I think to get into the confidence of people to break

00:26:43.819 - 00:27:08.209

down this kind of barrier that we have no trouble with at all. No, they won't get let down one's hair much more easily. So I think this is another uh reason why um rice is thrown upon its own resources. You can probably find this on other

00:27:08.219 - 00:27:26.170

campuses too. I remember in Seattle we had the same problem. Do you think this is part uh part of the problem of, of the all in which uh uh people with uh say only a bachelor's degree hold uh scholars, I don't know whether it's all, it's,

00:27:26.180 - 00:27:52.609

uh, I wish it were that I don't think it is that really, I think it's so good an American distrust one has for the intellectual, uh, wisely or not wisely. I don't know. But, uh, I think America has been interested in, not in theory but in

00:27:52.619 - 00:28:22.579

practice, in the empirical fact. And you will not find a president who is a professor in a way. Humphrey was defeated because of that. I'm sure um Stevenson was defeated for that reason. Um The intellectual is simply not highly regarded and lately because of these unrests

00:28:22.589 - 00:28:48.329

and because of the strife, I feel that this cleavage between non intellectual and intellectual has even become, has even been deepened. And I am a little bit afraid of that I come from Europe by the situation is slightly different. The intellectual is highly regarded or was

00:28:48.339 - 00:29:13.510

at least, let's say it this way, the intellectual has positions of power of strength. He influences society at large. Presidents and chancellors and prime ministers are intellectuals, former dons or, or you know, professors and so on. Um It seems that theory, there is emphasized more than

00:29:13.619 - 00:29:34.829

Berlin, maybe that has to do with the pioneer tradition that each man for his own. And you've got to show your birth by struggling in, by amassing money. Now, that's one of the things that the emission review is not too much interested in. So I think

00:29:35.189 - 00:30:06.250

uh this is just a wider view of the situation arise. We are intellectuals, we call it advantages and disadvantages. I think uh pers in the eye. Hi prefer this situation where oh Menzana Incorporation, that's something of course our, our great students, our students learn to but

00:30:06.260 - 00:30:33.089

very often a rise because we have such intellectual students. This is something that is forgotten. They're only concerned then talking and theorizing and perhaps not with too much ache. And I think that because of this realization, many of these I see more disturbed, more perturbed Children

00:30:33.209 - 00:30:55.119

should say Children and students are now making a definite effort to reach a second and they reach it on the basis of theory, which is something that businessman, what practical person doesn't want to. In other words, would be oh, movements of activism, social conscience and so

00:30:55.130 - 00:31:24.069

on starts somehow on the wrong basis. There are two, they are too uh effective, they are too intellectualized. So is the the the right man. He wants to give up thought, really thought for action. And this maybe is the American tradition probably that's going about. But

00:31:24.079 - 00:31:49.060

our students are handicapped. Also thorough, wanted really to go into the woods first. You can smell them, but you have to do that. I've often wondered really about this Leader Park Field, but I've often wondered about persons that are psychologically incapable of being extroverts. And many

00:31:49.069 - 00:32:20.670

of our people are, they're introverts, they're concerned with themselves, with their problems with, uh, matters of the mind and so on and, uh, they are, I think, hard put to identify themselves closely with others to submerge themselves in, simply in life. Right. Uh, these poor people

00:32:20.680 - 00:32:54.199

are undefined. Very difficult. And I think that's another thing why another reason perhaps why these student activists are not gonna be too sexist. They are strangest. I really, they are the part, it simply cause pep spray. Hi IQ. But it's a tragedy and they'll find out

00:32:54.209 - 00:33:20.160

that, um, not only a matter of intel intelligence, of course, it's a matter of simply of, um, the person that wants to, wants to be creative for that, that uh uh basically it's not really fitted to, uh, be involved completely with other people. I think these

00:33:20.170 - 00:33:45.479

people are going to, to be very unhappy and they discover that perhaps what they like to, to be what they are trying to achieve within society that this by nature they are incapable of doing. I think that's one of the, the ways too that, uh, I

00:33:45.489 - 00:34:06.099

feel that many of our students that the extremists you'll find out and it's really a rather tragic situation. I look at some of them, you know, see they are great idealists and they're great uh Popes and I know that really, they won't be able to, to

00:34:06.109 - 00:34:28.739

do it. They will again have to become isolation is, and then they withdraw and their small cliques and their small groups and they get high on drugs and so on, I suppose, become isolated again. But I'm sorry, this is really, has nothing to do with our

00:34:28.749 - 00:34:51.870

particular project. Well, uh perhaps it, it, it really does in a way. Uh I, I think you have very widely free insight, uh described the, the underlying uh tension that has been recorded in some of the student interviews. I uh I thought about it in this

00:34:51.879 - 00:35:07.530

way before, but I, I think your sensitivity to the admission is really uh well, I take all the time I can to talk to them to as many as want to see me. And I notice it in class, there are people that are looking for solutions.

00:35:07.540 - 00:35:30.370

And I think that the teacher really is not only committed to his discipline, he's also committed similar to the students, he could have helped me somehow or other. Um in other words, the teachers also psychologists. I however, I always stress the individual solution. That is my

00:35:30.379 - 00:35:49.399

personal conviction. I think that uh you are individuals, you, this is a sort of the heritage. I have my past reading and, and experiences that I, I'm also a creative person. I think that we have to find ourselves and lose our potential as well as we

00:35:49.409 - 00:36:09.040

can. And uh I don't think this is part of the generation gap at all because I want to be as young as I can be in. Uh I want to see you? Um, I don't feel old. Um, I think that it seemed to be a greater

00:36:09.050 - 00:36:32.719

awareness really, of person's resources. So I don't want to escape into society. Many of these young people too, they think they can escape their own problems by the changing society. But that's not my belief. I, in that way, I'm quite a political person as social. I

00:36:32.729 - 00:36:54.550

accept society in the way as it is and the situation as it is a realist that really, but, uh, um, I feel that we've got to make the best of things on the changing things as often as we can when they are sensible and, and the

00:36:54.560 - 00:37:14.620

many the profits from. But we do have responsibility also to ourselves. And, yeah. So the Socratic, uh, dictum know thyself, I think that the basis of the, it takes many years to know one now. And this is something these young people I haven't discovered very often

00:37:16.310 - 00:37:39.810

as though they want society to give them an identity when they first discover they need one. It's a vicious circle really. Yes. And they are then appalled. They are if society does not accept on the certain premises there. I mean, I think you can see that

00:37:39.820 - 00:38:09.199

in, in many of these, uh, young groups, the splinter groups that it is so ter terribly important to that. The Neo I've worked out, for instance, the SDS breakup just recently into two groups. Actually, they are probably hundreds of groups of these young uh it's too

00:38:09.209 - 00:38:31.709

bad, but uh the intellectuals also forced somehow to differentiate on manual points is something that a practical person would never be concerned with too much. There's something to be said with it. And that was the extreme honesty of what one regards as right and true. That

00:38:31.719 - 00:38:59.679

one has to, to, to stick to that and fight for it. That is very admirable. But speaking as a practical person, I think that's self defeating. In other words, what I really, well, what I criticize is the absolutist demand make. So OK, some of these people

00:39:00.560 - 00:39:27.810

mhm They start with a theory, as I said and everything is measured by it. It's Aetna won the way but it's self defeating. Yes. But I'm afraid very often that uh the theory is based on a very a narrow uh bit of uh inflammation information base

00:39:27.820 - 00:39:50.300

from which the theory is generated is frequently used. Yes. Yes. Now, um if we want to come to something more specific now, um what has interested me very much is the attempt and of course, this also influenced the masses in case the attempt by various groups,

00:39:50.669 - 00:40:20.810

large groups, faculty administration, administration, much less trust is also much less but the attempt by faculty and student to act politically. I think this is an important development in our history, not only in the States but also in Europe, in other countries. Uh The students want

00:40:20.820 - 00:40:50.959

to, I think we have more, say so and university matters. I think that's something that is perfectly all right. But after all, they are th educated about the dealt with the universities, they shouldn't just be considered objects and the faculty, too particular rise has been treated

00:40:51.149 - 00:41:20.889

like orphans. OK. I think we've had a tradition here. A very strong president and uh that's one of the reasons I joined the A up but I've been a long member of the A O ever since then. Yeah, started teaching for the end. But I believe

00:41:20.899 - 00:41:51.560

that at universities, the fact has to have some measure of control over curriculum, you know, the social advantages, French benefits, insurance and so on. And we just don't want to told it's part of him also of one's Republican Democratic sentiments. And I think the same goes

00:41:51.570 - 00:42:11.899

for the students and this is a national international movement particularly as far the students are concerned. Oh, I can, I do have experience also as far as German is concerned with the faculty rules of premium and the students, hundreds of years have had no say whatsoever

00:42:11.909 - 00:42:32.790

in the matter and all of the problems that we have in Europe these days and indirectly than by influence in the United States comes from the fact that there were no reforms that they were instituted today and only under pressure 100 battles very often. That's very

00:42:32.800 - 00:42:56.189

unfortunate. There have been models drawn up in Germany over the last 20 years. What should be done, there should be more professorships, there should be um a more equitable treatment of, of, of students, the individual student uh should not depend just on the say of one

00:42:56.199 - 00:43:17.199

man and so on. These were really very, very unfortunate situations and if only these changes had occurred as soon as it was felt that they were necessary because they've been necessary the last 100 years and everybody in the academic provision knew that they were necessary. But

00:43:17.209 - 00:43:45.229

uh if the older group had given in or had at least made some, you know, attempts to, to understand the uh changing uh views of the younger of the students, then I think a lot of people would have been spared. And this means that, you know,

00:43:45.260 - 00:44:03.419

there were in history, I mean, there was a time and in the middle ages for the students, for the university, they fired the professors because it's um that's impossible today and our universities are so complex now, it would be impossible. I think to change things also,

00:44:03.429 - 00:44:19.989

I don't think the faculty would really agree to that. Not anymore, even though they may, you know, they may pay lip service to, to, to, to this idea. But I don't think that's, I, I don't know how far we want to go. Uh uh uh in

00:44:20.000 - 00:44:43.679

our discussion, the rice situation, I did mention a strong president, strong administration who ruled everything out of his West pocket. Even Doctor Pitts. Did that. OK. That was the tradition here. But he realized that this had to go. Doctor Fitzer realized that I had several discussions

00:44:43.689 - 00:44:59.040

with him. As in fact, when I came here for my interview with him, I said, I'm used to ascend. I'm used to faculty meetings, but the faculty had had power. But some, some say says, what is the situation here? And he said, well, we are trying

00:44:59.050 - 00:45:21.040

to change that Was there much progress along that line? And uh uh the, let's see, do another 567 years. No, there was not really, there were many times when we were quite upset, for instance, new departments were instituted with our agreement without our approval, space science.

00:45:21.419 - 00:45:37.750

And so it was just a formality would have agreed, you know, but it, it, it led to pres I remember Professor Andrew Lewis, my predecessor, he got up at one of the meetings and he said that he was appalled by the situation and he really spoke

00:45:37.760 - 00:45:54.590

for most of us, I'm sure. And the a up has been trying to do this. We always sent out a bulletin to the board and also to present it. And I discussed this several times with Doctor Pitel and he knew which way the range was growing,

00:45:55.530 - 00:46:12.149

but people rather still. And that one thing I've al I I had always wanted for this university was some sort of a code that, you know, exactly what your responsibilities were that we knew the channels through which we had to work and so on. That's true.

00:46:13.169 - 00:46:29.500

I don't know who's in front. So he wanted to sidestep that issue. We've got a little booklet out with memoranda, but that's a way of handling university business. So I'm sure this will be one of the issues. It will be one of the points that will

00:46:29.510 - 00:46:48.340

be. But if we put on as matter in my little speech, I gave this general faculty meeting at the mass, I referred to to this, I said that I'm sure that um one would be reasons for this present. Tobacco is effective with no code. You don't

00:46:48.350 - 00:47:04.189

really know who is responsible for that. What other point did you make in that speech? I don't uh that meeting was not reported as were some of the other meetings that took place that, but should I give you a breakdown or do you want to discuss

00:47:04.199 - 00:47:22.639

it in general? Should I give you a sort of a chronological breakdown you that? Well, I mean, it really isn't, isn't necessary. II I had learned as most of us had that morning. I think we, we even received a memorandum from Dean Gordon that there was

00:47:22.649 - 00:47:42.090

to be a faculty meeting to announce the new president. Do you recall that memorandum uh was actually signed by Dean Gordon because I understand that he was out of town and couldn't be reached that day. The meeting back was called by doctor brought him, it was

00:47:42.100 - 00:48:00.199

official memorandum. I think it was a memorandum. It wasn't something by telephone. You know, my memory isn't that this is the first time I, I hadn't uh thought of that before. This is the first time. I really uh I'm not sure. Maybe it was just, maybe

00:48:00.209 - 00:48:19.169

what, maybe what happened was that we did get telephone messages. That may be it. I think that maybe because it was a very short, it was a meeting called at short notice and I've heard rumors about that too, in other words that they were afraid that

00:48:19.179 - 00:48:40.219

the newspapers had already gotten hold of it and Chattanooga had leaked the story. And so anyway, it broke at noon anyway. And the, all the radios or the radio broadcasts, uh, mentioned that, uh, Dean Masterson, Doctor Masterson had been chosen all this. I'm sure it was

00:48:40.229 - 00:48:58.469

a chip because we were, we, we should have been the first people to be from this. Uh, was this the first time you, uh, did you hear the news on Thursday or was the first time you heard that? I had no idea. Um, I heard rumors

00:49:00.010 - 00:49:21.899

that morning, somebody had told me that there was to be a, a meeting anyway. Right. I had heard that before I got the message, I think, but I didn't know who was renounced, renounced, who was to be the president. Do you have any suspicions or? No?

00:49:21.909 - 00:49:45.750

None. Um, I also heard the rumor that, uh, our committee had not been ask for advice. Now that upset me personally very much. And how did you hear that? Do you ever recall? I don't, I didn't know whether doctor bro, when I called you or not.

00:49:46.179 - 00:50:09.709

Oh, it's true. He may have caught me anyway. I had a conversation with him that morning. That's right by telephone. And he said he was worried. Is that all right? If I, if I mistake, but it's, it's best as my memory as I can recall, it

00:50:09.719 - 00:50:34.429

was worrying. And they, he also knew who wants to be the new president. And I would be very much surprised, but I had no idea. Um He also told me that he, ok, would like me to keep the lid on. I remember that phrase, how did

00:50:34.439 - 00:50:49.429

you interpret that? I interpreted that as, as, as he was afraid that there was going to be some sort of an outspoken criticism by the team, even some rash steps, some sort, I took it that way. And I told him I would try my best to

00:50:49.439 - 00:51:13.979

keep things calm and which I, I felt that he was really going to accept whoever it was. It was my first and in a way that influenced my own decision also naturally, because I like him and I have a great deal of respect for him. Well,

00:51:14.870 - 00:51:36.540

should I take it from there? So I had a meeting in the library. It was the Library Rededication Committee and we talked about this because by now the man had been mentioned, doctor message me their names. And the only thing I can recall is that you

00:51:36.649 - 00:52:03.550

diagnose were upset by this. But I had known that will do if I may mention the personalities. Uh but he didn't get along well for me as well. I had heard that before. So I said, keep it calm you better. This one? No, I had no

00:52:03.560 - 00:52:21.429

idea really what was going on. I, I'm a newcomer, you see, in a way, I've only been here seven years and I had no idea, a great deal of resentment that apparently had been built up in the early period against doctor Masterson. I've known him for

00:52:21.439 - 00:52:44.629

a number of years. He was the man who got me here. He was to me, we always really gentle and went out of his way really to help me build up the department. So, uh I knew he was a strong man. But again, I thought this

00:52:44.639 - 00:53:07.530

is kind of, you know, quality though the president should really have, but I had no idea about this widespread feeling of hostility to me. So, uh when the name became known and this meeting I believe was to take place at three o'clock, three o'clock, I sent

00:53:07.540 - 00:53:30.070

out a little memo to my faculty and the I told, uh told I said in the memo that uh I would like to see him in five minutes, a quarter of an hour before this meeting. So then, um most of us were there and I said

00:53:30.080 - 00:53:55.370

that uh the new presence, the name had been announced by the radio. It was Mr Masterson. I told him, I told him that, mm particularly Professor Lewis didn't get along to the Doctor Masterson because Doctor Masterson had made this German department, there was a German department

00:53:55.649 - 00:54:18.159

had made it part of a foreign language department and had uh really forced Mr Lewis to resign. I knew this and that uh some of my colleagues who had been here earlier, most of them have left. But in the meanwhile, that they would never, would never

00:54:18.169 - 00:54:41.899

have forgive to you. But I also said that uh if he has to be the president, I, I feel that uh one can work with him. Ok? I didn't really think that we would lose. Good. Excuse me. Just a moment. We're getting to the end of

00:54:41.909 - 00:55:08.550

this tape. Now I'd like to interrupt just to uh that kind of, I uh missed part of this about uh Doctor Lewis. Uh I'm not sure how to explain this situation. Could you? Uh Yes, you see. Um Doctor Lewis was the chairman of the German Department

00:55:08.560 - 00:55:38.280

since 1946 until 19 60 I think. And it uh got the masses and Estine decided to do away with independent departments and form just one modern language department. Department of Foreign Languages. He called in uh Professor mckenzie from Princeton to be the chairman. Now that did

00:55:38.290 - 00:56:04.209

not sit well with my colleagues and particularly with the this um Jim, this is how I came here in 1962. It was still a Department of Foreign Languages. Became as professor of German. That year, Professor Mackenzie left for an Eastern College and Doctor Pizza asked me

00:56:04.219 - 00:56:29.189

to become the chairman, a foreign name. You just I accepted only under the condition that after that one year, we would again have a your department in the French department and Spanish Russian other language department. And doctor and of the mass degree had the experiment not

00:56:29.199 - 00:56:47.270

worked out well to have everything in one foreign language department. I suppose it could have gone on like that. But I felt if I want to establish a graduate department, I want to have my graduate students identified with my, it's driven it, it's better than that.

00:56:50.439 - 00:57:19.590

Well, anyway, then come. Is that, is that clear then? So there was a a presentment of the older people but of these older people, only Professor Wilson was, yeah, was here. Um, Doctor Lewis died. Professor, we come to Iowa. Professor Lena had gone to cancers and

00:57:19.600 - 00:57:38.399

it was a small problem in those days. Now, we have 12 family members in those days. We only have about five or 60, Professor Melbourne is also here of the old group. Uh but he was a graduate student in those days. He's not an assistant professor.

00:57:39.979 - 00:58:13.419

Professor Wilbur would have been, uh, here at the time the mckinsey first came. I would think so. Yes, as a graduate student and he became a, an instructor, I think 62. Well, at that meeting, uh, that's something I should mention. And that is, we had four

00:58:13.429 - 00:58:39.909

people up for promotion this year. And I, what I said was that, uh, since I felt we could work with Doctor Masterson, um I thought it might be wise for them not to take an active part business. One never knows how the, what the result would

00:58:39.919 - 00:59:00.040

be that that should cool it and not expose themselves but leave it up to me to and to professors, no attendance to expose our cells to stick out of our neck. I think that's a good thing is and I it was just a non-political, you know,

00:59:00.050 - 00:59:23.350

remark, but it was taken differently later on course, it took on for a little overturn. So it was used there. Well, we still had 10 minutes and there was no discussion. So I join the meeting and then we went over there and at the door, I

00:59:23.360 - 00:59:49.709

went with Professor Wilson. Um we were asked to sign a petition and uh that's the first inkling I had of this great deal of antagonism towards Doctor Mason. I had no idea and I looked at it and I say that I looked at it hastily I

00:59:49.719 - 01:00:09.050

said I would like to, first of all see what goes on with the meeting before I decide whether I want to sign up. Well, Doctor Croesus opened the me, I was sitting between doctor he, he time and do because let me just around, you know, we

01:00:09.060 - 01:00:45.899

had a good time and, uh, well, then as you know, the, the meta broke Jack Wood read his petition which had been signed by 61 and there was no one else who said it a f so I didn't like the procedure. I really was upset by

01:00:45.909 - 01:01:04.340

the fact that the committee had not been consulted. And so I got up and I said, did I, how did you like that? And as in fact, the phrase I used was used in the newspaper several times. I noticed later, I said something that was outraged

01:01:04.350 - 01:01:36.409

as a member of the family, it was outraged and humiliated. Well, um, I did say however, that didn't seem to me that this was and oversight. We was the one by the board that they had the leading rods to choose. First that, uh, mm, it was

01:01:36.419 - 01:02:06.330

unintentional, unintentional miss downs part of sure. And that I accepted their decision. And for that reason, then I moved later that this petition is taken to people that which opposing the procedure, but in a manner of speaking, accepting the choice. Well, we went down to Gloria's

01:02:06.340 - 01:02:20.620

defeat and I was surrounded by my two friends who voted against me. How do you, how do you account for that? Uh Do you think the sentiment was there already or do you think a lot of the sentiment was mobilized as a result of the bleeding?

01:02:21.489 - 01:02:42.479

I think the sentiment was there. I understand later from talking to people that and, um, there have been a lot of telephone calls and people getting in touch with you, like with each, each other and mobilizing. As I always recall, the second part of the petition

01:02:42.489 - 01:03:05.520

was worded uh uh the uh emphatically uh request a reconsideration of the appointment. Uh How do you think this phrase was interpreted at the time that Masterson should, uh Masterson's appointment should be submitted to the faculty advisory committee to uh see if they would approve him

01:03:05.530 - 01:03:25.060

uh along with supposedly other candidates or, or what, what did the phrase actually mean to you? To me, it meant that we would not accept the appointment. That was the impression I and I acted on my face. Uh Have you since had reason to think that

01:03:25.070 - 01:03:43.699

anyone else viewed it any differently or do you think this was the way it was interpreted at the time by almost everyone who voted to uh against Doctor Masterson on point number two of the petition of the benign 9197 was n this is one name I

01:03:43.729 - 01:04:14.100

thought you, you mean uh there might be an interpretation of the effect that it should be returned to committee and that the committee then may except him. No, that never dawned on me. Really. I thought it wasn't outright to actor of a retail. I mean, it's

01:04:14.110 - 01:04:40.040

gone too fast there person. But that was the only impression I had. Well, now, let me see then, um, before we leave the subject of this meeting, I would be interested in you, uh, and reactions to, uh, to the faculties, reception for instance of uh herbal

01:04:40.320 - 01:04:59.399

of speech. Uh Did you have any, does anything stand out in your mind? Uh Yes, I thought it was a very inept speech. Yeah, I had the feeling that uh Mr Allen could not express himself perfectly and that he made a very bad impression on the

01:04:59.409 - 01:05:18.050

fact that and also when deter got up, you may have heard about that. He, he wanted to, yes, he, he, he wanted to move that we accept and that we adjourn he always does that he likes to adjourn meetings. I felt that no, we couldn't, we

01:05:18.060 - 01:05:50.879

had to discuss this matter. Well, that's after, after that then I, I, but I was astounded by the fact that there was so Australia but uh pan the uh the faculty that was supposed to Mr Masters that they uh I had the feeling that they had

01:05:50.889 - 01:06:14.360

been organized before. I mean, I thought you had 61 signatures on the, on the petition. And at very short notice that I was really surprised then when, uh, the, the mo my, my one motion to split when this was accepted, I thought, well, we're going to

01:06:14.370 - 01:06:35.270

win this anyway because they were, as you said, 90 some odd, 97. Yes. They, they, yes, yes. But at that time, they, the, I, I thought, well, they, they, they poop on this. Really? I was very surprised. And when he went down on this particular motion,

01:06:35.290 - 01:06:59.209

we, I shouldn't say we because I didn't talk to anyone before, uh, when it was voted down. And I got up and said, II, I asked for a recall and Doctor Krohe didn't want to accept that he ruled the way he, yeah, rule this meeting with

01:06:59.219 - 01:07:17.229

a rather heavy hand somewhat. It was probably on edge. And of course, it was that he had been very ill before that maybe the team go. If he had been here, he could have landed in time, then there were some bugs. And, um, if he had

01:07:17.239 - 01:07:33.840

been there, it might have gone differently. Who knows when you ask for a recall? Uh, was this because you were dissatisfied with the way that what was counted or, uh, was it by counting by hand or what's going by? And, uh, I noticed a lot of

01:07:33.850 - 01:07:59.929

laboring going on just by looking at expression and hands going up and down. I would have like to what happened. But I also thought that the people did not understand my emotion it was not repeated. There were two motions, you see, I felt that it should

01:07:59.939 - 01:08:18.269

have been made clear by Doctor Cr Eco, the hood and the motion so on again. And uh that was not done. That's why I got out. Sure, as you were looking around, uh at uh the hands going up and down the wavering, uh, as you, as

01:08:18.278 - 01:08:37.029

you've said, did, did any impression cross your mind about uh the, the current of, um, of influence or the flow of communication? Was, was this a case of the younger faculty, uh, sort of looking to see what the seniors were doing, repeating and particularly looking at

01:08:37.040 - 01:08:57.629

the English Department. They were sitting right behind behind us. It was probably they sort of sit behind you in mass. Uh Yes. Uh J Warden Will out Elm Grove, I think famous city behind us. And of course, Jake Ward and Ivy were both very, very excited

01:08:59.859 - 01:09:19.609

naturally. How do you account for the fact that people were watching the English Department? Is this, is this a bellwether, uh, kind of an apartment address or? Uh, I had the feeling that much of the hostility came from the, and also the history department. I discussed

01:09:19.620 - 01:09:43.258

it with Doctor Hyman before that. He, I had heard about Doctor Masterson from his historians and the historians didn't like, I'd learned that later too. They didn't like d the master in a candy. He had no, it's used a heavy hand in running the department as

01:09:43.298 - 01:10:05.770

a team that was his department. And I know that doctor A was very upset by Doctor Masterson. He told me so later I had no idea what these things you see was the chairman, chairman, whom Doctor Masterson called in while he was. Is there any medication

01:10:05.839 - 01:10:28.040

five or, or pain things or he insisted that certain recommendations he made should be followed by the department by Dr Ave. And of course they do was very well. It doesn't sit well with any chairman. And the other things you know about uh the reasons given

01:10:28.049 - 01:11:00.959

data. I thought they were second. I mean that he didn't have a national reputation. I think it was simply a medical. That's true. The man being too well known and having acted. Yeah. Yeah. Not too well in the past. And that, that engendered this antagonism. Perhaps

01:11:00.970 - 01:11:23.500

there was also the secondary reasoning is that he was a human instrument, a natural scientist which has been our traditionally advance that also must have influence some people in the other division. But primarily I think it was his character that in this, no, I had no

01:11:23.509 - 01:11:41.649

idea about this side of his character. When you say this out of his character, are you referring to his heavy handed and to this, I would call it the authoritarian procedures he followed. I have never had this impression of a man. I talked to him frankly

01:11:41.660 - 01:12:07.850

and, and I always uh recent, same as I did with Doctor Pinson and he gave us money, give us anything they want to. Do you think this is the wrong impression? Then there are too many instances at first after these events. And as a matter of

01:12:07.859 - 01:12:31.609

fact, I then changed my mind too later on. Did anyone suggest at the time that, uh, you recall that the function of a being, things were different from that of the, uh the chief executive? Um Well, meaning that his three years as president of the University

01:12:31.620 - 01:12:50.259

of Chattanooga is uh coinciding with a period of commended student unrest where every chief executive of the university must uh re evaluate uh his situation. Anyone suggest that maybe Masterson was not the same kind of thing now that he had been? No, you see, I was

01:12:50.270 - 01:13:14.379

away for two days and I couldn't, she's in the pen. Um So we were just talking about um is it, is it uh did, did you hear anyone mention uh that perhaps the doctor uh was a different man? No, I think not. He had mentioned, you

01:13:14.390 - 01:13:38.490

see, I, I uh but I wasn't there for two days and uh I really didn't discuss this aspect uh of this character. I had a long discussion later on at the master's house at low rise College, but there was a few days after that, but I

01:13:38.500 - 01:13:56.430

don't think this came um that, that was an oversight in a way, but it wouldn't have changed methods anyway. I mean, by that time positions had been taken. And as a matter of fact, I never, I had the impression that, uh, people had a close mind.

01:13:57.299 - 01:14:22.270

I didn't want to see any good sides, you know. Uh, and again, my character being what it is spoke for him a second time public. But I suppose we'll come to that when we put a chronology, right. So we're back to the meeting then I didn't

01:14:22.350 - 01:14:48.990

have any other questions that, um, well, Joe Wilson voted against this and how he did. I don't know how my young people vote it. I suppose they want it to against you. Yeah, I assume so. Was there anything in Doctor Braxton's speech that, uh, would have

01:14:49.000 - 01:15:17.629

encouraged a no vote on the second part of the patric? Looking back to the eye? I've thought of that and I, I think that was, it was extremely, he was abrupt and close mouth. He give a fair estimate of the fact that this committee had been

01:15:17.640 - 01:15:40.129

bypassed. But when he was asked several questions, he only answered. Yes and no. And he made the impression of being rather disgruntled, which could, uh, have influenced the, some positions. I don't, I've wondered about that because I couldn't quite see through his skin if one can

01:15:40.140 - 01:15:56.049

use that name and with his stand, because I was thinking my goodness in the morning, you know, we had this conversation, keep the lid on and here, I don't know where he stood and of course, he, he didn't have to vote because it was counting. Go

01:15:56.060 - 01:16:19.649

ahead. Which in a way was a problem. Unfortunately, this was my view of the method was concerned. I would like to register. I wondered about this and I know that's where other people have been wondering about that. My, my impression is, uh, and I would like

01:16:19.660 - 01:16:38.859

you to comment on this feeling. My impression is doctor, he has a great deal of prestige. He's extremely well active. And that uh it's possible that uh that people may even react to what they conceive to be his position, whether they're correct or not possible. Uh

01:16:39.310 - 01:17:00.250

Do you think that this could have played a part in the number that if they, if they could have anticipated from this manner that uh he was down on the, on the uh the selection here? I mean, to me it's possible, but I must say that

01:17:00.259 - 01:17:27.879

never struck that never crossed my mind. I only wondered what is his own point of view because I have a great deal of respect for him. Did uh in any of your conversations with Doctor Robson? Uh Do you know how far is that you this? Yes,

01:17:27.890 - 01:17:52.779

he told me it was several days, I think Wednesday maybe. And then later on, I also heard that Doctor Masterson had been here on campus even a month before and had been seen by several people I believe, including Doctor Dowen. I'm not sure. And people put

01:17:52.790 - 01:18:06.950

things together. They told me later, actually, after these events, they put two and two together, they were wondering, why was he here? I took it down. I mentioned that he called him up and wanted to know something with the English Department, how he should do something

01:18:07.810 - 01:18:39.390

out there in Chattanooga. So I put up down and told me that he had the feeling that he was making overtures to, to get him over to his side. Interesting. It was hindsight. It's better than foresighted situation. It's safer. Yes. Well, then, um, Saturday morning we

01:18:39.399 - 01:19:05.500

had a meeting, yeah, professional meeting of the American Association of Teachers of German, of the local chapter. And there were several of my young people there and I talked to one of them about this business and I told him that, yeah, probably the fat was in

01:19:05.509 - 01:19:25.910

the fire. Now, how, uh, how did you mean that that was in the thyroid? Was he one of the four up for promotion? Uh, did, did it refer to that or he was just referring to, uh, hopefully the conflict you? Ok. He didn't indicate to me

01:19:25.919 - 01:19:54.040

where he stood. And I may have said that I didn't particularly care for Doctor Masterson as a person, but I didn't know where he stood. Really? It was Doctor Cook. Ok. But there was, I mean, we were all jolly and there was no intimation at all.

01:19:54.049 - 01:20:12.970

If there was some sort of political split between my young people and my son, I wouldn't say young people. There was always, uh. Mhm. And then we went to my family and I, we left and I had no idea what was going on. We came back

01:20:12.979 - 01:20:28.700

Sunday, Sunday night. So, you left campus before the TJ at the gym on Saturday. I had no idea what was going. And then Sunday evening, uh, did you hear anything then? Yes, there were lots of phone calls at home. My mother in law had stayed behind

01:20:30.509 - 01:20:47.069

and, uh, that was a really terrible evening for me because my son had come back with very high fever with that. That was one of the reasons we came back early. We wanted to stay out Monday. He had 103. So I called the physician and he

01:20:47.080 - 01:21:04.859

was waiting for his call back. He wanted to see, he wanted to tell us when he, uh, he should come up to his home or so. So during that time to be quite frank and I got a phone call to the effect. There was going to

01:21:04.870 - 01:21:32.060

be a strike. I should do my best to dissuade people and who did this call come, um, from doctor. No, it, he and doctor, we were going to investigate whether this was true. Did I might want to call some people just wait then from taking part

01:21:32.069 - 01:21:55.640

in. And, uh, that's what I did caught my poor little people that have promo thinking of them. I told him that same thing. I didn't reach ma, I left cryptic messages, but I reached to and I said, uh, also Doctor Nova had said that, uh, he

01:21:55.649 - 01:22:25.640

felt it was wise if we didn't discuss politics in class. Well, so I passed this information. I said, if possible discuss not q matters, if they must, they should do it in German. No, he of the cool things, right? And it, I checked on that later.

01:22:25.649 - 01:22:46.990

It really, I mean, there is a rule in the a ut yeah, statement on academic field that family member shoot as much as possible while discussing the political matter. Well, that's a very good reason for that. Uh It, it, you know, it can be a, a

01:22:47.229 - 01:23:09.370

throne for political indoctrination uh uh that, well, looking at this, you sign, well, it depends on you, I suppose interpretation of politics and what is and not and where you are, they, I know that do go and talk to somebody and they said, well, this is

01:23:09.379 - 01:23:31.209

not politics, this is the university, this is part of teaching. Well, yeah, you can draw it man. Well, anyway, that is beside the point. Um These are the statements I made in my life is uh witness to the fact that I said, please, but my young

01:23:31.220 - 01:23:54.479

people use that you see against me later on. I violated all principles of academic freedom. It was very unfortunate because I see that didn't, it was just May 12. On the basis of the inflammation I had, it was irritating it. And this is part of the

01:23:54.490 - 01:24:11.560

problems we have in the department here. They used this part, they were, they were vulnerable and you were not, you had attempted to run and carry them back on their hand. And I was really concerned only about procedural matters. It was a really interesting personality, but

01:24:11.569 - 01:24:31.029

that was, at that time, I thought of that only, you know, I actually got my neck and say something bad about the, the vein which this was in. So I had heard on the radio that, uh, there was to be a meeting in my college world

01:24:31.040 - 01:24:49.689

Rise College. I'm an associate there and I went there and I'm was late because of the doctor's visit. And the past president of the Rise comes up to me and I was walking in and he asked me whether I wanted to say if you live, the

01:24:49.799 - 01:25:12.089

past present is, um, oh God, what's his name? Tom Plant? That's right. Right. And I always like to talk, you know, theres no hazard. So I said, all right, I'll save a few minutes. So I opened my big mouth again, not having heard what went on

01:25:12.100 - 01:25:30.890

before because I was late and I said that to her. Fortunately or unfortunately, I had been afraid these last two days. I don't know what had happened. But I'd just like to talk to say a few words as objectively as I could. I also used the

01:25:31.089 - 01:25:56.879

phrase let us reason together. And then I said that I felt that doctor Masterson, uh what's the under dog now? And that I thought of him as a person and not as I do. And that it must be a very grievous blow to him to, as

01:25:56.890 - 01:26:30.430

a person again, to uh to be so vilified. I put some reports in the meanwhile too. So turn 11 gets up, he uh makes an impassioned plea for students to my mind, student power and so on and writes, having been needless to also formulate the university

01:26:30.439 - 01:27:07.080

policy and not having to rely on the board of trustees during the discussion that followed them, there were several more species I learned that too, politics should be discussed and in classes that this was happening formulated by the student uh group study colleges. Another thing about

01:27:07.290 - 01:27:30.890

Doctor Masterson was mentioned, um blame me think it was at that meeting with my general faculty meeting two days before that he was incapable of being a president and it's by, by by nature or something like that. I've forgotten who made this statement has been, you

01:27:30.899 - 01:28:01.089

know, for me, it was too fair. I did mention at that meeting this Sunday evening that I thought it rather strange. I heard the show the way too that at the first student meeting only seven people. It proof of the domestic. But I thought that was,

01:28:02.140 - 01:28:29.930

that should, something which I didn't particularly like there was so little descent I couldn't imagine, couldn't understand it because it did not even approach the kind of figures we had at the skin that could be. So, did you attend, did you attempt to explain that in

01:28:29.939 - 01:28:55.000

your speech? Uh, or, I mean, to account for the little dissent, but I don't remember if I did, I probably said something about um, well, its it was that they went along with the faculty with this one faction too strongly. I don't know whether I said

01:28:55.009 - 01:29:17.779

or not looking back on it. Now. Uh Are there any other possible explanations that have, that have occurred to you since? But it is a rather extraordinary thing because it just, well, this is just a general thing again. Uh Then there was only a number, not

01:29:17.790 - 01:29:49.339

the entire student body went to this meeting. I think they have a 1200 some odd students. And uh there's something that something I've learned myself. Yeah, as a so unfortunate side effect of this entire business at the a up meeting, for instance, that liberal people in

01:29:49.350 - 01:30:10.209

a way it can be terribly liberal too. And you have people together that uh as a, as a group and we know about that because no psychology and so they lose identity as persons. So they don't think anymore, but they are happy to, to, to lose

01:30:10.220 - 01:30:29.410

themselves and in a, in a group and it takes a lot of courage to go against them. And that's one of the reasons why I lean nose towards the the other side. Really. At least I say, what do you say? Because I've gone through the experiences

01:30:29.419 - 01:30:54.560

again, my own background in Germany, but this is happening there. I hate to become a wrong person but I don't know whether this is really fair in this particular the incident. It may be a but I felt also that uh there was because they sound on

01:30:54.569 - 01:31:24.870

me later much later when I heard about it great influence than this particular faculty faction had taken and uh working together with students and perhaps instru them too much to this side to these young people can still be in insurance. I think it really, as I

01:31:24.879 - 01:31:47.200

said, it is a matter of character I tend towards well see both sides. So pride myself on being a literary historian and I'm not as convinced as some of my other colleagues are the rightness of the decision or the rightness of the, of the cause. OK,

01:31:49.669 - 01:32:13.930

tend to be quite objective, but I'm sure it has to do with my experience. I mean, again, my own cat, but there is something very intimidating about uh an almost unanimous majority. I hated the idea really because I thought my goodness, even though there were 1200

01:32:13.939 - 01:32:35.229

students there, right, students they should use there. There, there should be some dissent, there should be some dissent, let's say that way, there should be some opposition. This was really frightening. That's what I said. And the pa I I forgotten thought about this. I, I may

01:32:35.240 - 01:32:50.709

have said that it showed to me a lack of judgment somewhere and then a young man got up, it was the end of the meeting and I said, I noticed sir, that you are extremely on the defensive. And I said, and I sir noticed that you

01:32:50.720 - 01:33:07.339

are extremely on the offensive that brought the house down and it was still a very jolly, you know, jolly meeting. And I always had this feeling that it was good natured. I mean, even I wasn't a very small minority really, they treated me well. I suppose

01:33:07.350 - 01:33:29.620

they still like me. I hope my students like me. I know my credits. They came all around to me and in spite of the rumors that have been going on about me in my own department. So there was Sunday evening and then I really don't want

01:33:29.629 - 01:33:53.419

to go into my own departmental measures because I, as I said, I know, I feel that I've become the full guy for quite a few days. There have been many plots in my own department before this master business appeared, any kind of administrator these days. Not

01:33:53.430 - 01:34:12.419

long. But um it's very unfortunate situation and I now wish I had resigned a year ago. I also wish I had not been here that Sunday because I'm sure that that was one of the things that was used against me and I had several letters, you

01:34:12.430 - 01:34:32.029

know, and things of that sort by people, members of the department told me that they'd been coded this time, but we don't want the quarantine the grim details of that. That's another story to my mind, family, family stories and thats just institutional. We should stick to.

01:34:34.629 - 01:34:52.009

Did you receive any other calls that Sunday night after the meeting was over or did the next thing you see the meeting Sunday wasn't book? Oh, yes, I should mention this. But then after the meeting was adjourned group of the associates, they're all good friends as

01:34:52.029 - 01:35:15.520

well. We went the master, we had some train and we stayed there until three o'clock and they, they, these people really explained the situation to me. I had no idea what was going on that. Um uh There was so much opposition to Doctor Mays just you

01:35:15.540 - 01:35:36.890

mean that? And I felt though I'm more interested in Rice University really? And that's where minorities lie than in Doctor Masterson. Uh I had never really been occupied with the problem of Doctor Masterson. I had only been occupied with the problem of procedure and the legality

01:35:38.049 - 01:35:58.020

and I still thought, you know, b of Chris used and then you can rise and I that exactly what I said before. You know that the fact. Well, um, uh, uh, it was then also said that there would be a ballot the next day and I

01:36:00.870 - 01:36:15.540

knew I was then going to vote against optimist. Do you recall the wording of the, or I think I decided on the wording of the ballot, uh, at that time. Did it, do you recall whether it contained the phrase, which it contained the next day? And

01:36:15.549 - 01:36:33.839

that was under the under the present circumstances? No, this was suggested, I think by several people, I believe doctor four of them was on. Yeah. No, I thought you, I thought it was very smart. It was a smart man because there were others who may not,

01:36:34.040 - 01:37:04.600

you know, uh like me, I mean, yeah. Oh, might not have voted on this business although I believe I would have voted anyway against him. So the next day we had our meeting and uh the department uh voted the same way with one extension. Gentleman might

01:37:04.609 - 01:37:28.439

not be here at all during these days. You mean it was unanimous vote on both issues in the environment? The then I, I attended these depart these chairman's meeting. This is something I should also bring out. Maybe with team go. We all every afternoon, I think

01:37:28.450 - 01:37:55.220

for two or three days, we met at the first meeting uh to uh impress upon him and Mr Scarron, the seriousness of the opposition on the on the campus. Um I did refer to the fact that some young people in my department had accused me of

01:37:55.549 - 01:38:11.859

unduly influencing them. And I felt that they should be brought to the attention of the board of trustees. Just by that time, it was quite obvious to me, the different message was couldn't, couldn't, couldn't capture. Well, we were just to return to what we were saying.

01:38:11.870 - 01:38:28.669

Um You were talking about the meeting of the department chairman with um Dean Go and Gordon and at this time, you had mentioned your comments to the all of the people in your department. Uh No, not actually that but the fact that they accused me of

01:38:28.680 - 01:38:58.660

violating all principles of academic freedom in order to impress upon Dean Gordon and Mr Warren Scarron serious that really on the situation. Well, I don't really know what kind of other, what what other matters you, you wish to one thing that you heard to me that

01:38:58.669 - 01:39:16.040

we were talking about just a moment ago, um was the wording of the ballot. Um The wording of the ballot um was very shrewd in the point of view of garnering, garnering the greatest number of negative votes on the first part of the uh of the

01:39:16.049 - 01:39:32.680

ballot. Do you think that was the general intention of everyone at that time to get as strong a uh a negative o is possible? No, I don't think so. I, I mean, I just believe that by that time really, Doctor Masterson could not have worked here.

01:39:33.299 - 01:40:01.359

And, uh, I don't think there was people that the s is political perhaps as you seem to make them out. Uh, it could be but I don't really know who are the people who drew up this, this, this balance. I really, I have no strong feelings

01:40:01.370 - 01:40:22.660

about factions on the campus. I acted as a private individual, really as a professor. And I felt that was my responsibility. I did not affiliate with any group. Did it ever cross your mind? Uh, feeling this way that, uh, part of the activities or there's at

01:40:22.669 - 01:40:46.759

least one faction of it certainly gave the reappearance of being, uh, a matter of tactics. It was that majority effects. I feel they, they really knew what they were doing. I, but again, I don't know who the people involved are or where the trouble is. I,

01:40:47.069 - 01:41:13.959

my friends are generally not too interested in politics and we don't discuss politics or if it's something I'm not particularly interested in, I am for that reason to a poor politician. Also, I act very much on, you know, on impulse. I think politicians generally don't plan

01:41:13.970 - 01:41:45.959

things. So, uh, the people that were active, I think a not among my frame, I know them. I know their names. At least I have a suspicion that one or two. Ok. Let me ask you a rather hypothetical question. Uh, but, um, you might feel free

01:41:45.970 - 01:42:10.629

to answer if, uh, if the situation had been, uh, well, let me find it this way. If you were to name, say three or four key individuals in your impression. All right, whose change of opinion, or if, if they had taken the opposite opinion than the

01:42:10.640 - 01:42:37.430

one they took, um, would have, uh, reversed the whole controversy which three or four people within. Now, I think I would say Franz Brat, but I didn't know at the beginning whether he knew himself where he was going. The second name might be a Grove. Anyway,

01:42:41.430 - 01:43:19.839

third name might be possibly John Rare. But I don't know how much um influence he really had in his department. Full name. I don't know the natural scientists too. Well. There must be some key people. How do you account for the influence of young men like

01:43:19.850 - 01:43:45.169

Ellen Grove? For instance, where does, where does his influence? What does his influence stem from? I think he has a release? I mean, he, he, he's very much like some of the other young people I know on our campus, particularly in the humanities. If I may

01:43:45.180 - 01:44:15.540

generalize, they are absolutists, they have a certain set of values, the idea of this, which is very commendable, but they lack experience and they certainly lack humility and kindness. Basically, they're not really interested in people. Sorry. This sounds a little bit critical, the interest in ideals.

01:44:16.379 - 01:44:36.649

Well, that's something that I don't particularly careful. That's not the way I organize my life I'm interested in the individual. And uh I have some of these young, very bright people in my own department. They set up a, a strong man referring to my own situation

01:44:36.799 - 01:45:00.140

and they knock me down, but they never really bothered to think of me or of anyone else as, as people. It's, um, this is one of the things that I have against intellectual, they're acting out their own, uh their own fears or their own inhibitions and

01:45:00.149 - 01:45:29.799

aggressions and uh uh they uh binoculars. I'm sorry to say that. But Mr Graham, I'm a little bit afraid of this kind. OK? I deal with him. No, you know, played by sugar. Oh Is that right? Which is good? And that's uh don't call us. It's,

01:45:30.410 - 01:46:00.589

that's the name of the same that's based on it. And the one of the importance dramatis persona in that. Ok. It's Maki Pula who can be interpreted as an as an idealist and wonderful individual, but who at one time says to the king whose advisor he's

01:46:01.029 - 01:46:26.589

to become. Once you have the right point of view, then you should insist that throughout your kingdom, this point of view obtains. And throughout the group, there is a danger on, on that side, on the idealistic side of being tyrannical, authoritative. And this is a complex

01:46:26.600 - 01:46:59.240

that a matter of discussion in the 18th century who saw himself as a person like that didn't like people but loved mankind to my mind it is extremely dangerous kind of food. No. You know who he is. It, it's a, it's a trend that we have,

01:46:59.250 - 01:47:25.540

um, particularly among intellectuals and I'm sure this also shoulder at that particular point in our small crisis here on campus. I think that is something I generally identified with being young. I mean, I went through this myself and multiple causes and I was extremely sure of

01:47:25.549 - 01:47:42.220

myself, knew exactly what was going to happen, what I was going to do in the program. I remember we blew up many festivals by the dozens. I think when I was a young man, but that's something that should outgrow it. I hope all of these people

01:47:42.229 - 01:48:04.250

will outgrow it. It makes for a lot of intolerance and you have a madness. Some people in the world, bro, I was gonna suggest that the trouble with, with, with that optimism is that they're reproducing themselves as quickly as they can in terms of their, their

01:48:04.259 - 01:48:26.450

mother, you know, their blood. But you see it goes back again to this one issue we discussed at the beginning, the empirical versus the, the theoretical in it. But I have to feel it, people that are somewhere or other away from the mainstream of life on

01:48:26.459 - 01:48:57.189

an ivory tower situation that some by their natures uh feel themselves excluded and want to take part in practical affairs. But they have a blueprint for everything. The, the bad part of it. They know all the answers. It's tolerance p your things. I've always wanted to

01:48:57.200 - 01:49:31.700

be, you know, just live and let live. I suppose they are more there and their goals are as fine really as those of other people. It's just that they know all the answers big. I suppose this did play, uh, pot in our, kept the situation. These

01:49:31.709 - 01:49:56.040

people knew exactly what was going on. I was, I found it so ironical. Then after uh Doctor Masterson with school, this was made known to us at a meeting of the chairman, I think it was a bit on Tuesday. Some of us collected outside later and

01:49:56.049 - 01:50:16.799

they all said we are so terribly sorry. Now about Doctor Masterson, how will you take this and so on? And it seemed to me that it was the typical American reaction. You cut off their heads. You remember this cartoon where by further there are two people

01:50:16.810 - 01:50:38.520

fighting with swords and the one is just part of the other fellow's head and it says two shape. I recall that. But, but I mean, you know, it, it, it, it, I thought of that. The connection there is simply that's it. You've got all out to

01:50:38.529 - 01:51:07.089

cut somebody down and then somewhere or other, you moral nature takes so long. You feel sorry, but not enough. If you have your way, it's easy to be compassionate, isn't it? That's right. I don't really know how mu how widespread uh the feeling was of supporting

01:51:08.089 - 01:51:27.979

Doctor Masterson. I think there's a, one could say a few things about that. I think the old times were with Doctor Masterson. Yeah. So many of them, I would think those who had been here for the last 4050 years, very old times because they were used

01:51:27.990 - 01:51:51.770

to the situation head rise that someone was appointed president and he would run the show. And I understand that this really was the way in which the past presidents had been selected by the board. Even of Pitzer, it was all sealed, signed, sealed and delivered. And

01:51:51.779 - 01:52:10.609

then the committee was asked afterwards whether they approved. Although I think there was a report in one of the newspapers, maybe the rise pressure to the effect that this committee had been consulted. But I understand from some people who had been members of the committee that

01:52:10.620 - 01:52:28.560

they had been consulted after the event. So maybe this was used also as a type of propaganda, you know, because uh I think maybe I'm not to talk with these people. Uh that uh I think you have to talk to Professor Chapman. Ok. No, I didn't

01:52:28.569 - 01:52:56.129

hear it from him directly. I heard it through Alex Tesler. But shall we perhaps discuss some of the long range rage of this? Yes. No. Uh I've been wondering about this, this problem. I, I really think it so uh remained with us for quite some time.

01:52:56.140 - 01:53:22.680

I, I had a, someone told me that Doctor Krona thinks that as far as the community is concerned, it will take five years for them to overcome. Yeah, the reports about our or, um, victory, um, particularly the alumni, apparently quite a few of them are, are

01:53:22.689 - 01:53:43.580

certain. And I have a neighbor right across from me, an engineer, right, uh, product who, uh, oh, I had a hard time convincing that rice was no longer the kind of place it had been. And uh he's not convinced us yet that uh what happened here

01:53:43.589 - 01:54:02.930

was the best thing. He's in business. And I mean, he says, oh my goodness, if you but board of trustees, they rule the the rules and whether they appoint him, that's the name that should be. And I think the alumni also feel that Doctor Massey was

01:54:02.939 - 01:54:26.350

one of them comes from an old established family here. Well, comes from Houston home tomboy makes good, you know, I think that would appeal to them rather than any other kind of so I can. So uh it's very hard to argue. There are others, of course,

01:54:26.359 - 01:54:54.930

naturally. Yeah, they say uh rice is there anything else whatever has happened has happened? But all the time, this distrust of the older generation towards the younger generation, I made the remark about five years. Uh Did you have the impression that he was thinking uh I

01:54:54.939 - 01:55:13.350

didn't hear him? I it was told me or something. Uh tell you heard, did you have the idea that this, that this, uh, that he believed this might affect uh alumni contributions, that it might affect the university in a very physical way. And that's the thing

01:55:13.359 - 01:55:35.200

I've heard that, uh, that, uh, some people have withdrawn their pledges. That is something I heard. But of course some other results, uh, could very well be that, uh, I, this is, these are all rumors, I don't know whether you are interested in things of that

01:55:35.209 - 01:55:52.600

sort. First of all, I know that after Doctor Pitzer left, which I personally was really very sorry to see because I had the highest regard for him and the way we could see him, the Stanford affair was just wonderful and shows that he really knows how

01:55:52.609 - 01:56:09.689

to go about things. And also his criticism on the board in his letter to the faculty, I think it was quite obvious he had tried to, to make this a great establishment, he tried to, to get support from, from the state for fellowships. And this is

01:56:09.729 - 01:56:27.580

the way I'm sure you'll have to know and he was a more liberal kind of a president than I personally had given him credit for. This is something that surprised me very much later. I heard, for instance, he had arguments with the board about certain things.

01:56:27.589 - 01:56:46.120

I never, never thought really that the board had not been behind him 100% in his suit for integration. I thought this was the board that had a lot of this, but it turns out that it was Doctor Pitzer who had made this a condition. I think

01:56:46.129 - 01:57:10.720

it was all for just raising fees and so on over these, the letters and report that really want. But anyway, one of the other results would perhaps be because of the situation that we have now with an acting president. Some people may need, but they'll go

01:57:10.729 - 01:57:26.850

to another campus and they all have the same problems. I mean, I hear from a large state universities, the colleagues are very unh, I don't know whether they hold classes or not the next day. I think one good thing should be said about rising, this connection,

01:57:26.859 - 01:57:52.319

about our students, think of the hole they are sensible and you can talk to and they, I didn't say, ok, the way this whole matter was handled after the event, I think this was done. Good. Take my hat off to Mr Scar and say he did

01:57:52.379 - 01:58:23.459

a few kept things he kept the lid on. That was wonderful. And I've always discussed, I mean, discussed these matters with my students, talk plainly to him, but I, I'm telling you now to the some other opinions but on the whole, I think the middle of

01:58:23.470 - 01:58:51.240

the road on a few, OK, prevailed. And I know some of the so p for Alexander, for instance, the new president that a r uh A student of mine, we discussed things very frankly. And she is a very good, yes. Some other students will take a

01:58:51.250 - 01:59:10.750

different point of view. Very strange too. They come from smaller places. So, let's say in East Texas they are outspoken radicals. I can't really understand it. Ok. I, I suppose I can understand it. I mean, they, it's the first time they're in a big city in

01:59:10.770 - 01:59:37.979

a degrading environment here and they probably want to, uh, destroy their, their roots somehow. Uh Yes, rejection. Well, some people react one way others react another way. I mean, it's hard to see which way there but they'll outflow it. I mean, at least very radical views

01:59:44.470 - 02:00:10.589

during later events. Then let's say that the Freeman capes or um what was it? Another situation? The Freeman was one and I think there was another one that perturbed everybody there. I forgotten. Well, that you have in mind, possibly the uh matter about the budget too.

02:00:12.700 - 02:00:36.990

No, no, that wasn't me. It was, I think it was primarily per the, the, the Freeman case. Uh these young people, OK. The tool that I'm thinking of, they um had set up a picture of Frank Vander as the president, which in no way differed from

02:00:37.000 - 02:00:57.279

the picture. They had said, Doctor Masterson, they are again generalizing and they say this is the administration and there's no communication and there's uh this must be broken and so on. I tried to reason these people and some of the students today but it's very hard

02:00:57.290 - 02:01:32.930

to do. So. Again, this is just, I suppose, human nature to him. Oh, I shouldn't say human but it's just the spectrum. Let's say that we, we find OK, some pals or generalization absolutist views. This is stupid. I, uh, think that uh next year will be

02:01:33.140 - 02:02:15.000

interesting years. It rises. I just hope that things can go smoothly. A major problem. It's important that one has um, communication. OK. doke that uh things out much of or problems in the department or connected with the medicine in case and methods of communication. Misconceptions. It

02:02:15.009 - 02:02:32.609

seems so easy to uh to solve these problems just by uh a man to man talk and yet they aren't solved this way. Are they? I think that probably so, but great deal of pressure. If one side makes a mistake, the other side is on top,

02:02:32.919 - 02:03:01.589

it's easy you see, to criticize much more difficult to one thing, but there's a definite transition going on that drives this paternal kind of of the government that we've had is no longer possibly one solution to draw as many of these faculty members on the committees

02:03:02.609 - 02:03:20.930

that good. But, but then on the other hand, this is a mark that Alex just said, he said everybody is a member of the committee and runs things who does the work of pish. Another aspect of this matter is very interesting to me that the mass

02:03:20.939 - 02:03:39.109

is was supposed to have been a very good teacher. Now, the new trend at rise is teaching. There is a committee that has been set up on undergraduate teaching and Fran bro is a member, Mr Sass is a member. I think even Allen Ruth is a

02:03:39.120 - 02:03:55.000

member. Is this the Q committee, the committee on her undergrad. No, that's another, that's another one. There are lots of committees but uh they want to emphasize good teaching. Now, I personally, I'm completely opposed to this kind of stuff. I think good teaching goes hand in

02:03:55.009 - 02:04:16.859

hand with good scholarship and most of the young people I know don't produce collision right now. It's easy to entertain a class. God, I mean, I very often do it myself, you know, but I have a guilt period. If I don't talk about my subject, I

02:04:16.870 - 02:04:35.959

know I really shouldn't do that and that's much more pedestrian, right? You force people to go to the library and read, you don't entertain them. You don't act in front of them. So here we have another conflict between, what shall we say? The man was interested

02:04:35.970 - 02:05:02.279

in his discipline and the person that is more interested in and uh well, good relation with students and being popular and, and, and that sort of thing. And uh I suspect of the anti Masterson mm cons consisted primarily of the rather of this teaching group. You

02:05:02.290 - 02:05:28.859

know what the serious cause I don't know what the connection is, but they're more interested in social activities and in reforms and in voicing their, their opinions and going together with the students and is outside matters in politics, wrist and the people that produce and write

02:05:28.870 - 02:05:53.270

and sure they don't take that so seriously. And I've got wonderful exams in my own department and the name of speaker and in the social science there's some sort of a correlation there, I'm sure. And the observation, the funny thing is that math isn't, was supposed

02:05:53.279 - 02:06:15.479

to have been a good teacher. I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've been told you, whereas he didn't produce very much as far as the car was concerned. So it invades the, what is it? The pot calling the kettle black. Also, there's another

02:06:15.490 - 02:06:40.540

thing I don't take these things too seriously no matter who the president is. I don't want to have this job. It's a fool these days really wants to be a person. People must be have patients or they must have unlimited confidence in their abilities, must be

02:06:40.549 - 02:07:03.189

ideal. This, I don't singles for chips and German chips. That's what Clark me told me. He said will downen two John Raf. All these were previous to. I said you'll be very happy to be a professor again and some other people worry about it. I think

02:07:03.209 - 02:07:41.649

uh I agree as much, much better. I think in the long run for persons, somebody devote himself to it, the methods. I mean, the things that really matter such as books and a fine professor is a very gratifying exception, waste of your hand. I think also,

02:07:41.660 - 02:08:09.629

of course, uh I'm sure this has been brought out by others. Uh this trend against authority and the masses and cases you took the exam and here is a wonderful excuse to get at the board of trustees. They really leave themselves open. I suspect that people

02:08:09.640 - 02:08:59.100

who jump in and make a lot of that. Some of the ring beers, few persons, they, the one a r basically jealous and envious and insecure, critical and therefore the 10, this makes, I think the revenge person that cannot accept the situation in the Canopus except

02:08:59.109 - 02:09:24.560

himself blames the situation rather than his own, shorter than his head on. Do you see in, in this, any of uh any of the uh neonism that uh has brought up another other uh other countries among students or Roman too? I don't really know whether we

02:09:24.569 - 02:09:55.209

went that far here was so we didn't go into violence, we didn't destroy, reacted. I think on the whole, on certain set of values the where the need is of course, would destroy and then they spilled on that phases. I think this is the exact situation.

02:09:58.379 - 02:10:29.479

As I said, I, I believe our students are the only, most of them and uh they just had the conflict, the size of young people everywhere and that they become more outspoken and more critical. What should we say advanced, they want to see a certain situation

02:10:29.490 - 02:11:00.990

change. I think that's all to the, although, uh, they tend to, supposed to forget that somebody might get hurt and take technology apologize, man. It's true. Mhm. Yeah, I like everything. Yeah. You see, I heard for instance that Doctor Masson had asked whether his choice had

02:11:01.000 - 02:11:28.009

been approved. Somebody should ask if the mass is that true? This is something that, but she beat both of man, they can use them, you know, uh I'm sure the increase them, that remark. What make, I don't know about the, uh the, the, the board of

02:11:28.020 - 02:12:04.569

trustees. Are they due to the faculty? They treated us as Children in the first. That's, that's question, somebody should interview them too. Have you interviewed them? No, not as yet. Uh, we probably won't get through that until the first of September. How close are you to

02:12:04.580 - 02:12:23.569

uh doctor very close? Mhm. I have a little bit of problem with, uh, this project and perhaps you can give me some advice on this. Um, a number of the pro mattress and people are refusing to participate. And when I say, how about, um, I had

02:12:24.220 - 02:12:46.009

second thoughts about this myself. They don't want to be identified. It should be a lost cause. Is, is that, is that the, um, that's my, what's my reaction? I said, I, I made a mistake here. That was my feeling I stuck my neck out why should

02:12:46.020 - 02:13:02.770

I warm up the me part of your game? Rather want to forget it. And of all the anti, the, the pro masters and people who were identified with master who, I mean, I was not pro, in that sense, the one who really got hurt was myself.

02:13:03.069 - 02:13:20.540

I mean, there are people today that don't talk to me. Ok. They, I don't know what they had, what they had in mind about me. I mean, people know we are good natured, you know, and, um, I don't like to hurt people myself but, uh, I

02:13:20.790 - 02:13:36.209

mean, it's still all matters, you know, all manners of people for all possible kinds of reason. It could, they could think of me as a villain of some makes me, uh, rather unhappy when I think of it. So I'd rather not think of it. And that's

02:13:36.220 - 02:14:03.109

one of the reasons too. I didn't want to really discuss this. Ventilation. Others are good in extreme. But the worst thing that could have happened to me was this a up business actually, although it was again expressed very carefully. Can you sit by me? So they

02:14:03.120 - 02:14:42.799

know too what went on in my department? I heard this one clouding. Do you mean other members of the committee that reported? They, they knew, I think that this was just a sort of a camouflage. Yeah. Are there, uh, any of the reasons you usually think

02:14:42.810 - 02:15:18.790

of why they might be reluctant to participate? OK. Well, possibly because of the people that set up this program, they are not pro masses. No, they're bad people. But they, these poets voted against me. History and political science. Of course, Frank Van Der was a different

02:15:18.799 - 02:15:46.250

matter. Um I think it's basically that uh it's a lost cause. And also maybe what I said at the beginning, there's not much faith verbs and what is known as history. And I would imagine that most of the people that were for masters or that were,

02:15:46.259 - 02:16:05.629

let's say against the anti masters people, but they are non-political, they never organized as a group. They were simply individual. I knew them. You know that when you, when you, you, when they come to me and tell me, you know, but I had no idea before

02:16:05.640 - 02:16:19.319

that I, I don't know the group at all. It was, there was no organization because the other group was highly organized. There was no doubt they may have been done on the spur of the moment that they had, you know, a few hours and then after

02:16:19.330 - 02:16:40.440

that, they really open. Do you have any better way? Uh Assuming that, that the very strongly pro Masterson than the men who were really very close friends of Masterson? Do you know a better way that a project such as this for vindicating master's reputation by uh

02:16:41.679 - 02:17:03.530

perhaps documenting the activities of the rival group if you'd ever hear of this? Uh Do you really think that you will get information on the activities of planning and so on. What do you have? I got my surprise. Is that right? I'm surprised. But uh but

02:17:03.540 - 02:17:21.230

then I think this is the argument and you should use that you should tell it, it will not be complete. Uh unless these people give their analysis and interpretation of it and ascribe words and suggest uh reasons why these others are behaving this without these insights.

02:17:23.939 - 02:17:45.669

It's only speculation but they can give, they can give reasons. There are, I'm sure that you will find among the old times who know all the faculty here who know certain incidents that may have occurred between Doctor Masterson and the individual that they're testing everything. But

02:17:45.679 - 02:18:11.860

I mean, I just don't know nothing about this. Don't know almost nothing about this. I mean, that's the trouble with the newcomers. There's nothing to go by. But uh I think a man that you should interview is Doctor T Zano. Mhm. He's an old man. But

02:18:11.870 - 02:18:41.599

you see the, they have been lying low with these people. They have not said anything publicly, they have not said anything I think to, to me either. But you know about the past, there are several of friends and I don't know, probably with whom they discuss

02:18:41.610 - 02:18:58.869

this. They may not even discuss it with each other here on campus. Have you ever heard Doctor F for instance, uh uh give a reaction to the project are we at? You know what the project is, this person? He is a wise man and he is,

02:18:58.878 - 02:19:25.219

I think also somewhat political. I think he probably wouldn't talk to anyone if he did. He makes a joke of it. He makes jokes at things. Yes, sir. I considered him one of, one of the most key I would too because, and I'm, I'm alarmed that,

02:19:25.839 - 02:19:57.620

that, uh, you may, it may, you? Yeah, I don't think he will. Mhm He, he could contribute so much. Well, uh being a philosopher the whole, even the idea of perception, just the idea of social perception. Yes. But you see, he probably has the same hesitancy

02:19:57.629 - 02:20:19.679

that I have. We don't want to talk about our mistakes. Of course, he came out beautifully, but he was, he was a close friend of Bill Masons and he publicly said that he changed his mind. Same as I did. I changed mine later. Then he, he

02:20:19.690 - 02:20:40.889

may, why not? He's no longer a master. He doesn't have this decision. He's no longer chairman. You may, why not? When I see him? I talk, I talk to him. Pussy. Sub. Let me ask, let me ask you this. Are you feeling it differently about the

02:20:40.900 - 02:21:04.299

project now than you did before we began? Well, so in one way, it's so relieved to discuss this again. This is psychiatric kind of situation. But I really don't know whoever is going to work with this material, what he can, what he can do. He, I

02:21:04.309 - 02:21:23.269

don't think he can go beyond of what I said from my point of view or from a general point of view. He could perhaps, I don't know, I suppose a psychologist would say if you illuminating things but a social history or a political history, what else

02:21:24.870 - 02:21:46.650

could be ended? I mean, you could write a sort of a diary type of, you know, report this and this happened at that and that time. Exactly. But you'd still be somebody at a loss to understand the motivation to, uh, tied in certain trends in history,

02:21:47.429 - 02:22:11.730

national international, whatever. I think we really don't. We have the bare bones here and then an attempt to generalize a little bit, but you can't really go beyond that and that's always the trouble with mass movement. What makes a foreign policy or an internal policy? What

02:22:11.740 - 02:22:31.530

were you doing at the time? World War Two broke out? You know, that sort of thing. Why did you decide that in that way? Highly intriguing question? But if we knew the answers, we would be God. On the other hand, I uh uh I think knowing

02:22:31.540 - 02:22:50.160

what, knowing how people perceive these situations, would you get in these conversations? Uh, certainly tell us a great deal more than not having a conversation. True, but it tells you a lot more about the persons, but not about these. If you're correct in your idea about

02:22:50.169 - 02:23:15.349

uh, character in history then, uh, what you need to find out is how the individuals perceive the situation as the key to their, I think. Well, I've learned quite a bit from, from the event I've learned to keep my mouth shut from now on, I think.

02:23:16.980 - 02:23:38.669

Or do I won't knowing myself? I was like a negative in case of negative learning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there were some people that kept them, I mean, I was surprised the old time I kept them out shut. You probably knew what was coming parents to

02:23:38.679 - 02:24:06.269

take a man like doctor for it could easily upset some. Do you need to make any? That's what this supporting group wasn't there? Right? The only one who talk, the only ones who talk with Jim Castaneda, Frank Van Der. And they talk to the newspapers in

02:24:06.280 - 02:24:25.950

my myself. Now they talk to newspapers. I talk to the campus. I wish I'd rather talk the newspapers on count. Well, uh, you were out of town on Saturday morning but, uh, not ca I did address the teach you. Oh, yes, it is. That's true. I

02:24:25.959 - 02:24:51.870

think you said something. It will rise to that evening. Yeah. Another man, another man whom you may want to uh, interview is Connie K uh Connie Kenda. Yes. In philosophy. He general philosopher and very reasonable and kind man. Do you use terminal philosophy? Now you saying

02:24:51.879 - 02:25:17.230

he was at that time or was it not? No? He was already, I think. Mhm. You said doctor put him up on, uh, just for the summer. They generally then go to Ithaca. They hit the small, um, cottage there the other day. It must be very

02:25:17.299 - 02:25:37.040

nice. Yes, ma'am. Well, Doctor Khan, I, uh, I'm sure that you, uh, uh, that's a lot of the things you, you need to do. Uh, you, you give me almost three hours. I couldn't find a lie to get your positive at all. It was very kind

02:25:37.049 - 02:25:51.339

of you to, to sit to you for this many hours. If uh I would like to say that if uh if any questions um come up that I think only you can answer. Uh I, I would like to reserve the possibility of coming back for a

02:25:51.349 - 02:26:07.879

short, uh use a short session on prep in September. I don't, I'm not sure that I mentioned that we're running quite far behind on the transcriptions. It takes 7 to 10 hours, the transcriber time for each hour of interview. Uh We're uh several weeks behind. So

02:26:07.889 - 02:26:23.660

I would, uh my guess is that uh it would be the middle of that part of August before we have that ready for you. And I think when you see it, you'll be very pleased. Do you think so? It must have hemmed in heart? Well, we

02:26:23.669 - 02:26:25.230

take that, I