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This is Pomo. Today is June uh 1969 time is uh 1015. This is tape eight side two at the sound of the word. Now, set it down to zero 321. Now, the interviewee today is uh Doctor Raf. See, uh Doctor R, could you give me uh

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your full name and address? Just while I check this microphone setting. You want the home address right here, uh home address just to 811, Fairdale Houston and Department of History here at Rice. But I think that'll be all right. Um Well, doctor, we uh we're just

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uh getting ready to begin here. Um Some of the things we're looking for in this interview, uh are things we've talked about such as your personal recollections of your participation as well as uh your analysis of the developing events, your interpretation of uh of uh or

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the motives of other people for some of the things they said or the positions they took. But as background on this, uh I'd be very interested in um in how you view the office of, of president of a university such as this in this day and

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time. And relate that to the whole presidential selection crisis. Well, I think an answer to a question like that would be extremely difficult. He always needs a superman and the superman just can't be found. Now. Pinpointing to Rice, I think particularly at Rice University needs a

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president who has considerable standing national and international in either the sciences, engineering or the humanities, a man of considerable vision and considerable leadership ability, not only in the community of Houston at large, the scholar, the community at large, but particularly in so far as leading faculty

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and students in the right direction is concerned. And also in so far as um pushing to see that those programs, educational research and otherwise, that can really turn Rice into a great university will be fathered and pushed in such a way that they can be carried

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to a conclusion, I think uh also probably in almost any situation and especially here, it would a smaller faculty like here, it would be wise to get a president who had no connections at all with Rice University. I think many of my friends, at least in

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that faculty had that feeling because a man who's already been here or who is here, inevitably, if he was a strong man, made some enemies or even if he didn't, some people would fear that there are special friends he might have, who might get special breaks,

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that others wouldn't. If you get someone who's never been here in any capacity, at least everybody would feel that there'd be a neutral chance at the start. Does um does the president of a of a university uh have an opportunity to uh some of the things

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you described almost sound as though they, they would be better performed at the departmental level rather than at the president level. Is this a feature of a small university? Uh or do I have the wrong idea about the? Well with, with leadership, I meant top level

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leadership, obviously a president of the university cannot and should not take a direct hand in the operation of all the details of every department or every division on every benefit in the university. Its top leadership inspiration and general uh give general direction to the office, who

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was the office of the president that I left him to have that much control over the allocation of the budget to the value of departments. And then they were just the divisions of the, you know, of the very much in the past. Now, I do have

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the feeling that we're very much in the train station area and as we grow larger and the fact of various minds of communication with the faculty and faculty responsibility channels are worked out, it will probably be less and less, but uh certainly up to now, the

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president has had a very played a very great, great role in uh uh the making of all budgets. What kind of does the faculty counsel have on this? Do they review about this or? Uh uh I always, I was only on the faculty council my first

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year here that was six years ago. And to my knowledge, the answer to that one would be no, they reviewed recommendations for emotion, but that was it. I see that was all. Does a does a president for a school like this have very much to do

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with the recruiting for faculty or is this normally done at the departmental level? It's done uh the departmental level, although at an institution like this, the president naturally gives approval and interviews people brought in, especially if they're brought in top level rank. And I think that

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it's only natural, probably should be done in any institution unless it's entirely too unwieldy and too big. I see. Uh what was your opinion of uh of Doctor Pitzer as a, as a the top administrative officer of uh of rides? Uh Top Flight? In fact, I

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was at Texas dozen years well established there. I wouldn't have come here, had doctor pitch and not made a marvelous impression on me during the 40 45 minutes interview with someone when I was first called up with Frank Vander for about a job here either as

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chairman or without, I said you can consider me without chairman, but my God never as chairman but uh doctor pitcher talked me into giving it a try at least. And he convinced me that the situation was such that at that moment, anybody brought in a top

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rank should at least for a year or two take over the chairmanship, uh the history and political science department, which is what it was in. I, I heard that doctor pitcher had a marvelous way with, uh, made a marvelous impression on people, a very dynamic. Uh

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He did, for instance, all of the things we talked about are various ways in which we could build up a department or start graduate work in that interview in October 1962. To my knowledge, no written record was ever kept of it. But 34 or five years

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later when it came to deliver, he remembered and honor those promises without my reminding them, he had a magnificent uh me and I also had the feeling sometimes that he knew probably more the ins and outs of our own department than I did as chairman and

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that if he thought that people were really doing things in teaching or research or other things that would help race, he would without asking questions, really push him this hard as he possibly could and find money to push those enterprises. It wasn't a question of having

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to submit every little question to him uh for his advice and approval as is often the case with weak people who insist they must keep a hand in everything if he had faith and confidence in an apartment and a person that was it, you went on

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from there and felt you could rely on his support within the uncertain broad overall guidelines which you naturally expect anywhere. I've heard it one time that he was able to devote almost 1/4 of his time to research. Uh Do you know, I don't know about that,

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but I know he was there and he was an amazing person with a great organizational ability, a brilliant mind and a man who could get at the heart of the matter and two or three minutes and make up his mind. And that was it. I remember

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we made one or two key decisions over telephone, 30 minutes. Pardon me? 32nd, 1 minute conversation on my part and you'd say yes or no. And we went on from there and I kept a record of the telephone conversation then because I wouldn't trust my own

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memory. But I was sure thought he'd remember that verbal agreement 10 years from now. Well, to be able to do that, he must have had a, uh a, a tremendous um way of organizing his time to, to allow uh uh time for all of these things

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as well as his, his personal research. Yes, he did. Will it be an accurate interpretation of, of what you're saying that uh you would like to have seen someone very much like that, uh someone of that ability because I, you don't obviously get to people who

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are identical or even approach each other and talent ability at the time? The, um I actually word it this way. Uh Were you um active on the, um, or with the faculty advisory committee? Did you submit names of candidates you thought would make you submitted three

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originally and then one or two later on it? Um uh Did you submit dossiers with these or were they people? Well, names with um excerpts from who's who in America and other things about their life is a recollected. I think it would be helpful for the

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record to get an idea of the kinds of people, uh, and the kinds of backgrounds who were considered in this. Uh We've had some of the names of people who were recommended by the sciences. We haven't yet haven't had any people who uh were recommended by

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on my list was uh Charles Taylor now provo to Yale University. And that goes largely to when I was on the committee, my first year here to select to advise the president on the selection of a deed of humanities. And when the tailors were here, they

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made such a magnificent impression on everybody. The committee, I felt the bored certain of the students and faculty. I remember one afternoon my little office over in Razor Hall with some of the younger faculty members, they are sitting on the floor and Charlie Taylor sitting on

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the floor and the discussion was magnificent. We felt here was a man with ideas, with real vision and we uh had the feeling he was very much interested in the position because uh I heard that he even thought over the rice offer for a couple of

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weeks after they offered the provo ship of Yale University to him. And I thought maybe in that case, if given a first rate offer and a chance to build, he'd rather be at a place like this where he would be the real leader than the man

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who was second command at a place like Idi. Then the uh second choice was my mind, my memories um slipping here, but the man who was Provost at Columbia University of Political assigned us, we felt that obviously a man of that caliber would want to leave

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and he did, he went to Mount Holy. And the third of my choices was John Galbraith, who had been Chancellor of the University of California San Diego. Because of the way in that instance, he has shown real courage and fighting ability in order to try to

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do things for the faculty and students of the institution at large. He had also been one of the people considered for the deanship here. And in that case, the offer of the provost ship is came at the same time. Well, it isn't popo ship. I think

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it's what chancellors or presidents second in command, the person in charge of the institution under the uh president or Chancellor, whatever he's called at Berkeley. Well, he's certainly, uh, top type people. Charlie is Charles Taylor still at Yale. Maybe he's still at Yale. Well, that's the

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type of person I always had the feeling I should have because use a much overworked phrase as some people bandy about cynically, we're at the threshold of greatness and we need someone like that to help pull us over the threshold. What are some of the things

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you think uh should be done at rice in order to get them over the threshold? What, what, what do you consider the weakest areas? Uh Now, in terms of the goals you have in mind for rice, I think perhaps something that I as an older person

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probably wouldn't be as aware of as I should. And that is the tremendous amount of money and push and drive it takes and along with that the great wisdom and which that money has to be spent and probably along with it, uh a willingness first of

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all to get the really top flight people, no matter how much it costs and then support him and take the risk and just depend on the uh or soundness of the regional judgment to take the risk and let them develop and develop their particular section or

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phase of the university's activities as they think best without uh interference, constant interference or need for justification on top of it. No, I think Rice is quite good on that score. But uh we need more. But I think any institution needs more of that, in other

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words, you have to have men and also men who are willing to work with students and not just to isolate themselves for their own glory. Do you see uh any shortcomings in uh humanities as opposed to uh uh the science engineering division or, or in graduate

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as opposed to undergraduate? Uh How would you weigh these? Uh I'd say yes, certainly not because President Pitzer was a chemist. In fact, I think the very fact that he was a scientist meant that he really pushed the humanities, but he could push the humanities only

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in so far as we gain first rate advice and in so far as the leaders of departments and in the humanities, and the dean would really push him and give him that advice. Now, I have the feeling that our great weakness ever since I've been here,

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I would say ever since we've had humanities here, as we've never really had top flight leadership in the office of the dean. Now, one person, certainly who was an acting dean, one or two, I thought uh did a beautiful job, but they were only acting in

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office for a semester. So when you can't make any commitments, but we haven't had the top flight national leadership people with vision and drive, you're in that office. I'm a little vague about what starting with the man who first occupied that office and who did my

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first semester here? Is that uh uh Doctor Masterson? Yeah. Sorry. I'm a little uh be in my mind about um the function of a dean in a university of this size. Uh Do they um do they have uh very much control over uh or very much

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influence over such things as uh uh curricula or uh hiring promotion, uh recommendations for promotion. Uh budgets considerable over budget, considerable over recommendations for promotions and so on. Not as much as in the usual institution and probably not as much as they should have largely because

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it's first of all deanship of humanities rather than of arts and sciences, which in itself means uh um something similar to the dean or head of a division like social studies or so on or biological sciences in a larger university. So that's part of the case.

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Partly also I think because we've never had any stability in that office and people with real vision and leadership, I think that kind of an office is of such a nature that a man with real drive, real ability, real push who concentrated on the important things

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and gave real leadership to all the departments good, really ever very big job, a lot to do. But I mean, by that real leadership in broad ways and not interfering in all little tiny details of budget operations of a department. I think the very fact that

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uh it is a humanities only deanship of humanities office sometimes means there's too much of a tendency for a man in an office like that to try to play the role of a super chairman of every department. And that's one way of really crippling the departments.

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Are there two deans that rise, one of science engineering, one of humanities and under humanities uh would be included uh social studies, all social studies and English and art history. Plus one department that really doesn't fit anywhere. That's phys, health and physical education in the music

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department. I guess it would be a different school. Yes. Well, that's, uh, that's, that's very helpful to have just a background understanding. Uh I might uh uh bring us up to a sort of a chronological point in our story now and uh ask you how, uh

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how you got the news that the, um, board has made a decision, the men they had selected came as a terrific surprise back last fall. Some of the younger people, the department who were very much worried about the possibility of selecting that someone would select Masterson

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came to me. I'm afraid they're going to select them. I said, well, there isn't a ghost of a chance of that said, if you ever hear anything in this case, I think it's so vital for the university that let me know and I'll see what I

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can do. That's why I was thunderstruck when I believe it shows how hazy this is, but I think it was probably Charles Gro uh Alan Grobe who shortly before noon on Friday went by my office in the history department and said, my God, do you know

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who they chose for President? Uh Masterson? I said it can't be, it can't be. Yes. Yes, it is. We've heard it over the radio and I was just thunderstruck shortly after that. I drove on out to the, I heard the announcement over the radio. I immediately

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worried about what the effects would be on some of the younger people around here because I had the feeling that some of the ablest young people in the history department would immediately try to pull up States and leave as fast as they could because they were

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just worried and scared to death of having a man of that temperament as president of the university, especially since he had more or less they all felt and believed that he was the main person in the department who tried to hold up their promotion and even

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agitated to uh uh get rid of them after their three year contract was over. I was quite deeply disturbed, ate lunch in a hurry, came back to the office wondering what should be done before that I might say, I wondered why the faculty meeting, but I

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never uh I had been specially called, but I never dreamt it was because of this appointment. But shortly after I got back to the office. Will Dowton, former chairman of the English Department came there and Will was just as disturbed as I was. We both believed

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something had to be done. Could you fill me in a little background as you use the expression of man of that temperament? Uh uh Could you describe what you mean by that? You mean to doctor Masterson? The effect it would have uh you mentioned being worried

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about the effect it would have on the younger people. Uh If a man of that temperament became president because they felt that he had in several instances, single handedly tried to get them fired from here. And uh I tried to hold up their promotion and that

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was not only true in history but also in uh English department also because in our instance of the history department, the big course that he ran, he controlled the whole thing. They couldn't advise him in making out examination papers or help making out grades or anything.

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He ran the whole show and as able young people, they didn't want that kind of thing. Also, they felt that uh with that kind of a, a man of that kind of temperament instead of looking forward to experimenting and growing, why there'd be a looking backwards

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to the old school tie, tried to probably turn rice into an image of what it was in the early thirties when he was here as a student. That's about what I think I'd have in mind when I talked to their reaction to having a man of

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that temperament as President. Did. Uh, did, do you think that some of the young people felt that they were being, uh, that they were, were unjustly treated in terms of their professional confidence? Or did they think that other characteristics entered into, uh, uh his evaluation? I

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had the feeling that it was wholly a matter of likes and personal dislike. Now, in my case, I might say I had to battle very, very hard for all the time. He was here. I was just a member of the department to hang on to some

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of the people I thought were the aimless younger people. Well, Alan Matao who's won teaching prizes. Well, in that case, wait a minute, in that case, why he was never opposed to him, but particularly Lou Gambu several times, it was a real struggle to keep him

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from kicked, being kicked out and being promoted. Charles knew was another one because when the three year period was up, there was this tremendous agitation by the man under who was being considered for president, who could swing two or three of his friends along people who

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had race connections, particularly uh to vote to try to veto it. And I got them pushed out and it took an awful lot of patience working. I would almost have to say manipulation on my part to keep those people on our faculty at all. It was

00:26:20.989 - 00:26:42.380

that kind of worry and the feeling was, well, I was chided for instance, by him several times for even listening to him, listening to anybody or taking the advice of anyone who's not a full professor, specifically advice of anyone who was not an associate professor. And

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uh they're uppity. Uh they're criticizing rice uh their arty ways. Uh They talk too much to students. They criticize us as older people before students. That was the type of thing they feared, uh they feared that they were being judged wholly on reasons like that for

00:27:07.540 - 00:27:28.880

reasons like those by the men under discussion here plus two or three other people who could swing along with the department, senior people in uh length of service. That's why we had such a morale problem. I see it. Uh it wasn't necessarily related to uh uh

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a version for their political views, although they might have had a small, uh it might have been a small factor in it. Uh It was almost, it was academic uh fear and academic view. It was a feeling that, well, also an aversion for, should we say

00:27:49.300 - 00:28:10.670

his historical philosophy and educational philosophy? He believed facts. It's still a matter of pounding facts into students memorizing facts. Whereas the younger people and I might say I belong to that school myself, feel that idea, stirring up ideas and reasons and getting the people to think

00:28:11.810 - 00:28:29.459

those are the important things to do in teaching and not just pounding a lot of facts into their head that for them to regurgitate at examination time and then forget later on it was a fundamental conflict in attitude towards teaching of history. I think of attitudes

00:28:29.469 - 00:28:49.849

towards students, you think? Yes, and particularly attitude towards uh students. I think we could say what the worry was in our department was that Masterson had. And I'm trying to say this a nice way away from the connotation. Very much of an authoritarian concept that you

00:28:49.859 - 00:29:15.339

must listen, almost jump to attention when your superiors and length of service and rank say something and you do not criticize, you do not discuss, you just listen and then carry out orders. It's that kind of a concept. And obviously, that's why there was such combination

00:29:15.349 - 00:29:42.020

of aversion and fear I would say on the part of all the about all the un tenured people in the department and some of the associate professors with tenure, OK, had been recruited without exception, everybody who had been recruited since about 1961 or so because I

00:29:42.030 - 00:29:58.829

was in on the recruitment in directly at 62 when they knew I was coming here. Certainly everyone recruited from that time on uh I think without exception, I had that fear, probably an indication of the sentiment of the department was that when the final vote was

00:29:58.839 - 00:30:26.540

taken on whether we approve of his appointment or not four. And they were, all three of them were old timers. One Harper Francis Warner were four masters and 12 were very strongly against the appointment. That's gives an indication, pretty much of the sentiment of the department

00:30:26.550 - 00:30:47.390

and why I was so worried about what had happened in the history department by luck. And I think by an awful lot of hard work writing hundreds of letters. Sometimes about each appointment, we got together a first great group of people and had uh Masterson come

00:30:47.400 - 00:31:08.170

here. I think the chances would have been great, great. Then two years, all of them, practically what I'm going. And then once that happens, it's impossible to recruit high caliber people are extremely difficult. It is a question of survival for department. And I uh I think

00:31:08.180 - 00:31:29.760

when will Dalton then saw me, I talked about that and he talked about the same thing in the English Department because when he was chairman, before the morale had been very, very bad among the younger people in English. And largely because they felt the then Dean

00:31:29.770 - 00:31:47.410

of Humanities was trying to get rid of some of them, was trying to fire one or two of them and was trying to keep a tight rein on every operation. And we all knew from what we heard that before I came here while he was Dean,

00:31:47.880 - 00:32:06.130

he was really sometimes acting as chairman in our case, the acting chairman when he wanted to spend departmental money. He didn't even ask her, he just signed an order and she didn't find out that the money had been spent until she caught up with it a

00:32:06.140 - 00:32:25.680

month or so later in the machine runs of the budget. And it was worries like that. Well, we were worrying, we felt something had to be done. We thought somebody certainly in the faculty meeting would raise an objection. But we know organization takes something while we

00:32:25.689 - 00:32:42.650

were discussing that we started worrying about. Some of the young people said some of those people are going to go out. And, uh, Bill said, I've got to find Alan Grove. He might really go off the deep end. So we were wandering around looking for Alan

00:32:42.660 - 00:33:00.300

Grove and we saw him in Alan Matisse's office. So Will and I went in there and a young instructor in our department here. First year Gail Stokes happened to be in there talking with him. And so we closed the door and discussed what initiative should be

00:33:00.310 - 00:33:24.650

taken. And we felt something just had to be done in the way of proposing a faculty resolution opposing the appointment. But it had to be done in a responsible, a legal way in which you wouldn't challenge authority. That helps explain uh the form in which it

00:33:24.660 - 00:33:45.699

took. We deeply regret. But also we had to make it clear that we were very strongly opposed to the man himself. And that's why that term came in we emphatically insist that the board reconsider the appointment. Well, I think as I recollect it, uh, uh, the

00:33:45.709 - 00:34:02.270

people who took the main hand really in drafting it were, uh, will do and, and Alan Grove, I remember I talked with it and said about it and I suggested certain things, I think Alan Matao also took a hand in it. I, I, as I had

00:34:02.280 - 00:34:17.729

the feeling I took less of a hand in the actual wording than they did. It's for that reason, particularly that I think you must by all means, see them. But at the end, we agreed upon something and we had about an hour and a half or

00:34:17.739 - 00:34:40.749

so to run around in pouring rain to get as many signatures as we possibly could. We also agreed that no one in history should read that because otherwise it would sound like a grudge fight in the history department when we thought Jack Ward as the new

00:34:40.759 - 00:34:59.579

chairman of English department who was just as charming and nice and decent and level headed a person as possible should read it. Of course, will, didn't know for sure how he felt. But if uh Jack would read it, we thought it would be fine. If not

00:34:59.589 - 00:35:14.219

why, I don't know just exactly what the ranges were. I know. Will was willing to read it. I was willing to read it except I held out that reservation. They think it would be a grudge fight because people knew the struggles I had had while I

00:35:14.229 - 00:35:32.090

was here as a member of the department, all I insisted on at the end was that my name be put first, uh, on the list as the first person who signed it. Then, uh, also I got in touch with Harold Hyman who has, uh, also has

00:35:32.100 - 00:35:46.850

one of the three main chairs in the department and I wanted him to sign it next because that would be plenty of protection for any of the younger people in the department. And we ran off copies in the history department office. And we all made a

00:35:46.860 - 00:36:03.239

sort of a half informal agreement as where we'd go to try to get, uh, signers for that, uh, petition. I think by that time, we had the most, had an hour and a quarter hour and a half. And we also made plans as to what we

00:36:03.250 - 00:36:22.489

would try to do in playing it by ear. The case, say, uh, first of all, a hothead would do something that might hurt the whole cause of trying to stop this appointment or in case there were any effort to railroad the whole thing through. So we

00:36:22.500 - 00:36:38.030

ran around, got our signatures and I found out when we got in the meeting that Jack Ward was very glad to read them by luck. And just for sheer luck, we, because we had to go where we could find people. We got some of the key

00:36:38.040 - 00:36:56.500

people in this university to put their name on the list. Now at the meeting, Jack Ward read the resolution, there was some kind of doubt and I felt then that I could without making be a grudge fight, get up and say that it's one of the

00:36:56.510 - 00:37:12.969

61 signers of the petition. So there can be no doubt. I formally move that the faculty adopt this resolution. And I think from then on on, I was completely quiet. I felt should be because we had to be so careful that this couldn't be construed as

00:37:13.409 - 00:37:29.870

well. Just uh fight in the history book. It's quite impressive that you got 61 signatures on a rainy Friday afternoon. And we were very lucky. Did you get quite a few department chairman? I don't believe I've seen that, that petition, although we probably have it in

00:37:29.889 - 00:37:45.489

here or a copy of it here somewhere. I just don't remember because there were her sheets. I uh uh had the mimeograph in the history department office. In fact, it happened and she smiled but I did it because of undergraduate who just works part time in

00:37:45.500 - 00:38:01.780

the office, who was one of the student advisors to the uh faculty selection committee. I ran him off Barry Capital to run him off for me. And I know she gave a nice smile as she did it because she read the thing at that time. So,

00:38:01.790 - 00:38:18.659

I don't know because we had about 60 probably 4567. I don't know how many copies floating around. And all the only time I heard them was when they were read off at the uh meeting. I know the Chairman of Chemistry signed because I talked to him

00:38:18.669 - 00:38:38.179

personally, never only signed, but he took that copy around for some of his colleagues to sign. And so on that question, you'd have to see the list. If you'll show me the list, I can tell you who's chairman and who's ex chairman. No, I'm not sure

00:38:39.399 - 00:38:58.159

I might bring it up to your office sometime and uh we'll go over it as well. Um At this meeting. Um As I understand, uh uh chances of Cronus was presiding and then uh how soon after the uh after the announcement, uh did Doctor Ward have

00:38:58.169 - 00:39:27.300

an opportunity to read the resolution? And then what happened? Well, what happened was that I talk, Chancellor Croise and other people were obviously in very much of a bind and uh luck was really with us because everything that could have happened a to help us happened.

00:39:27.989 - 00:39:49.949

And none of the things we were fear we feared would really hurt our cause actually occurred. What I think helped win several boats right at the faculty was that after Chancellor Chronis introduce the vice chairman of the board to present a fait accompli when Dean Risher

00:39:50.199 - 00:40:07.050

then got up and gave what sounded like a fawn in adulatory speech. Thanking them for their graciousness and their choice and move to a the meeting that we were desperate and there was just a boo almost and a lot of people who never boo in their

00:40:07.060 - 00:40:29.909

lifetime uh an explosion like that. So that won more votes. And then of course, we had to be sure that the faculty committee, we knew it beforehand, but we had to get it out in the open that the faculty student committee had not made this recommendation.

00:40:29.919 - 00:40:50.399

So we had to get the chairman of that committee, Franz Brat to answer that question. One of us had planned to ask him that question, but somebody else in the faculty had already asked it. Then after that became obvious, then Ward stood up, was recognized and

00:40:50.409 - 00:41:10.459

he just read it. But there was some ambiguity then and after a little discussion, why then I made the motion that it be adopted then. Uh Well, then when uh Chancellor Krois chided one person in opposition for making a mistake in English, I'm afraid that one

00:41:10.469 - 00:41:30.159

more vote for us. I know I thought uh I, I'm not trying to be critical there. God knows that I've been under pressures. I like those. I would have made 100 times as many mistakes, but I'm just mentioning some of the things there that just fell

00:41:30.169 - 00:41:50.550

into line. And curiously enough, one of the people who was really pro Masterson made the uh amendment that those two parts, different parts of the uh resolution be separated so we could vote on them separately. Well, I of course, we had the trouble of trying to

00:41:50.560 - 00:42:09.030

get together and sensing each other's views and I felt sure that it was very, very wise myself. But uh one of the people who, in fact, the man whose name was second on the list after mine had suggested that he make the motion because although this

00:42:09.040 - 00:42:24.219

person thought it would be to help Masterson, why the man on the list knew that that was needed to help our cause. So, and it was a matter of fairness too. And immediately when in this case, it was Bob Khan made that motion. Why uh I

00:42:24.229 - 00:42:43.149

know I saw the wisdom of that immediately because otherwise it would have been railroading the faculty members of the faculty who might have wanted to condemn the reasons for going off on their own, who really were friends of Masterson into voting for that. So we all

00:42:43.159 - 00:43:01.090

with enthusiasm uh voted for that most of us at least 10. So that helped our cause again, in this case, because some somebody who was really in the other camp made that motion that helped us. And this was the vote of the second part. That is

00:43:01.100 - 00:43:18.250

the one that you emphatically insist they reconsider. And that is a key one. Now on voice vote, the one condemning them really, I suppose we could say reproaching them for doing it. The way they did. That was a voice vote with practical and no, no, the

00:43:18.260 - 00:43:36.149

key one was the one. What was the vote? 91 to 58 or something like that? You have the factual, less than 2 to 1. But yeah, I remember, I think the nos are 58 because wait a minute, was it that big? No? 57 or so big

00:43:36.159 - 00:43:50.580

or, or because I remember the Post the next morning. I was so angry when I felt they deliberate that that was not an editor that was not a typographical error when they reversed those figures and it looked like 70 some rather than 50 something, but better

00:43:50.590 - 00:44:05.290

erase that. And you'll have to check the actual vote. What do you recall? It was almost close to two I one and not quite a was uh what, what impression do you think Doctor Bruton's speech made on the faculty when he uh uh he made a

00:44:05.300 - 00:44:30.590

short talk out his dad about uh excellent, very honest, very candid, very fair, very dignified by a man who was really under pressure. It was not an inflammatory speech. It was just a straight, straight forward and it was a speech in which in which he gave

00:44:30.600 - 00:44:49.729

the facts, he obviously had to bring out a few things which for inference weren't too complimentary to aboard the vice chairman of which was sitting right there on the platform. Did you have a chance to uh notice the reaction uh of uh Mr Allen and Mr

00:44:49.739 - 00:45:03.760

Teague to these goings on in this meeting. Uh The whole meeting lasted what about 45 minutes? I don't know. Well, I was too far in the back. I will only say this. I don't even know what Mr Teague looks like, but I thought that under the

00:45:03.770 - 00:45:29.929

circumstances, uh I had considerable admiration for the poise of Mr Allen. I thought he acted like a real gentleman, consider the pressures. He was under the slap in the face that he got his behavior was I think magnificent. That's my reaction. I thought they made a

00:45:29.939 - 00:45:54.929

terrible mistake because mainly because it's natural when you're very successful in business, you think of a university in the same terms, what you think of business from their point of view, Masterson, part of the old families, good connections with the board and the people who they

00:45:54.939 - 00:46:13.429

are older alumni and people who would give money to rice. From their point of view of money drive, engaging in money drives. I could see how they thought he would have been the ideal choice. I also could see how his old rice grads. They felt that

00:46:13.439 - 00:46:33.060

rice would be given an a claw that's never had a date, a point, find one of their own alone. But from the point of view of the development of rice university, it would have been a tragic catastrophe. You know what impressed me of the whole thing

00:46:33.070 - 00:47:01.270

more than the faculty to the students, their conduct restrain open fair protest, magnificent behavior with rare exceptions is really something to admire if I had the students acted the same way. And contrary to something I sincerely believed in, I would have had the same admiration for

00:47:02.409 - 00:47:27.239

their leadership and the way that teaching or whatever you call it at the gym was conducted. Everyone having a right to say what he wanted to. And the quiet protest including the what I think was oh, very intelligent choice of the badges that we wore. Sinclair.

00:47:27.250 - 00:47:44.510

Well, what I think was one of Sinclair, Lewis's more mediocre books, but I remember it, it made it quite an impression on me when I read it in the early forties art. They did a beautiful job and I remember Brown College, which I'm an associate, the

00:47:45.989 - 00:48:04.870

behavior of those young ladies who were not going to be browbeaten into something they wanted to hear all sides and make up their own minds. Uh When the voting took place as it actually turned out, I know this is just grapevine heard by the grapevine that

00:48:05.179 - 00:48:25.639

brown probably voted more emphatically and I Masterson and by a slight percentage then any of the other colleges. But the way they asked questions and examined both sides of the issue and all possible sides is something to admire. No wonder Rice is turning out so many

00:48:25.649 - 00:48:40.080

real leaders of the student body. Were you at the Brown? Meeting on that Sunday night. Uh Were you uh were you able to get in on it before the uh the misunderstanding occurred about uh that, that brought in all of the visitors from the other meetings.

00:48:40.199 - 00:49:00.610

In fact, I, I had a small talk, a short talk there. I was determined not to. But when somebody brought out uh uh statement of pro I felt I had to talk two or three minutes to explain my reasons and be so strongly being so worried

00:49:00.620 - 00:49:15.870

about it. My reason for having signed a petition. But later on, yes, you got that an interesting thing there, some of the they were afraid because of the questioning that they were losing brown and that was the worst thing they could have done. I could just

00:49:15.879 - 00:49:32.639

see those uh from their point of view, it was the worst thing. I could just see those expressions of dislike and well, you're not going to railroad us and do anything uh face after face. And actually, as I understand it, and you might see if this

00:49:32.649 - 00:49:49.419

is uh correct with your uh recollection too, as I understand it, the girls were not really seriously considering having a whole college abstain from taking part in the vote. Uh Somebody merely made the uh the statement that anyone, any individual who wished to abstain from the

00:49:49.429 - 00:50:09.870

vote could do. So that's definitely my impression of it. My feeling was what they were trying to exploit is a way to be as fair as they possibly could be to the conscience of any girl at Brown College. Do you explore a way in which another

00:50:09.879 - 00:50:34.320

alternative? Because so much of the discussion was, this is a, a crisis which involves very intelligent handling and if there's ever a time when everybody has to vote honestly, the way they themselves feel they should vote it now. Yes. I, I'd agree with that interpretation. Definitely.

00:50:34.929 - 00:50:53.080

But apparently the news that had gotten out elsewhere was different for a time. I was worried that they were losing a lot of votes at Brown when they were just lining up one after another, including some of my faculty colleagues. How, what did you think about

00:50:53.090 - 00:51:03.239

the way the young lady was president of that college? Her name slips my mind right now. Did she conduct things pretty well or did things get out of hand there for a while? I thought she did a very nice job in her report of the meeting

00:51:03.250 - 00:51:24.050

with, uh masters I thought was very fair. He apparently had made a lot of mistakes in those two long sessions with the student leaders because I had talked to one or two of them at noon. In fact, I ate with one of the presidents. He wanted

00:51:24.060 - 00:51:40.159

me to eat with him and talk the whole matter over. And I know in his case, his only interest was in making a fair judgment, finding out the facts and I believe that was true with most of the college presidents. But after those two sessions, they

00:51:40.169 - 00:52:03.629

were unanimously very, very strongly opposed to the appointment. What happened is anyone's conjecture. You can no doubt find for the record, find out what actually happened from people who know 10 times as much about that phase of it as I do. What was your reaction to

00:52:03.639 - 00:52:20.850

the statement that the student leaders put out? I believe that was out before noon. Was that it was read at the colleges in which they found, uh Doctor Masterson, unacceptable, unacceptable. Yes. And then in our college, then the president made a short talk, giving her reasons

00:52:20.860 - 00:52:46.649

for finding it unacceptable. What was the response to her short talk? Was there uh, a clapping or, or what have the students accepted? Do you recall my general impression? Yes. And I'm not sure on this quite favorable, there was certainly applause and certainly no hissing or

00:52:46.659 - 00:53:07.429

so at the end. And I'd say it on the basis because later on you could tell almost who sided with who, depending on how much applause a person who had just made a talk. God and who gave the applause? Did you, um, get in on any

00:53:07.439 - 00:53:21.080

of the Saturday activities? Uh You said that you mentioned that you thought the teaching over the gym was very well conducted. Uh, were you able to, uh, attend that as well as the noon meeting at the noon meeting? And then I ate with one of them

00:53:22.439 - 00:53:40.800

presidents of a college and went home and I suppose like many of us in the faculty we, that weekend I probably received as many or made as many telephone calls as I normally would in a 56 month period. And then the rest of that telephone call

00:53:41.169 - 00:53:58.199

and then I was in none of the Sunday afternoon meeting at all. Now will Dowd of the five of us who were uh you know, drafting the petition. Will Dalton could tell you so much about that Sunday afternoon meeting of a very small faculty student group

00:53:58.209 - 00:54:20.060

with uh Dean Gordon, who I thought did a magnificent job. If there are two people who I think should be patted on the back is people real responsibility and integrity and courage and a student. It was Dean Gordon and the president of the student body, walking

00:54:20.070 - 00:54:48.750

hand in hand and doing everything together. So long as there are open discussions like that between faculty and student representatives, we don't have to worry about sds and uh uh other uh trouble making elements in this campus. No, they both displayed really magnificent leadership, real magnificent

00:54:48.760 - 00:55:05.340

leadership. And so did all the college presidents. I was so impressed that when it was over, I spent an afternoon writing a personal letter to president of the student body and to the president of each college. I I thought they should be told we usually act

00:55:05.350 - 00:55:19.860

too much. On the principle, we don't like things people do we criticize but we never compliment people when we really approve. You know, I think copies of those letters would uh would make a contribution to this whole project. Uh I don't know if I still have

00:55:19.870 - 00:55:33.810

on file or not. I might, but if you should, I think that would be OK. If I do all try to send a copy down, get a photocopy and send it down, I'd be interested in your uh reactions to the events of uh of that Saturday.

00:55:33.820 - 00:55:56.969

Were there any particular um uh speeches or talks uh at the teaching in the, in the gym, Saturday morning that stand out in your mind? Well, not particularly, I uh one thing I probably single out is that some of the people who own the Masterson camp,

00:55:58.699 - 00:56:19.310

one faculty member cost in one student. If you talk of people who had to take courage in hand, it was that group that morning because you know, the boat there, I don't know what it was 900 something to 20 something. And uh they were given up

00:56:19.320 - 00:56:47.030

a light hearing and particularly that student who represented us. And it took real courage for him to say things that he did before a whole hostile student body. The whole thing was beautifully conducted, I think, no obscenities, no efforts to intimidate, no effort whatsoever to repress

00:56:48.909 - 00:57:10.899

anybody's right to say just exactly what he wanted do you recall. Um, if any of the speeches seem to have uh uh more effect on the, uh, the student body that morning than, than others do any specs stand out in your mind in that respect. Well,

00:57:11.020 - 00:57:32.719

that one, I probably, my answer would no doubt be influenced by what especially affected me too. One of them is Jack Wards largely because he brought out there, what my big fear was and that is what this would do to recruit. Holding on, hanging on to

00:57:32.729 - 00:57:57.459

younger people, recruitment in the English Department. As always, I thought Clark Reed did a very fine job and I think he had considerable influence over them. Then I think Sass did a very fine job and had considerable influence over. Now, this is just my own impression

00:57:57.469 - 00:58:13.879

of what happens to stick in my own mind. I might be unfair to other people after all this happened several months ago, I just intervene. Well, you mentioned that um Doctor Ward talked about the effect that the appointment would have on recruitment. And I think uh

00:58:14.149 - 00:58:30.080

Doctor Reid is the one who used the phrase the verge of greatness, verge of greatness threshold. And he used that very effectively. I think as I recollected, he got considerable applauds. So his uh the point that he brought out there was uh with the effect it

00:58:30.090 - 00:58:47.280

would have on the on the university growth. Do you recall uh the particular point that Doctor Sass brought out No, I don't recall a point at all. Now, so then there was the march and um were you uh were you able to attend the uh noon

00:58:47.290 - 00:59:07.139

meeting? Uh when Masterson came out and spoke to the students? That'd be in your impression. I was, let me mention one impression there, like one impression. I think it should be on record. Give one impression and it probably no doubt is, was one other, was one

00:59:07.149 - 00:59:28.969

scene that I didn't like, which is a faculty member shaking his hand at masters. And I thought he should have restrained himself and one or two students. But now the only television run I saw that that was just one inch was precisely that. And nothing else

00:59:29.709 - 00:59:55.689

in the contrast between the report of the whole crisis in the Houston Post and in the Chronicle and later on, I read the New York Times is really something New York Times, of course, very objective. I think the chronicle quite objective. But, and I hope this

00:59:55.699 - 01:00:14.500

gets to them. There was ever a case of distorted dishonest yellow journalism. It was the way the Post handled this whole thing. It was a disgraceful, I think. And it made me worry all the rice students who read both accounts, what views, what opinion are they

01:00:14.510 - 01:00:29.939

going to get on newspapers. And the thing that I think is wrongly bandied about, but it looms up largely in the minds of students, the establishment when they see what had to be such deliberate willful distortion in the whole picture in what was printed in the

01:00:29.949 - 01:00:56.280

post. I'm probably going way off to a tangent here. But no, this, this has been brought up before and it's uh I think it's very worthwhile to have it reinforced by a material view. It's uh it's, they, they come in for a great deal of the

01:00:56.290 - 01:01:19.010

criticism and no doubt just what so uh any newspaper man has a right, any newspaper has a right to say what they want in the editorial page. And the chronicle certainly didn't pack the uh what was done on the back by any means in the editorial

01:01:19.020 - 01:01:38.090

section. But they had a full right to do that as the distortion of the n but I have checked with you. Did you uh uh involve yourself in any of the um talks that went on for perhaps 30 minutes or so before Doctor Masterson um uh

01:01:38.379 - 01:01:54.280

came up and talked to the students that he end of March or no, I, I was just together and uh groups of anything from two to a dozen or so. That's all. Was there anything especially noteworthy uh going on in those talks that you heard? Not

01:01:54.290 - 01:02:25.600

to my knowledge. What was your impression about Doctor Masson's performance when he came out? He, first of all, I think it took real courage for him to say what he did. On the other hand, I think, tone of voice and his whole demeanor reinforced what faculty

01:02:25.610 - 01:02:52.280

and students felt were those parts of his personality that would really objectionable. And that's an rather authoritarian. I will not consult anyone and do what I think best you can all go blinky blank attitude. I'm afraid it reinforced that he had reinforced what the students seem

01:02:52.290 - 01:03:10.040

to believe. I talked to some of the leaders. It was a real and authoritarian complex, their attitude that I am the boss. And if you don't like it, you'll get out. I really think of the stories that hurt him more of the conference with the student

01:03:10.050 - 01:03:27.459

leaders. I couldn't believe it. So I checked after it was mentioned at Brown, I checked with the master of another college and a God. It didn't follow exactly the same words was his answer to the question. Given the opposition, you've probably heard this one before. Given

01:03:27.469 - 01:03:47.179

the opposition to your appointment as president. Do you think you'd be effective president? Then? The way I remembered from the way it was set at Brown and check later on? Oh, well, give me 6, 1218 months, most of them will be gone and the rest of

01:03:47.189 - 01:04:06.760

them will come around that hurt him more with the student leaders than I think anything else he said in those two long sessions. I'm just mentioning it as it was I recollect. It was reported to me. Those words would certainly seem to indicate a steamroller attitude

01:04:06.770 - 01:04:24.530

toward uh, yes. Faculty if you don't, aren't with me out. You go out. At least there was a fear if you aren't with me, you can just, even if you're tenured, you can just count on all kinds of harassment and eventually maybe, uh, the inflation will

01:04:24.540 - 01:04:46.620

take care of you. Well, it just, your nerves are, won't hold out any longer. At least that's the fear it conjured up in various, it reinforced, I would say conjured up but reinforced their mid minds. You mentioned having lunch with one of the uh college presidents,

01:04:46.629 - 01:05:13.129

uh that they, uh uh were his reactions to it similar to yours? Uh We've just asked me questions about him as a person, a member of the faculty and of uh how he was as a dean. And, um, I try to give them as honest answers

01:05:13.139 - 01:05:33.379

as they could obviously give them strong feelings. They, uh not everybody would agree probably that uh they were balanced but, and then, uh he also asked to or an indication he'd ask, what do you think in trying to get the full picture of just what he's

01:05:33.389 - 01:05:55.149

like? You think this kind of question should be asked to that one? And I remember in the midst of the conversation, why we came to the green. The important thing is that you people yourselves come to your own independent conclusions as to how effective you think

01:05:55.159 - 01:06:20.080

he would be. That's what I remember. But I sort of had the feeling that this student president was just groping to try to find out how he could honestly get the picture. He was neutral at that time. Uh, at least as neutral as someone could be

01:06:20.090 - 01:06:51.479

after, uh, uh, the protest march and the, uh, talks at the gymnasium. But he was still certainly partly on the fence. Which college president was this, uh, was this one of the seven college presidents? Just one of the seven here? Right. Well, let's see. Then, uh

01:06:51.489 - 01:07:07.469

you said that Sunday, you uh did not attend that, that meeting, but you did attend the Brown College meeting. We discussed that. In fact, Sunday, my only participation in anything on Sunday was by way of a fairly large number of telephone conversations at home till Sunday

01:07:07.479 - 01:07:29.830

evening. Then Monday, uh the vote was taken. Uh You've given me an indication of the vote in the history department. Is it your impression that uh the faculty vote went about this percentage throughout? Uh Well, now all I'm going on is hearsay. And uh so I'll

01:07:29.840 - 01:07:53.750

just give you my impression of hear, say that some departments have got 100% anti like English geology that there's only all the departments went anti with the possible exception of one of them. And I don't know from whether I heard if it was uh all I

01:07:53.760 - 01:08:16.390

could say it was very, very close, at least. And what I heard by e saying, obviously somebody would have committed an egregious aryan matters in good taste. Had they posted the results? After all, you have to spare the feelings of the person concerned by your say

01:08:16.419 - 01:08:35.660

it was 80% faculty. And I, that's on the second part, a 90% student. Is that more or less? What you heard about? The same thing as I've heard, uh 80 in the faculty and not to see this, there must be some basis for it. It's uh

01:08:35.669 - 01:08:55.488

the same figure keeps popping up. In other words, the overall vote. Uh The faculty was so much stronger in the negative than the history. But there you had two very, very, very close uh bodies and then somebody else who was very close to them and almost

01:08:55.499 - 01:09:22.729

of those bodies. So that's what you had in that case. And the fourth one, someone who was obviously hoping to fish in troubled waters, looking back over this whole experience, doctor. Um has it um have you learned anything new from it in the way of uh

01:09:23.208 - 01:09:45.660

of how people uh are influenced or how opinions are molded or how groups interact with each other? Uh Have you, I think I learned two things, one of them as you get older, no matter how much you try to have your ideas change and change with

01:09:45.669 - 01:10:12.270

the times and understand younger people. It's difficult. But here was an example that pointed out so clearly to me why so many of our most intelligent idealistic young people in colleges and universities are beginning to reinforce each other in a cynical attitude towards what they call

01:10:12.279 - 01:10:39.020

the elders or the establishment or people who run things. Because looking at from their point of view, this was a cynical effort to frustrate or bypass a faculty student committee. I thought hypocrisy pointing it in the first time. In the first instance, if they did it

01:10:39.270 - 01:11:02.430

and pay no attention to sentiments, a student and faculty, I think I regain more insight into what. So I, what I would say, most thinking and the best, most idealistic youngsters, what makes them a take uh their ideas about us on our side of the fence

01:11:02.439 - 01:11:38.970

than I could have otherwise. And another thing of course is what organized action in a restrained way where the hotheads are restrained can do. And then I suppose we could say again, accidents, we had the good luck here of just having a whole, a lot of

01:11:38.979 - 01:11:55.970

little things fall into line, in fact. And this just happens to be accidental that it happened to be an accidental meeting of the two people I mentioned there on this petition getting together with the other but accidental meeting of two people who worried and who felt

01:11:55.979 - 01:12:15.250

well, certainly somebody is going to have something organized, but just in case they don't, we should do it. The accidental. Uh and this is just coincidence again that uh some of the younger people who felt who were inclined to be much, much more emotional of the

01:12:15.259 - 01:12:34.279

issue about the issue and who have a great respect for the younger people. Faculty happen to be there helping to this. So this means that uh some of the people would probably have been more inclined to go off the deep end were committed, at least indirectly

01:12:34.290 - 01:13:01.149

through uh this then the sheer luck of what happened at that meeting throughout. Also, I think a demonstration of what organized well mannered to consider a democratic protest and do if it's handled in a democrat. Oh, so again, I think we were very lucky. What I

01:13:01.160 - 01:13:24.959

was scared to death of is what would happen. And I was already wondering what I could do to do my little bit to stop extremism, what would happen? This thing dragged out had Masterson not resign, then we might have had vandalism or again, I could see

01:13:24.970 - 01:13:41.169

another thing and a lot of it would have been very honest too. Um Some of the people, the faculty whose Motors would be the most honest and whom I respect the most would have said, well, we can't possibly stop this. So let's join and see what

01:13:41.180 - 01:13:59.250

we can do when he gets here and had more faculty people who had strongly voted no in a week or two veered around in this other direction. I would have been very much worried about the cynicism of some of the students and how much longer the

01:13:59.259 - 01:14:21.459

radical group could be held in check. Now when you have even the students for democratic society voting a parallel resolution. I again, by rumor, I heard strong pressure was brought on him highly student leaders, but when you have them has a resolution like that, I certainly

01:14:21.470 - 01:14:41.000

couldn't say that that instance, at least there was a dangerous element on the campus trying to burn up and destroy the life, faculty and students as a consequent result of this, I think, got much closer together than they have any time since I and I think

01:14:41.009 - 01:14:58.689

gained much closer mutual respect for each other. You know, uh since this uh uh episode that uh there's a great deal of more communication between the two of an informal nature that if people feel freer to uh that I would know on my own case, I

01:14:58.700 - 01:15:13.209

think they're somewhat closer. Of course, I mean, so much in the graduate end and editing end of it, that one of the things I uh dislike most of what a pattern I fall into is that I'm not nearly as close to undergraduate students as I'd like

01:15:13.220 - 01:15:40.959

to. So you'd probably get a better answer to that question. You'd have to get someone like Alan Matao or um who is very close to the students or Alan Groton. Is there anyone um here uh that you know of who would be very familiar with uh

01:15:41.160 - 01:15:54.700

Doctor Masterson's performance being a time he's been in Chattanooga. I was wondering if you had ever heard from any of your colleagues or any statements, uh, I would say get in touch for that side of a, of a man who I think was in very close

01:15:54.709 - 01:16:20.009

contact with him and try to tell him for his sake of rice, he should resign. And that is, um, a former chairman of, uh, a street Fulk of Philosophy Street Fulton certainly would, uh, could mention it awful. It could be very, very helpful. Did anyone suggest

01:16:20.020 - 01:16:36.129

to you that uh perhaps, uh what, um everyone recalled that Doctor Masterson's uh performances in of humanity that, that possibly in the last three years of the student movement that, that maybe he might have uh uh in a position of president that maybe he might have

01:16:36.140 - 01:17:00.319

changed some of his views. Uh, or do you think that uh that uh the authoritarian outlook, the sort of hia hierarchical outlook is a permanent feature of his personality? Well, anybody could change. But I would say in this case, there's much, much less likelihood that he

01:17:00.330 - 01:17:18.009

changed in that direction than there is in uh many friends of mine who are about the same age, Masterson and I are somewhat relative of the same age. I'm a little older, but I think I know quite a few people my own age who would be

01:17:18.020 - 01:17:37.080

more likely to have their outlook change in light of the time that Masterson there, any activities and demonstrations at the University of Chattanooga. So, I don't know, he's had an experience in a confrontation which might have altered his, I know I heard various people connected with

01:17:37.089 - 01:18:01.250

Hanson College say how overjoyed they were and how they celebrated when they learned that he was leaving because he apparently was, they think now at least three years later, uh, I ran Hanson College in a rather high handed dictatorial whether the people who were here three

01:18:01.259 - 01:18:26.379

or four years ago actually thought, oh, that's something else heard it from students this spring about the real celebrations that they, you mentioned something earlier in your conversation about uh the kind of school rice used to be say back in the thirties. Uh What uh um

01:18:26.390 - 01:18:59.439

does this conjure up in your mind? Uh a small undergraduate college hole with a small faculty, very little emphasis on research, nothing really professional, small student body, excellent student body and a good, relatively good and quite good and certainly very hard teaching faculty. I tried to

01:18:59.450 - 01:19:17.220

make that difference because I think there really is a big difference between a faculty member who's just hard and a faculty member who is very good. A very good fire teacher might be hard, but the two of them are not identical. And you uh you think

01:19:17.229 - 01:19:36.870

that this is the kind of uh image that uh Masterson had in mind uh horizon. I was afraid that he would not wholly, but I was afraid that he'd, they are more in that direction and uh in the direction of dynamic growth. Because in line with

01:19:36.879 - 01:19:56.620

my philosophy, I think Rice has to keep up with the times and an age when we're becoming more and more professional, more graduate work, more emphasis on going farther and farther and more emphasis on research and on teaching our research method to youngsters, we have to

01:19:56.629 - 01:20:17.720

progress in that direction or we might sink backwards as a small little Backwater College that's was pitcher's great contribution. He pushed it rapidly in this direction. I think up to now, we've been so extremely fortunate in having three really magnificent presidents each won. Exactly right, for

01:20:17.729 - 01:20:41.899

his time. And by about the time one, the idea of one out grow rice or rather, should we say rice had outgrown their ideas and you had a new one who was just exactly right. That's our great fortune. And I think that's why I was worried

01:20:41.910 - 01:21:10.859

too after three such great prints. Yes, I don't mean this personally. He has a great deal of charm. He has a lot of very nice personal. It's just to worry about the presidency. There are a lot of very nice, charming, delightful people who make impossible presidents

01:21:11.169 - 01:21:34.720

or impossible historians or impossible teachers or impossible ditch diggers or anything. Well, I certainly appreciate the, uh, the uh interview you've given us Doctor Rath. Um Is there anything more you'd like to uh add that? Uh, I might have failed to take to ask you. No,

01:21:34.729 - 01:21:51.040

it's just anything that I could at this moment when, as you know, uh, election is my recollection, some of the details is getting a little hazy. Uh, we're not really after chronology. We, that's pretty well on record. We're, we're interested in the, in your reactions and

01:21:51.049 - 01:22:05.680

your evaluations of the events that they took place. And, uh, you have our interview. Well, I'm sure that Harold Hyman is on record here because if he will be, uh, we just barely started the faculty, we were trying to get the students before another person who

01:22:05.689 - 01:22:24.870

is very, of course, probably as strongly on the other side as anyone. I'm sure you're thinking of getting him. Although he'll probably be. And that's, uh, Masterson's closest friend here. That's, uh, Higginbotham and Hard B to get that side of it. Although he's busy as can

01:22:24.879 - 01:22:43.859

be to get the pro masters inside of it again. Why, you know, I think you should have Frank Vandever knees on or not? Those, uh, do I have a pen here also a pro masters inside and a man for whose self ability, I have a great

01:22:43.870 - 01:23:13.879

deal of respect. I have one here cost the Natal. Mhm. Because I know you all be, you know, Anderson getting as many different sides by all means. I think we have to, uh, put it, we have to document, uh, and I made it perfectly clear that

01:23:13.890 - 01:23:37.220

I'm not neutral on this issue. I wasn't and then I would say, uh, particularly the other to get the full picture of that petition before people I mentioned to were in the Mata's offices. Yeah. Now Matao is out of town. I think the restaurant is still

01:23:37.229 - 01:23:50.479

here. Matao will be out until next September. Ok. Well, August when school starts again. Right. Well, we, uh, we kind of continue right on through the summer and, uh, I think they, uh, refunded until the first of October so that any of those who are away

01:23:50.490 - 01:24:01.620

for the summer we can get to when they return. It was all fine. Uh, thank you so much for coming in. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I enjoyed talking to you. Time is now 1145.