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This is Polly Moore. Today is September 8, 1969. This is interview number 54 Professor Zvi Salzburg. So now set the dial to zero. The time is three o'clock. We're at Bonder Library in the research center. This is tape 22 side one. Could I ask you just

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to give me your name and uh telephone number, I mean, not telephone number but uh, 00, your wife's address. And let's see how this registers. All right, Zvi W Salisbury room 310 chemistry laboratory. Ok. Well, Doctor uh Salzburg, just to, uh, reiterate for the record, what

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I was saying about what we're looking for in these interviews. I wonder if we could start out, uh, getting an idea of what your attitudes were, uh, even prior to the formation of the faculty advisory committee. What did it mean to you? For instance, when Kenneth

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pitcher resigned? Well, I, I think it was on the whole a disappointment, there were certain specific actions that Pitzer had taken, which I disagreed with, but I think these were relatively few and I felt he was the type of leader that I enjoyed having around Rice

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University. And it was a shock in many ways when he did resign, I must admit that a recurrent thought during the previous year or two year was that, uh, there was, there was a strong possibility that he would eventually leave. I knew he was a national

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figure and as such, might be attracted to other places. And yet when he actually did resign, it still came as quite a shock. What are some of the things that, that he did that you uh favored? Well, I think first of all, he satisfied my need

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for a leader, a person I could look up to because of his intellectual and professional accomplishments. Second of all, I respected him greatly for his really quite brilliant mind. I think he had a brilliant mind was very sharp and uh very alert and I always had

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a great deal of confidence from an intellectual point of view in most of his decisions. And then, uh as far as what he did around the university and what accomplished, that's more difficult to outline. He did push the university, I think a great deal try to

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push it toward a national position. And in this regard, I think sometimes, uh I was slightly in disagreement with him and in some things, he overemphasized the amount of expansion that he pushed in various areas. But uh I still think it was good for the university.

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I, I guess I felt that at the time he was here the university did achieve a great deal more stature nationally. I felt that helped me for one, my own professional standing and my own professional outlook. Uh and I think the other things, it would be

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hard, it would be hard for me to describe. I'd have to really just go back and think of some specific events and comment on them individually. You mentioned that there are some things that you didn't agree with with him on was the expansion or the way

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he expanded part of this. I think partly it was I can recognize the pressure to expand into a lot of areas. I think from the policy of the university, I always felt strongly that one should only get into an area or into a certain development if

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you were able to support it fully. And I felt in some ways he juggled the resources of the university to satisfy a lot of demands for expansion. I I know that there are always some segments I myself would fight for some of them that we felt

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had to be expanded. Yet I felt basically a wiser policy would have been to have made a selection among these areas and have put full backing or resources into them. Did you uh have any idea that your your goals for rice were any different from his

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goals as regards uh the emphasis on undergraduate education versus graduate education? No, in this, in this regard, we were very close together, we had the same view of a university which I think is a somewhat traditional view to particularly to research scientists that have been associated

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with universities. But the proportion of emphasis on graduate research, undergraduate research that he thought of coincided very closely with mine. Well, then, uh when did you realize that it would be necessary to search for a new man? Uh uh Were you particularly active in this before

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you became a member of the committee or? No? No, I wasn't active in it. Uh All sorts of thoughts went through my mind and incidentally, can I back up just for a moment? On the previous things? I said my goals for a university were the same

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as his. I don't know whether people have recorded what they thought his, his ideas were on versus graduate versus undergraduate research. I think they were to a large extent that the proper way to do something was to develop a strong graduate department in a certain area

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that uh having developed a strong graduate department. Uh much of the uh problems of the undergraduate education would be solved. Now, that may seem a little unusual. But what I mean by that is that emphasizing to a great extent at the beginning, a graduate development would

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attract good people, people with national, first of all, national rep reputations, which in turn would keep and attract younger people who were enthusiastic about their field and their work. And you couldn't help but get as a result of this good education, at least enthusiastic type development

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of undergraduate education. I think he uh Pitzer did. I, I realize now I haven't stated it very well or exactly. But I think in many ways, Pitzer worked on a little bit on this thesis and was one that I could subscribe to, but getting back to

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the emphasis you've placed on it. No, when he resigned, I, and I guess a number of other people often speculated on who might be an appropriate uh president. There were a lot of things that we said half in jest other ideas that occurred to us seriously

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at one time or another. But I, I never really pursued anything. I never took it very seriously until the committee was actually formed and some process was started. Um Were you uh pleased to be a member of this committee? Um Yes, I think I was pleased.

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I was pleased by the fact. Uh I sort of felt complimented by the fact that I was elected by the faculty and I was looking forward to it. It seemed, it was a new type of experience for me and I was anxious to be involved in

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it. Did you yourself have any candidates in mind? Uh whose names you submitted uh uh for consideration? No, I didn't uh can't remember a single candidate, which I felt that I wanted to submit myself. I gathered several names that other people had suggested to me from

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the department or outside the department. Uh I usually went to, usually these were names on a slip of paper and I went to the trouble of looking up the standard biographical information, either American men of science or who's who sort of and getting that together to

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submit it for our file. But I didn't seriously think of any names nor did I actually uh sit down and compose any names myself. Usually the names that I had thought of were already submitted by or suggested by other people and I just took their suggestions.

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Well, I'd be interested in hearing uh your uh impressions of, of how the committee was progressing in its work. Uh I guess the first thing it did was have an election for a chairman or something. Yes, I'd forgotten about that. I think the very first preliminary

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meeting we had, we elected a chairman, which was of course, Doctor Brat. And we also discussed the question of the student members or student advisor and the basic decision if I remember it at that time was to asked the student members to come to bring them

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on and in all the procedures to treat them as full members of the committee and to avoid the question initially about who had a vote and who had particular standings and so forth. We decided that if it ever came to the question of being, oh, say,

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interviewing serious candidates on the on the campus. And there was some question of whether the students would be discreet enough or whether it ever came to voting on certain recommendations that we try and cross that bridge when we came to it in the back of our

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minds was the idea that probably only the faculty members really had any real final vote. But we felt in all the deliberations and all the discussions and particularly in all the work of the committee, uh these questions should be ignored and the students treat it uh

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on an equal basis. Did you ever hold any executive sessions without the students? Only that very first one. And that was before any of the students were elected from then on, the students attended every session that was held uh in the election of chairman. Did you

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have any preference uh uh as to who should be chairman? Uh did the vote go the way you wanted it to go? Uh Yes, I don't remember there being a great deal of controversy. I, I favored Doctor Bro and I think the only other name which

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broaden himself had suggested was uh Mr Cll. Uh at that time, I didn't know Mr Cell very well and I think my personal preferences ran to Doctor Bronson. Was it a close election that you recall? No, I think it was more or less by mutual agreement.

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It wasn't hardly an election in any formal sense if I remember? Right. But all six members were there. Uh, I think all the faculty members were there at that time. I couldn't, I, I couldn't absolutely verify that, but I don't remember anybody being missing at that

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point. Well, as the committee did its work, how, what was your impression of the way it was progressing rather disappointingly slowly. It seemed that we were just spinning our wheels. I, I admit a lot of work had to be done in just gathering names and trying

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to get the information together. But the big stumbling block seemed to be, uh having any specific charge for the committee, knowing what our responsibilities were. And the key thing seemed to be some meeting with the trustees in which they would outline how we would participate in

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such a search and that never materialized. So I felt that at times we were busying ourselves with perhaps necessary work, but, uh, in a, in a manner in which it wasn't quite clear what we were doing or, and we certainly weren't making very much substantial progress

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to finding a, a really viable candidate. I mean, it's one thing speculating about the names of everybody from God on down. And another thing being realistic about who might come. Did, um, did you have any ideas about, uh whether the committee was aggressive or assertive enough,

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uh, or did you think that you were doing about as much as you could in view of them and what you've been told to do. Well, we probably lacked a certain amount of aggression we could have under the view of the circumstances at the time. I

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suppose we could have taken a good deal more into our hands. Uh But we really felt that at least I felt that there was no question that the trustees were going to at least come together with us and, and outline their ideas and we, we, we'd

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reach some mutual understanding of what the different roles were. And I never really expected the committee to have any definitive choice. I mean, or decision making power and the choice of the president. I always sort of felt confident that we would uh be allowed to express

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opinions and to relate faculty opinions about candidates and comments. And this sure be simply because of its wisdom, so to speak, would have the proper weight with the trustees on the committee. That's sort of a naive idealistic view that I had, but I never expected the

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committee or never thought the committee should take command of the situation and actually promote or give a list of names from whom the president would have to be chosen or anything like that. Did anyone else on the committee seem to have that idea to coincide with

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my ideas or, or have the idea that the committee should take a more uh more of a leadership role. Well, that they should uh give a, the last thing that you said they should give a list of names from which the man should be selected. Uh

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I don't remember anybody saying that specifically. Let me put it that way, but I think there were others on the committee and perhaps some of the student members who sort of perhaps had that as their ideal of how the committee should re should operate. That the

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committee should do the search, select a list of names and present them to the trustees from which uh the president would be chosen. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that were the ideal with which some members of the committee operated, any faculty members or just

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multiply student members. Well, it was most clear, I think in the case of some of the student members that that would have been their ideal. Uh I think the faculty members varied in their opinions, some were closer, closer to mine or some felt that perhaps the

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committee could in principle take a much, a much more leadership role. It wasn't quite clear with the faculty members as clear. I don't think it was as clear to me from the impressions again, let me say that nobody really stated what they felt in so many

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specific terms, what the committee should do. But uh but it, I I just gained these impressions from comments that others had made. Uh were you ever aware of any uh polarization of opinion within the committee uh or did uh or did there never come up an

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issue that uh would it never really came to any strong polarization. There was a little bit I would say between engineering and science and humanities, engineering, science. On one hand, humanities, on the other hand, uh huh, that came out a couple of times, very indirectly, other

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than that, um there were hints of possible polarization if we'd ever gotten down to really discussing qualifications of specific people, which we never did. Hence, that uh particularly some of the students might be concerned about very different things in some of the faculty concerned about certain

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criteria. Well, like what for instance? Uh well, I think the fac faculty would have been much more concerned about uh professional competence, a man's national reputation in his own scholarly or professional field. Uh The students probably would have been concerned much more about to his role

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in undergraduate education or his liberalness. Let me put it that way, his liberalness toward newer freedoms for students and newer ideas and student participation. And I had a feeling that uh if we had ever gotten down to listing criteria that a man as president should have

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and try to label them number 1234 in order or how we feel they their importance stood, we would have in our list. The 1st 10 criteria probably been in very much in agreement everybody on the committee. But there might have been quite a bit of dis

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disagreement as to which came first, which are the most important criteria. Well, and actually that suggests there was a great great deal of consensus within the committee on the, on the main issue, on the main issues there were, this would have been, uh these, this would

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have been sort of minor things. I think this would have only shown up if we really got down to really comparing two or three people seriously. Then I think the difference of only at that stage, a difference of opinion as to what really came first would

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have shown up on the whole of the committee. Of course, work in a very congenial manner and very well together, except that they didn't do anything. When you mentioned that there, there was a hint of uh maybe a little polarization on the science on the one

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side and the humanities on the other. Uh I'm interpreting this to mean and correct me if I'm wrong that uh the scientist would uh lean toward having a scientist, president and the humanitarians or the humanists wanted uh a humanist. Not entirely, I think we were all

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in agreement that we were gonna be open minded and look at anybody. Uh I think uh there was a feeling on the pa time on the part of some of the hu humanists that now it was time to have somebody outside the sciences that idea came

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out that it was appropriate, uh which would almost seem to be giving a preference. That's right. II, I sort of read that in, it never came out directly. And I know I felt a tinge, slight tinge of resentment when this, occasionally, when this issue came up.

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And I always try to emphasize that, uh, we don't want to express such slight preferences at this time. I could see it and I could recognize it. I guess if it were only me by myself, I still would feel much more at home with a scientist

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that was somebody I can always speak to. Uh But I tried my best to suppress such feelings and such and take the view. And I, I, at the time, I really felt that we should almost disregard the man's own field of specialty. We should look at

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the broader criteria that he has and hasn't throw it open and not try to even shade one application or the over the other depending upon what his scholarly field was. So I felt, but I did feel that on the part of the people who were concerned

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about humanities that at least they seem to imply that they felt that it was their turn so to speak or that at least that should be brought into consideration. Would this be mostly uh topazio uh to a certain extent, I think felt this way topazio didn't

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express it though, he might have felt this way at that time. Uh I think some of the students seem to imply that they were often much more open in their, I think, in expressing what their true thoughts were than the faculty or something. I seem to

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have gotten that from them. But again, these are all things that I'm partially reading into statements, it wasn't anything open or wasn't anything very direct or, I don't even know how strong, how, what was your uh personal uh uh attitude toward the five names that were

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eventually submitted to the board? Uh uh Were you pretty much in agreement that, that these were the, the top 1% of the names you had or were there some people who were not on the list on the list? No, I didn't take that attitude at all

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toward it. In fact, I would be hard put to say they were in the top 10% in any sense. As a matter of fact, I had not even read all the folders either. I'm a slower reader than some of the others, but I had fallen into

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the group that hadn't even looked at all the names. By the time we made that selection, my impression at that time that this was hardly any selection at all that this was specifically a device to get some response from the trustees. I was in agreement that

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these names seemed reasonable. They seemed like the type of people we would want to explore, but I had not put in the thought or as I said, even read all the folders to make a decision that these were really the absolutely the top people. Nor did

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we even have the facts for some of them. We barely had all we had from. There was their age as the date they were born, their field and a little bit about what they had done or what position they held. And we relied to a large

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extent on comments by others who felt they had some more information, had either read one of the man's works or had read an article. And if I had known that that list would ever be, have been taken to have been in some sense, the choice of

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the committee, I would have voted against sending it as it is. I was in agreement to sending it because I thought of it purely as a device to start some response from the trustees to find out whether they were alive or whether they recognized that we

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had any role to play uh as a device. Uh Did, did you think it was about the best device that was available or did you have uh any other? Uh No, I was, I think it was a device suggested by Doctor Braden. And uh I was

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in agreement. It seemed to me the most appropriate way of getting some response that we had been unsuccessful and suggesting more general things like meetings or, or delineation of uh of uh duties, things of that sort. And we thought that if we send something very specific

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in, uh, it sort of demanded or a letter of some sort and might start a chain of, of, of action. At least they had some concrete criteria. I mean, we were asking a very specific question. I think the question we were asking, I forget the letter

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that was sent in but implied there is, could we investigate any further? That is, could we start contacting people that we knew on these campuses? So, and find out the facts with the man's wife was a heavy drinker or what you see? And up until then,

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we didn't feel at all authorized to make any personal investigations. And I think, I think we were sort of aiming, had gotten down to the desperate point where we wanted some specific answers on very specific questions like this and this was just the first attempt to

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start getting them from the, from the trustee group. Well, we're getting back down now, uh, chronologically to the point where you found out the board made a decision. But before we leave this committee, uh, area, is there anything further that, uh, you'd like to comment on

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regarding, uh, any of those activities, up to say the board's announcement? I consider that a very passive stage of development at that time. And, uh, on the whole, I think it was a very conservative committee, I would classify it as that sort of thing and one

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which the board could have gotten really a lot of serious co-operation from, uh, I mean, I think the committee would have really been helpful in the way of soliciting information faculty information, which usually isn't available even from other universities at the board level. I mean, if

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a board member goes in and asks the president or a dean about certain people, he gets one type of response. Faculty often have other channels of information. And I think in, I think that it was a type of committee that would have been very cooper in

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that way. But other than that, I, I have no, I, I have no really strong feelings about the committee or any other comments. I think I should make. Well, how did you first become aware then that uh a uh a meeting was in the offing at

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which uh something drastic was going to be announced. I got a call late at night from Doctor Braden who was informing us all that he had an emergency meeting and the minute he said he had an emergency meeting, I was able to tell him what it

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was about. I mean, it was probably the tone of his voice or the fact that there would be an emergency meeting. And I said the trustees had chosen the president. I mean, I think it was obvious without thinking why it was obvious at that time. Did

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you have any idea? No. Uh at the time, I, I mean, at that moment, I had no idea who it might be. And I asked him and he said, well, he was privileged information and that Mr Allen was going to appear before the committee and would

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have wanted to announce it at that time. But he said to me, it's the worst of all possible choices. And uh I think he said it jokingly, he said, think of the worst of all possible choices. And, uh again, without Harley, a moment's thought, I said

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that it was Bill Masterson and, uh, he didn't say anything but, uh, let it go. And I knew so I knew immediately what that, that's who it was in the decision. He said something to effect. Well, I think, well, you want to come to a meeting

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and say, what made you guess, Masterson? Oh, I almost guessed it as a matter of a joke I would say because, uh in the, in the private jokes around the university, at least among the faculty. And in the committee, there were two names that were used

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to epitomize certain ridiculous choices, at least ridiculous choices in our mind. One was Lyndon Johnson who epitomized the decision purely on political grounds. You know, the political figure that one might choose. And the other was Masterson. And the reason uh his name was mentioned is that

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it obviously had come up around town through trustee, through alumni, I shouldn't say trustee through alumni. Uh It had been suggested before and in many ways, one could make a superficial c uh a superficial, strong case for it. After all, he'd been an old r and

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man had strong connections in the city, had been here as Dean of Humanities and now had experience as president of a small college. So on the, on the paper case, on the surface case, one could make it out. And yet I think all of us were

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aware of the very serious difficulties that were involved in this election as president. And so it had become this sort of uh name which epitomized some type of uh way out choice that we couldn't, that, that one wouldn't possibly consider. And so I think that's part

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of the reason behind it. And I said it half jokingly, but from the response that broad had given me, I really knew at that time that it was the choice and it was sort of a shock. I, I just couldn't believe it at first. What uh

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what kind of disadvantages did you think Masterson would have as president? Well, of course, I'll preface by that by saying that our view of the president is an internal one. We recognize that he has to act as a leader and he has to and he's not

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a dictator around the university. He really needs the cooper operation of the faculty. And the thing that I knew personally was how many personal enemies or that he had around in the faculty who were in responsible positions. Uh I have, I still don't know to this

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day the reasons for all of them, but I knew they existed. I had been aware of comments that occurred when he was here and comments afterwards and I knew there were very strong feelings and I real realized that they were extensive enough that it would make

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it just simply impossible for him to work on this campus without having the huge turnover and faculty no matter what his other qualifications were. In fact, uh several of us pointed this out to cell when he mentioned Masterson on the committee once as one of the

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selections when his name came up. And I think it was perfectly clear to him when he we explained the situation that this was a choice which was not a viable one, independent really of the man's personal qualifications, simply because of the specific situation that existed on

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the campus. And in fact, when we had heard his name mentioned around the city and incidentally, it was mentioned around the city, my wife has a number of amusing tales about places she'd run across when the name was brought up as, oh yes, that's the choice

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possible choice for rice present. I always felt confident that uh once the situation was explained to the trustees too, they knew what it what it was that this would never be a serious choice either. Simply because III I honestly felt that it just was something that

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would create so much turmoil on the campus that he wouldn't have a chance to really act as a president and leader. He would be forever fighting sniping fire. You might say that would make it impossible for him to be a president. Did you have the impression

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that this would be true of anybody who was chosen internally who had uh been here in various administrative positions for long periods of time, for long periods of time. And that doesn't cover the Bill Gordon to a certain extent. It is true. Uh It's one of

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the dangers of choosing an internal thing in Masterson's case. It was, you couldn't write it off as being that as a man who had just made decisions, it was much more extensive. And as a matter of fact, I never realized how extensive it was. It obviously

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pervaded many people who had contact with him and I had the slightest suspicion that they'd ever feel that way. I was reading a revelation to me what came out afterwards and dare to, during the days of turmoil, you might say from what people have told me.

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But I knew at the time that Masterson's case, it was much more extensive than I had ever encountered in anybody else who had been in an administrative position. This is sort of a difficult question to, to answer because it's highly speculating. But if, if the boy

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had taken this action, say with Bratton or with Gordon? Do you think the reaction would have been, uh, similar or the same or? No? No. Yeah. Let's suppose they'd even taken the arbitrary action of, uh, not consulting a committee or not soliciting faculty opinion. Uh, there

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was still, would have been, I think some type of uproar or some type of, uh, you might say demonstration or objection, it wouldn't have gone to nearly the extent that it did. In other words, I don't believe it was really the issue that made things go

00:32:02.400 - 00:32:21.329

as far as they did. I think it was the man and it, it would have made things very hard for Bratton or, uh, Gordon to operate there. They would have had some bitter opponents on the campus. I suppose each one would because of personal things, the

00:32:21.339 - 00:32:41.819

decisions they had made. But still, I doubt very much that the, it would have been as extensive or as deep as it was against Masterson, the opposition to Masterson. Uh, when you think over it in your mind, uh, does, are these people generally, uh, whose departure

00:32:41.829 - 00:32:57.839

from rise would really be a loss to the universe? Oh, yes. I mean, it wasn't a matter of a few hotheads or people who are always upset are always, uh, oh, what shall I say? There are, there are always people group of people who are always

00:32:57.849 - 00:33:15.229

very critical of certain things and tend to take things very personally. And these people always, I think, make enemies of administrative personnel. But I would say that the opposition and surprisingly came from people that I have always considered very level headed and the mainstays of the

00:33:15.239 - 00:33:31.479

university, whether they would have left or not is another question. I don't know whether I don't know how many people would have left, but I think it was, it's very clear that, uh, he would have found it difficult to get the co-operation of these people. I

00:33:31.489 - 00:33:47.030

think the university would have quickly divided into small camps, each protecting their own interests. And the president, rather than being some cooper leader would have been the opposition, the person who you're fighting, who you're trying to maneuver around all the time. He would have had, uh

00:33:47.050 - 00:34:02.310

Masterson would have had a terrible job winning over people in some type of cooper effort. He would have started off with more than two strikes against them. What was your impression? Uh, or some of the things that stood out in your mind of the meeting, uh

00:34:02.319 - 00:34:20.959

with uh Ellen and tea then on. Uh, let's see, I guess that was a Thursday afternoon, the first meeting of the, of the committee, right. Just, just the committee itself. Well, having guessed what the situation was uh beforehand and having spent almost a sleepless night thinking

00:34:20.969 - 00:34:38.138

of thinking about it in the morning, thinking about it and having even taken some action or tried to that morning, I came to the committee sort of meeting and it sort of was a little bit to me as an anti climax. I must admit, I, when

00:34:38.148 - 00:34:52.760

I spoke to Mr Allen, I present presented it as a surprise to me at that moment because I knew I wasn't supposed to know the name of a specific person. I tried to argue with him about the selection, trying to point out what I felt was

00:34:52.770 - 00:35:09.429

the objection to Bill Masterson. Mainly his, what I thought was an inability to operate on campus. They made it clear that they had made a legal commitment that they had committed themselves to such extent that there was no reconsideration. And I recognize that and I think

00:35:09.439 - 00:35:25.719

the other point I tried to make at the time was, had they prepared Masterson himself for it because I realized that he was going to walk into a terribly difficult situation. And I think I even expressed in that Alan, he should, by all means, if he

00:35:25.729 - 00:35:48.100

felt he was any friend, Bill Masterson to get in touch with him and let him know exactly what the situation was. What was his reaction to your, uh your ideas? Uh I couldn't tell really at that time. Um I think he was a little bit surprised

00:35:48.110 - 00:36:08.290

at the intensity of the reaction. I don't think at the time he was taking it that seriously. I think some comments they had made, we read certain ways. I was asked once by Mr Teague, what part of the faculty I felt had this personal animosity or

00:36:08.300 - 00:36:28.689

personal resentment. And at that time, I tried by a little sample of a bit of sampling in my own mind among a few departments. So a guess about 10 or 12% and uh which I realized later on was a vast underestimation of where it actually stood.

00:36:28.899 - 00:36:44.110

And I think Mr Teague's reaction pressed us all to the extent. Well, we could afford to lose 10 or 12% something like that. If that, if worse came to worse, this was something your reaction to that idea. Yeah. Well, he didn't state it explicitly as such.

00:36:44.120 - 00:36:58.780

Uh It was the type of thing that he made some comment. Well, let's see, that's only uh so many out of so many or something like I, I couldn't repeat what he said and it was only afterwards in thinking over and reviewing the committee mind and

00:36:58.790 - 00:37:14.820

talking together with other members of the committee that we really came to the conclusion that we felt he was saying, well, the university could afford such a loss and at this time and still not cause any serious disruption. Uh I think, uh, afterwards I felt that

00:37:14.830 - 00:37:36.260

that's really demonstrated uh uh very little insight into what was happening. What a UN what happened on a campus of a university or how a university operated. You mentioned a moment ago that you had, um, it's been a sleepless night. Uh after you've gotten this telephone

00:37:36.270 - 00:37:54.500

call, uh, late from doctor bro. And, uh, and then you took action the next morning. What, what, uh, what action did you take or what were some of the things that the possibilities have crossed your mind? Well, my first thought was I had not known, of

00:37:54.510 - 00:38:09.060

course. Well, I had guessed the man that was present. I had not known at all about the commitment that I had made. And as far as I was concerned, it was something that, uh the trustees had made up their mind. But my first thought was to

00:38:09.070 - 00:38:29.330

postpone as much as possible. Any actual commitment, public announcement or final thing simply and try to get a situation where the facts could be presented to the trustee committee and they could sit down and consider it because I was completely convinced that they were unaware of

00:38:29.340 - 00:38:48.149

what the campus situation was that they had made the choice purely by external appearances. And I, uh, I think I speculated all night about it and what I could do or anything else. And I didn't know quite what to do except maybe to talk to some,

00:38:48.159 - 00:39:04.060

somehow get in touch with some of the other trustees. I, I think, uh I've known that Mr Allen was going to come and speak to us and I think that's all the information that I had gotten from Doctor Broxson. So the next morning, despite the fact

00:39:04.070 - 00:39:20.330

that I knew it would be a confident breaking of confidence. I called up Kenneth Pitzer at Stanford and indicated to him what I knew. And I think for the first time I've known him and I knew him for incidentally, for many years before he came to

00:39:20.340 - 00:39:36.979

Rice on a professional level for the first time, he was sort of speechless for five minutes. He was totally taken by surprise, but he did give me some of the information I wanted, namely who I could speak to the board of trustees or the Board of

00:39:36.989 - 00:39:56.389

Governors that might listen and might have some influence in seeing what in, in getting at least a review of the situation and getting some of the facts considered and who might be at least sympathetic to the, to the campus situation, who might understand what was going

00:39:56.399 - 00:40:14.449

on. And he sort of went down the list of people he had known and, and, and gave me his comments and his feelings. And so after speaking to him, I did act on his advice and the first person I called was uh Newton Grazer. No, he

00:40:14.459 - 00:40:29.070

was not, he was at his home in Denton. And as a matter of fact, I didn't get in touch with him until about a half an hour before the meeting because he was taking a nap early in the afternoon. And I gather due to some recent

00:40:29.080 - 00:40:47.270

sickness, he preferred not to be disturbed. I got in touch with him because Pitzer told me that he was the one who was aware of a lot of the difficulties that were going on on the campus. While Masterson was uh Dean of Humanities, he was obviously

00:40:47.280 - 00:41:03.879

aware of the antagonisms. And in fact, I think had been instrumental in bringing some of these even to Fitz's attention. So I felt that uh at that time, he would know what's he would be able to recognize what the situation was on the campus. And he'd

00:41:03.889 - 00:41:18.199

also be in a position to exert some influence if there was anything to be done. And so I spoke to him and I had about a half an hour conversation with him in Denton and he had obviously been informed who the choice was. And I spoke

00:41:18.209 - 00:41:35.419

to him frankly about the what feeling there was on the campus. And he was surprisingly well informed, he knew specifically which of departments and in many cases, which people were most outspoken adamant and his knowledge almost coincided with Lion. Again, I don't feel he, he really

00:41:35.429 - 00:41:54.040

knew to the extent to which this occurred. Uh When I asked him about it, it was clear that he had written this off as the usual group of enemies or antagonisms that a person would create simply being in an administrative position. He said this, I tried

00:41:54.050 - 00:42:08.649

to tell him, I felt it was even more than one usually encountered and he recognized it and he said he had thought a great deal about it and had come to the conclusion that it was a matter of the circumstances. He said after all, there were

00:42:08.659 - 00:42:21.199

a lot of people who would have liked to have been Dean of Humanities. At that time, he felt they were, this was a matter of resentment. It was a matter of promotion of one particular person when a lot of people in humanities division had sort of

00:42:21.209 - 00:42:37.939

hide the job or felt they should have some influence in it. So he said he had thought about it and had decided that this was all there was behind personal antagonism, but that he felt that if I simply went to the meeting and spoke to the

00:42:37.949 - 00:42:53.179

other trustees and, and told them seriously what was going, what was what I felt about the situation that they would carefully listen and they would give it due consideration. And in the end, he, he felt that he was in no position to interfere. He did not

00:42:53.189 - 00:43:08.939

want to even say anything. I don't think about it and that he uh felt that Bill Masterson would if we gave him a chance help with him, make a good present. And that, that sort of destroyed my hopes of doing anything a little bit through the

00:43:08.949 - 00:43:27.050

trustees. I made another attempt to get in touch with George Brown who was out of town at that time and didn't pursue it to the point of trying to track him down in Bermuda. Um these, I'm, I'm a little bit unclear in my mind about the

00:43:27.060 - 00:43:44.449

status of these two on the board of Trust. They were not, they were people who were, uh, they were not on the trustees anymore. They were a maritime members which put them in a very awkward position. I could understand Newton Razor not wanting to interfere. The

00:43:44.459 - 00:43:59.620

reason I got in touch with him is that I, well, I already had a feeling that I was going to run into opposite, great deal of opposition that nobody would listen to me unless they had had the previous knowledge and knew at least what I was

00:43:59.629 - 00:44:16.570

saying about the university situation might be true. I had the feeling that being from the scientific side, people might immediately read into it that uh well, I was afraid of having somebody in humanities as president or I was resentful to it. And in fact, I did

00:44:16.580 - 00:44:34.489

encounter that a little bit with Newton racer. That was one of his first reactions to. Are you doing this? Because you feel that uh humanity man would essentially be bad for the sciences. But uh I at least felt in his case and possibly in George Brown's

00:44:34.500 - 00:44:49.669

case, they were aware and my pitzer let me know that they were aware of the situation on the campus. So I felt that they would, at least if they took it at all seriously, they would be able to help me and their support in contacting one

00:44:49.679 - 00:45:06.429

of the current trustees would at least lend the support that lend at least the essence of truth to what I had to say. That that was the idea that I sort of was going around in my mind at the time, they both had been on active

00:45:06.449 - 00:45:24.370

members of the board at the time that Pitzer was chosen at the time that Pitzer was chosen. And also while Masterson was Dean. That's right. Yes. Well, at the um meeting on Thursday, when Alan and Tea spoke, was there uh did anyone else uh anyone else's

00:45:24.379 - 00:45:45.320

comments stand out in your mind as being especially uh impressive or vocal or? Well, uh I think uh Bratton had mentioned that he had already spoken to Alan and expressed his thoughts. Uh Let's see, I spoke for a while and expressed first my disappointment because it's

00:45:45.330 - 00:46:06.070

true. That wasn't the type of man that I had a picture of him as being president and tried to emphasize the difficulties, the hidden difficulties. Uh I think Remlinger spoke too against the uh appointment and sort of confirm my ideas about or my statements I should

00:46:06.080 - 00:46:25.820

say about the difficulty he would encounter the most impressive uh performance I think was the student performance, particularly the girl. What's her name? You can remind Barry Kaplan, Mary Kaplan Momentary. And I think she was the only one the trustees really listened to simply because they

00:46:25.830 - 00:46:42.570

were impressed that a student could be so elegant and uh so mature and self-confident, I should say in an expression, I think they remember the days when they were a student and even when I was a student where I would have been tongue tied in talking

00:46:42.580 - 00:47:00.790

to anybody like the trustees or even a dean or even the president. But the students aren't that way nowadays, they're not impressed by a person that much by a person standing and they're willing to speak. But anyway, she spoke uh very much in the student feeling

00:47:00.800 - 00:47:17.179

against this type of appointment, not personally against the man, but uh from what she had known him about him. And of course, he, his name was used in another manner. I suggest that we used his name as a to epitomize some type of what we considered

00:47:17.189 - 00:47:37.219

ridiculous or extreme type of uh choice. Obviously, his name was known among the students as the symbol of disciplinarian is seeing the old fashioned professor who was aloof and bear bore down very strongly on the students and having this picture. You can imagine this was the

00:47:37.229 - 00:47:56.610

opposite to what students felt was desirable as current type of president. So I think she expressed this thought, she did very elegantly. And I think the most and thing that made it stand out was the way the trustees really suddenly listened to her. I think when

00:47:56.620 - 00:48:11.209

I spoke or rimmer spoke, they quickly got the gist of the conversation and then maybe went off into their own thoughts. At least one had that impression that they didn't concentrate on what I was saying. But I think when she spoke, at least they did listen,

00:48:11.219 - 00:48:29.739

I think because being impressed with the performance, sorry, how about, uh Greg? Why did he have much to say at that meeting? Yes. I think he didn't have a lot to say. But I think he confirmed Barry Kaplan's type of impression and had a few statements

00:48:29.750 - 00:48:49.699

to make too. He was much more quiet and uh he didn't have the flair for presentation that she had though, of course, he was very good. And I think uh had a great deal of self-confidence too. In fact, I have the impression that afterwards he made

00:48:49.760 - 00:49:10.340

a number of s personal contacts, particularly with Mr Allen. I had discussions with him. Did you ever hear um either from Mr Allen or from uh from Greg himself? Uh the, the uh outcome of those contacts? No, I, I think Greg himself had mentioned to me

00:49:10.350 - 00:49:26.199

that he had had long, once, had a long, at least one long conversation with Mr Allen. And I gathered from that he may have had several or so. Uh But somehow in all the other things going on at the time, I, he never had an opportunity

00:49:26.209 - 00:49:43.679

to sit down and tell me in detail what they were about. I was wondering if uh Mr Allen had ever spoke. No mis Mr Allen never said anything to me about his conversations with Greg Allen. I'm with Greg White. I'm sorry? Well, let's see. I guess

00:49:43.689 - 00:49:56.530

the next thing that happened then, uh was there anything after the meeting that took place that's especially important or do we go next to the, um, I guess the next meeting that I am aware of would be on Friday. That was the faculty meeting. No, nothing

00:49:56.540 - 00:50:17.280

uh moments that I was involved with at least took place before the faculty meeting. Now, uh I guess it became clear that by next morning, the word had spread through a great deal of the faculty. I still don't know quite how that happened. Uh The truck,

00:50:17.290 - 00:50:31.659

we did have an agreement with the trustees after the Thursday meeting that they wanted to make the announcement, they didn't want it to slip out to the board that they, they would announce it before the faculty. And if I remember, right, we had fixed upon Saturday

00:50:31.669 - 00:50:50.639

morning or sometime on Saturday as a date to call a faculty meeting and they had mention their reservations that if its faculty were informed beforehand, the papers were sure to get it and having realized it was a final decision and everything else, we weren't about to

00:50:50.649 - 00:51:07.820

try to cause any more difficulties and we agreed that we would keep it confidential. But it was clear Friday morning, that great deal of the word had spread and I was continually getting calls and asking if it was true that a uh the new president had

00:51:07.830 - 00:51:23.919

been chosen. And I think my standard answer was to come to the faculty meeting that was gonna be called at such and such a time on Friday. And in fact, I remember even leaving a message for no, who was a King Walters, I think who was

00:51:23.929 - 00:51:38.550

out of town, that this was one faculty meeting he'd want to attend. What was your attitude at between these two events? Uh, were you pretty well resigned to becoming president and keeping things as calm as possible or were you, uh, did you have other ideas in

00:51:38.560 - 00:52:01.020

mind? I can't quite recall. It wasn't quite completely calm, you know, and, and resigned to having completely as president die. But at the same time, I didn't have in mind much more that we, that we could do. I thought the trustees had made it very clear

00:52:01.379 - 00:52:16.070

that they weren't going to back down, at least that they weren't going to do any reconsideration. And I think I look forward what I knew was going to be a very turbulent period on campus. And I think I was just so sad. I think that's the

00:52:16.080 - 00:52:32.469

best word to express that morning. I was just sort of sad thinking about the future of the university and wondering what was going to happen and what was going to become of, of things beyond that. I hadn't really made any specific plans. I don't think it

00:52:32.479 - 00:52:54.429

was until after the faculty meeting that afternoon that the ID even became clear to me that a concerted uh effort or of opposition could perhaps accomplish something. What was it that happened in the faculty meeting that uh that, that brought you to this possibility? Well, I

00:52:54.439 - 00:53:18.520

think it was uh the, the uh demonstration particularly what seemed to be the really unani well, not unanimous but the very strong demonstration on faculty's part that they weren't really willing to accept this even under what I considered an enormous pressure type situation. In other words,

00:53:18.530 - 00:53:35.790

I felt that the faculty and open exposure to the administration members there and to a couple of members of the board trustees. And in a situation where Doctor Crow, I had asked signers of the petition, its names to be read and so forth. Uh I, I

00:53:35.800 - 00:53:55.110

consider that quite a uh a situation of pressure you see, to accept the thing. And I realized at that time that the, that the faculty, very large part of the faculty felt strong enough to expose themselves and put them into themselves into what really is an

00:53:55.120 - 00:54:14.989

untenable situation. I mean, one, if one takes open opposition and even threatens to resign under a certain situation, you haven't got much choice left to you if, if the thing goes through. Um And so a lot of them particularly, I was impressed, I think by the

00:54:15.000 - 00:54:30.320

younger faculty willing to put their necks, you might say on the block or so, they felt so strongly in their opposition. And at that time, I realized that it was a very serious situation to with Bill Masterson that in the end he was gonna be faced

00:54:30.330 - 00:54:54.929

with the situation of either resigning or really facing a badly broken up. And uh I should say mu mutilated university face with those alternatives based on your knowledge of the master. And what would you expect him to do? I, I was really, I really didn't know

00:54:54.939 - 00:55:14.239

at the time, uh I don't think I knew him that well. I think I realized at the time that this was in many ways an ambition of his, that this is something he would desire very, very much and it was going to take, he wasn't going

00:55:14.250 - 00:55:32.030

to resign just casually, he wasn't going to resign simply because it created a turmoil or because some of the faculty were unhappy. But I guess in, I guess I perhaps I'm reading more in hindsight and foresight. But at the time with, particularly when I saw the

00:55:32.040 - 00:55:48.760

faculty opposition, I really felt at that time once that he was really aware of the true extent of the situation, he would have no choice that he still was not the type of man who would uh come and, and, and if he really, if he really

00:55:48.770 - 00:56:10.520

was convinced of what was bound to happen on the campus afterwards, that he himself would realize that he didn't have any choice but not to come though. I must admit in the succeeding days afterwards, I never felt confident about that when you said that uh some

00:56:10.530 - 00:56:29.590

of the members threatened to resign. Uh um I think I'm mixing up e events, maybe I can see what you mean. They didn't do it at the faculty meeting at the time. Uh I was describing my course of, of uh coming to the conclusion that perhaps

00:56:29.600 - 00:56:45.260

something would turn out other than him coming as president. And you mentioned during the meeting, I was saying, as I should have said, partly during the meeting that occurred to me, but really, it, it wasn't, it doesn't, I didn't suddenly realize at the meeting or afterwards

00:56:45.270 - 00:56:59.540

that this was a possibility, I think it was the meeting and the events that afternoon and that evening in which a lot of the younger faculty were extremely outspoken, particularly to the students and student groups they were meeting with that. I and that I re I

00:56:59.550 - 00:57:15.010

guess it was through that Friday night, particularly with all the calls that I got that I realized to the extent of the feeling against him, as I mentioned earlier that I was never aware of many of the members of the faculty I wouldn't have imagined would

00:57:15.020 - 00:57:34.409

have any feeling other than perhaps disappointment over the choice, having such extremely strong feelings. And I was impressed with part of the faculty performance and standing up at the faculty meeting. But even more so with all the conversations I had, with people with the discussions that

00:57:34.419 - 00:57:50.780

I heard give to students throughout the rest of the afternoon, in the evening that I became for the first time, fully aware to the extent of the personal feeling, to the extent of the opposition. And I think began to realize at that time, what the, what

00:57:50.790 - 00:58:21.239

the possible choices were it? Um I'm not sure how to phrase it but at, at the, do you feel that there were many opinions changed during the course of the faculty meeting or do you think that, um, well, there weren't, there weren't, there weren't many opinions

00:58:21.250 - 00:58:41.760

changed during the course of the faculty meeting as far as concrete opinions are concerned. I think it was the degree of the feeling that hung in balance ever whether people had to make the decision to sort of accept reluctantly what was presented to them as an

00:58:41.770 - 00:59:06.750

irretrievable, a situation or irretrievable fact, or whether to go on record, openly opposing the choice and trying to force some type of reconsideration. And, uh, there were many people, I think that, uh, could quite make up their minds, whether we should try and work with the

00:59:06.760 - 00:59:25.679

situation. I think there were a lot of people that even felt strongly about the poorness of the, of the choice who felt that, uh, it wouldn't last for very long that no president could operate under those situation, that situation, the best thing to do was not

00:59:25.689 - 00:59:44.790

to try to destroy different aspects of the university, but to try to keep something together and look further into the future, four or five years into the future when we were bound to have a new choice of president, uh that wasn't some type of thought that

00:59:44.909 - 01:00:05.489

I heard going around and uh I would say that people are trying to consider themselves pragmatists. You see, to accept what, what's the situation right now, but perhaps work for a better correction. There are others that felt that, uh, while they didn't expect the best, perhaps

01:00:05.500 - 01:00:22.879

the man should be given the chance, see what would happen rather than to cause a turmoil which was bound to be destructive. And I guess, I think there were other reasons why some people stood on the fence. Not so much. I don't think in terms of

01:00:23.760 - 01:00:44.310

supporting the man as their choice of president, but wondering how far to go in voicing their opposition. And it was the fact that during the meeting, so many people have stood in the balance, made the choice at that time to go the opposition route. That was

01:00:44.320 - 01:01:04.280

impressive to me. One thing I've wondered about and I'd be interested in your, in your, uh uh appraisal of this possibility. Did you, uh, noticed that there was, uh, any of, uh, any strong feeling of support for those who say had signed the petition because they

01:01:04.290 - 01:01:21.949

had exposed themselves to danger and uh while uh others may not have strong feelings about it one way or the other, if their colleague felt strongly enough to expose himself, then for his sake, they must support that position in order to, there might have been a

01:01:21.959 - 01:01:45.120

little bit of that. I think, I think the way Dr Crow nice ran the meeting uh created or emphasized to more of extent the side situation, the opposing sides. In other words, he made it more difficult, I think for people on the uh fence to go

01:01:45.129 - 01:02:01.489

along with some sort of accommodation, he, he helped draw the lines much sharper. And, uh, and when they're drawn that way, when you're forced to make a decision, quite often, you'll jump from one place to the other where you wouldn't. Otherwise I think him asking to

01:02:01.500 - 01:02:24.399

have the names of the people read did that in two ways. It maybe had a little bit of this comradeship uh aspect to it. But the second thing it did is the names he had read off in many ways, reflected senior responsible, really uh highly rated

01:02:24.409 - 01:02:41.590

members of the faculty. I think everybody was impressed with the fact that it did the names that he read off weren't the names of the young hotheads or something like that. They were names of department heads, the senior people, the people with national reputations in their

01:02:41.600 - 01:03:03.959

field and that in itself gave other people confidence. They realized that they weren't in some fringe group but they were really, uh, joining or belonging to what was really the strength of the faculty. Well, let's see. Was there anything else of note, uh, Friday evening or

01:03:03.969 - 01:03:21.459

Saturday morning? Uh, the, I think 10 o'clock was the, uh, meeting at the gym and then the A T and then the press conference not, uh, let's see. I, uh, so many, a lot of things, of course happened, there was the meeting at the gym which

01:03:21.469 - 01:03:36.810

I went to in the March and the other things and I was impressed with certain parts of the performance. Um but perhaps I shouldn't say a few words about some things that happened to me privately at the time. Uh I think the person who had a

01:03:36.820 - 01:03:58.580

great deal of influence on me was Doctor Alex Desler at that time. And I began having conversations with him. And uh as a matter of fact, uh was with him that I first discussed to what extent con concrete opposition or extended opposition on the faculty might

01:03:58.590 - 01:04:16.489

have an influence on Bill Masterson. And his, he went to the extent, I, I don't know what happened in the conversation of phoning Bill Masterson right before the faculty meeting. It was, this was still on Friday and came back with the report that in his opinion,

01:04:16.500 - 01:04:36.790

Masterson was determined to accept the presidency that he uh seem to be aware that there was some opposition on the campus but didn't consider it that seriously. And in fact, it was with Alec Deer who tried to persuade me that, uh, that, uh, some type of

01:04:36.800 - 01:04:58.459

aggressive or militant opposition was, would just be destructive in the end. And I, I think the Friday evening or so my thoughts went around this too. I tried to analyze what I myself felt and I felt it was important at the time for Masterson to be

01:04:58.540 - 01:05:13.459

completely aware of the situation. I just felt that I didn't know whether he could possibly understand the type of opposition that he had on the campus. And I felt that it was important for him to speak to some of the faculty members, particularly those in more

01:05:13.469 - 01:05:28.110

responsible positions. Did you have in mind for him to speak to the faculty members? So he would sign a petition or uh do you have any? Well, I had various things in mind. I, I just felt that uh he should perhaps get together with faculty people

01:05:28.120 - 01:05:46.540

who were department heads who had responsible positions around the campus to see how they read the situation that perhaps he should get together with the committee on the presidential selection thing like that, that in any case, if he wanted, if he was insistent on taking the

01:05:46.550 - 01:06:04.620

presidency, there were things he could do to either aggravate the situation or there were things he could do to give himself half a chance of bleeding on the campus of making the campus situation tenable. And that wasn't either fair to him or fair to the university

01:06:04.629 - 01:06:20.870

to have him come in blindly and perhaps make too many mistakes or create or do the wrong sort of things that would uh I should say really be more destructive in nature. And I was thinking, I think of the, the influence, as I said, that Alec

01:06:20.879 - 01:06:36.510

Dessler had of cautioning me about things that would be destructive, but want to have any concrete uh result or purpose. So I was saying I made up my mind by Friday night or Saturday morning to try and contact Masterson and to get a hold of him

01:06:37.489 - 01:06:57.239

and try to get him at least to get some feeling of the situation and speak to faculty before he began making any public appearances. And I tried to do this by getting in contact with Lee Estes who was in the development office at that time. And

01:06:57.250 - 01:07:12.500

I told him uh particularly over the phone that I felt it would be useful, at least if I could speak to him a few minutes beforehand. Uh He came in quite late, however Saturday morning and I never did get a chance and I don't know whether

01:07:12.510 - 01:07:25.659

the message that I had left that I wanted to speak to him actually got to him or not. At that particular time, I joined the group that had come down to the faculty club in the March and he was already in having a press conference and

01:07:25.669 - 01:07:39.100

I heard a few rumors about it from people who popped in and out of the faculty club. And my wife was there with me at the time. And when they, he came out of the faculty club after the press conference and went over to uh address

01:07:39.110 - 01:07:55.120

the students. We stopped and said hello to him like that. I think it was impressed me. I don't know what impressed him that the people with us or so who were saying hello couldn't quite get themselves to say congratulations or anything. We were just saying, you

01:07:55.129 - 01:08:10.510

know, hello? And how are you? And, uh, because we had known them personally at the time and I'd asked Lee Estes, I think if I forget whether then or a few moments later, whether he'd been able to say that I wanted to speak to him and

01:08:10.520 - 01:08:23.719

he said, no, he hadn't or something effect, but he was sure he'd be Doctor Masterson would be glad to see me and he got up in front of the students and I went on the fringes of the crowd sort of to listen. And I realized from

01:08:23.729 - 01:08:37.929

the attitude that he'd taken that he couldn't in the first few sentences or the first few responses that he made that he couldn't quite possibly realize after all, he's not a dumb man. He couldn't possibly realize what had gone on the campus or what the thoughts

01:08:37.938 - 01:08:51.629

were or anything else? He must have been totally of it. And I sort of ran back to the faculty club. I, for some reason I didn't want to hear any more and I also wanted to tell Lee Estes that the situation was going rapidly deteriorate and

01:08:51.640 - 01:09:09.789

that, uh, that something should be done before a lot more mistakes were made. It was clear to me that the students who were at that time were opposed to the principle of not being consulted, were soon going to be opposed to the man. And soon we're

01:09:09.798 - 01:09:29.520

going to be susceptible to all type of militant suggestions. And that uh Masterson wasn't, obviously wasn't aware of this possibility or else he couldn't have possibly been making the statements that he was making before the students. And uh he obviously felt at the time that it

01:09:29.529 - 01:09:47.600

was just a simple, strong position was all he needed, needed to take. But uh I never did get a chance to really talk to Lee Esther seriously about it because Mr Mrs Masterson was sitting standing there together with Mr Allen and I didn't want to talk

01:09:47.609 - 01:10:03.450

about what I felt the mistakes he was making in front of her. So I just made sort of small talk but asked him if he would get in touch with Bill Masterson, whether I could see him at all. And I wanted to talk to him after

01:10:03.459 - 01:10:18.390

he finished with the students and came back and was going off the Estes did get a chance to speak to him because he came up in the commotion of people leaving for lunch and going away. And afterwards and said, he understood that I would like to

01:10:18.399 - 01:10:34.290

speak to him and he would be glad to do it. And he looked over his schedule and realized he was speaking to the uh students that afternoon. But he estimated that he would have some free time around five o'clock in the afternoon. So we made an

01:10:34.299 - 01:10:50.279

appointment to get together. And at that time, I said I would try to get together other faculty in particular. I felt maybe the people on the committee, the Presidential selection committee would be ones that you'd wanna speak to, to find out what the situation was and

01:10:50.290 - 01:11:15.899

discuss really what type of action he might take if he was going to try and enhance his position on campus or try to avoid the all out opposition, that was very rapidly building up the uh other members of the uh Presidential selection Committee, some of the

01:11:15.910 - 01:11:30.879

others I contacted, I wasn't able to contact, all of them were reluctant to go in to speak to him. They felt that if we appeared, it would be as a group and it wasn't clear what official position the committee had. But there was some fear that

01:11:30.890 - 01:11:46.629

uh this might be used as a, in some propaganda sense as a, as meaning support or we might be talked into taking, taking some action, which we didn't mean to take as a group and having been elected by the faculty. This wasn't quite the thing to

01:11:46.640 - 01:12:03.649

do. I didn't see all that I could sort of recognize a little bit of the fears and I gathered also from this, that more and more people were beginning to feel that a concerted opposition would have concrete results. In other words, that the pre the man

01:12:03.660 - 01:12:20.620

could be ousted as president. And I think a lot of people were beginning to gain opposition about confidence in this. I mean, it was clear that there was a united CC campus and somehow in the end, somebody, the trustees or Masterson would be faced with the

01:12:20.629 - 01:12:42.490

choice of either reconsidering, say Masterson resigning or the or the trustees reconsidering their situation and finding some way out for him or facing a campus that was just completely non-existent in the sense of students and professors and work. They saw, I think a lot of people

01:12:42.500 - 01:13:01.020

on the campus were beginning to view it that they had the power to make to present this alternative. And in their own minds, naturally, the only logical alternative was to get Masterson to resign or to disappear in some sense. And so I think uh some of

01:13:01.029 - 01:13:19.299

the feeling was that this was a definite possibility and uh one had to, to do this, one had to exploit the issues to the greatest extent and that we shouldn't compromise the issue by having some meeting with the presidential selection committee. As a matter of fact,

01:13:19.310 - 01:13:36.259

the committee was very conservative. And if Masterson had wanted to make an appeal or even placed himself before the committee, he had a very strong chance of uh, of winning. He would have had after all, I think he would have easily had half the faculty or

01:13:36.270 - 01:13:58.509

33 of the faculty members on it. He could have easily have said, well, there wasn't any enormous opposition to him. He had a substantial part of the committee on his side. If the committee had taken a vote, um say, um, um oh, Saturday afternoon, how would

01:13:58.520 - 01:14:16.129

you have voted at that time? I probably would have voted as opposition to the president. It uh a lot depends upon how the vote is, what, what you're voting on. And if the vote had simply been, do you approve the choice president? There's no doubt in

01:14:16.140 - 01:14:38.370

my mind, I would have said no. Um If the vote had somehow been cast in a much more different tone, I don't know if Masterson had come before the committee, say and said he wanted to put, he wasn't willing to serve, say in the campus that

01:14:38.379 - 01:14:55.410

was divided. But he really, what he did was ask for a chance to show his leadership something to that extent. And uh he wanted to go completely along along with the committee. If they felt that uh he had of course, had no qualifications to be given

01:14:55.419 - 01:15:09.560

a chance to show a certain sense of leadership. He would be agreeable to that. I'm not saying it in exactly the same in the right way because I guess I'm not thinking of this, I haven't thought of this before, but uh in other words, if he

01:15:09.569 - 01:15:25.520

really just sort of put it on, well, I feel that I can lead the university. These are some of my ideas, I think with the Cooper operation of the faculty, we can do something. I wanna create an opportunity to show and demonstrate that this is so

01:15:26.850 - 01:15:42.669

then I might have been torn if he had really been able to present it in the right way. And uh this might have made a difference with the uh support of that caudel and uh Depaz and I think Chapman obviously would have given him as being

01:15:42.680 - 01:15:57.209

the choice of the trustees. Do you think these, these three would definitely voted in in the favor of the? That was my impression from, from all the meetings that we had brought Ringer would vote against. And so you were sort of the swing votes really in

01:15:57.220 - 01:16:17.859

many ways. Yes. But I think even in a straightforward vote where I would have been opposed, it would have been sort of a split vote. So I felt at that time that uh Masterson had everything to gain and really nothing to lose, to consult with this

01:16:17.870 - 01:16:37.459

committee. And I try to present a very co-operative and uh sympathetic view. I mean, uh take sort of the view of the university and, and try and present such a picture. And I think that some other people on the committee were, were afraid actually of this

01:16:37.479 - 01:16:55.729

perhaps occurring undermining the the, the the issue which, which was the core or the, I don't want to use the word facade because it wasn't, it was more than a facade, but it was the public image of the opposition and really the issue on which, which

01:16:55.740 - 01:17:10.060

compelled most students to go along with the opposition. Did you have a chance to talk with Mason in uh around five o'clock? Yes, I did. I couldn't get, well, I couldn't get other members of the committee to go up with me. Later on in the afternoon,

01:17:10.069 - 01:17:28.740

I was in conversation with Alex Dessler again, I mentioned it had influence really on making me examine in detail, what might be destructive to the university in the way of um specific actions and what might not be. And he and I went up and waited for

01:17:28.750 - 01:17:49.459

Masterson in the development office and I think he showed up about 530 or six o'clock from one of the student meetings and we did have a conversation with him at that time. They'll, they'll get that outside. What uh what impressed you about this meeting with the

01:17:49.470 - 01:18:11.899

Masterson? Is there anything that stands out in your mind at that time. Well, there were a lot of things and uh, well, let me say, first of all, there were some, some more personal things or personal impressions, specific things he said in action he took, which

01:18:11.910 - 01:18:30.330

even at this time, I'm some somewhat reluctant to talk about. So I have to really think about that. They were, they were more on a my personal reaction to some of the specific policy statements or things that he felt about the about the university. My impression,

01:18:30.339 - 01:18:50.819

general impression at that time was that he was certainly planning on, uh just shall I say, staying and lasting out the storm that he felt that he knew that there was some personal opposition on partisan faculty. He felt it had been blown up, he felt it

01:18:50.830 - 01:19:16.339

obviously been exploited. And I think this, this was correct. Uh He was already thinking about plans for the university, going ahead with thoughts that he had, he explored some ideas with Alex Dessler, not myself, just threw them out on things he could do as far as

01:19:16.350 - 01:19:40.270

the present situation was concerned. Things he thought about that would at least eliminate a lot of the opposition. I think at that time, he was beginning to understand and and wisely actually uh to analyze the situation as it existed. And he knew he couldn't do anything

01:19:40.279 - 01:20:04.649

about personal opposition, people who oppose him for various personal reasons, but that he thought that perhaps he could do some things that would at least dispel all this business about the issue about the procedure that had taken place. And uh and all the opposition, that part

01:20:04.660 - 01:20:19.549

of the opposition that was in the disappointment of his choice as, as the type of man and a lot of the opposition that came about due to the type of action that the trustees took. And he claimed too that he had no idea that the faculty

01:20:19.560 - 01:20:35.640

committee or the faculty groups had not been consulted. He felt that uh he had asked Mr Lovett. So he said, if everybody was in agreement and he wanted to make sure that that was true. And Mr Lovett had phoned him back a few days saying everybody

01:20:35.649 - 01:20:52.359

was in agreement. Uh he had meant by everybody, the university community, the faculty and so forth. And it was obvious afterwards that Mr Lovett meant by everybody, the people on the board of trustees as far as everybody was concerned. Do you have any impression that Mr

01:20:52.370 - 01:21:10.029

Lovett ever consulted or talked informally with anybody on the faculty about the selection prior to the commitment of the giving of the contract? I have never heard of any instance. If he did, it must have been very informally and very discreetly. But with somebody that I'm

01:21:10.040 - 01:21:31.479

completely unaware of during this conversation, did um did uh Masterson have any ideas uh that in your opinion would have served to uh to defuse the whole situation and, and do away with uh the authoritarian or disciplinarian image that he had. Did you ever suggest, for

01:21:31.490 - 01:21:50.580

instance, that uh maybe uh uh there should be faculty student representation on the board of trustees or perhaps on the Board of Governors? We specifically discussed that one idea. The uh that idea was suggested earlier by Ronald Sasse. I heard Rock Sass mention it to me.

01:21:51.569 - 01:22:12.500

Uh I think Doctor Sass felt at the time that uh and I think he misread the situation too. He felt at the time that one could uh that the trustees were not in a very powerful position, they had through actions which were entirely unnecessary, created a

01:22:12.509 - 01:22:31.640

very difficult situation on the campus. And that one in order to resolve the situation could get concessions from them. And that one of the concessions which would have a logical basis would be some type of elected faculty or student representative on the board of trustees. The

01:22:31.649 - 01:22:51.600

uh object of such a position would be to facilitate communication and avoid things like this ever happening again. And I think Masterson approved of it and presented this to Mr Allen. At least this is what he stated in the way of thing, uh way of conversation

01:22:51.609 - 01:23:08.759

with us and was turned down completely uh contrary to what to say, Doctor Sass's feeling that this was the right time to negotiate people on the board and particularly Mr Allen felt extremely strongly the opposite that this was not the time to negotiate. I think he

01:23:08.770 - 01:23:26.959

indicated to Doctor Masterson that they might discuss this later on. But right now any concession, no matter how small would be a sign of weakness and which they could not tolerate. And I think their position was that under no circumstances at the present time, would they

01:23:26.970 - 01:23:43.479

want to make any concession that would be announced publicly? I don't think at that time they would have agreed to build a sidewalk across one corner of the campus. That's one concession if it had been tied into the uh present situation, I mean, it, it became

01:23:43.490 - 01:24:00.240

a question of authority. I, I think to a large extent, what was your reaction to this, uh this development that the board was going to be this intransigent? Well, now you're bringing out things which I thought were personal reactions I should, but I'll, I'll, I'll comment

01:24:00.250 - 01:24:21.330

on them. Actually, Doctor Masterson felt there were other things. Uh He formulated an idea where he actually wanted to go before the student faculty committee and essentially present his case and let them make some type of decision too. It wasn't quite clear on whether he wanted

01:24:21.339 - 01:24:37.240

to uh commit himself entirely to that decision, but it was clear that he wanted to go to the extent where it would be impossible for him to continue if he didn't get a reasonable amount of support or a vote of confidence from the committee. But he

01:24:37.250 - 01:24:54.729

was willing to do that. And he also said he had discussed that idea again with the trustees and they had said no again, because any type of com compromise, any type of questioning or reconsideration, I think was the word that we use. Any type of reconsideration

01:24:55.049 - 01:25:13.660

they felt was out of the question at that time. Uh I, I don't know whether I had any immediate reaction to the board because of this. I immediately recognized it and it wasn't something that I would have me had a automatically attributed to them beforehand. But

01:25:13.669 - 01:25:27.029

I could see the position and I could see what type of group of men they were. And I thought perhaps this was the way one dealt with more in business and perhaps, and they felt in the end, it was important to establish and maintain their position

01:25:27.040 - 01:25:47.410

of authority and over the university. But I think it convinced me that at the time that it would be difficult for Doctor Masterson to represent the faculty via vis the board of trustees. There are times when we on the campus view the role of the president

01:25:47.629 - 01:26:05.120

as one of taking a f campus consensus for some particular thing and representing the faculty and representing the campus to the board of trustees and fighting for this principle if necessary. And I think I agreed with Doctor Sasse that if anybody was in a strong position,

01:26:05.129 - 01:26:22.939

it was Masterson. He was put in an almost untenable situation by the board of trustees, if he had been a strong man in many ways and had many ideas, and I think he really recognized a lot of things that he could do at the time. If

01:26:22.950 - 01:26:37.930

he'd been a strong man, that way, he could have simply put it on the line. I think he could have been in control of the situation. At least I feel that way because if anybody was the wrong party, he was. That's not true. Well, you anticipated

01:26:37.939 - 01:26:54.740

my next question because it was, it was, why would he have to, I mean, why couldn't he make this announcement unilaterally that he favored such a thing without consulting with the board first? Well, I think, uh, this and this is my private sort of feeling, this

01:26:54.750 - 01:27:18.560

was the most disappointing thing that occurred as far as I was concerned with that, uh, uh, with the interview with him there. I realized at that time that he would not ever in a position as president oppose anything which the board felt strongly about. Nor would

01:27:18.569 - 01:27:39.220

he ever probably support or be able to present with full strength, something, some strong opinion on the campus that had to be done at the university. And I think in many ways, uh, Doctor Desper, who was with me realized this too, he had the same impression,

01:27:39.339 - 01:27:55.060

I think he had the same impression, uh, in this conversation. It never once came up that, uh, that he could do this unilaterally and that, uh, that just the fact that he, that making an announcement that he favored such a thing would, uh remove a stigma.

01:27:55.109 - 01:28:10.250

Yeah, I never went so far as to suggest he do it unilaterally. I must admit we were very honest with him. Both of us gave him our strong opinion that when one with one of these things, he could in effect remove practically everything, but the personal

01:28:10.259 - 01:28:34.950

opposition that much of the case, much of the cohesiveness of the opposition to his appointment would disappear. That uh in our opinion, it was true that uh while he wouldn't be without difficulties, he probably could weather storm successfully if he took the command of this sort.

01:28:36.180 - 01:28:49.990

Was this the suggestion that he appeared before the committee and essentially be abide by their decision. Uh Yeah, that was for both of them, for both the fact that if he uh if he had simply made the statement that he recognized the difficulty, he was sympathetic

01:28:50.000 - 01:29:04.879

with it and he felt it was a matter of communication between the trustees and the faculty. And as such, he had suggested and got an agreement for a student, faculty representative or trustees. It could have even been a non voting member or somebody who was entitled

01:29:04.890 - 01:29:29.149

to sit on their meetings. He felt this would in the future such uh difficulties. Uh And uh if he had also said that he, he recognized the opposition that was to his appointment and that uh way it had been carried out. And that's something to the

01:29:29.160 - 01:29:42.979

effect that he didn't really want to do it unless he had the support that he had, he want the best for the university. And he was only asking for a chance really to show that we could work together. And he was willing to go and discuss

01:29:42.990 - 01:29:59.899

it before the student faculty committee and present his case. And if he could not obtain their vote of confidence or their confidence in the fact that he was able to lead the university, then he, then he would seriously consider resigning. I don't know, or, or he

01:29:59.910 - 01:30:20.439

would take, or he would take his appointment under advisement. He really didn't have to say he would, he would, he would resign. Uh He was talking about something about uh taking this into consideration under or under advisement. What it meant effectively was uh when I've forgotten

01:30:20.450 - 01:30:37.810

now, the precise statements, I think he made some statements which I think would have sounded much better or been uh much more to the point than what I've tried to remember in effect. He, I think he would, was willing to put himself in the position that

01:30:37.819 - 01:30:59.660

if he come uh convince a reasonable part of the committee that he was capable of carrying on this job, then he wouldn't have leave himself with any other choice but to resign. And I think he knew at the time, other information that he could get a

01:30:59.669 - 01:31:16.020

reasonable part of the committee to agree with him practically with very little argument. So, all he had to do was just not one might say, blow the situation. Did, uh, do you know whether he was aware, uh, of whether or not the students would have a

01:31:16.029 - 01:31:32.109

vote on that or was it not? I was even, I think, confused at the point because I think I'd let him, uh, to the feeling that the students should be allowed to express their opinion. I don't think it ever came to a vote, but I uh

01:31:32.189 - 01:31:44.939

told him that a critical thing would be to gain some of the students support at that time. And that if he could do this, I said, if you could gain even partial student support, then I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as

01:31:44.950 - 01:32:00.370

the decision of the committee is concerned. Uh No, I don't know whether he was aware of the fact that in some technical sense, the students did not have a vote and, uh in many ways, I'm surprised he just didn't find out these things if I, I

01:32:00.379 - 01:32:17.100

don't think he, the more I think about it, I don't think he was manipulating or in any Machiavellian sense, you know, trying to see how the situation actually stacked. I think he was being at least to a large extent honest about, about it. I think he

01:32:17.109 - 01:32:32.129

had a feeling that if he could just talk to the committee at the time under the circumstances, he could persuade them that the reasonable thing to do was to give him a chance and try and work together for the university's sake. If he had made a

01:32:32.140 - 01:32:48.080

strong personal appeal, that would have been difficult to, if he had presented in the, in the right light, if he had not taken an authoritarian point of view that he was president and was gonna make the decisions if he had completely expressed it in. Now, let's

01:32:48.089 - 01:33:08.000

try to make something out of the situation by working together that uh he was going to be more than co-operative in this nature that he recognized the role of the faculty and sort of presented himself as simply a leader or so or, or slightly an equal

01:33:08.009 - 01:33:29.240

among equals or so, I think uh it would have been very hard you see to, yeah, taken a completely negative point of view or vote. And I think he realized this, but uh for some reason or another, he just didn't have the uh personal command of

01:33:29.250 - 01:33:46.620

the situation that enabled him to carry through any of these ideas. He explored other minor variants of these various things, just sort of an open thoughts as, as we were up there that, that evening, what did you understand to be uh his or maybe you didn't

01:33:46.629 - 01:34:06.259

discuss this uh his uh goal in going back to the meeting with the students. Uh after the dinner break, I never under, yes, I never understood that. No, I didn't express anything to him afterwards. I realized it was sort of a mistake. One thing that was

01:34:06.270 - 01:34:24.740

a mistake at that time was to have come down and spent the whole weekend and never made the slightest attempt to calculate, to contact the real centers of power on the campus. Namely department chairman, senior people and things of that sort. I don't know directly. But

01:34:24.750 - 01:34:39.350

I have a feeling that a lot of these people who had great investments to protect, who wouldn't have really taken any destructive action. It wasn't a matter of just having a position and they moved to another campus but they have great investments and the things that

01:34:39.359 - 01:34:59.899

they've built up, not only from a personal point of view, but they've invested many years and many efforts in Rice University. I felt slighted in some way. I mean, there are people I think who felt that, uh, that they represent certain, uh, aspects of the university,

01:34:59.910 - 01:35:19.770

that they are the proper people to consult and the president comes down and spends the whole weekend simply with students and doesn't even make any attempt whatsoever. Say to call the department chairman. Together situation is I, I, I think that was a mistake and I don't

01:35:19.779 - 01:35:35.700

know whether he planned on it was, I think he was caught up in the events and, and just couldn't become master of it in many ways that's always so disappointing for somebody you expect to be president of it. Uh I think a lot of my personal

01:35:35.709 - 01:35:53.080

opposition would have disappeared if I had seen him just take command of the situation, control it to some extent, rather than just simply be swept along by the force of circumstances. And I gather with the students, he must have felt that uh he's, that he couldn't

01:35:53.089 - 01:36:08.459

have had the personal opposition of the students that uh it would, would be much of a matter simply to PURs to dispel any objections they had in some sense or the other. How did he really feel about liquor on campus and that sort of thing? You

01:36:08.470 - 01:36:24.379

know, and I think he regarded it, must have regarded it as in simple terms of that sort that this was not an insurmountable problem. And once he dispelled that then he could tackle the, the other type of opposition that occurred on the faculty, which was probably,

01:36:24.390 - 01:36:43.939

she would probably recognize as a much more ticklish problem. Uh I see we're getting to the end of this tape and I, um I want to uh put on another one here. One thing I was wondering about, uh this is a continuation of the interview with

01:36:44.000 - 01:37:12.029

um Doctor Salzburg. Uh this is still tape, this is ta 23 side one. OK. Yeah, I set it down. Zero. OK. Doctor Salberg, we were uh uh just finishing up uh on Saturday's activities talking about uh why Doctor Masterson spent so much time with students. Um

01:37:12.709 - 01:37:29.810

You felt that was, it was a mistake not to try to contact uh the faculty. I think this became clear to me more afterwards than at the time. Well, I one of my pieces of advice was that would be helpful to get in touch with faculty.

01:37:29.819 - 01:37:50.439

I I never suggested such things as the uh department heads or really suggested this strongly in the conversation we had on Saturday. But uh I think uh throughout this, Doctor Masterson took my statements as implying one of support. I think he regarded both a, the fact

01:37:50.450 - 01:38:08.080

that Alec Dessler and I came up to speak to him. And uh in fact, I think that we mostly listened rather than said anything directly as meaning that uh he had or had our support in some sense of the word that uh we weren't among the

01:38:08.089 - 01:38:30.629

militant opposition. We were part of the budget. And, well, I didn't feel that strongly. I kept wavering between point point of view as to whether or not I would uh I think I had, I, I let me express it this way. I think I had sort

01:38:30.640 - 01:38:48.520

of decided that if there seemed any reasonable case for it, I certainly wanted to co-operate and uh let him have the chance. I think I also felt that it was gonna be extremely difficult period. I didn't think how, see how he could really accomplish very much.

01:38:48.529 - 01:39:01.899

And I felt that, uh it wasn't going to last very many years unless he pulled some miracles out of the bag. And if he did pull some miracles out of the bag, then I felt that, uh this would really prove that he was the type of

01:39:01.910 - 01:39:25.000

man who could be president. He went back to the students. And as a matter of fact, uh by strange coincidence, uh, phoned me about 10 o'clock that evening was, uh, it was a strange coincidence that actually hadn't back home. My wife and I actually went to

01:39:25.009 - 01:39:40.450

a party that evening during the party. It may have been from all the commotion and strain. I encountered a tachycardia. I have a situation which is not serious, but every so often I have a tachycardia which occurs and there's a medicine that I take to take

01:39:40.459 - 01:39:54.720

care of it. And this happened at the party, we were back and I ran home or I went home to get the medicine and rest for a few minutes. And about that time, it was Dr Masterson have phoned me and began asking me more about the

01:39:54.729 - 01:40:15.580

opinions of the people on the committee. And it was just sort of implied to me that he was giving this course of action more, more thought. And I tried to tell him frankly what I felt was some of the general thing committee. I, I avoided mentioning

01:40:15.589 - 01:40:32.810

people specifically and I didn't feel it was my place to say anything about who was in opposition or support. But I indicated to him that I felt he already had a reasonable amount of support on the committee. And if he could present a reasonable case, uh

01:40:33.129 - 01:40:50.560

there's no, there was a strong chance I would say that he could gain some type of, of, of, of confidence. Well, that was the extent of our conversation and I gathered that he was going to try to do something in fact, to sort of implied that

01:40:50.569 - 01:41:09.140

he might have even said something to the students of that's around along those lines. It turned out later on, this was obviously during one of the breaks that he had taken from the students the next morning. Oh, let's see, I guess. Did I try to? Oh,

01:41:09.149 - 01:41:28.770

yes, I remember what happened. Uh Alex Destler phoned me and said something about the fact that he was worried. I think that Masterson had read too much into our visit about the way of mutual support. And he was wondering whether uh he had been honest or

01:41:28.779 - 01:41:45.930

we had been honest in applying where we stood personally that we were that in growing up, he had other sort of slightly different ideas in, in mind, he wanted to give some advice, but he didn't necessarily want to imply that that he was just lending all

01:41:45.939 - 01:42:02.910

his support at that particular time because I guess he had serious reservations and I gather he felt some of the reservations that I did from the point of view of the conversation, but he was also uh going off flying, didn't quite know what to do. He's

01:42:02.919 - 01:42:19.500

an amateur flyer and was scheduled to leave that day. And I called up Masterson who was, I believe staying at the Warwick at that time, I wanted to speak to him and to sort of clarify things and make sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding about our

01:42:19.509 - 01:42:35.330

position or what we were really trying to do. At that time. I got a hold of Mr Mrs Masterson, who I had known personally and Bill Masters and himself were still, was still sleeping. I gathered he had a very exhaustive night and that, as a matter

01:42:35.339 - 01:42:52.049

of fact, the doctor had recommended the sedative and he was trying to get some rest. And so of course, I didn't want to disturb him, but Mrs Masterson felt that she wanted to talk and it was clear from her conversation that uh she was worried about

01:42:52.060 - 01:43:07.720

their position on campus and it was something that I had never really thought of before, but she was wondering how she could come and live on a campus to what extent the opposition was there among the faculty that was very hostile. And this was a really

01:43:07.729 - 01:43:24.520

personal consideration which she had taken, was taken into account at the time. In fact, she even expressed some fears of physical danger. I tried to assure her that even the most extreme people that I knew, uh, the furthest thing in my mind is that they would

01:43:24.529 - 01:43:37.069

ever resort to anything like that. I don't, I don't know of a single person on the campus who I think would ever consider that, but it shows to, to what extent she was disturbed, I think by the situation, did she give any indication of, to whom

01:43:37.080 - 01:43:54.080

she had been speaking, that she might have gotten these ideas? No, she didn't. I didn't. I gather they did not come from anybody specifically but just an impression and worry on her part. I think this just sort of exaggerated her worry. Uh, I admitted to her

01:43:54.089 - 01:44:15.020

that there was a lot of intense feeling on the campus and under the present circumstances, I couldn't imagine they're coming in feeling the warm friendship and social contact with the faculty. That, that certainly was true. I tried to emphasize, I didn't feel there was any danger

01:44:15.370 - 01:44:38.490

but she, she was very worried and particularly felt how could she move family onto the campus in an environment that was particularly hostile. Yeah, the conversation didn't come to any particular conclusion, but I think she was trying to get my reading on to what extent this

01:44:38.500 - 01:45:01.759

hostile environment did exist and how far it went. Uh, later this telephone call was about what time Sunday morning? Oh, I would estimate about 10 o'clock maybe between nine, between nine and 10, probably closer to 10. Ok. The, uh, later on Bill Masterson himself phoned up.

01:45:03.120 - 01:45:20.799

Oh, the other point I should go back of Mr Mrs Masterson's conversation was that she seldom dictated but she, she was very much concerned about his health and she was going to insist that not have any more interviews or anything else. Go back to Chattanooga. She

01:45:20.810 - 01:45:36.459

felt he had been, uh, up, had very little rest even in Chattanooga, I forget the situation that had occurred. I think it was just some business or some beatings type situation or even being out of town that had allowed him to have very little rest before

01:45:36.470 - 01:45:51.319

coming to Houston. And of course, he had gotten, been under a terrific strain and gotten very little rest while in Houston and she was concerned as far as his health was concerned and she made it clear that while she seldom interfered or said anything, she was

01:45:51.330 - 01:46:05.109

going to take a strong stand that he quit this right now and go back to Chattanooga and rest. Did you attempt to dissuade her on this? No, I just listened to her as far as that's concerned. I had no feeling for really how tired he was

01:46:05.120 - 01:46:26.209

and so forth. And at that stage, I just tried to lend a sympathetic ear more than anything else. Uh, he himself called up later on to indicate that, uh, he wasn't going to attempt anymore. He was going back to Chattanooga that he was convinced that it

01:46:26.220 - 01:46:45.970

was foolish to try and negotiate or talk to people anymore, either the committee or any of the students. Uh, I think I made the comment at the time that I, well, I felt I could understand it and I understand who's going back and, uh, I felt

01:46:45.979 - 01:47:00.629

that he was probably wrong at that time. I still thought that he had a reasonable chance even at that late date. II, I have this right now. I didn't say to him at that late date. But, uh, even the chance, certainly a chance at that time

01:47:00.640 - 01:47:16.609

and it was a reasonable thing to do to try to contact people like the committee or other groups of people and gain some support. Uh, just personal conversation. I think my comment was to the effect of just talking it over with people can't hurt. And if

01:47:16.620 - 01:47:33.859

we take a co-operative, everybody takes a co-operative and reasonable attitude and I'm sure something probably good would come out of it. But he felt that, uh, people had taken a personal attitude by this time that, uh, was an unreasonable opposition and it was, would just aggravate

01:47:33.870 - 01:47:49.000

the situation for him to stay on that. He was gonna go back to Chattanooga and would think about things there. Did it cross your mind that, uh, that he was rapidly coming to a decision right then that he would have to resign? No, I, uh, didn't

01:47:49.009 - 01:48:03.350

realize it at that time. He may have been, uh, what, how did you read it at the time? Was that, uh, he, he was still determined, I sort of read it at the time that he was still determined. He made some statement, I think about he

01:48:03.359 - 01:48:16.299

would return in September. It was, it was gonna be busy when we come back in September. I sort of read it at the statement that he was just going to get out of the scene and, uh, felt that things would sort of die down by the

01:48:16.310 - 01:48:35.229

time September came around or, or he could come during the summer. That's the opposition. Uh But uh there wasn't any real indication at that time for me to make a concrete decision, looking back on it. Now, do you remember anything that would uh would substantiate, uh

01:48:35.629 - 01:48:55.490

the possibility that maybe he may have uh decided to resign, he had to go back to retrieve whatever he could in Chattanooga if I strained right now, I might put such an interpretation on it. But, uh I could not imagine myself even with my present knowledge,

01:48:55.500 - 01:49:18.839

going back to that situation and reading it into it at that time. No, I did not take it that way. Well, on Sunday afternoon, there was a meeting called by her group of faculty, uh some faculty and uh student leader again, remind me I have a

01:49:18.850 - 01:49:38.810

very poor, you'll see what a poor memory I have for names, for some names. Uh What was the student president's name. Scarron Walter. And, uh, I, I know him very well and I've forgotten the name of my moment but I think you're doing marvelously. It's, uh,

01:49:38.819 - 01:49:52.069

well, the important things are, are, are all there. But anyway, this is sort of an ad hoc group. You've probably heard about it or so. And this is a meeting with Dean Gordon. No, this is a meeting with Gordon. I was not aware of the meeting

01:49:52.080 - 01:50:13.970

with the Masters. Yes, I'd be very interested in your, uh, your, uh, impressions of that meeting. Well, the impressions of that meeting were, was obvious uh, meeting as to what we're going to do next. And there were just all sorts of conversation which I can't recall

01:50:13.979 - 01:50:38.359

right now. Various ideas, various comments, conversation wandered specifically to the point to storytelling of what had been happening in the last couple of days, uh of what we're going to do and it was quickly came around or quickly came around to the point that, uh, somebody

01:50:38.370 - 01:51:00.129

should act as sort of a faculty representative repre sort of represent the faculty in some way to the trustees to drop. I get across the seriousness of the situation. I think the uh central point that people were concerned about was the fact that, uh due to

01:51:00.140 - 01:51:20.500

the publicity announcements and everything else that was still regarded as a fringe group type opposition, it wasn't substantial. Uh, the reports would be of the, of the 2000 student body, 900 some voted against them indicating that the students were split but not reflecting the fact that

01:51:20.509 - 01:51:38.310

on an emergency meeting, a short notice meeting, Saturday morning, over thou about 1000 students showed up to that meeting in the gym and of 1000 students all but seven you see voted to condemn the procedure. Um I'm interested in, in who all attended that meeting. One

01:51:38.319 - 01:51:51.839

of the things that is not quite clear in my mind is why the Executive Council didn't function uh as a as an executive council during this time. Do you recall that Topazio was there or Sims? So Paso or Sims were, were not there. In fact, the

01:51:51.850 - 01:52:13.649

only member of the Executive Council Council was Gordon. Did that seem peculiar to you at the time? Not at the time? No, because the meeting was not intended or did not, was not presented uh at the time, at least of being some official meeting. Uh The

01:52:13.660 - 01:52:32.319

idea that was presented to me when I was invited to the meeting is just that some concerned and interesting faculty, interested faculty wanted to get together and uh discuss the situation. Did, did the invitation come from Gordon or did it come from someone? It came from

01:52:32.330 - 01:52:51.870

someone else? And uh in fact, I think it came in from two people who were helping with the organization and I forget who was there. Uh And it didn't start off with any context of being any official university body. Of course, I can read a lot

01:52:51.879 - 01:53:17.640

into it when I afterwards factor and uh and afterwards I realized of course it was intended to try to do something. This was the group or this was the group who were, who wanted in some serious and yet uh reasonable manner. Bring about the resignation of

01:53:17.649 - 01:53:32.370

Bill Masterson. In other words, this was, this was the core of the opposition that might in some sense succeed in, in, in, in some political movement. Mhm. Let me hear it. You just a second. I'll hear a little squeak in here and I wanna make sure

01:53:32.379 - 01:53:56.180

we're doing this. All right. All right. Uh, but this wasn't really clear to me at the time. Uh, at the time, I really sort of thought of it as a group of faculty, certainly among the most responsible on the campus who were meeting and had some

01:53:56.569 - 01:54:13.000

common set of, they sort of stood at the, at the same point, you know, in, in relatively the same point in opposition and we're simply discussing the situation and what could be done about it was Chapman there that you remember, I don't think he was but

01:54:13.009 - 01:54:34.290

I did, but Room Linker was. And, uh, well, if the members on the, um, I think mcenany, I think M Mike mcenany was there. But I'm uh, no, I'm not, I'm not sure. II I just don't have a strong name. I I can say definitely that

01:54:34.299 - 01:55:00.379

people who uh were obviously known to publicly support the trustees in their choice and would not, would obviously not engage in any procedure that would promote Masterson's uh resignation. Were not. In other words, these people were not there anybody who would not seriously consider any reasonable

01:55:00.390 - 01:55:23.720

effort to persuade Masterson to re to resign at the time. Uh Though it was uh merely seemed to be merely a discussion point there, though there was implications that possibly some action would be taken. Uh The meaningful conversation seemed to center about uh conveying the right

01:55:23.729 - 01:55:48.250

type of information, somehow getting across to the trustees or others, the extent to the opposition to the campus, what were possibly the consequences of it and also somehow in some organized method, maintaining a reasonable atmosphere to allow Masterson a chance to digest what the situation was.

01:55:49.109 - 01:56:08.169

In other words, any type of radical or militant movements or anything that would uh of that sort uh would obviously bring about make it even more difficult for him to make a decision or to make, to, to, to resign. In other words, it would be even

01:56:08.180 - 01:56:24.910

more so under the fire or under the pressure of the, the type of SDS crew or so on. And which would uh well, I think uh I can't find the proper words but nevertheless, create the bad situation. The idea I think of the of a committee

01:56:24.919 - 01:56:46.640

at that particular time. Well, somehow the situation was untenable. How can we keep a calm atmosphere on a high level on the campus? Present the facts to both the trustees and Masterson, make them thoroughly aware of it and convince them of the reality of the situation

01:56:47.299 - 01:57:08.189

and somehow create a condition where logic would uh prevail Bill Gordon made it clear. I think a lot of us recognized at that time that the key lay in Bill Masterson himself, that the trustees would not renege on their commitment come hell or high water that

01:57:08.200 - 01:57:23.109

they would in all likelihood, uh He didn't say this, but I think we all had the impro impression that in all likelihood, they would shut down the university and start it over from scratch rather than go back in any way on their commitment at that time.

01:57:23.870 - 01:57:43.609

There seem to be any indication that they just felt there was nothing they could do and they just wouldn't consider. So the whole key L in Bill Masterson and the discussion uh centered about how one could get this information to a and I think I'll put

01:57:43.620 - 01:58:02.770

in a comment at that time. Bill Gordon just sort of uh stood back, he was just one of the people there and actually, uh not taking any particular lead. And it was afterwards that I realized that in a very quiet manner, how we really sort of

01:58:02.779 - 01:58:21.370

took command and control of the situation and must have made a basic decision at that time to lend what support he could either in his position or representation to this group of faculty who were trying to create the situation where Masterson would resign under the proper

01:58:21.379 - 01:58:37.779

conditions that he must have convinced himself that that was the best situation too. And he must have done it at realizing it was at the expense of a lot of his future career. I think at the university because he couldn't hide the fact that he was,

01:58:38.140 - 01:58:55.160

he, I think decided, let's put it this way to become represented a representative of the faculty in this manner. And this meant uh 99% of the faculty and this meant really opposition to, to the appointment. Do you think it's worked out that way in the, in

01:58:55.169 - 01:59:13.049

the case of uh I guess he has been made a vice president, but you may have hoped for acting president. Yeah, of course, he was the chief executive officer before all this occurred if uh there were no other extenuating circumstances whatsoever, if things had nothing had

01:59:13.060 - 01:59:30.180

happened, but simply that the trustees had decided an executive committee wasn't working. There was just one, it was better to have one man in charge. Uh He was the person who was in that position, so to speak. It took an extra effort of demotional nature to

01:59:30.189 - 01:59:48.649

choose somebody else to be the the leader. So I don't know whether that had anything really to do with it. I think there are a lot of other circumstances but certainly, uh he must in the trustee's mind, have represent somebody who that best did not stand

01:59:48.660 - 02:00:11.350

with them in public support as far as the Masterson situation is concerned. And he actually uh took the responsibility his own office for conducting the uh survey that was done on the campus, on the faculty and the students. And he said he would do it. And

02:00:11.359 - 02:00:29.319

that decision was made at that meeting. The other decisions that were made at the meeting was that were that people who knew, uh Bill Masterson personally and really were personal friends. And there were several there at that particular time should take the effort to get in

02:00:29.330 - 02:00:45.879

touch with him and try to speak to him on a personal level to be sure that he knew really what the situation was that he had all the facts command and to know what his coming implied as far as what was seemed to be bound to

02:00:45.890 - 02:01:04.850

happen on the campus. Would this be people like Street Fulton, Street Fulton? Well, Jim Costano weren't there Street Fulton was and I think the conversation centered around Street Fulton and Bill Cell. And I think they played an important role. And from what I've heard afterwards, I

02:01:04.859 - 02:01:16.459

think even Bill Cll's role, I don't know whether you've interviewed him or not. No, I uh I'm not sure I'll be able to, I, I hope to, he's on a leave of absence from rise for two years. But I understand he is in town. Yeah. Well,

02:01:16.470 - 02:01:33.580

he has this company in here so he should be back. But I think he played a key role on that Monday and Tuesday because while Street Fulton did call up, uh, Bill Masterson and had a conversation to him, they've been personal friends for many years. The

02:01:33.589 - 02:01:48.709

impression I had of reports of the conversation is that he still didn't quite get through. It was Bill Cadell. I think who phoned him several times, both phoned Bill Masterson several times kept him informed of the situation. And at last managed to get through and persuade

02:01:48.720 - 02:02:12.509

him of the real seriousness of nature, make him listen really to the extent in which everything was boiling. In fact, uh thrown a personal comment uh during all of that, I think the man who I gained almost the greatest appreciation of was Caudill. That's right. I'd

02:02:12.520 - 02:02:30.339

never known him beforehand from his manners, mannerisms and so forth. I had always had a picture of him as some as a person almost inept uh in ordinary administrative or so. So he always seems so scattered brain. I should say like that this is just a

02:02:30.350 - 02:02:48.089

picture from afar. And I think how one is impressed immediately from working with him on the committee. I changed my mind of a man who had a great deal of insight. In fact, I think he made even architecture who I've always had a slight suspicion of

02:02:48.100 - 02:03:05.490

just the general study of architecture. He made it a respectable area in my mind. He overcame my prejudice. Let me put it that way with the personal respect to gain because here was a man whose personal choice was Masterson. He had suggested his name and yet

02:03:05.500 - 02:03:22.759

it wasn't the man who looked at the total facts. When they were originally presented in the committee recognized the situation made a good analysis of it who in the final result, while he never wavered in his personal support of Masterson, who he felt personally would be

02:03:22.770 - 02:03:37.830

a good man and had all the characteristics and the type of he wanted to see as president and never nevertheless put aside a lot of these personal interests and was able to see the true situation that is the real danger that existed at the university and

02:03:37.839 - 02:04:00.390

was able to convey it and persuade Masterson that it did exist. Well, it's not very editable. I can see why, why, why it did impress you. Well, going back to that meeting on Sunday, uh these were the two main points, the uh objective compilation of the

02:04:00.399 - 02:04:22.819

information or the three main points, the maintenance of a calm and reasonable attitude on the campus. And Warren Scarin was uh charged with a lot of responsibility in that regard and the personal contact with Masterson. And then we proceeded to sweat out the next and D

02:04:22.830 - 02:04:47.959

A in my, my propensity for forgetting names. The one you just talking about the uh, Gordon is what I wanna say. And Bill Gordon took, I think what was probably technically not really within his power and that is to use his office to ask the chairman

02:04:47.970 - 02:05:04.569

to carry out this survey by rights. I think that should have gone through the executive committee. He probably realized that it would have been tied up in the executive committee. There would have been opposition to doing it because in a sense that was lending support to

02:05:04.580 - 02:05:25.410

the people who knew that all this opposition existed. So I think he sort of took a that was his major step in doing something unilaterally that he could in principle be, be criticized for on procedural grounds. And then he also took the responsibility of conveying these

02:05:25.419 - 02:05:45.799

results together with Warren scar and to the trustees and to in a sense representing the faculty in this regard. And uh I think the other amazing thing which may maybe I think a lot of people have mentioned is that despite all the suspicions of everybody, and

02:05:45.810 - 02:06:05.270

I think most people are convinced that you cannot keep numbers quiet. The actual figures on those surveys never did come out and never were released. In other words, I think everybody concerned took a responsible attitude, they didn't inquire what were the results. It wasn't that qualitatively,

02:06:05.279 - 02:06:25.020

they were in doubt, one knew qualitatively what they were. But that the actual numbers were kept as confidential information. And I gather, they were also sent to Masterson, uh through the trustees or, or independently. And then, as I said, just one, sweat it out the next

02:06:25.029 - 02:06:45.859

couple of days, it was the wording of the referendum. Um, the two propositions of the referendum established at that meeting or did that come out later, initially established that meeting? And, uh there are a number of changes in, uh, it was, it was one of the

02:06:45.870 - 02:07:02.279

points that went back and forth and nobody could decide what it really was. The, the, the wording that was decided, meeting was not the final wording on the ballot that came out. There were some other thoughts that we obviously went into it people. I think a

02:07:02.290 - 02:07:15.120

number of people, I think it was what I my understanding and I was not present in this, there was a meeting of the chairman at which the idea was discussed and uh and the ballot was presented there and then there was some objection to the wording

02:07:15.129 - 02:07:42.490

and the wording was changed. Uh The uh I forget what it centered around now. It uh centered, I think about whether one was, it was some nuance about, about uh either supporting or not supporting the uh the appointment, whether it meant that you didn't support the

02:07:42.500 - 02:08:00.040

man personally or, or that you couldn't support the appointment because of the situation that existed at the time. I think there were a lot of people that had no personal contact with Bill Masterson had no reason for making any per any decision about the man per

02:08:00.049 - 02:08:20.220

se. But nevertheless, could see the situation and realize that he, he couldn't operate on the campus and would appoint, oppose the appointment. But didn't want it to imply that somehow they opposed him as the choice in some abstract sense. I forget the exact, well, the way

02:08:20.229 - 02:08:36.759

that the the ballot actually turned out at the end was under the present circumstances, I cannot support the the board selection or something of that under the circumstances. Uh I think that gave up this nuance you mentioned. That's right. And I think that was the concern

02:08:36.770 - 02:08:56.790

of people they wanted to be able, they wanted, in other words, they wanted to gather into the opposition to expressible opposition, the people who opposed it for that reason because of the circumstances. Did you uh ha happen to attend any of the college meetings that took

02:08:56.799 - 02:09:17.069

place Sunday night? Uh Yes, I did. I attended Will Rice Meeting Sunday night. I also was at Will Rise College for lunch or for the dinner they serve at noon time and spoke to the students there after lunch. Sort of spontaneously, I was asked to speak

02:09:17.080 - 02:09:34.970

and slowly the place filled up. What was the gist of your message? There wasn't any gist if I remember rightly. Uh Well, yes, there was something in the end, but initially, it was just a matter of answering questions and the students were concerned as to why

02:09:34.979 - 02:09:54.830

there was this strong opposition among the faculty. Uh What was, what would be the possible outcome of it? What was with the people who were threatening to resign are so vocal in their opposition uh committing themselves. And this, these were many of their favorite professors, they

02:09:54.850 - 02:10:14.319

were concerned about it. I think in the end, I did develop a little bit of a theme and it was the, the thing that I, so I think I mentioned a little bit earlier that uh the choice Bill Masterson was not my choice as the man.

02:10:14.330 - 02:10:43.370

I'd like to see as president. That was pro that was certainly true. That uh let's see if I can remember the sta status that uh however, he faced a very difficult situation. If he managed to resolve this diff this difficult situation, I probably would change my

02:10:43.379 - 02:11:00.910

mind. I was, they had asked me about whether I was going to resign. I had no intention of really making up my mind or even making any such statements of that sort. As a matter of fact, even though he hadn't been my choice as president, I

02:11:00.919 - 02:11:21.229

felt that it was a almost impossible situation on campus and that I had many potential objections to him that really in view of this situation, that if he could resolve it in some manner and take control of the situation and resolve it, I would have to

02:11:21.240 - 02:11:42.100

change my mind. I would realize that he had many of the characteristics one would want of president simply because uh probably not one man in 1000 could have resolved that situation under the best of circumstances. And I think I did develop that a little bit to

02:11:42.109 - 02:12:02.799

the students that afternoon. I do remember emphasizing that on several occasions. Was there anything special that uh impressed you at the Sunday night meetings? Well, I was impressed particularly then, but all along by the responsible attitude of the students, there are many ways in which protests

02:12:02.810 - 02:12:21.470

of this sort are taken among student bodies quite often it takes on the character of a game, you know, uh some type of contest in which they get caught up in the fun and the excitement and everything else of it. I've seen that happen on campuses

02:12:21.479 - 02:12:38.290

and all types of protests, whether it has to do with the enthusiasm of some football game or some other issue. But I think the thing that impressed me is that there was very little of this among the students and they weren't taking it lightly, they were

02:12:38.299 - 02:12:55.470

taking their responsibility seriously because at least at Will Rice College because they were really caught in a quandary as to how they would vote. And the quandary was, they didn't know the man personally and they just didn't know how they could vote against somebody on what

02:12:55.479 - 02:13:15.310

seemed to be the to the impartial personal issues. I think they felt that they should join the opposition, but they wanted serious reasons as to why, logical reasons why and how they could make that decision without listening to rumors or basing it upon the fact that

02:13:15.319 - 02:13:36.299

uh one of their favorite professors or instructors felt strongly about it. And so I was impressed that they were seeking a concrete evaluation, specific evaluation that they could judge based upon the knowledge that they had and that they could make some type of intelligent expression of

02:13:36.310 - 02:14:01.200

their, of their opinion. And that I think that impressed my wife too, very much who was with me at this time. Well, let's see. Was there anything else happened that uh of note did the um, no, if I remember proceeded sort of as a normal day,

02:14:01.979 - 02:14:19.689

not all the classes were held in the usual sense of the word that ordinary material was covered. I'm sure a lot of discussions went on, but on the surface, everything was kept quiet on the campus. I don't know as a matter of fact, but I have

02:14:19.700 - 02:14:42.509

a feeling that there probably were groups that were anticipating the worst. There may have even been student groups wondering whether they should occupy a building of short. Anything else? I have a, I'm glad that in the end, the official picture or the publicity picture that one

02:14:42.520 - 02:15:03.439

is able to present to alumni and others is one of restraint and great responsibility in which the opposition has done all the records. I think of the opposition show it done in the most civilized or perfect manner. I mean, it's a question of people having very

02:15:03.450 - 02:15:27.500

strong and serious opposition but doing it in the most correct manner, sort of escalation by due process, escalation by due process. I'm afraid that I'm, if I were going to guess that right below the surface were many currents of possible violence or militant action that might

02:15:27.509 - 02:15:48.020

have broken out in another couple of days. And then I, I think it was a very precarious thing that kept this, I won't say illusion because it really existed. But this condition of responsible action prevalent or on top of everything, what was your reaction when you

02:15:48.029 - 02:16:07.479

received news that uh the of the resignation, one of relief? And uh at that time, there was a feeling other people undoubtedly have expressed this to you sort of a feeling of comradeship among the faculty and students. I think to the students at that time, the

02:16:07.490 - 02:16:30.259

faculty could do no wrong. At least the majority of them, the faculty felt a sort of uh closeness, attachment to the student and the student body, which all the attempts at uh better sedation and promotion in the college never achieved a true sense of sort of

02:16:30.270 - 02:16:51.660

belonging. And at that time, people felt internally, something existed on the university, which was truly exceptional. And the hope at that time was that something could be done with it. You know, a great exhilaration for the possibility of perhaps of persuading a man that might be

02:16:51.669 - 02:17:11.019

the future president, that this did exist on the campus. That there was a spirit of Cooper operation, which was probably unique and unusual and one should exploit it. I think that did exist for a few days. And then uh while it didn't, while the condition didn't

02:17:11.030 - 02:17:31.098

die out or anything else that uh it was never exploited, let me put it that way and was never used. And, and since then has dissipated, there's still, there's still some personal contact uh which couldn't have existed without it between students and faculty. And certainly there's

02:17:31.149 - 02:17:51.379

a, a cooper, as I should say. And an understanding I think would still exist rather than sort of a sense of different camps or posing positions that sometimes that exist on on camp campus. But I think there was a lot of this wishful and hopeful thinking

02:17:51.389 - 02:18:09.228

right after the whole affair, which was based upon this feeling. And I think, I think it dominated everything this, this, I think everybody was aware of this unusual closeness between faculty and students. Well, are there any sort of summary thoughts uh you have on this uh

02:18:09.239 - 02:18:28.159

whole episode? Uh Anything you learned from it or anything you think it did to rise or four rise or uh beyond those things you've already mentioned? No, I guess I don't have any summary thoughts on. Uh I realized that it didn't have the effect I thought

02:18:28.168 - 02:18:47.389

it was having at the time. In other words, the structure of rice is much more broadly based and I don't think it's that perturbed as I thought it was being perturbed by the situation there. I can't quite explain. Um every at that time when I was

02:18:47.400 - 02:19:10.839

caught up in it and feeling that the whole situation, you know, sort of revolutionary of nature. But looking back, one sees that it almost appears now as a minor perturbation on the course of events. Um It obviously didn't, at least didn't publicly or openly have as

02:19:10.849 - 02:19:28.019

much effect on the uh trustees as it did. I think on the students faculty at the time. Have you had any contact with any of the members of the board since this? Uh Yes, I must, I must admit before that ever happened. I hardly ever knew

02:19:28.059 - 02:19:45.169

a member of the board. I doubt whether anyone ever on the board had ever known my name or ever run across it. Uh I'm sure some of them do now and since then I've had a fair amount of contact with Mr Teague and a little bit

02:19:45.179 - 02:20:05.160

of contact uh with Mr Allen. What do you uh what impressions do you have about Mr Teague's reaction to this whole thing? Well, he keeps expressing the situation that we have to let bygones be bygones and go on with the university. I don't know what his

02:20:05.169 - 02:20:27.980

personal reactions were. Uh at the time, he felt that uh I think he felt that the faculty was misleading, the students, the students were being exploited by the faculty in their opposition, that the opposition was unreasonable. And it was a challenge to the board's authority. And

02:20:27.990 - 02:20:44.129

in fact, I have suspicion, a lot of them view it at least in some sense as a challenge to their authority at the time and something which must be put to rest really for the good of the university that in certain areas their authority has to

02:20:44.139 - 02:21:09.809

remain pre predominant. But at the same time, if they do feel any personal antagonism, they've never expressed it. Nor have I really seen any real concrete evidence that they've, uh, acted in any personal antagonism. In other words, I think they do have a different view of

02:21:09.820 - 02:21:30.429

the university and what's important and what should be emphasized than a lot of us do. But I think at the same time, I feel that they've had a sense of responsibility in the sense that, uh, they haven't tried to be destructive because of personal feelings that

02:21:30.440 - 02:21:52.849

they may have had in the situation, uh, this difference of views about the university that you're aware of. Is it anything serious or is it, uh, more or less superficial? No, it's, no, it's quite deep. It's, uh, ok. What is, I think it, uh, oh, I

02:21:52.860 - 02:22:20.440

don't know quite how to, how to describe it, I think it's, I think it's a very different point of view of how one serves the community. What the important purposes of the university are, they deemphasize is important, the scholarship and research aspect of it, which of

02:22:20.450 - 02:22:40.839

course, the faculty often hold, holds on a level with the teaching. I think I can maybe express it the following way that if you ask the board, any member of the board to list what a university does uh teaching arts and science and library and research

02:22:40.849 - 02:22:58.919

and so forth. They can list to all those things and they'll recognize that it's parts of the university and does exist and we aren't willing to support it and say that things will be developed. I think if you were really able to pin them down and

02:22:58.929 - 02:23:16.120

find out, what can they confidently say it is justified at the university. In other words, what do they themselves feel? You know, sometimes you feel very confident, you don't have to explain it away. You know, this is justifiable and worth the expense and the effort and

02:23:16.129 - 02:23:31.830

everything that's going into it in the community and other things, you have to sort of rationalize away, you can repeat the arguments, but somehow you don't feel comfortable with them down deep. Well, if you ask them about different aspects of the university, if you're able to

02:23:31.839 - 02:23:46.530

do this, I've never done this. I have a feeling that people like Mr Teague would take the production of engineers for the community as something. Oh, definitely worthwhile. I mean, there wouldn't be any question in his mind and he would have full confidence in stating that

02:23:47.769 - 02:24:03.429

and by the time he got down and he would feel fairly confident even in art activities, you know, fine arts and other things like that. Sort of recognize though, I think he, in his own mind wouldn't feel he could make as strong an argument as he

02:24:03.440 - 02:24:23.610

could for the production of engineers, a bachelor's engineers. And by the time you got down to esoteric research on the faculty or so, um I don't think he could honestly in his own mind, defend it to anybody. In other words, he would uh rationalize it away

02:24:23.620 - 02:24:37.889

by the fact that some of these people out there who know enough to teach the youngsters like to play around that way and if they can get the money, they can do that. But uh but it would be hard for him to truly, to stand up

02:24:37.900 - 02:24:57.160

and argue to somebody or try to convince somebody that that's what the university really should be doing. Or if you took somebody on the faculty and try to get him to argue the point he felt most secure, strongest on, you see, as to what was worthwhile

02:24:57.169 - 02:25:18.080

on the university pretty close top would be type of original scholarship, mental research contributions to knowledge, not just uh just transmitting the past knowledge already. Well, I can't, I haven't expressed myself except in a very roundabout way as to what are some of the differences. But

02:25:18.679 - 02:25:43.730

this is the type of difference that I've detected. Now, I'll mention one last footnote, I wrote to the Masterson's after he resigned. And in many ways, I tried to express some of the things, same things that were said in that telegram that the students and sort

02:25:43.740 - 02:26:01.290

of faculty sent to them, really trying to wish them the best because he had gone through a terrible ordeal. And I had realized what his family had gone through too. And I did get an interesting letter in response and I don't know whether you want to

02:26:01.299 - 02:26:14.959

add it to your list of things at all, but I would love to, but I brought it along with me in case you, you probably wanna keep a copy of it. So uh I'll uh have it copied here and we'll send it back to you. All

02:26:14.969 - 02:26:42.440

right. And uh inner teeth said something about this difference in view of the university. He feels that I think he feels that a lot of the opposition arose because people had in mind this great scholarship type leader, the man who Paula Pitzer, who's pre eminent nationally

02:26:42.450 - 02:27:00.169

or internationally in his field represents scholarship. Uh That's what he had in mind. He doesn't say anything about that because he mentions in the letter, the concept that some faculty still have and he calls it a being a Harvard of the South that is being a

02:27:00.179 - 02:27:18.469

National University independent of the uh local environment, somehow rising above the local environment. And he says this is a dream which could never be. And he really hits a nail on the head in some sense that there are large parts of the faculty, particularly the Pitzer

02:27:18.480 - 02:27:38.809

faculty who came down, who have the ambition of a nationally prominent university here at R and somehow uh breaking away from the parochialism or regionalism in some sense of the word, even in the sense of support, they would like to see some type of national support

02:27:38.820 - 02:28:00.000

uh university. And uh Masterson was able to realize, certainly realize this as he states. So in the letter that this dream exists, he thinks this is uh a wishful thinking one which can never be realized. And if he thinks uh a lot of the opposition from

02:28:00.009 - 02:28:22.820

people who did not know him personally arose because of their feeling about this point, he's probably right, right in the abstract. Uh people like myself, I think, felt a disappointment because we have this ambition of the university to be some type of national and university. And

02:28:22.830 - 02:28:41.530

because of this, we feel the need of somebody who knows this, who has the national or international reputation, who we can expect, feel confidence in as a leader in this regard or toward this, toward this goal. It's obviously not an easy goal because all the other

02:28:41.540 - 02:29:06.400

national universities are also trying to plow ahead in reputation, everything else. So nobody's standing still waiting for us to catch up here and become the leading university. Did uh does, does he mention why he thinks it's a hopeless dream or uh no, uh not that he

02:29:06.410 - 02:29:22.000

said, he said it's only a dream and he, he, he claims that uh Pitzer discovered this but uh many at rice still refuse to do so He doesn't claim why it is at all. In the letter I wrote to him, I should get you a copy

02:29:22.009 - 02:29:42.700

of that, but I couldn't seem to find it. I mentioned that uh I felt that the one of the quandaries he was in making the decision was really his feeling about the best interest of the university. I felt at the time that uh he was aware

02:29:42.709 - 02:30:02.830

of the possible breakdown between support in Houston, the Houston community and support of of rice. There has been an element of the Houston community and fairly wealthy element who has taken pride in Rice as a highly rated or I should say uh with high qualifications, high

02:30:02.839 - 02:30:24.099

standard school and have supported it. And the feeling that there was a feeling that if he resigned or so this would be the ultimate blow that people would feel that particularly among this element of the community. They would feel that somehow Rice has changed its character

02:30:24.110 - 02:30:42.459

of the people who they have confidence in the board of trustees have lost control and a lot of the support would uh diminish in this so I could see a great deal of danger, financial extent by Bill Masterson simply resigning. And in the letter I I

02:30:42.469 - 02:30:57.349

sent to him, I I commented in some to some extent on this and the other aspect of the short comments to me is that uh I was misinformed that he feels, feels that there has been a breakdown in between the relations of Rice and the Houston

02:30:57.360 - 02:31:20.959

community for over 10 years, implying that this has taken place while Pitzer was president, that somehow Pitzer managed to destroy this basic support that Houston had with some segment of the local community and that this was not a danger and that this, this time between whether

02:31:20.969 - 02:31:39.959

or not he resigned. Well, I certainly appreciate uh this interview you've given us Doctor Salzburg. It's uh it's been extremely valuable and um as soon as we get it transcribed, we, we will uh send you a copy of it and you can uh um like whatever

02:31:39.969 - 02:31:49.219

corrections you see fit and uh feel free, free field to edit it. It's quite long. So we'll uh we'll include everything.