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Okay. Today is October 8th, 2023. My name is Sofia Govea and I'm here today with Ms. Yifan Jiang on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. So to get into our questions, can you-can we start with when and where you

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were born? I was born in Tianjin, China, and in 1994. And can you describe your childhood neighborhood or the area you grew up in? It was close to a river within

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the city of Tianjin. And I guess– what kind of neighborhood it is? It's your regular neighborhood. Nothing in particular.

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I was born on the campus of the local university, Nanda. And, yeah, from a family of engineers, essentially-regular, normal

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neighborhood. Were there any, like, kids around that you played with, or were you close with the neighborhood community at all? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a

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really-I guess it's a community of people who work for the Chinese railway system. So the housing was provided for workers that and-worked for the– yeah, the third railway company,

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and it's mainly a lot of older engineers who are participating in building the infrastructure of modern China. And so the kids that I grew up with were usually grandchildren of those people.

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And yeah, I'm really close to a lot of them. We're still friends. A lot of them immigrated to Canada with me. It's a very nice place. That's so cool. Can you–so you mentioned that your parents were

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engineers. Can you expand more on that? Like they're part of the same railway company? Uh, no. They're not. They just happen to also be engineers. So is my uncles.

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Both my grandparents, mathematicians, engineers. Et cetera. Et cetera. Uh, uncle and aunt. All of the above. Yeah. Just everyone. Not in a specific arena.

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Yeah. Building everything, I guess. And did your parents careers have any impact on sort of like what you envisioned for yourself in the future or–and any of the values that they instilled in your childhood growing up?

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Yeah. I come from a very– I guess in the traditional sense... family that really valued education. My grandparents were professors, so I was born on campus,

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so there's a lot of that going on. But I was never gifted in the way that they were. So it was obvious to them that I sucked at math and STEM in general, and there was no hope for me.

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So they actually, all of them encouraged me to go into arts as opposed to the usual story. That's really nice and I know you mentioned before taking classic calligraphy classes as a child.

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Can you talk more about that and maybe how that has impacted your art style now or if it does? It definitely does. I was just one of those kids who was not good at school at all, so my parents just decided to

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take me to do whatever the hell I wanted. So I tried everything, like, I don't know, like, from story writing to freelance press to accordion, flute, I don't know, whatever, acting,

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ballet, anything that you can think of. The only thing that really stuck with me was art and calligraphy. So... yeah, that was the only thing I was good at.

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Everything else is not good. So it came–yeah, it became a career afterwards. Actually I wanted to be a scientist more than anything, I just don't have the brains for it.

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Was there, like, a specific field of science you were interested in, or just generally a scientist? Oh, I wanted to do biology, and I had a–yeah, I think the world is a

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very...enchanted place. And there's so many things that I don't know about I would like to be... the one figuring it out, but I just wasn't built for it.

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I also wanted to be like a–or I guess a marine biologist when I was younger. Oh my God yeah, exactly. I grew up in Vancouver and Tianjin, which is like both

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by the sea. So I'm very much a fish-oriented, ocean-oriented person. Yeah, I wanted to study, like, underwater ecosystems or something like that. Yeah.

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Me too. What do you study, actually? I study linguistics and Asian studies now. I- Oh, that's fun too, I love linguistics.

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Me too. I-I really enjoy it. But I also figured out pretty early on that math and science were not my friends. Right. My mother told me, if you were going to be a biologist,

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you have to do organic chemistry. You can't even balance the equation, so forget it. I mean. It's true, but it was hard at the time.

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Yeah. I bet. So did you enjoy growing up close to the sea? Like, was that a big part of your childhood memories? Yeah, totally. We'd gone to the sea every summer. Or the mountains, I guess.

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I don't know, my parents are kind of-even though they're engineers, that generation of hippies. I guess that's why they encouraged me to go into arts anyways because they didn't care too much about making money. Because I guess their parents were sort

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of okay, so they just cared about me growing up healthy and surviving. So they-they just didn't put that much pressure on me academically.

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That's really nice. And I think you've mentioned that you're an only child. Yeah, I was born in a generation of only child, so all my friends were only children. That's why we're really close.

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Okay, I see. Can you talk more about your family? Like, did you grow up close to your grandparents or any uncles or aunts or things like that? Yeah, I grew up very close to all of them, and

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my cousins, my uncles and yeah, parents, grandparents. We all grew up around the same neighborhood again. People are all engineers, but they value the arts.

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I think it's because they all STEM people that they appreciated the arts more because they couldn't do it. Whereas I looked up to all of them because I couldn't do what they do. So I naturally wanted to be a scientist,

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but, wasn't capable. Do you have any favorite, like, childhood memory or just anything that's really memorable that you'd want to share? ...I guess we've gone to a lot of rural communities as a child.

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I just didn't-we didn't go on fancy vacations. My parents usually take me out of school to go to, like... They really thought my school studies were hopeless so they took me to see rural Mongolia

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or, like, deep in the mountains and then spend the summer that way. So I did a lot of frolicking in the mountain and catching fish bare hands and actually also was in

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New Zealand for a while so I learned not wearing shoes too, you know, all-all of the-all of the–I did a lot of playing around as a child. Yeah. What's my favorite memory?

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I guess I really like watching cartoons. I just watched a lot of cartoons and that's what ultimately made me an artist, I think. Did you have, like, a favorite cartoon that you'd watch,

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or was it just whatever-whatever would be on TV? Card Captor Sakura. I was talking with my friend from Taiwan about what she grew up watching and she also said Card Captor Sakura.

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It's, like, the, you know, like, the generation before the millennial, it was Sailor Moon. This is like our generation of Sailor Moon. And since you mentioned kind of going on so many different trips-

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which sounds beautiful. Was it-did being in nature so much impact any part of your work today or your perspective on the world as-as a kid?

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I guess I grew up, like, an immigrant in every where. Before the age of ten I changed something like, I don't know, seven, eight schools. And I guess I just see many different kind of lifestyles

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and different values of success and how to live. Like, if you're in rural Mongolia, you know, economic success means nothing to you. Colonialism also means nothing to you.

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You all-all those things. So it-it made everything very relative, but it also made... it made–how I ought to spend my time not a given.

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If I was really stable and grew up in one similar area, it would have been really easy to be, like, okay, this is the standard of success. This is what I ought to do with my life.

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But because I grew up seeing so many version of that, even within China and also New Zealand, it's-it's something I had to think about and decide for myself, which is kind of was, like, fundamentally a really disorienting position,

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but also a lot of freedom. How long were you in or how long were you in New Zealand for? I think almost a year, but it was before I started elementary school.

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Do you have any memories of it, really? Mhm I watch Teletubbies. And then outside was just like Teletubbies and, you know, it looked like that.

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And people didn't wear shoes and sat on the ground. So I learned that. And running around mostly outside and rolling down the hill. You could roll down hills.

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And I remember being a lot of sheep and mutton busting, which is what it was. And I realized what it's called when I first got to Houston. It's called mutton busting. Like a kid wrestling a sheep.

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Volcanoes, all-all nature stuff. I think nature stuff has been, like, really consistent. And that part is, like, even more so because I'm from Vancouver, British Columbia. It's just mainly nature all the time.

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That's really nice to have that connection to nature, I think. Yeah. I get tree withdrawals. Like, if I don't see enough trees or just, like,

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I just need to go see some trees right now. How old were you when you immigrated to Canada with your family? I think 11. Yeah. And how come your family decided to move?

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Well, my parents weren't really down with, I guess, how things were in China politically. And also they-they were the kind that

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like to travel. So it was something that they thought was appropriate. Also I had really, really bad asthma, to the point that I would, like, stay at home for four months at a time because I literally couldn't get out of bed.

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So they thought it was the pollution. And she might need some Canadian air. And it worked and now I don't have asthma. I also have asthma.

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Oh yeah? You do? Was it childhood asthma or is it, like, still around? It's childhood-it was childhood asthma. It's kind of still around, like, if I'm sick or if I

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exercise really hard. We have the exact same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. The same problem. So yeah, pollution was actually a problem back then,

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but now it's okay. I was just in China. You know, I was just in China, like, a to 2 to 3 weeks ago. And now it's okay because they cleaned up a lot and it's okay now, I guess.

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I'm glad it got better. You mentioned also moving to Canada with a lot of your childhood friends. How was that experience?

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I mean, I immigrated earlier with my family and then my childhood friends were just like, well, we want to go study abroad. We don't know where to go. You're in Vancouver. I'll just come find you.

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So two of my friends came and it's really nice. It's like having siblings. When I'm not home, they go visit my parents. That's really nice. So are they still in Vancouver?

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Mhm. They're all software engineers [laughs]. Yeah. And was there a specific reason that your parents settled on Vancouver or not really?

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We did, like, actually drove across Canada twice to decide on where to live. It was just-I think they liked the West Coast or not, they're not very, like, you know, they're not very-they're, like, excessively chill. So they like the West

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Coast. And they decided it was better climate and it wasn't too cold. It was just really, really chill place to live. And people mostly spend their time hiking or kayaking or barbecue or skiing and, you know, do anything aggressively aspirational.

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With the sort of, like, drive across the country to figure out a place. Do you have any memories that you'd like to share? Well, like, at the time, we didn't have any money,

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so we just stayed in cars. I mean, my parents had trouble. They still don't really speak English, and they couldn't do their old job. So they did a lot of—so they couldn't do their

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regular engineering jobs. My mother eventually got back to architecture-ship, but my father never did, so he became a car mechanic. But anyways, the drive across Canada was fun,

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but we mostly just stayed in our car and then during the night they would drive. And because it was so dark and cold and there's lots of snow, the car would, like, slip off the road and end up in the snow. I think it happened twice.

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I think it was, like, waking up and realize I was, like, upside down in the snow. Yeah, but it was fun. Good to see the country. That sounds scary. I'm glad nobody-nobody was hurt,

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right? Yeah. I mean, the snow is really deep. Canada is mostly snow. So that was—it's-it's now it's kind

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of fun thinking back. That sounds like fun. Can you also describe the neighborhood that you moved into in Vancouver?

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In Vancouver or- [SG: in Vancouver.] I also lived in Toronto for a while just to try it. Yeah. Like both of them, but chronologically. So, starting with Vancouver I guess?

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Yeah, it started with Vancouver. We lived in Vancouver for a while. We decided to, like, well, this is nice, but let's try out all of Canada, see if we like anything.

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So we drove across and decided, like, Calgary is kind of too cold and then we just kept going. Saskatoon was a bunch of-nothing in particular. And then-and then ended up in Toronto and decided we have some friends there.

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So we decided to stay for a while. I don't remember that much of it. It was really short. How was the neighborhood? Suburbia. Not-nothing.

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Nothing in particular. In Vancouver, I lived in New Westminster, which is by the Fraser River, for the large part of my life. And it's-it's very quaint

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and it's very quiet, cute. There's lots of antique stores and mostly peaceful, but there are some gang activities. The school got...

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some—there were a few episodes with guns and lockdowns and stuff, but mainly, mainly okay. Was it very different from the neighborhood you grew up in in China? Mhm... It's

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first of all two different countries. So yes, very different. But in terms of population density, it's around the same, like, not exactly central.

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It's not the center of the city. It's more, like, suburbs, but it-it's not deep, deep suburb. It's kind of like light-burb.

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I don't know how to describe it. There's, like, a little town for the burbs. It's kind of that situation. Yeah.

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And were you close with the community that you moved into since you were so close with the children and your community back in China? Mhm. Yeah. I lived in the West for a long, long,

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long, long time. So for most of my teenage years, so I'm very close to my high school friends. And yeah, they're still my best friends. And some of the kids I went to college is also living in US,

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which is a small section of the art community in Vancouver. And it's very, very tight knit, very tight knit. Yeah. So I'm very close to all of them. It's a very heartwarming place.

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That's really nice. Mhm. Was there an Asian community at all? Where you moved into?

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It's like 50% Asian people in Vancouver. That's really nice. Yeah, no, it's mostly it's-it's not it's no, there's no... I don't know.

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When I first moved to New York, it was just people asking me questions, like, how is it like being a minority in North America? And I couldn't under—like I couldn't answer them. I know where they're coming from, but I couldn't answer them sincerely because

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where I come from, I'm in no way a minority. So I guess that kind of relates to the next question I wanted to ask, which was, was it difficult at all to adjust to the move to, like, Canada?

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Did you learn English in China before you came, or was there sort of an adjustment when you got there? When I got, I didn't know any English before I moved. And when I moved over, the teachers were

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on strike, so I didn't go to school for six months. I wasn't sure if it was six months. Like, a few months. And so I just stayed home and watched SpongeBob and I learned English. We didn't have enough money to afford the internet,

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so there was just cable TV. So I just watched SpongeBob all day and then yeah. So SpongeBob was, like, the primary way that you learned English before you started school?

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Yeah, absolutely. My mother tongue is-is-is-is SpongeBob. And it was like SpongeBob and art theory. There's nothing in between. My vocabulary is just that.

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You continued art then, like when you moved to Canada as a kid? Mhm. So my parents decided even though they were really, really poor, they still wanted to-me to take art classes. I didn't even register.

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I liked it because I always done it. It was just like. It was just a thing that I did always, so it didn't register to me that it was a decision or it was—I liked it.

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I just did always. Yeah. So they still put me to art classes when I was in Canada and I took art classes in high school.

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It was-it was like the most natural thing to do. It wasn't really a decision. Are you able to stay connected with your family or your friends back in

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China? I mean I guess, obviously, like, some of your friends came and moved to Canada as well, but was it hard at all to go back and forth? Well, there was I mean—it's—I don't know how to say if it's hard because there are-there are disadvantages and there are

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obviously advantages... There are, like, I don't really feel like anywhere— I don't really feel like China is a home in a

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way anymore, because I was a little too young, but it is still a huge part. It's still also kind of feels like home. It's a very difficult way to

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describe it, but... how to say this? I don't feel like I 100% belong in China and in any way. And in terms of friends, I went to elementary school in China.

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I only have, like, two friends in elementary school and stayed in touch, so I didn't feel like I lost anything because I was too young. But yeah. It's-it-it would be easy for me to say yes it was hard,

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but that wouldn't describe the situation correctly because I obviously gained a lot from not being there. For example, I suck at school. If I stayed and go through the national exam and went

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through the Chinese educational system, I will have a much worse outcome. I know that for a fact. So, I don't know what's better and what I lost. Life is-life happened and this is what happened.

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That makes sense. Sorry. Let me- And before you move to the US, did you have any— sorry, not the US, but Canada, were there any expectations that you had

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about moving there and then if you did, how did they line up sort of with, like, what you actually experienced? I thought it would be more white people, but no. It was just more Cantonese people, that's all.

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That's-that's the difference. What else? ...I mean, I feel like there was racism, but because there was, like, so many of us, it's hard to take it—it's hard to, like, really have it

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get you in any way. Like, kids will point out you're different, but there are, like, so many of us that looks different. It's, like, we all look different. There's so many Indian kids, like, I don't know,

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half of-half of the population is Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese. There's native. And it's just there's no set majority. So it's hard to-it's hard to say what the exact

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pressure is. That's-that sounds really nice that you get to move into such a diverse community. Do you think moving into a community like that has impacted

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your perspective, or sort of the way you go through life as an adult? Yeah. I think it continues from my experience as a child going into rural communities or different ethnic groups of China, like, looking at how they lived.

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And when I moved to Canada, it's a very multicultural, at least in Vancouver it was. I don't want to generalize into, like, all of Canada, there's obviously other areas, there's more racism and less diversity.

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But from my personal experience, it was more, like, I-I understood people come from very different life experience in the way they see me would depend on how

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they lived. So. Is there mosquitoes? Yes, there was a mosquito. Get them all! Is there mosquitoes in Korea? Ah! Oh, that must be so annoying.

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Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, no. I was just, like, oh! That must be so annoying. No, what was I saying? Yeah! I think it did-it did- it did.

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It's easier for me to, I guess, empathize or see what their fears are. I mean, when I was living in New Mexico, there were people outwardly racist towards me because I was, like, the only Asian person there.

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And, like, one moment they might want to pull a gun on me. Because I'm, like, buying too many avocados with the helmet and biking. It's, like, obviously a liberal person. So, and but then, you know, the next moment they'll invite you

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in for cookies and stuff. It was just like. I'm a stranger to them and a source of-a source of unknown, and it's easier for me to imagine how I seem to them.

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And, yeah, in a way, I don't really blame them. It's, like, what the hell is that? Why is she on my lawn? Thanks for sharing. And

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I know you mentioned also that your first job was working at a McDonald's. Can you go more into that experience? It was really fun. Well, my parents didn't have any money, so we were, I guess, living on

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government help and for low income families. But I was-like, in China, you can't work at 11 years old, but in Canada, I guess the legal age is 12, but I started when I was 11.

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I was, like, oh, I could just go make money if my parents don't feel like it. And then-and then-and then I did so. And it was really fun. I get to participate in the economy and make really, really tall ice creams,

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Mcfries. It's like a— well, I think that the benefit of that was I got to participate in society early on. So, like, from that point, I didn't really depend on my parents financially in

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terms of, like, whatever the hell that I wanted. I didn't need to feel like, oh, because my family's poor I can't buy what my friends have. I can just go work that-that would just solve the problem.

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Did you get your job pretty soon after you first moved to Vancouver? I guess yeah, pretty-pretty soon. Wait, I wasn't sure. No, it's probably not 11. How old was I? Sorry. 13.

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Not 13. I don't remember, actually. Don't quote me on that. I actually don't remember. It was just right a little bit above the legal age for very little money. But then I didn't want anything expensive anyways,

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so it was just a fun thing to do. And then I realized the more you change jobs the higher your rate will be. So I just changed a lot of jobs.

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By the time I got to like college, I worked for Louis Vuitton and it was actually substantial money, but it was-it is just something that I did to figure out how to survive, I guess.

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Memorable stories about customers or, like, workshops or anything like that? I mean, I was never good at the job. I just worked long enough to jump to the next company.

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Oh, I remember when I was working at Louis Vuitton, there was one person that came in. Well, first of all, there was a lady that somehow pushed- In McDonald's there was an older lady that came in that ordered an ice cream and

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then halfway through-halfway through, she suddenly yelled her finger fell off and her finger really did. She was like, pushing herself away from her chair and then her finger snapped off somehow, and we had to,

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like, grab a cup and fill it with ice and put the finger in, and then the ambulance come—came. There was also another day where I was, like, at work at 12 a.m. and there's literally two persons stood

00:35:43.330 - 00:35:59.200

outside and one of them just started yelling and charged at the other with a knife and stabbed the other person. I was, like, the only person at McDonald's, it was just like, what happened? There's a lot of stuff like that

00:35:59.390 - 00:36:11.590

happened. What else? Oh, when I was working at Louis Vuitton this one time, when this guy came in, Like, grabbed all the clothes and wanted to try it and he looked really put together.

00:36:11.660 - 00:36:25.460

So I thought, you know, regular customer. And then when I was, like, helping him with his suit, he looked me in the eye and was like "Today my life is going to change." So I was like, wait, you're just getting a suit, man,

00:36:25.460 - 00:36:40.410

chill. And he was like- And then the next thing is, like, I left him there, he changed, and the next thing I knew, he was coming out of the change room with his backpack. So I thought, sure. And I went to clean up his room.

00:36:40.410 - 00:36:58.060

I realized like all the clothes were gone, so it was in his backpack. So I called my manager, they got the police, they caught him. So I realized what he meant after was, like, this is the day where I'm going to be on the other side of law.

00:36:58.390 - 00:37:09.260

Like, he never did anything like this before. So I was, like, oh, this is the first day of being a criminal. Incredible. It is a life decision. You do have to cross it.

00:37:10.480 - 00:37:28.760

All those stories are so interesting. The-that's scary, like the finger falling off. Yeah, I could understand. I guess the human body isn't that sturdy. But I think they

00:37:28.760 - 00:37:41.150

told me later they managed to reattach it because, you know, you took the Coke cup and get a bunch of ice and put the finger in if you held the finger into the hospital. I'm glad it worked out.

00:37:42.370 - 00:37:57.770

Me too. Oh, there was also another time where a bunch of, like, I guess guys from my high school, like, a little older than me or whatever came in with a camera, and I was the only person once again at the cash register,

00:37:57.770 - 00:38:15.060

and they jumped over the desk and started going into the kitchen and started making a Big Mac for themselves. And then they video recorded everything. And I just couldn't—I just didn't like-it just didn't occur to me, like, what is

00:38:15.060 - 00:38:30.290

happening. So I just, like, stood there. And then my manager came out with, like, a literal broom, like, get them to go out. Yeah, definitely sounds like a lot of interesting

00:38:30.320 - 00:38:44.340

stories that you get from working at McDonald's. Yeah, McDonald's was a colorful place. Was it ever hard to balance working and then also going to school since you still had to?

00:38:44.340 - 00:39:00.890

Not really. I was never really good at school, so I just didn't- I just didn't like—schoolwork in Canada is really light. I knew nothing about studying until I got to Columbia.

00:39:00.930 - 00:39:19.750

It's just, like, wow, people really do go to the library. And I guess that kind of segways into the next section I wanted to talk about, which was education. So I know you said you didn't really like school that much, but can you give a brief overview of, like,

00:39:19.870 - 00:39:40.050

your educational journey beginning with your childhood? Mhm. So, I–I went to elementary school in China, and then I moved to Vancouver and changed a few schools there and then went to school in Toronto,

00:39:40.090 - 00:39:58.660

came back, went to school in Vancouver. So, like, there's a lot of changing schools before middle school happened and for middle school, I just stayed in Nuest and studied there. After that, I went to Emily Carr in Vancouver

00:39:59.820 - 00:40:11.660

and stayed there for five years because I had so much fun in school. Art school was really, really nice. It was on Granville Island. It was just hanging out with friends, drinking beer.

00:40:13.500 - 00:40:35.120

Not much study was happening and painted some paintings. Painted a lot because it was fun to hang out in the studio and then I went to––oh, I went to Glasgow, Scotland for half a year on exchange and then backpacked in Europe

00:40:35.120 - 00:40:52.210

for a bit and came back to Emily Carr, finished my degree and then went to Columbia for my Master's. Mainly 'cause I didn't want to go to work. So I applied for Master's.

00:40:52.340 - 00:41:14.600

Yeah, so—–and then I moved to New York and studied there. After that, I taught at Columbia, and then I taught at Bennington College and–and now I'm in Houston.

00:41:17.710 - 00:41:34.120

So you mentioned also—–did you say he's(?) going to school for a little bit in the States before going to college? Oh no. I went to the UK so Glasgow, Scotland. Okay, I see.

00:41:35.070 - 00:41:51.650

Scotland. Glasgow. [laughs] How was it living in Scotland? Really fun! That is the first time where people, like, I remember I was hanging out with like Australian kids and they really

00:41:51.650 - 00:42:07.730

like the outdoors and they wanted to, like, see places, but we're like dirt, dirt poor so we hitchhiked a lot. And there was one point where we went to the tip of Scotland in the Isle of Skye, and our car got

00:42:09.150 - 00:42:19.580

broken down and there was like nothing around, absolutely nothing around. So, like, we walked for a long, long time and saw somebody's house and went in and, like, knocked on the door.

00:42:20.010 - 00:42:31.070

The guy opened the door. He just, like, froze and just, like, sit there. I was like why is he just standing there? And he looked at me and was like, "oh, you're the first Asian person I've ever

00:42:31.070 - 00:42:46.010

seen." I'm like...really? Yeah. So, oh okay. I better represent—– like I better behave. But yeah, he was so nice.

00:42:46.070 - 00:43:03.170

He got to, like, he help us gas up the car again and it was really, really—–he was really, really sweet. I got cookies and biscuit–biscuits and tea. But it occurred to me there are people in like

00:43:05.750 - 00:43:24.960

that–that–that stayed where they—–oh yeah, I asked–I asked him whether or not he's from there, and he told me, no, he's not from there. He's from there. He pointed to the house down the street. I was like "I see."

00:43:26.690 - 00:43:42.460

That's so funny. That sounds so sweet. He gave you, like, biscuits and stuff. Mhm. Yeah. He invited us to watch TV. And did you stay for a while at his house before you got back on the road?

00:43:43.420 - 00:43:59.170

Mmm yeah, because you have to fix the car and everything. Yeah. It was (unintelligible). And in Germany too I went to a Nazi bar by accident. It was just like––I went in for a beer

00:43:59.420 - 00:44:18.910

with my friends, and it didn't occur to me sometimes––because, you know, there wasn't a lot of Asian people in art schools, so sometimes I forget that I look like––I look different.

00:44:19.010 - 00:44:36.980

And I'm hanging out with my friends, it's like, okay. That–that was one of the moments where I realized, oh, wait–wait–wait–wait–wait. I was just there getting a beer, you know, we were chatting and then, like, the guy next to me was just like,

00:44:37.340 - 00:44:50.590

why are you here? I'm, like, getting a beer. It's cool, you know? Like what? And he's like, do you know where you are? I'm, like, at a bar. And he's—–and then he pointed to the wall.

00:44:50.590 - 00:45:06.980

There was like a gigantic swastika on the wall. I was just like. Okay. I'm going to finish my beer, and then I'll go. But he wasn't like aggressively.

00:45:06.980 - 00:45:19.720

He was just like pointed it out just so I know. Don't get in trouble. That's scary. Were you scared at all? I guess I just didn't know.

00:45:19.800 - 00:45:34.420

Like a lot of these situations, I feel like I'm so ignorant to the magnitude of, like, the potential of danger that is just. No, I actually wasn't scared. It was, like, he's nice enough to tell me that I'm at the wrong place.

00:45:34.900 - 00:45:49.500

He couldn't be that bad, you know? They're also like friends that was like before I met their parents. Like during Christmas we're all going to the Christmas market or something. He was, like, just so you know, my father is very racist,

00:45:49.910 - 00:46:04.650

so don't get offended when you see him. I was like, okay, thank you for warning me. It's just they come from a very, very different generation and literally a different world. So, you can't change how they think in one

00:46:04.650 - 00:46:19.540

second. And you mentioned that your art school, like, there weren't as many Asian people attending. Was that difficult to adjust to since you grew up in a community

00:46:19.600 - 00:46:32.420

where there was a really big Asian population? Oh, it was just my department. The design, like, I'm in the fine arts department. I'm in painting department, which is mostly not as

00:46:32.460 - 00:46:49.460

much Asian people. I will still say there's like a good 30% Asian. Was it the design? The design department downstairs is like fully Asian. That's––industrial design is just mostly Asian people. So yeah, no, it wasn't difficult.

00:46:49.460 - 00:47:06.400

Like anywhere in Vancouver is a lot of Asian people. But–but–but I had to––but in art school was the first time where I really had to work hard on my English, because SpongeBob isn't really sufficing for Marxist–Marxist theory, you know,

00:47:06.540 - 00:47:21.090

like you need to level it up a little bit. Yeah. Okay, I see. And was it––so how was school different in China compared to in Canada?

00:47:21.120 - 00:47:35.690

Like, was there any difference in teaching philosophies that you noticed? Oh, totally. Canada, I barely studied. And also, you can get away with so much. You can pick the class that you wanted to take and forget about the rest.

00:47:35.970 - 00:47:45.540

So I never really learned algebra. Like, I don't know how to do it. Which now I'm kind of sad about. It's kind of useful, to be honest.

00:47:47.200 - 00:48:03.780

In China, everyone took the same test. Everyone had the same way of—–everyone did the same thing, and I frankly sucked at school. Like I really, really sucked at school in China.

00:48:04.990 - 00:48:20.530

It just wasn't the way that I can learn. Yeah. It's very different. In Canada it doesn't matter if you suck at school that much. In China, if you suck at school, you're kind of a loser through and through.

00:48:21.320 - 00:48:38.700

I see. Thanks for explaining. I wanted to move on to your work slash career now if that's okay. If you didn't, like, have anything else you wanted to add? [YJ: Mhm.] Sure. So before we get into the questions,

00:48:38.700 - 00:48:54.690

can you give a brief overview of your career so far? So I'm an artist. I've worked in painting and animation. So far–so far–so far, so good.

00:48:55.950 - 00:49:16.310

What's–what's the career like? I think I mainly––so I usually exhibit paintings in solo exhibitions, and my animations go to film festivals and in museums

00:49:16.370 - 00:49:29.030

and more institutions. Yeah. Can you describe your painting style? Like, do you—–would you say that you belong to a specific school or there's anything

00:49:29.030 - 00:49:47.360

specifically that you draw inspiration from? Mainly from everyday life, I draw inspiration. So a lot of my experience in moving around, like, growing up in diaspora and also just like within China,

00:49:47.410 - 00:50:03.860

involved a lot of moving around. And I move still till this day on average once a year, different state, sometimes less than that. So, it's natural for me to draw from my environment because it's

00:50:03.950 - 00:50:24.130

always new and exciting for me and nature, obviously, different landscape is very nice to see. And I draw also a lot from other disciplines. So philosophy of science, natural philosophy and

00:50:27.160 - 00:50:43.860

all of the sciences and literature. So in particular magical realism, Latin American literature, and Chinese literature also. Painting style: somewhere between Impressionism and Surrealism,

00:50:44.320 - 00:50:57.270

like I guess. But I utilize multiple technologies, so 3D rendering for model building or AI or generative coding and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

00:50:59.760 - 00:51:15.930

Are you trained in any specific style going to college or not really? Before going to college, I was trained in China, so it was mainly influenced by the Russian Academy school because the history of Marxism and the association between the two countries.

00:51:15.930 - 00:51:32.650

So like in retrospect, I realized it's like Russian social realism, but I realized that afterwards. And calligraphy. So Chinese ink paintings. And in Emily Carr, I was brought up by generations

00:51:32.910 - 00:51:52.080

of women abstract painters. So Elizabeth McIntosh, Linda McKenzie, and Ben Reeves is like very trained in that way of, like, abstract, formalism and yeah, pure

00:51:52.420 - 00:52:10.290

painting–painting. It's a mix of all the things. And you mentioned also that questions of philosophy or philosophy of science, you draw a lot of inspiration from that.

00:52:10.470 - 00:52:30.580

So are there certain questions that you keep going back to or that you're looking to answer in any of your works? Yeah, well. At Columbia, I spent most of my time going to philosophy and science

00:52:30.610 - 00:52:53.230

classes and, I guess, one thing that's really interesting to me is the nature of time and space. And how the changing understanding of that fundamentally is going to change how we

00:52:54.550 - 00:53:12.020

live as humans. So, I guess fundamental questions are very interesting to me. And that relates to ancient Chinese philosophy such as Taoism and Buddhism. Yeah. Cosmic truth. I guess big things.

00:53:16.500 - 00:53:34.660

Oh, and I know that you also like a multimedia artist. So, can you go into why you sort of started venturing into animation or like 3D rendering and things like that? And, why–—like, what do you think it contributes to the explorations that you try

00:53:34.660 - 00:53:47.520

and do through your paintings? Well, I was trained as a painter very much so, but I was always interested in philosophy. I was also always interested in

00:53:51.210 - 00:54:04.250

figuring out how things work. I guess, like, I never gave up on my scientist dreams. I just couldn't do it in that way. Yeah, I was always trying to figure out how the world works,

00:54:04.610 - 00:54:21.520

even on a really abstract level, not on a specific level. So, that's what I was drawn to, but I was studying it—I was trying to do it, and it couldn't come out in my art because I was just a painter.

00:54:22.490 - 00:54:36.150

So I basically felt constipated, and I realized if you just, like, made the paintings move, you can add words to it. And I made a slide show essentially to tell a story,

00:54:36.640 - 00:54:52.870

and I was also really interested in literature, so it was natural for me to bullshit a story and that and it became, oh yeah, I could paint, so I just need like few more images to tell a story and I can write a story.

00:54:54.190 - 00:55:08.590

And those two things naturally evolved into animation eventually. That sounds really cool. And— It's really fun life. I have no complaints.

00:55:11.330 - 00:55:25.860

Nice. Oh, that's really–that's really nice. And I know you also mentioned that you draw inspiration from Chinese literature, Latin American literature. Are there any authors specifically within those realms that you draw the most

00:55:25.930 - 00:55:41.710

inspiration from? Totally. I mean, on the genre of like—like my intro to literature was Murakami, which is really typical. That's how it is. But I'm a huge Borges fan.

00:55:42.900 - 00:56:00.370

I think it was amazing that he can make something so mathematical, sober and logical and clear into these beautiful poetic like surrealist situations.

00:56:00.400 - 00:56:17.220

I think he was a good example of the way in which I feel art could be contributing to the progress of understanding the world, not just science—–like art is also able.

00:56:17.750 - 00:56:33.680

So, he was like a good model for me to be like, oh, I could do it this way. And it made me feel really good about my discipline. And are there any

00:56:34.140 - 00:56:53.090

painters that you take a lot of inspiration from as well? I mean, I love Monet. Again, very typical, but it was just like––I mean, I first saw one of his paintings in the local library in Vancouver.

00:56:53.150 - 00:57:04.320

It was just like on a pamphlet, and it made me cry. I was like, what the fuck? Why am I crying at this? Like stupid, like bad print out of this pamphlet.

00:57:05.040 - 00:57:22.920

It was just like incredible how somebody is able to communicate a moment in his life so directly to an absolute stranger living at a different time and space. I thought that was, like, almost magical.

00:57:24.530 - 00:57:36.600

That's a wonderful technology. I want to be able to do that. That's so cool. And how has your or how do you think your art has changed over time?

00:57:51.000 - 00:58:11.660

I think now I feel like there are things that I wanted. Before I feel like there are things that I wanted to make because I wanted to see if I'm able to do

00:58:15.540 - 00:58:35.150

it. But now I feel like I'm able to do it. And now I want to make things that doesn't exist yet. I think there are–there are–there are now things that I want that doesn't–doesn't exist in culture or I don't know that

00:58:35.880 - 00:58:51.860

they exist. I guess specifically the intersection between visual arts and philosophy and science and I guess, yeah, analytical philosophy in general.

00:58:52.130 - 00:59:07.080

I would love for those things to exist, but they don't. So, I feel now motivated to fill that void. I see. And do you think

00:59:07.350 - 00:59:27.540

your painting style has changed at all since you began? Definitely. I mean, with like the evolvement of technology and also how I––like the animation involved a lot of tech. Before graduate school, I was the kind of person that couldn't get a

00:59:27.580 - 00:59:45.270

printer to work. I really had to, like, bang my head against the computer, like literally, to figure out how to use technology. And now it's a huge part of my practice. So that is a huge change.

00:59:45.490 - 00:59:59.740

And that made paintings change, but also that as a painter, I remember my graduate professor used to call it like an old man's sport—–I guess he also meant woman. But it was just like the kind of sport the more you do,

00:59:59.740 - 01:00:19.840

the better you are at it kind of inevitably because it's a physical activity. So that part changed also. And since such a large part of your process now is including

01:00:20.000 - 01:00:39.290

technology and things like that, obviously like recently AI has been making big waves in that. Do you think that AI would ever–—like that would ever be something you would be interested in incorporating in the future, or like if artistic processes could benefit from AI?

01:00:39.290 - 01:00:55.860

I already use it, so it's part of the work. I think, like, I use it for animation. I also build my own smaller networks for specific things.

01:00:55.980 - 01:01:12.770

So yeah, already use it. There's something that's really uncanny about using it, which is it reminds me that the––like with every piece of technology or every particular software, it has a natural way

01:01:13.020 - 01:01:35.380

that it wants to be. Like, it wants to make things that look like that defaultly––like–like Windows Paint want to look like primary colors and like AI generated images tend to look like

01:01:37.730 - 01:01:54.120

a surrealism, to be honest. So, surrealism was respecting your unconscious intuitions, so there's something really strange about that

01:01:55.270 - 01:02:11.540

rhyming situation where the AI generated images is pretty much like your mind if you truly respect it's randomized generation of thoughts and images. I don't know what that means, I feel like.

01:02:17.600 - 01:02:35.300

Yeah, th-there's some weird connection there that's geometrical and mathematical that's gonna tell us later on about how, like, neural nets and how our own mind work, I feel. That's so interesting.

01:02:36.610 - 01:02:50.140

Yeah. I guess, I just don't really–—maybe I don't really understand how AI works. I've never used it really. But can you describe how the process looks like when you incorporate it in the art that you do now?

01:02:51.650 - 01:03:10.150

It happens in like many, many different ways. Like in–in–in animation, it's usually in the rendering stage. Well I work with my collaborator who I met in grad school, James Mercer, and what he will often do is

01:03:10.210 - 01:03:31.280

reduce the amount of information he'll give to the rendering engine. And then the rendering engine will guess what–what he thinks—–what the what they think they're seeing. So AI sort of fill in the blanks.

01:03:31.400 - 01:03:48.730

So that's a way in which it's incorporated in my own works. I would create control groups and specific slew of different networks to do really, really specific things.

01:03:48.950 - 01:04:07.380

For example, generate a flock of birds that lay in a very specific shape and yeah. It's just to do–it's just to do very, very specific things. And–and then I will use that as a reference and

01:04:07.520 - 01:04:23.340

then incorporate it into a painting. Thank you for explaining. And I guess since because I also know that there's sort of been a debate recently, especially with things like ChatGPT—–like

01:04:25.980 - 01:04:41.750

the AIs where you have to give them input, where they can learn from, especially among, like, the art community, that people's works are being plagiarized to feed into the engine. Do you have any, like, specific thoughts about that?

01:04:46.310 - 01:05:05.850

I feel like this is the beginning of a gigantic shift in the creative economy. There is a sense where once the technology exists, I don't think there's anything you can do to stop

01:05:07.830 - 01:05:22.850

the system from exploiting that or taking advantage of that. I think, it's obviously more cost efficient than a human person, so those jobs that are––that

01:05:27.020 - 01:05:50.780

can be replaced will be replaced despite––this is just a really depressing prediction, but I think––I don't know what it will mean. Okay, here's the thing. I think it will make clear

01:05:51.120 - 01:06:11.700

what is the difference between human intelligence and AI. I think it will make that distinction very clear if there are any and if

01:06:11.800 - 01:06:30.400

there are fundamentally none. There's nothing stopping us from them taking over. And–and I think that's fundamentally going to change the–the–the–the structure and

01:06:31.530 - 01:06:43.840

the structure of society. It's not just the creative force. It's all the forces. So once human labor, as in, you know, a brain walker gets

01:06:44.450 - 01:07:05.150

replaced by a machine and the whole labor structure and everything is going to change. So what we're out to do with our lives will fundamentally change. This is not a small riot issue. This is something on the part like on the scale of industrial

01:07:05.150 - 01:07:19.930

revolution. So, that's what I think. Let's see what happens. Thanks for sharing. And I guess how—–do you have a specific art process for when you're painting or,

01:07:19.930 - 01:07:37.320

I guess, animating or things like that? Well painting I kind of start with a digital sketch and then I'll make an image and that will be my reference, and then I'll paint the painting. A lot of stuff happens during painting too, so it's just a

01:07:37.320 - 01:07:53.550

guideline. And often it also starts with photography. For–for animation and for other project, it all starts with an idea. It's usually a conceptual idea, an idea from philosophy of science, an idea from philosophy in general,

01:07:54.120 - 01:08:09.400

or a story that I had in mind that it's fictional, and then I will choose whatever the appropriate aesthetic or structure to tell the story. And that's usually how it works.

01:08:09.690 - 01:08:23.600

Just involves a lot of time. When you paint, is there a specific medium like oil paints or anything that you prefer using? Yeah, I'm an oil painter.

01:08:26.510 - 01:08:39.620

Cool. And do you identify or, like, how has your identity, your background as a Chinese immigrant and a woman impact your work? Mmm, I guess entirely.

01:08:39.930 - 01:09:00.910

I mean, I am a conglomerate of my life experiences, and I am a Chinese Canadian diaspora person. So, yeah, all–all of it comes—–I'm a scoop of all those things, and it naturally comes out as

01:09:02.090 - 01:09:22.160

that. But I tend to shy away from having that be something that is the only thing that I'm able to talk about. For example, people like to focus on that, but

01:09:22.980 - 01:09:35.750

I think it is already who I am. I don't need to focus on it. Whatever I make will have that in it, so I can free myself to discuss other things that I'm interested in, let's say science.

01:09:39.050 - 01:09:55.930

Or AI, you know, like, yeah. So would you, I guess, you wouldn't consider yourself like specifically an Asian American artist or but do you consider yourself like a global artist with particular reference to Chinese culture or anything like that?

01:09:58.140 - 01:10:16.260

Mmm. How do I consider myself? I'm a person. I mean, like, it will always change, right? So like at this point in life, I am Chinese Canadian. But now I live in States for I don't know how many years,

01:10:16.260 - 01:10:34.340

so I have to like keep adding. And I also lived in Europe for a while, so like I have to keep adding, so I don't know how to clearly say what it is and give an honest picture wi-without

01:10:34.340 - 01:10:48.650

reducing it to something that is not true. Or like, yeah. If that makes sense. That–that makes sense. Thank you.

01:10:49.790 - 01:11:03.400

So that was kind of all the questions I had prepared for this section. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on or include? No. You do. You had wonderful questions. I had really a lot of fun answering them.

01:11:03.430 - 01:11:20.950

Thank you. It was also really fun hearing your answer, so thank you. I guess the last kind of section that I had was maybe more about personal details. So I guess to begin, would you, could you share,

01:11:20.950 - 01:11:37.690

like, how you identify yourself? Oh–oh. She/her. Sometimes it. [SG: And––] I'm serious about that. Okay, okay. Thank you.

01:11:38.200 - 01:11:52.680

And do you—–sorry, I should have asked that earlier. Oh, no. No, no. And do you consider yourself–—I guess we kind of just talked about this in relation to who you are as an artist, but do you consider yourself like

01:11:53.930 - 01:12:12.180

predominantly Chinese, Chinese-Canadian? Is there a specific label you use, or do you tend not to try to use them? I think–I think the closest thing I can grab on to is Chinese Canadian. And what do you like to do in your spare time?

01:12:15.880 - 01:12:32.580

Yeah, this is the question I fear the most. I actually have no hobbies. I go dancing, I don't know? Yeah. I mostly work. Work is my hobby.

01:12:34.330 - 01:12:50.740

You watch like TV or read at all? I mean, like, that's kind of work, [SG: Oh, I see.] too. Research. If that counts as a hobby, then yes, I watch–I watch–I watch a shit ton of cartoons.

01:12:51.200 - 01:13:06.700

Is there a specific cartoon that you really like or a recent favorite? I don't have a recent favorite, recent anime kind of sucks. Was it––Evangelion.

01:13:08.920 - 01:13:19.400

Ghost in the shell. Oh, my friend was recommending it to me, and I have it on my list, but I haven't watched it yet. I watched the TV series.

01:13:21.330 - 01:13:30.040

Deep, philosophical. Very nice. Okay. Awesome. I will recommend.

01:13:31.950 - 01:13:47.060

Where do you, I guess, next, where do you feel the most at peace or at home? I guess it could also be an action too, like, not a location. Mmm. Where at home? I guess, as of now, because I've just been to China,

01:13:47.810 - 01:14:04.730

so I don't feel like I need to go eat Chinese food right now because I just ate a lot of it. So right now I have––I want to go to, like, a Canadian forest and breathe some trees. Was there a specific location?

01:14:05.980 - 01:14:13.890

Vancouver Island? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. I don't have a specific location. It's hard. It's hard if you're—–damn.

01:14:16.830 - 01:14:33.700

Yeah. It's hard if you're like an immigrant through and through. Where is home? It's really a hard question. Okay. Thanks. Is there a food that reminds you the

01:14:33.700 - 01:14:50.460

most of your childhood or like a favorite food at all? Egg and tomato stir fry. Do you have any, like, memories associated with that, or is it just sort of like a favorite of your childhood?

01:14:53.640 - 01:15:09.910

My grandpa used to make it a lot, but it's just–it's just very, very, very basic, like, home cooked Chinese food. Also sashimi salad is like my staple in growing up in Vancouver.

01:15:09.910 - 01:15:27.750

Do you enjoy cooking at all or not really? I like it 'cause I'm Chinese. But I'm not good at it in Chinese standard, which is high.

01:15:28.270 - 01:15:50.700

And do you have any goals for yourself in the future? Goals. Yeah. I have–I have–I have–I have art dreams,

01:15:50.770 - 01:16:10.100

which is what I just told you. I want to make art in the intersection between art and philosophy. I feel like there isn't a lot of it. Goals. I think I want to study philosophy seriously

01:16:10.450 - 01:16:24.190

at some point in order to make the art I want to make. Mostly–mostly art goals. I don't have any other goals. Thank you, thank you. I guess is there any, like,

01:16:24.220 - 01:16:41.110

specific exhibit or piece of art that you're the most proud of? Or not really? I think I'm mostly proud—most proud of my animations,

01:16:41.140 - 01:16:54.760

but some painting I'm really proud of too. No, it's hard to. It's like it's asking me to pick my favorite child. They're going to hear it. Okay. Thank

01:16:56.280 - 01:17:15.970

you. If you could go back in time, are there any lessons that you've learned, sort of, throughout your adult life that you'd like to share with your younger self? No, I think I want to respect their ignorance.

01:17:16.020 - 01:17:33.080

You only get to be ignorant once when you live a life, you know, it's a–it's a really special gift where you don't know shit. Like you can't learn anything. And since such a big part of your life so far has been sort

01:17:33.080 - 01:17:51.370

of moving around different places, and you've been to a lot of very diverse cities like Vancouver, New York, Houston, I guess. And you've like—–have you observed anything about the differences in the Asian or Asian American communities and specifically Chinese communities

01:17:51.370 - 01:18:06.920

since that most pertains to you that are different amongst these cities? Yeah, I feel like in Vancouver there's a—–I mean, because there's such a large population of Chinese people, you know?

01:18:13.050 - 01:18:35.010

It's–it's–it's a citywide community situation. Ah, it's less segregated in Vancouver. In Houston, I feel like every ethnic group has their own neighborhood and the same—–I guess in New York,

01:18:35.010 - 01:18:52.110

too. But it's like separate by streets. Like, you know, Chinatown is like two street and you walk a little bit it's all Italian, and you walk a little bit. But in Vancouver it's very much like more together.

01:18:52.970 - 01:19:11.930

Of course, there's different sections with more Chinese people, but it seems more permea-permeable. Yeah. I-It does feel different in a lot of ways. Okay, the most shocking thing I learned when I was

01:19:11.930 - 01:19:34.800

in LA was there were––I have friends in LA that grew up in LA Korean town that they are so insulated in their community that there's—–even though it's just like next door, a lot of the kids don't go to the Korean

01:19:34.800 - 01:19:53.370

restaurants because they're not Korean, even though it's like right there. And that was like the thing that blew my mind and was like, why wouldn't you just go in since it's right there? And they'll be like, that's their's—that's–that's part of their

01:19:53.370 - 01:20:11.540

community. We don't go there. Yeah. That was, I think, culture shock for me. Yeah. That's so–that's so interesting. I guess that was kind of all the questions that I had prepared,

01:20:11.540 - 01:20:28.170

but is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to include before we finish? No. You've been so thorough. I feel like–I feel like you

01:20:28.170 - 01:20:44.120

know my whole life story. Thank you so much for, like, agreeing to be part of the Archive and to this interview. It was really an honor to talk with you. It was so much fun and very interesting.

01:20:44.900 - 01:21:01.220

Oh, thank you so much for your time and thank you for the invite. I guess there's one thing I wanted to say. I don't want to feel like I'm not–—like while I'm answering the questions, I feel like I'm trying to say it as–as

01:21:01.310 - 01:21:17.760

honestly as I could, but I don't—–and sometimes when I see say these things, it feels like I'm––a lot of time I feel misunderstood as somebody that doesn't feel like they identify with being an Asian American.

01:21:18.790 - 01:21:33.970

First of all, I'm not. I'm like Chinese Canadian, but I do feel like I want to be honest and specific in a

01:21:34.650 - 01:21:56.190

way that is true to what I experienced, but that is not in disagreement with aligning with what people are fighting for, what people are asking for here. Yeah. Which is equality, which is

01:21:58.020 - 01:22:15.040

visibility and stuff like basic human needs and all the above. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. I hope you get to have a good night and you get

01:22:15.230 - 01:22:30.370

some rest. It's probably really late there. It's actually––the morning just started, so it's 9:30 right now. Oh my God, how come it looks so dark there? Oh, it's––there's, like, the rest of the room behind me.

01:22:30.470 - 01:22:39.170

This isn't actually outside. There's just blinds. Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Well, good morning. Hope you have a very nice day.

01:22:39.170 - 01:22:45.370

I'm ending the recording.