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All right. So, today is Monday, February 19th, 2024. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Miss Xin Liu for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice. So, to start from the very beginning, could you please state your full name and

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then tell us where and when you were born? My name is Xin Liu. I was born in Xinjiang, 克拉玛依, February 25th, 1991. And how would you describe the household that you grew up in?

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For example, how was your relationship with your parents, and then with your siblings, if you have any? I don't have any siblings. I'm a single child. My parents, they're both surgeons.

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So, when I grew up, they were always quite busy. So, I think before I was ten, I kind of spent quite amount of my childhood with my grandparents. My father's parents,

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since they just retired when I was born, so they had a lot of time to spend with me. I see. Yeah, that's really interesting. What do you think were some important values or lessons that your parents or your

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grandparents instilled as you—instilled in you as you were growing up? I think my parents, especially m-my mom, she is very eager learner, I'll say. She was keen on

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learning English, even when she was like 50, 40 years old. And she always was very serious about keep updating herself with medical knowledges.

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She got very high ranking at the end of her career, so equivalent of a professorship in her, like, medical category, I'll say. So, I feel, like, even though they never asked me to be a good

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student, I kind of see the importance of it by the action of my parents. They are good workers. They are very much, kind of,

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like, salary people. So, my dad was not interested in taking on any debts. So, they would only earn money based on their labor and efforts, so there's something quite interesting about that.

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I found inte—like, fascinating, as I moved to the US, and people's relationship with money was–was very different. And for my grandparents, when I lived with them, they are already retired.

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So, I didn't really know how they were like when they were still working. Yet they are very tender, they took great care of me. I think I felt very much loved as a kid, and I could essentially do anything I wanted.

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Which might not be that great for my mom, because she sometimes complained that I just had no discipline because my grandparents allowed me to do whatever. But in t—like, in totality of it, I think I had a pretty

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relaxed childhood. I was lucky that I was always good at school, so I wasn't really, like, bothered by the fact that I need to go to school. In the meantime, I was able to enjoy my childhood life

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very much, really, after homework every day. That's great. Yeah, it sounds like a very sweet childhood. [XL: Thank you.] What would you say is, like, the most fond memory that you have with either your parents or your grandparents?

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That's a really good question. I think there are moments that I remember them, where I found such loving and tender and care. But there's also like, really intense moments,

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like, I-I remember getting beaten up by my mom a couple of times when I was kids. Because back then, I don't think hitting your child was a thing. And my mom, she, because they work so much, I

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think the-the other side of it is they don't have much patience. So, if I wasn't doing something right, they don't really have patience or the–the knowledge in terms of how to talk me out of it. So, they would just beat the kid and then make sure,

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like, they'll listen. But in terms of fond memories, I remember my grandpa, when I was little, I really liked eating sunflower seeds, but I don't like to kind of crack them open.

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So, my grandpa, he would, like, open one by one by hand and make a little bag of just the seeds for me, for my snack to go to school. And I, now, like, often think about that because I-I

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think somehow, for me, the act of peeling a skin of a fruit or things like that is–is really, in my mind, the ultimate act of love, I think. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think definitely food and acts of service is a really sweet

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way to show love and also very common in Asian families. And a follow-up question to that, what was the first memory that you have of specifically creating art? I-I don't know whether that was—would be called art.

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But I remember I-I had, like, a craft school homework where the teacher was like, "You all make a little model of something." And my grandpa, he helped me working on this homework. And mostly, he did everything,

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I think. Very meticulously using paper and glue, and he made this little house that is where he grew up. Back in his hometown, which is actually not in Xinjiang, but in Shandong. And he was telling me, like,

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this is a house. This is where the cabin is and where they have the animal—they kept animals and, like, this is the field. I remember working with him on that little field from his memory, but like, it was really fun to make models

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and I felt, like, really proud that we accomplished such like architectural-level, sculpture, I would say, back then. But that was, like, when I was super young. I didn't really see myself as a, like

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as an artistic kid. I think I always like to make crafty things, but I-I never really understand or, like, have even a conception of being—art making in–in the way that I do stuff.

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I see. And at what age do you think you began to see yourself as an artist? Oh, that's much, very much later in life. Probably, like, 22, 23.

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Oh, I see. Yeah, that's really interesting. I guess going back to your parents, hearing that they're both surgeons, I feel like that's really interesting because surgery is kind of both science slash medical and also almost a form of art.

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Do you think that their career kind of influenced your own career path that combines science and art? Not really, because they never really, like, encouraged me to be doctors.

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At least not like verbally. I don't recall that. Actually, I got this pre-admission to a pretty good school in China at Fudan University to be a

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doctor. My mom was like, "No, don't even do that. It will be, like, you'll be in school forever. Try something else." But I think, for me, there's some kind of, like,

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interest in medical histories and instrumentations that I can relate to nowadays. That's more, like, something I feel, like, just in the background of my memories, and sometimes I can draw it out for my current

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art making. But there wasn't really, like, an inspiration do—to do, like, science and art from that particular relationship with my parents. I see, yeah. That makes sense.

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And I guess moving on to college, could you share which college you attended and what years you were there? I went to college in 2009, in Tsinghua University.

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And my major was called Precision Instruments. 精密仪器机械. Nice. And, so I saw that you studied both engineering and design in college. So, was it difficult to balance two degrees at once?

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And what was, like, the most enjoyable part of that? Well, the design is called game design and digital media, so I honestly think it wasn't that hard. [laughs] Because it was more like you're just playing video games and,

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like, talk about them. But it took quite some, or most of my Saturdays, throughout the college time. They don't really have classes during the week,

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so they packed all the second-degree majors courses during the weekends. So that was just time-consuming. But in terms of the work itself, it was much easier than my main course. So, I had fun with it.

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And for me, the part I think is really just to be able to make some other—like, some friends that are from different departments. Because in my department, I think after sophomore, I feel, like, pretty frustrated in terms of,

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like, the kind of the culture of it. Because it is engineering, but, like, not the cool computer science back then. It was like the very old-fashioned mechanical engineering

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industry–industry-driven work that nowadays, I really appreciate I learned it, but back then, there is a big gap between like what we're learning versus, like, what we can actually do.

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So the work, I feel like often–often was just, like, trying to finish up homework and get a good GPA at the end of the day. I don't really see a purpose of the learning themselves. So, for me, having a second degree and doing internships,

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like, things like that, was adding a lot more to my kind of dull college life as an engineering student. I see. And I guess kind of focusing more on your engineering training, in that case. What do you—like, could you describe your engineering training,

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and then also what made you pivot to then pursue an art career instead of a full engineering career? Although I do recognize that much of your art is tied closely to science and engineering. Yeah. So, my major was called Precision Instrument and Mechanical

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Engineering, essentially. So, lots of the work we actually did was, like, very much large-scale industrial applications, like MEMS, designing a chip, or [unintelligible] was a division of my senior year was, like, on friction.

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So, all they study was fr-friction. So, it's super specific. We learn mostly MechE and a little bit, like, aerodynamics, heat transfer, that kind of work.

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So, it is mechanical, but slightly broader because you need to also understand, like, electronics, if you're doing, like, chip design or instrumentation, such like satellites. So, the department is very, like,

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heavy, in terms of, like, its identity, I would say. Like, it's very focused on developing or, like, educating young students to becoming the, kind of the–the, really, the pebbles of the country's

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industrial construction or something. I don't–I don't even know how to say that in English. But for me, it was not too hard in terms of the coursework.

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Because I do, like, physics and maths a lot, but I just wasn't able to see the kind of things I was learning and what are they meant for in the applied world. So, that was very frustrating for, like, a couple of years.

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Until much later, I think even in grad school, I slowly realized what kind of projects can actually make use of the fundamentals I learned in college. I really wish that they could have had more,

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like, combination of project-based and fundamental teaching together, so the students, like myself, would feel excited about learning all that and see there's a–there's a reason to use it. So, when I was doing my second major, I was very much,

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like, keen on making projects. So, I collaborated quite a bit with the Department of Fashions and then, like, making some wearable devices with them. And I did, like, internship at CS departments,

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because then software is much easier to–to make something, as long as you have computer. And I even did, like, a full-time internship in my senior year at Microsoft Research Asia.

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So, I felt like that was my time to finally put my knowledge into use and, like, be able to understand how those gaps is limiting my—or, like, kind of, stopped me from

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growing interest or continuing my education in my department, for–for master's. Yeah, I definitely agree. I think, like, tangible applications and projects are super important to–to keeping

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students engaged. So, you mentioned you helped to make like wearable devices in the fashion program. Do you recall, like, which devices those were? Yeah, it was really kind of funny.

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But it was in 2008, I think our project even, like, became the first ever smart clothing in China or something, some exhibition. But it was, like, I was using these electromagnets that can be activated when people are,

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like, close to each other. So it's these fashion outfits for couples, and there's pockets on the body, and it only opens when the other person is your, like, "match". It was kind of funny.

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Yeah, that's so cool. I know, like, nowadays they have those bracelets or those necklaces that also have the magnets, I think also for couples. But yeah, that's–that's such a cool idea. And then, I was also curious because you mentioned before that you began to see yourself as an

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artist around 22 or 23. Was that also when you made the decision to pursue art full-time? And I was also curious, were your parents supportive of this decision?

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Yeah, that's one I want to RISD. I think my parents wasn't, like, supportive nor discouraging because they had no idea what I was doing, anyway. They are very interesting because,

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maybe because I was always very independent. Plus, I went to boarding school for high school at the age of 15, so I basically left home when I was 15. And I was always really good at school.

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So, for Asian parents, as you get that covered, you're probably fine. So, when I got, like, admissions to overseas schools, they were like, "Okay, it is, like, art because, you know, the school is called literally Rhode Island

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School of Design." But because I went to Tsinghua, and they kind of trust me, so they're like, "Okay, go ahead." And I was able to get some fellowship, so it wasn't too expensive for them either.

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And I think they just generally was happy that I was able to study overseas. And the school itself has a good ranking, doesn't matter which degree or what kind of subject learning I was choosing by then.

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Yeah, RISD is for sure an amazing school. And it's good that they trusted you to take that step overseas. I guess, like, during college, do you recall any professors or mentors that left a lasting impact on you?

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Yeah. So, I had a professor when I was doing my second degree, he was the one who actually graduated from RISD, and he was the one who encouraged me to study because he, I don't know, saw something in me.

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And I think there are also some other professors I worked with actually in the CS computer department that kind of encouraged me to pursue computer-human interaction—human-computer interaction, HCI, as like a sub-domain in CS.

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Because I have interest in hardware, you know, knowledge in that from my engineering degree, and I-I know a bit of design. So, that was kind of a leeway for me to do those internships

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in different research departments in tech companies, and then ultimately led me to MIT Media Lab after RISD. Yes. And then we'll definitely get more–more in detail with those later in the interview. But I guess during college or shortly after graduating,

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I saw that you were already kind of paving your way in the art world, and you participated in exhibitions in Munich, Rhode Island, and also various cities in China. So, how did you begin to establish yourself as an artist,

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and was it difficult to do so while balancing other aspects of your life? Well, when you're studying in RISD, I think doing exhibition was very much encouraged. So, that was easy, it was not, like, a separate thing I was trying to do.

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And I think I was always the kind of person that is like, "Well, it doesn't hurt if I apply." So, lots of those opportunities at the earlier stage of my career is, like, me applying for things and get them. And I kind of probably applied a lot more and didn't get most of them.

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But whatever left there was [unintelligible], I end up going and be able to present my work. And it's also nice because when you present work overseas and et cetera, there's sometimes funding for students, if you are still at grad school.

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So, I was, like, keen on, like, kind of hustle my way to be able to get funding and go to conferences and be able to—I think the Munich trip was actually the first time I ever went to Europe, and that was supported by a research or, like,

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presentation grant that I got from RISD. Nice. And I guess when you moved overseas to go to RISD, do you recall any challenges that you faced when trying to adjust to life in a new country, or any cultural shock that you recall?

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Yeah, the cultural shock was, like, paper towel and dryers, I think that was like crazy. Thinking, this country is so wasteful. [laughs] I couldn't understand it for, like,

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a couple months. But then I see, like, why they are nice. But I still think it's, they are very, like, wasteful objects. Cultural shock wise, I wasn't very good at English at the beginning,

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but I-I was able to pass all the exams. But I didn't have the kind of daily conversation. Or, like, I–I understand English, I'll put it this way. But I didn't know the cultural references enough.

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Because they would talk about TV shows, they would talk about music, and particularly in the arts, people talk about artists and philosophers. It was just really difficult to be engaging with students outside of class.

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At class, at least I can look at a book and guessing what's going on. But then, outside of class, going to a pub, I just found it was really difficult to have, like, social ability to, like, hang out and making jokes.

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So, I think for the first year, I mostly only hang out with, like, Chinese students. And was pretty isolated. But I wasn't feeling too bad because

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I was very stressed about the work, given that I never had art history background, so I was spending quite a lot of time just in library and reading. So, I was not, like, feeling formal about missing out on the pubs and stuff.

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And later in the summer, so a year after I went to RISD, I got an internship at Google. And that was amazing because I think somehow, because I was, at the time, still very much a nerd,

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I was able to get friends in Google much easier than the time I was in RISD. And because I was working in–in a team. So, I had to, like,

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talk to people a lot more, and that really helped me to become, like, comfortable in social settings and learning different things. And then after that summer when I went back to RISD, I felt much more at ease in social settings.

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But ultimately, I don't think I very much enjoyed the social dynamics in RISD. But that's a different topic because I think there is this aspect of, like, cultural difference for

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white, privileged kids who go to RISD, that I just didn't get it. [laughs] And socially, there's also some kind of discrimination, very, very subtle.

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Because I think lots of the schools nowadays, you know, relying on overseas students for the tuition, and then a lot of, like, hidden judgment around, like, whether international students are as qualified as the so-called,

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like, local students. But I really don't think that's the case. And on the contrary, I think lots of international students worked much harder because we–we try to, like, stay here afterwards. But it's very like, hidden.

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And there's also some kind of misogynist. I think it was, you know, about almost ten years ago. Things got much better after Me Too, after Black Lives Matter. But back then, I wasn't very good at identifying those social

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cues, and I just kind of brushed all away as like, "Oh, I guess my English wasn't that good, so it's just, they're not trying to talk to me, and that's fine." And in a way, maybe that actually, on the contrary, made my life slightly

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easier. I–I don't know if I would have been able to deal with that, like, with ease, if I know everything, in terms of what's going on. So that–that was kind of my experience with RISD. Yeah. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

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And if you feel comfortable, would you be able to, like, describe any memories that stand out? About, like, those subtle–subtle discriminations that you experienced? Yeah, I remember really vividly there was because I got that internship at Google

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ATAP. And I was pretty sure because I was, you know, in Microsoft Research Asia, I was a technical student. And I have, like, a portfolio that is combining science and art, even though it's not super mature, but at the time,

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it was interesting. And I was a hard-working kid, so I was really excited when I got the internship. I told one friend of mine. He was really nice and supportive.

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So, during a lunch, a bunch of us were sitting there, and then that friend, he was like, "Oh my God, it's so exciting. You're going to be living in California for the summertime." And I said, "Yes, I've never been.

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I'm really excited." And then another student who was my year and who's actually a couple years older than me, he's Canadian, and he was like, "Well, why are you going to California?" And I said, "Oh, I got an internship." And my other friend,

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who was very nice, said, "Yeah, that's so cool because she got into Google." And then this Canadian guy literally stand up and just left the table, did not say anything. And, like, I don't know what's going on, but we just keep eating and talking.

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And then two minutes later, he came back with no pretext. And the first thing he was able to say out of his mouth was like, "How did you get the internship?" in a very judgmental way.

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And it was really shocking. But also, at the same time, I was like, "Well, I applied, I was interviewed, and I got it." Like, what else do you expect me to answer to this question?

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So that-that was, like, a very vivid moment that I found it to be almost hilarious how, like, upset he was and how absurd his question were, also. Yeah, that–that definitely is a ridiculous question to ask. [XL: [laughs]]

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I guess, do you have any advice for, like, other young adults who are planning to immigrate to a new country and set up a new life? Yeah, I-I feel, like, sometimes, naivete might be good. Looking back, I think when I was much younger,

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if I have to process everything with full awareness, it might be really difficult. On the contrary, because I was very much focused on my

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coursework, I was very much just not knowing the social cues enough to identify certain kind of discrimination. I was able to concentrate on my life and my–my

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happiness, and finding people that I just genuinely enjoy my time with. And I think slowly, slowly, as I grew older, I get more confidence. I was also more aware of the dynamics around me,

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and I was able to process the emotions and be able to, like, talk to people with different tools, emotional tools. So, I think somehow, maybe the advice is to not push it too hard.

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Because there is certain strengths that we have that needs to be built throughout the time. And if we, like, push ourselves too hard, it might break us. I see. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that.

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And then I guess, we've already been kind of covering post-college education, but, just to go back to RISD for a second, what were some defining moments you had there? And how would you say that the MFA program helped to push you to grow as an artist?

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Yeah, the part I was really struggling at the beginning with that any homework was to just, to make art, and there's really isn't a limit on what you can do. And I never experienced that, and there's no correct answer.

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So, for the first year, I was really struggling in terms of what I should do. And somehow I think in the second year, it just clicked for me. There are certain things I really feel strongly about,

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and I start making works that I love. And I felt pleasure in creating them. And I think that's the–the moment that I know, like, I like what I'm doing, and this is amazing.

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There was two works that I particularly enjoyed at the end of my RISD time. And I make two—the both pieces within, like, six months, I think. And that those two works,

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I think even nowadays, are still guiding, or you can see how they are connected with questions and interests that I still have nowadays. And I think that was really the beginning of my artistic practice.

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So, I don't know whether I learned much in terms of how to be an artist professionally. I think lots of people already passed that point. When they went to RISD, they were just trying to be a professional

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artist, you know, they're like in their advanced degree. But for me, I was more, like, just feeling dumped into the situation. So, that was more, like, me just realizing I like art.

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So lots of the more practical aspect of being an artist was really kind of aftermath, like, I learned them while I was, like, already graduated or living in New York. It was very interesting that I had this rather different path

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compared to lots of my colleagues and friends. Yeah, it sounds, like, it was a good opportunity for you to kind of just explore a bit, and then also kind of lay the foundations for the themes that you would explore later as well, which is really interesting.

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I guess another question I have is how you would compare and contrast the education that you received in the US versus in China. Well, all my US education was in grad school, so that's already very different because they are very much like

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project-based. However, I did take undergrad classes when I was in MIT. The part about it was also—well, I took some classes, I think

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was, like, generally considered really, really difficult in MIT. I don't know why I decided to torture myself that way, but I think the part I found really helpful was that there are a lot more hands-on opportunities in the US for undergrads.

00:33:09.140 - 00:33:24.230

But also because I, by then, I was older, and I was already making works. So, when I was choosing classes, I was picking out things that I have a, like, really clear idea about what I want to learn from it,

00:33:24.230 - 00:33:41.060

rather than just following the curriculum. So, I was feeling much more determined in terms of what I want to do. I think that's not necessarily just about education system itself, but also where I was as a person who wants to kind

00:33:41.060 - 00:33:58.810

of craft my own learning journey versus, like, me just taking classes as it was ascribed to me when I was 18 or something.

00:34:00.300 - 00:34:16.050

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess, yeah, about MIT, could you tell us more about your education and your projects there and their Media Arts and Sciences program? Yeah, so MIT Media Lab was my dream school in undergrad.

00:34:16.080 - 00:34:33.000

I applied it after my undergrad, but I didn't get in. It was super competitive. Everyone was fully funded. I remember the year I applied for my group, there was like

00:34:33.300 - 00:34:53.330

350 applications, and the–the professor only took two students. For me, that was the pinnacle institution for people who want to create something that is at an intersection of art, design, technology, and science.

00:34:55.220 - 00:35:14.520

And I was following every single project from the lab when I was in undergrad and just, like, dreamed about going there. But my coursework—and I don't think anyone graduated from undergrad in my university

00:35:14.520 - 00:35:31.260

ever went to MIT Media Lab directly. So like, it was just, like, almost impossible to get in. So, when I got admitted two years later, I was over the moon. And my professor was Pattie Maes.

00:35:31.260 - 00:35:49.020

She led the fluid interfaces group in the lab. Our group was very much about—then, about, like, human augmentation and thinking about variable devices. Thinking about how a digital system could create this fluidic

00:35:49.020 - 00:36:09.240

interface that connects the conscious and the desire and emotion and feelings of a person, the user, with the mass network, intelligent systems on the other side. Which can be the computer, which can be the sensor networks,

00:36:09.240 - 00:36:25.650

which can be any form of data and information. So, when I was in MIT, I already had the RISD experience, so I was very much kind of, like, the "artist" person. So, my

00:36:25.650 - 00:36:47.220

thesis was called "Inwards to Outwards," and I was particularly interested in how variable systems could alter the perception of selves in individuals. So, it's a research that is combining cognitive

00:36:47.220 - 00:37:06.450

science, computer science, and really looking at behavior changes. So, I designed, for example, a device that play back a falsified breathing sound through bone conduction, where you are also just doing your

00:37:06.450 - 00:37:21.540

daily to—like, daily activities. But I manipulate how you would hear the breathing sound, and then to, like, make it sound harsher or calmer, and then in order to make people feel more excited or calmer than they

00:37:21.540 - 00:37:35.930

actually are. I was very interested in how much of the individual was able to perceive or know how themselves are, versus, like, getting information from the world. It is a time when people were very obsessed with,

00:37:35.930 - 00:37:51.980

like, quantified self. And I was interested in that, too, but thinking about how we are alienating those data towards digital gadgets rather than be able to develop a better understanding of our own body.

00:37:51.980 - 00:38:09.200

So, another project we did is, like, instead of, like, variable watch, we want to use, like, chemical active sensing tattoos that can react to different body liquids, such as glucose, sodiums,

00:38:09.350 - 00:38:24.110

or pH. So, it's a little like Chinese medicine, like, you see your own face and see your own body in order to know what's going on with you, rather than, like, relying on instrumentation. So, it's kind of, like, technology, but also there is an underlying

00:38:24.110 - 00:38:43.280

of philosophies about how humans shall be able to adapt and understand themselves, in this world that technology is constantly mediating our relationship with ourselves. So, I'm, like, I was very proud of the thesis because I think

00:38:43.280 - 00:38:56.000

it was both technical but also has storytelling and has philosophies. I made different, like three different projects in one thesis. And looking back, I was like, wow, well done. Like, in two years, that was a lot of work. [laughs]

00:38:57.290 - 00:39:08.270

Yeah, that sounds like an amazing thesis, and it [XL: Thank you.] sounds like it blended together a lot of different things. So, you mentioned, like, you used like bone vibrations? Bone conduction speakers.

00:39:08.270 - 00:39:19.100

Bone conduction. Oh okay, okay. Could you explain, like, how exactly that works? Well, bone conduct–bone conduction speakers are essentially speakers that's, like, connecting to your bone.

00:39:19.100 - 00:39:37.940

That's, like, how, like, Beethoven used to hear when he lost his hearing. So, that's–that's very common, actually, in, like, different devices when people use—for assistive technology. So, they are, like, this little transducers that are,

00:39:37.940 - 00:39:50.990

like, very closely attached to the collar bone, next to your ear. And then you can just play sounds through it. Don't—they don't sound as nicely as, like a proper speaker, but they can produce pretty

00:39:52.160 - 00:40:09.080

recognizable sound, already. And it felt like more intimate because you hear the sounds through your bones rather than the air. So, it felt like something coming from yourself. I see. Yeah, that's really cool. I-I've never heard of that–that before.

00:40:10.280 - 00:40:28.010

I guess, speaking more about, like, human augmentation and wearable devices that you touched on earlier, I saw that in 2016 when you were pursuing your MS, you participated in Victoria Modesta's Music Tech Festival in Berlin, where you worked with a team to allow her to control her music and her

00:40:28.010 - 00:40:42.050

show lights by moving her limbs and speaking and even by her brain signals. So, would you mind describing this performance more in depth, and then also speak on the work that went into producing it? Yeah, that was, like, a really fun collaboration because Victoria

00:40:42.050 - 00:40:57.950

was then, like, a director, fellow of the Media Lab. So, we met, and my collaborator Katia Vega—she's actually right now a professor in UC Davis—her work was all about skin interfaces and using the skin and conductive threads and different kind of materials to,

00:40:57.950 - 00:41:15.520

like, create soft electronics to activate different devices. So, we just work together, and then we kind of create this kind of, like, prosthesis that is, like, applied on her body because Victoria herself is, like, I would say, a very much a cyborg.

00:41:15.520 - 00:41:30.820

After her leg was amputated, she used that as a way to talk about disability as empowerment. So, we, like, connected different kind of like lights and sensors and conductive threads and applied it on her

00:41:30.820 - 00:41:42.850

body. So, as she was giving a show, she was able to, like, move her fingers and activate sensors and then, like, control the music. It was like a quick hackathon kind of project because,

00:41:42.850 - 00:41:58.330

like, it was just like, we want to try something for the festival. At the time, I have to say I don't have much, like, production experience. So for me, I feel like now looking back, it was very much a student

00:41:58.330 - 00:42:15.950

project, but we really end up being good friends now. Me, Victoria and Katia—we're all—like, still are good friends. We kept in touch. Yeah. That's awesome. It sounds like a very cool production nonetheless.

00:42:15.950 - 00:42:32.130

I guess moving on to career, over the years, you have built a super impressive career that clearly reflects your passion for both art and science. And as the arts curator in the Space Exploration Initiative at MIT Media Lab for the past six years, could you describe your roles and

00:42:32.130 - 00:42:47.310

responsibilities and what a typical week in your life might look like when you're working there? Well, this job is very much a part-time job and slowly actually has been decreasing because I was able to establish programs that can

00:42:47.310 - 00:43:02.670

automatically run by themselves. But it really started because my classmate back then, from my cohort of the year in the media lab, Ariel Ekblaw, she was the founder of the Space Exploration Initiative,

00:43:02.670 - 00:43:17.040

and she was campaigning for such an initiative back then. And I was like, "Oh my God, this is so cool. I have to support you." So, we end up talking and then my interest was very much around cosmology and how art plays a role in

00:43:17.070 - 00:43:32.220

that space exploration and narrative of that science fiction-like storytelling. So, we end up, like, joining forces. And most of my work in the initiative was to support kind of the cultural

00:43:32.220 - 00:43:43.950

production side of things. So, I curate exhibitions from the research projects that we have in the initiative. I help students to, like, conceptualize their work if they want to make

00:43:43.950 - 00:43:58.860

it more artistic or, like, give them advices on how to do documentations. I also help with organizing artist panels or, like, inviting visiting artists to MIT.

00:43:58.860 - 00:44:16.020

But again, it's like a part time job, so it's not, like, super heavy for me to be able to keep that going while producing my own work. And in the meantime, I think being able to get involved with community and

00:44:16.020 - 00:44:29.910

being able to use this role to support artists who are also doing space art—it has been, like, really fulfilling. And we kind of grow this community slowly altogether for the past five years.

00:44:31.980 - 00:44:49.590

That's great. And speaking of space art, could you describe when you became interested in space and what draws you to it? For me, it was always about how one sees themselves, similar like my master thesis, but instead of,

00:44:49.590 - 00:45:05.910

like, individual physical experience, mediated by technology space, I think give like a much larger—like, a larger backdrop in terms of, like, what does it mean to be a human in–in this universe.

00:45:05.910 - 00:45:21.120

So, I officially started doing, like, very space art, like, looking kind of work because of the initiative. But I think there are threads of that previously in my work already, just like in art history.

00:45:21.120 - 00:45:37.830

I think if you look at the so-called space art, you cannot ignore the influence or the foundational work in, like, science fiction–science fiction, or looking at land art movements in the 60s, like,

00:45:37.830 - 00:45:50.190

ultimately it's about a planetary thinking. And that doesn't necessarily have to involve, like, a rocket going into space. Yeah, it's—that's a beautiful description.

00:45:50.550 - 00:46:05.760

And could you also tell us a bit about the Orbit Weaver device that you made and how you drew inspiration from spiders? I saw the photos on your website and they looked really cool. Thank you. I was very interested in spiders because

00:46:05.760 - 00:46:21.150

I just found them to be a really fascinating creature. I used to have a spider in my college. So, that work was really kind of, like, a project started because I was able to do the parabolic flight as part of the Space

00:46:21.150 - 00:46:36.720

Initiative, and the only thing I was like, "Well, if you're doing microgravity experiment, the most exciting thing is about mobility." And then what is the future of mobility in weightlessness? And I think the kind of biomimicry work that

00:46:36.720 - 00:46:52.560

naturally led me to looking at spiders and the way they construct, like, the—a web literally in three dimensional space. And I also realized, it makes a lot of sense to be a spider

00:46:52.560 - 00:47:08.710

woman in space because then you can just shoot a thread and pull yourself in because you don't really have to deal with gravity dragging you down. You just need a small initial force to–to, like, get the momentum going.

00:47:08.710 - 00:47:23.650

So, I designed the handheld device and essentially, like, trying to make myself into a spider woman, for that performance. But I think at the end of the day, for the work, it was less about being a spider woman,

00:47:23.650 - 00:47:39.730

but more a reflection from that experience. Because when I was flying and the second that I experienced weightlessness for the first time, it wasn't really like an uplifting hero moment like I was flying, become

00:47:39.730 - 00:47:53.530

Superman. It was more as if the floor beneath me is falling. And a sense of detachment. I think that's really what I've been, really,

00:47:54.160 - 00:48:11.260

touched by in terms of what it means to to–to be free and to free fall and this relationship between, like, in order to, like, ascend, you also always leave something behind you.

00:48:11.800 - 00:48:29.630

So, I think that was a very important moment in my body experience, but also philosophical moment to think about the verticality of space and what it means to be-to be weightlessness. What's really interesting. Thank you for sharing.

00:48:29.630 - 00:48:47.060

Yeah, I've always wanted to be in the anti-gravity chamber, so hearing that it kind of feels detached is–is really interesting. I guess, what is it like to work in the MIT Media Lab as an alumnus of the MAS program? And do you interact with any of the same people that you did during your

00:48:47.060 - 00:49:02.270

MS? Yeah, I did, because I left after Master and bunch of my friends stayed for PhD. So, they, you know, have to stay for like four more years. So, we're still seeing each other all around.

00:49:02.720 - 00:49:19.610

But at the same time, of course, I end up knowing new students. But it depends, because I am more and more, you know, busy with my own practice, I moved to London, so, I'm not as around in

00:49:19.610 - 00:49:35.750

Boston as I used to be, but I'm always open to talk to new students. So, I also give lectures at their classes. So, sometimes the students would, like, ring me up and ask for advice, so I'm always happy to talk to them.

00:49:37.980 - 00:49:55.650

I think that's great. And I guess, as my last directly space-related question: so, last year you had a solo exhibition called Seedlings and Offsprings, which brings together an entire range of different mediums and themes. And I was especially struck by that idea of your wisdom tooth floating in space.

00:49:56.220 - 00:50:12.240

Could you give a brief description of the exhibition as a whole and then also the inspiration behind particular components of it? I think that work, the exhibition, was like, kind of connecting some of the early works, like Living Distance about the wisdom tooth,

00:50:12.240 - 00:50:28.200

as well as the new piece, the Cryo series, where I was more talking about egg freezing and cryogenics as technology and sharing this manipulation of time. And what does it mean for, like, production and reproduction?

00:50:29.260 - 00:50:48.550

And in terms of the wisdom tooth work, it was really, like, melancholy, I think. Back then, I think the work was a little bit like a tribute to a very important anime to

00:50:48.550 - 00:51:04.930

myself called Evangelion New Genesis. That the story was about teenage kids that rides robots and fighting aliens, but ultimately very existential and psychoanalysis. I think there's a question always like,

00:51:04.930 - 00:51:23.310

what do we become? And the massive existence of universe, unlike the fragile being that we are as human individuals. So for me, I think Living Distance was a reflection on that,

00:51:23.310 - 00:51:39.750

but also at the same time, because the two traveled into space that came back, I was very interested in that journey and the gesture of like, sending something up to the sky, I think is a good wish, but also is a kind of like a transformation.

00:51:39.750 - 00:51:53.490

After I finished the film—I think because it's like a two channel film along with the sculpture and the VR—like, a friend of mine was mentioning, there is a sense of death and homeless–homesickness in it.

00:51:53.490 - 00:52:12.270

And I very much agree with that because I think when people leave their hometown again and again, it's not just transcendence into a bigger, better world. It's just like if humanity ever leave the planet, there's aspect of being a human going to be

00:52:12.360 - 00:52:24.600

destroyed by the action itself. So, there's always death associated with that journey— the voyage. So, I think that's really what Living Distance was about as a work.

00:52:26.790 - 00:52:40.290

Yeah, it's really cool. I think the wisdom tooth was definitely a really interesting and, like, apt item to use. Even though I wouldn't have–I wouldn't have expected it, but it works really well. And then I guess, could you walk us through what your company,

00:52:40.290 - 00:52:53.320

Slow Intermediate LLC does? And your responsibilities as CEO and co-founder and then also, like, the various clients that you work with. Yeah. So, Slow Media is, like, the kind of branch,

00:52:53.320 - 00:53:12.600

or entity that takes on the production of my works. But as well as sometimes we take consulting or production projects for other big artists. We've worked with David Byrne, we've worked with like

00:53:12.600 - 00:53:30.500

different institutions such as The Shed in New York City. It was founded together with my partner, Gershon Dublon. And we are very interested in this moment of nature and subjectivity and

00:53:30.500 - 00:53:47.300

technology where, like, we seem to have this fleeting experience of time that everything happening so fast yet, like, nothing stays. So, we want to create experiences that are empowered by technology,

00:53:47.300 - 00:54:01.380

but really still time, like we're stretched time at a particular moment. For example, how can we create experiences that people is able to connect with nature better?

00:54:01.410 - 00:54:18.090

How can we create experiences people can delve into their subjectivity? So, it's very much like a design and technology but for aesthetic purpose. So, we use Slow Media as an entity to be able to work with other

00:54:18.090 - 00:54:33.750

people and hiring people. So, it just has been really exciting to, like, combine engineering and design into art making. But now my partner is working at

00:54:33.750 - 00:54:48.000

a speaker company called Sonos as a research engineer, research scientist. So, he slowly, like, is disengaging. But we still have some projects at Slow Media. So, I'm, like, taking most of the workload.

00:54:48.000 - 00:55:01.470

But we have lots of collaborators in the company and we're still making like, films and productions. Yeah, cool. I really like that idea of playing with time and kind of stretching it out and also incorporating nature.

00:55:01.470 - 00:55:12.300

I think that's really cool. Just to go back one more time to the wisdom tooth, was there a specific reason why you chose to use the wisdom tooth, like, as opposed to another object or another part of yourself?

00:55:14.240 - 00:55:26.090

I remember, like, when we were kids, like, you know, my grandma would always say, like, if you've, like—if the wisdom tooth fall, if it's a top tooth, bury it under the ground.

00:55:26.090 - 00:55:38.900

If it's a bottom teeth, you threw it up to the ceiling for wishes. And that was the bottom wisdom tooth of mine. I think there is something really precious about such, like, an object that coming out of your body,

00:55:38.900 - 00:55:52.160

but like, it's hardened. It looks like a ceramic, but it's also entirely separate from the rest of your–your body is somehow only held by flesh, which is supposed to be soft.

00:55:52.160 - 00:56:11.030

I think there's something around that quite fascinating. And there's also history around, you know, Buddhism and, like the–the body and how they transform into pearls after they pass away and through incarnation.

00:56:11.030 - 00:56:26.880

So, I found tooth to be like a very symbolically concentrated form for, like, someone's spirit. I see. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of layers behind that choice.

00:56:26.880 - 00:56:41.340

And I like that that saying that your grandma said where you like, "toss it up." I guess you toss it all the way up to, like, the universe ceiling kind of [XL: Laughs]. Yeah. So, I guess moving on from space into your current work as the spring

00:56:41.340 - 00:56:57.630

2024 artist in residence of HAAA, our first artist in residence: what aspects of HAAA inspired you to come to Houston, and how would you compare or contrast your work with HAAA with other projects you have done, especially relative to your own Asian background?

00:56:58.460 - 00:57:15.890

Yeah, it's very interesting because I came to HAAA after my residency last year in San Antonio, where I was focusing on, you know, the history of oil production that is shared very much in Texas and in my own hometown. And then during that residency,

00:57:15.890 - 00:57:34.010

I was approached to do another residency in Houston, which is HAAA. And I was very pleased because, I actually came to Houston quite a couple of times previous– previously because of space exploration. So, I always went to, like,

00:57:34.010 - 00:57:49.970

the southeast part of the town. And this time, like, I was like, "Wow, it's a very different scene here in Houston." Rice University does not look like what I thought Houston is like. So, when I was approached to work with HAAA, I think I was generally

00:57:49.970 - 00:58:05.690

interested in, you know, the immigration stories, because for my grandparents, they moved to Xinjiang from Shandong also to, you know, essentially build the oil field in the remote, barren desert,

00:58:05.690 - 00:58:19.670

which is very much shared in the history of, like, Texas and how lots of Asian like immigrants came–came to be for, like, large infrastructure projects, no matter oil field or railway station, like railway construction.

00:58:20.360 - 00:58:38.160

So, that's why I was very interested in that history. But in the meantime I think I have this, like, fascination on Texas as a state because my experience with the United States was always bi-coastal,

00:58:38.160 - 00:58:52.710

either like California or New York. I think Texas is, like, another version of the US that I found fascinated by. But also, every time I came, I went to a different city and a different version of the story of Texas.

00:58:52.710 - 00:59:08.700

But somehow in a very interesting and twisted way, it's also similar to my own hometown. That is, like, the–the border of the country, has a very strong industrial background, lots of

00:59:08.700 - 00:59:24.540

immigrants. Very crude environment, very hot and deserty in some areas. So, I think I'm just overall interested in Texas as a state. And of course as Asian American, now,

00:59:24.540 - 00:59:44.230

after being in state for ten years, I slowly realized that I've acquired Asian-American as as a new identity. And there are many, many conversations that I have been involved with in our world or outside of it, to think about what does it

00:59:44.230 - 00:59:58.750

mean to do cultural production as Asian American. So, I think this particular residency is helping me personally a lot also, to process that transition moment of my life.

01:00:00.940 - 01:00:16.870

I see. And yeah, it's interesting to hear the connections between your hometown and–and in Texas and in multiple ways. And I know you touched on this during the intern meeting, but could you kind of express your perspectives on the combination of AI and

01:00:16.870 - 01:00:32.850

art, and then also how you're going to be using AI to–to further your project at HAAA. I think AI is really, really gonna revolutionize the society and how we interact with

01:00:32.850 - 01:00:50.490

the world. However, it is a tool that is currently owned by large corporations. So, for artists particularly, we instead of, like, rejecting it, we have to be able to at least understand what it means.

01:00:50.490 - 01:01:09.000

So, for this particular project, I'm interested in the use of large language models because the archives are amazing, yet it is impossible for individual to go through like 450 documents and to

01:01:09.000 - 01:01:24.120

actually just know what's going on. So, I could help us with that. And I'm very keen to use AI to identify certain events that happens in immigrant life because as I was reading

01:01:24.120 - 01:01:37.890

them one by one myself, I noticed that there are very, very, like, interesting shared events among the immigrants, such as arranged marriage for Indians, the war for the Vietnamese.

01:01:37.890 - 01:01:54.510

But even though they have shared that historical moment or cultural events, their individual choices led them to a very different path. So, I found that to be quite interesting and want an AI to help me identify those events and choices and thinking about,

01:01:54.960 - 01:02:14.770

like, interactive piece around that. Yeah, that's really interesting and I'm excited to see what comes of it. I guess what is your view on Houston's art scene relative to the city's diversity? And has the diversity affected, like, your plans for the art so

01:02:14.770 - 01:02:27.130

far? Well, I have been lucky because, you know, I'm Asian, so I'm close with Asian society, and I have many friends who are not necessarily American as well.

01:02:27.130 - 01:02:43.150

So, I also know, like, the Black artists, like, in Houston. But I think Houston art scene isn't as vibrant as New York, of course, because nowhere is. But it is very interesting because it has focused

01:02:43.150 - 01:02:58.470

on social practice and local contexts and successful projects such as Project Row House that are, like, really focusing on Black artists and communities, which I found quite inspiring.

01:02:59.280 - 01:03:18.790

And Asia Society is putting up a big show for Xu Bing, who actually I know personally from Beijing. So, I feel like it's–it's such an exciting time to be in Houston because people are making efforts to connect with

01:03:18.790 - 01:03:35.050

Asian art, and I'm really looking forward to know more and see how my, you know, constant coming back to Texas somehow would be able to have more dialogue with the local artists.

01:03:37.580 - 01:03:52.340

Yeah, that's great and definitely a very exciting time for art in Houston. I guess moving on to some questions, some more general questions surrounding your art: how would you describe your artistic style, and do you have any artists role models who you look up to,

01:03:52.340 - 01:04:11.180

who—or who impacted your artistic journey? I think for my work, it's definitely a lot about this combination of a humanistic value at the core, yet embracing technology with a critical

01:04:11.180 - 01:04:29.690

eye to apply it in a way that materials can be manipulated. Structure aesthetics can be reflected on my background in mechanical engineering definitely show in my sculpture making. So, it is really

01:04:29.690 - 01:04:41.990

like–like a self-portrait. Ultimately, I think that's always what art is about. In terms of art inspiration— I like certain artists work, but I don't think artists should have any role models.

01:04:44.710 - 01:04:56.210

I see. That's interesting. Why do you–why do you believe that artists should not have role models? But then you just end up copying other. You should just do your own thing. I see. Yeah, that's a valid point.

01:04:57.350 - 01:05:10.240

I guess do you have a single favorite artwork that you've created over your career? It's always the most recent one. Currently I really like the Cryo series. I'm making more of it.

01:05:10.780 - 01:05:26.740

But I of course can identify certain pieces are more significant in my practice. But I don't know, lots of times, you know, like artists could have, like, a very strong opinions about a work being good or bad.

01:05:27.520 - 01:05:41.690

But you never know their cultural relevance until maybe, like, decades later. And I know you also touched on this during the intro meeting, but—or I guess you touched on like ways to handle feedback,

01:05:41.690 - 01:05:55.280

but do you recall any significant responses or feedbacks that you've received about your artwork that kind of stuck with you? And this could be, like, positive or, like, maybe something— Yeah, there's one professor, I don't even remember who that is taught me

01:05:55.280 - 01:06:05.630

about, like, you know, when you present some work, he always like to say, when I was a student, at least, I was like, "Oh, this is a work in progress and blah, blah, blah." And he was like, "No, there's no work in progress.

01:06:05.630 - 01:06:16.870

This is what you can make at this point with your ability the best you are, the only thing you need to do is to make the next one. There's no point of fixing up." I was like, "Wow, that was a really good point".

01:06:16.870 - 01:06:34.310

Because I see so many people, no matter what they do, they kind of get stuck with it, "Oh, I can make this thing better," rather than just like, "No, this is it. This is the best I am at this point of my life. The only better thing I'll be–be able to make is just the next one." And just keep moving

01:06:34.310 - 01:06:49.750

on. I see. Yeah, it's it's always, an interesting experience to look back at past artworks that you've done and, kind of see the growth happen. I guess, what is your favorite and also least favorite thing about a career in art?

01:06:49.750 - 01:07:04.770

And is there any advice that you would give to aspiring artists? Well, I think a lot of freedom that I very much enjoy. I practically can do pretty much whatever I want to. The part that I don't like about it is, like,

01:07:04.770 - 01:07:20.010

lots of assumptions about being an artist, because the way art is being presented historically, people just assume you're making decorative work, making something look pretty. However, I think nowadays artist's role is so expansive.

01:07:20.010 - 01:07:35.790

You can be a philosopher, you can be an engineer, like, you know, the transdisciplinary aspect of it is not even, like, started yet. I think, in my opinion. I think my—if okay, if there's a role model, I want to be like

01:07:36.240 - 01:07:52.200

DaVinci because I think that's what a person should be like in terms of their knowledge and the way they relate to the world. Yet I'm frustrated sometimes by the way people think what artists, especially women artists, can do.

01:07:52.680 - 01:08:11.960

So, I feel like sometimes I'm always forced to tell people that I graduated from MIT and I'm an engineer and et cetera. Yeah, I see that. That's a really interesting kind of, like, struggle–struggle to have. I guess moving on to our last section surrounding identity.

01:08:12.200 - 01:08:33.610

Do you have something that you are most proud of in your life so far? And then also, where and when do you feel most at home? I think I'm very proud about how I am very adaptive. I think I can give up on

01:08:33.610 - 01:08:52.000

things if they no longer help me or the way I develop. I'm not fixated on things in the way that I think ultimately, sometimes it's about ego.

01:08:52.000 - 01:09:08.760

I think my–my ego in terms of like, this has to be in one way or the other can be often tossed away. But yet, that also doesn't mean that I'm not confident on myself.

01:09:08.760 - 01:09:27.040

So, there's a combination of that. And I think for me, I am always at ease when I'm with my friends and partners because I am not really living in one place because I'm traveling quite a bit.

01:09:27.040 - 01:09:40.190

So, I found a lot of comfort in, like, intimate relationships. Yeah. That's great. Do you have any, like, hobbies that you would like to do with your friends and family?

01:09:41.510 - 01:09:55.430

Well, I like to—I don't like to cook, I like to eat. So, if my friends, they can cook, that'd be great. I like outdoor activities, so skiing would be great. I like horseback riding.

01:09:56.000 - 01:10:12.230

I don't like drinking that much, so I always try to do things that it's fun, you know, someone can learn stuff together. When I was in Houston, I went to tango classes with my friends. I just found those kind of things really much more interesting and

01:10:12.230 - 01:10:27.810

enjoyable than drinking, partying, et cetera. Yeah. Tango classes sound fun. I think Indre, our program administrator, she–she–she teach–she taught a

01:10:28.050 - 01:10:39.540

one tango class, like, about— Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she actually invited me to both of the tango classes. I found it really fun. Yeah. That's so cool. So, how often do you visit China?

01:10:39.540 - 01:10:53.840

And then could you also state how you identify yourself ethnically? Well, I'm a Han Chinese. And I go back twice a year. Last year I went back twice a year last year,

01:10:53.840 - 01:11:10.820

but previously it was shorter because of Covid. But I was also in China for quite some time, for, like almost three months or more than that in 2021 because I was doing an exhibition. So, right now I'm really working on creating more opportunities in

01:11:10.820 - 01:11:26.320

Asia, so I can like actually work when I'm in Asia. And then the main goal is to be able to, like, have my parents around basically. I see. So, both of your parents still live in China?

01:11:28.680 - 01:11:41.130

[XL: Mhm.] And then I guess, what is your work-life balance, like, as a full-time artist? So, since art is both your job and your passion, where do you kind of draw the line between art versus other aspects of your life,

01:11:41.130 - 01:11:55.200

like family or hobbies? I think family and hobby is pretty obvious because you're not, like, making anything, but, anything other than hobby and family, or just hanging out, I

01:11:55.230 - 01:12:11.320

consider it to be a process of learning. I'm taking a road trip to Brownsville next week. And I think that's very much a research trip because I'm going to take taking footages around and looking around, but also I'm very much enjoy it.

01:12:11.320 - 01:12:26.860

So, it is, like, nice in that way as an artist. If you keep an acute ear and an open eye, everything become your material. But at the same time, there is a proper process of making art.

01:12:26.860 - 01:12:35.470

There is a studio practice. You actually have to, like, dive into it. You don't just like, "Oh, I'm sketching around". I think art is very, very serious.

01:12:35.860 - 01:12:52.490

A lot of reading and craft and time invested into it. So, when I'm in London and even now, I think I'm actually much more of a 9 to 5 kind of person. So, I would go to the studio every day on time,

01:12:52.490 - 01:13:10.140

just, like, you're going to work. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think, like, both constantly observing and then also making intentional efforts to practice are both important parts of art. And for my last question, if you could go back in time and give a piece

01:13:10.140 - 01:13:27.210

of advice to your younger self, what would you say? Here's a funny one. There's the funny answer and a sincere answer. The funny one is that I would like to go back to myself in freshmen and tell her to buy some Bitcoin, but I don't think that's going to happen.

01:13:27.810 - 01:13:43.780

More sincere one, I think...I might tell myself, when I was in college to be more open to

01:13:43.780 - 01:13:58.240

the world, I think. I spent a lot of time on campus, but Beijing is much bigger than that. I really wished I could have go to more like, or any, like, music events, see more exhibitions,

01:13:58.240 - 01:14:15.940

you know. I think at the time I was mostly in college and on campus, and I feel like I missed out a very important era of Chinese cultural moments in–in–in Beijing at the time is no longer there.

01:14:15.940 - 01:14:31.360

So, I felt like a bit, like, sad that I missed that out. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And that's all the questions I have prepared for this interview, but is there anything else you want to add?

01:14:32.510 - 01:14:40.760

No, I think you went through most of it. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to do this interview and for

01:14:40.760 - 01:14:47.660

sharing your wonderful perspectives and experiences, and I think both your art and your story are super inspiring. So, thank you so much. Thank you.