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This is interview number one 39 um Mr WC Martin tape 12 side one today is uh July 8th 1969. The time is 10 a.m. 10:30 a.m. now set it down to zero. No, Doctor Martin, if you would just uh give me your name and address and

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let me see how this life study is going to work out for your voice pattern. William Martin 2148 Addison used to. I think that'll work out just fine. Um I was going over some of the things that we'd like to uh get from you in this

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uh in this conversation, Doctor Martin, I mentioned that um we're interested in getting your analysis of the events of the that took place during the presidential selection crisis of last February and uh finding out what your sources of information were and what you consider to be

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some of the uh significant unanswered questions, questions perhaps that you would be interested in putting to the important participants if you had an opportunity to make a private research uh project out of this, in your own field, for instance, to start off on this. Uh Well,

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you can start where you want. But, uh, do you recall how you first got, uh, information, uh, about the boards having selected a president? Yes, in the morning of whatever afternoon it was Monday Friday, Friday on, on that morning, which happened to be the days I,

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the day I had classes I, uh, secretaries were buzzing about giving inside information as to whether it was John Connolly or Lyndon Johnson, who was going to be president. And I, as this was my first year of teaching, I had a class at one o'clock and

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I had three hours which I gave to that class rather than uh than speculate on who's going to be the president. Then I guess my first information was a phone call from my wife who said she had heard over the television that Masterson had been chosen

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when I got to class at one o'clock. Uh, one of my students, a senior student, the class is composed primarily a sophomore of an introductory sociology course. This is a senior student who had no, he had not lived in Hanson College. But, uh, he had been

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here when uh Professor Masterson was at rise and said, did you hear who's going to be selected? And I said, well, I, I heard most recently that it was, uh, uh, Professor Masterson about whom I knew nothing except that he was formerly of the history department.

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And it seemed to me that might be a perfectly acceptable choice. I had never heard his name until that day. So I had no, no previous prejudices one way or the other. And he said that would be a bad thing. This student I would write would

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list as being a rather conservative student. Certainly was not, did not count himself among the radicals. In fact, on one of the one of the votes that was taken at a later the Freeland incident, he was one of two people voting against the majority which were

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being uh led by more uh liberal elements. So I, he was, was, uh in this particular case, was opposed to the selection and the method of selection, but uh by no means was a student who simply leap forward at every opportunity to, to, to demonstrate a

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protest. And I consider his uh viewpoint to be reasonably uh balanced and considered. And he said he wrote, he said that Masterson had been something of an autocrat of that, Hansen and in his classes that he uh shut doors shortly after classes began and so forth

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like this. Well, this uh I, I tend to be somewhat easy going. So I didn't, I thought probably Mr Masterson's not the kind of person that I would uh choose for a, a closest friend. But on the other hand, I don't know that much about it.

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It couldn't be that the student got it from someone else that was mia fired. And really, I had frankly not thought too much about the selection procedures being at that time being violated at all because, uh, I just hadn't known we were that close to getting

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a president. I had remembered the voting on, uh, various people. It happened, I was a neighbor of, uh Z Salzburg and, uh, was kind of interested that, that, that the, of the 1015 faculty members I knew one of them happened. You know, I followed the election

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with some of these of these electors or suggests, uh because I knew somebody who was making it to the finals of the very few people I knew at the university at this time. So I was well aware of the committee but frankly had not thought a

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lot about it. I indicated I was much more concerned with uh finishing my thesis and meeting black six times a week, which was a full, full week. Uh after class, I walked outside and some students um walked by with a sign saying, be sure to attend

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the faculty meeting at three o'clock, I meet outside the chemistry building at three or four, whatever time it was. Anyway, a president has been chosen and you had nothing to do with it. So I decided, well, I certainly wouldn't want to miss this and, uh went

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to the, uh with then I didn't, I didn't think about it anymore until I went to the meeting, which of course, wasn't long after that at the meeting. I took a position at the back of the auditorium. Partly because, uh, I, uh, got there late but

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also partly because at meetings like this, I like taking positions at the back of the auditory so I can watch everybody. And one of the requisites of the sociologist is he shamelessly curious? So I wanted to watch what different people would do. And the, when the

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meeting began, II, I was unaware, frankly of the level of hostility that would be there. But uh it was certainly quite obvious at the, uh the time I was sitting behind Doctor Vandever again by accident and I didn't really know who he was. I and had

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him pointed out to me oh, first week of school and I had him mixed up with another professor, but I about narrowed it down. That probably was he. And before the meeting was over, I was convinced it was he since he was voting and reacting in

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uh differently than the other than most than the majority on that particular day at the meeting. Of course, the, the sequence of events is well well known and I may reconstruct them improperly, but I can give you something of my response as to what to what

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happened. Um, first that I remember was Mr Teague. He was very close to the first, if not the very first speaker. And uh I had the impression he was a bit uncomfortable. In fact, he was quite uncomfortable. I got the A s, a sense that at

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the time that, uh, so at that, at that point, I didn't really know that it only came out later what, what the, what procedures had been used and what procedures had been used in the eyes of the committee violated. I'm, it struck me that they had

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gone about it in a poor way that given our current situation, I mean, on campuses in general, to which I'm somewhat sensitive, I guess, I guess most people are. I felt that uh they had not been, the board had not been sensitive to this, that, that

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uh much could have been avoided. I later felt it could, you could have been avoided by, it's not going about it this way that apparently what they were thinking was, well, let's come in here with a, someone used the term had used the term a man

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with a strong hand on the tiller. And uh it struck me that that was an unwise way to, to approach it. Not that you didn't need a strong man, but a, a strong man at this particular time is not necessarily the man who says, uh I

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got my hand on the tiller and the rest of you people don't like the boat and they get out. Uh But I, I felt like that this was a lamentable lack of understanding on the part of the board, a lack of understanding of the climate of

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faculty and students, whether or not that climate is justified quite apart from, from that question. Uh And I think that one can my own position be somewhere between the, the position that the faculty should run everything and uh that they should have no say in it.

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I personally don't want to run anything. Probably will have to give my place on most committees to any students who wanna have more power. But uh uh any case I was, I felt like they were, it was almost inevitable that uh something was going to happen

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critical and uh thought about the fact that what seemed to me to be a fact, at least that here were men on the board, obviously intelligent men and who were successful men and who by no means could be considered stupid or naive or, and in many

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respects, I'm sure have a pragmatic kind of sense and a technical kind of sense that is as fully as competent as any of the faculty members. But, uh still who had misread this particular, who had misread the climate, not out of, I felt out of malice

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and I still stick to that. They hadn't, they were not saying, you know, how can we, how can we do something that's, uh, that will wreck the university or threaten the university structure? But, uh then I got, I got somewhat amused at the, the uh proceedings

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because at the time, II, I sort of felt like, well, and maybe this was naive, the more I think about it, the more I think perhaps it was naive on my part. But I figured however it turns out I can probably will not greatly affect, uh,

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not just me, I don't mean to say that selfishly. It probably won't greatly affect the, uh, the academic part of the situation. And if people would let it, it probably wouldn't affect much of, you know, that, uh, schools are quite capable of carrying on. If the

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president does some of the things that he is, uh, does most of the things that he's had to do to set some kind of general tone and to, uh, raise money and to be a liaison with board and with the, with community, I don't know, rethinking

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all of this right now and I'm not sure that the president doesn't have a more important role than I have, uh, assigned to him in my own previous thinking. But, uh, I'm just still not, not sure. So I wouldn't care to reach any conclusion on that.

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Uh, as the, the various conversation continued in the meeting, I became more and more, it became increasingly clear to me that the board had not acted as it should have. I feel it should have in overriding the and not accepting. How should I put it? The

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fact that Masterson was considered and not passed on to the board seemed to be clear that the committee, uh, hadn't just overlooked him and that if the board was going to pick him, I felt they had a clear obligation to come back to the committee and

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to discuss it. It also became quite clear in the meeting that a number of people whom I had come to respect mainly through name where, uh, not at all sympathetic to the, the procedures. I frankly was astounded at the number and the particular names of the

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men who had signed the petition, I would not have signed it because I didn't know enough about what had gone on. I didn't have it happened that I didn't have an opportunity. No one presented me with it, but uh I wouldn't have signed it simply because

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I didn't know Masterson and, and I'm reluctant to put my name to things that I'm not somewhat sure of. Uh when the meeting was over, I would have signed that I had to, would have had objected to the procedures used. Uh I still would have reserved

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judgment on Mr Masterson at the time feeling that I just wasn't confident. It was quite obvious to me that he had ruffled a number of people. Uh Given that uh fact I would have figured, well, there's an o there's, you know, fair chance that uh maybe

00:14:26.750 - 00:14:43.960

he was somewhat at fault in these because these, some of these men looked to me like my own dealings with him that they were not the sort of people who would have been, they were not petty men. Uh, but I wasn't, you know, I still felt

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like it, I just don't know, it could be it to that. Uh, it was clear there was a lot of opposition, not only to the, to the procedure but to the man himself. And so I just waited on that. It happened that since I had not

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finished my dissertation at the time, but I didn't have, since, uh, since I hadn't finished at the time, I was, uh, my rank was instructor and I did not have the right to vote. So I was saved any sort of, uh, personal moral decision on that

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particular point. The students outside were being given various kinds of signs. I was impressed by Warren scar's ability to, to deal with the situation. I, I never really got to know him, just met him and that's about all. But, uh, he struck me as a several

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cuts above the average human being. I'm really much impressed by the way he handled things frankly. And then after the meeting that day, as we walked out, I heard Professor Van Dever say to this particular student who had the senior that I talked to earlier ask

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him what he thought and he said, he thought that we made damn fools of ourselves and that Masterson was a good man. We ought to be glad to get him. Oh, that, uh, sort of concluded that particular day. We talked and, uh, with the other professors

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and department heads and so forth on the, on Saturday, I, somehow I had, I lived out several miles from school that time. We've since moved in closer and I didn't know about the meeting at noon. I walked out of my office at lunchtime to go get

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something to eat in there with 1100 people gathered in the streets. And, uh, so I went down to that and that's when Mr Professor Masterson spoke to the, to the group. I was impressed by the demeanor of the students and uh frankly had a good deal

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of pride in the university at the time that they were able both to register protest, which I thought they had every right to do, but that they were behaving as basically decent human beings thing. And I think it's uh lamentable when, when uh protest measures become

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such. Um and sometimes I think the stronger protesters call for than that. But when I sort of believe you ought not to use any more any more than you have to so that when it's all over with, you still can look back on having behaved that

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you can still live with yourself as a decent human being. At the meeting after uh I heard various students and various faculty members, students gathered around different, their favorite faculty members. I heard some statements which I thought at that time were frankly irresponsible. I didn't uh

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felt like at that time, talk of a strike and wrecking the university or break, you know, uh, slowing it down or stopping it where, uh, uncalled for. And I said so to several students. Although, uh, I didn't have any great flock of students around me. I

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was only a month into my second semester and had only 17 students the first semester. So I wasn't, uh, a notorious campus figure. Uh, but when, uh, Doctor Masterson came over to speak to the crowd, I was quite curious as to how he would handle things.

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And frankly, at that point, I, I decided in my own mind after he's spoken that he was not a man for our time that he was that for him to have been president would have been most unfortunate. Uh I thought although I understood why he did

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it to stand up on the little parapet there with a bullhorn, he was given the bullhorn. This was the only way he could have addressed the crowd I felt. And this is not just hindsight. I felt immediately at the time that if he were sensitive to

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what's going on here, he would absolutely refused to talk to a bullhorn that the image, the symbolic aspect of this was just deadly. He stood there looking, I, I felt belligerent. I had again, I had been open to him completely before as far as, as open

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as I could be having heard some bad things, but I'd also heard some quite good things about him. Uh, and, uh, even people who had talked with him in the last 12 hours who had a, I had received, you know, had felt that he had behaved

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quite well with all of this and that he was, this would be a good thing for the college, all things, all things considered. And I felt when he got up to speak that he looked belligerent and his opening words were excessively hostile. Given the situation when

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he said, you know, I have been elected by legal measures, the board had the right to do this and I intend to remain as president. Um All those things were undoubtedly true. But, uh, goodness, I, I think he, I frankly think that he wrecked his own

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cause at that particular moment, I felt there was a, a pretty fair chance, you know, even in the, in the assumption that the vote had just been something like 900 to 7 or 1100 to 7 or something like that, 900 to 7. And then it was

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me, the in effect, it was said, well, that, that just represents a minority student body and presumably, if they'd all been there, the boat would have been 1107 to 951. Uh, which has, I have to deal somewhat with statistics. I think that's probably an invalid inference.

00:21:08.339 - 00:21:28.140

But it seemed to me frankly that, uh, that was a crucial point. Because at that particular time, I don't think there's any question that Doctor Masterson lost this, the potential, he lost the neutral, the neutrals had I been in his position. And I, again, I thought

00:21:28.150 - 00:21:45.099

about it at the moment and, uh I felt like the thing to have done would have been to say this is an impossible situation here for me to stand here and talk to you through a bullhorn. Uh I'm in a tough spot. I understand your, your

00:21:45.109 - 00:21:58.180

position. This isn't gonna work for me to shout at you like this. Why don't we go to the chemistry building or the Hammond Hall and talk about it? And had I been in his position, I would have gone to one of those two buildings taking the

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student body with me or going back to the gym and talk to them for just as long as they wanted to talk. And then said, I, I am willing to uh to resign and go back over this again. I think that he would have gotten 80%

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of the vote frankly if he had done that. Oh, I believe his failure to do that showed that he, what would have tended to indicated that his own personality was such that in this particular time, a student unrest much which I think is justified and much

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which I think is unjustified and irresponsible. I think that he would have uh watched things repeatedly frankly. And I, I felt like at the time that I however, however qualified he may be an administrative, you know, the, the, the standard, more standard kind of things for

00:22:59.689 - 00:23:16.349

the particular situation that campuses are in. I think it very well might turn out badly, even such things as I, I can't, uh, when he said I can't, uh, I have to take this position. I've already resigned my other job and I have my family to

00:23:16.359 - 00:23:40.119

think about this, put him in a, in the role of a kind of pathetic figure which I doubt he plays very often, but uh did not gain sympathy from students. I personally prefer as a ideal college administrator. And this is not very original but Kingman Rooster

00:23:40.150 - 00:24:01.839

of Yale who will talk with students for a long time. Tell them your view will be taken seriously. We respect you. Uh But you must recognize that you do not have an equal vote in the governance of the university. And I think that uh I don't

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think it's necessary at all to take the position of the university as a democratic situation in which everybody has equal choice. You don't go to a hospital and tell a doctor where let's vote on where you cut uh there that I think it must be wrecked.

00:24:15.449 - 00:24:30.790

That essentially a university is something of an elitist organization where people who do not know, come to learn from those who know they're certainly, that's, that's the starkest version of it. They're certainly sharing and I learned a great deal from students and all that but I

00:24:30.800 - 00:24:47.369

think that, uh, it's not a completely equal process that, uh, there wouldn't be much point and a student taking a class from me in the sociology of religion if he already knew as much about it as I do, uh, are people going to just sit around

00:24:47.380 - 00:25:14.229

and give me his opinions on things all the time and not, and I think students essentially recognize this too. Uh, on Sunday I went to one of the meetings at, uh, one of the colleges and there, it seemed that most of what was gonna be said,

00:25:14.239 - 00:25:35.469

was said in the 1st 30 minutes. And then it was, uh, you know, the labored repetition that characterizes the wonderful democratic process carried on for the next hour and a half, which I, I'm perfectly accustomed to that and, and, uh, willing to, to, uh, to believe

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and, and affirm the value of everyone's having a chance to say the same thing until they all feel like it's been said adequately and they've been represented and it, in fact, have been represented. I don't, it's an inefficient process, but I shouldn't like to trade it.

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Uh, which meeting did you attend college? Meeting, Jones Jones College? And I felt there was a lot of, a lot of concern being shown for, uh, Doctor Masterson in his situation and others were not, not so concerned. I mean, they were more concerned for other aspects.

00:26:15.839 - 00:26:33.209

I don't mean they were not concerned for him but, uh, I don't remember that particular meeting as having been, having changed my attitude one way or the other. I felt like the confrontation the morning before had a pretty well. I, I felt like the, it's gonna

00:26:33.219 - 00:26:56.810

be trouble if he stays on, on Monday. I had one class and it was a small class, five or six people, a research seminar. And I don't think anybody came, you know, two people came and we designed a small research uh project quickly as to how

00:26:56.819 - 00:27:11.260

people felt, you know, what they were thinking just mainly wasn't, we didn't really have a design or project as much as we do when we were talking about interviewing. So I urged my students to interview people, ask them whatever they want to. We didn't have time

00:27:11.270 - 00:27:30.250

to write up a questionnaire but talk to them about it. Try to try to find out what you can from folks. Then, uh in my one o'clock class, uh I held class rather than talk about it. By that time, I, I suggested to them briefly that

00:27:30.260 - 00:27:44.910

uh they said, we wanna know how you feel. One student says I don't wanna come to class if you're not gonna talk about the masters. And thing I said, well, you, we don't have compulsory attendance. You're certainly welcome not to. But I think we've talked about

00:27:44.920 - 00:27:57.670

it for the last three days long enough. I'm quite sure the next hour could turn up nothing new and I'm sort of tired of hashing it over. I'll be glad to talk about it some other time. But we got material to cover today and I just

00:27:57.680 - 00:28:12.410

was sort of, if they had, I guess, I, I don't know, it just seemed to me that it wasn't a, didn't need to be stirred up anymore and it did, I just was kind of tired. So I went ahead and lectured that particular day. Um, do

00:28:12.420 - 00:28:28.380

we have? Oh, actually I had a guest speaker. That's what it was. I had a guest speaker and he was speaking of marijuana and he had a terrible time. He actually did a pretty good job at the first half hour. There was so restless and tight.

00:28:28.760 - 00:28:47.560

It wasn't until the last, usually they just pummeled everyone with questions and here was talking on a subject that was probably as interesting to most of them as it could be. He was a, an open minded, uh, physician and, uh, they hardly ask him any questions.

00:28:47.760 - 00:29:03.189

They just, they, they were preoccupied completely. I did tell them briefly in about five minutes. Uh, they said we wanna know how you stand. So I expressed to them briefly my, my physician, which I've indicated here though, I didn't go in anywhere near as much detail.

00:29:03.199 - 00:29:20.640

I just said that I felt procedures had been a, uh wrong and that as a matter of fact that I felt that that uh I've been disappointed in Professor Masterson's performance, although I wasn't sure that was completely representative. And then I did talk to them for

00:29:20.650 - 00:29:39.489

some, at some length about him, my own uh pride in the way they had behaved. And that I thought this was something they didn't want to, to give up easily. This, this basic dignity and decency that they had was something to be cherished. And that uh

00:29:40.050 - 00:29:53.699

I was, I feel the privilege to be a part of this, this community. And I, I felt like that uh I grew up in Texas and had a high regard for rice as a young man or a young boy and was quite pleased frankly to have

00:29:53.709 - 00:30:06.780

the opportunity to come and teach here. And I felt like in that particular week that uh I became a part of the community and I think a lot of people felt that way. A number of people said they were felt a part of rice as a

00:30:06.790 - 00:30:25.199

community more than they had at any other time. I wouldn't be surprised. They don't balance the whole, the whole I think wasn't a very good experience apart from the pain that was caused. Uh Doctor Masterson, I had to leave town that that afternoon right after class

00:30:25.689 - 00:30:44.260

and was out of town until Wednesday. So I missed all of the things that went afterward and all of the, the announcements and the, the uh but they knew mom uh I missed that completely and I listen on the radio all the way to Comanche or

00:30:44.270 - 00:31:07.630

wherever the radio station winds up. And it was interesting to me to see the distortions of things that you hear on the radio. You hear about 11 mentioned riot and uh various things that I knew were just either a little off or completely off. Then someone

00:31:07.640 - 00:31:25.219

came up to me afterwards when I, I was at uh Abilene Christian College when I was an undergraduate there, I used to act as master of ceremonies for the band and the old band director was resigning and he had me come for one last program, one

00:31:25.229 - 00:31:39.050

last winter concert that you see the main, but it was over, oh, with two or three people came up to me and say, I understand you've lost a president. I wasn't aware of it, but I'm interested to hear that. And then when I came back, things

00:31:39.060 - 00:32:04.760

were, it was, it was anticlimactic to talk about it then things were pretty well. Oh, well. Oh, so that represents that that's pretty much the historical statement of, of uh of my own reactions to the situation. And I think represents the main, main lines of interchange

00:32:04.770 - 00:32:45.260

that I had with other people. My sources were um uh limited to a few students, one favorable faculty member, three or four unfavorable faculty members. And this is the ones with whom I spoke directly other than those who spoke at, uh, at public meetings and the

00:32:45.270 - 00:33:09.869

various publications, newspapers and sheets and things like that. I suppose that's, that's pretty much it. Uh, I did not take an active part other than to cast my, my ballot, the, uh, the head of my apartment, uh, I felt like was, uh, quite fair and, and

00:33:09.880 - 00:33:26.160

insistent that we each build our own mind. Uh, and I know not everyone I, I would expect in our department of eight people, I could discern at least five different positions. Combinations of the way people are going to vote or the way that they felt. I'm

00:33:26.170 - 00:33:39.410

not sure there are that many combinations in what they had to vote on. But uh uh he was quite explicit to say, I don't wanna know how you voted. I don't want you to tell me just vote, put it in here and I'll carry it out.

00:33:39.660 - 00:33:58.849

And I felt this was a, you know, I, I felt under no kind of personal pressure and uh felt that I had had some, some voice in, in the, or the opportunity to express my own opinion without uh any kind of coercion one way or the

00:33:58.859 - 00:34:25.729

other. Although II, I feel like that uh that uh Professor Novak was a probably more favorable to uh to dark masters and then number of other faculty members. And uh but, but uh in any case, he, he did not try to and then as I say,

00:34:25.739 - 00:34:43.030

there was some, there was a wide range of, of feeling in our department but all again, amical, uh, that, let's see, what else was it that you wanted me to? But one thing that occurred to me, uh, this young senior, uh, who, uh, first, who was

00:34:43.040 - 00:34:58.009

in your Friday class at one o'clock, is he someone who will be back on campus so that we could interview him this fall? No, he, I think he will be in the Houston area though. If you, uh, uh, if you think it'd be a good interview,

00:34:58.019 - 00:35:17.379

we would like to contact you. Oh, II, I think it might be. What is his name? Uh, Gus Spirit never run across the night before, but he wasn't, you know, he, it's, it's not likely that you would have run across it particularly because he wasn't, uh,

00:35:17.389 - 00:35:35.939

a leader at any particular point and it's not a, not the sort that, that, uh, makes speeches, but he's a, I'm not an intelligent balance, had an intelligent, balanced view of things. And I, the professors you talked to, who were the faculty members, you talked to,

00:35:35.949 - 00:35:55.739

who were pro masters and what, uh, what was their position? Could you, uh, recap that in your mind? Basically that he was a, he was a competent scholar that, uh, whenever they had heard him be critical, whenever they had seen him run afoul of someone that

00:35:55.750 - 00:36:21.070

it was because he did not consider them to be competent in their and academically competent. And I think they were sort of taking a viewpoint that, uh, that, uh, he was a, that opposition to him or the, yeah, where he had, excuse me, where he had

00:36:21.080 - 00:36:41.949

shown opposition was, uh, over a matter of academic confidence and they might be trying to mask it in some other way. Uh, that also that he would be good for the humanities, social sciences, that this would be AAA plus. Although this did not seem to me,

00:36:41.959 - 00:37:01.209

I could be, again, quite naive about all this and several people mentioned it, but it did not seem to me to be a major, a major theme, the tension between various departments of the university he met versus sciences. And I didn't, didn't get my sense of

00:37:01.219 - 00:37:22.600

that. Uh I did on the other side, get some people who felt that he was uh not distinguished enough as a scholar, but mainly the, the the opposition to him was that he was not a flexible enough man to be they a president of a college

00:37:22.610 - 00:37:40.620

in these particular times, which let's say based only on a I, I wouldn't have wanted to cast a vote without having a wider college. Only thing are, it's sort of an important decision. But uh based on what I knew, I felt like that he did not

00:37:40.629 - 00:37:56.540

appear to me to be sufficiently flexible. And by that, I don't, I don't mean completely other direct to the point that he just holds his finger in the wind. I think that there are times when a many times when an administrator has to, you know, that

00:37:56.550 - 00:38:06.979

the, that the buck stops there, that he has to say, uh if he's going to have any, if he's going to be of any use, either as a representative of the, of the faculty to the board or the board of the faculty, then he's got to

00:38:06.989 - 00:38:30.070

be a strong enough man occasion to make unpopular decisions, but uh that he is not obtuse in his dealings with uh with uh the students or faculty. And I just, it really worried me based on the performance that I saw that uh that uh doctor Masterson

00:38:30.469 - 00:38:50.709

wouldn't be this. So, although of course, he has a record apparently of successful administration and uh I'm sure the board didn't just, I just didn't know, II I felt like it was better that he did not stay. I felt like it would have been far better

00:38:51.209 - 00:39:08.100

if you had not been asked uh to have avoided the uh particular difficulty. Although I'm not sure about that, I'm not sure the university suffered because if, if this could be used ra rather than as a, as a kind of opportunity for faculty and board to

00:39:08.110 - 00:39:24.520

retrench against each other, then it could be bad. But if it could be used as even a painful reminder that people had to come to a better understanding of what's involved in the university. Uh, the faculty who are very independent, don't like to think they're, anyone's

00:39:24.530 - 00:39:43.929

hired him and it's, I think it's important for the board, many of whom are used to dealing with men who are, who, who do work for them and understand this situation that, uh, that they understand that the psychology of academic person means that he's a man

00:39:43.939 - 00:40:08.310

who is not only like to be independent but uh fiercely defensive about his independence, wants to, wants to maintain it. Yeah, to be treated independently. I think the board did not understand that properly. It appeared to me and made a severe mistake, you know, overriding that

00:40:08.320 - 00:40:32.959

particular uh committee. Mr Teague indicated he knew that he had overridden it, not Mr Teague, Teague, Alan, I've said Teague, but I meant Allen. Uh it can, I had the right man in my mind but uh I don't know, Mr T uh but Mr Allen indicated

00:40:32.969 - 00:40:51.409

and was quite embarrassed at having made this uh blunder, the, the groups having made it. But uh took the view where we, we've made it so we have to live with it. Of course, I think that's, that's a mistake too. You don't have to always live

00:40:51.419 - 00:41:08.669

with your mistakes. You can uh go back home. But I, I frankly felt like that even if uh as a matter of tactics that it would have been possible to have retained Doctor Masterson as president, had that been desirable, uh, had he been the kind of

00:41:08.679 - 00:41:26.620

man who ought to have been president? But I, I believe frankly that he could have handled it better but then always hindsight is 2020. But I felt that at the time too, what do you consider, uh, uh, from the point of view of your discipline? Uh,

00:41:26.629 - 00:41:57.790

some of the interesting aspects of this, uh, of this whole episode. Oh, it was interesting to me both the way that, uh part I've just said the, the different ways in which the university is perceived by students, faculty and board this, I guess was the, the,

00:41:58.219 - 00:42:15.189

the most fascinating to me, students seem to, they talked a lot about due process and equal representation and all of this. And I've indicated earlier how I, how I felt about this that uh they should have a, uh a we but, uh I, I frankly don't

00:42:15.199 - 00:42:32.419

think it should be an equal voice in, in, in, in matters of administration. And I don't think they should higher faculty or higher administration. I don't think they're competent to do that, but I do think they're competent to, to do what they were asked to do

00:42:32.429 - 00:42:48.939

through the committee. They are competent through a representative committee to make suggestions and to say, think about this imminently competent should be considered for this. And uh I frankly felt like the situation as it was set up with the committee was the way things should have

00:42:48.949 - 00:43:08.040

been done. That was a perfectly open to that. And even, I'm not even sure, I, I, I don't know, I'm not even sure the board doesn't have the, the, uh, the right, obviously they have the legal, right. But I mean, that it ideally that they shouldn't

00:43:08.290 - 00:43:23.429

have been over, able to override the committee, but I do think they made a serious mistake in just overriding it without telling them, you know, they, they give them all the, the business about how they want them to and then just go past them. I don't

00:43:23.439 - 00:43:36.629

know why they did that. I don't know whether it was a feeling of, well, we're gonna, we can do it if we want to. We don't have to go back to them. We were just, you know, sort of an employee kind of thing or whether they

00:43:36.639 - 00:43:55.280

just didn't consider that they should do that through temperament or whatnot or whether it was just an egregious blunder of some, you know, inexplicable sort. I really don't know. I, I try not to pass judgment on them on that since I don't know why they did

00:43:55.290 - 00:44:14.729

it. But, uh, it seems to me absolutely clear. They made a grave error because it, uh, it calls into question, I don't think that another president, he's in a bad shape. Many people said, well, nobody will want to be president. I don't think that's necessarily true

00:44:14.739 - 00:44:30.010

that, that another man could come in. And if you were chosen by this group, I think that the students of this university being what they are and the faculty too, quite well want to go along and show, you know, that we, we were honest in our

00:44:30.020 - 00:44:47.360

protest that we'll do, we'll go along with you and you don't have to be perfect. I don't think they expected one to be perfect. I was uh quite impressed frankly with the quality of, of uh students and then the quality of faculty uh behavior in the,

00:44:47.370 - 00:45:06.929

in the whole thing. I thought this was a not a not something where the university suffered and it could be a indeed the kind of model I would wish for for uh I may be more traditionalist, but I, I think civility has its place and uh

00:45:07.070 - 00:45:30.719

we, we uh we are the poorer for it when we lose it, but it's still one can, can make his voice heard. Um I also think it's, it's a, I try to work with the thing on the, on the matter of the faculty. What, what is

00:45:30.729 - 00:45:45.899

the faculty's role in administration and all of this? And I, and I'm not sure as I say, I just, I just started to teach, just been thrown into the situation and I'm not sure I have a very well worked out philosophy to be a little presumptuous

00:45:45.909 - 00:46:09.060

for me to try to say, uh I personally do not covet administrative duties. I want to Jacque Barzoon says that the role of administration is to see to it that the chalk is there uh as a symbol of, of everything. And uh I, I recognize this

00:46:09.070 - 00:46:24.409

is tremendously difficult and I have a lot of, a lot of admiration for folk who, who are good administrators who see to it, that the chalk is there to provide the place, the, the place and the catalogs and the scheduling and all of that. And I

00:46:24.419 - 00:46:46.850

think faculty are, are frequently remiss in their appreciation for administration and that they are not, uh do not co-operate adequately on matters of uh seeing to it, that students are not admitted to class, they haven't paid fees or are trying to go around, you know, putting

00:46:46.860 - 00:47:05.229

the bursar in the position of ogre, uh when, uh, if he doesn't do his job, well, they're not paid, the leaves aren't granted, the research money is not available. I think that, uh, that, uh the administration has a throw a demanding job and one which I

00:47:06.229 - 00:47:23.989

since I don't want it, I think that I probably don't have to make it any harder for the, for the administrators. And I think faculty sometimes are frankly a little bit immature about, uh some of their attitudes toward menstruation. And then the way that they, they

00:47:24.000 - 00:47:42.959

think it's a either that they want it all for themselves, which seems to me to be suicidal for a scholar or that, uh, they see themselves as frequently. Not by no means this, I guess the majority of the things wouldn't work. They do, but they kind

00:47:42.969 - 00:48:03.399

of see themselves in, in pos position to the administration. Sometimes had to, I like to think of us as friends who can do well without each other. Uh, but this would be the, the thing that would, would strike me as interesting to, to compare the views

00:48:03.439 - 00:48:22.409

of students, faculty and board as to what an administration is and what their role and administration or a university is and what their role and it's uh it's continuous, would be maybe these four aspects that there, particularly the, the administration didn't seem to figure in so

00:48:22.419 - 00:48:41.850

much as it did. I'm not sure that's, that's correct. But th those, those were the constellations that one was dealing with in the open where the board, faculty and students and they all struck me as having rather different views of what a university at a university

00:48:41.860 - 00:48:58.610

here. I'm teaching a course with four of the mayor in the fall on uh the university, we have 100 students lined up for it. So I have to hammer through a number of these things. I guess this is one of the reasons my views are somewhat

00:48:58.620 - 00:49:14.169

up in the air is because I've been reading so much this way. So I had a, I'm sure I must have had a far clearer idea before I began looking at it closely. But I expect to be able to produce a grand synthesis before the year

00:49:14.179 - 00:49:39.540

is out. I don't know that I have, I see if you, uh, had an opportunity for instance to interview doctor, uh Masterson, what, uh, what questions do you think would be important to put to him? I guess. I wanna ask you, why in the world did

00:49:39.550 - 00:50:02.709

you do that? I, I just, I just saw the potential supports, not just slip away, just cascaded away in 15 minutes. He just wrecked the whole thing. I don't know, maybe it was a good thing to do. And I, I was inclined to think if that's

00:50:02.719 - 00:50:17.510

the way he is, which is not a judgment on him or, you know, on him as a man or as a scholar or, or on many of the things about him. But the fact is that being a good college administrator now, one who is a public

00:50:17.520 - 00:50:36.429

administrator takes an extra five or 10% which is style. Uh 1 may say, well, that's superficial and shouldn't have to depend, but in fact, it does and it used to be that, that uh one man, one man could, could run things and be crotchety and hard

00:50:36.439 - 00:50:53.919

to deal with and all of these things. But now he's got to have some style. I'm not trying to defend that, but I think that it's, it's accurate to say that and I thought that his style is a dead wrong, just dead wrong. What would I

00:50:53.929 - 00:51:19.590

ask you? Goodness. I don't know. Besides the obvious, how did he feel? What, what would he have done? Uh, I guess I'd wanna know, what was his view of the university? How did he regard it? I would be mainly trying to satisfy my own curiosity to

00:51:19.600 - 00:51:41.939

see if this was a, he was under enormous pressure. I, I'm perfectly willing to believe that under, in different situations, he might have behaved entirely differently. On the other hand, college presidents have to be well under enormous pressure, the appointment and I felt like that uh

00:51:43.780 - 00:52:04.570

given a riot or a strike or something like that, which I personally would like to avoid. Uh I think they do. He might not have been up to it. I'm not sure who he is. They're not, you know, there's only one king and rooster. I used

00:52:04.580 - 00:52:26.560

to think Nathan Pusey can handle anything but you blew, you blew that one at Harvard apparently too. I just, uh it's a tough job, a man who's a good college president should be able to handle just about anything but, but it's, you know, a man uh

00:52:27.699 - 00:52:46.459

this university because of its size and all, apparently it does depend. Hi Leah. I'm in not having been here under present pitcher's era, but looking back on what people say that, uh OK, he must have been a remarkable gentleman and that his being president made a

00:52:46.469 - 00:53:10.399

lot of difference and I should think you'd be sad if we were to get a man of, of a lesser accountable. And it wasn't, it wasn't clear to me that based on what I knew that uh, Doctor Masterson was of the same caliber, but then somewhat

00:53:10.409 - 00:53:27.429

presumptuous, I guess, for me to uh play that I really didn't know either one of them. And I, I think I would, you know, would want to qualify. But I said on the basis of the fact that it's based on much more superficial, I, I'm not,

00:53:27.439 - 00:53:44.360

I should not care to write an article about it and have my, have my scholarship judged on the basis of what I've said since the evidence is quite insufficient, what, uh, what questions would come to your mind if you had an opportunity to interview the board,

00:53:44.370 - 00:54:06.600

for instance, I would want to find out from him. Ok. I'd like to know just how they regarded the, the response. I think that their, their own reaction would be, would tell a lot as to where I would go from there. Uh, I wanna find out,

00:54:06.610 - 00:54:19.590

I think whether or not they viewed the uni how they viewed the university and their, and their role as it, whether they viewed it simply as some charge as their kind of private toy. But it seems to me to be a bit harsh. A lot of

00:54:19.600 - 00:54:36.820

them have been most generous with time and their money. And I think the, that, uh students and faculty do a great disservice when they, when they overlooked this and, and seemed to view view the board simply as a uh you know, as as enemies. They may

00:54:36.830 - 00:54:52.929

have made mistakes. And I think indeed, in this case, they did, but they do not uh not unwilling to uh write them off of this. Uh I wanna find out how they view the, the university. It seems to me this is really the crucial, the crucial

00:54:54.510 - 00:55:13.850

question in all of this is because previous ideas of the university seem to have broken down and then we are in the process now of trying to reconstruct, what is the university? What, what should it be? What's the nature of the good university? And I'd, I'd

00:55:13.860 - 00:55:36.959

like to, to see what the board thinks. I kind of think we probably think somewhat differently, but, uh, not sure I'd like to see if they view, if they view faculty as employees. I'd like to see if they, if they in their attitude towards students. I'm

00:55:36.969 - 00:55:57.550

sure that many of them probably think students ought not to be behaving the way they are now. But I'm interested in seeing if they would simply say back to the way it was offer creative ways to dealing with the situation as it is, which seems to

00:55:57.560 - 00:56:12.290

me to be the only viable option that simply isn't going to go back to the way it was. Got parents didn't raise their Children that way these Children are not going to be like that. Yeah, they got a lot of falls but they're also a great

00:56:12.300 - 00:56:28.989

bunch of kids and they've got to be, they are simply not gonna grow up and be replicas of, of the board. And they don't wanna be though, most of them in the solar modes wouldn't say that's bad to be like that. They just, they just reared

00:56:29.000 - 00:56:49.050

in a different way and they're there, they don't have the same kind of respect for elders and authority and all of that, which is uh no, I still say mister to people that are 33 since they're a year older than uh and for this reason, I,

00:56:50.979 - 00:57:10.350

I understand, I think the way the board, the board feel might feel and I shouldn't speak for them, but I'd be interested to note whether they are, whether they simply will lament and curse the students or whether they are willing to try to come to some

00:57:10.360 - 00:57:32.550

understanding of it and see how to, to see how they can work together in this particular climate to make a good university. Oh, and I'd just like to see what the, what they consider their role to be, what they consider the role of the president to

00:57:32.560 - 00:58:04.379

be, seems to be a crucial point if they consider him to be merely fundraiser. Oh, th this, this range of questions, what is a good professor? How they view the, the role of the why do they see the university as a, as a Houston Institute or

00:58:04.389 - 00:58:33.179

whether they see it as a, uh as a university with, with possible national uh with, with a greater relevance to the national scene? What I guess that's most of what I can think of now. Well, that's, that's very, uh, very helpful and very insightful. Um One

00:58:33.189 - 00:58:51.610

thing we have been, uh we wanted to be very certain of and that is that we get uh as wide a range of, um, outlooks meditates in this, uh in this series of interviews as we can possibly get, um, of the people that, you know, II,

00:58:51.689 - 00:59:07.449

I think that, um, well, maybe it'd be better just to make an open end question uh, of the people that you've spoken with. Are, are there any, uh, faculty members or students, uh whom you'd like to suggest that we interview whose name might not, uh, come

00:59:07.459 - 00:59:41.500

to our attention? Well, have you talked with Ted Harwood? No. Well, Ted is a, he's a sociologist and also Fred Gams, an anthropologist. They, I think Fred, I don't know for sure this, but I'm pretty sure Fred voted maybe in favor of Masterson. I know that,

00:59:41.510 - 01:00:07.330

uh, Ted was who regards himself as a conservative was, um, I think he felt pretty much that the student was in faculty had, should have had maybe less say than he did. But that's anyway, I, I won't try to try to figure out speak for him,

01:00:07.340 - 01:00:26.679

but I would suggest you talk to him, both of them, I think, uh, held somewhat different views and ideas. It would be worth that worth consulting. Uh, did you, have you talked to Mrs Goodman? Mary Ellen Goodman. She's not always, well, she's, in fact, she's, it

01:00:26.689 - 01:00:51.250

sort of limited capacity just now but, uh, she might, if she's available, she might be willing to talk to you. And I know she, uh, also held a somewhat different point, probably closer to professor and all that, whom you have talked with. Uh, I guess you,

01:00:51.260 - 01:01:28.139

you, you know, talk with the student leaders, most of those who were involved, I suppose you talk professor Harman and the other professors that I know would be Bronson and Salzburg, the Rooker and those who are, are obvious, uh, obvious name. I don't, I can't think

01:01:28.149 - 01:01:39.919

of any others that, uh, now that I say that was all happening at the time when my own, I had classes of over 100 the second semester. So I, I got into the school a little bit more at the end. But, uh, that came at a

01:01:39.929 - 01:02:02.590

point when I was really rather limited in my, in my associations. Oh, I know what to do about the project. Do you have any special, uh, suggestions or recommendations or nights you'd like to pass on? No, I'm not sure exactly. Uh, I thought about the thing.

01:02:02.989 - 01:02:15.600

I, I find myself it used to be when I was in graduate school I thought, will I ever have another idea past my thesis? And now I'm just, uh, I have it, it, it hurts me to think that some of these great ideas I have won't

01:02:15.610 - 01:02:30.860

be able to be turned into books because I won't get to them. You know, in my lifetime I now have on my wall, a list of something like 14 major projects that I'm all set to, to laugh a lot, you know, to write the definitive work

01:02:30.870 - 01:02:46.679

in. And I find my mind runs to, you know, well, what's, is there something here that should be researched? And I thought over this particular thing briefly and it got away from it so quickly. I mean, it, it came and went and I was sort of,

01:02:46.689 - 01:03:05.260

uh, oh, a little bit surprised that, uh, that a major research was going on. But then as I got thinking about it, I mean, what the thing that the thing it would seem to me to be interesting would be the mechanics of this university, not only

01:03:05.270 - 01:03:25.709

what happened then, but what went back before, uh, and, and to what led up to, uh these particular kinds of feelings, not just with Masterson, but the relationship between the board and all of this, I guess that I would wanna unravel the board's role. That would

01:03:25.719 - 01:03:39.540

be the thing in which I would be most interested. The other is so much more accessible. Students don't know, they're trying to figure out, I don't mean they're ignorant but, I mean, they are part of their being in a university is to try to figure out

01:03:39.550 - 01:03:54.580

why they're here and what the university is to bring them. And this is a current but that the predominant activities of students is to figure out what, what am I doing here? What should I be doing here? And I think faculty members at least have, tend

01:03:54.590 - 01:04:10.449

to have at least an individual idea of how they want the university to run. And this is, there are types of this, but not many people know what boards think. That's true. They just, uh they meet and you don't know what they, they talk about. The,

01:04:10.459 - 01:04:23.550

the vote was 9 to 6 and you don't know who voted how, or, or what they said. And uh I'd like to know more about how the board thinks and what they think about the future and whether or not they're gonna try to figure out some

01:04:23.560 - 01:04:37.469

way to, to repeat the thing and to show by George we're still the board or whether they're going to say, well, we need to learn from this. I, they say this is a matter of much, a matter of curiosity because I don't know the board, I

01:04:37.479 - 01:04:58.060

have very few preconceptions about them except that they must be a group of extraordinarily generous men and women. And uh I guess it's, it's uh I always had a, I, I was reading something about Americans have a view that if they could get the people together

01:04:58.070 - 01:05:14.919

they could talk it out. I, I had the feeling if I could just go and talk with the board, I believe we can get this thing settled, but I didn't feel it strong enough to call Mr Lovett. So, did you, uh, did you hear of anyone

01:05:14.929 - 01:05:29.209

who had that feeling strong enough to call one of them? I heard some faculty member, I believe, who had talked with you. I really think that it would be quite good if it were possible. But thank goodness, you know, I know what this means. It means

01:05:29.219 - 01:05:47.129

tremendous demands on the board. But if it were possible for, not just for the, the department heads and the people who've been here for 20 years, but if it were possible for young professors to be able to, to visit with the board and to, to get

01:05:47.139 - 01:06:05.020

the idea of, of um, of what's, what's going on in other places and to, to become acquainted with the board. If there was some way that the, the board could meet new, many new faculty members probably don't have any interest in this at all. If there

01:06:05.030 - 01:06:23.030

was some way that they could, that, uh how many board members are there? I don't know, 20 or 25 or 15, however, that uh, that each of them could meet with, I mean, a new faculty are 100 75. I don't know, could, perhaps have one of

01:06:23.040 - 01:06:35.610

them, could have dinner with seven or eight each of them could, it doesn't, you know, wouldn't have to know them all. But if that was some, some possibility just to see how the board views things and for them to be able to toss back and forth

01:06:35.620 - 01:06:53.280

ideas they would. Uh, no, I think I should feel not in terms of Golly, how could the board have done that? But rather uh you know, Mr, so and so Mr, he said he's a nice fella, he wouldn't have gone off and done that just, just

01:06:53.290 - 01:07:13.500

to be hateful. Um This kind of, that seems to me to be something where in one or two nights, maybe a board member could it be, could show insight, this faculty could gain but things are a lot different coming out of college is a person who

01:07:13.510 - 01:07:32.540

has come out of Harvard or Columbia or Berkeley in the last three years. I just, just finished at Harvard, two of my colleagues just finished at Berkeley. Uh I'm sure we have somewhat different uh insights on, on what may come, what is rapidly spreading. And it

01:07:32.550 - 01:07:45.989

was quite obvious to me that some of the student demonstrations, they didn't really, maybe they didn't have that much to pin on, but they were looking desperate for something where they could write or to demonstrate to show that they were a first grade school, the first

01:07:46.000 - 01:08:00.310

grade schools are demonstrating. And so we, we've got to do this. Uh, not only here but in other places too, but I think it would be good for boards to be kept aware of this and they're not as able to be kept aware of it. Someone

01:08:00.320 - 01:08:15.850

who's been at rice for 20 years, not that rice is the backwater, but it's just, it doesn't represent the whole universe And, uh, that it would seem to me the board would covet this kind of this kind of association and also it would serve to, to

01:08:15.929 - 01:08:36.430

establish, I think some feeling of loyalty, our identification with the, with the university among your professors, which do tend to be dedicated to their discipline rather than to their university. And the university has to be a place where they are currently practicing their discipline. I, I'm

01:08:36.439 - 01:08:54.519

more community oriented, I suppose and wouldn't, would not have come here if I hadn't felt that, you know, I'd like it. I, I wouldn't accomplice for a, I mean, it may be simply a first step in my career, either by mutual agreement or agreement of one

01:08:54.528 - 01:09:10.439

or more one or either of the parties. But, uh, I wouldn't have come here if I hadn't thought there was a chance this was a, might, a good place to be. And, uh, I, I didn't think it would have been helpful had I had an opportunity

01:09:10.450 - 01:09:26.060

to, to, uh, talk with one of the board members and find out how, how does the board, what do you think the university is? Here's what I think a university is. And uh next time you're back to the board, you might mention, you know that uh

01:09:26.120 - 01:09:47.439

that this is, this is one mustard seed over here that thinks this, I think that'd be helpful. You may suggest that and initial it. And uh William Martin of the Sociology Department suggests meeting with young faculty members for the college set up also if they want

01:09:47.450 - 01:10:00.479

to bring the students in on this or are so well, you know, this is a marvelous situation for communication. Just what it seems to me that would be a tragedy. Were we to have an all out? Uh you know, that the only way you could do

01:10:00.490 - 01:10:17.910

it would be if somebody really set out to blow it, that uh the situation here is it's so good being small with the college set up, you know, you know, professors, you know, students, uh it's a marvelous, marvelous situation and to, to mess that up would

01:10:17.919 - 01:10:33.830

require great ingenuity in application. And I should, I like to see it done if he came from Harvard. Are you one of the disciples of Talcott Parsons? Is he? He's still there, is he? Yes. Yes. Well, I was one of his students. I'm not sure I,

01:10:34.879 - 01:10:55.660

I disciple. Well, I'm gonna tell you a poor choice of word. Oh, no, that's a, that's an adequate choice. There are many, there, there are disciples. Uh I came through the uh uh ethics and sociology, religion and I did take sociology, religion from him. Uh political,

01:10:55.669 - 01:11:24.910

sociology things, I think courses and I, he's no doubt influenced my thought considerably, but I, I kind of backed into sociology. Yeah, formal training in ethics and theology. How many sociologists have been here there? Training in? Well, I was wondering about you, you have an interesting

01:11:24.919 - 01:11:41.290

background at uh at uh Ely Christian. I was wondering about your, when you had mentioned earlier, the uh sociology of religion, I realized there was a strong connection. Yes. Well, I went to uh I took a bachelor's and master's degree in theology from Abilene. And then

01:11:41.299 - 01:11:56.149

I went to Harvard Divinity School. Graduated from seminary, not, I didn't go there with the intention of being a parish minister, but with the intention of teaching religion. And then I went to this field of ethics and sociology of religion. There was a third area which

01:11:56.160 - 01:12:15.580

was open, it was an interdisciplinary thing. And so I chose urban sociology and in the process became something of a sociologist and really wasn't sure where I would, whether I would teach ethics or sociology. But uh I found, I think the perfect blend here that I'm

01:12:15.589 - 01:12:34.770

teaching American social problems and criminology, which take up a lot of my ethical interest. And then sociology of religion. And I teach a course research methods too. It's a, so I feel like it's an ideal situation but it sounds like, you know, all the, all the

01:12:34.779 - 01:12:50.040

makings are they gratify? I teach. You know, I'm, I, you know, I, after having thought about it for 15 years, I'm just delighted. It's really what I do wanna do. I couldn't be happy. I feel ashamed to take money. Although that's, that's not a fair attribution,

01:12:51.520 - 01:13:07.370

but we'll scrub that. Well, I really enjoyed this, uh, this conversation we had. I realize you've been very generous with your time. It's getting close to your lunch hour. Do you have any other thoughts you'd like to pass on? Don't hesitate to, uh, give me a

01:13:07.379 - 01:13:21.500

call and just leave a message for me to get in touch with you. I'm over here, uh, two or three times a week, 23 days. I don't know, but I to deliver any great profundities, but I think of anything or anybody that you perhaps should talk

01:13:21.509 - 01:13:29.140

to. I'll be glad to suggest that too. Thank you so much for coming in. The time is now 1145.