00:00:01.980 - 00:00:35.159

This is interview. This is interview number 37. Doctor Will Dowen. Today is June 26th, 1969. This is tape 10 side two. Now set the dial to zero. My name is Will Doen and I teach in the English Department at Rice University. My address is 356 Piney

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Point Road, Houston. All right, like dead. And then we were just going over some of the objectives that we have in this project. Uh uh We're interested in uh your uh recalling as many of your uh personal experience as possible. And also you're recalling your uh

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your attitudes and interpretations of the events as they unfolded um as a background to this. Uh perhaps it might be interesting to uh to hear your views on how on um what you consider to be some of the primary functions of the office of president in

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a private institution such as rise in this day and age. In other words, what uh what set of uh of uh characteristics were you looking for in a, in a man who would replace kind of picture for instance? Well, first of all, I think one would

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hope that we could afford the part to have achieved as much scholarly expertise and stood as high in the scholar world of stock. One would also hope that it would be in my house. We would have would understand an academic point of view, really a surprising

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point of view, actually a student point and I suppose the one could also hold six. Yeah. Com appreciate your thought. And I OK, plan diabetic prescription of birth pre at the time. The uh psych, the advisory committee was uh uh inviting next of candidates that you

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submitted them. Uh pretty is not here. What uh what kind of background did it have? Well, the one man, but on the letter, well, I like it better to the faculty. What a IM or is a my achieved considerable success as a scholar in I think

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political science, he had been in the graduate school of a very large Southern University State University and is a president and chancellor of one of the um Cap Clovers South was uh doctor ever been hurt a person, but I still think you would be president to

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tracking you. Pardon me for a question. Uh Did you have any private conversations with the members of the uh faculty uh committee? That the effect that would indicate to you that this man uh would be uh of the caliber labor? Well, I've talked about it yet.

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I've talked to about it. You can depress. What about I seem to appreciate the information about you. An article also prescription of the Good. Ok. I, that I'm sure appreciate that. I have been a great many of those, uh, uh, candidates that you didn't receive anything.

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The way those, uh, just making decisions together. I don't know because I read things to, to not be available and all I know too much that, I mean, I, I have no idea what it takes to me is one considered that if you consider my and

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if you, the one you would like to attract, then you contact. All we can do is say no 15, this would be a move, right? And that pain very, very f mhm origin. Yeah. Um but, but again, you, you don't know, you might be very much

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attracted to Houston personally. I haven't been near Nashville. I don't see why anyone would rather live. I just near Nashville. You, you weren't mad about the accident and I met chat to her that mark you there tend to be uh various ideas about uh pri uh

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function in universities these days. Uh Some, some people look to the say for strong leadership and sort of the the headed side of things that I sell it. And uh uh other schools seem to be getting a little bit away from this kind of my political

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organization, highly centralized and going in the v of a almost dual function. The only idea as long as not, I can say who that is. I think here I rise the that let me down here men who are recognized scholars in their own views and um

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do very strong in the sh for all that in your experience in this world. Uh Do you see more strength in this uh approach than it, than the other approach where you have a man to face the outside world, a different man to face the inside

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world or have you seen this other approach work successful or anything? Well, I'm afraid I can't answer that. I expected it that uh the homemade, the only other uh experience or the only other university that I know about is the University of North Carolina. Well, I

00:08:15.940 - 00:08:42.950

suppose the other approach that you describe the president of the Great University of North Carolina on a Friday was a friend of mine don't have experience to um he was in law school. Mhm. I can finish about three. Can I make a system to the Dean

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of the brain? And when great you not no such as active and did very well with um very touchy situation you don't count. I wanna go tell, right? I think he's gonna send out uh I, I've kept up with it just like, and there is a

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man who is not a, who had not achieved success as a scholar, but I think did operate from an academic point of view or something. A thing is blood undergraduate years in law school and during the time of graduate, I most years in law school. Did

00:10:12.400 - 00:10:37.169

you, uh, is there any other names in the, uh, rumor now, uh, minister of the present? Who you, uh, thought would, uh, make good? Uh, I sure did. I seem to remember it right now. This is one of the questions we have to go out. Well,

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something happened in color. Um, how you got the news that the board had made a decision to bring? Yeah. So I make sure um well, I know how I heard about but that they had thank you, Dr Ross. OK. Oh four. We learned how to practice.

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Um And he told, since they told me at that time that the court had made the decision, he didn't uh they had announced given to the committee for tomorrow. GF Good bye. Yeah. Not that I know you. Not that no. OK. But it wasn't until Friday

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certain times. Mhm. Mm uh And then this first not now one, the college college motion. Mm. 12. Not that good certain signs but really be understandable only to one. Yeah. Not doing very well. I, I told my colleague three minutes before the time. OK. What, what

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would it say that you need? I, if I had a phone call, oh, either four or not, it was either late in January or February and this was uh uh and they cause it, he and I through the years and they, of course of terms. Um,

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he called me to ask for information or some recommendations, uh, called the chairmanship to the English Department at the University of Chattanooga. And at the time I was somewhat puzzled at the call because he had been here, uh, earlier in the year on a, now since

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the recruiting trip and their mouth. All, er, ce I got in touch with time. I was puzzled although I wrote him a letter in which I named a number of people with the possible candidacy of the physician. And indeed that thank you too. Now that one

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of the, I get excited that he would take the position that tried to make the trip. I thought he had better one where he was like, oh, I, I thought at first he meant it was, uh, you know, my, my, my view about the call was

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that, uh, after some worse day, I suppose he thought I was still a challenge in his department. So I, I, yeah, to someone, ok, German is a very important part. Yeah, as I say, one has to know the situation of master before you can understand it.

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But I think you would agree with me that I let the sign so very good. And I found out afterwards I told the story and also about, uh, I would I be interpreting you correctly to say that you, uh, understand that you already knew or had

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the offer on the right. He was certainly being considered. I don't know, you have the offer in two minutes. Uh, the letter I got from him then after the call. Thanks for my letter, which they called the letter. So they said we have done. So, uh,

00:16:22.710 - 00:16:41.440

if you, uh, even used, uh, for me, da, did you put a newspaper or was it the television? Well, no, I called my company called the newspaper and I think, I think it was ch, I'm not sure one of the two major newspapers. But do you

00:16:41.450 - 00:16:56.200

impressed at the time that the league had been through Masterson or through the university attended? It was a seminar as I understand it. And this is just simply what I've heard. So I understand that the student say that they should be and see. Right. Uh, somebody

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got up and said, what are we going to do about a chancellor at the, at the, at the University of Chattanooga, which was to become part of the greater University of Tennessee? And that leaked it. You see, I, I understand that, I don't know that this

00:17:10.078 - 00:17:34.099

is what somebody told me. It sounds like that. What did you do then? This must have been on Friday and you're looking at Friday at four o'clock Monday that day? Well, I have a commitment and of course, this was main subject conversation aside from the business

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which we have had to transact then, uh, in the, uh, early afternoon, I went to the office of one of my colleagues in the history department. I was actually looking for a colleague of mine in English. You must be around somewhere and it turned out that

00:18:01.900 - 00:18:36.250

he was in another office in the history department. And so they were five of us, we left in this office and discussed what should be done under the circumstances when you whatever, quite frankly, not only disturbed about the method of appointment, but I got the appointment

00:18:40.770 - 00:19:12.670

and it was decided that we should the doctors now to the faculty at the faculty meeting, which I've been called 41. We should present a resolution uh asking that the appointment be reconsidered. After consultation with the committee, we would ask correct it. The five student. All

00:19:12.760 - 00:19:36.979

right. No, we wrote the resolution back. I went to the office. I I'm done. He took it around and got a number of signatures on. Has not, in fact, when we finally got it, this was at around two o'clock by the time we got through with

00:19:36.989 - 00:20:05.569

it, I suppose it was 230. We have four. We I left you some cy No, I and this was the resolution which plus a war, the request of chancellor coma to see where the man your time did anything stand out, especially in your memory on the

00:20:05.579 - 00:20:40.630

back of the meeting or the good place for good. Oh Not there, not particular. Oh yes. The whole thing that I, I uh I think feeding was running very high. Uh What are we on the fatigue? The boy turn into a uh the meeting had been

00:20:40.640 - 00:21:07.180

called, I believe by professor bro, who was the chairman of the selection committee or the advisory committee of Selection. Uh But primarily I do being a legendary in science for resided, but he was delayed getting in by weather on a trip you're taking. So Chancellor Pro

00:21:07.520 - 00:21:36.550

Max presided uh Mr Allen made the announcement of the um if I'm on the go back and add to your opinion, the committee on the appointment. Yeah, there, bro. Oh, ok. I asked him that the committee and I think, but I think you feel after any

00:21:36.760 - 00:22:12.079

part and then we cross the ward, the hospital floor where the resolution, which is a 68 not uh I think I've forgotten the sequence of events, I think maybe before that. Me and Rich, that's what you were right, Mr Allen coming out in 1980 the German,

00:22:13.420 - 00:22:37.400

uh there were a number of vocal nos through there and one booth which seem to accept the deal. I expect a whole lot. But there was only one because of the uh I heard uh there were a number of nos we do not want to test

00:22:37.479 - 00:22:54.390

to come, but otherwise we did not object, but there were only the one that and I'm sure this man to get actually in a, in a good friend of English, even though we have talking together the next day, that it's a very emotional response to it.

00:22:55.089 - 00:23:40.359

The situation was there. No, no, no, no. And that, which was I, I really want to do it. But why should I do it? Do you call a deer? Right? Like you did before? And they come out? Mhm. Thank you. Equally good. You're equally good. Let

00:23:40.430 - 00:24:25.910

see you say that the, the thing, the jar, the, uh, the, before that, the only reason I say that is, and Jordan told me maybe more much compression I can do. And he just said not with the fact that because that's good. That right. Yeah.

00:24:26.959 - 00:25:12.750

Ok. Uh, sorry. Ok. Put the impression there that, uh, the board is acting 11 or three or the act. So I, I went, I left, you know, true that that's not, it's not a pain. My, my fee I thought was gonna get. So it not. So

00:25:16.170 - 00:25:49.150

I've had altercation, I can't work more, probably a bit much better to have that. Indeed. I think last the notation much more than simple personal qualification, that substance what you know, that, uh, before it's, uh, two or three days, you know, it gets almost, uh, p

00:25:49.180 - 00:26:09.609

uh, to hear it. Yeah, I'm just, uh, repeating his, I don't know whether you told that or not. It seems to me that when I say the board, I naively, it seems to me that the board had a committee that, which very well could have consulted

00:26:10.660 - 00:26:42.819

if it had been something, if the boy had been something they would have found out that there was this, the opposition to the party and the 11, her father did not one, is there anything else in the meeting that, uh, that, uh, that up? Well, we

00:26:42.829 - 00:27:11.770

attached the, uh, well, the, the revolution which we, I guess for nothing. Mhm. Five. Excuse me, I think that drug is meant for me. Excuse me, excuse me, for that interruption. Uh We were just talking about the uh the interruption for the resolution on which they

00:27:11.780 - 00:27:53.630

voted. Uh The resolution was split into two parts. Uh The first part was um we express the faculties dissatisfaction with the method in which the, the president was appointed me. And the second part, I believe the wording was emphatically requested that the board reconsider the appointment

00:27:53.640 - 00:28:17.000

after consultation with this committee and we voted on the two parts separately. The first part passed and overwhelmed. The second part did too. Although there were some abstentions, I think because I remember the vote was, and the second part was 97 to 50 something that's recording.

00:28:19.130 - 00:28:43.119

I, I'm, I'm not, I don't remember accurately but it wasn't significant passage, not with resolution at the time. Um You uh formulated the resolution and then still uh in the meeting itself. Um What was in the back of your mind as far as the, the ultimate

00:28:43.130 - 00:29:04.069

goal is concerned uh was it uh the wording of the resolution seems to have some significance here about uh emphatically requesting that the board reconsider after consultation with the uh committee rather than a consult committee. And then we can, we sincerely hoped that the board would,

00:29:04.939 - 00:29:38.069

would uh notify Mr Masterson that uh they must consult with the committee and then consult with the committee and uh um like this actively so solicit the in the attitude of the committee which would reflect the attitude of the faculty and the students. So the, the,

00:29:38.079 - 00:29:51.829

the only way out at this point was to get the board to rescind its appointment. Well, that's what we have not rescind it, but reconsider it, I suppose in a sense it would be re rescinding uh in the sense that they would hold it in abeyance

00:29:51.839 - 00:30:11.199

until they had consulted this, this committee. This was our hope. Did you have a second step in mind? Uh So when they, when they consult that for me, uh that for me, I mean, we had had time an hour and a half when we have had

00:30:11.209 - 00:30:40.790

no meeting. So we during, during that time, oh, we can hold twice that we could get a commitment from the board to due process. What did you do after the um uh faculty meeting? Well, I remember walking out of the back of Chemistry lecture hall to

00:30:40.800 - 00:31:17.089

the closet and they have 400 students and felt like, and she came back from the Navy War two. Somebody accused me of going around twice. Um Well, on Friday, that's all that was all we did. Then. Of course, you know about the students, the students then

00:31:17.099 - 00:31:41.469

ask that they be given a copy of the resolution which we have passed in the factory and they wrote one themselves. I don't know who, I think Lawrence GN directed it, but they wrote one themselves, which was exactly the wording of ours except that they added

00:31:41.479 - 00:32:14.599

or rather interesting clause. They said that uh the students deplore and cannot accept the action. Uh I don't know whether the word was deplore or not, but they were, but I cannot accept this. And then of course they went to, they had their meeting and Ultra

00:32:14.750 - 00:32:42.569

Cord which was fallen by the of March from the gymnasium in front of love talk over with Chicago institutes both participate. And this is while Mr Masterson was holding his press conference and then he came and spoke huh to the students and the faculty who were

00:32:42.579 - 00:33:10.319

there in front of low hall after his breast come, I understand that he had meetings in the afternoon with uh various uh members. I think they may be the presidents of the colleges and with the president of the Student Association and other officers in the afternoon

00:33:10.329 - 00:33:31.920

or evening, it went on, this went on until well, late at night, he went back to, I understand he went back to Chattanooga Sun Sunday morning. Did you, uh, attend the meeting yesterday? Did you have to speak at that meeting? No, I didn't speak at that

00:33:31.930 - 00:34:15.138

meeting. Professor Ward spoke and Professor Minter, Professor John Davidson Social of Sociology. Um, Professor Costa Warren Scaring Penny Johnson. And I've forgotten whether there were other students and I think there, yes, there was another student whom I didn't prep. Very definitely not. No. Do any of

00:34:15.148 - 00:34:42.208

those uh talks that outline things especially affect you? I hope Professor Ward and Professor Miters and Professor Davidson's were effective. And I thought uh Professor Castaneda's was he, he presented his case most elephant le honestly, he was favoring he was favoring him. And as far as

00:34:42.218 - 00:35:09.030

it's being effective, it was concerned his was not. But it was very honestly ely presented effective in that it didn't, apparently didn't sway the the group now, whether wars and mentors did it or not. I don't know. But uh vote. Do you recall that any of

00:35:09.040 - 00:35:36.250

these uh men brought out points that had not been uh discussed widely? Uh Well, I think for the first time, um one of them, I um link the method of appointment with the appointment itself. And this was the first time really at this and the first

00:35:36.260 - 00:35:56.320

time I heard it not publicly see, we did not do that in the factory. We said we asked that it be recon and objected to the, to the procedure, but by leaking it with the appointment itself, uh, uh, he suggested that had you processed then follow

00:35:56.330 - 00:36:15.860

this med would never have been chosen. Was that the implication? No, your, your education was that it should not have been Children when they were not? Ok. And the reasons he gave for the fact that he should not have been chosen was that matters of scholarship

00:36:15.870 - 00:36:44.159

or administrative ability or what? Uh Well, uh you're asking me to reproduce the statement which I remember only vaguely. Well, I didn't actually, uh I, I was wondering what impression was made on you at the time. Uh Well, II I, the impression was that the man

00:36:44.169 - 00:37:11.629

who made this remark was opposed to the appointment, not only to the matter but the apartment. So then, uh uh you were in the March to live at home. Do you recall, uh what happened in the few minutes? 30 minutes or so? Uh While people were

00:37:11.639 - 00:37:26.020

milling around in front of uh LT Hall prior to Masterson was coming out and talking to the students. So, were you engaged in any uh like country picnic? You got around and uh milled around on the grass and talked to one another mainly about this. But

00:37:26.040 - 00:37:49.000

uh there was no, it was very quiet, there's no demonstration of any sort, just sat there and just stood around and talk and waited for me to come out. How would you describe the general mood, the general feeling at the time among the, among the, among

00:37:49.010 - 00:38:34.510

the people. 01 of them dissatisfaction, disgruntlement. What happiness would be method appointment chill? Were you struck by uh uh the uh is Frida core or the, the whether this was quite optimism or pessimism or? Well, I don't know, it would be difficult

00:38:34.520 - 00:38:53.560

to say whether it was optimistic or pessimistic uh as, as, as I believe you were, you used the word, used the expression as free decor. That was certainly a very a feeling of close, a close relationship between faculty and students. They were, they were united on

00:38:53.570 - 00:39:24.639

this, on this issue. There was no doubt of this, the sign which they carried down leading the the procession, you know, was faculty and students united and that was not just uh just to slow them, that they really were united and believe me, it was, it

00:39:24.649 - 00:39:48.969

was not a matter of the faculty leading the students or the students leading the faculty at all because I know that soon after the announcement or soon after the information was received. As a matter of fact, as I was coming back from our drafting this resolution,

00:39:49.629 - 00:40:13.790

I walked down the Hall, Anderson Hall. Um Carter, my students were already flattering inside objecting to the fact that no con and I know that this to be a fact that that the students were not pushed into this at all. Nor is the fact except in

00:40:13.800 - 00:40:48.000

the way that I've described, I've heard Rice students described as rather apathetic and this is one of the strange things that this did in blame so many people and make them so cohesive. Is there more press? Yeah, on important issues be described as empathetic. And uh

00:40:48.010 - 00:41:13.679

what do you recall about uh Masterson's uh presentation on his, his, this whole episode? That thought, well, uh I heard him speak and of course, I suppose he said that uh all he could say, which was that there's been a breakdown in communications and that it

00:41:13.689 - 00:41:48.600

would be the first objective of his administration to restore communication. C had broke down, broken down, but it has to break them down. So, a as I say, this probably is about all I could say it was not, didn't in any way conciliate factory, excuse, what

00:41:48.610 - 00:42:12.489

was your impression uh at the time that he, that he should have done. Am I interrupting you? You to say that there wasn't anything else he could have done except what he didn't know what, what he could have done. He was certainly an enviable position and

00:42:12.500 - 00:42:40.090

you have 200 people marching silently down the street past where you're getting it conference in opposition to your appointment. I was in the position. What about Saturday afternoon? Were you engaged in any other activities regarding this? Uh Well, yes, I went home. I had lunch in

00:42:40.100 - 00:43:04.879

college. Uh And then I'm a, I'm an associate of Baker College. I had lunch in college and then I went home and I was doing so chores around the house when a colleague of mine called me, uh, Don Baker in geology, call me. And, uh, with

00:43:04.889 - 00:43:30.129

no purpose in mind except to talk about them about the situation and wondered he was wondering what we could do and he and I, uh, decided that we would like to talk to Dean Gordon and it was agreed that I would call me and Gordon, um,

00:43:30.530 - 00:43:55.929

to ask if we could see him. Um, I put up the phone between the time I put it up and by dialing his number, the phone rang again and it was, uh, my colleague, Douglas Price Williams was chair of the psychology department. Uh, the same thing,

00:43:55.939 - 00:44:13.350

wondered what we could do and I told him what nod and I were planning to do and he thought it was a good idea and at that point, we thought it might be well to expand, uh, our meeting. So I called him and told him that,

00:44:13.360 - 00:44:36.840

uh, tis Price Williams and Don Baker and I would like to see him and suggested that it might be well if others of our colleagues met and he agreed to this. Um, and I called some people, he called some people who got the, and we decided

00:44:36.850 - 00:45:12.739

to meet in his office on Sunday afternoon. I four. So when we met there were, I, I don't know, just how many about, I would say 12 dozen, maybe 55 one scan the president of the Student Association. And we, uh, deliberated for about three hours as

00:45:12.750 - 00:45:34.169

to what could and what should be done. I remember Professor Fulton was there. They had a master's meeting and he made himself available to go to Chattanooga, to talk to doctor when I say masters meeting, you know, I mean, the masters of the colleges and he

00:45:34.179 - 00:45:58.020

was a master of will had a meeting of the masters of the college at which they had decided, maybe they should talk to, someone should talk to Mr Fulton who had been his neighbor for 11 years. He made himself available at that point. It was decided

00:45:58.030 - 00:46:24.139

that he would contact him in some way. But it was also decided that uh we would have a kind of referendum which was to be in two parts. One, two questions were asked very simple question. Do you agree or approve? Do you approve of the method

00:46:24.649 - 00:47:02.209

in which the president was selected? And two, do you approve of the selection? Um But these questions were asked in departmental meetings the next morning Monday morning at 10, each department voting each member of each department, each department voting secretly on this and the students also

00:47:02.219 - 00:47:36.550

voted on it the same question. The results were never released and properly so pocket. I understand they were submitted to the board and they were submitted to Mr Masterson at all. Tuesday afternoon we received for his resignation. I feel sure, I feel certain that the result

00:47:36.570 - 00:48:04.649

of the referendum pro oh, it wasn't released. I think it was overwhelmingly opposed to both questions. I mean, they are not both, what parts, both parts there was there. Um Was there a change at some point in the wording of the uh second part of the

00:48:04.659 - 00:48:23.719

resolution? Uh when, when was the phrase under these circumstances added? Was it before, um, the departmental meeting or is that something that was just done on a student balance? I don't understand. I didn't, don't remember that being on our ballot there. Uh, this may have occurred

00:48:23.729 - 00:48:39.810

at some of the college meetings on Sunday night and I wasn't sure whether the change was across the board, uh, on the, on the second part of the, uh, of the referendum or, or what, but, uh, some of the, uh, ballots at least were changed to

00:48:39.820 - 00:48:56.800

read on the second part under the, under the present circumstances, I disapprove of the selection. I didn't, and the, and the phrase, uh, was added to that. Is that right? And I didn't hear it discussed. I was, I was at the Baker College meeting on Sunday.

00:48:57.489 - 00:49:12.629

I did not hear that. I don't remember hearing to discuss it at that. I heard that some of the, uh, people seem to think that they, they couldn't vote on it the way it was worth because they didn't personally know the incumbent. I mean, not the

00:49:12.639 - 00:49:35.790

incumbent but the candidate. But, uh, and so then it was changed to, uh, well, it could be ii, I didn't remember. Right. But the phrase is not prisoned in your department knowing, uh, the, uh, or sensing the mood of the faculty and the student. What would

00:49:35.800 - 00:49:56.530

you guess would be the, uh, percentage? Uh, uh, yes. On each part. Yes, we do approve. No, I'm sorry. Uh Well, no, we, we don't approve the other way. You know, the, uh, which way do you think the, how, what percentage of the majority knowing, knowing

00:49:56.540 - 00:50:26.959

the way we went? I would say 95% of gold at least nine both to procedure. I don't know. That's just a guess because nobody told me, were you under the impression that, um, that, uh uh, if the uh ballot or the referendum did not result in

00:50:27.189 - 00:50:47.770

Mason's appointment that perhaps the, uh the information might be released to the press then as a means of additional pressure or we didn't even discuss that. So I'd rather go down, didn't come up, questions, didn't come up in my presence. Well, your general, uh stealing money.

00:50:47.790 - 00:51:12.540

In fact, we were very careful to, uh huh. Right. Pronounce it. Not let any information out to the press about this because you felt it would. Well, we did. So, at that time, I know Mr Neck had heard about our Sunday afternoon meeting. He knows I

00:51:12.560 - 00:51:32.100

heard about it. I don't know, but he was up there, he was outside the door. Very nice man. Very good reporter. But we just had to tell him that we couldn't. He also showed up to a up meeting the next day. He's a very good reporter.

00:51:33.080 - 00:51:50.909

Keep in close touch. Not as he follows up. How was your general feeling about the, uh, situation Monday? Were you, uh, optimistic pessimistic? Did you think the ballot? Uh II, I guess you had a very good idea of how the ballot could go. I would go,

00:51:50.919 - 00:52:10.449

but I think I didn't know how to result, what the result would be. You know, what we can do with it. Did you think that Masterson might, uh, might resign? Well, I felt that, uh perhaps this was the only recourse us to make it apparent to

00:52:10.459 - 00:52:39.939

us to master human that under the circumstances, it would be better for your side. Indeed, this was, you know, Professor Fulton's Professor Fulton's, I did going to Chattanooga as I understand it. He did not go. He made two or three phone calls. Looking back on this,

00:52:39.949 - 00:53:33.300

uh this whole, uh four day weekend. Uh What are the decks? Do you think it had online? Why? I think generally the effect has not been good. I think la wonder morale at the university was very high. There was a and energetic feeling,

00:53:33.679 - 00:54:26.850

feeling of energy and feeling cohesion. We thought we knew where we were headed all. I think most of us working very hard. Yeah, like this has and a tendency reverse this idea. Where are we their own society? Do you think the various uh uh groups uh

00:54:26.860 - 00:54:50.580

in this uh event uh have learned very much from it? Do you think the board is learning anything from it? Do you think the faculty is learning? I think faculty has learned that uh we must have some in detriment for reflecting faculty opinion. I don't think

00:54:50.590 - 00:55:18.639

the faculty counsel is the place for the astro because it is mainly advisory. I considered my place before it by the president it to sell my serve term on the Factory Council. And it seldom, it seems to me seldom initiates and therefore we have no instrument

00:55:19.560 - 00:55:45.439

by which faculty depended expressed by which matters can, can be through which matters can be initiated. I think, uh the faculty feels now that such an instrument is, is very much needed. And indeed there is a, we went on foot to establish a fight Senate. I

00:55:45.459 - 00:56:14.250

have never had one before when I was the president of the chapter, the Rice Chapter of the a repeat during the last Anna 1960 61. Uh the a aup proposed to the administration and the acting president who was then chancellor pro that such a senate be

00:56:14.260 - 00:56:40.500

established. And we even described how it should operate, how we thought it should operate. And when uh chancellor I mean, when President Fitzer came on campus, I know if you asked me about this and I described to him our desires and wishes and why we thought

00:56:40.510 - 00:57:05.810

it was important. And he described to me his idea of what he called the Univers Committee on University Welfare, which we now have. Uh and it serves a very good purpose in the faculty may approach it with questions, with suggestions, but mainly grievances, you know, that

00:57:05.820 - 00:57:40.709

sort of thing, it does not act itself to initiate you. See, therefore, it uh it's not the same thing as faculty saying um are they less effective for? But as far as the faculty is concerned, I think this, this is uh been a definite uh result

00:57:40.719 - 00:58:06.530

of what happened. Baaup again, under the presidency of Professor Joe Wilson at the German Department proposed again a faculty senate and this time it was voted in the faculty meeting that the welfare committee would study it and make a, make a recommendation to the, to the

00:58:06.540 - 00:58:31.040

faculty. And I understand they're doing it. I'm doing it. I understand they're, they're making a very thorough study of possibilities and we'll come up with a recommendation. I think the board has learned anything from this uh episode. I can't answer that, I suppose intelligently, since I

00:58:33.010 - 00:59:11.659

talk to him, got it, I should hope they, they learn the faculty fields very strongly that we should be factored, should be consider the jo the president. I should hope the students are not and you see them, the students, those who were on that advisory committee

00:59:14.110 - 00:59:45.760

there, it is too young people. But as I say, I haven't talked to her, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with this. Well, perhaps, uh, there's one other thing, I mean, one should, uh, stay here. That is why my feeling about Mr Masterson

00:59:45.770 - 01:00:16.520

is whether you want this or not. Uh, I was, I, I didn't want to press you into saying anything you didn't want to say. But uh I, I think your views uh should certainly be on record. Well, I have no one, Mr Masterson for 20 years.

01:00:16.530 - 01:00:44.340

Indeed. He and I have been on cordial terms during that period and uh I have a high regard for him in those areas in which I think he is very well qualified and which I think can do a perfect job. Mainly I look upon him as

01:00:44.350 - 01:01:11.689

a very effective teacher. I think this is reflected in the support that he has from the alumni. The alumni remember him as the teacher of the freshman history course of the American. He is very good at it. But um no, I would have to leave to

01:01:11.699 - 01:01:33.419

others his ability. I mean, my judgment as to his ability as a scholar, I know that he has written one book, a biography of the first governor of Tennessee and I will blunt, which has been well received in this Southern History series that's published over at

01:01:33.429 - 01:01:56.100

LSU. He has also edited some of the way and papers, but I would have to leave two people who have no more knowledge of. So the history of an eye as to the quality of his scholarship. I know that as a teacher, he's very effective. Uh

01:01:56.110 - 01:02:27.159

He's also a very charming man. Oh, we're going to party with him or got a ball game with him a lot of fun. Uh I think the same praise cannot be. What color are they doing in his capacity as an administrator. I was chairman of the

01:02:27.169 - 01:02:51.340

English Department during the time when you were a part of the time when he was being humanities. Uh And without going into details, I will simply have to say that my relations with him at that time in that capacity led me to believe that uh he

01:02:51.350 - 01:03:17.469

had a disregard for due process. And indeed, I was impressed with the fact that the students after consultation with him for six hours or on that evening came out with exactly the same judgment. I was impressed with this because I had learned it after an acquaintance

01:03:17.479 - 01:03:47.429

of 20 years or during an acquaintance of 20. Therefore, when I say that uh I said earlier that uh the altercations he had with certain members of the faculty were not simply personal, they were substantive. They indicated that he did lack this regard for due process.

01:03:47.439 - 01:04:02.870

Which one must have in, in an administrative post, I don't know, vague in my mind, uh what you had in mind when he would, he would see where he wanted to go. And regardless of the fact that there was a committee set up to study this

01:04:02.879 - 01:04:26.489

question and make recommendations and so on, he would bypass the committee you see or he would operate not by consultation, open consultation with members of the the staff, but by talking to this man and this man and this man privately and so on, that can be

01:04:26.500 - 01:04:52.280

effective at times, but it also can at times be very ineffective because uh you're, you're likely to get uh instead of a consensus which can be arrived at in open discussion, you can get just simply very points of view which uh could be resolved in open

01:04:52.290 - 01:05:13.010

discussions. I don't know what this explains as a as a dean did. Uh was he ever guilty of not following the uh channels of communication such as uh was he ever guilty of bypassing department chairman on matters that uh that he should have put through them

01:05:13.020 - 01:05:35.050

instead of maybe going directly to one of their like? Ok. Well, he, in one particular case, he, as I say, he bypassed the uh committee and went directly to the president immediately after the same afternoon, the committee had had a meeting with him and the president

01:05:35.110 - 01:05:57.870

with which a recommendation had been made. Then he bypassed it and made another one sure, without, uh, without informing the committee that he was going to and I understand this more than one occasion, it was this kind of thing. I suppose it was a, you know,

01:05:57.879 - 01:06:33.979

he saw where he wanted to go, he would head in that direction regardless. Um, I think this is, this is a dangerous procedure because he may not be right. As a matter of fact, in this particular case, he was not right during uh because pictures r

01:06:34.090 - 01:06:56.260

were you ever aware of his or anything of this sort? Knock knock to my knowledge, I work with him. I was chairman for over seven years. Well, for 5/7 years here, I was chairman of the right. I always found that he was most willing to hear

01:06:56.270 - 01:07:20.149

to listen to, wouldn't always be. But I listen, consulted before he made a move. As a matter of fact, there was one move which he was going to make, which I very definitely disagreed with it. I told it, but I, to, to the department and the

01:07:20.159 - 01:07:54.750

department disagreed with it and he didn't do it reluctantly, but he didn't without any rank. I mean, he just, you know, all right, actually, in that case, he was right, he was just premature. That um is it the situation arise that deans and department uh chairman

01:07:54.760 - 01:08:19.529

um have a great deal of strength or uh has the strong presidency uh tended to diminish the uh the area of initiative that they can exercise. Well. It depends upon what you mean by strength. Uh, departmental chairman are chairman. They're not heads, uh, they don't make

01:08:19.540 - 01:08:43.108

decisions by academic fiat. You know, they have meetings, the report committees within the inter, I mean, uh department committees, uh then recommend to the chairman and then this is usually discussed in meetings of the department. Decisions are arrived at that way and then he, he makes

01:08:43.119 - 01:09:12.969

his recommendations on the basis of oh consensus. He may disagree. In which case he can make his disagree. Know, actually I've never had that happen. Do uh deans and department chairman do most of the recruiting or uh the the department department uh does the recruiting. The

01:09:12.979 - 01:09:32.149

chairman uh the way we worked it in English is that the chairman. So we have to appoint uh four or maybe two. Well, let's say two assistant professors. Well, the chairman will take what we call a recruiting trip in the fall and he will visit some

01:09:32.160 - 01:09:49.410

of the big graduate schools and he will interview the numbers of students. He will come back and recommend to the department. Well, I think John Doe is very good. He will have a complete dossier on John Doe and he will give the department the uh results

01:09:49.419 - 01:10:09.629

on the his impressions of the interview. He'll take notes during the have these type opens sent to the each member of the department. And then in a meeting, it will be decided. Well, maybe John Doe should pay us a visit. So we'll write John Doe and

01:10:09.640 - 01:10:27.399

ask him to come down for a couple of days visit. If it's a senior appointment, we used to invite the wives too. Um, come in, everybody gets to meet him and so on. And then we decide, should we or should we not make him an offer?

01:10:27.410 - 01:10:46.819

Then if we do decide to make him an offer, the chairman, then uh says to the dean who has also met him during his visit and the president has made, you don't use it. The chairman writes the dean and says we would like to an offer

01:10:46.830 - 01:11:26.669

that we suggest as a reasonable offer of surgery. Remember being in Doris, do I send it to a present president then submit it to the board actually? Ok. So which didn't accept the recommendation chairman? Well, that might be well screened. We all know that. Well, we

01:11:26.680 - 01:11:47.120

don't always, I mean, sometimes you make a mistake, the 20 man and the dean and the president can make a mistake. That's not his mistake. One of the important considerations uh in this whole thing was um ca uh something that we also have only barely touched

01:11:47.129 - 01:12:04.270

on and that is uh what you anticipated would be the result or the effect on rise, Masterson become president. Uh Would you like to elaborate on your impressions of uh what it was that you, that you appeared in this department in your professional life in the

01:12:04.279 - 01:12:38.180

first place, I think morale would have been very low. Um I think he would have had if he continued in the, in his, his penchant for operating extra division and extra departmentally and so on, he would have been faced with considerable uh vehement opposition. And you

01:12:38.189 - 01:13:13.319

can see the results of this if one doesn't need to elaborate the girl and uh resignation, resignation, loss of uh energy. Also. Good man. I probably also familiar with students that that was my fear. They say, well, maybe you wouldn't act that way. Well, we don't

01:13:13.330 - 01:13:34.220

know all we do. All we do know is pass the faults. Does anyone uh did anyone attempt to suggest any time during his four day weekend? That may be his experience at Chattanooga had taught him anything and we had notice this, nobody invented it. In other

01:13:34.229 - 01:14:16.399

words. Well, uh I think maybe Mr Allen suggested the possibility but there's no evidence way of knowing one way or the other naturally. But president there a long two years we did have the other. I uh remarked to a friend of mine after this was all

01:14:16.410 - 01:14:41.910

over. I caught him of all people, the Duke of Wellington after the battle of Waterloo. The next dreadful thing to about a one a battle lost is a battle won. And I felt this very strongly because I felt uh indeed a great deal of sympathy for

01:14:41.919 - 01:15:10.169

real Masterson. And his family. It must have been and emotional of evil. It must have been a terrible thing. I felt this all the way through. Were you, were you under the impression that this was something he very much wanted and had uh had wanted for

01:15:10.180 - 01:15:45.580

some? So I think you wanted it in 1961. I just think so. Ok, feeling about the audience is that the trouble is that he was never content to be, but he could be very well. And that he is a very good professor. This uh to get

01:15:45.589 - 01:16:23.649

a lot of ambition having uh worked very closely with both men. Uh which, which would you consider more uh authoritarian uh picture or that's good. The master my relations with Pitzer didn't leave that depression at all. I never uh when I think of some of the

01:16:24.479 - 01:16:52.770

objection that I made to see from him, any indication of uh recent, we agree to disagree in those cases, most of the time we didn't disagree. But uh when we did, there was never any resentment. I never felt that he was authoritarian. As I say, I

01:16:52.779 - 01:17:19.000

served on the, I served a term on the faculty council with him. I never saw him try to enforce his will on the, on the council. Was there anything about mattresses, the ideas on education that you disagreed with? Interestingly, uh I think Bill had a have

01:17:19.009 - 01:17:49.399

an idea, a very good idea of where the university should go. I think he, I think he understood what would make a good university, a great university. As I say, the difficulty was the methods that he chose to get there and you can't fight this or,

01:17:49.410 - 01:18:16.970

or, or rather you're always fighting it. And so that isn't to say that he was always right. None of us nobody is. But uh you can see, I think he did have a phone. That's some good ideas about what, uh constituted in a great university. Do

01:18:16.979 - 01:18:51.799

you think he just did not have the ability to carry out these, these deer, the ability or the proper attitude towards methods? One cannot ignore the fact that you have 280 professors on campus and a number of bright students who also have ideas appreciate and they

01:18:51.810 - 01:19:35.609

may at times be an opposition two year old. What did you understand to be is a attitude towards students? Uh, well, uh, depends upon, uh, the area about what you're speaking. Uh, I think those students who had these courses who sat with him under in the

01:19:35.620 - 01:20:07.049

course and these courses, um, like very much the kind of approach and the way lecture day, your attitude towards, I have heard, oh, a different description of his attitude from people who were associated with him. Say in college, they were, there were things that went on

01:20:07.060 - 01:20:44.359

in college which, uh, they questioned but certainly in his classrooms, in his classroom and I suppose in, in many other areas, his relations with students cardial but not always. Well, what, uh, would, uh, would he be the kind who, uh, would think that, uh, it would

01:20:44.370 - 01:21:07.470

be the function of a president to, to impose his, uh, ideas of morality on, uh, everybody under 25 by changing the open house rules or altering the liquor on campus, uh, policies which are in effect, uh, would, would it be this kind of authoritarian? Ok. Did

01:21:07.479 - 01:21:30.080

you hear about these accusations during the sporting weekend? That, uh, no, I didn't hear it if I did. I forgot if you hadn't heard it, uh, would you be inclined to believe it or disbelieve on the gladness of, you know, I can, well believe that, that,

01:21:30.100 - 01:21:53.649

uh, he might try to have it, not his way. I could believe that. What about things, uh, such as, uh, changing curriculum requirements, uh, loosening up degree requirements, allowing a great deal of more latitude in selection of courses? Well, I don't know. Uh, I think he

01:21:53.660 - 01:22:24.229

was probably a traditionalist in this respect, a message just simply this is based upon kind of scholar or teaching. I rather suspect he's a traditionalist of all though. Not, not hide back. I would, for example, I should think that he would welcome the fine arts department

01:22:39.879 - 01:22:58.500

in your, um, acquaintance with master. And, uh, well, you think that he had a very much in the way of growth potential? Would the student move into the last three years, have taught him anything. Would, would have, would it have made him aware of anything? But,

01:22:58.509 - 01:23:26.640

uh, he might not have been aware before, probably would have made him a bit more conservative. And that's just a guess with the, the proper response is, uh, uh, to pull in the range tighter. But that's just a guess. Well, because I haven't seen him since

01:23:26.649 - 01:23:53.479

this happened. So, I don't know, but it's, it's based on a long acquaintance though. And you, what is your reaction to the skin movement? Drop the p for you think in the long run it's uh so in the long run it's uh disruptive or uh no,

01:23:53.490 - 01:24:40.689

I'm certain that this right, they designed to be disruptive um or on the floor violence such matters as the students taking all the buildings and occupying offices and all the rest of it. It seems to me that that's not there the way to conduct down. I

01:24:40.700 - 01:25:17.189

do think that the students have legitimate complaints and I think that have a right of dissent. Thank you Supreme and heartening example. I believe dissent can be registered in the way in which it was registered on this camp. Why it wasn't picked up by the national

01:25:17.200 - 01:25:41.160

news media. No, except that there was no, probably the reason. But when you consider the fact that one of my uh as one of my colleagues in history said, this is the first time in the history of American Universities. When this had been done, it was

01:25:41.169 - 01:26:22.330

newsworthy. Certainly that kind of descent. I can't fault her but I default balance what B A building, forcing, being out of their offices and destroying files, the worst kind of anarchy it has had been publicized. It could serve as such a fine model for, uh, for

01:26:22.339 - 01:26:47.200

legitimate uh, avenues of, uh, and in that connection, I might say that, uh, the sds on this campus was stopped cold. Uh Nothing would have pleased them more than to see this appointment go through. That would have given them a platform from then on, there would

01:26:47.209 - 01:27:16.950

have been numbers of demonstrations and all sorts of things. This is not just uh passive statement. I think this is the truth, but they were very much disappointed that this didn't go. You say it would have provided you with agitation issues for much, much, too much

01:27:17.080 - 01:27:46.310

we can, that's not does this mean that you see very little chance uh of um things happening on this campus such as um oh has happened at Harvard or Columbia Berlin type one case within reason, rule out the possibility of things. Some of the things happening

01:27:46.319 - 01:28:08.220

on this campus, it's unreasonable to think that they might not, it would be reasonable to think that they could, we want to do is to try to avoid it. What we need is an instrument for trying to avoid. I realize I've taken up a lot of

01:28:08.229 - 01:28:12.750

your time. Was there anything else you wanted to add those over here? Well, I really appreciate you coming in with a.