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Today is April 22nd, 2025. My name is Parwana Karimi. I will be interviewing Dr. Duong today for her oral history on behalf of the Asian American Archives

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at Rice University. Dr. Duong, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you please state your name, where and when you were born and where did you—did your story begin?

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All right. Okay. My name is Wendy Duong. I live in Houston right now. But I was born in Hội An, a port town of South Vietnam.

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I was born, Duong Nhu Nguyet that's my Vietnamese name. And I spent my adolescence and teenage days in South Vietnam, in Hội An, where I was born. I left there when I was about four years old.

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And then we lived in Huế, the imperial city of South Vietnam. And then we moved to Saigon, which was lucky because we escaped, having to be in Huế during the Tết Offensive, one of the worst atrocities of the Vietnam

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War. So, I was in Saigon at the time, we were evacuated for America on April the 30th, 1975, when North Vietnam took over South Vietnam. Mhm.

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Nice. How would you describe your childhood and adolescence year and what are some special holidays, traditions, memories, and experiences you recall growing up? Okay. All right. My early

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childhood impression was bits and pieces of memory of Hoi An, now is a city for tourism. It's a beautiful port town at least a thousand years old.

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But I left there, although I was very proud of being born there and being associated with it via my birth. My parents were teachers of languages and literature in Hoi An. That's where they met.

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And then they had me there. And then my fond memory of Hue, the Imperial City, which was heavily damaged. The citadel and the royal palaces were damaged

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during the Tet Offensive. Now, if you get into or follow the Vietnam War as historical account from the U.S. Standpoint, you would learn about the Tet Offensive and all of

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that. But my memory of Hue was before the Tet Offensive, I wasn't there during the Tet Offensive, so childhood memory was in general, just beautiful of the quietness and beauty

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of Hue and the people who were surrounding me at that time. We had the lady who was in charge of the Girl Scout in Hue, and she gave me, picture and painting books and song books from

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France. And that was just marvelous. Of course, I lost it when we moved to Saigon and we lived in a housing apartment complex probably the only

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apartment complex built by the Catholic Church near a river, in Hue. So that was just lovely. [PK: Beautiful.] And then I-and then my father, my father came back from London.

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He had a scholarship to leave Hue for London, and I was there with my grandparents, my maternal grandparents. We got to visit-I got to visit their village,

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but I was just a little kid. But beautiful memory of the countryside there in the village. I got to see the poverty of peasants in Hue. And that was a lasting impression.

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I still remember to this day and how my mother taught me what that meant. The question of poverty in agricultural Vietnam, which was the very reason for the communist revolution there.

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All right. So-and I remember the church in Hue. I remember the temples, the Buddhist temples in Hue. So, we grew up with education given by the Catholic Church. I had piano lessons, but

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we are Buddhists so we got to go to temples. And from my perspective, there was never any conflict between the Catholic Church and the Buddhist church in Vietnam. However, in politics, there was a huge conflict leading to

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coup d'etat and assassination, all kinds of things. But in terms of my childhood, I did develop some unpleasant experience toward the adults. But apart from that, apart from that,

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I was trying to talk to my mother about how unhappy I was about the adults. But apart from that, Hue was beautiful. And then we moved to Saigon.

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That was very rough in the beginning, because Saigon was just the opposite of Hue, especially with the presence of the United States, mostly felt in Saigon. So it developed into an economic

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city, you know, there was an aura of rich people, poor people in Saigon, much more than in Hue, life was not as peaceful. I went to elementary school in Saigon, and I remember having to

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fight the boys to rescue my little brother. These were the small alleys of urban Saigon. Okay. And then the family was basically from my parents' side.

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My paternal grandparents life was much tougher, less protected than Hue, okay. But-but Saigon was my teenager experience, and that was fairly good because I did very well in

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school. Is it still going? Okay. I did very well in school. I took an exam. The country required a national exam to go from

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elementary school to junior high. I mean, little kids 10 or 11 years old having to sit for an exam in general topics from-to geography to history to literature, and

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then an exam on math and an exam on essay writing. Well, I took it and I passed with a very good grade. So I got admitted to one of the public schools in South Vietnam. Public schools are where you should go.

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The private schools are less quality. It's just the opposite of America. So then, I attended secondary school all the way to the 12th grade, and then I got the highest prize in the culture

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for—in the country for my age. I got the honor prize-the Presidential Honor Prize in Literature awarded by the President of South Vietnam. So I got that.

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But guess what? A month later, the communists took over and we were evacuated to America about three days before the surrender of South Vietnam. And I left my maternal

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grandparents behind because after the Tet Offensive, which was when battles occurred in Hue and there was a genocide, a massacre in Hue but my maternal grandparents were saved from that.

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They were safe in the countryside. And then they left Hue to go to Saigon. After the Tet Offensive, many people left Hue to go to Saigon for safety from the war. So then—but at the end of the

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Vietnam War in April of 1975, my maternal grandparents stayed behind. And that was the biggest heartbreak. I still haven't got over that. Even now some half a century later.

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I still-I still mourn when I think of that. And they eventually died in Vietnam. And so then after April, then we ended up in America. Great luck, great blessings there.

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I'm so glad you were able to make it. I'm so glad you were able to make it to the U.S. You touched on your parents' occupation a little bit [WD: Yes.] could you tell us more about their occupation after

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immigrating to the U.S.? And what are the some-what are some of the values and lessons your parents instilled in you? Okay. All right. Well, in Vietnam, they were college and

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high school teachers. All right. In America, we went back to the college town where my father was a Fulbright scholar in the 70s. So naturally, we went to the place where he was

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before, okay. And that was-and that is the college town of Carbondale in Illinois. And there, my mother had to go to work full-time to take care of the family, because my father was in academic studies,

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and so he couldn't find, an immediate position as a professor. So he went back to school for another PhD, and he had a graduate assistantship from that. All right. But that's not enough to feed a family of four.

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I'm the oldest with three siblings who needed to be in school. So my father- my mother went to work, not as a teacher, of course, but she took a factory job packing vitamin bottles

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that she was on a quota system, like, you had to pack X number of vitamin bottles to keep the job. And she was a tiny, skinny little person. You know, a school teacher.

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She weighed about 36kg. You know, about less than 90 lb. All right. But she took the assembly line job. And then I got admitted to the university, and I graduated

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from there with a degree in communication and journalism. My father got another PhD, and then she-at that time, she could quit her factory job, but she became sick. My mother had to deal with personal

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illnesses all her life, and she eventually passed away seven years ago. All right. But the beginning years in America were sweet. Not-not a whole lot of hardship compared to what it could have been if we

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stayed behind. And life in America was much, much better than middle class life in Vietnam. There was a difference in the standard of living. And I dropped out of college to work to help the family.

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So I took a job in Houston, and I was the representative for federal funding projects assisting the refugees in Houston. I did that for six months, and then I decided to return to-to-to Carbondale to finish my study for my bachelor's

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degree. And then after that, I got employed by the Houston Independent School District, and then I decided to go to law school. So that was the beginning of my career in America.

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But getting back to your questions on my family and my parents, my mother made a whole lot of sacrifice for us. And I think that's typical for immigrants, especially Asian immigrants.

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You know, the sacrifice that our parents had to make in our beginning days in America. I went through it. My father made a lot of sacrifices too. And we didn't know that at the time.

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But later then I realized that my father also had to quit his career as a writer and publisher of books and as a college professor in a tenured position.

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He wanted to stay in Houston at that time to keep the family together with my mother began-she began to get really sick. So, my father had to work.

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And so, he ended up becoming a certified teacher for the Houston Independent School District. So no more professorships. So that was a sacrifice as well.

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And of course, the salary of teachers anywhere in America, I think, has got to be improving. I do think that we need to pay our teachers, especially at elementary and secondary levels, much, much more money,

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especially in public schools too. But-but anyway, my parents made a lot of sacrifices for us. But relatively speaking, it's what they did was much, much better than what other immigrants had-had to do,

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you know, including my uncles and aunts. However, the success stories were worth mentioning within my own family as well. My uncle, who was a school principal in Vietnam,

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of course, had to give up his administration career and his teaching career. And he became self-employed. And he went from being

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a-a janitorial supervisor, where he ended up being a supervisor over something. But in order to supervise the janitors, I take it that he had to know how to do the work so he himself might be a

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janitor for a while. And then he was a swimming pool supervisor or security guard, and he was a security guard for school buildings. But while doing all of this job, he started to invest

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in real estate in Houston. Through the years of the great of the depression under President Carter, there was a housing crisis and houses in Houston dropped so low in prices.

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But he took advantage of that and did his investment, which in the beginning I thought was a crazy idea because he had to fix up like old beat-up houses and having to deal with tenants from all walks of life, and I just couldn't imagine how he could have

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done all of that. His English was never at-the at your level or even my level, so he kind of struggled along. But he did it. And guess what?

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Today he's a millionaire. [PK: Wow.] Yes. So that's one success story there. There were others in my extended family as well. People becoming millionaires just

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from sheer hard work. I mean, it's hard work it's not just good luck, because there was no good luck for immigrants with limited English. It's all with your two hands. You didn't rob the bank.

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You didn't become involved in criminal activity. So it-it's just sheer hard work. Thank you for sharing that story. I mean, your story is also a symbol of success and hard work

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as an Asian American immigrant in the U.S. [WD: yes.] I want to ask, when you arrived in the US, what hopes did you hold for your new chapter in your life? And how has your percep-perception of the U.S.

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Has changed over the years? Yes. Okay. Back in Vietnam, growing up, especially during my teenage days where I started to have a lot of activities, including learning

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at the Vietnamese American Association that was like Alliance Française for the French. You know, each city has a, an alliance association for the French. Okay. So for-for America, it's the Vietnamese American

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Association. And so I did a lot of activities there. My concept was great country; superpower; so much to learn from; so much to

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welcome in developing countries; great image. Never any image of what the Communist bloc had made America out to be like the imperialists,

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the exploiters of labor all around the world. No, I never got that impression. And I knew very early in life that that was just propaganda. Okay? I didn't have any contact with

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Americans except through maybe a couple of classes at the Vietnamese American Association, mostly taught by Vietnamese who speak-who spoke fluent English. Occasionally I had an American, you know, just

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maybe for 1 or 2 sessions. I attended, maybe 1 or 2 Christmas get togethers at various offices that belong to America, mainly the embassy, the defense attaché's

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office, where my-my aunt worked. Very few contacts with America, except for American TV during the war. After Americans withdrew their troops from Vietnam, there was no more American TV.

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But I literally grew up with American TV. All of the great shows like Bewitched; i don't know if you-you-you-you have no idea what it was about. Just wonderful sitcoms, you know? So I grew up with that, and I actually learned American English from

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watching American TV in Vietnam. There was another show called combat. It's about World War Two soldiers, American soldiers. You said you have no idea what that is.

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Okay. But these are-these were wonderful American TV in black and white at that time. After the fall of Vietnam, I think it's a mixed perception about America that I begin to learn

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that because of real politic, I mean, the interest of the nation, what policy makers decided for their interests, for their nation is not the ideals for internationalism anymore, but it's the

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self-interest of the people who act for the nation. They're going to do what is best for their interest. So, I was starting to have that perception, which was discussed in the academic

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studies at the college level and graduate school level in America. So, it's subject to criticism by scholars and students of political science, okay. But I started to change my naive, idealistic

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perception about America based on what I saw and studied and experienced. But overall, I still look at America as the opinion

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leader that the opinions held by America and Americans can still be setting the examples for the rest of the world that the rest of the world still look up to America in so

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many ways, despite what has happened in politics and history. The failure, if we may call that, of American involvement in Vietnam is one place where some paranoia

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and skepticism might have been raised about the role of America as a superpower or in world politics. But still, there is a belief in America that I hold on to the pride about being a citizen of the

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United States. The good luck that we have had in being-in being able to be part of the evacuation, which was really America's keeping up its promise to its employees and the allies

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during the Vietnam War. The-the promise was fulfilled, not for everybody, but at least for us, the lucky ones at the end of the Vietnam War. And I saw the efforts of what America went through to take

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care of us during our first days in America, at the refugee camps and out of the refugee camps. But even with the help from the country and the administration in terms of

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refugee resettlement, still I will say that at the end of the day, the immigrants make their own fate. That is our hard-our hard work that brought about what our lives are today in America, with a

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little help in the beginning with an organized program for resettlement and evacuation. After that, being in America means you are, you learn to be independent, to take care of yourselves,

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and then to make a contribution to greater causes and to help others because others have helped us in the past. I really believe in that, and our story is an

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example of that. You have a great story and thank you for the answer. I want to ask going-going to your career journey, I want to ask what does the law mean to you?

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And could you describe your career in law? My career. Okay. All right. Now. To-to add to my previous sentence about the image of

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America. The story of my career is also an example of what I consider to be a work in progress in America today. It's been much, much better and less talked about. But still, the question of

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race and gender relations in America, I think, is a work in progress. Just because today things have changed. My career is one example to both the pros and the

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cons. And I will tell you for purposes of this interview, my life story or my career is the very example of race and gender relations in America. That progress has been made since the days of Martin Luther

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King, but still, it is a work in progress and we should never take it for granted. We have to be mindful that it is always there, because the question of prejudice is kind of in human in the-in-in-in the human

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mind and body. So, we need to be aware of it. We need to continue making sure that the goals are the reality and that we-we are for equality in race and gender.

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And America should set the standard and the lesson of progress and not to be behind in that. So back to my career, I graduated from college with a degree in journalism and communication,

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and I graduated summa cum laude. Which to me, it was just something that I had to do because it's meant to be. It's not-it's not something that-that

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I should even talk about. It's what I expected of myself. And to me, it's not all that difficult. If you study, you will get something.

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I mean, most likely we get B's instead of A's because we enjoy watching TV or something besides studying. If you really want the A's, you put your effort into it. You will get the A's. You know, sometimes you pick a course that you dislike

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so much. Then no matter what you do, you try is not going to happen. So you drop it because there's freedom of choice in America. Okay, so my academic records to me are just something that should happen regardless,

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you know? I was the top student in Vietnam, so naturally, I should be the top student in my classes in America. That's the least I would expect of myself, you know? Nobody had to push me, okay.

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So, I did well in school and then while in college, I got my first full time job as the representative of immigrants in Houston. I went to Houston for six months, got this job,

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did it for six months, then quit to go back to school. So I enjoyed that job. But to me, it was an easy job because how much did one have to try to help people who were just like you?

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You know, it's very easy. Whatever I went through, they're going through it now. So naturally, I had to help them, and then I got paid. I mean, it's not that—it was a big salary to me at that time,

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since in school I was working at minimum wage to be a student writer for the campus newspaper. And I-I worked and worked and worked, and I got paid the minimum to do my work as a reporter because I was learning

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my career. So, all right but so I got paid much more in the Houston job for six months, and that helped me help my family since my father, my-my mother was working in a factory during our first three years in America.

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Anyway so, and then after that, I got recruited to work for a public relations firm, because of my journalism and communication degree, I got that job as easy.

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I went to the interview. They offered me the job right away. But come to think of it, if you had a school record in journalism, the field that they needed for their communications firm,

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they specialize in media programs for businesses. They found a college graduate with a straight A transcript. And no problem in communication or the English language.

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Of course they would hire you right away. So in the beginning of my career, there was no issue of race or gender or prejudice at all. You know, they got a good deal.

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Why-why shouldn't they hire a minority woman if they had a good deal? So got that job, I worked there and promotions, of course. And one of the account executives offered me a job in New York City, which was the

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top tier for communication and journalism students to be in New York City. I had no idea what it meant to be in the Big Apple. To me, it's just a job that required me to move,

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and I didn't want to move. I wanted to be here with my siblings and my parents. So why should I move? So I turned it down. And at-and at work, people just looked stunned and I didn't even

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understand why they got stunned. It's natural for me to want to stay in Houston with my-my parents, but it was the wrong career move. All right. So I stayed here and while I was working in

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communication in Houston, having turned down the opportunity to be in the Big Apple, I got recruited by the Houston Independent School District, and that was my first executive job. They interviewed me and they saw that I had something to offer,

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so they made up a job to hire me to fit my background because an administrative or executive position in the Houston Independent School District, which is an educational institution, really didn't need to hire a communications

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major. So but they-but they saw something. So they-so the school executive at the administration building here in Houston, the building is now gone. It was a beautiful building.

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So actually, I have become the witness of the development of our city, Houston- beautiful administration building for the Houston Independent School District. They made up a position and the pay was higher

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because I was underpaid at the-at the public relations firm that I didn't even know that I was underpaid. I thought I was just lucky to have a job that paid that much. My salary was $10,000 a year, so

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it was big at that same time—at that time, compared to my mother's salary working in a factory environment at major manufacturing corporation, still. But once I started working,

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then my mother didn't have to work. All right. But then she got sick with cancer. [PK: I'm Sorry]. So then I-and at that time, I had decided that I would go to law school. Why did I decide to go to law school?

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I thought about a legal career in Vietnam because I was good at public speaking. In Vietnamese high school, I was voted to become the contestant for a rhetorics

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competition in English, which meant that you had to give a speech in English. So I got voted by the school to be the representative for that competition. Of course, it never took place because the communists came over and took the country.

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But it's all one country now. North and south was gone. Okay, it's now one country under communism, and it has diplomatic relations with the United States.

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But getting back to my career, the-so I left the less paying job to go to work for the Houston Independent School District. Then I decided to go to law school, but that meant I had to go to law school at night.

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So I combined law school at night and the executive job at the Houston Independent School District while my mother was diagnosed with cancer. So, the nursing for my mother, which

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was unfortunately kept to a minimum. My mother ended up taking care of herself, really, with two years of chemo therapy. If you ask me today, who are the heroines in my

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life? I would say my two grandmothers and my mother. I put them above my father and my two grandfathers. Because without the women and the women and her

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sacrifices, the man, even in the family system, couldn't get very far. All right. So all of them made sacrifices for me and all of us, my siblings and all that.

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But I would say my-my heroes in my life were my mother, my two grandmothers and my aunt, who really was the person who caused us to be evacuated by the United States at the Communist takeover,

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you know, right at the time of the Communist takeover. My aunt was an employee of the Defense Attaché's office under the US government, part of the embassy in Vietnam at the fall of Saigon.

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Okay. So-so, then I decided to go to law school, and that was law school. And my mother nursing herself under chemotherapy-therapy with me as the primary

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responsible person that I took her to her chemo sessions and all of that, plus the full time job for the Independent School District. But the job was under control because I've proved myself with the administration, and they knew that I was in law school at

00:38:22.840 - 00:38:37.400

night. They-they kind of admired that because, you know, I mean, law school at night and going to school. So they supported me in going to law school. But naturally, after I graduated from law school,

00:38:37.400 - 00:38:57.810

then I quit the Houston Independent School District. I could have stayed with it for a career with the law school. But I decided not-not to in order to really experience being a lawyer, okay. So then-then I took my first

00:38:57.810 - 00:39:16.730

law job when I graduated, and that was the judicial clerkship for for the federal court, which was like the extension of law school to build up your credentials and experience in litigation with the federal court. From-from the federal clerkship, I

00:39:16.890 - 00:39:36.130

joined the top law firm based in Washington, D.C. then after that, a series-a series of law firms, all top ranked in the United States, and I can tell you that it was not going to the zoo

00:39:36.170 - 00:39:51.780

or going to the theater working for these law firms. I mean, they really worked you, you know. The other alternative was to do what many Asian American lawyers have done, and that it was to go

00:39:52.780 - 00:40:09.940

start—to go starting a law firm and make money serving your people. Many people have done that, including our former city council member, Mr. Gordon Quan, who was also an interviewee here,

00:40:10.500 - 00:40:24.180

okay. But I didn't choose that route. I chose to work for the big firms in America. And I finished, like, with four of them consecutively, that made up my career.

00:40:24.180 - 00:40:39.700

And then I went to work for Mobil Oil. They sent me back to Vietnam to negotiate the first petroleum exploration contract with the new socialist government in Vietnam.

00:40:39.700 - 00:40:55.310

So that was my homecoming as a lawyer after 20 years of absence, where I was and have since been a citizen of the United States. Okay, so that's the summary.

00:40:55.310 - 00:41:08.710

And then after I did all of that, the law practitioner for a big firms and corporations, I then quit it all with the intention to write. But I took a law professorship.

00:41:10.510 - 00:41:29.750

To do that but-but misfortune struck again with my mother having survived her cancer. She recovered, had a fairly good life for years, for decades. But then she became ill again and I quit it all.

00:41:29.750 - 00:41:48.150

I resigned from the law professorship to be back in Houston. The main job then was to fill in the blank and be the caregiver for my parents, which I did until their passing. Of course, my siblings were supposed to help me,

00:41:48.150 - 00:42:03.590

and they did, but sometimes they took the wrong approach. So I still had to bear the emotional burden and to fill in the blank in terms of parental caregiving.

00:42:03.790 - 00:42:23.390

You know, to look for help in senior care is very difficult. I think that is really the challenge for communities, especially for us, Asian Americans, where our moral values, our ties to our family are different from

00:42:23.430 - 00:42:37.350

the mainstream model for other Americans. For Asian Americans, there's a special meaning, special norm, special value attached to caring for the old.

00:42:37.390 - 00:42:54.840

Yes I agree [WD: Yeah.] I agree as Asian Americans, we expect our children to care for our parents. But I want to touch on your inspiration to pursue law. Where did it start? Were there any specific childhood memories,

00:42:54.880 - 00:43:11.040

adolescence experiences, mentors, friendships, or realizations that prompted you to pursue this field? How has your identity influenced this choice? Oh, tremendously, consciously and unconsciously.

00:43:13.240 - 00:43:32.560

If you interview a second generation Asian American that has never spent any time within the culture, maybe you will get a different picture. But for me, my identity has been built

00:43:33.760 - 00:43:53.210

as a Vietnamese living in Vietnam and part of the evacuation. So I've seen both sides of the-the ocean. So my experience may be a little bit different from those who haven't had that much connection to the homeland and the

00:43:53.210 - 00:44:11.130

family system as it was on the other side of the ocean. But I was so, and I still am, so emotionally attached to my grandparents, like, I live with their memory. And I still

00:44:12.690 - 00:44:29.130

mourning in a way that each time that the opportunities arise for me to think about my grandparents, I live it all over again. It's never a question of oh, I've forgotten because it's too long ago.

00:44:29.330 - 00:44:46.900

There are certain things like my grandmother's death, my grandfather's death in Vietnam are the stories that were told to me about what happened in North Vietnam, which I believe for Chinese Americans would be similar to what

00:44:46.900 - 00:45:03.940

went on in China before 1949, you know. So parents or grandparents in mainland China, I think there are similarities there. But so the question of identity is very important to me,

00:45:03.940 - 00:45:19.580

and I live it. It's not something that I consciously had to do. I didn't really have any choice. I am me and I embrace myself. I'm proud of myself. And so I—the identity is naturally

00:45:19.580 - 00:45:34.780

there in my approach to what my career or my life and I took a setback because of that. But I don't regret because you can't be anything

00:45:36.540 - 00:45:52.350

other than being yourself. You know, you have to embrace yourself and accept it and draw your strength from it. And even if you lose something in the process, I could have made much more money; I could have accepted a

00:45:52.350 - 00:46:11.070

different lines of work; but that should not be items for regret because you can't stop being yourself. So it's not a question of the right or wrong decisions. It is in looking back, but in general, it

00:46:11.070 - 00:46:27.510

is the question of being yourself. So when you have to be yourself, then you-you don't regret and you don't look back and say, oh, I should not have done that, because it's, like, if I hadn't done that, then I wouldn't be myself,

00:46:27.550 - 00:46:42.560

you know? So to me, it's-it's just natural. And I accept the consequence. If that means that today I didn't get to do ABC, I didn't have as much money or prestige or fame.

00:46:42.600 - 00:46:56.520

Fine. You know, I get myself, you know, so we move forward. And to me, going forward means I focus on my writing, because that's what I love to do all my life. Mhm.

00:46:57.880 - 00:47:11.120

I also want to touch on your inspiration for Law. What inspired you to pursue law? Who-who are my role models or? What inspired you to pursue law?

00:47:11.240 - 00:47:27.120

Were there any friends, any family members that made you motivated to pursue law? A law career? Oh, the law career? [PK: Yes.] Okay. I chose law because at that time,

00:47:27.120 - 00:47:44.530

it seemed to be the challenge. You know, not many Asian Americans, especially women, went into law at that time. There was the practical consideration that I might be unique

00:47:44.530 - 00:48:02.810

if I was in a profession with so few of us, you know, it turned out to be true but it-it was an overkill. It didn't matter whether you were the first or not. You know, really, it's just being yourself, you know,

00:48:02.850 - 00:48:17.010

nobody would do you a favor and hire you if you're incompetent, if you are the first or not, it didn't matter. You had to be. You had to convince them that you are competent and live up to that representation.

00:48:17.210 - 00:48:37.700

And the only way to do that is through hard work and applying your brain, you know, just put your brain into the job. All right. So the inspiration comes from being myself and what I have gone through, the

00:48:37.700 - 00:48:53.460

values that I carry with me from being myself. So really, you become your own inspiration, because being the first also means that you don't know where to get it. Exactly. So you get it from yourself.

00:48:53.500 - 00:49:09.900

All right. But I would say that all of the people that I've worked with at various places who recognize my contribution and give me the promotion, they become the inspiration when they give me the promotion,

00:49:09.900 - 00:49:29.620

because if people don't believe in you, they're not going to give you the promo-promotion. No-nobody does you any favor and you don't have to do anything to get it, except your own willingness to work hard

00:49:29.620 - 00:49:46.190

and and your ability to make a contribution, which is proven by the time they give you the-the promotion or decided to hire you. All right, the inspiration is needed when you do something extra on your own.

00:49:46.230 - 00:50:04.750

For example, my personal commitment to a literary career that I have to get from somewhere, and I got it from people that I don't know. In terms of writing, I got it from two writers whom I don't know at all.

00:50:05.390 - 00:50:20.670

It's Amy Tan and Maxine- Maxine Hong Kingston, because they were the first to make a name for Asian American writers. They are both of Chinese descent, so I didn't know them at all.

00:50:20.670 - 00:50:38.360

But because they made it, they became my inspiration, you know? So that's one example of where the inspiration came from. I want to ask, you've worked for so many years in law and policymaking. What are some lessons you have learned?

00:50:38.560 - 00:50:53.080

What are some principles that guide your work and career? And what has been the most rewarding aspect of your career? What is the most rewarding aspect? [PK: Yes]. The most rewarding aspect-aspect has been

00:50:53.520 - 00:51:06.800

the job offers and the promotions because it's so concrete. You know that it came. The problem is in turning it down and not pursuing it by turning it down.

00:51:06.800 - 00:51:23.000

But again, it goes back to the question of not being so harsh on yourself in terms of the decisions you make. Because when you make that decision, whether it's right or wrong for your own sake, you're being yourself.

00:51:23.200 - 00:51:42.850

You know, I don't realize the importance of the dollars, you know, but that's because I was myself, you know, I was born into and raised to be a person who put values that are not mercenary at

00:51:42.850 - 00:51:59.290

the top of the list. And so I reject money in order to pursue something. It could be just the bubble somewhere, but it's what I believed in at the at that time. And so, as I said, by being myself, I made the wrong

00:51:59.290 - 00:52:16.050

decision. So you didn't blame yourself for just being yourself, you know, but that's the disadvantage of being the first, because you don't make the wise decision for yourself by being yourself, since you didn't have the benefit of experience or mentorship.

00:52:16.290 - 00:52:35.140

But looking back, I would have invested more in mentorship. And really, my advice to younger folks, is that you really have to spend the time on developing mentorship,

00:52:35.140 - 00:52:52.300

in that you try to keep up with the people whom you knew through various walks of time and really try, you know, you spend just make a point each day you call two people or you write two people to keep up with them during the years.

00:52:52.500 - 00:53:07.140

That's your network of mentorship. I didn't do that. So I lost contacts with people and that, and there's a price that you have to pay for that, and that is you have your own self as your mentor

00:53:07.420 - 00:53:22.700

because you have it kept up with your mentor throughout the years. But the reward has been the promotion and the-the job offers that I got. Those were the concrete rewards of how you've done well

00:53:23.780 - 00:53:39.010

in your career and Especially in the law. Yes. Very good advice. Oh, and I became-I became the first judge in America for Vietnamese.

00:53:39.010 - 00:53:56.820

[PK: Impressive] So that came—I didn't even really have to struggle or fight for that. It came so naturally and I accepted it. But that meant a lot of work, though, since I was practicing law in

00:53:56.860 - 00:54:12.980

the Ninth Circuit, which was the federal court in California. I still did that. And then I got a statutory exemption to stay to-to sit as a judge in Texas because it's the state court system, the municipal court system.

00:54:13.580 - 00:54:26.790

While I was practicing in a different jurisdiction, a different circuit in California. So the state legislature in Texas gave an exemption for lawyers to do that. Oh, yes.

00:54:27.190 - 00:54:44.630

Since you touched upon your judgeship, I want to ask as a trailblazing woman of Asian diaspora and woman of color, how do you see the value of your work in the community? What does this journey of law mean to you personally and for the Asian

00:54:44.630 - 00:55:00.430

diasporic community? The role model aspect. I could have done more by keeping up with people, because I'm sure that a lot of people wanted to look me up just

00:55:00.630 - 00:55:20.230

for talking. And I didn't do enough of that because I ran out of time. But I did a whole lot of community service. I mean, I responded to every single invitation to speak to students and community groups.

00:55:20.270 - 00:55:37.720

There was nothing that I turned down, and I still didn't think that I did enough because there were students from those speaking engagements. There were students who sought me out on an individual basis, and I did not follow up with them.

00:55:37.760 - 00:55:54.520

And that was if-if there was a regret, that's the regret that I should really have been of help to the young women who sought me out. And I didn't do that. Like, for example, one of them took me to the airport after a speaking

00:55:55.960 - 00:56:15.600

engagement and in the car, and she was an officer of the student association in order to have the contact with the speaker. And she started talking to me on a personal basis, and I should have stayed in touch with her and responding to

00:56:15.680 - 00:56:32.050

her in these personal matters, because that was my personal responsibility. But I didn't do that because I was so busy. And those are examples of the regrets that I have today. That's the only regret that I should have paid more attention to the

00:56:32.050 - 00:56:48.690

individuals who sought me out. There was another woman in Houston who looked me up and sought me out. Two women, as a matter of fact, the first one to get advice for her daughters,

00:56:48.970 - 00:57:06.530

for a law career. And I didn't follow up with her. I responded, but I could have done more, you know. And the second woman, her child, her son, was killed by the skinhead, race

00:57:06.530 - 00:57:22.980

discrimination. A medical student was killed by the skinhead. This was like in the 90s. And she looked me up and and I did not respond to her because at that time I was a judge. And I told her that as a judge I could not comment

00:57:23.540 - 00:57:39.860

on individual cases and I couldn't be of help to her. Because of my judgeship, I could not get involved in private matters. [PK: Yes.] In looking back, I regretted that tremendously.

00:57:39.860 - 00:57:55.700

I felt that I had let my people down. Where I was needed the most was on this individual basis, person to person. And they looked me up and I did not respond because of these reasons.

00:57:55.700 - 00:58:14.060

For-for example, for the skinhead issue, the the murderer, I was a judge and I couldn't get involved, but I could have been involved as Wendy Duong to give her the comfort, she lost her son, a medical student, getting killed by the skinhead.

00:58:14.540 - 00:58:23.270

You know, I could have just said, no, you're calling me, you're calling Wendy Duong. I'm here to comfort you. I could have done that.

00:58:23.270 - 00:58:38.110

Instead of having this judgeship hat over me to tell her that I can't comment or can't help you with the private matter. You see? So those are the little incidents.

00:58:38.150 - 00:58:54.390

I mean, they're little, but they're not little. Those are the few incidents where I truly regret. And if I-and now with my writing, if there are opportunities like that again, this time I-I react to the individual.

00:58:54.390 - 00:59:09.350

I have to, you know. So I mean, those moments are tough, but you still have shown that you are so committed to help the community in any way you can. Oh, yes. Well, all my life I've committed to helping

00:59:09.350 - 00:59:26.600

people for individual matters, not just for the name or institutionally. You know, I have been doing that in the pro bono cases that I worked on, which I didn't advertise or talk about to Vietnamese Americans.

00:59:26.640 - 00:59:43.720

They most of them don't know, but I did. And that's a matter of public record because of the litigation. I mean, the last pro bono case that I did was decades ago. I haven't been able to when-when I don't practice

00:59:43.760 - 01:00:01.720

law, then I'm out of touch with legal matters. So I haven't done any pro bono matters. Well, in fact, the last one without litigation that was done in-in the 2020s. So that was

01:00:02.520 - 01:00:15.850

kind of quite recent. I had to help them because if not, then they would have gone to a lawyer and that lawyer would take one third of their recovery. So I said, okay, I help you, you know.

01:00:15.890 - 01:00:30.530

And it's difficult because if it hadn't been difficult, then the lawyers out there would have taken the case. You see, it's difficult. But I got them something. I mean, it was a surprise because I almost gave up.

01:00:30.810 - 01:00:44.330

I thought, you know, they're not going to pay. And you have to sue them. If somebody doesn't pay to settle the case, you have to sue them. And then those clients are too poor

01:00:44.530 - 01:00:57.890

to sue. And it needs a lawyer who will take a contingency fee. But, you know, at the last minute, I kept trying. And finally I got them something. So that was my last pro bono person.

01:00:57.930 - 01:01:10.730

That is very admirable. [WD: Yeah.] I want to ask, what legacy do you want to leave in the legal and academic communities? I'm glad you asked, because that is going on right now in my

01:01:10.730 - 01:01:27.500

life, and I would like to keep a copy of the the tape if Rice would give it to me. Okay. Because right now I am doing what I hope to be my legacy. I'm starting a series called Vietnamese

01:01:27.540 - 01:01:44.540

America: Voices Forgotten. Okay. So I'm gathering all of the voices and the stories that nobody wants to listen to anymore because of the timing factor, for example.

01:01:44.860 - 01:02:03.180

For example, boat people from Vietnam - that shocked the conscience of the world in the 1980s, the 1990s, up to the 2000 with refugee camps in Asia. All right. But nowadays, it's old news.

01:02:03.180 - 01:02:17.790

So nobody wants to be reminded of the time when they were miserable at the refugee camps or didn't have a dime and didn't get to go to America. You know, but it's part of history.

01:02:17.790 - 01:02:38.190

So I'm compiling this series called Vietnamese America: Voices Forgotten, where I tell the stories of Vietnamese in poetry, and it's my poetry. I've been reading so much of my own poetry

01:02:38.470 - 01:02:56.190

that this interview is a nice break. I mean, I worked, I stayed up all night, every night because I had to negotiate and coordinate just a bunch of administrative tasks

01:02:56.190 - 01:03:14.160

for my book to be published, because my publisher is like a small independent press, and the owners are typically running around with thousands of of tasks on their own.

01:03:14.400 - 01:03:31.080

So the author has to step in because it's her book. And so I've been doing all kinds of things while reading my poetry. I am so sick of my poetry, you know? I mean, I've never had to read my own poetry so

01:03:31.080 - 01:03:44.040

much in my entire life. With poetry, you make it and you put it aside. You know, you don't want to, like, go read your poetry over and over again. I've been doing it for two years now.

01:03:44.800 - 01:04:00.200

And one problem after another. I have people who disappeared on me after taking my publisher's money. I have publishers who dissolved the company because they-they don't like it anymore.

01:04:00.480 - 01:04:11.290

You know, it's a breach of contract. I've had to deal with all of that. And now, the first book is going to be out, hopefully in another ten days.

01:04:11.450 - 01:04:28.170

And that's my legacy. It's-it's the whole history of the 50 years of life of Vietnamese Americans. What they have gone, had to go through in terms of

01:04:28.210 - 01:04:46.970

historical events. I'm doing this chronology by way of poetry. And then the poetry book is embellished with my paintings. And I taught myself to paint, and I even

01:04:48.010 - 01:05:04.490

improvised my own material and method, like, I don't do oil for this because it takes too long to dry and I don't have a studio. So I developed my own method of creating my paintings for the book.

01:05:04.970 - 01:05:23.890

[PK: Wow.] You know, so it's all, like, me and my poetry. But--and it's a series of five books. So now the first book, after two years, we went from 65 poems to 45 down to 36,

01:05:24.170 - 01:05:40.170

down to 18, and now it's down to nine. But it's still, I hope, a good book. So well, I send you the e-book version to as an attachment or an exhibit to

01:05:40.210 - 01:05:57.570

my-my interview. And actually, I meant to take advantage of the interview to tell you about this-this series of poetry, painting books called Art Book. It's bilingual.

01:05:58.570 - 01:06:12.940

The poems will be in English and Vietnamese. I composed them simultaneously because I'm not a translator. I don't like translation and I don't translate my own poetry. To me, it's impossible.

01:06:13.100 - 01:06:27.340

It's either you-you-you compose it in English, and then you set it aside, you know what you want to say, and you compose in Vietnamese. But to have to sit there and translate, it doesn't.

01:06:29.140 - 01:06:41.660

It has no appeal to me. And I'm not a translator. I don't even like it. I mean, I listen to the translators or interpreters at the UN, and I think to myself,

01:06:41.700 - 01:06:55.060

this is exhausting. I'd rather, like, speak English or I forget about English and I go to a group of Vietnamese. Then I speak Vietnamese. But to go back and forth, you know, like what the interpreters

01:06:55.060 - 01:07:10.550

do at the UN, I thought that was just—it's not something that I'm inspired to do. I look forward—your publishing initiatives, seem really interesting and exciting, and I look forward to reading your book.[WD:

01:07:10.710 - 01:07:22.750

Yes.] I do agree that sometimes there are things that get lost in interpretations because you can't just translate something like thoroughly to the other language. Yes.

01:07:23.430 - 01:07:34.320

I want to--you mentioned your books. I actually searched some of your other books, like daughters of the River Huang. [WD: Yes.] Your poems that have won international book awards?

01:07:34.320 - 01:07:47.710

[WD: Yes.] I want to ask, what do you hope to achieve through your creative writing? How and how has your writing been able to address the lack of representation of Vietnamese voices in authorship?

01:07:48.070 - 01:08:05.800

Yes, I—there have been many authors who are Vietnamese American, but I don't think we have had somebody with footing in two cultures simultaneously, or the life experience that I've had.

01:08:06.480 - 01:08:23.960

So it's either the person is—was born and raised in America, looking at the other side through their parents or somebody from Vietnam whose work is translated for an American public.

01:08:24.520 - 01:08:42.200

I'm in between two worlds, and I can pull both worlds together in the historical and political context. So I think my position is unique, and I hope to bring that forward, to diversify and enrich the

01:08:42.240 - 01:08:59.480

literary scene. And I think there is a place for me. What I've done in the past is, to quote, degrade my literary career down to the least priority because of the ethical commitment to the law.

01:08:59.650 - 01:09:16.570

You can't be a lawyer and do only half of the job. You can practice part time, which is unlikely for lawyers working for big firms and corporations like myself. Okay, you can't represent ExxonMobil and say,

01:09:16.570 - 01:09:25.050

oh, I'm only doing it part time. Sorry. Don't give me any more. No, you can't, you know. So it's always that my literary

01:09:27.370 - 01:09:45.570

career or that part of me has to be suppressed and put second place compared to the law career. And it has nothing to do with what I desire, you know? So now is the time, with my retirement, now is the time to

01:09:45.610 - 01:10:02.740

put the literary career first and do it with a sense of mission, a sense of community, voices forgotten after 50 years. Some voices are I've forgotten. But they need to be heard and they need to have their

01:10:02.740 - 01:10:21.140

place in the US historical landscape. Now, the same thing must have happened with Chinese Americans or Korean Americans, and I haven't done any research into that to find out.

01:10:21.340 - 01:10:39.740

So sometimes if you know, we can have a conversation and I would love to learn, you know, what happens to the Chinese or the Koreans who kind of transcend both cultures and both coasts, you know, the Atlantic coast and the Pacific

01:10:39.740 - 01:10:53.660

coast. What happened to them? Are they represented in literature? You know, there-there have been so many books written by Chinese Americans, Chinese English,

01:10:55.020 - 01:11:07.350

Chinese Europeans. And I've read some of them, you know. But the overall complete picture I don't have yet. And I would like to find out. Mhm.

01:11:09.150 - 01:11:27.710

Awesome. How do you identify yourself ethnically? How do I identify myself at this point? I'm a lawyer by my license, but a writer by commitment.

01:11:28.150 - 01:11:42.630

And that's what my job is going to be totally unpaid from this point. I pay myself. So, [PK: Yeah.] I paid myself, meaning I don't give myself a paycheck. I just eat less in order to write more.

01:11:42.870 - 01:12:00.960

All right. So from this point on, my career is literature, poetry and novels and nonfiction. And I will write until I drop dead. And the worst thing is to become

01:12:01.160 - 01:12:10.480

stricken with dementia and Alzheimer's. If that happens, then it's God's will. I don't know what to do, but I hope it's not going to happen because I take care of my brain.

01:12:10.520 - 01:12:30.160

Yes, I exercise it. Oh, nice. Yeah. I hope that doesn't happen either. Yeah. Where and when do you feel most at home? With-with my. With memory of my late parents and

01:12:30.160 - 01:12:39.880

grandparents. Oh. That's sweet. Yes. Mhm. And with interacting with people like yourself [PK: Aw, I am so honored.] you know, younger

01:12:39.880 - 01:12:59.770

people whose lives seem to embrace a purpose. I really enjoy that kind of contact and I feel at home with it. If they find me then I feel at home with them. I just haven't had the time to make the effort to go out and help

01:12:59.770 - 01:13:15.170

them. Because how in the world can I do that now? I mean, I should go to meetings. I attend or attend their-their events, for example, the New Year's celebration,

01:13:15.170 - 01:13:29.570

that's one way. But in crowds like that, people don't strike up personal interaction. So I have to wait for them to fight me. As in your case. Yeah.

01:13:30.330 - 01:13:44.530

Thank you so much for giving us your time. I also want to ask you, how do you relate to French culture? How do I—

01:13:44.730 - 01:13:54.500

Relate to French culture. Or the French culture? [PK: Yes] It has been part of me too. But I didn't invest enough of my time in it.

01:13:54.500 - 01:14:09.980

Again it's just a question of priorities and and availability. But I am at home with the French culture. I've lost the language a lot. I-I can read still, but speaking, I don't think that I'm

01:14:10.300 - 01:14:25.340

like a native speaker and I—and I've stopped composing in French altogether. I mean, I'm focusing on my English now. You know, writing in English. I don't write in Vietnamese anymore.

01:14:25.980 - 01:14:36.500

I've done enough of that. Now, if I do it, it's out of necessity like for communication, but not for creative writing. Mhm.

01:14:38.020 - 01:14:56.670

Awesome. Given your immigration background and your phenomenal record of achievements as a law professor, most downloaded scholar on the Social Science Research Network, attorney, a judge, a founder of the

01:14:57.190 - 01:15:10.790

National Asian Pacific American Bar Association, and as the first Vietnamese American judge in the country. What are you most proud of? I am proud of my pro bono service.

01:15:11.590 - 01:15:26.510

And in that sense, again, I regret not responding to the individuals who have sought me out for comfort, all right. I am proud of my pro bono, although that is the least known. [PK: Yes.

01:15:26.910 - 01:15:44.390

And why?] But that's what I'm proud of. And I'm proud of my writing, although much of it has not been published. I never had a literary agent. I'm going to focus on that now with the poetry series is

01:15:44.390 - 01:16:00.840

taken care of because I have a publisher. It's a unique project in itself. All right. But after that, I'm going to go back to the norm, and that is to look for a literary agent while I continue writing

01:16:01.800 - 01:16:18.080

and to find a major mainstream publisher. And it may happen, it may not. The work is done. That's the most important thing. And we'll manage. I will manage with the marketplace as it

01:16:18.080 - 01:16:31.440

is and the rest of my time before I turn too old. So— Could you also explain— And what—and what I'm most proud of is the ability to

01:16:31.640 - 01:16:50.800

to maintain the artist in me while being a lawyer as a career and any other types of activities that have constituted a-a career in addition to just being

01:16:50.840 - 01:17:05.360

a straightforward lawyer. You know, being a judge can be a career in itself. Now that I do regret, because I closed doors that I should have pursued, like, to really

01:17:05.360 - 01:17:20.320

become a judge on the federal bench. I was inspired to do that at one time, and then decided not to do it because of the commitment to literature. Not enough time. Mhm. Mhm.

01:17:21.280 - 01:17:34.160

I see that you like pursuing literature more than law. Can I ask what's the reason behind? What is what? What is the reason behind your strong connection with literature.

01:17:34.320 - 01:17:51.530

Oh my-my parents-my parents. They are both are, or were, professors of literature. And they-they put it in me as the earliest interest in life. You know, I-I started making poems when I

01:17:51.530 - 01:18:09.010

was maybe 5 or 6. I just came up with poetry in Vietnamese, with rhymes and the exact number of words. You know, I just did it because there's a natural musicality to it that the child just picked up.

01:18:09.610 - 01:18:26.690

So-so I learned poetry, Vietnamese poetry out before I started grade school by-by listening to adults. My-my mother and my father were both literature fans.

01:18:26.770 - 01:18:41.890

I mean, it was their careers in their blood. [PK: Yeah] Yeah. And they-they wholeheartedly embraced my literature work. My-my father was the one who put the manuscript together in Vietnamese.

01:18:41.890 - 01:18:56.820

My first published book was in Vietnamese and that was the-the-the work of my father. I just wrote, you know, some in handwriting, some on manual typewriters, some on computers.

01:18:57.420 - 01:19:13.340

And I just send all of those to-to him to read, never thinking that they it would be published. And he retired. He put in the accent marks by hand. Now is all computerized, but back then it's by hand.

01:19:13.820 - 01:19:26.220

He did all of that. He found a publisher who's Vietnamese and that was my first book. And he told me when he told me, I said, oh, okay. I didn't think much of it.

01:19:26.220 - 01:19:37.100

I thought it was like his pastime.[PK: Yeah.] Like, he didn't have anything else to do. So he did this. But no, he took it so seriously and so proud of it, too.

01:19:38.020 - 01:19:57.790

I'm glad you had such amazing inspirations in your life to pursue literature. What is one life lesson you learned that you would like to share with our audience? One life lesson that I would like to share with the

01:19:57.790 - 01:20:21.070

world, right? [PK: Yes.] And it can be personal or career, right? [PK: Yes.] Okay, let me see. It would be what I would put in my memoir, my relationship with my parents and my grandparents.

01:20:21.310 - 01:20:36.870

That's what I would want to share with the world, because it's unique and I think it's of help to immigrants. Wherever you're from, you know. The person would also have the feeling of standing

01:20:36.870 - 01:20:55.520

in that space between two worlds and the old worlds mean your grandparents and your parents, whether they are in America or they stuck in another continent, they-they still part of you, if you're in that space

01:20:55.840 - 01:21:13.440

between two worlds. Now, if you're born in America and you've never known anything about your grandparents, and you have to go back to, like, China or Korea or Africa or somewhere to try to find out a little bit about your

01:21:13.440 - 01:21:31.000

grandparents, then that might be different. But for me, I know both worlds, and that's what I would like to share with the world, because it's the lesson, the experience of humanity and-and you-and you should share

01:21:31.880 - 01:21:49.650

something that has meaning to humanity as a whole. So you certainly don't want to share, you know, things that are too personal, like, how you lost your shoes or how or how you eat your first

01:21:50.450 - 01:22:07.090

jelly, you know, whatever. Those might have meanings, but unless they add something to humanity, they remain in your drawer, like, your own—your own experience that you don't

01:22:07.090 - 01:22:22.610

want to share. Sometimes you simply don't want to share. Yeah. Mhm. Good one. What are some differences you see in the younger generation of Asian Americans since you have been in the U.S.?

01:22:24.370 - 01:22:42.660

My experience as an Asian American in the U.S.? Yes. What-comparing yourself to other Asian Americans who were in the US. Race and gender relations, race and gender relations. I've experienced discrimination, but I

01:22:42.900 - 01:22:58.380

never-but I didn't-but I didn't realize it at the time because I didn't have anything to compare to, all right. But that's why I would like to share with Asian Americans to prepare them.

01:22:58.740 - 01:23:15.620

Things might have changed, but it may happen again to another human being. To give you an example, I got hired by a firm, and I'm not going to mention names here. I got hired by the firm and they treated me well and they worked me a lot.

01:23:15.660 - 01:23:33.500

Of course, you know, and I never knew that the person who reported to me got paid twice my salary. I got a salary and it was a good salary, so I was contented. Again, I was taught not to be more mercenary.

01:23:35.030 - 01:23:53.350

It is a cultural thing, and I think that needs to be changed because as a-as an American, you have to think of financial impact. Okay. There is something called the Equal Pays Act on the book, and it's been on the book for a long time.

01:23:54.590 - 01:24:11.910

So I wanna tell Asian Americans that if you, like, put your effort into finding out whether you are discriminated against and if you have the concrete proof, then take some actions.

01:24:11.910 - 01:24:23.030

Don't do what I did. I was an idealist. I didn't think about money. They offered me a salary. That's good enough. I found out from the person who

01:24:23.070 - 01:24:38.560

reported to me on the project that they actually paid him twice my salary. The difference is that much. [PK: Wow.] But because of the work, he had to report to me because of the work.

01:24:38.760 - 01:24:55.280

So he reported to me, and then he-he took me aside and he said, by the way, I just happened to know this, and I wanted you to know that I actually make-make this much money. And I heard the figure and I said, oh, my God,

01:24:55.320 - 01:25:07.640

that's twice my salary. [PK: Wow.] It's an outright violation of the Equal Pays Act. How did that happen? Because they could get away with it. The administration could get away with it.

01:25:07.680 - 01:25:25.800

When they hired to me, they looked at my salary record and they made an offer by a number thinking if I accept it, then that's it. And when they hired him, they-they looked at his salary record or what he demanded.

01:25:25.800 - 01:25:40.410

And if they wanted him, they had to meet his price. Now, he reported to me. That didn't make him-that didn't make them realize that they violated the law. Or maybe they did know that they violated the law,

01:25:40.410 - 01:25:54.530

yeah. Those experiences of—are a little saddening to hear. I want to ask one more question about your—about the current legal system, especially the ones that are--

01:25:55.050 - 01:26:10.400

especially in regarding to immigration law. Since America is being very strict on immigration.[WD: Yes.] How do you think the U.S. Will attract talented people like yours in the future?

01:26:10.400 - 01:26:27.850

And how will that impact their contributions to the United States? Well, the views expressed by restricting immigration is that in the present situation, the US is not getting the talents.

01:26:27.850 - 01:26:45.940

They're getting the criminals, the-the bad segments of society. That is the justification or the impetus toward restricting the borders right now. So, most people in that camp of the

01:26:45.940 - 01:27:04.220

view will take issue with your statement that you--that America will lose the talent by restricting this categorized segment of the world's society, that America is opening its borders for

01:27:04.220 - 01:27:21.660

criminals and the bad segments that you don't want in America. They have to prove that, and they are going to have to lean on that kind of argument in order to meet your argument that, look, if you close the border, that way you're losing

01:27:22.340 - 01:27:40.710

talents, the attraction of talents, which has been the meaning of the Statue of Liberty and America standing for the development of talents. You know, freedom would nurture talents and creativity.

01:27:40.710 - 01:27:57.270

And we're getting the best of the world under our belts. So, those are two contradicting views of this describing of reality. And so-and then there's a question of proving the reality that you're

01:27:57.270 - 01:28:16.990

proposing by numbers. And I-I am proud of the fact that I stand for the proposition that talents are coming in. But from that camp, they-they're going to say, but that's not the reality anymore, you know.

01:28:17.030 - 01:28:34.790

So it's-it's a give and take and it's a question of generalizing what you're facing. You know, you have to generalize that this group consists of criminals, and this group consists of talents, you see.

01:28:35.470 - 01:28:53.590

But the question of talents is-is provable, you know, are you going to close the border to, like, a no-Nobel Prize in science? On purpose? Of course not.

01:28:53.590 - 01:29:13.190

But if-if there is and some people find out that's going to make headlines, you know, for changing the policy of America, you see. But we don't know whether we're going to face with those cases or not. So we're dealing with generalization to advance a

01:29:13.190 - 01:29:25.400

policy based on politics. How do you think that will impact the immigrants contribution to the community? How have I impacted or?

01:29:25.560 - 01:29:43.240

How these policies will impact the future immigrants' contribution to the United States or the current immigrants? They will deter people from trying to enter America illegally if they know that once they get in,

01:29:43.280 - 01:29:59.080

they are going to be deported and turned back. I myself, in my career, had defended aliens in deportation proceedings based on grounds that have nothing to do with the issue of the borders.

01:29:59.080 - 01:30:16.600

These are people who are in America and they are deported. They-they are in America legally, and they are deported because they did something bad in America. And I defended them on-on clemency grounds,

01:30:16.600 - 01:30:32.650

which is spelled out in the Immigration Act. There-there were- there was language of the law to make an exception to deportation based on clemency or the impact on the family, okay.

01:30:32.690 - 01:30:49.290

There was a bad element, but it's causing hardship to the family to take this man away from his family and deport him. So, those are the cases that I've done, free of charge as part of my

01:30:49.890 - 01:31:06.650

pro bono work. Okay. So, to answer your question, of course, if we're closing the border, we are going to impact those who-who want to be in America and make the efforts to make it happen, you see.

01:31:06.730 - 01:31:25.460

And among those that may be some huge talents that-that potentially could be of so much help to America. Of course there is going to be that-that negative impact. But as it turns on how you generalize the people

01:31:25.460 - 01:31:44.660

who are standing outside the border wanting to be here. And of course, it's going to deter people from trying to cross the border illegally. You know, and I think this administration is trying to say that we're not dealing with people who are legally

01:31:44.660 - 01:31:58.340

admitted to America like a a Nobel potential applying to be in America. We're only dealing with unknown people who are crossing the border illegally. That's the argument right now.

01:31:58.540 - 01:32:08.700

Mhm. Yeah. You have had experience with the law. If there was something, something you would change about the U.S. Legal system, what would it be?

01:32:09.860 - 01:32:27.950

U.S. Laws in general? [PK: Yes.] Oh my god that's very huge. I would change a lot of things because many things are not working the way they should. So, I would change many things, but I have to think about this as to what would be on my

01:32:28.710 - 01:32:46.350

agenda as a critical question or matter. I would do something to change the crowdedness of our court's dockets, because that's doable.

01:32:46.350 - 01:33:05.230

[PK: Yes.] You know, that's doable. I think the system of appointing judges that can be improved. I think judges should kept—should be kept away from

01:33:05.230 - 01:33:22.800

politics. That there should be appointments that are not dependent on what's going on with elections, or who's the person to make the appointments. There should be an ongoing method of appointing judges based

01:33:22.800 - 01:33:36.960

on talents, but not on politics. And I would do away with the system that judges have to run for office and pay for campaigns. That is what I'm going to change, that all judges should be

01:33:36.960 - 01:33:53.600

appointed, and no judge will have to run for office. Because when you run for office, sometimes it's a question of who runs the better election campaign with the most money, and judges have to go around collecting contributions.

01:33:54.240 - 01:34:09.480

I don't think judges should do that, you know. So, that's why I've never run for judgeship, and I never will. You know, if I have money, I will give it to the poor. I'm not going to spend it on an effort to elect

01:34:10.720 - 01:34:25.210

myself, you know. I don't want to be-I don't want to be a judge based on money. No, I would turn it down. So, that's the number one. I mean, in-in America, there are judges who do not

01:34:26.610 - 01:34:41.690

select their judges based on election. I think Colorado is one of those. Based on my memory, didn't what the status of the law is now, I don't know. But that's one thing that I would like to change if I have the

01:34:41.690 - 01:34:53.090

power. I mean, really take care of our judicial system. That's a really good point. And I do agree with that. I want to go back to your first point about becoming a lawyer.

01:34:53.090 - 01:35:09.730

You mentioned that law was one of the fields that were that lacked representation of Asian Americans. You recently had audition for the debut of-for the musical Miss Saigon in New York City in Los Angeles.

01:35:10.170 - 01:35:22.500

That was a long time ago. That was in the night-the-the 1990s and and late 1980s. Oh, wow. Nice. And you successfully organized a diversity concert,

01:35:22.540 - 01:35:40.500

[WD: Yes.] featuring classical, Broadway and Vietnamese music [WD: Yes.] in Denver. How do you think we can motivate younger generation of Asian Americans to pursue a career in other industries, like entertainment that lacks the representation of Asian Americans?

01:35:40.700 - 01:35:56.580

That has happened much more than my time. It has happened a lot. So you-so for anyone who wants a career in Hollywood or Broadway or the performing arts, there are more opportunities

01:35:56.660 - 01:36:16.910

now. But there might be just the adverse reaction. And that is we have enough of them now, so we're not going to need any more, you know. So-so, I think what should happen is that we should take care of ourselves. We do our own films, we write our own novels.

01:36:16.910 - 01:36:35.750

We--and the way to do that is to become a director and a producer. Our communities are rich enough now because of the years we spent in America. So we've got our own money, do our own shows. Then we can have actors

01:36:35.790 - 01:36:51.630

and singers and writers in all kinds of of contribution on my own, on our own. [PK: Yeah.] So we--so in a way, we audition for ourselves. And that is happening with my series.

01:36:52.350 - 01:37:06.110

I kind of went out for bid and I said, I have this work and I want a publisher who's Vietnamese owned. I haven't tried Asian Americans yet because that's bigger. It requires more work on myself.

01:37:06.150 - 01:37:18.600

And-and I may have to do that. So I did the Vietnamese first. I went out for bid and I said, we need a publisher to publish books like my and others.

01:37:19.320 - 01:37:35.400

Who wants to do it? Please contact me. And I got responses, but there were problems there too. And it has to do with personalities and just the sense of unity. If it's done for the right person, it will be

01:37:35.400 - 01:37:55.960

successful regardless, and I hope that my series of publications will prove that we could do it because individuals and nonprofits and talent get together and said, if that's what we need and-and if that's what your need,

01:37:56.000 - 01:38:10.570

we'll do it. And the money is coming in as donations, just a little, tiny bit at a time. And I don't even have to go around doing the fundraising myself. You know, I just need to go out for bid.

01:38:10.570 - 01:38:23.090

And I did, but there wasn't an official bid. It's just like words of mouth. And now I have the publisher to bring at least one book out, but there are four more, so we'll see.

01:38:23.130 - 01:38:42.650

So to answer your question, we--it's time that we create our own opportunity. What about the Vietnamese get the permission from Les Miz or Miss Saigon and say it's going to be an all Asian cast now?

01:38:44.050 - 01:38:57.610

Everybody. And when the character is non-Asian, we'll audition and fill in the blank. You see, I think now is the time. So that would be what I propose to community groups.

01:38:57.610 - 01:39:18.140

And then but-but some of that is happening already at the Asian society. They have exhibitions of artists, film makers. So, some of that is already happening but what we don't want is that the Asia society will focus on

01:39:18.140 - 01:39:34.900

only one group, and not the whole landscape of Asian Americans, you know. But we just do it with one group, like the Korean dance troupes or the Chinese American filmmakers.

01:39:34.940 - 01:39:52.100

You know, we have to kind of really make it Pan Asia. And then I don't want to see the Asia society to become an elitist group, you know. Like, it's just as difficult as trying to do it in the mainstream, then most young people will not do it.

01:39:52.660 - 01:40:13.420

So, to the extent that I have time, and if my publication and writing career is relatively successful, then I will use that platform to help make the opportunities available for us to really

01:40:14.060 - 01:40:28.900

start our own show. You see? So there's no more audition because we audition for ourselves. We just get together and do it, you know? I agree, I also want to ask, going

01:40:28.900 - 01:40:44.340

back to your life experiences, the Fall of Saigon is getting close. It's on April 30th, the anniversary. And reflecting on your life experience witnessing the Fall of Saigon. What are your hopes for the future of Vietnam?

01:40:45.620 - 01:40:59.420

The hope for Vietnam now? Yes. The common hope which most of us don't want to say because it gets us to cross the line of politics and we become

01:41:00.820 - 01:41:13.390

political crusaders, you know. But the situation has not been changed with China, except that you have China and Taiwan. So they meet--the needs are met.

01:41:14.150 - 01:41:25.110

And with Korea you have South Korea and North Korea, so the needs are met, okay. If people don't want to do work in North Korea, they go to South Korea.

01:41:25.110 - 01:41:41.110

Who wants to do business with North Korea I don't know. You know, I mean, you go there to get into trouble, you know. So the problem with Vietnam now is that it's a single party country. So there's only one ruler and that's

01:41:41.310 - 01:41:58.110

the Communist Party. So if you do something that's not in line with the Communist Party, they're not going to let you do it. However, the country is open enough diplomatically and otherwise, and they like Vietnamese Americans to go back.

01:41:59.270 - 01:42:18.400

So there are opportunities there and this is addressed in my poetry series to paint the reality. The reality is that there are some who will go back to Vietnam for health, for retirement, for emotional,

01:42:18.400 - 01:42:31.720

for recreation, whatever. There are some who will go back and there are others who say, no, the line is drawn. We don't want to have anything to do with a country that

01:42:31.720 - 01:42:47.880

is a single party state controlled by the government. No matter how relaxed they're going to make, it is still one boss. And we're like a country that have a supply of at least two parties like America.

01:42:47.920 - 01:43:04.450

You know, there are some who will draw that line of identity. And all of this is presented in my policy--in my poetry. If not in the poetry itself, it will be in footnotes and notes and annotations to the poetry.

01:43:05.130 - 01:43:17.970

Yes. Thank you for giving us the honor to hear your story and your life experience. I want to close on one question. Are there any other things you would like to add that we have not covered yet?

01:43:18.450 - 01:43:34.450

Yes. Now I want to say a little bit more about the poetry series. It might take me two years to get all five books out. It might take me five years.

01:43:34.450 - 01:43:48.130

But it all relates to back to the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War is not a Vietnamese issue. It is part of U.S. History.

01:43:48.450 - 01:44:02.320

And today I checked AI, now this is the new thing, all right. Not new anymore, it's been all over. But now is officially because when you do your Google search, it's going to show up AI.

01:44:02.320 - 01:44:21.060

So AI says that the Vietnam War is very important to America, that it should be revisited and reviewed because our world continues to be a world at the risk of war. So Vietnam War is like up there as the priority in terms

01:44:21.060 - 01:44:37.980

of historical review, all right. So, my book will serve that purpose as outlined by AI. It just fits so thanks AI. Remember AI is created by people.

01:44:38.220 - 01:44:57.190

So when we say AI actually it's people manipulating a software or a computer. Anyway, so it might take me two years to five years to get all five books of poetry out and this is

01:44:58.270 - 01:45:14.230

partly my memoir and poetry. But there are discussions of topics that will be of interest to people who are not Vietnamese or people from other ethnic communities.

01:45:14.230 - 01:45:31.070

It's not all about the Vietnam War, like the one huge book is-is going to be about the culture gap. So that's for all types of immigrants. Another book is about love, and people are interested in love,

01:45:31.230 - 01:45:48.110

you know. So, I hope that the series will have universal appeal, even though it's in the context of the voice of a Vietnamese woman writing her memoir. I hope that this series will transcend

01:45:48.630 - 01:45:55.390

the focus on me and my Vietnamese background. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.