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Hello. Today is Monday, September 16th, 2024. My name is Hannah Son and I'm here today with Weijia Pan on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. To start, could you please state your full name and where and when you were

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born? So, my name is Weijia Pan, and I was born in Nanjing, China in 1996. Great, thank you. And how would you describe the household you grew up

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in? The house I grew up in? Yeah. And also household, in terms of if you had any siblings, kind of, who you were living with.

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Oh, yeah. So I–I think I moved a lot when I was little and was an infant. So, I grew up in a house—I think for the first three years, I grew up in my grandparents' house, my maternal grandparents' house.

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And my dad at the time, he was working for a bunch of Western companies, like American, European companies. So, he was away for work when I was little. So, I was mostly living with my mom and my grandparents in

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Nanjing. And then from three to seven-ish, I'm still in Nanjing, but I went to kindergarten, so that was my experience with Nanjing. So, like at the tiny apartment that was built for—m-my

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grandparents were—they worked for a state-owned factory and, like, their neighborhood were populated by people who work at the same factory. So, it was, like, a factory-built apartment there. So, like, all their neighbors were, like, colleagues for a long time.

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So, that was the environment that I grew up in. And then at age of seven, my dad found a job. When I was seven, my dad found a job in Shanghai, so he moved the whole family to Shanghai.

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So I started primary school in Shanghai, and it was a totally different experience. Like Shanghai and Nanjing have two dialects, mutually unintelligible. So, like, for the first three months in Shanghai,

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I couldn't understand what teacher was saying. I mean, like for the–for the formal instruction, the teacher was required to speak Mandarin, but like after instruction is over, when they're, like, gossiping with each other, when teachers are talking to students,

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when students talk to ea-each other, they're using Shanghainese, and I couldn't understand for three months. So, that was my initial culture-cultural shock when I moved. Yeah, I guess that's my, like, my first experiences with this world.

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That's really great. Thank you for sharing. I'm curious, did you, like, have to pick up Shanghainese entirely when you moved there? I didn't pick up Shanghainese, but I learned how to understand it. I see, I see. What were some of the values that you would

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say your parents and maybe your grandparents emphasized while you were growing up? Hmm. I think my parents were trying to help me fit in my community, whether it's school,

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whether it's a different cultural environment in Shanghai. Because I was a very introverted kid, I'm still pretty introverted, but moving to a new environment, right, when you were little is—can be a very defining experience for you.

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And initially, that wasn't that difficult—that wasn't that simple. And language barrier's one thing. And then the other thing is, like,

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how to navigate primary school and excelling in class. I think these were like main emphasis of my parents, like trying to fit in and study hard, work hard.

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Yeah. Yeah, it's really nice to hear about, like, how those social experiences were kind of emphasized [WP: Mm hmm.] in your life as well. Do you have any favorite childhood memories kind of around that,

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like whether neighborhood or school friends? Mm...yeah. So, I made some friends in primary school, and I really enjoyed my friendship with them. But these were, like, students from, like, local

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Shanghainese families. So, they speak a different dialect, but we all spoke Mandarin, and sometimes Shanghainese, after class. And so, it was a great experience hanging out with them because otherwise,

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we wouldn't have any connections with the city and [unintelligible] dad's always [unintelligible] for work. And my mom was a photographer for a while and worked with my uncle, but then they stopped doing that.

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So, yeah, just having friends in the same neighborhood who went to the same school was helpful for me to get used to the city. Apart from that, I think a lot of kids were playing like video games,

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and my parents, like, didn't want me to play too much video games, so they didn't buy me, like a PlayStation [laughs]. And that was kind of sad for me at the time. I feel like that's very, very relatable.

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That hits home [laughs] for sure. Yeah, I think while we're still kind of talking about your early life, I'd be curious to hear more about your early educational experiences. So, if you'd like to share, like, what schools you attended.

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And then also if there were any particular teachers or, like, academic experiences during that time that impacted you. So, I went to primary school and middle school in Shanghai. So, these were schools in the domestic education system.

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And then for high school, I went to an international high school and—which was kind of like an offshore Canadian campus that was run by Canadian teachers, but it's an international school in Shanghai. So, these were completely different experiences.

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And for the domestic schools, you know, it's a very test-based, exam-based education system. So, everyone was studying for exams. And being someone not from Shanghai that didn't have Shanghainese hukou,

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like the household registration, which is required for you to take that exam—to take high school entrance exam and college entrance exam in Shanghai. So–so hukou is basically like internal green card, and if you don't have that green card,

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you can't really access educational resources in the city. So for me, if I didn't—if I chose to stay in Shanghai, we would have to—it would be possible—it would be impossible for me to–to get into a high school through that exam.

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So an alternative for me, it was to go back to Nanjing, where I was from, and to take exam there, which was impossible because Shanghai and Nanjing also had different education systems, so the curriculum was different.

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So, my parents decided to send me to international school and potentially go abroad so I don't have to go through all of this. Um, teachers, I think–even in,

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like, primary school and middle school, there were occasionally interesting teachers. I was very good student in primary school, less so in middle school. But there were teachers who understood–understood me,

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who were willing to, like, accommodate me because I was a good student. But also I like to fight with others. Like, sometimes I was a bully, I think [laughs]. Um,

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so I was fighting others. Not–not a good thing for them, but weirdly (?) speaking, like, teachers would just let it go because you're a good student, so [laughs]... And then.

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In high school, it was a totally different experience because, like, most of my teachers were Canadian teachers sent from Canada. So, it was a different educational system. And then—but most of the students were Chinese.

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So, everyone was trying to get used to this new system. And, you know, there was a lot more freedom outside of class, and we don't have heavy workload as we did in the domestic training system.

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So yeah, there was—for me, it was a much better experience because if you went through, like, domestic high school in China, it would be, generally speaking, a nightmare for students because you have to study for like 12 hours a day.

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And I was kind of glad that I didn't have to go through that. Right, right. Do you think seeing how different those school systems were for you at all influenced, like, your own decisions to go into academia and also teach?

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I think for me, like, the advantage of going to an international high school is that I—'cause I really suck at STEM subjects and for domestic curriculum, STEMs were increasing—were extremely difficult. And if I had stayed in Shang-in Shanghai,

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I wouldn't be able to get a good score, which would mean—which wouldn't have–which wouldn't have gotten me into university. But going to this Canadian high school, like, the STEM subjects were much easier than I expected,

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so and also, like, being a humanities students don't have to take as many STEM courses as—which is different in the domestic case because everyone is basically taking the same courses. So, you have to be good at every course to be able to get a good overall score.

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But I don't think it really affected my interest in–in the academia. And—but I was interested in literature when I—in writing literature when I was in high school, so mostly writing Chinese short stories and poetry.

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But I didn't really know that academia could be an option, because while China has some creative writing programs, there weren't a lot of openings for creative writings to go into academia. Unless you're, like, super famous and they will just hire you as a full professor.

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But there wasn't like a tenure track system in China that supports junior creative writers there. Would you say that, like, it was during high school that you first, like, became interested in writing or writing became a part of your life,

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or had it started earlier? Yeah, I was in high school and I was—I mean, because there wasn't much to do, like, and I was still a fairly good student. So I was–I was reading, like, the French

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authors. Albert Camus and—the French—I was watching French New Wave cinema, and that somehow got me interested in reflecting on my own experiences, even like childhood experiences,

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and to turn those into recollections, sometimes, like, short paragraphs, that I could expand into stories. So, I had some, like, publications in, like, online journals, and I was really proud of that.

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And also during the time there were also internet, like, literature, literary forums, like bulletin boards where people would just post new poems and—in search of feedback. And there were a lot of valuable feedback online.

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And I would just post a new poem in between my classes and check responses after the class is over. And just like talking to people who you know you're not going to met, but read your–read a lot of your work and or very interested in offering feedback, expecting you,

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of course, to give them similar amounts of feedback. Yeah, it's really good to like—to hear about those online forums as like a starting point in that, I'm also curious whether, like, your creative writing pursuits at that time

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were met with encouragement from your parents or, like, other people in your life. My current—my parents, they didn't discourage me, but they didn't encourage me, like, either.

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It's–it's–it's more–it's more–more or less, like, as long as your–your hobbies didn't interfere with your studies, like, it was okay. But there was creative writing in the family. My grandpa–my paternal grandpa was a poet

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for a while during the '60s, '70s and—late '70s and early '80s. And he published a few poems in newspapers, and that's–that was basically it. But–but there was, like, once a poet in the family.

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So, I guess that's why the family was more accommodating of, like, creative writing pursuits. And then I would also...just ask, kind of

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transitioning between early life and then, like, framing around the experience of immigration, like, how did you start thinking about your future and your adult life and what you wanted to do?

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Mm hmm. So, my parents actually consider immigration when I was in primary school, and they were initially thinking about going to Australia, and—which didn't work out because I think the immigration agency was, like, broke or something [laughs].

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So, I think we didn't get our application feedback, which is kind of funny because like, we waited for a few years and then the agency just shut down [laughs]. Yeah. So–so then they decided to send me to international school.

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So, I went through the international school system and then applied for American universities. And so I studied BA—I got a BA in comparative literature at UCLA, and I didn't really think much about this major,

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'cause I went through, like, the list of majors, and I didn't really like a lot of them. And I wasn't really sure about studying something for a better career. So, that ruled out business and STEM [laughs].

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So, yeah, I was thinking about continuing my interest at UCLA by studying comparative literature, but researching literature and writing literature are completely different things.

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So, I didn't know about that until I got into the program. So, yeah. And I wasn't really sure about, like, what I should do during—after high school—after—sorry, after university. So, I wasn't sure about going into the

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academia when I graduated. So, I went back to Shanghai for three years to work, and I worked as a college application consultant, much like the consultant my family used to hire when I was in high school,

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just to, like, offer guidance and career guidance, but also essay coaching and occasionally ghostwriting for students to go into better universities. I worked in that position for three years, and it was kind of

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disappointing for me, because there's, like, no sense of ownership of your own work. Like, you write, you craft, an impeccable essay for a student, and then a student gets to sign that name on it,

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and it's not even their work. So, after that, I decided to–to pick up my interest in writing. I kind of stopped writing in college.

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And I decided to apply for creative writing programs in the US again—to go back to the US again for studies. And yeah, that's why I went back. I think that's such an interesting trajectory,

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especially hearing you wanted to take back ownership of your writing after working, like, in the college consultant space. Yeah, I think I'd want to circle back just a little bit to hear a bit more [WP: Yeah.] about what your undergrad experience was like at UCLA,

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in terms of, like, campus culture or any culture shock that you may have had? Yeah. UCLA is a very diverse campus, but it's–but it's also kind of disorienting, especially for international students who just got there, and then they don't know what to do next.

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And I think especially for me, or for other students in like—where there aren't many major students there. For example, I was a Comp Lit major, and I think we only have like—we only had like 15 Comp Lit majors a year,

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and the department wasn't interested in, like, setting us up with each other, having us meet each other, or–or having parties where we can meet, or anything like that. So, I didn't really know students of my major and had to

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reach out to students myself, which I didn't really know what to do, so it was hard to make friends at first. Eventually, I was able to make friends with some Chinese students who were not humanities majors. But

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they kind of shared the same interest in writing and in, like, music or in the arts, so—and we also became roommates, which is another way of, like, helping each other out when things are not going well.

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And then I think you touched on this, but how was the actual Comparative Literature program for you? [WP: Mm hmm] And also like, was it—did you make that decision so that you could still study, like, Chinese literature that you had read

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and enjoyed reading, like, back home? Yeah, what was kind of the rationale behind that? So, the Comp Lit department at UCLA is a fairly small department, but I guess, like, it's the same in other universities as

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well. So, I took a lot of courses in English, which is a much larger department, and in Chinese. My second major is actually in Chinese. So,

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yeah, just taking a lot of courses that expanded my literary scope, which I think is important for my later writing, but I didn't see it back then. But to be honest, like, the most

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interesting course I took, it was actually a history course, and the professor was someone—I think he was a Cuban refugee who actually swam to America. And then he worked first as a taxi driver and eventually got his PhD in

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history and became this amazing professor at UCLA. And I was really inspired by his personality and by his interests. It was a general education course, but I was really inspired by this professor as a person. I think

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my–I think the Lit courses, the Comp Lit courses and English courses at UCLA were less interesting to me in that respect, but I didn't really know if I should change to History or some other majors, just–I just decided to stick with Comp Lit.

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That makes sense. Do you happen to remember the name of that history professor? Okay, let me find it... His name is Teofilo Ruiz. T-E-O-F-I-L-O. And R-U-I-Z.

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Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and he's in the Spanish and Portuguese department. Yeah. That's, like, such an amazing story. Yeah, and then I think in terms of you deciding

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to go pursue an MFA, did you know that you wanted to write poetry, especially, like, at that point? Okay. So the funny fact about my MFA application was that I didn't know which genre I should pick, 'cause I was writing Chinese fiction

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and poetry at the same time. So, I decided to to be strategic about it. Like, I know, like fiction, you need a manuscript of like—you need a portfolio of, like, 6000 to 8000 words, and for poetry,

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you need 10 to 15 pages. So, in terms of this–in terms of, like, how much time I could spend at the moment, I felt like poetry was much easier to do, if I could just translate my Chinese poems into English,

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and I could add to that by writing some original English poems. But to translate my fiction into a whole fiction manuscript would take too much time for me to do. So, I decided to go for poetry because it's easier to translate.

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So, that's how I got into poetry [laughs]. Wow. And at the time that you were applying to the MFA programs, did you have any sort of mentorship, or even informal things like the forums you used to run through, like, informing your application process?

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Oh, yeah. There was a student-run website called MFA App at WashU, Washington University, St. Louis. That was helpful. I sent in my manuscript, and, they paired me up with a mentor

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there. I think she was an MFA student there, and she offered me some advice on–on titling my poems and on, like, editing, like, minor issues in my poems, which I found to be helpful. But other than that, I didn't really have guidance.

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It was difficult to seek guidance. I don't–I didn't really know where I can find guidance. And mostly because, like, I didn't take creative writing courses at UCLA. There was only, like, one or two openings.

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So, I wasn't really in touch with old professors who offered me guidance after graduation. Wow, that's very impressive. And then you ended up at the University of Houston, is that correct? [WP: Yeah.] Yeah, which is—that's–that's so

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impressive [laughs]. And so I want to ask more about that program and how you felt that it helped to refine your craft and if your work evolved at all during that time? Yeah. So UH is kind of a mid-sized creative writing program,

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so it's not too small. Like, I don't know, Emory or, like, the University of Virginia. So, there are, like, programs for very small with like,

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only two or three or four students a year. And then there are, on the big side, there's programs like Iowa where there are, like, 40 students a year. And I think because UH is, like, a mid-sized program,

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it was—able for me to connect with other students and to have, like, a robust faculty who are actually able to help us. Because in a small program, like, if you don't get on well with the

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faculty members, like, there's no way for you to seek help. Like, there's nobody out there to help. But then at UH there are like, I think there are five or six professors. There's–there's a lot of opportunities to get help from different poets And to hear their

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perspectives. And–and I'm very grateful to professors such as Kevin Prufer and Erin Belieu and francine harris, who were able to share your valuable time with me editing my poems, especially Kevin Prufer.

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Like, I would send him a packet of poems every two or three weeks, and he would read them beforehand and talk to me for an hour and offer, like, very detailed editorial advice on those poems. And it was with his help that I was able to craft out a manuscript in

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two years and send it out for book contests. That's really amazing. Can you describe what your dissertation project was like, where the idea kind of originated?

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Like, if there was a theme that was emerging in all of your work. Yeah. Yeah, so...the dissertation I–that I eventually turned into a book started off as

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poems that I–that began with, like, personal speakers were close to me and someone who lives in both China and the United States, who sees issues in both societies and who has a struggle in China. But then—who is interested in poetry

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and how—interested in history and how history defines his childhood and then his family experiences. So, I began with poems that reflect on my–my experiences and my family's experiences. But also go back to historical events in the 20th

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century. And my grandparents and parents went through the political turmoil in the 20th century. And sometimes, like, there were anecdotes I've heard from them that could testify to what happened.

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But at other times I had to Google it to do my own research, to–to fill out the story, to have a more concrete image of what the story actually was for other people in China. So, I started with poems with personal speakers like those.

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Eventually I expanded to include other speakers to discuss issues such as isolation and displacement and racism on a more global level. And sometimes the poems are set in Houston, sometimes they are—they look at an unspecified country where there

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are no obvious cultural markers. And I really wanted to my readers to feel like–like these are stories that could have happened anywhere. And I wanted them to have, like, a kind of historical and global

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cultural awareness in ways that I think is not very commonly expressed in American poetry today. And when you specify that it's not that common in American poetry, do you think that tradition

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exists, like, in Chinese poetry or elsewhere? I think Chinese poetry tend to be more historical, like, there's more historical awareness in terms of, like, how the speaker, the personal speaker,

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the I, connects with the past. Like, there's always historical references that can be used to–to allude to contemporary events or their historical references that could be brought

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in to make a poem more complex. I think American poetry is, by comparison, more interested in formal innovation and in discussing the complexities of a poet's identity. Whereas Chinese poetry is more interested in historical

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excavations and bringing in—establishing this conversation between the historical and the personal. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's such a powerful approach to hear about and I think, like, in reading about the collection,

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Motherlands, that's come out of it, the kind of concept of a poet's duty is so interesting and so moving. Do you think that's—I just want to ask, like, how was the process of adapting that dissertation into the collection that

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it is now? Like, has it changed very much, yeah. Yeah. So, I didn't really have a sense of what the collection is going to be when I wrote the poems. So, I wrote about, like, thirty-ish poems.

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And then by the end of my second year and the start of my third year, and—actually it was before that. Like halfway through my second year, I realized that I had forty-ish pages that I could turn into a collection.

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But then, like, the–the thing is, to find a title for the collection and then to figure out the right way of ordering the poems so that the speaker—so that the reader can feel and read the poem as if they're going through a journey. And I wasn't really sure if, like,

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it was a natural—if a natural journey can be imagined reading a poem. So, I had to, like, move around the poems a few times to see if they—if a certain pattern emerges. And also picking the title was difficult,

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because initially, the title of the book was Peppered Path, so it was brought—it was borrowed from the titles of–from the title of one of the poems, "Peppered Path," which refers to the practice of sprinkling pepper on a newly paved road for safe travels

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in third-century China, and was directly borrowed from a prose poem from the third century. And...I think–I think it is still–I still think it is a strong image, but then it's–it has a cultural reference

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that can be easily lost, even for a lot of Chinese speakers. Because, like, that prose poem, like, is not even that famous back home. So, i feel like maybe it's better to have a title that's more readily available, that's easier to understand for readers. So "Motherlands" Was

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also taken from the poems. It's called "Third Class' Motherland," so I decided to make it plural to symbolize some different—the complex identities of the speaker, situated in historical and political and cultural events.

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It's a really, really wonderful title [WP: Thank you.]. Yeah, I think it's so cool to hear, like, a bit about your process and also craft, which I will ask a lot more about later. I think I also kind of just want to touch on what your first impressions of

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Houston as a city [WP: Yeah.] was like in—with the MFA program. I still don't really like Houston, to be honest. It's–it's too hot. It's too humid. Whereas, I mean, Shanghai is hot and humid as well,

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but then you have a much better public transportation system, and you can always, like, go down your–you can always like–like, go down your building and find a convenience store that's like 24/7. Whereas in Houston, or anywhere in the US, really,

00:32:17.180 - 00:32:30.260

like, it's hard to have that. It's difficult to have that kind of thing [laughs]. So, transitioning, like, from China to the US was still difficult for me. I still find it much easier to live in China because of those

00:32:30.260 - 00:32:44.180

convenient–convenience. But...so, I like the people I've met in Houston more than the city, to be honest [laughs]

00:32:46.010 - 00:33:03.720

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It isn't an uncommon [laughs] take on the city. I'm also curious whether you felt like you've gravitated towards or been able to engage with, like, the Chinese and Asian communities in Houston,

00:33:03.720 - 00:33:21.230

because it is such a diverse city and especially has, like, very strong presence with those communities specifically? Mhm. I feel like because of my–because of my program, I have been in touch with–with more

00:33:21.230 - 00:33:36.590

South Asian students and Arab students than East Asian students, because we don't really have an East Asian MFA here. And like in my second year, we had—so, there was like an East

00:33:36.590 - 00:33:52.520

Asian PhD, but she's in Lit, so our discussions tend to be about different issues. But within the program–within the creative writing program, it's mostly Americans, white Americans. And then international students

00:33:52.520 - 00:34:10.100

from–from South Asia in our cohort, or the Arab world. So, I was—some of my poems were about—I think there was one poem that discusses and imagines the life of an Arab family, but the father still has a son back home,

00:34:10.100 - 00:34:22.980

and then he immigrated to the United States. And then he starts a new family. And then at the end of this poem, like, everything is imagined, like, the speaker tells the reader.

00:34:22.980 - 00:34:43.290

So, also have—I also have ghazals and Arabic forms. And in general, just feel like I've found this amazing connection between my tradition and South Asian traditions and Arab traditions that I didn't—I wasn't really exposed

00:34:43.290 - 00:34:57.030

to when I was in China or as an undergrad at UCLA. Right. I feel like being able to channel that, like, cultural intersection that you're experiencing into your art and your craft is very rare.

00:34:57.990 - 00:35:14.620

Yeah. And it's funny because like—so, like, whenever I talk to, like, my Arab friends or South Asian friends about politics, I feel like—about each other, really—I feel like our understanding of each other is always filtered through Western media,

00:35:14.620 - 00:35:31.930

which is kind of ironic, because there's like no direct connection between these–these civilizations always through like a centralized, Western-dominated system. So, like, in terms of poetry, for example, like there's no,

00:35:32.260 - 00:35:43.540

there's I couldn't find a Chinese ghazal. Like, ghazal is not introduced to China yet. So, I was joking with my friends that maybe I could be the first person to write a Chinese ghazal [laughs].

00:35:46.840 - 00:35:58.330

And then have you found, like, an extensive literary or poetry-specific community rooted in Houston? I know you're involved with the Inprint series as well, but yeah.

00:35:59.020 - 00:36:14.050

Yeah, mostly with the Inprint series and Gulf Coast. I've been an assistant editor of poetry for Gulf Coast, so reading, like, slush piles from Houston but also from other places, even, like, international submissions.

00:36:14.350 - 00:36:29.500

So, it's mostly an online community—or beyond my immediate cohort. But then I felt connected with other people who are not in Houston, but also in other places, writing about completely different issues.

00:36:32.800 - 00:36:45.370

And could you share a bit about your current, I believe, Stegner Fellowship at Stanford, [WP: Mhm] how you came into that? Yeah. Well, 'cause I stayed in Stanford, I stayed in Oakland for a day before I flew

00:36:45.370 - 00:37:02.110

to New York for events and then immediately to Houston. So, I'm not really exposed to what's happening in Stanford yet, but a lot of Stegner Fellows live in Oakland, which is like a 50 minute drive to Stanford,

00:37:02.110 - 00:37:17.270

and they tend to carpool to campus. So...also heard there's a more vibrant literary community around Oakland and Berkeley. Like, a lot of poets, like Bob Hass lived in Berkeley.

00:37:17.420 - 00:37:33.770

So—whereas, like, most Chinese or Chinese Americans tend to live in the South Bay, like, around the Silicon Valley area. And I know a few Chinese poets who write in Chinese,

00:37:33.800 - 00:37:45.830

but who work as, like, engineers for Google, and they live, like, an hour drive from me. So, it was kind of interesting how, like, we were separated within the same area, but then maybe there are ways for us to,

00:37:45.860 - 00:38:02.780

like, to connect with each other and to, like, create a community that's, like, more available, I think, for Chinese students coming to the United States. Like, a lot of people coming to this country having

00:38:02.780 - 00:38:19.340

writing projects on the side, but they're—it's difficult for them to get into the literary market or to seek help. So, I think it's important for me or for writers like us to–to help bridge different traditions and practices.

00:38:20.870 - 00:38:39.020

Yeah, absolutely. And then kind of with that, like, shifting a bit to talk more about your community and also—or, sorry, your career and your current work, could you share a bit more about your professional experiences in teaching and

00:38:39.020 - 00:38:58.700

academia? Just like a brief timeline, if anything. So, as part of our responsibilities as MFAs, we have to teach two classes per semester, and these are either 13-1 (?),

00:38:58.730 - 00:39:12.660

like First-Year Writing courses or Introductory Poetry courses. So, UH is a majority-minority campus and most students are from minority backgrounds. So, there's—apart from that, there are a lot of international students

00:39:12.660 - 00:39:29.130

from different countries, and there are also students who have been working in several part-time jobs on the side. So, it's–it's a very diverse crowd, and it's important for me to realize that

00:39:29.310 - 00:39:46.740

a lot of students don't have the resources to—or the knowledge to navigate college classrooms. So, for me, on my part, it's important to make sure that everyone gets something out of the class.

00:39:47.070 - 00:40:02.130

And then for most students, that means to read their work faster and to offer sufficient feedback. And for others who are experiencing difficulties, such as international students, it's important to sometimes give them,

00:40:02.130 - 00:40:15.630

like, grammatical advice or guiding them to, like, the language centers, but also helping them to realize the strength of writing. Like, it's not important—it's not that important—I mean,

00:40:15.630 - 00:40:30.660

grammar is important, but it's not that important. The most important thing is to–is to formulate your ideas, to make sure that your ideas are coherent on the page. And to do that, of course, I try to be very open

00:40:30.660 - 00:40:46.380

about my office hours, and students can meet me online or at the office. And most people tend to get a lot of help from office hours, but they just didn't realize or didn't have the confidence to come into the office.

00:40:46.380 - 00:41:04.340

And this office on the third floor of the English department is access-restricted. You have to use a card to get in. So, it's very difficult for undergrads to, to even know where the English office is. So, I guess it's the responsibility of the department to do something about that.

00:41:06.320 - 00:41:19.280

Yeah. It's really great to hear you having such, like, a firm, careful approach to your role as an educator, like, in writing–creative writing, specifically. I think that's really cool.

00:41:19.640 - 00:41:33.500

And where you were talking about how you kind of adjust that to serve, like, the current students that you see. I'd also be curious if you've taken on different approaches, like based on where you have—like, even in workshop settings also,

00:41:33.530 - 00:41:44.690

where you've done workshops in China versus, like, in the US, if there are differences you've noticed there. Like in my own workshops and or in the workshops I teach? In your teaching.

00:41:44.990 - 00:42:01.480

Okay. So, two courses I've taught—one of them is a language course, and the other one is an English Lit course that's titled Intro to Poetry. So, technically speaking, there shouldn't be a workshop

00:42:01.480 - 00:42:14.440

component in those classes, but I know a lot of students are taking English courses, because of their interest in creative writing, so I decided to include a workshop component. So, for example, for the Intro to Poetry class,

00:42:14.740 - 00:42:32.140

they could submit a creative option for the final project instead of an academic option just to write a paper. I also gave them the option of writing—so, like, the standard option is to pick a poem from one of the poets

00:42:32.140 - 00:42:48.300

discussed in class, and then write a five-page essay on that poem. But for the creative option, you could write your own poem and criticize your own poem using the critical methods we learn in class. And I think that's interesting for students to,

00:42:48.300 - 00:43:03.650

like, get a sense of, like, creative writing, but also be able to use critical methods to study, to apply them to their own craft as objectively as possible. I also tried doing workshops

00:43:03.650 - 00:43:22.190

in—like, unfortunately, my Intro to Poetry class is an online section. So, there were workshops that I made available on Canvas, but I'm not sure everyone's getting enough from those workshops, because really need an in-person class to be able to conduct a

00:43:22.190 - 00:43:42.530

workshop. But I'm definitely interested in trying those workshops in my undergraduate classes at Stanford or in the future courses. And then returning back to your own writing. Are there differences in your creative process or craft between

00:43:42.530 - 00:44:02.780

writing your original work or translation or self-translation? Yeah, I tend to find my English writing to be more lyrical, or I tend to focus more on the lyrical aspect of poetry, like the use of repetition or rhyming than my

00:44:02.780 - 00:44:21.050

Chinese poetry. Chinese poetry doesn't rhyme as much. And I think—I wonder if that's because I'm—I feel like I'm less precise in my second language, so there's need of making the language sound better or more musically pleasing.

00:44:21.050 - 00:44:38.570

So, that's one observation. And of course, like, you write about different topics in different languages because you're attuned to different literary traditions. You're also consciously or unconsciously writing for different audiences.

00:44:38.570 - 00:44:56.490

So, for example, for when I write in Chinese, when I write Chinese poems or short stories, I play along with sometimes challenge existing literary traditions. I sometimes write about domestic Chinese issues that are probably known to

00:44:56.490 - 00:45:10.830

everyone in China, but not to people here. On the write—in English, I focus on Chinese issues, but sometimes these are these become metaphors, or they become the backdrop when I talk about my personal

00:45:10.830 - 00:45:28.410

experiences or my family's experiences in ways that I think are somewhat easier for American readers to understand. But my hope is that, like, my poetry can be somewhat difficult, so that a non-Chinese or an American reader will be–will be able

00:45:28.410 - 00:45:37.740

to appreciate its beauty, but then a Chinese reader will get the references. And the American reader, if they're interested, can also develop references. I think most of them are available online.

00:45:38.580 - 00:45:56.430

And in terms of translation, I think I see it as a responsibility of bringing the ongoing Chinese dialogues into English. And the American book market isn't really interested in translations. I think there's only like 3 or 4% of translated

00:45:56.520 - 00:46:12.480

titles in the book market every year. And then maybe, like, only a tenth of that is poetry translation. And so there hasn't been an established interest, especially in contemporary–in the translation

00:46:12.480 - 00:46:27.990

contemporary Chinese works, because most works, most Chinese poets that got translated were–are classical Chinese poets. So, for example, Wang Wei has been translated more than a dozen times by academic translators and poet translators.

00:46:27.990 - 00:46:41.790

So, I think it's important to t-towards contemporary Chinese poetry and to establish connections or dialogue between American poets and Chinese poets. And the way to do that is through translation.

00:46:42.120 - 00:47:00.040

I mean, I hope more publishers are willing to look into contemporary Chinese poets and to see their experience instead of getting a new translation only out every few years. Yeah, I think it's really great to, like, hear and see your passion around

00:47:00.040 - 00:47:15.220

translation especially. I also was able to read your poem "Betrayal, or when a poet translates another poet," and I'm curious to hear more about that sense of responsibility or "betrayal" in translation, if you could comment on that.

00:47:15.550 - 00:47:30.760

Yeah, that one is a play on my frustration at translation because, like for—sometimes when you translate a text,

00:47:30.760 - 00:47:44.830

the only way to gather the text is to depart from the original, instead of staying loyal to the original. And sometimes, like I've been working with poets who speak some English, and they like to chime in, and they correct my translations.

00:47:45.100 - 00:48:01.280

Well, I didn't think their corrections were correct. Like, they were understanding English from–they're understanding English words from their Chinese translations, whereas we should only really look at these English words within the English context.

00:48:01.280 - 00:48:21.920

And there was frustration that—there was also like the more—at the bottom level of frustration with, like, whether translation should be loyal to the original or should they function—should they serve the original by being artistic in the translating

00:48:21.920 - 00:48:35.900

language? So, a lot of poet translators, for example, they would be very liberal about their translation, but by doing that, they make the translation very popular in the translated language. Whereas if you're an academic translator,

00:48:35.930 - 00:48:51.500

you stay very loyal to the original. Maybe you create a very accurate academic version that's not popular in the translating language. So, I'm–I vacillate between these ideas. I'm not sure which side I'm on.

00:48:51.530 - 00:49:12.410

But it's this kind of vacillation that gave rise to, like, "Betrayal." I'd also want to ask what the most challenging or frustrating part about making a career in writing and maybe also teaching has been for

00:49:12.410 - 00:49:28.640

you. And, like, conversely, what's been the most rewarding, what you're proudest of? I think the most difficult part, which is also somewhat true with, English Lit professors, is

00:49:28.640 - 00:49:43.190

balancing–balancing between scholarship and teaching service. Because teaching and–teaching and writing are two modes of practices.

00:49:43.220 - 00:49:57.720

Like, to be able to write you need an ample amount of time. You need to—I think for me, you need to stay alone. Like, I need to be alone and do nothing and think about the world for a while.

00:49:57.720 - 00:50:12.620

And as a professor, however, you need to prepare for classes. You need to sit on departmental meetings. And these can take an infinite amount of time. So—we have to fulfill these responsibilities,

00:50:12.620 - 00:50:27.000

otherwise you won't get tenure. So, the most important thing is to balance between research and teaching and service. So that's difficult.

00:50:24.330 - 00:50:43.600

And to some extent, like, I felt that as a grad student, and I think I've heard my PhD students voicing similar opinions as well. But then on the professorial level, like, things got much more complicated,

00:50:43.600 - 00:50:59.850

and we need much better time management skills to juggle all these responsibilities. With the rewarding aspect, I think it's–it's very rewarding to see students actually appreciating your teaching, or going to you for help.

00:50:59.850 - 00:51:15.210

And then it's rewarding to see, for example, English majors or creative writing minors coming to you asking for creative writing advice, and then you set them up with other professors who might be able to help them better.

00:51:15.210 - 00:51:33.840

So it's–it's–it's rewarding to see, like, there's still a very tiny community out there. Like, future generations of students who are trying to write and finding–still finding art classes valuable. Because I feel like sometimes the academic–the academia is offering different

00:51:33.840 - 00:51:48.580

kinds of creative writing advice to students than what they actually are going to receive. Like many students writing fanfiction or, like, very long novels, whereas we're teaching them how to write short stories and, like, academic poetry that don't really read.

00:51:48.580 - 00:52:02.440

So, I'm so glad that they trust us for—like, our advice. But I also think maybe there are ways for us–to us–for us to renovate our curriculum that better respond to student needs.

00:52:03.820 - 00:52:15.160

That's really wonderful. And then also being mindful of your time, I have just a few more questions. What advice would you offer to a young person pursuing a career in writing?

00:52:16.210 - 00:52:35.110

I think the best advice is that–is to find a mentor that can actually help you. And this doesn't have to be like—that person doesn't have to be in a creative writing program. It might be someone out there who you share work

00:52:35.110 - 00:52:53.020

with. And for me, like, the best mentor is someone who doesn't offer too much advice, or too harsh advice on your work. But there's–but they should be able to offer a sufficient amount of advice for you to improve in the direction you've

00:52:53.020 - 00:53:08.980

chosen. So, there are mentors who are—who can offer very excellent advice and then edit your poem to make it into their poem, which is not what they're supposed to do. Like, they're supposed to edit your poem into a better poem that still

00:53:08.980 - 00:53:22.480

functions in your own style. So, I think it's important to have that kind of mentor. It's also important, for example, to know how to play the game of creative writing, of submission,

00:53:22.510 - 00:53:36.520

of like submitting to journals and book contests, to be able to write cover letters, right? And then write artistic statements, right, to be able to get into residencies. And there are resources online, but mostly this

00:53:36.520 - 00:53:53.480

is—sometimes you have to reach out to your creative writing student to be able to get those resources, but at other times they're available online for you to find. So yeah, I

00:53:53.480 - 00:54:08.090

think the third point is to have a creative writing community that you can trust. And again, this doesn't have to be a creative writing program. Maybe these are friends, family members who you share your work

00:54:08.090 - 00:54:23.450

with. But it's important to always look for feedback and get, like, sufficient amount of feedback for you to move forward without worrying about your own writing, without–without, like, doubting your own writing skills.

00:54:25.400 - 00:54:36.200

That's really good advice. Thank you for sharing that. And then just a couple questions about identity [WP: Mhm.]. For the archive [WP: Yeah.], could you state how you identify yourself ethnically?

00:54:42.440 - 00:54:58.490

It's very hard to identify my identities–identities. I think—I'm a Chinese, but I'm also Asian American by my experiences because I've lived here for, like, eight years. So, I'm eight years worth of Asian

00:54:58.490 - 00:55:13.370

American-ness, but by upbringing, Chinese, and I identify with—I have childhood experiences in China that I find to be a valuable resource to write

00:55:13.370 - 00:55:28.730

about. So, I'm loyal to that experience. But I also know that my identities are—I have multiple identities that it's hard to say whether which one is, like,

00:55:28.760 - 00:55:48.060

my main identity. But I guess I'm just navigating between different identities and being, like, the global citizens of, like, being just Chinese or Chinese American. Yeah, absolutely. And then, when and where do you

00:55:48.060 - 00:56:01.230

feel most at home? Still in Shanghai, to be honest. Because, like staying at my parents place for, like, a while is a very good feeling.

00:56:01.230 - 00:56:13.860

But staying there for, like, two months is a nightmare [laughs]. So this at-home-ness is only temporary. Like, if I stay at home for like a week or two, it's great. But if you stay there for too long,

00:56:13.890 - 00:56:26.880

like, your parents start to hate you [laughs]. I'd also ask, would you say that you're still close with your family? Like, what's your current family life like? I'm sorry?

00:56:27.270 - 00:56:42.270

What's your current family life like? Oh, so I basically call my parents once a week, and then we discuss whatever happens in our life. That's family life to me right now.

00:56:42.270 - 00:56:57.060

And yeah, and then whenever I go home, it's a different kind of vibe, as I just described. Like, you know, parents have to get used–have to get used to your presence again.

00:56:57.060 - 00:57:10.260

And then you have to remember. And they always treat you like a kid, and that's unavoidable. So [laughs], I mean, I just guess it's probably better to maintain some kind of distance without being too lot,

00:57:10.290 - 00:57:28.200

without being too far away from each other. And yeah, it's important to visit them once or twice a year so that you can maintain that kind of relationship. Yeah, definitely. I think that's all I have within our time.

00:57:28.200 - 00:57:38.730

Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't covered yet? That's it for me. Thank you for your questions. No, of course. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I'll stop the recording here.