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This is Polly Moore. Today is September 15th, 1969. We're in the Sam Houston State office room 204. The interviewee today is Mr Warren Scarin. This is interview number 56 ta 25. The third one now set the dial to zero, the time is 9 a.m. Could I

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just ask you to give me your name and address and we'll see how this goes. Warren Scarron 20,835 Shower Crest, Austin, Texas. All right, Mr Scarin, could I ask you to repeat your name and address? And let's see if this is any better, Warren Scarron 2835

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Shoal Crest, Austin, Texas. Well, just to re re reiterate for the record, Mr Scarring, what uh I mentioned to you before, uh in the way of giving an idea of what we're looking for in these interviews, could we start back as far as uh say, Kenneth

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Fitz's resignation? Could you tell me how you felt about that? What meeting it had for you? Was there any uh a special event? Then all of the faculty meeting? We're, we're into uh Friday around dinner time and then Friday evening. Yeah, there's, there's one very little

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known event that, uh, I don't think more than three people know about. I am. It's funny because Mr Teague and some of these people, I guess, uh, not too long before Mr Teague and I, and we had, we had a, you know, we had a faculty,

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uh, a student leader, uh, Board of Trustees dinner, I think Doctor Gordon put it out and, uh, my, my, not my wife, Helen was my date and she, she and I sat with uh Mr Teague and talked for a long time uh about various things and

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he's, you know, I, I like Mr Teague. I still like him. I hope that I think he still has a degree of respect for me. But he and Helen uh got along very well and they, they were talking about all kinds of things for money too,

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to religion and, you know, to oil and everything. But I have the feeling that uh that he was more impressed with her than he was with me. Uh She, you know, was a lot more candid than I probably was. But the funny thing is that, uh

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really, you know, they, they see the university as, as students passing and they are committed. I, I'm convinced that Mr Teague is committed to giving a good education to these people as to the students as, as all the Board of trustees members are. But uh any

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special student unless he's a relative or known to them by friends. Uh If he's special because of an internal election or internal accomplishment. Uh He is very transitory and I don't think that Mr Teague or Mr Allen or anyone else until this thing happened, really knew

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me from Adam or knew what I was doing or what my position was. Now, Mr Lovett had by, you know, certain since I knew his son and also because I talked to him, you know, he knew what my position was, but he's one of those student

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leaders, maybe that's the way they thought of it, you know. Well, after the meeting now this, I was, the dinner is relevant because it was a very, very, I'd say within a week or so before the events of the, of that, of the 24th of that

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weekend. And uh uh Mr Teague and Mr Allen were walking out towards their car and after the faculty meeting. And so I broke away from the students and went over and started and walked out with them and talked to them. And uh I don't think that

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neither one of them knew who I was. Ex exactly. I mean, they knew my name but they didn't know that I was, was going to be the, you know, one of the leaders of the thing. And I said, well, what do you think is, what do

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you think is happening? You know, what do you, what do you think is going to happen. What do you think should be done and, uh, not baiting them at all? I mean, I very honestly asked him, what, what do you think should be done? You know?

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And, uh, I remember Mr Teague putting his hand on my shoulder and saying, well, Warren, he said, it will all blow over, it'll all blow over in a couple of days. He said, I said, well, I said, I don't think it will. He said, well, you'll

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see. He said the uh these are relative quotes. I'm not quoting him exactly at all. And there's no, there's no criticism implied because this is the way he felt about it and there's no doubt about it. Uh He said that uh the practicalities of life will

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catch up with both the students and the faculty that is, uh there are things to be done and once there's a job to be do to be done, you can't be doing a bunch of rabble, rousing and uh and protesting and all this and then it

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will, it'll all blow over very quickly. And I told him then and there that I thought he, he misunderstood the depth of the feeling and that he really misunderstood the problem. And uh I remember walking out to the car with him and he's saying that uh

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we, he wanted me to come down and have dinner, he wanted me to bring Helen, we'd have dinner at the petroleum club in a couple of weeks and we talk all, talk it all over and I accept it. I never, never got to finish the invitation

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but um Mr Allen was a lot more upset. I think at least he reacted, uh maybe his personality, a lot more depressed about the situation, I think probably because he was uh more directly in, in the position of having to, to act or react than Mr

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Teague was Mr Teague was a junior member of the board. Mr Allen was acting as chairman of the committee and kind of as Mr Lovett's replacement uh by Mr Lovett's illness. And that's deceptive because Mr Lovett, in fact, did the selection of Doctor Masterson, he's the

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one who talked to Doctor Masterson a and offered him the job. He also is the one it's my understanding from Doctor Masterson. Uh He told doctor Masterson told me that that Mr Lobo told him that there was no problem on the campus and that he would

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have no problem assuming we're all president at all at the time, when I'm interested in, uh ask you just one question about uh you're making a distinction between Dig's reaction and Alan's reaction when you talked to the left of the back meeting, going back to the

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car. Uh Did um did you get the impression that Allen was depressed because he read the situation more accurately or did you get the idea that he was depressed because he was the focus of the faculties, hostility. Well, you know, it's the most dangerous thing in

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the world to try to, to predict anyone else's motives and it's al, it's almost immoral, but we do it every day, I guess. Um, well, how you interpreted as what I mentioned. Well, if you can recall your, your feelings, did you, did you have the impression

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that he would have agreed with Mr Teague and the fact it all blew over or was his, was his depression more an understanding that no, this really won't blow over? Well, I'm not sure that that was the, I, I think, I think we have to look

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at it primarily at that particular point. Uh I think, and I, you know, maybe I, I run the risk of being completely wrong, but I think that he had put more personally on the line, I think, as I remember he got up and spoke and he

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got, he said some very personal things that he had had a 40 year love affair with that university. And uh and he had, and, and uh he felt more much more personally affronted and attack than Mr Teague did. Uh There's a line in the, in a

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poem. I don't know if, if you have it on your records written by one of the faculty members that I remember. Got you. The last line is something about Mr Allen cried and so did I and uh that would indicate that I, I heard that he

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did, in fact come to tears about the thing he had, he had, you know, he had laid his, his himself out and then he would have been rejected. And I don't think you can underestimate the, the force of that, of that situation. And they're, you know,

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they're two different men. I mean, Mr Teague is a, you know, he's a, he's a highly intelligent, roughneck, you know, he's from the country like I am and he, uh, he probably can, you know, he's probably used to being called various and sundry adjectives. Um, and,

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uh, probably saw the thing as, you know, as something that he could brush off. And Mr Mr Allen, I think, also knew probably that he was gonna have to face the board more directly than Mr uh Mr Teague would, I mean, he, he would have to

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go back and specifically to, to Mr Lovett and he would have to tell them that they had rejected it and, and that he knew what Mr Lovett would say and, uh, and maybe, you know, maybe, oh, I don't, I don't know about that. Maybe he felt

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that, that he, he knew more intimately the, uh, they're huge, huge sea of difference between, between the way, the way Mr Lovett felt and the way the faculty and students felt, maybe he saw the, the huge chasm we'd have to cross to ever make any kind

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of agreement. Mhm. Well, was there anything, um, in Friday night or was the next major event, the Saturday morning, uh, at the Gym Friday night, um, was important. William Morris who was on campus. Yeah. And I wanted to see him. I wanted to go over to

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Hanson and, uh, then at that point I felt that the best thing I could do was to, uh, get people in all the colleges and to get the colleges meeting and to be ready to receive any, ready to receive the feelings of the challenges within each,

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each college, I had injected a couple of alternatives into, into the situation. And uh one of which was to, of course, the March. Um but I really felt, and I know as a matter of fact, this went, it took a strange turn of events because I

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went to my college and it was, everyone was encouraged to go to their own college and talk about it that night. And I went to my college and Willie Morris was speaking and, and, uh then really Willie Morris didn't spend much time. I mean, I know

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I'm not sure exactly how much time he spent because I came in the middle of his discussion, period. But then, uh he left and I went up to the front and, you know, and, and we started talking about what the possibilities for the next day. And

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it's a real problem because, yeah, it was a crucial meeting because there were a lot of people there who kept saying, you know, look, we've got to, you know, we tell us what to do, you know, what, what, what should we do? I mean, you're our

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elected leader, tell us what to do. And I, and it was, it, you know, I'd say, took half the half of the comments I made that night were in trying to, to switch the emphasis for me as a leader to me as a, you know, as

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an organizer and as, as someone who could carry out the, the desires of the, of the people there, I think that was important because some, some of the people who later took a role in the thing got that idea that night and, and the responsibility was

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spread and the group started acting more together and everybody from all kinds of areas started talking, you know, and towards the end I was doing what I wanted to do. I just talk very little and, and try to assimilate what they were saying and synthesize it.

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Um I remember if somehow finally that the uh somebody I can't remember exactly who it was got up. And I thought it was kind of funny because I mean, I was, I was, I was flattered but it was, it was strange, he got up and decided

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they should have a vote of confidence for me as their leader. And uh so they got up and they, they had a vote of confidence. And, uh, and, uh, what I mean, they got, they, they did that but then immediately somebody else started talking about things

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to do and it, it was exactly the situation I wanted. They said yes, you are a leader but we're gonna decide what to do. You see. And so that's, that's why it was strange and it was significant. Yeah. Um, uh, let's see. How did the idea

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of the quote and ties come up? Was that just something that arose spontaneously or did somebody suggest it to? Somebody suggested that? I think so, as I remember, somebody said, it happened, somebody had suggested it in another college. They said, and what did, what did I

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think of the thing? And I said, well, what do you think of the thing? And, uh, it was battered around for a while. Finally it was decided more or less that, that would be a good thing. I can't remember how that, I guess. Well, it's strangely

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enough that I think a lot of the things that happened there. Not, strangely enough, I guess it's, it's logical in a sense but a lot of the things that, that, that college agreed on because I was there and Jim body was there and, uh, maybe one

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or two Iron Boseman was there. But, you know, a lot of the things at that college and agreed on there were other me, there were members of other colleges there too. But Well, see, this isn't he? And this is, uh, you know, uh, became policy, you

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know, where it's the coats and ties thing while it might have been brought up in some other discussion group at another college, uh, became policy there. Kind of, uh, let's see, I can't remember Friday night. Well, if there's nothing that just springs to your memory, we

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can move on to these other events. I'm interested in, uh, spending a little time with your, uh, meeting with Masterson. And, um, well, what is it that skips the whole? No. Yeah, that skips the meeting, the mass meeting in the march and everything. Right. I guess

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we ought to cover part of that. Uh, you're meeting at the gym. Um, well, there's several things that ought to be recorded there. First of all that, we got a great deal of help from the campus policeman. Uh, I used, you know, we had a walkie

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talkie system between myself and, and various other members of the group, uh, and various other people. Well, we took the vote by my walkie talkie and we ran the march by walkie talkie. And these were all, you know, property in the campus police, campus police. Um,

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there was, there was a, a robbery on campus in the morning and we didn't know about it but there, uh, one of, one of the people on the colleges called me early in the morning told me there, there were city police on the campus. And this

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is something I asked people to watch for because I, I just, you know, I just did not want city police on that campus under any, under any situation. Because my understanding of other campus disorders had been that the first real violence occurred when you got campus

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police who had no vested interest or no feeling for the university and they got on there, people got scared and they reacted to their fear and you got a compounded situation that usually ends in violence. Campus police in my estimation had no business being there. There

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was not going to be any violence. We had a uh a good, strong commitment from even the most militant people on the campus that they would let us handle this the best we could. Well, anyway, uh we ran a check through the police department, what those

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people were doing on there was a robbery. So, but then there, there was a point at which I think, I think that there was a point where the ca the city police were considering, uh you know, coming to the entrances of the campus and I talked

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to the, to the head of security. Mr Rhodes is a really great guy and who uh agreed with us and the dean of students, of course, agreed with us and they, they, they blocked off all the ex entrances to the university to keep anybody in voting

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s police from disrupting our March, which was a, a switch. Well, he made, ok, I mean, then they really, they really helped us out. Um, the athletic department helped us out by giving us a gymnasium. We really needed something that large. Oh, I think the importance

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of the gym is probably as a legitimizing factor. And, and we, we got everyone together, everybody had a vote and we got to, you know, we got to vote on the, on the situation. We got to hear various sides of it. We got to hear first

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publicly and, and directly the uh faculty member's reaction to the situation. And we were very careful to select people pro and con. Although frankly, the pro people, pro Masterson people were very scarce. It's hard to find as a matter of fact, as we, as it turned

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out, we really didn't have very many. Um And that we, it's not because we tried to keep anybody out. I remember just as I walked into the gymnasium, uh one of the gentlemen who was uh very much against what we were doing. A student came up

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to me and demanded a chance to speak. And I told him that we, you know, we had given everyone, it was well known that anyone who wanted to speak would, was to turn in their name and what they were, why, why they wanted to say it

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and that we were going to try to select, let's say 10 and 12 out of that group and that's what we did. And this guy had not turned in his name, he had not asked to speak until five minutes before and then swore he was going

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to make a real, that I was trying to keep him out because I wanted the radicals to take over and, you know, call me a communist, all the various things that you get called. Uh, was this problem? Were you, uh, partly disappointed uh at the, um,

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had your invitations to various pro mattress and people uh to talk? Uh and then disappointed at their refusal. Um Did you have any sense of that sort of thing or were other people making most of these contacts? Yeah. And that's, that's the case. I don't remember.

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I think Paul is one of the very few that I heard uh say anything. And I quite frankly, I did not, I was not convinced at all by his, his reasoning, the situation. As a matter of fact, I've got, uh, well, that's not really relevant. I've

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got some letters here that, that came to me after and during the situation. And one is from a guy who, yeah, was very, very much, um, you know, conservative politically. And uh we've been highly critical of the militants and radicals on campus and, and whose support

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I really wanted very badly in the situation. And he wrote, and I didn't solicit the support, but I mean, I wanted support from people like that because it, it would help me feel that I was doing the right thing. That's what I wanted, you know, I

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wanted to know and this guy wrote a letter saying that he was, you know, very, very much pleased and he was impressed with the fact that myself and the leaders wanted to do the right, you know, the right thing and that meaning, right, whatever the students,

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you know, felt was best. And, and uh so the people who were, there were people who didn't really care about Masterson really, you know, like myself, but they were, they were bound strongly by the fact whether the people who didn't like Masterson because they were all,

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you know, everyone was against the procedure use so that there were very few people that one of those two groups didn't get. And uh the marsh itself, I, I think it was more important to, I think it was more significant as a, as an event externally

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than it was internally. I mean, we marched and it was kind of a, it was kind of something that we all felt we had to do and we had to, we had to get the numbers out there and make them visible. We needed significant visibility in

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the media and uh and to the, to the outside world. And uh I think we conveyed the fact we were unified. Uh the sign that was led around was faculty and students united. Uh and the, the dress was, was unusual, was, was, you know, I think

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pretty much reflected the, the tone of the whole thing. I mean, everybody wanted very much to, to let people know that this was a legitimate march. And so we dressed legitimately, you know, I mean, that's, that's a very relative word. But, I mean, um, did you,

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uh, anticipate being able to have Masterson talk to the students, uh, if, if they could just wait until the press conference was over or did you not know that until you got the crowd up around the? Ok. No, I don't think, I don't think we expected

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that to happen. I remember considering it, but I, I really didn't think that it would happen. I didn't think it was really important at the time either. But, uh, so it became more of an opportunity that presented itself. Uh, and the, the problem was partly that

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the press, the press were to meet. Oh, I know what happened. We were to meet with the press. We were going to have a press conference in front of the, with all the students there and the press had agreed. But the problem was that the, uh,

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we got out, we got out of the meeting earlier than we expected. And, uh, the press had just begun and, and evidently Masterson's plane or somebody, somebody was late and their press conference had just begun. So we were stuck with the students out there talking. So

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what we, what I tried to do was to start groups of students, you know, and faculty talking and we, we dragged faculty members to the various quadrants of the group and started them, you know, circles of discussion on the thing. And it was very effective because

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uh uh and the fact that there was, we chose were, you know, people who are really articulate and I spoken and, you know, they got discussion going and there was a good, you know, interchange of, of ideas and things. And then it became obvious that the,

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and say who somebody and I don't even remember who it was. Somebody came up to me and said, do you want me to go and ask Masterson to speak? And uh and I said, yeah, because partly see the reason we wanted the press conference out in

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front of there, in front of the building with the students was I wanted the students behind me visibly in the picture, I wanted to read the student, the statement we had adopted and I wanted it very clear that I was not alone and not, you know,

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I'm out there making some kind of a demagogic speech on something that was personally dear to me or anything. And that uh so that, well, when we saw that the press conference was not gonna come off very well and I did not want to hold that

00:26:10.109 - 00:26:27.930

group together until, you know, X o'clock when the, uh, you know, it was going through lunchtime, that's what was happening and people were missing their lunch and with the prices they pay, they can't afford to do that anyway. Uh, much be as it is qualitatively anyway.

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They, uh, I wanted to let him go. So we dispensed with the, the press conference. Well, we had a bunch of, you know, we had the comments written and we were gonna pass them out to the press. But then I realized that it would probably be

00:26:43.780 - 00:26:57.050

fair to the, to Masterson to see the people there. And we fed the people who had never seen Masterson to have, you know, hear what he had to say. And so I said, yeah, and the guy, I remember seeing the guy and I can't remember who

00:26:57.060 - 00:27:11.709

it is run over and he, he asked him to speak. I think, I think it was the guy from KL. I was gonna ask you, but it's either the pre pressure or Kl, I've forgotten that uh there were a couple of KL people who attended, were

00:27:11.719 - 00:27:37.349

inside the press conference and one of the Kelme I'm sure. And they, they ran over there and uh he decided to do so and I went over to meet him, shook hands with him and we walked back together. Did you have a conversa brief conversation or

00:27:38.400 - 00:27:56.099

done? And I said something to the effect that I was, uh uh he looked shocked. I mean, yeah, I mean, he was, he was in kind of amazed, I mean, it's hard to tell because if you know him as doctor Masterson, if you've seen him, you

00:27:56.109 - 00:28:08.569

know, that he doesn't record, he's, he's very, you know, he's very calm. He's very cool man. But it's, but I felt that he was in, you know, she was shocked to see all these people and I said, I'm sorry that, you know, you had to, that

00:28:08.579 - 00:28:25.630

we had to meet in these circumstances and that we couldn't, uh, you know, immediately have a little more time to talk. And, uh, and he said, yes, something gonna affect me. We'd have to do the best we could with what we had. And, uh, I said,

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um, uh, you know, I find that you wouldn't, you would talk. I said, I think it's important for them to hear what, what you feel in that situation. He made some, I remember feeling that he made some real mistakes there and maybe if they were mistakes,

00:28:43.719 - 00:29:00.900

maybe that's exactly the way he felt. I don't know if he misread the situation or if he felt what he said. But students and the fact that they were most upset with, with his remarks and, and essentially he said that under no circumstances, will I reconsider

00:29:00.910 - 00:29:18.780

or rediscuss or anything? You know, what's going on? Now, I'm trying to remember exactly if it was prior to this, that must have happened, then some some of the, some of the people and again, you know, so many people were doing so many things. I'm not

00:29:18.790 - 00:29:39.869

sure which exactly which person it was arranged the meeting in the afternoon. No, they arranged. We were supposed to have one at 1010 30. No, that can't be right either in the afternoon, 430 maybe 2 32 30 problem or, uh, where to meet up in, uh,

00:29:41.140 - 00:30:04.520

doctor, uh, develop in the faculty lounge, a second floor, uh, Razor, razor fam. And, uh, we showed up, nobody had a key. So we all had to stand around in the hall and, you know, you know, how meetings like that are. You don't, nobody really wants

00:30:04.530 - 00:30:16.459

to start the meeting about the subject if you're in the hall. So we all sat out there and made small talk for a good long time. You know, it was kind of amusing because all this, the major problem was hangover. So we were kind of filing

00:30:16.469 - 00:30:34.130

around in a straight line, you know, up against the wall. Somebody got a key. I don't know, somebody got a janitor disgruntled. Oh, yeah. I remember one of the lady janitors was, didn't trust us, you know, janitors. I really have a real good feeling for janitors

00:30:34.140 - 00:30:49.030

generally. I mean, really, I mean, I have a more than normal, uh, normally good relationship with them. Some of the nicest people I have me have been generators but she, they're also very distrustful of anybody who wants to get in someplace and doesn't have a key.

00:30:49.939 - 00:31:05.410

So it took a while for her to decide we were legitimate. It might be interesting to just think about what would have happened if we had to do that in the hall. But we're all facing the same direction up against the wall. See, just talking into

00:31:05.420 - 00:31:30.500

the wall like a firing squad. Yeah. Anyway, we got into that meeting and uh at first, let's say, do you have, do you have the people who are in that meeting? I'm sure you do. And uh the, the main conversation I would say went between, between,

00:31:30.510 - 00:31:51.560

first of all the students at one level students and, and Masterson, uh Dean mckinnon, he didn't really say an awful lot. He, he was in a very bad position, of course himself because he had been there a long time and known both Masterson. I presently knew

00:31:51.569 - 00:32:10.599

an awful lot of the board members and was uh respected by the board but was essentially in a kind of a powerless position. Uh And Lee Estes was there and I like before we end to talk a great deal about his role and the role in

00:32:10.609 - 00:32:31.930

that office. And um, uh I got, I was in a position where I was trying, I was really trying to because I'd never met the man. See, I was trying desperately to find out where he stood. And I remember very well carrying in some prejudices for

00:32:31.939 - 00:32:48.250

him. That's, I mean, that may be hard to believe, but I really, I wanted, II, I was overcompensating for him as far as I was concerned. And, uh, uh, I had a great deal of respect for the college system, which he had an awful lot to

00:32:48.260 - 00:33:04.739

do with starting younger and I really felt that I ought to do whatever I could to, to help him out of this bad situation and to, you know, try to explain, explain to him our situation. Then I, I felt also that he would, he'd react favorably

00:33:04.750 - 00:33:31.619

to our situation. Um Are we taught for until let's say six o'clock or 630 something like that? And really didn't, uh, we proposed various alternatives and what were they? Well, I remember his, him saying that, uh, he had just talked to, uh, to Mr Allen and

00:33:31.630 - 00:33:45.959

that, uh, there was no, you know, there would be no giving on the part of the board whatsoever. They had made a decision, this was their job and that there was, there was no reason for them to rescind their decision. And so I proposed, uh, that

00:33:45.969 - 00:34:05.709

what he do is, uh, was to reject the final decision, bring it back to the point at which the committee, the faculty and student committee would review the situation. And no, didn't let us take it from there. Uh Just, uh, finally, we even got to the

00:34:05.719 - 00:34:22.790

point where I said, will you just meet with the faculty and the student committee and, uh, he wouldn't do it, uh, but he did leave it open because we left feeling like, oh, you know, there was still more to talk about because we planned another meeting

00:34:22.800 - 00:34:38.239

at 1030. He said he was going to call some people call the various members of the board and everything and, uh, oh, I see that. I see that probably as the case, I think he probably did want to call and talk to some of these people.

00:34:38.250 - 00:34:50.760

Not, I don't think he tried to, to go back and figure out a way to bring it back into the committee. I think he wanted to find a way to end the problem. You know, with his being president, the board having been justified and probably with

00:34:50.770 - 00:35:07.540

our, our end of the deal looking pretty bad, but settle us down, you know, uh, I might say that I did feel I found out later that the man did not know the situation when he got off the plane that morning. You did not know that

00:35:07.550 - 00:35:23.570

there was a problem here. Uh, see Dean mcenany went up to get him and he said that, uh, and then was completely amazed that there was that big of a problem. And he had asked, you know, as I said before, he had asked to not from

00:35:23.580 - 00:35:37.090

love it. As I understand he had flown, flown down here once Malcolm Lo had requested that he come down to see him. And at that point, Malcolm Lo had offered him the job. He said, I'm, I'm gonna go back and think about it and I'll come

00:35:37.100 - 00:35:50.149

back and he came back the second time and said, will there be any problem whatsoever? And he said, in the faculty, we can submit the consultant consulted. And he Malcolm up and said, yes. So the man got off the plane not knowing anything. And really, uh

00:35:50.159 - 00:36:05.350

I think that he met with us before he, before he understood the depth of the problem, let's say at 230 he still didn't understand fully 2 30 30 afternoon. Do you know whether he knew the faculty gold on Friday afternoon? That that would be somewhat indicative

00:36:05.360 - 00:36:20.199

he found that out on the plane, I think. No, maybe he didn't even find that out. I think Frank Van went to meet him and uh I think that's what happened and I think Frank Van might have told him. So then he, um if he didn't

00:36:20.209 - 00:36:36.530

arrive at Houston until 1030 probably neither one of them knew what had transpired at the gym there because that happened about the same time. I mean, your meeting started around 10 o'clock and these men were, oh, the gym boat. No, no, I'm sure they didn't. No.

00:36:36.540 - 00:36:48.530

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure that uh that I was thinking of the faculty boat the day before. That's what I was referring to. Yeah. Well, I got that settled. Now, I was wondering if, uh, the gym, it was definitely, he couldn't have known

00:36:48.540 - 00:37:03.600

about the gym. Right. At least at the time he was talking to the students over the horn. Uh, anyway, and I think that it was a legitimate feeling on his part that he needed the time, let's say, from whenever we quit meetings, six or 630 until

00:37:03.610 - 00:37:23.360

10 or 1030 to kind of find out, you know, what, what he ought to do and what the next move would be. But anyway, we, we left and, uh, what happened, I guess we went to, uh, have something to eat is this the night that you

00:37:23.370 - 00:37:50.739

dined, uh, with you and Helen with, uh, Barry and Barry? Right. Right. Right. Which damage? No, what to send me something out. And, uh, that's right. This is this, then this is when Mr Card came up, I went into him, um, trying to think what happened

00:37:50.750 - 00:38:09.729

there. Uh, I don't, I don't know if anything significant really happened. We talked, you know, we kind of enjoyed ourselves. I was really hungry and we just kind of talk and ate and Mr Cardell came over and, uh, and, uh, it usually gets to be pretty,

00:38:10.889 - 00:38:28.169

pretty goofy when you get very, and, and Helen and I, and, and her husband again. So I think we, we joked around a lot. But then as I remember we separated. I mean, Barry and Barry went somewhere and Helen and I, I took Helen uh back

00:38:28.179 - 00:38:42.000

to her mother's home or something. I can't remember where she were. But anyway, I, I met, then I met with, uh, say with Jim or somebody before this 1030 meeting. Do you remember what I did? No, I don't remember what you did after that. Ok. I

00:38:42.010 - 00:38:56.649

think, I think I went, so I got with someone who said it was Don Johnstone and someone else who said, you know, we've been, I remember saying we've been led, you know, we've been led around up and down and in and out some kind of a

00:38:56.659 - 00:39:15.530

maze and that, you know, he's really not, he's not really going to do anything. And my tendency is not usually not to sit around and, and judge what a man's doing until it becomes fairly obvious. I mean, within certain strategic limitations, fairly obvious what he's gonna

00:39:15.540 - 00:39:30.020

do. That was a surprise to me because I, I hadn't let myself think that yet. He was just leading you around. Right. Right. I wanted to see what, you know, because I felt as I just reflected that he had not had time to really go and

00:39:30.030 - 00:39:42.500

talk to the board and say, you know, what are we gonna do? How do we stand? And I didn't really know what, you know, if, if he had made a decision and I still don't exactly know what what the deal is, but the 1030 meeting was

00:39:42.510 - 00:40:07.439

a lot more exhausting. Uh, I don't know if I've had much sleep at all since, uh, I guess maybe a couple of hours since, uh, since Friday morning. And I was really tired and I think a lot of other people were too. Um, but we said

00:40:07.449 - 00:40:31.010

that, uh, uh, as I remember, we said that we really have. Well, let me, let me say this. I think that what what happened was that we, you know, we operated at two levels, we operated when we were talking about what to do. We operated levels.

00:40:31.020 - 00:40:48.899

You know, we have a, this is we have some alternatives here. Now, will you go with this on these, on these, on these possibilities and then, and the second level and you're probably more useless but still significant level is we reacted as individuals and sometimes even

00:40:48.909 - 00:41:03.439

as representatives of certain groups, certain types of groups on the campus saying, well, what do you mean? You know, what do you know, why are you, why do you say that or don't you respect the legitimate legitimacy of this student group or, you know, we were

00:41:03.449 - 00:41:26.229

reacting more emotionally and more personally. Uh I think now somewhere in between these, these two areas occurred a thing that he reacted to and uh le S was in there. And uh as, as he usually was, and the doctor Masterson went out to take a phone

00:41:26.239 - 00:41:52.659

call or something and he came back and said that, uh, uh, and that something had changed between, mhm. Between the six, the fourth or 2230 meeting and the 1030 meeting and the, now we were talking about a reviewing his qualifications to be president and that under

00:41:52.669 - 00:42:11.629

no circumstances, would he allow that to happen? And that, uh, come, you know, in conjunction with the fact that there was such a vast gulf between the board's position and our position that he could not do anything to solve that. Really, it was a problem mainly

00:42:11.639 - 00:42:24.149

between the board and ourselves, that he was going to go home, go to bed and get on a plane and leave and that he would be back, uh, in time to take his office and that, uh, by then you'd hope that we had solved the problems.

00:42:25.649 - 00:42:44.739

And, uh, so he simply refused to, to, well, let's put it this way if, if he finally decided all these, all these possible, if he finally understood what we really wanted at the 1030 meeting, he understood what we've been wanting all along. And that is a

00:42:44.750 - 00:43:00.439

chance to review his, his, uh, the possibility of his being president. If he just understood that at 1030 then he rejected it. If he had understood it all along. And, and, uh, thought there might be a possibility if the board would go along with it and

00:43:00.449 - 00:43:14.570

to find out in the interim that the board would not go along with it, then he rejected it again. So, I don't know, I don't know exactly which is, is the case. There are some very, you know, relatively tragic, uh, uh, things that were happening. Mrs

00:43:14.580 - 00:43:32.149

Mrs Masterson, I understand, was extremely, extremely upset during the whole thing and was in the, at the back of the hotel and very tired and, and just near a breakdown, evidently, uh, I feel very, I felt very bad about that at the time and what, uh,

00:43:32.159 - 00:43:44.310

what impact that had on his decision and tried to get her home and, and go with her. I don't know, but at the time the meeting broke up, the understanding was that he was, he would not want to meet with anybody. He was gonna go home

00:43:44.330 - 00:44:01.080

and then go back to the hotel and leave the next morning. Well, there was a possibility as I remember it of his meeting the next morning with us. Uh, and I think I jumped immediately to the, to saying that he was not gonna meet with us

00:44:01.090 - 00:44:18.639

because I didn't really think he was, uh, but there was a possibility. And, uh, then the next morning that Sunday morning, we, somebody called him and, and he said that he was not going well, I guess I called him. He called me, I'm sorry. He called

00:44:18.649 - 00:44:30.510

me at home. I remember and he said, Warren, he said, I'm, he said, I don't see anything that I can do further here. He said, I wish you, you know, I wish you all the luck in the world mind. I hope you can solve the problem

00:44:30.520 - 00:44:46.870

between you and the board. But he said, uh, he said there are such grave differences. I said, I'm afraid you're, the university is in for some real, real problems, long term problems. So he said, I'm just gonna go home and that was, let's say, 11 o'clock,

00:44:46.879 - 00:45:01.100

1030 11 o'clock, Sunday morning. Did you, uh, did it cross your mind even as a, as a fleeting kind of an impression that, uh, that maybe he was giving up on the situation then was sort of making up his mind to, uh, not to enter this,

00:45:01.189 - 00:45:23.159

this, uh, mhm. Enter, enter into this problem that maybe he was going back to see what he could retrieve at Chattanooga. I didn't, I didn't think about it then until later and I'll tell you what happened later. You make me understand it. But done, uh, that's

00:45:23.169 - 00:45:48.909

Sunday morning. The house was full of people. I don't really know where they all came from. I didn't know some of them and, uh, I think they were there before I was even out of bed. Mhm. They, we, we, there were faculty members there. I think

00:45:48.919 - 00:46:13.040

Dave Mender was there and Al Madison, I can't remember all the faculty members there and most of the student presidents of the colleges and uh we wrote out that statement that was released that morning, uh which was that, you know, which finally brought together everything and

00:46:13.050 - 00:46:31.620

said that, you know, we cannot have him, we cannot accept him as president because of, of his action or lack of action, whatever it is. So I've seen a copy of it but I haven't read it lately, but I, I saw it in the first one

00:46:31.750 - 00:47:06.889

through all the papers on it. I like to find that because I think it did reflect a fairly important void negotiations. Saturday. I recall one of the strongest words in it was that we find him unacceptable. Yeah. Well, that was the only choice we really had.

00:47:06.899 - 00:47:29.449

We had to, we had, we had to, we kind of had to decide by then whether or not we were going to, you know, try to work with Doctor Masterson and work with him, you know, and, and run back, let's say, through the regular method and

00:47:29.459 - 00:47:51.189

try to, oh, I'm trying to say that. Well, possibly, um, possibly we can, we can live with doctor Masterson if our committee can find him acceptable. But, uh you know, we just, we got to that point and we, we just couldn't, couldn't do that. Uh We

00:47:51.199 - 00:48:07.270

felt that he had refused to, to, to help us out of the situation that was rapidly uh accelerating towards, you know, a possibility where, you know, there was talking a lot of talk of student strikes. And with a lot of words at his, uh his little,

00:48:07.929 - 00:48:31.129

you know, when he spoke to the, to the marchers that afternoon was, you know, strike strike throughout the whole thing. Uh We just had to decide whether we were gonna go with Masterson or absolutely oppose him particularly. So that's when we really, we decided that as

00:48:31.360 - 00:48:54.919

from our point of view, we couldn't accept him. Uh That afternoon I went to and I think it probably, and this is Sunday, that's probably the most kind of the most crucial uh faculty organizational occurrence. Um They still had not organized, you know, they still did

00:48:54.929 - 00:49:13.449

not have a organization to work with. And so that that meeting was called Sun Saturday afternoon. I don't know who called it. I think it was under, under pressure. I think Dean Gordon called it. And do you know who was there? Have you got a record

00:49:13.459 - 00:49:33.379

of that? Yes, I uh I, I've constructed who all was there? Uh um My recollection of that is that it was, it was at that point that it was pretty pointedly put to Dean Gordon that he would simply have to take action or else uh they

00:49:33.389 - 00:49:49.929

were going to uh they have to construct some other, other structure or method by which to act through the faculty because the faculty was anxious to act up to that time. They had been helping us helping the student organization. There is no faculty senate at rise

00:49:50.000 - 00:50:11.429

is there, there's just no other faculty body, faculty council. Now, what, why was you taking the council operating? How do you count that? Well, it really hadn't been their job at that point. It's not even a faculty council as I understand it, the administrators outweigh the

00:50:11.439 - 00:50:31.810

faculty by two votes. Uh, it's not anything like a faculty senate. It's more a procedural, uh maybe a necessity to, for information, you know, council gets together because there are various heads of departments that must be involved when decisions that affect all departments are, are made,

00:50:32.250 - 00:50:51.040

not in a political or a philosophical sense at all, but rather a procedural structural sense. And the executive council. How do you uh I haven't heard you mention Diaz's name or Sam's name uh or Chapman's film ASIO and Chapman were both on the fact advisory committee.

00:50:51.050 - 00:51:14.479

So were they just were the, they were their presence just up obvious visible DEA was notably un invisible, he was not present at anything. Um Did you take that out in time at the time? We did, I don't think it's hot at all now. Uh How

00:51:14.489 - 00:51:41.060

do you explain it now? Well, I think that that Mr Doctor Depend, the other one has probably had, probably had mixed feelings about what was going on. Uh But uh that, that, that his, his involvement with the board since and uh also statements that he's made

00:51:41.070 - 00:51:59.300

uh made a speech to the Houston Philosophical Society that was uh the implications of which are that he would never have agreed with anything we did. Uh And then what he gained from our actions uh was that, that we were not far from the militants that

00:51:59.310 - 00:52:17.879

were acting around the rest of the country and not interested in education, uh being educated. Um I also have heard many people including many respectable members of the faculty saying that he frankly is making has made a bid for the presidency for quite a while. And

00:52:17.889 - 00:52:33.550

that it would be consistent with that if uh with his relations with the board, if he did not take an active role. Uh I think that that uh Mr Chap, Doctor Chapman's involvement with the board since then is also they happen to be the only two

00:52:33.560 - 00:52:53.899

people who did not take an active role, who are still presently very close to the board and are in a position of uh dealing with students and faculty. It's not, it was odd at the time, but I didn't know either one of them very well. So

00:52:53.909 - 00:53:23.969

at this meeting with Ian Gordon and the uh is this the meeting at which the decision was made to, to, to call the faculty students? Yeah. And uh I can't really, you know, I think again, that and, and simply because my memory is not, it does

00:53:23.979 - 00:53:40.409

not bring in very many, I mean, I I've generalized about it so long that I think that that generally the important thing was that the faculty did begin to get organized right at that point. And that uh Ian Gordon felt that, that he had to take

00:53:40.419 - 00:54:03.080

the leadership, I think also significant was that I brought up the idea and it was pretty well received from all the members there that uh any further action should be taken in parallel with students and faculty exactly act acting together. This has been noted the or,

00:54:03.300 - 00:54:22.139

you know, in all releases from then on that we, we signed them together and joined them. Uh that was very important, I think as, as you look at this event, historically, it was the first time, you know, I've been told by people who study these things

00:54:22.149 - 00:54:42.760

the first time that that has ever happened anywhere that they know of that, you know, the students in the faculty actually were legitimately involved together in acting. See, also Sunday afternoon, I think it was before the Gordon meeting. Uh you uh uh showed up for a

00:54:42.770 - 00:55:03.550

brief time at an open sts meeting. Is there anything in that meeting that uh stands out in your mind now? Well, the size of it is important. Uh there were a lot of people there and not that I really didn't. Uh it, it was important. I

00:55:03.560 - 00:55:17.739

wasn't surprised because people were uh were thirsting for meetings to go to and it was a real job to keep finding legitimate ways for everybody. To meet at the same time. Not, it wasn't a job, there are plenty of things to meet about, but it was

00:55:17.750 - 00:55:37.570

a job to, to actually get them organized, to find people, to organize them. Um, and the sds, I guess I've never felt more close to the, to the, to the SDS members that are they, to me that I, that I have that day. What I did

00:55:37.580 - 00:55:57.030

that day. Um, I remember, I mean, I remember being amazed in a sense that I think, uh, I was amazed, I was amazed but I knew I had felt this feeling this way before but I think a lot of people were amazed that they were at

00:55:57.040 - 00:56:14.060

an SDS meeting. They were hearing things that the sds had been saying for a long time and they, but they were pretty, you know, they were not strange, they were not militant, they were just observations on the situation that had occurred. And, uh, I was saying

00:56:14.070 - 00:56:33.169

because I thought they were extreme. They were very relevant to our situation and that the sds and myself who are, you know, have not always been really close. So, we were very close that day and, and I remember even getting a hand from a couple of

00:56:33.179 - 00:56:51.050

the real miltons. Mhm. But, uh, I haven't really, I don't think I really changed my, my basic feelings about the things but it was just that things were unfolding and we were, we were all observing them in the very, from the very same point of view.

00:56:54.870 - 00:57:09.820

Well, then Sunday night was a series of college meetings, uh, throughout, uh, the, uh, the campus. Uh, uh, if you have any special observations to make about those, well, I like to hear them otherwise they're pretty well documented and most of them are recorded. Is there

00:57:09.830 - 00:57:31.899

any, was there anything about them? They're especially pleased or displeased. You? Do you have any help? Mhm. Oh, I think the, well, let's see. 01 thing that happened that I don't think is recorded anywhere is that I want to the brain center of the opposition that

00:57:31.909 - 00:57:49.760

is the, and development and, uh, in the midst of it all because I, it was, it was a great time for me when these meetings were going on because I got to walk around without any by myself. And I could think because no one was anywhere

00:57:49.770 - 00:58:00.770

but in a meeting. So I walked around the campus and thought and I stopped in, at a couple of meetings and, you know, we, and listened for a while. But there also, there's also a lot of, because the next, next step is very important. But I

00:58:00.780 - 00:58:17.830

went up to the development office and, uh, asked him if I could help him with anything and partially facetiously. But, uh, you know, in a sense I was telling the truth, I, I want, on one hand, I wanted to give them all the all the releases

00:58:17.840 - 00:58:31.060

we had given out so that they could see exactly what we'd said. And I wanted to talk to Estes and some of these guys and they were up there and they were in as bad shape as I see in a group in, in a long time.

00:58:31.459 - 00:58:43.949

I mean, we were, we'd get in a group and we'd, you know, be up for hours and hours and hours and we'd be in there talking, you know, and still fairly vital. People would be tired and red eyed and, and, you know, but, uh, these guys

00:58:43.959 - 00:58:58.290

really look bad. I remember thinking, you know, it was a very natural reaction. I, I came up there because I wanted to give them the news releases and I walked and I looked at him and I said, can I help you guys with anything? Because I

00:58:58.300 - 00:59:13.330

really meant it, you know, can I get you a Coke? You look like you're dying and they were, they were in a torment. There was nothing really important. Went on up there. We, you know, they, they, they tried a couple of pretty weak attempts to get

00:59:13.340 - 00:59:42.090

me there to do something like, uh, you know, call it off, call a moratorium for a week or something. And, but, uh, it's kind of funny, um, then the, all these, these college meetings were going fairly well and that, you know, they were working, they were

00:59:42.100 - 01:00:00.060

really talking together and they were, they were opposing sides and there were various ideas about, you know, what might might or might not happen. I, I was pleased because I, I felt that for the most part, uh, what I tried to do the way I, the

01:00:00.070 - 01:00:12.570

thing I felt the thing ought to run was working. That is that no one felt like what they had to say was going to go unheeded and that everybody, I mean, literally everyone was participating in, in these discussions and there were, you know, all kinds of

01:00:12.580 - 01:00:26.840

heated arguments going on. But like you said, they were either recorded or recorded on tape, some of them and some of them were recorded on paper. And at least all of the suggestions that were being specific, suggestions were being, would be collated at some point and

01:00:26.850 - 01:00:47.699

brought together uh for a decision by, you know, let's say, by the college presidents and myself, the leaders. But uh so I, I was pleased with that. Um It was funny because the, let's see, the, in the midst of one of these things that somebody said,

01:00:47.709 - 01:01:07.739

or somebody told me, uh brought the thing, we've got to change the uh the voting, the thing we're going to vote on. Do you remember anything about that? Anybody else talking about? Yes, I uh I wasn't, I, I'm be about the what the Gordon Committee on

01:01:07.750 - 01:01:25.780

Sunday had agreed to, uh the change that I'm aware of is the addition of the phrase under the present circumstances, given the present situation. Right. Right. Right. I didn't put it up without this phrase so that some of the departments voted on it without the, this

01:01:25.820 - 01:01:38.070

phrase of the, I think that it happened. But there weren't very many as I remember because it was no big problem because I talked to Dean Gordon and I, I called 34 or five people and we decided that, you know, that was, that there were, that

01:01:38.080 - 01:01:52.360

was probably the best thing to do. But as I understand it, the Brown, somehow Brown College didn't receive this word. And it was pretty funny because I was over, I went over to my office and all these other college meetings were winding up and somebody called

01:01:52.370 - 01:02:05.229

and said there's trouble at Brown College. I can't come to, to agree on anything and there was some real fighting going on over there. Evidently, I'd like to hear that tape someday. Are those tapes available? I mean, of the meetings, are they? Yes, they're available and

01:02:05.239 - 01:02:26.179

I think they're open, they haven't been closed with the archives there because it was, you know, public in L A. Uh, but anyway, they, they called and said, get over to Brown College. So there was a guy, uh, Doug Lewis, I think had a Jeep or

01:02:26.189 - 01:02:40.239

a, a Bronco or a scout or something out there. And, and, and we, and he said, come on, I'll take you. So we all jumped in this Bronco and I was really tired and we rushed over there and, and somebody said, get up there and say

01:02:40.250 - 01:02:51.629

something, you know, and I said, well, well, what, what's the problem? And nobody seemed to know what the problem was. And so I listened for a minute and it sounded like they were arguing about, about that essentially that thing. And so I got up and all

01:02:51.639 - 01:03:08.949

I said was, uh, the, the change, I think this is all I said. The change has been made to insert the words given the present situation. Does that solve your problem? Never. And the meeting just disintegrated. Everybody left. I guess it did. And I just kind

01:03:08.959 - 01:03:19.689

of started laughing and I, I laughed so hard. I got in somebody's car, somebody took me back. I don't know who it was. There's a car waiting out there anyway when I got in the car and they took me back. But I just couldn't. I thought

01:03:19.699 - 01:03:40.479

that was funny and this had been decided on, like, an hour and a half ago. You know, poor people. Well, we'll see what happened then. Well, those meetings were fairly late in those apologies on Sunday night. So there might not have been anything else until the

01:03:40.489 - 01:04:02.159

next morning. Mm. I think it was after midnight when I'm around. Yeah, I know it was, it was like I, I did something else. I went back. Oh, I probably talked to the G A people, uh K LP, you know, they were all, there was always

01:04:02.169 - 01:04:17.379

something to do with the media because we were always putting out things or we were putting out these, these alumni packets, you know, of information and putting out media packets and we gotta talk about that whole thing too at some point here. Uh Well, now's the

01:04:17.689 - 01:04:31.780

time. Ok. No, it had been my experience with the media that you really had to, I had to keep them informed all the time. We couldn't count on them to come to you and, and understand, you know, they, they'd come in and hear the whole story

01:04:31.790 - 01:04:48.120

and understand it. So we, we had people's people whose job it was just to, to, to keep up with the media and K I finally kind of assumed that position, they released the press releases and so forth and then we, we tried very hard to get

01:04:48.129 - 01:05:10.750

as much information as possible out to alumni and to the members of the Board of Prestige and uh the office, it was a really, really significant, I think, kind of a unifying a series of events and the use of KL and the use of the senate

01:05:10.760 - 01:05:28.169

office and the whole, the whole student union became, you know, just a center of activity like all night long, you know, people were there all night long doing things, talking, writing, uh mimeographing things and, and, uh, you know, there, there have been many articles called on

01:05:28.179 - 01:05:50.479

the mimeograph revolution. You know, that this is the machine that is brought cheap media uh to student groups or we really use it a lot. Uh KL was really, really effective that was on all the time in all places. Uh Sammy's, you know, everybody knew what,

01:05:50.489 - 01:06:01.860

you know, what was going on because of K all and it just, it really brought them into the, into the picture and they just, they never been around and suddenly they came of age and were, you know, really important and it was very good for them.

01:06:03.189 - 01:06:24.540

Oh, you mentioned when you first uh started out that you had, uh since living through this experience, you had generalized from it, learn from it. And uh um I'd like to hear your impressions uh of that, but I, I have a, a question of curiosity first.

01:06:24.810 - 01:06:43.000

Uh for young men your age, you, you just seem to have a great little political acuity. Uh Do you attribute this to anything special in your background or horses or how, how did you, how did you come to uh developed this at, uh at your tender

01:06:43.010 - 01:07:08.300

years? Uh I don't know, I don't, I have abs, there's no way to answer that question. Uh So I'll do, try it anyway. The, uh I really, I, I believe, you know, and I think any political scientist would, would do we put this down pretty heavily

01:07:08.310 - 01:07:26.350

in a, in a way. But I believe that what I did was act, I just, I really opened myself up personally to the feelings and the vibrations of what was happening there. And it was, you know, just, I just, I, I literally let things pour into

01:07:26.360 - 01:07:42.780

me and put them through, you know, my own mind and used as logical system and a structure as I could to run the thing, you know, I mean, there was nothing, I don't think it's particularly ingenious about this. The structures we use. Kr was obvious. Uh,

01:07:43.639 - 01:07:58.679

uh, it seemed obvious to me that, that, that you had to keep the media informed, that I had specifically like the, the, you remember, you know, there was a, there was a tutorial project we started and we had a real fight with the Houston School Board.

01:07:58.969 - 01:08:13.300

They didn't want us to have it and everything and we got into a real fight and we won there largely because of organization because of media usage. So I learned a lot there about media and, uh, an organization of a, of a campaign in which the,

01:08:13.419 - 01:08:29.979

the public plays a significant role. Have you been active in student government? All your, all the time? You at rise or just mostly the last year or two? Oh, so you've been around three years, is that right before three years? Yeah. Well, I transferred, I was

01:08:29.988 - 01:08:52.668

president of the student body in Rochester State Junior College in Minnesota. And, uh, then I transferred to rice. And I became I designed and constructed and ran a coffee house up in Hanson College and uh did that largely because it was, I felt a needed thing

01:08:52.679 - 01:09:10.450

where people could, you know, could get together and, and uh cross campus and kind of break the isolation that the, that the college system might tend to, to give to university and the construction itself. As I mean, it, with any art object, if you have more

01:09:10.459 - 01:09:28.770

than one person constructing this object, you have uh you have a confluence of ideas and the construction of this, this thing brought together people from all over the campus. There was a Hanson College project, but we used other other talents, the operation of it was a

01:09:28.779 - 01:09:43.640

campus wide thing. And uh all I knew at the time that it wasn't going to be a real success until four or five years later, I, I still predict that it will, you know, it will become a real center of the, of the campus eventually. And

01:09:43.649 - 01:09:57.220

so I, I knew the way the campus operating probably because of that. And apart, and then the next year I was a senator from our college. We had to the student center and, and the third year president, have you been interested in subjects such as political

01:09:57.229 - 01:10:18.609

science and sociology, theories of leadership, uh things of that sort or that much? You read along the lines, you seem to have a very sophisticated understanding of the, the latest theory on these things. And I've never had any political science courses I've ever had any. I've,

01:10:18.620 - 01:10:36.419

I've, I've had, I have a sociology background, psychology background. Um, and I graduated in fine arts and, uh, you know, I've had, I had a, I had a very influential man in my life. I mean, there was a man by the name of Robert O Wise,

01:10:36.430 - 01:10:53.669

who was the dean of students at my junior college, who was remains one of the strongest influences in my life. He was uh was interested in student government and student personnel work and he taught me a lot but not specifically. I think, I think the thing

01:10:53.680 - 01:11:07.529

he taught me that, you know, the the thing I remember about the man, the thing I try to, that, that really is the key to what's the way I, I work I think is that if you have any intelligence at all, the the best way to

01:11:07.540 - 01:11:23.899

use it is to generalize and that if you have intelligence, once you can, once you generalize it, you can from that generalization, you can make specific tools flow. I mean, there are tools available. If you look, it's obvious what uh what specifically can be used if

01:11:23.910 - 01:11:41.240

you understand generally what's happening. So that I don't think my theory is sophisticated at all. I mean, I don't think, I, I mean, I just, you know, political science, I just don't know anything about it. What are some of the things that you've learned from this,

01:11:41.399 - 01:12:35.080

this uh Masterson episode. Uh Let's see. Um Then I think that sensitivity and that listening well and carefully to people is the strongest political device available to anyone. Yeah, if you can commit yourself, you know, oneself to action. No,

01:12:36.620 - 01:12:53.419

as unselfishly as possible to acting. If you know, in the way in which the majority sees best if you can translate, not necessarily the specific suggestion they give, but rather the underlying reason they are suggesting the underlying desire of a person to or a group of

01:12:53.430 - 01:13:16.629

people to do a job if you can, uh if you can really be sensitive to that, that there's, there's just un just endless dynamic possibilities to it. Um I really, I really, I really think that that group of people, I was tremendously impressed with the, with

01:13:16.640 - 01:13:37.220

the fact that that group of people, those students and students as a whole can do almost anything, almost anything they can. You know, I think in a sense that society best listened to the, to the students, uh and be best help them organize in a useful

01:13:37.229 - 01:13:54.310

way because if they don't, it is it just young people, uh with uh the feeling of moral outrage can overturn society completely. And that would be really tragic if it, if it occurred and, and if the only alternative left to them were some kind of a,

01:13:54.319 - 01:14:19.490

a violent or militant alternative. Um I learned to kind of break the break down the feeling about media that they uh that there's something special, uh they're, they're really human beings who's, who at best can give knowledge and give uh the exact situation. And at worst,

01:14:19.500 - 01:14:40.459

which is usually the case, unfortunately, they can give uh and in an inaccurate report of what's going on based on probably inaccurate or uh shoddy descriptions by the people who are acting. And uh and I learned the, the importance of, of making the, the media a

01:14:40.470 - 01:15:08.709

word of quality and by giving them quality information if you possibly can. And I learned that art. Mhm Art works, the principles of art and the, and the possible potential of art uh is just as great when you're working with the art of, of human dynamics

01:15:08.720 - 01:15:34.870

and human desire as it is in painting or sculpting or anything else. And that, to me, there's nothing more satisfying than to bring, let's say silence in a room, absolute concentrated, eager silence to a room of 1000 people who are listening to you or to, to

01:15:34.879 - 01:16:05.589

someone else or you know, who are eager to, to decide or to understand something that's happening. And that, that, that's, that's a powerful piece of, of art right there that, that moment of silence or of understanding. I also learned that there's no uh you know that

01:16:05.600 - 01:16:19.930

there is no myth. I mean that the, that the, I mean, the myth for me is gone. That just because someone is a president of the board or is a member of the board of trustees that he either knows what's going on or is qualified to

01:16:19.939 - 01:16:33.879

know what's going on. I don't say that specifically critical of any particular member of the board but that these men uh, that our society has evolved to a point where these, you know, people who are in on boards of trustees are on there for the wrong

01:16:33.890 - 01:16:50.149

reasons and uh that some could stay if the right reasons were, you know, were introduced. But many would, would probably be more happy and less frustrated and do a better job if they were doing what they were supposed to be doing and not making educational decisions

01:16:50.160 - 01:17:35.959

or, and now in, in retrospect, as I, as I compare, let's say, what is happening on the scale of government in the state. All right, I understand the problems in making, well, probably in a sense the reasons for the dehumanization of

01:17:35.970 - 01:18:00.490

government. And uh um but politics to a large extent and I really mourn it because of a fantastically human and organic possibility of politics. I mean, the thing that, that happened, there was a living creature. I mean, it was, you know, there was a, a momentum

01:18:00.500 - 01:18:14.919

built up by people trying to solve a problem with all the titles broken down. I mean, you, you got, you know, there was not doctor. So and so who knew more about this, just, you know, about what was happening because he was a biologist. But there

01:18:14.930 - 01:18:30.759

was, you know, there was Clark Reed, let's say, who was just another guy who you called Clark? You know, for the first time you sat down in his living room or Steve Kasian or, or Dave Miller, you know, who, who were, you know, when, when all

01:18:30.770 - 01:18:47.629

was said and done, they were dealing with a human problem, you know, and they were reacting as human beings and together with students, you know, and interested people, you know, a real human politic was, was evolved. So the number of people sort of removed their social

01:18:47.640 - 01:19:15.009

masks and set aside their, their hierarchical roles for a while and dealt with each other authentically. And, yeah, I really, you know, I really, I think that, that, that, that what happened there is important to the future of, of the university, not just because someone uh

01:19:15.020 - 01:19:35.799

did not come or we did not become president or that, you know, anything like that, anything that I'd, I'd much rather, I'd much rather measure the importance of the event with its social mascone too. I mean, I'd rather not say, well, we do not have a

01:19:35.810 - 01:19:59.640

president or I'd rather say that what happened was an experience that is going to be passed on and that it's a priority and it's a, it's a, it made proper, you know, human reactions to seemingly political situations and to seemingly educational situations, you know, that, yeah,

01:20:00.450 - 01:20:18.979

people normally seek to deal with and, you know, in structured, highly structured, highly unemotional, highly dehumanized the methods. And that, you know, there, there is a, there is a precedent there that I don't think the students and the faculty are gonna forget. Like I said, I

01:20:18.990 - 01:20:31.640

mean, there was a moment of human silence when everybody realized and I, I don't say it occurred but it occurred for everyone individually when they realized they were part of a university. You know, they were part of a group and they were, they really were there,

01:20:32.540 - 01:20:50.060

you know, dedicated to, to learning, you know, dedicated to knowing what was going on, what was happening. And at that, that moment of silence will not be forgotten that we live, live, at least, at least in the minds of the people who participated in it. And

01:20:50.069 - 01:21:05.979

hopefully, hopefully it will be reflected in some of the structures. I think it was, it was reflected in the structure that we left as when I passed from the student government. When we changed the constitution, it, it, it was affected, it felt was felt there. Uh

01:21:06.299 - 01:21:21.399

It was felt by this, by the radio station, let's say they, they sought to that now they're seeking to, to, to become a commercial station and, you know, and to, to really, they, they felt the confidence that they had something to give to the rest of

01:21:21.410 - 01:21:40.209

the community. And the whole, you know, the whole Houston area and the, they had to, they could do this kind of thing and, uh, there was even talk at the time of towards the end of the whole thing that, that we, but there would be a

01:21:40.220 - 01:22:05.359

student faculty senate, you know, one, just 5050 right down the middle. Uh, quickly I think the old social mask came back to some of those people and, uh, unless we have someone who really pushes for that, it's gonna be a while before that happens. And it

01:22:05.370 - 01:22:31.120

was fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was totally rewarding. The only thing that was totally tragic to me was Doctor Masterson because, I mean, the fact remains that no matter how much I expel and, and the virtues that I, that I believe very strongly are

01:22:31.129 - 01:22:59.890

there. And I know they're there that I remember walking across the campus. I think it was Sunday afternoon and the sun was going down and I stopped in front of the library and the campus was just beautiful, just really beautiful. And I knew that I knew

01:22:59.899 - 01:23:25.060

that he'd have to have decided before it left that he couldn't take the job because I just, he just couldn't come back. You know, I'm sure he, I'm sure he knew he was ready to resign before he left because it was, I mean, there's no way

01:23:25.069 - 01:23:50.700

that you could, you could come and commit yourself to that place. Knowing having entered, if you really loved it, which I believe completely he did. If you, if, if you knew that, that the, uh, that they didn't want to, this is what you meant a while

01:23:50.709 - 01:24:05.410

ago when you said that, uh, you, you had a deal later on that. But, uh, he must have had it in his mind to resign when he left on Sunday morning. Do you know whether Masterson was a revised for the results of the vote or what,

01:24:05.419 - 01:24:30.569

what was the vote results kept from him? No. Uh, he knew, I think, um, Doctor Gordon and I took the results over. It must have been Monday afternoon and then took them to, uh, no, we, we, we, I guess that wouldn't have been documented. Have you

01:24:30.580 - 01:24:48.790

ever viewed Doctor Gordon Gordon? Not yet. Well, he and I, uh, we're in a meeting of the department heads and the student vote, the, the faculty vote was in, the student vote was not in and, uh, we, we had an appointment with her all, uh, at

01:24:48.810 - 01:25:06.339

his home to deliver the results. And so I did not have the results when I left home or I left for her balance. I was with them with Doctor Gordon. Uh, we, we got there and I called back and, and then they, they had the results

01:25:06.350 - 01:25:27.649

and that was an interesting meeting. Uh, because Dean Borden, I think effectively had to tell him, you know, where he stood face to face and that, uh, who he represented and that what he represented was a total rejection of what they had done and who they

01:25:27.660 - 01:25:42.910

had chosen. And then, like I said, it was essentially a suicide on his part as far as, and I'm imparting to him a lot more desire than I've seen, you know, specifically that is, I'm, I'm giving him a lot more desire to be president. That I'm,

01:25:43.370 - 01:26:09.310

that I know of. Exactly. But I've heard that, you know, that, that, that was utmost in his mind up until that point. But, oh, what was Ellen's reaction to this news? Well, I don't think that, I think they were surprised that it was, that, uh, overwhelming,

01:26:10.229 - 01:26:25.020

that it was overwhelming. I, I, I don't know, it was never to be made public but somehow, I mean, I, it was not through me in any way, shape or form. Somehow I got it got into the papers and it may well have been that, that

01:26:25.029 - 01:26:48.540

one of the members of the board did not know that it was not to be made public. These are figures you're referring to that appeared in the Chronicle. I believe that was constructed. It was pretty clever. Huh? Amazing. Right. I didn't even know at any rate.

01:26:48.549 - 01:27:04.890

Yeah, they were, Teague was there and all was there and they were both pretty much overwhelmed by the fact that we, you know, the field was that deep. Uh, I think it was also important to them that, uh we had roughly felt after a meeting with

01:27:04.899 - 01:27:22.450

the department heads of the department that we would lose immediately. If, if there were absolutely no way out of, out of the situation, we would lose 10 full professors, 12 full professors immediately. And uh and then there were specific names brought up by Mr Allen. Would,

01:27:22.459 - 01:27:46.600

would such and such go and yes, would such and such go. Yes. And he was amazed at that. We kind of dropped the suggestion that possibly uh we should allow that they would help doctor Masterson find, you know, get his job back or something like that

01:27:46.609 - 01:28:02.049

or find a way out of it. And uh they really didn't react to that very much at all, which said to me that they were probably already doing something like that since they didn't reject it and didn't, they just didn't say anything. It was an interesting,

01:28:05.529 - 01:28:17.899

well, they, they, they both fell and of course, everyone is, I mean, not everyone, but a lot of the members of the board have told me this sense that they felt that I had been duped. Um And this, this thing has come up before that I

01:28:17.910 - 01:28:34.250

had been duped and students have been duped by faculty members and that uh we were led into a, a blind alley, you know, and that we were gonna suffer for it eventually. And so was the university. And then of course, the opposite. Exactly, the opposite was

01:28:34.259 - 01:28:55.890

true. And the faculty didn't have any leadership whatsoever and the students learn and they'll, they'll admit it usually. And for my part, nobody let anybody because of the man involved until the very, very last, when he proved himself, you know, unwilling to further negotiate on it,

01:28:57.399 - 01:29:19.819

was there ever a time during this whole episode that, uh the militants uh were um in any danger of taking over the, the campus or other movement? Uh No whatsoever, it's completely neutralized by the action of the, of the legitimate student leadership. There were, there were

01:29:19.830 - 01:29:42.689

individuals who, oh well, I mean, in a sense that and I'm not attacking you, but in a sense that um that doesn't take into account the very basic uh the most basic honest militant feeling. And that is that, that what happened is a part of a

01:29:42.700 - 01:30:02.290

continuum that is happening all the time. And uh really in a sense because they did not take action uh proves that that they are more committed to what they really believe than, than most media people. And, and you know, most people give them credit. In other

01:30:02.299 - 01:30:20.609

words, they are not, not, they don't want to start necessarily uh action on this one thing, you know, but rather the continuum that they think is existing, has to, has to reach such a point where everyone, let's say after a series of events that everyone sees

01:30:20.620 - 01:30:36.419

the continuum. And if I were a, a militant, uh, I would, I would say that it wasn't the right time to act. I don't know how many of those people could put in that category that they felt it wasn't time to act. And I think the

01:30:36.430 - 01:30:46.700

majority of the, the SDS people felt that we were doing the right thing. As a matter of fact, I was helped, you know, by people who were in the sds as much as I was by people who were not, you know, I mean, they were, they

01:30:46.709 - 01:31:02.100

were very, they were very helpful and, but you know, there are individuals of course, in the group who, who said that we were doing, you know, doing what was, what could be done, but that, you know, it was, was invalid and it wasn't really eventually going

01:31:02.109 - 01:31:18.669

to do any good. And that's, that's the, that's the criticism that has to be dealt with because uh no, I, I personally my sources in rice, I'll say that it looks, it looks like the presidency is going to come out to be some kind of a

01:31:19.299 - 01:31:36.819

of a synthesis, synthesis of the ideas of both students, faculty and, and the board. Now if that happens and that's in a sense that proves them wrong. But at the same time, the whole, the whole uh corporate mentality, the whole corporate idea of running a university

01:31:36.830 - 01:31:54.569

like the corporation was not purged because we did not receive this one man. As president and there's, I have no illusions about that at all, as I said. Uh but, but I prefer to measure what happened there in terms of a human response as a human

01:31:54.580 - 01:32:10.649

situation rather than what it did corporately to the university or structurally the university. So I'm satisfied with what happened at that level. Now, if you want to politically talk about it, you know, that's another situation. We may well not have done anything except to have brought

01:32:10.660 - 01:32:31.930

some things out into the open, which is, you know, I think good. But we have, you know, we very, we have very few, had very few people who were, who were militants on the campus. Uh, in the full sense, we had, most of the people were,

01:32:33.129 - 01:32:49.410

as most people in education are, who are very, very intelligent, are, are much too caught up in trying to decide which is the best way to act, you know, to really, to act, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm not evaluating that. That's probably the

01:32:49.419 - 01:33:07.000

best way to be but it's not, uh, it doesn't make for a good radical or a good, a good militant, right? It doesn't get too much done, does it? No, no. Well, you, uh, you've been at this for quite a while, I suppose you discovered this

01:33:07.009 - 01:33:30.180

is a pretty t experience and sort of a total recall uh, situation. Is there anything you'd like to add before we, uh, close the interview? Oh, the development office? I gotta talk about that. That's a, that's a very, the only word I can think of is

01:33:30.189 - 01:33:52.160

a scary use of, uh, of, uh, professional acumen. Uh, you get together a group of people who I think, who are professional media men and you put them in the, in the job of making the university look good and they're equipped well equipped to handle media.

01:33:52.500 - 01:34:05.490

Now, I think that any one of them who are honest, must admit that we beat them at their own game and we beat them good. And I'm not saying I beat them, but we had a lot of good men who used good sense and, and, and

01:34:05.500 - 01:34:22.250

out media them. But unfortunately, we don't, the students and you know, and the faculty do not have that they ready daily. They don't have people concentrated like we did then. So that what is happening is we have a group of people who are making it. Unfortunately,

01:34:23.240 - 01:34:42.189

in the development office are making political decisions and are making decisions on the about the future of the university, about how the university appears to other people about how, who will give money to the university. Uh Sometimes they, they, you know, they shield the university other

01:34:42.200 - 01:34:58.240

times they expose areas that are just, you know, are nonsensical and worthless and they really don't contribute at all to the university just to make the public, you know, look fair, uh favorably on it. But during this crisis, uh, the question came up several times and

01:34:58.250 - 01:35:15.729

I think it's one that I'm not sure I can answer, but it's one that ought to be answered. And that is, we didn't have a president and we didn't have a, the chairman of the board was in the hospital. We didn't, the chancellor wasn't even there

01:35:16.250 - 01:35:38.970

who was running the university. Yeah. And it's been suggested that the head of the development office run university and his people running the university and they were putting into action, the feelings that they caught from the board of trustees. Uh Maybe, maybe that was the case.

01:35:38.979 - 01:35:55.680

And if that is the case, then, you know, that's, that's a bad case because these guys are, are, you know, they're media people and that's it. They, they do not know they're not educationally orient necessarily. They're not, they're not, they don't have prerequisites of degrees in

01:35:55.689 - 01:36:12.859

education or degrees in philosophy or in political science or anything else. They just know how to write things down and, and to do it relatively clearly or relatively uh cloudly if that's the case to them, you know, uh there have been certain changes in the Development

01:36:12.870 - 01:36:33.700

Office uh since then that uh I don't think they're necessarily good at all, but uh that a actually will make the Development Office much more responsible to uh responsive to the needs and wishes of the board of trustees probably. But uh that whole, that whole thing

01:36:33.709 - 01:36:52.709

is really, maybe it was simply a situational happening, maybe it just happened because things, everything else happened in certain ways and ended up with the development office in a position of power. But, uh, there are an awful lot of faces of the university that have been

01:36:52.720 - 01:37:16.279

painted uh by that, by that group and priorities for the university that have been painted by that group in the past. That would lead me to believe that they're more important than they should be. Does it strike you as strange that uh they're, that they're given

01:37:16.290 - 01:37:36.000

the inactivity of the uh chief executive office, which I guess was for a time. It seems strange to you that uh uh with this corporate mentality that you mentioned that there was no effective second enchant of management who could take over, you know, run things in

01:37:36.009 - 01:38:04.549

a crisis that have had to devolve on a non-professional group. So to speak. Strange. Well, government by committee, isolated committee is dangerous and that's really the way that the university was being run. Uh The executive committee was isolated in a, in a large sense, they were

01:38:04.560 - 01:38:18.020

making decisions that uh were not organic decisions. Do you think I should qualify what I mean by organic or does that, is that fair? I'm not sure. Uh keeping in mind that nobody's gonna be looking at this for five years, the word may have taken on

01:38:18.029 - 01:38:37.990

a different color at that time. So I think that it would be helpful if you uh describe what you mean. I mean, in a fairly narrow sense that, that it comes from, that it grows out of the body affected. So that, that the executive committee was,

01:38:38.509 - 01:39:02.290

uh there, there is no reason to believe that because you put together the Dean of Humanities, the Dean of Engineering, uh uh the business manager. And uh it was the third one for the fourth one. Now I see you the chat, chat room and whatever his

01:39:02.299 - 01:39:18.459

position was at the time, I can't remember exactly what his position was. But anyway, there's no reason to believe because you put those people together, they're going to be re, you know, responsive to the, to the bulk of the community, you know. Well, the fact of

01:39:18.470 - 01:39:34.839

the matter was that, that they weren't and that Gordon felt the community that Sims, I am afraid in my, you know, my limit and I'm being terrifically unfair to him because I have never really even talked to the man, but I'm judging from his actions and

01:39:34.850 - 01:39:53.229

his, his priorities that I've seen the evidence. Uh, he was very close to the board of trustees and didn't feel the students of the faculty at all. The Chapman and Topazio were torn. Well, you've got an instantly emasculated group mainly because they were not, uh they

01:39:53.240 - 01:40:10.229

couldn't take action because they were not responsive to the, to the majority or even totally to the board. So, and there was no, there's never been a really a lower, a lower echelon, you know, of, of executive there. I mean, and if there had been, it

01:40:10.250 - 01:40:24.350

would have been rough. Well, you, you can, you can look at people like Dean Pfeiffer who finally resigned or Dean mcenany who was broken, you know, in a sense, but he's, I mean, not irreparably, but I mean, he was broken at the time because of his

01:40:24.359 - 01:40:47.439

dual loyalties, you know, and as was Dean Pfeiffer and Dean Poindexter left, uh there was no one to see. Unfortunately, there was no one to see the thing coming, you know, in a sentence, no one knew that it was gonna happen exactly what they did. But

01:40:47.450 - 01:41:21.029

that's, that's what happens when you start equating profit with, with human progress, you know. Right. Oh, and I've gotta tell about a man's letter, how to tell about that, man. I don't think I have it. And boy, that's the, the, the one thing. Well, I'll talk

01:41:21.040 - 01:41:35.259

about a phone call because I don't think I can remember more accurately. I got a phone call when I was sitting and this, I'd like to have you turn off the tape after this right after that. I wanna end it with this, uh sitting in the

01:41:35.270 - 01:41:51.379

office and a man called and he said, uh he said, is this Mr Scary? And yes, he said my name is uh X. I don't I don't, I don't remember the name. He said, I'm, it was during a dock strike. He said I've been down here

01:41:52.040 - 01:42:06.870

for, well, either right after the dock strike or during it. I'm not sure which, but I've been here for 12 weeks. He said I've been sitting in a hotel room. He said, I, he said I've been all over the world. I, I've been working on, on

01:42:06.879 - 01:42:37.799

the ships and then he said I haven't had anything to do. And I've been in this port, he said, I've lived in New York and in California. And he said, I know exactly what you're up against. I said, you're, you're up against same thing I've seen

01:42:37.810 - 01:42:50.609

since I was a little boy. He said I haven't had any education. He said I haven't been to college. He said I read a little bit but he said you're gonna find it all over the world. He said, and that's hollow men who do not know

01:42:50.620 - 01:43:05.890

the quality of life. And they said, keep up the good work. That's it. Yeah.