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Welcome back. Welcome back. Um Our panel today um is voices of the red book, a window in Black Houston's Past, really excited about this panel you're in for a treat. This is a panel um that is really like a blend into the past, but also that

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intergenerational dialogue that we were talking about at the last um scan. So take it. Do you wanna see my question? Yes. Hello. My name is Alison Bullock and I'm one of the moderators of this panel today and hi, I'm Georgia Jensen. I'm the other moderator of

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Hispanic thing as um she just said our panel is voices of the red book, a window to block Houston's past a little bit of context for red. It's a compendium on what Black life was like in 1915, about 50 years after emancipation. It contains great information

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about individuals, businesses, schools and churches and it just gives us a window into what like life was like for middle class Black Houstonians in the early 20th century. So, since 2019, there's been a research project um looking at the red book and uh mapping some of

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the locations that are listed in it and also writing extended biographies on some of the Indi individuals listening to the red book, some of whom um we have living descendants that we found and some of those are doing today. So, um starting here, would you like

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to introduce yourself? My name is Clayton Catchings. And um I am the descendant of Robert Merritt Kings. I grew up in Sunnyside and uh my grandfather was one of the uh movies and shakers. Shakers of Houston back in early 19, um, clay casts, I believe, and

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woods. And uh I'm pretty good. They keep coming as well. Uh Grand daughter, red color, those heavy limbs. And Henry O VS was a prominent contributor to Houston. Ok, blacks and history, but of course, in the, in the 19 forties and earlier, of course, and hi

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everyone. I'm Patri Brand and Isaac and I am a native Houstonian. My great grandfather uh was the official photographer for the Red Book and um uh had a thriving business in Houston's Streetman Town. And, um, and so just happy to be here if I'm on this

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journey of learning more about him, uh ensuring that certainly with my family, but with others. So thank you all for being here with us today. Um, that we can kind of start with our questions. Our first question is just, um, was there anything that you knew

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about your Red Brook ancestor before finding out about the Red Books or have you done um, any research into them or maybe, um, something that you might have heard from your family member or something. The first. Well, um, I had in my house, a steamer trunk

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that belonged to my grandfather. He passed it to my father and it said in our office, uh old rebroke for years. When I looked at the steamer trunk years ago I saw this book, the red book. It was in a big envelope and it had on

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that at my grandfather, uh send it to have it rebound because as you can see, it's in very poor shape. But that the uh the book company who was gonna repair it said that it was in too bad a shape for them to try to repair.

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So I, I looked at my granddad's page and picture in it, but not much beyond that. I was working at the time and then, and Children raising Children and things like that and all of those things took precedent over going through this book and reading it.

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Uh It wasn't until I retired in 2003 that I went back to that steamer trunk and uh pulled out the book and uh a little bit after that, I started trying to put together my family and my family tree and I am, I am I getting

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off topic and you know, uh I see I'm 76 years old and I can't remember everything all the time. So sometimes I battle but, uh, uh, I started putting together a spreadsheet, just an Excel spreadsheet so that the family members could keep up with each other.

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Uh, birthdays, email addresses, things like that. And then somebody gave me a, uh, so called family tree maker and I started putting the stuff in, like, I don't know, probably a year every now and then I put stuff into it and then somewhere along the line

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I got hooked. Mhm. And I would spend 68 hours a day working on that family tree. But the basis of starting it was this book and my grandfather's picture in it. So the red book had, it was the catalyst that started me on this journey and

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I'll tell you more about it later. Ok. Ok. Ok. Just, uh, was there anything that you knew about your Red book ancestor before finding out about the red book? You talk here? What we, what we were told, uh, is that he, we can hear? Oh, I'm

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sorry. Oh, yeah. We knew that he lived, uh, off of Scott Street in Houston. And, uh was, was very instrumental in the forming of the national choir as of postal employees in a pe and, uh at one point he owned homes, he had a family, owned

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two story home and he owned homes on the same block. And at that time, he wasn't able to, uh, come up with, I think it may have been $5000 so loss of other homes. Um But what we knew, well, I was telling him that my family

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did talk a lot about HL commands. Um We knew, you know, that he was uh very instrumental in helping people in Houston and around the, around this country as a result of the organization. But uh they did talk a lot about him. Um And why there

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was, I don't know and why we didn't ask a whole lot more questions is another thing. But uh yeah, we, we knew something called, yeah. And uh that's, yeah, that's basically a um for me. So I learned about my great grandfather through my father when I

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was very young. And um I remember being six years old and my father took me to an exhibit at the Houston Center for Photography because my grandpa, my great grandfather was on display there. Um And a little bit about my just kind of my father age

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dynamics wise. II, I would love to think that someone thinks I'm 20 but I'm not, not, not in my thirties. So I was saying that to say that, but I am in my forties and I have a, if my father was a right now, he would

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be 100 years old and that's not normal. But I guess what I'm saying too is that he was connected like I got stories, you know, in this generation of a great grandfather because of my father's age and, um, he looked up to, my father, looked up

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to my great grandfather very much because my father himself had a very troubled childhood. Um, and his father wasn't necessarily always in the picture, but my great grandfather was. And so I grew up knowing is that he was a very upstanding man, a businessman, um, very

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respectable and just, um, you know, I think it's a lot of the reason why, you know, I'm here today because my father's life changed because of him. So just on a personal note, that's what I know. Um I have a manila file at home that has

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a couple of artifacts. Not a lot. Um I don't have any of his, of my great grandfather's photography, but I do have, you know, write ups about him. So, is anyone familiar I know some in here are familiar with the Houston Post, but maybe for like

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younger folks in here, there was another newspaper in addition to the Houston Chronicle, the Houston Post. And, um, and even, and so in the Houston Post, they wrote about my great grandfather passing away and there was an interesting story in there that he, um he's from

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Arkansas and he came to Houston in 1910, but specifically, he actually took a, a photo of uh President Roosevelt at one point when he was in Arkansas. Now, the story doesn't end well because he sold that photo to someone who then blew up and kind of

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benefit it off that photo. But it was my great grandfather that, you know, that kind of pick it up, you know, just little memories like that you sort of hold on to and you wonder kind of uh what all that meant um for the time period.

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But I knew a lot, uh a lot of positive things about him just in terms of his spirit. And I think that translated to my father into, to me today. So I'm really grateful for that. Thank you so much for those answers. Our next question goes

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a little bit into what Mister Kings was talking about with the research. So, um have you all done any of your own research into your red book ancestor? And if so, what was the most interesting thing that struck you about them? And if you haven't, that's

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totally OK. But is there anything that you plan to look into in the future or that you would particularly like to know about your ancestors? Sorry. Wow. Let me, we walk Michael Jackson back a little bit. Tell you something about my granddad. Uh He was a

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stigma about education and he made sure that every one of his Children, he had uh five boys and a girl, all went to college. Every one of them graduated. He himself went to University of Chicago Wayne College, Detroit Bradley Polite Institute, Te Texas Southern School of

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Law. But he graduated from Prairie View in 1906. I have a picture of him standing on the steps of colored high school on San Felipe where he was a teacher in 1911. Uh I also have a, a photo of him instead in front of the Y

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MC A for colored people. Uh with several men were very influential, influential in Houston and some of them have schools named after them right now. Eo Smith, Pope Lockett uh mccoy. Um and these people were very influential in Houston. Uh My granddaddy was a lawyer, an

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architect, a principal, a mason and a realtor. So he was uh a very good example of what uh we could achieve. And this is in the early 19 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, he achieved all of this. And then he made sure that every one of his

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Children um got an education. Did you want me to talk to you about them or do you want me to talk to you about the book or um just anything in your research that struck you in my research? Well, I told you about that steamer trunk

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in a trunk was so much stuff. It was amazing. I threw away the yesterday's green stamps and um the coupons for uh encyclopedia Britannica. I threw those away. But I kept all of the postcards, the letters, the pictures, the uh um uh I actually took those

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stamps and see if they was worth any money. Um There was so much in there that uh I just was fascinated with what my grandfather was doing. And uh as I mentioned earlier, I started doing this family tree thing and I, I got to merge it

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together the things that came out of that trunk with uh the family tree software and started digging, trying to find my roots. And um I started putting together it all together in book form. And um in 2009, I put out the first edition of this book

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and I put it out again in 2014 because I found some more information. And then during the COVID period, Lord Behold, two of my relatives who had been not communicating earlier when I sit down, one of the things that you find when you're trying to do

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this type of stuff is uh I reach out to every relative that I had and I asked him to send me pictures and cards and letters and everything that they have. Because in, in his book is a biography of everybody in my family, every, every living

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or did remember as a biography in this book. And then there's some history about slavery and things like that. But um I got to, to uh putting this thing together and then during COVID, they sent me some information that took me down my grandmother's side, which

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had nothing to do with the red book. But uh she was married to my grandfather, but I found that on her side, my great, great granddaddy over there was a Polish Jew had a slave named Ben and it had a son who was quite possibly one

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of the very first students to attend PB AM U. They call him the unknown. A and uh we're, we're digging right now to find out if he is, in fact one of the unknown a pre and uh probably 40% of my family graduated from Purview and

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then another, um, uh, 12% from TSU and then probably 7% from Howard Universities. But I made that point to say the impact that my grandfather had on his Children was passed out to my generation. And, uh, everybody on my generation, you know, we're the majority of

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us have college degrees and we, uh, we have jobs, uh, that's been uh, the entire drug spectrum, uh, from doctors to, uh the preachers anyway. Um, I had a great time doing this book and, uh, I'd be willing to share it with you. It's at the

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Gregory Library in case interested in checking it out, uh, in your hand. Uh I'm probably around too much and you hold the paper up there and stop. Ok, I'll, I'll stop for a moment and I'll talk a bit more later. Thank you. This is, yes. Um,

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my research basically started on, uh, oh, I'm sorry. It started back in the early seventies in New York City when the N A PE organization I contacted them and they gifted me with the, the whole history of the N A pe and, you know, as a

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paper form back then, um, which was just an amazing gift because that really helped to start my research on, on my grandfather. Uh Other than that, um that's basically where, where the research started. And, you know, I hope to learn more and I'm sure we learn

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more about his history. So, the amazing thing about him was that he had done so much. He is a geologist and he was, oh, I had a piano company and uh he, you know, he was also very involved in the church 8 a.m. E church and

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spoke around the country. Um Other than that, that's research. Uh So my research is really in a way just beginning and uh in some ways it's intersecting with the, the work that I do. So, um and I'll, I'll, I'll leave that in in a second. But

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I think what was most surprising and just cool to see and I think you'll see the picture up here is my great grandfather's way of documenting. So he had this, you know, awesome motorbike that was outfitted to be a photographer, the mobile photography studio. And if

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you go to the red book, there are several pictures of him. But one of them with this bike, the, the um the um caption will say it's almost like his egg for, you know, anytime call me, I could meet you anywhere between Harris County Houston and

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Galveston. And so that, that was just cool because the ingenuity of just, you know, having a studio in that way, even though he did have a brick and mortar business was really cool. And my father had a very entrepreneurial spirit. And so this photo I just

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hold close as it reminds me that that has been passed down. I dabbled a little bit in that too, but I think it's just it, to me, I love that. Um that photo represents so much about kind of who he was. My father was growing up

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as very much a he was a barbecue man. He had his own business. He um was um like we were at the gas station selling people barbecue pla like it was, it was just that kind of like, you know, grit, right? And so, um that's what

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that photo represents and I think it stands out the most, but the red book also confirms some things that I actually forgot about that. Um My great grandfather moved from Arkansas and I think he settled in Independent Heights here in Houston and also um had land

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so he had land in Fifth Ward, but also back in Arkansas. And I think um as I go on my journey, just trying to connect all the dots of the things that I know about him now is where I'll start my research. And at some point,

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I'm even thinking, I need to get to Arkansas to even understand kind of what records I can find there. So I am really on this journey and I'm, you know, lately I've been just asking people, how did you get started with your research when it feels

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so silo, but every single person has said, just start somewhere and just start with one piece that, you know, and keep, keep going. And so that's, um that's kind of what I'm, I'm picking in now. And I'm really excited when I do talk to people who

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have been doing their research in including Mr um Kings and Mr Clayton. Um You know, it's been like a, a, you know, 20 year journey and that feels daunting at times, but I can see why. And so I guess I'll give myself a leg up and

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say it's been a couple of years since I've been kind of holding this story close. And that's the first part of the research. And so I'm, I'm excited to be on that journey in the early stages. So thank you so much for those answers. Um Our

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next question is what impact do you consider your ancestors to have had on the development of Houston? OK. My granddaddy was very influential in Houston. Uh of course, as an educator is, it is immeasurable. He taught in hasd 40 years from colored high school, which was

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later named Booker T Washington and at Jack Yates Industrial Mechanical architectural and he was one of those teachers that this is before today's time when you can't touch a child, he'd throw a hammer at, at, you get them, get messing around in his class. He, he

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straightened me out quick. Uh, but, uh, he was, uh, also a 32nd degree Mason cap aside, fraternity, uh, went to, went to Texas Southern, got a law degree. He was a realtor. Um, so his influence covered the gamut of things to uh make this community better.

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And I'll say this that uh the people that he ran with um they use separate but equal to weave their accomplishments into the fabric. That is Houston today, we are one of the most diversified cities in America. And unlike, and there's nothing wrong with this and

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I'm like the, the framers of Black Wall Street and Oklahoma, which I'm very proud of what they accomplished. These people, Eo Smith and Lock in uh the like they work to build within the structure of Houston things for people of color. And uh because of that

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usually is what it is today. And uh because of that, they, I I endured racism here in Houston but the uh severity of it is different than it is in the Deep South. Uh We had buses that we were supposed to ride on the back end.

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But no, we were the only ones on the bus. So you got where you wanna rest. Um The only time I ever saw a sign that said black, white and colored was I was in North Texas. Didn't see that in Houston. Of course, we, we didn't

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go downtown to the, to Walgreens to sit at the counter and have lunch because we had our own restaurants. We had the park theater a dollar in the air where we could go and watch movies. So we didn't go downtown to the, to the Majestic. And

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uh so what I'm trying to say is they took a different tech to around the Jim Crow era and accomplish things for people of color here in Houston. And I think they did it successfully. Thank you. Thanks. Uh I think maybe the, well, as I said,

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I found out recently that HL MS had quite a bit of influence and work through the AM E church. So that was not only here in Houston, Wesley AM E Church, which was in dollar and uh around, around the country. But I think there's also the

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fact that he was an oil man, had his own, started his own oil company, retrieve oil company and he found they found oil as a geologist in Texas, New Mexico and uh Louisiana. So from that alone, I think that that's also of, of an influence that

00:27:09.670 - 00:27:30.709

that still might be fe felt your use even though you know, oil is changing. And uh and as I said, there's another impact that he had just through the fact that it, I don't know if you know it in a pe still exists today, there are

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branches around the country. So that alone is part of a, a huge influence just in Houston and around the country. Um When I think about my ancestor Charles G here, his impact, I think about, um you know, just how remarkable this artifact really is. This book

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of telling, you know, the last 50 years of progress since slavery was ended. And that, you know, you have photos of all of this progress to document it. Um It's just such a remarkable book. I'm actually working my way reading every single page. But if, if

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you and, and thanks to Rice uh for digitizing, if you go and, and look at um the red book online and just read the first couple of pages of um Eo Smith commentary and the publisher commentary of why the book was uh brought together. It was,

00:28:31.329 - 00:28:50.579

it was to demonstrate this progress, this quite other narratives. And um just to show that it wasn't exceptionalism and just one person or two people thriving, but just an entire community here. So that to me is extremely inspirational and the fact that my great grandfather documented

00:28:50.589 - 00:29:09.859

that as a commercial photographer just makes me really proud. Um And I do think about, you know, Houston has to me a longer way to go in documenting its history and telling its story of Black contribution. Um There are a lot of people working towards that,

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but we got a long way to go. We have done a lot here. And um and so I'm really excited that I get to explore this work personally. But um even through my work, I work in philanthropy and my work is kind of at the intersection

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of education, but also um more community and civic projects. And for me, it's kind of a learning even in my, my professional work where, um you know, I don't know if folks have recently heard about uh an effort that um really and I'll, I'll, I'll be

00:29:40.900 - 00:29:56.900

bringing this and saying in Memorial Park, there's a story of Camp Logan and um there was a recent victory around Camp Logan and, and the black soldiers who were granted clemency. So I encourage everybody to read about that. But that all happened that all transpired in

00:29:56.910 - 00:30:12.640

1917. So two years after the red book and it makes me think about like the chronicling of Black life and driving and then you have events like that happening, like just, you know, just those stories juxtapose are really um interesting. But if it weren't for the

00:30:12.650 - 00:30:27.829

writing book, you kind of wouldn't know all of this thriving happening. And I think about how much more that needs to be done. So I think, I think this is a special gift that Houston has and it has been acknowledged by, you know, historians and researchers

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and um I, I am increasingly feeling committed to, you know, speaking about that and ensuring that that happens in other spaces in my city um for years to come. So it makes you very proud that he contributed to that. And that way I am not a

00:30:41.540 - 00:30:53.500

photographer, so I won't be going to the same thing that he did, you know, he did. But I, in my own way, I feel like I can find that space to um to say that we need to see more of it. And I think about what

00:30:53.510 - 00:31:09.359

the future needs to be in terms of what we're doing now. So um all of those, those thoughts are, are, are taking up space for me, for sure. Thank you so much for those answers. So, on a slightly more personal note, what impact do you feel

00:31:09.369 - 00:31:34.719

like your ancestors had on your life? Well, of course, I already mentioned that my grandfather, the ancestor we were speaking of um made education a priority in our life. He was a very proud man. And one of the things that I found in my research backing

00:31:34.729 - 00:32:01.530

up, I found that his grandfather was a Guinea African prince who was smuggled into Galveston in 1836 on a ship called the kiosk. So it was in his blood to be superior or of a leader, I should say. So when he passed that down to his

00:32:02.199 - 00:32:37.780

Children with um the requirement that they excel his Children. One was a dentist. One was a liar. One was an executive in Detroit in 1964. Um, one was a college professor. One was a, a high school teacher. So they, they achieve these things during Jim Crow.

00:32:37.930 - 00:33:14.800

We're talking, they were born in the twenties. Then comes my generation, I'm retired Exxon Mobil executive. I retired 20 years ago in 55. My brothers, sisters, cousins, we continue the legacy that my grandfather put down on us. You must get educated, doctors, lawyers, um college professors.

00:33:14.810 - 00:33:43.500

One of my cousins is Dean of Science at Howard University. So I'm just saying that to say my grandfather's impact continues not just to his Children but to their Children. And um I'm trying to get my Children to do the same there. I got one, ran

00:33:44.229 - 00:34:14.570

one executive uh with the hospital district and uh one who's uh in the delivery business but, and then a police officer, I adopted some. But um in my family, on this generation, my generation level, the majority of us have college degrees because of my grandfather. It

00:34:14.580 - 00:34:36.469

kind of sounds like a that uh my grandfather went to Howard study geology and my father went to the, to Howard to study civil engineering. One of HLS White friends told him HL why are you sending him to college to study civil engineering? When he comes

00:34:36.479 - 00:34:56.500

back here? He won't get a job. And uh he did interview for a job in Galveston. I don't know where he didn't get that. He went on to, to work at, uh, TSU, uh, and teaching the school of technology and won quite a few golf trophies

00:34:56.510 - 00:35:20.159

for the school to help, to help, to do that. But, uh, yeah, the, in the, uh, without a question, uh, without your influence of your, your family, your grandparents, you know, it, it just go, it just goes down, you know, in generations. So, uh it was

00:35:20.169 - 00:35:36.929

a huge influence on all of us. And by the way, I have one sister, it's just the two of us and one sister. She's in Chicago, Illinois. If some of you remember there was a, an exhibit here at the moment at the Museum of Fine Arts

00:35:37.780 - 00:36:04.310

uh called Soul of a Nation. She was one of the artists, she's an artist, my mother taught art as well. So, um that's the answers that question um impact on my life. Uh I, I would say, I guess first and foremost, as I mentioned earlier, just

00:36:05.500 - 00:36:21.729

the spirit of my ancestor I think has passed through to, through my father and I'm really grateful for that. Um And I think it's passed on to me. Um I think about again, so much of this has me think about kind of what were the conversations

00:36:21.739 - 00:36:37.610

that happened? What was instilled in, you know, my father, that my great grandfather instilled in, in, in all of that. And so in particular, the entrepreneurial spirit and the sense of ownership is what stands out. Um That's something that my father talked about a lot, um

00:36:37.620 - 00:36:51.989

ownership of land. Um, you know, being in business for yourself to a certain degree. Um If you can, I know that's not everybody's path but those were things that you talked about. I like to think education was a part of that too. But, you know, it's

00:36:52.000 - 00:37:07.482

interesting. I mean, my, my father actually was born in 1923. So that was pretty, you know, great depression time. And um he had an 11th grade education but was very much a self taught man, a very studious man and actually has his own legacy kind of

00:37:07.492 - 00:37:24.193

in, uh you know, newspapers and files about being a minister in this city. Um, and really a kind of a self-made theologian. Um But I think that more importantly, so education is big and for me that definitely landed here, I'm proud to be an alum of

00:37:24.202 - 00:37:38.496

Rice University through the MB A program. You know, those, those things were instilled in me. But I think the sense of ownership is what I take most from the impact. Um And it's something I'm, I'm looking at today in terms of how can I manifest that

00:37:38.506 - 00:37:54.290

and things I'm doing in my life. So, um, I mean, there, there are probably a lot of ways to think about the impact that just being connected to my city's history in this way. Um you know, does for me. And so I'm, again, I'm on that

00:37:54.300 - 00:38:09.709

journey, but I will say just knowing little pieces of it, I, I hold very close and I, I think it, it, it takes me back to kind of how important was it back then to do the things that they did and it's still important now even

00:38:09.719 - 00:38:31.229

more so as we think about the economics and just kind of changing political environment in our country. So um that impact is alive and well. And um yeah, thank you again. Um Our next question is actually one that Mister has already answered. It is um when

00:38:31.239 - 00:38:47.949

did you learn about the red book? And what was your initial reaction to looking at it? And I guess it just uh going to the uh it was, I mean, it was in a steamer trunk and I really didn't go into it very deeply until I

00:38:47.959 - 00:39:07.330

mean, I read my granddaddy's page and I didn't go through all the rest of it until I started doing this, this, this book here. Um And I think one of the things that I found most fascinated caught my attention was a picture of my granddaddy in

00:39:07.340 - 00:39:37.689

a World War one. Beautiful. I'm a veteran, nine year veteran and uh proud of America and fought for it. Ben my room. But when I saw my granddad in that World War One, I, I was really uh taken aback and uh So, uh II, I just

00:39:37.699 - 00:39:57.979

found the red. Then I went back and started reading it on all the other book in the red book and what they had accomplished. And I found uh some photos of course, that I had her dad take, had taken and uh I uh semi profession, photographer,

00:39:58.479 - 00:40:22.820

uh professional photographer, but uh partially retired and I can appreciate what uh what he accomplished back in those days. And I thank you for what he did because of the book is a historical document that needs to be preserved. It is a treasure of Houston is

00:40:22.830 - 00:40:48.590

what it is. I only learned about the red book uh when I moved back here in the early eighties from Manhattan and uh someone I uh mentioned, but Christian Fraser, he was the one that told me about, about the book and your dad, your grandfather's in

00:40:48.699 - 00:41:03.929

it. So that's, that's how I learn about it. Mhm. Um As I said, I, I learned about it from my father at that time when he took me to an exhibit. But, you know, life happens and uh as a six year old, that's just not the

00:41:03.939 - 00:41:26.469

first thing top of mind. Um Nor is it as a 789, 1011 go on. Um And it wasn't until uh I don't remember the exact year, but I graduated college, um lived overseas a little bit, came back and was just getting reacquainted with my city and

00:41:26.479 - 00:41:43.919

I went to some community talk at the Buffalo Soldiers Museum. And um, a woman was talking about the red book. Her name is Al Jitta Scott Davis. If anybody in here knows that she is a walking, she's a creo like just a walking wealth of information

00:41:43.929 - 00:41:59.169

and an attorney and just has so much he in history. Um, and she was talking about the red book and she had a few original copies and some printed and she was passing them around the room. And to be really honest because my head was, I

00:41:59.179 - 00:42:11.520

was in corporate America at the time and just, I don't know, I wasn't really um tapped into all of these artifacts and just relics and things like that. And so I kind of forgot about the red book if I'm really honest. And as she passed it

00:42:11.530 - 00:42:26.250

around, this is the book that my dad talked about and mind you. I don't know if I mentioned this. My dad passed when I was 14. So I kind of had a period where, you know, we just weren't talking about these things anymore. And so, um

00:42:26.260 - 00:42:40.489

anyway, as I looked at the, the print of that book and as she was talking, I just happened to look in the back because it has a listing of all the businesses, great grandfather. Like in that moment, I was, oh my gosh, I forgot that he

00:42:40.500 - 00:42:56.830

was a part of this history. So again, I think that was about 2008 ish. And um that's when I rediscovered the red book. Um and, and even again, just didn't really go into it in depth, but just started to really say, you know what this is

00:42:56.840 - 00:43:09.774

something I need to come back to. So 2008 to the last couple of years, you know, it's taken that long, but it's never too late. And so that's kind of been my journey of rediscovering the red book um in, in that way, but I'm, I'm grateful

00:43:09.784 - 00:43:26.290

that she mentioned this Al Al Danita Scott Davis um at that community meeting and I feel like more of that needs to happen. Right. So. Right. Mhm OK. Thank you so much. Um So our final question before we move into some audience Q and A is

00:43:26.300 - 00:43:47.209

something we've also touched on already. But um what do you all believe is the importance or the legacy of the r the legacy of it? I mentioned a moment ago. It is, it's a, it's a historical treasure. We live in a time where there are people

00:43:47.219 - 00:44:05.360

who are trying to bury our history as people of color. You got people who are, don't, they don't want to teach it in school. They, they didn't even teach it when I was in school. I mean, it didn't really get taught uh about slavery and what

00:44:05.370 - 00:44:25.070

have you and then even the come forward to the 19 hundreds when my grandfather, my ancestor who's in the red book was doing what he was doing, that those accomplishments were not something that's talked about in Texas history or any other history book for that matter.

00:44:26.199 - 00:44:49.419

So, if you wanna learn about it, you gotta dig and find it. You don't have to dig much further than this book to see what they were accomplishing back then when they weren't supposed to do and achieve and get what they were doing, achieving and get

00:44:49.429 - 00:45:17.139

everything that wasn't meant for them to do, but they rose above whatever was holding them down to be successful. And this book has it all in one little place. You should get a copy and read it. Um What is the importance of the Red Bull is

00:45:17.290 - 00:45:43.110

using? And the legacy? Hi there. I think he answered it. And uh you know, as I said before I go on any further, I wanna thank Alison in Georgia for inviting me. I mean, I'm lucky there are a lot of descendants in the Red Book. And

00:45:43.120 - 00:46:00.510

uh I, you know, as I said, it took a lot of work to dig people out. So, you know, as, as I said, I'm looking to be here, but uh it's uh this is without a doubt the history that we need to pass on because as

00:46:00.520 - 00:46:26.239

Mr King said, a lot of this history wasn't taught and then I always attempts to bury it. So, yes, it's, it's, it's crucial um for me I think of legacy in this book in three ways. The first is, is simply unbelievable progress. Um considering, you know,

00:46:26.250 - 00:46:42.260

400 years of chattel slavery and yet black people were thriving just 50 years after slavery in a way that if you read the red book, it will start to tell you in aspect, black population was doing better than um other race at the time because they

00:46:42.270 - 00:46:59.229

were so determined to build their institutions and um and just do a lot of things that's actually written in the red book, right? As a source of inspiration. So that's one thing. Um I, I very much agree with Mr King that it is a huge source

00:46:59.239 - 00:47:17.199

of learning. I actually find myself, I think I mentioned kind of the Camp Logan story of 1917 because what it's helping me to do is contextualize things I was not taught in school as well about my city's Black history and contribution. Where did Emancipation Park fit

00:47:17.209 - 00:47:33.030

into that work? Right? And, and those who purchased that park for the betterment of celebration of Juneteenth. But, but also just as a, a place a haven for black people. So it's just connecting all these dots. Um And so for me, the red book represents rich

00:47:33.040 - 00:47:46.989

learning um that I'm just kind of doing one step at a time. And I think the final thing is that I've understood it to be a documentation of both middle and and and upper class, black. Um but I kind of focus in on the middle class

00:47:47.000 - 00:48:04.510

because I feel like I, you know, you know, there's so many right in the middle class and that's a group that's often forgotten about at times when you talk about their ancestors contribution. And I really think about kind of having to draw inspiration from what your

00:48:04.520 - 00:48:19.699

ancestors have done because I know we all, all of us have ancestors that have contributed um you know, to, to black life. And I'm speaking to the black population in particular, and I just think about, we all have stories and um and so to me, that's

00:48:19.709 - 00:48:34.199

the legacy is I'm covering those stories and telling them, even if you're, if you don't think your ancestor did something, you know, as remarkable as the next I say, you know, I beg to differ because if it were not for what your ancestor did, um you

00:48:34.209 - 00:48:47.070

know, other people wouldn't have been able to thrive. So I, that's the legacy to me. And the Red book is just the many stories and documentation of all of the people involved in that. And that um you know, we all probably have a piece of that

00:48:47.080 - 00:49:06.739

that if we uncover it, maybe it's not directly attached to the Red book, but it is attached to um thriving in our country in some way. So well, thank you all for answering those questions and for your responses. Um Now we'd like to move in and

00:49:06.750 - 00:49:28.830

give the audience a chance to ask any questions that they might have. Jasmine again. Hi, everybody. Um So first I just wanna say thank you guys so much for, for coming to China. I learned a lot of wisdom from you all. So this question is kind

00:49:28.840 - 00:49:47.469

of for you mister catching, I think you kind of spoke about it as well. Um You spoke on this ideology of separate but equal being a main proponent of Black Houston and the rise of it during the era of the red book, which now that concept

00:49:47.479 - 00:50:04.304

of separate but equal is sometimes a controversial conversation with on our community. Do you agree that having that set by equal mindset of creating our own industry, our own community outside of other cultures and other demographics is a way for our community to rise up again

00:50:04.425 - 00:50:22.745

or now in 2024. Do you agree that or do you think that this kind of melting pot um is, is the way to, to bring the change to Ple Thank you. OK. Thank you so much. What's your name again? Jack Jasmine, thank you, Jasmine. Uh Separate

00:50:24.899 - 00:50:54.020

had its time that time has passed. We need to move forward. This is America. This is a country where you're supposed to be able to rise up, pull up others and achieve there's a problem and everybody sees it. We're splendor because we live in the past.

00:50:54.919 - 00:51:28.780

We need to look to the future, our future is bright but we can't drag this anchor. Mm Separate superiority. We're all the same. We're all human beings. We're actually one race, the human race. And until you figure that out, you're gonna have problems. Mankind has been

00:51:28.790 - 00:51:56.689

fighting with mankind since cro magnum man killed uh Neanderthal, non Neanderthal man killed Chrom. And so we, we had this problem where if you don't look like me act like me or walk like me talk like me, then something wrong with you. No, there's something wrong

00:51:56.699 - 00:52:22.300

with the person who thinks like that. And you need to, the only way to rise above that is with education. You gotta educate yourself and then you gotta understand what needs to happen for us to move together. As one people, we live on one tiny planet

00:52:23.389 - 00:52:43.169

in a system that has so many stars. It would be stupid to believe that we're here alone. I, I love Star Trek. I believe that they are out there. I think that they're here but they don't come out and tell us that they're here. You know

00:52:43.179 - 00:53:00.810

why? Because we can't get along without each other. How are we gonna get along with them? We can't happen, you know, so to answer your question, no separate but equal has had its day and it was a good time. I mean, I went to the D

00:53:01.270 - 00:53:18.610

and art theater many times at city, but we had our own clubs and we still do. And, and we, I mean, purview A and M was the answer to no, you can't go to Texas A and M. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna give

00:53:18.620 - 00:53:46.879

you a school of your own. All the H BC us were born out of that separate but equal ideology. The times passed, we need to become one country, one people. And for the world, one race, human race, I'm glad I'm old. I don't have to try

00:53:46.889 - 00:54:14.139

to convince y'all. But what you gotta do, I topped my cheek but I can't talk to the world and they're not gonna listen anyway because you got the people out there that they got their mind made up even though they know it's wrong. And so it's

00:54:14.149 - 00:54:44.600

hard to change. I always tell my friends it's, it's like it's like talking to your wife and she already made up her mind. She a gonna name. So a great at all. So that was the question. I hope I answered it. I have two questions. One

00:54:44.610 - 00:55:03.239

for you. This, this would um excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what n is I'm gonna want uh explanation of that. So that's one question. And the second question was for hashing. Um you talked about um education and what? And, and he had been uh

00:55:03.250 - 00:55:19.169

a teacher and such. So that yesterday uh one of our talks had to do with College of Ward Park Cemetery. It's called that because there was a college there. Uh, Houston Baptist College anyway. But I'm curious if, if he, uh, was a, at all affiliated with,

00:55:19.179 - 00:55:43.350

with that college that was, uh, on San Philly Bay Street because it was called at that time and he mentioned something about that. So, um, those are questions there. OK. Well, uh, your question was N A pe S, oh, that's National Alliance of Postal. It's now

00:55:43.360 - 00:56:03.159

called Postal and Federal Employees. They form the organization as a result of, you know, discrimination within the Postal Services back back on. And they were, of course, working on the railroads too. So that's, that's what they, there's, there's separate district if you just look it up

00:56:03.169 - 00:56:29.459

online. Ok. Um, I don't know about the other sport. I have this picture in my book which I know you can't see, but this is, uh, standing on the steps of the colored high school. San Felipe. It says San Felipe and Frederick Street. That's the fourth

00:56:29.469 - 00:56:53.270

war. And then of course, I have a picture of the building itself which no longer stands and then the window is my granddad according to him. And he was one of the architects that built this building in the time of separate but equal. And, um, he

00:56:53.280 - 00:57:24.590

did other churches and whatnot architects here in Houston, but I'm not familiar with the other booker T Washington, Jack Yates were schools where the con attended during the time. I'm a w it actually uh breathing. Thank you. Uh I, we, I, I don't know if you

00:57:24.679 - 00:57:44.709

can hear my husband in the background in Amen Porn. It's because I often hear stories about the Ketchen family and my father-in-law uh different and it is important that you captured that and, and what you don't know is I'm gonna come and talk with you because

00:57:44.719 - 00:58:00.139

you have some history about my grandfather that I didn't have for very many reasons. And I think it's so important to share all of this because one of the things I noticed about the red book was that it showed communities of affluence, kind of pretty much

00:58:00.149 - 00:58:17.510

like when you go to Gregory. And so hopefully, it's called the imposter syndrome that our Children are dealing with. And how we look at ourselves is sometimes a downtrodden community. If you look at those pictures and you read those stories, you go to the Gregory library,

00:58:17.520 - 00:58:35.280

you have to ask what and you have to want to know that. And one point of saying Carolyn White is a, a staff member here at White and her family is from that area. If you ever wanna tap into her about more about it before you

00:58:35.290 - 00:58:57.090

go to the next person, Miss Woods had something she wanted to add about the schools. Yes. Oh, well, if I could. Well, I was gonna ask you if I mentioned a, a thought that my cousin, oh, sorry, a book that my cousin wrote that autobiography, but

00:58:57.100 - 00:59:22.979

it gives you quite a bit of insight to her in university. And if for anyone interested in it, I can give you the name of it is uh heart and Emma can kill Patrick. And uh the book is called My Journey. And as an African American

00:59:22.989 - 00:59:52.300

woman, childhood and segregated bones, segregated Texas, South, South Texas. And so the book gives you quite a bit of insight into per view and in university and uh you might might find that interesting. Do I have the name again? Of the Awesome Yes, it's my journey.

00:59:53.639 - 01:00:23.169

Uh In childhood. He is an African American woman in segregated Southeast Texas in the of heart. Tens and a Kilpatrick. Now, another thing about our family is that the other side kill Patrick's Kilpatrick's curs, you know, that's where a lot of the unions work, did a

01:00:23.179 - 01:00:45.260

lot of, a lot of family gatherings with that, that side of the family. And so pray where it is is where our family was rich. I did with Atlantis. Um Hello, everyone. Oh My name is Victoria. I'm actually a first year phd student here at Rice.

01:00:45.280 - 01:01:04.000

Um So thank you all for coming and sharing this information. Also 1/4 generation Houstonian. Shout out. Um My question was actually on the radio the other day, perhaps N pr they were saying history has a legacy of not preserving things of tearing down old buildings to

01:01:04.010 - 01:01:20.320

build new buildings, of throwing things away figuratively and in reality. And so I'm wondering my question to you all as a panel, how do you think the Red Book and the preservation of the Red Book can really work to counter that narrative that folks have about

01:01:20.330 - 01:01:46.370

Houston? That's a great question. Um But you pretty much spoke to the two. Yeah. And because he's in so to for tar down its history and um um like, I think like there's one, there's one aspect that I'm curious about with regard to churches. So if

01:01:46.379 - 01:02:02.000

you go in the red book, there's just the lifting of so many churches. And in fact, the church that I grew up in, in Third Ward, it's called Forth Missionary Baptist Church. It was in the Red book as well and it's, um, you know, it's, it's

01:02:02.010 - 01:02:19.340

still an active church, smaller membership, but it has a historical marker. Um, but there are other churches like that that are not active and may not have a historical marker. And you just, um, there was something about the tapestry of churches in this city that, that's

01:02:19.350 - 01:02:34.760

another story that needs to be told and why you see so many on different corners and, and before they get God forbid torn down, how do we, how do we weave that into the rich story of why they even existed in the first place? Right. So

01:02:34.770 - 01:02:53.790

that's just one thread. Um, but I think it's such a great question of one do people even know about this book? And the fact that like as all this development happens, have you even gone to research all of the stories related to the place that you're

01:02:53.800 - 01:03:08.919

proposing to tear down or even reconstruct but not preserve the history? And I think that needs to be a message that is shared in every single room. Um And, and the fact that we have again, an artifact to do that with is so powerful. So, uh

01:03:08.929 - 01:03:22.379

you know, I would hope that everyone in this room would go tell five people about the red book because I know so many people don't know about it, you know, to this day, and it's not just the red book go online and Google these places, but

01:03:22.389 - 01:03:38.270

the point is do the research about these historical places before you um decide to tear them down, there's been development happening in the city related to some of these historical markers. Um You know, one of which is a like Wesley Chapel, right? And there's a, there

01:03:38.280 - 01:03:53.800

are several proposals, this is another church and third for several proposals to redevelop that, but to preserve the integrity of it. Um And to do that responsibly, right? And so there, there are people involved in that who were really trying to, to make that happen, but

01:03:53.810 - 01:04:07.219

it does take involvement. And so how do we do that for so many of our structures? It's almost like adoptive structure, you know, from the red book and in the city and learn about it and figure out how you could be a voice around it. Um

01:04:07.300 - 01:04:24.729

You know, last quick quick mention around that is just as an example, what happened with the red bricks and pregs camp and when they were improperly, you know, stripped and removed. But there is a story and I'm, I'm her name is Sharonda. I forget her last

01:04:24.739 - 01:04:40.959

name. But Sharonda Johnson who um was, was told, have you ever seen anybody get these bricks? Go call, it's almost like call 911 call, you know, run and tell someone so that um it can be stopped. And she did, she literally told the story. I had

01:04:40.969 - 01:04:54.750

a recent meeting with her just to understand. And she said one day I looked out and I saw that they, that the city was there taking up these bricks, the bricks that, you know, formally, you know, freed slave. I hate saying that word. I like to

01:04:54.760 - 01:05:09.745

say freed black people because you're no longer a slave, right? Um And so, but, but they laid those bricks, right? Um with all of the inspiration of the, the places in Africa that they came from and to just remove that like all of that history. And

01:05:09.754 - 01:05:23.774

so she called the alarm on that started a coalition did, did all the right things to, to make them correct that wrong and that's what we need to do. So imagine having that type of person for so many of the, the relics in um the red

01:05:23.784 - 01:05:48.320

book. I think we could really do a better job of determining our history but it does take learning and effort. I only have that done. There are only a few oh, the uh structures from this period remaining uh col high school got knocked out. Um downtown.

01:05:48.330 - 01:06:12.270

There's an ar um church. They sold all of the property around. If you drive by you, if you blink, you won't see it because it's, it's stuck in beside in between skyscrapers but it's there. Uh The Elder Auto Bottle Room has been uh restore Eva Station

01:06:12.280 - 01:06:32.760

Park. Go back and take a look at the, the people who bought the property for Masturbation Park. It's a great story. I won't try to uh decided to because I'll mess it up the homes and forth. What I can remember when I was working at the

01:06:32.770 - 01:06:57.570

Exxon building downtown. Every now and then. War Rose holds her catch on fire. Fire department wouldn't put it out. They just keep it from going to the next house and let it burn to the ground. So the red book is the historical marker that you can

01:06:57.580 - 01:07:22.340

go back to. And then of course, in the red book, they highlight many of the upper middle class and of, of the black or colored community of the time. But um we weren't making the money then or now that our counterparts make uh of different races,

01:07:23.060 - 01:07:47.629

but they were able to build very nice homes and very nice churches and very nice structures all around the city. And, uh there are very good examples of these in this book taken by her and sister. You should see it. Hi there. Uh My name is

01:07:47.639 - 01:08:00.070

Jerry Jones. I'm a librarian here at, uh, uh Rice University. And so, uh I told myself that I wasn't gonna be the more of a comment than a question guide. But I have to, I have to stop here and just uh mention the importance of, of

01:08:00.080 - 01:08:17.709

research, right? Um And finding information. So, you know, we're talking here about, um, you know, researching and making sure that the younger generation knows that this information is available. But there's a piece that we have to remember in this, that we have to continue to digitize

01:08:17.720 - 01:08:37.609

these materials and make them available, but that's not gonna fulfill the whole journey, right? Because you say Google, but Google is um, a flawed, um, piece of equipment. You know, it's, uh, it's biased and, you know, we have to continue to teach Children how to think

01:08:37.620 - 01:08:52.370

critically and how to search for information. Um, because if these things are indexed properly, they're not gonna be picked up by Google. And so we have to just keep that in mind as we're moving through this. Um, and I'll stop there before I get on to

01:08:52.379 - 01:09:10.345

a higher soapbox. But I just wanna say thank you uh for this uh presentation. And um you know, as uh a cultural heritage worker, uh one of the things, you know, a, a drum that I continuously beat for many years has been um black people can

01:09:10.354 - 01:09:27.339

do and have done more than be oppressed and entertain people. And if you look at digital collections, that is what they're centered around is their oppression and then entertaining people, you know, so we're looking at, at jazz and rap and these universities are saying yes, let's,

01:09:27.350 - 01:09:52.529

let's OK. That's entertaining people. And then a lot of what we're talking about is oppression. But the reason that I appreciate this talk is that it's been centered around doing more than those things in Excel. So thank you for doing this. OK. That's about the end

01:09:52.540 - 01:09:59.350

of our time today, I think. Um So I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming to our talk and thank you so much to our wonderful Panelist.