00:00:01.500 - 00:00:24.739

This is Polly Moore. Today is uh November 25 1969. This is oral history interview number 66. Uh Dean Topazio, Dean of Humanities and member of the um faculty advisory uh committee on presidential selection. We're on tape 28 side two. Uh Now I'm set it down to

00:00:24.750 - 00:00:47.009

zero. The time is two in the afternoon. OK, Dean Dezio, can I ask you uh just for your uh name and business address? Let's see how this Virgil W Topazio at 236 Razor Hall, Rice University. All right, De de Prezzo, I think we're ready to start

00:00:47.020 - 00:01:03.900

now. Uh I was giving you a little bit of an overview of what we're looking for in these conversations and to get some background on your outlook and predispositions. Could you tell me uh what it meant to you when Kenneth pitcher resigned? Uh What ramifications did

00:01:03.909 - 00:01:16.500

you see the r uh as a result of that? Well, my first feeling was that it was going, it was going to be a bad blow for rice because we had lost a great scholar and a great administrator. As a matter of fact, I had become

00:01:16.510 - 00:01:29.919

Dean simply because I admired him so much as both a scholar and administrator. And I wanted to help build up the humanities. And this also because I felt that he, in spite of the fact that he was a chemist, he was a great friend of the

00:01:29.930 - 00:01:46.199

humanities. And I, and I felt that possibly we may, may have lost a great opportunity to build up the humanities and social sciences for Ed Rice, which he was able to do because of his own personal prestige. And so I had some qualms about the future

00:01:46.669 - 00:02:02.110

of Rice when you uh gave thought to the kind of President uh Rice would need in the future. Do you have someone like Pitzer in mind? Uh Yes, because I think the tradition here has been right along to have a great scholar for one thing. Uh

00:02:02.120 - 00:02:19.339

I think the trustees have always felt this, we've had about three presidents before Pitzer and everyone was a great scholar, an eminent scholar, Pitzer, not only upheld that tradition, probably even exceeded it. He was really an internationally known scholar. And so I felt that uh we

00:02:19.350 - 00:02:36.630

should have a great scholar foremost. This is the primary consideration in my own mind, not necessarily in the humanities, but preferably in the humanities, simply to balance out the uh the picture, but at least to have someone who would be favorably disposed to the humanities as

00:02:36.639 - 00:02:50.949

indeed Pitzer had proved himself to be. I think in the seven years. I think he was here. Seven years. I'm not sure. Six or seven, he probably had done more to build this place into a first grade university. And then, well, probably all the years had

00:02:50.960 - 00:03:06.250

gone before. Did he arrive, uh with, uh, a strong conviction about humanities or was this something of an educational process that took place after he came here? I really am not sure, but I should imagine that it was an educational process after he came here, after

00:03:06.259 - 00:03:24.399

all, his whole training had been in the sciences and I forget what his position was that uh uh Stanford or in Berkeley? I don't know he places. But anyway, he had been in, in the sciences, right? I mean, he had had no administrative position that encompassed

00:03:24.410 - 00:03:40.699

both humanities and sciences. So he had been primarily in the sciences, but I think he was a big enough man himself. And also, of course, don't forget his family tradition of in the educational field. And so he had been brought up with this fine academic tradition.

00:03:40.710 - 00:03:54.619

And so he encompassed all the fields in his broad outlook, but he was a great man. There's no, no question about it. It was a great loss for ice. Do. Um Were you under the impression that he grew a great deal as, as president while he

00:03:54.630 - 00:04:09.970

was here? Well, I think by the time I got here, of course, I got here. And let's see, he was here only three years. So I had come well beyond the midpoint of his career. And he had certainly reached in a sense, the full flowering of

00:04:09.979 - 00:04:29.359

his, of his great potential, both as, as administrator and scholar. He was unquestionably in my mind, a terrific administrator. And this is uh when you consider this an international scholar, this, this is really quite a rare combination in one man, a great administrator who, whom everyone

00:04:29.369 - 00:04:50.959

admired on campus. It's hard for me to, to imagine anyone who could seriously object to pitzer as, as an administrator. And of course, no one could even question his uh qualifications as scholars pre eminent in this field. So he had, he had that really enviable position

00:04:50.970 - 00:05:08.760

of being admired by all of the faculty. Wonderful thing for any ad in the screener about that. Do you think uh you mentioned that you were uh uh somewhat dismayed at the thought of his loss? Uh Is this because you wondered whether such a combination could

00:05:08.769 - 00:05:29.670

be found again? Yes, they're rare and especially in these trying times when uh anyone who takes a presidency has to be a candidate for booby hatch in the first place. But, and to find a really qualified man like that in these times especially would be a

00:05:29.679 - 00:05:44.570

very difficult task. I think the last time I looked in the uh uh the journal that comes out higher education, there was something like 300 universities and colleges that were looking for presidents. Well, you can imagine now, in spite of the fact that Rice is a

00:05:45.559 - 00:05:59.700

certainly one of the top schools and would be, uh for anyone who's looking for a presidency, this would be an ideal place to go small enough so that you don't become overwhelmed by the, the institutional problems and yet big enough so that you can accomplish great

00:05:59.709 - 00:06:16.579

things in the educational field. This would be an ideal place for anyone who wants to be president. But nonetheless, the uh the ideal men for these jobs are few and, and scarce. There's no doubt about it. Did uh how did you come to uh get on

00:06:16.589 - 00:06:33.440

the faculty advisory committee? I was selected by the faculty which incidentally, I considered it quite an honor because I was a dean and uh uh you know, I was representing the faculty and they had selected an administrator. I thought this was a signal on her frankly.

00:06:35.250 - 00:06:51.489

So, uh are you're also on the faculty council? Are you now, is there any reason why the faculty council was not used for this uh faculty selection? You know, that that was never brought up oddly enough. Now, it is, you know, now, yes, now it's the

00:06:51.500 - 00:07:11.220

same now. Uh the last faculty meeting I believe, I think I'm sure it was the last it was voted uh to have the faculty council members, the selected the elected faculty members but constitute the uh the presidential selection committee. So we have changed to that, but

00:07:11.230 - 00:07:26.910

I don't think it had ever been proposed before. Do you recall how you got the news that uh the uh did, did the board initiate this request for our faculty advisory committee or, or how did you get the news for this? I'm not really certain, but

00:07:26.920 - 00:07:44.940

I think that the board requested a faculty committee and then I think it was a faculty committee that suggested having students on it. I think this was the faculty uh advising this. And so we had the uh the two committees set up, one comprising the faculty

00:07:44.950 - 00:08:06.320

and students and the other, but I am almost positive that the faculty uh and later faculty student committee was actually uh suggested by the, by the trustees by Malcolm Lovett and the others. Um Was it your impression? Uh uh then that uh if since the board

00:08:06.329 - 00:08:22.079

had requested this action that they intend to take it rather seriously? Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm, I'm quite convinced in my own mind that the the trustees were serious in, in using this as a uh I, but I should make it clear. They, they, I am quite

00:08:22.089 - 00:08:38.400

convinced that they felt that they were going to use the faculty committee as an advisory board to give them suggestions, uh advice and that sort of thing. I don't think there was ever any question in the minds of the, of the trustees that they had the

00:08:38.409 - 00:08:54.969

last word. In the selection of president. And I might add that there should be no question in the mind of any faculty member, uh any faculty member who knows anything about the academic tradition that it is the trustees who select the president and that we who

00:08:54.979 - 00:09:09.619

were on that committee were simply serving in an advisory capacity and any faculty member. And I don't know of anyone on the committee who thought otherwise would have to be crazy to, to think anything else, you know, that we had the right to veto. For example,

00:09:09.630 - 00:09:26.690

anyone they, they uh recommended. Now, on the other hand, I think as a and I speak as a faculty member too, after all, I've been in the academic world now for almost a quarter of a century, we would expect the trustees to take our objections seriously,

00:09:27.260 - 00:09:42.849

but we would not, um on the other hand, feel that we would have a veto. Now there's a difference between having a veto and, and having serious position in the selection of the, of the president. I think uh there has to be a distinction made there

00:09:43.359 - 00:10:03.229

and that trust any trustee uh group would resent the idea of having a faculty or certainly faculty student veto power over the trustee selection of a president. I don't think there's any trustee or regent group that would tolerate this and never has been, I mean, it

00:10:03.840 - 00:10:23.119

and yet consultation is just one way of paving the way to uh to their selectees, effective operations. Yes, there should be uh serious consultation and I believe the trustees were absolutely sincere in setting up this committee and, and having having serious consultation with the committee, there

00:10:23.130 - 00:10:39.549

were a number of circumstances that prevented this and I think this is what the faculty and the stress and the students don't realize some of these uh the full extent of the circumstances that prevented the full measure of consultation. And this is probably where I can

00:10:39.559 - 00:11:04.859

give you some interesting. Yes, because Malcolm Lovett was the chairman of the trustee committee. If you know anything about committee structures, it's almost invariably the the chairman who does 90% of the work. Invariably this is the way it happens. Well, he felt seriously ill and my

00:11:04.869 - 00:11:19.440

dad parenthetically that he fell ill on one of the trips to uh in the in the selection of the president that is interviewing people. It was in Washington, as I recall and picking up a bag, he strained his back and had this serious back condition which

00:11:19.450 - 00:11:35.599

landed him in the hospital and he was in the hospital for, I don't know, in all about three months or something like that, he had an operation. So it was out of the say in French or de combat for about 90 days or so. Well, during

00:11:35.609 - 00:11:52.789

this time, the stymied much of the Consul Consultative process which we had planned. As a matter of fact, I might add for the record that we had planned a meeting with Malcolm and his committee. Malcolm Lovett and his committee with our committee. And it was, it

00:11:52.799 - 00:12:12.200

had to be canceled simply because he landed in the hospital. And you see, from that point on, he was in the hospital for weeks on end. Now, this necessarily hampered the whole process of intercommunication between the two committees. Um and it took quite a while before

00:12:12.210 - 00:12:29.150

Malcolm Lovett finally gave the reins of responsibility to the vice chairman who was her uh her ball. But nonetheless, you can, you can appreciate the fact that there was a lot of precious time lost during which time the faculty student committee felt that they were not

00:12:29.159 - 00:12:45.559

being consulted enough, but it's perfectly understandable for anyone who knows the committee process that the this whole thing had broken down because the the chairman was no longer functioning. I mean, it's just as simple as that. Uh and he was still trying to operate from the,

00:12:45.570 - 00:13:04.140

from his uh uh bed of pain. And that's no uh no figure of speech. This was literally a bed of pain and still trying to keep the some selection process going and they were interviewing candidates. We in the meantime had been working uh meeting quite regularly,

00:13:04.489 - 00:13:26.510

had gone through a number of candidates, uh looked up their qualifications and had submitted as I recall five names. I'm not positive. Now, it seems so hazy in the background but something like five names, two of the committee now as events later proved, uh uh they

00:13:27.479 - 00:13:46.659

at least confirm this. They had already consulted. I, I don't remember exactly but about three of these five already, they had, they were thinking of three of these five, and had already gone through the checking out of these people. Uh about, I would say at least

00:13:46.669 - 00:14:02.929

three of the five were automatically disqualified because they were not interested for one reason or another. In other words, the trustees had already been checking out some of the same names that we had turned in. Now. It's true. They hadn't checked out all five. but I

00:14:02.940 - 00:14:24.989

think the, uh, opinion abroad, the consensus among some of the students and faculty that the trustees completely ignored that our committee is absolutely false because they did take our list, uh, seriously. Well, I'm very glad you made that point. And is your understanding that they actually

00:14:25.000 - 00:14:40.809

did go to some effort to determine whether these people were available, rejected on the basis of availability alone? And I don't remember the names exactly. But one made it quite clear that he was absolutely not interested. He accepted the job and at at least three I

00:14:40.820 - 00:14:58.969

would say, had been checked out thoroughly and were, were unavailable. So it's not as though that they completely have received the list of five and just thrown the web after all, we're not interested in that. Let's just go on with our own process. Yes, obviously, the,

00:14:59.210 - 00:15:15.840

the overlapping showed that at least the trustees were thinking in terms of some of the same criteria that we were with regard to because we had set up a list of criteria for any possible candidate and that overlap uh 60% or whatever it was certainly indicated.

00:15:15.849 - 00:15:30.200

The trustees were not so far off base as far as the kind of criteria that they demanded of a president. So it, it seems to me unfair this. Uh and I'm not speaking as an administrator and I'm talking as a, as a faculty member. It's unfair

00:15:30.210 - 00:15:48.700

for people to go half cocked and making accusations and denunciations of people when they, when they're working on the skimpiest of facts. This is the, what annoys me. Were you aware of uh any other names uh uh that were very highly thought of in the committee

00:15:48.710 - 00:16:05.109

that the board also had checked out? No, I frankly do not know. Uh All I know is about these five that were turned into them. Uh We never did get, at least I never found out uh the list, for example of the names that they had

00:16:05.119 - 00:16:18.909

uh checked out, you know, the entire list. They made it clear that they had checked out some of the, some of these five, you see, but I didn't find out just how much there was and their total look and your total. Uh What did she ask

00:16:18.919 - 00:16:33.969

you about these five names that were submitted? How do you mean the qualifications of five? Well, I frankly didn't know any of the five personally. So it, it was hard and Masterson was not one of them. My dad and I don't know Masterson really personally. I

00:16:33.979 - 00:16:51.979

just knew the first year we were here. I was here, we overlapped, but uh he was not in administrative position. We just got to know each other at a dinner party, that sort of thing. And I knew none of the other um inner workings before my

00:16:51.989 - 00:17:08.280

arrival, which caused some people to be venomously opposed to mas mastering. And I might add parenthetically that no man can be an administrator for any number of years without creating enemies. And then if you do, you're not a very able administrator, I mean, then you're trying

00:17:08.290 - 00:17:22.800

to be a Pollyanna, you know, and try to be a throw a sop to everybody and you're just not really ruling with the make it a hard administrative decision because if you make them, you're going to displease somebody. And over a period of years, you're going

00:17:22.810 - 00:17:43.900

to displease a number of people. And my own personal opinion is that the enemies of Masterson found this a very handy uh handle to grab onto the procedural matter in order to guillotine Masterson. Now, I don't, I don't know Masterson personally. I was not involved pro

00:17:43.939 - 00:18:00.099

or con but with Master Masterson, I didn't, I was neither strongly for him or against him. Uh, because I didn't know him that well, but it was quite obvious that there were people just out to get Masters and for personal reasons and, and decided that they

00:18:00.109 - 00:18:24.229

had an excellent uh method presented them through this procedural manner to, to attack him, to attack his nomination. I'm sure that if the procedure had been handled a little more tactfully deftly, Masterson would be president of Rice University. Now. I mean, it's a for what, I'm

00:18:24.239 - 00:18:34.849

sorry, I lost track of your, your question. What were you, what was it that I, well, I was interested in getting into this because it's one of the things we wanna talk about uh just to pursue this uh uh for a moment. Uh Do you uh

00:18:34.859 - 00:18:58.339

do you think this is a danger of promoting from within uh in, in academic environments or uh do you get the impression that, that uh the enmity against Matson was unusual? Now, I imagine that there will always be some opposition to anyone is promoted from within.

00:18:58.800 - 00:19:16.729

There's bound to be because as I say, if, well, especially, let me add, especially if the person has been in a position of power. If he hasn't been, there's no problem. Let's take places like Princeton, Harvard and so on. I think it's Princeton, especially where they

00:19:16.739 - 00:19:35.540

uh elevated an assistant professor to president. Well, who could be antagonistic to an assistant professor. He never had any position of power to, to create enemies in effect. But take a dean or even the chairman, a chairman would of necessity create some animosity because obviously, you

00:19:35.550 - 00:19:55.819

can't please everybody every time a dean can please even fewer people all the time. So there's obviously a great deal of residual animosity that's going to remain. Uh And may I say simply as an administrator if I may speak as an administrator for, for a moment,

00:19:56.790 - 00:20:13.949

you can please a chairman or professor satisfy his every whim seven days a week for four weeks running. And then if you deny him something on the fifth week, he'll forget all about the good. You've done the four weeks and he'll hate you for something to

00:20:13.959 - 00:20:26.979

say. I mean, this is possible. His question is always, what have you done for me today? That's right. So it all depends on whether the person promoted from within has been in a position of power. If he has been in a position of power, then you're

00:20:26.989 - 00:20:51.209

running against the possible danger of having animosity somewhere. Do you see in this uh in this uh polarization of attitudes? Uh any evidence of um of jealousy in this respect that uh um certain people would accept anyone for president as long as one of their own

00:20:51.219 - 00:21:14.189

colleagues were not elevated uh above them. In other words, were there, were there hopeful candidates on the campus who might have aspired to the job who? Well, yes, uh here, we're almost treading on dangerous personal ground, but obviously hope springs eternal in the human breast. And

00:21:14.199 - 00:21:35.150

without naming names, I am sure that there were some who were disappointed, would you say two or three? Well, I would say primarily one that I'm familiar with, who certainly hoped that the mantle of power would fall on his shoulders. And so therefore, he was not

00:21:35.160 - 00:21:55.319

entirely enthusiastic about the turn of events. I think it would be unfair to say that there were, I don't know any more than one person who I knew wanted the job and certainly was hoping that it would come his way. But there's always that danger, you

00:21:55.329 - 00:22:11.329

know, where there's going, there's, we're all human beings and one of the lessons of the 18th century and I'm an 18th century specialist is that human nature never varies. It's always the same and it's pretty rotten. I maybe I shouldn't be that blunt, but it is.

00:22:11.339 - 00:22:30.880

And it's uh uh we're driven by jealousies and passions and desires and so on ambition. And so obviously, there's going to be, there's gonna be within the breast of certain few the feeling of why it shouldn't be, be, be me, that sort of thing. So that

00:22:30.890 - 00:22:44.939

uh to a certain extent didn't play a role here. Well, we can come back to this in the later part of the chronology, perhaps on Sunday. Let's see, we were still in uh uh we're back in the committee um, one hypothetical question I'd like to ask

00:22:44.949 - 00:22:58.000

you. Uh, uh, I don't know whether, you know, how easy it might be to, to answer this. But, uh, looking back on this whole thing, had you been chairman of that committee? Do you think things would have gone differently? I understand it was a fairly close

00:22:58.010 - 00:23:17.469

election for, as chairman of the faculty advisory committee. Oh, no, no. I think our channel was very good. Uh bra he an absolutely perfect person. As a matter of fact, he has good presidential qua qualities himself. I think, no, I, I don't think that uh this

00:23:17.479 - 00:23:38.180

had the breakdown, had nothing to do with our chairman. It's a and I think that would be very unfair to, to our chairman. You don't have any qualms about how uh uh assertive or non assertive the committee was in pursuing its responsibilities. No, I think that

00:23:38.189 - 00:23:52.569

the committee did everything that could be asked of a committee and the chairman certainly did everything that could be asked of a chairman. I think the, the failure came at the other end simply and, and I, I repeat because of some of these circumstances which were

00:23:52.579 - 00:24:10.839

unavoidable, I am convinced that had Malcolm Lovett not fallen ill and I might say in the line of duty because he was on a trip. But I believe it was to Washington in order to interview Wilson of the uh uh what is the president of Ford

00:24:10.849 - 00:24:25.050

Foundation or something, I forget one of the big foundations about possible candidates. I'm sure that this would not have happened, this fiasco would not have happened. In other words, the lines of communication would have remained open. We would have had our meeting, for example, that would

00:24:25.060 - 00:24:45.010

have led to others and those lines would have remained constantly open. But they, it's just unfortunate set of circumstances on the basis of your knowledge of the trustees. Um uh Well, we'll talk about, say Mr Levitt and Mr Teague and Mr Allen, um, are these people

00:24:45.020 - 00:25:03.729

who keep fairly close in touch with the edu educational thinking in higher circles throughout the country or are they, uh pretty provincial or restricted in their outlook? Uh, well, do they, do they deal much with other trustees from other universities, uh, or just mostly in the

00:25:03.739 - 00:25:19.560

Southwest or several of them, you know, or trustees of different universities? So they, they can't be exactly provincial as some people would think. But I think in your comments on this because they've been accused of this. I know and it's, uh, I think quite often they're

00:25:19.569 - 00:25:41.310

very unjust because they don't know people. Malcolm Lovett, for example, is a good heavens. He, he's about as, uh, as provincial as, um, well, I mean, well, I would have to say certainly he's a lot less provincial than I am and I don't consider myself provincial

00:25:41.359 - 00:25:58.189

after all, this guy is the governor of the, the board at the Harvard University, for example, uh, that sort of thing. I mean, he's abroad all the time. He's traveling all the time. He's not just a, uh, provincial minded Houstonian and completely Houston oriented that sort

00:25:58.199 - 00:26:14.569

of thing. Uh Herb Allen and, and Jim Teague don't have probably the broad experience of, uh Malcolm Lovitt. But on the other hand, good lord, they are interested in what is going on on the, uh, you know, in the educational uh system uh outside of uh

00:26:14.670 - 00:26:35.079

Houston and Texas as any successful business manager, you could imagine they, and they're really vitally interested in, in rice. Um Now I'm sure that they, they don't have the, the diplomatic and the cultured and polished language of some of our professors. And they, this probably, and

00:26:35.089 - 00:26:52.890

they're blunt, which I admire uh sometimes circumlocution can be a, a disaster as well as a merit, you know, and these people are pretty blunt and they tell you exactly what they think and sometimes this is taken amiss. Uh but I think as I say, this

00:26:53.060 - 00:27:11.079

is not necessarily a flaw, this is a merit, but they, they're certainly very interested in what goes on in the educational world and, and try to relate it to rice, probably not as much as as Malton LD. Malton LD simply had the, had the experience of

00:27:11.979 - 00:27:24.969

not only his own own broad personal background after all, he was the son of the first president of Rice. And so he's been in the academic world all his life uh as opposed to the other people who have been in the business world, primarily all their

00:27:24.979 - 00:27:39.750

lives. And in addition, of course, he's the chairman of the board and would therefore automatically become more interested in the whole broad spectrum and would have broader contacts and so on. But I personally uh have found our trustees, the ones I have dealt with and the

00:27:39.760 - 00:27:59.569

two you mentioned, especially Herb Allen and t to be she just marvelous human beings. And it's, it's hard for me to understand how people could despise these people. Her ban, who by the way was a man who fought his way to the top by sheer ability

00:27:59.760 - 00:28:18.119

and perseverance. And is now as you know, the head of Cameron Ironworks, one of the big industries throughout the world, that man came virtually on his knees to our faculty student committee and apologized for the boo boo because they realized that they had boo booed it

00:28:18.130 - 00:28:40.959

unwittingly, but nonetheless had had boo boo. You could, you could not imagine or hope for a greater measure of conness and apology. On the part. By the way, he came with, with Jim Teague to that meeting uh with our committee after the, the initial announcement or

00:28:40.969 - 00:29:01.930

the news came out that Masterson leaked out that Masterson had been selected president and profusely apologized and the way, um now I I'll admit that this does not undo the wrong uh that they had uh boo booed a bit with regard to method. I mean, that

00:29:02.030 - 00:29:21.119

the procedure and they had not kept the committee entirely abreast of what they were doing, but at least they realized they had made a mistake and they apologized for it and no one could be asked to apologize more than the these very proud men apologized. And

00:29:21.130 - 00:29:37.410

I think it was almost um in my estimation, embarrassing to watch some of the faculty and some of the students on their committee demanding the last ounce of flesh from these two men. If you had been there, I'm sure you would agree with me. It was

00:29:37.910 - 00:29:52.250

just uncalled for, it was just like knowing you had someone down and, and you just kept jumping out of his throat. I mean, it's a, it's not as though they said, look, we have the last word and by God, that's the way we're going to do

00:29:52.260 - 00:30:18.219

it and we have nothing to do about it. They contritely apologized for, for having um not having consulted enough the committee but explained the circumstances which had led them down this pitfall. My own position was that unless we act actually felt that the man was totally

00:30:18.229 - 00:30:36.030

irresponsible and incapable of being president, we should accept the apology of the uh that these men were making openly and indeed they came afterwards, not only to this committee, but also to the faculty, you know, and presented the same sort of speech to the faculty, the

00:30:36.040 - 00:30:53.900

total faculty with plenty of students, I might have gathered up in the, in the top, but it's, um, uh, not officially incidentally, of course, the doors were open and some of the ringleaders were up there to make sure what was going on. You see, besides, they

00:30:53.910 - 00:31:13.560

had plenty of faculty who are keeping the student well, apprised of, of what was going on because unfortunately, this sort of machination is always a foot in the political world. And this is politics too, you understand. So I have, I have a sympathetic, it is somewhat

00:31:13.569 - 00:31:35.479

ambivalent but certainly sympathetic point of view. I too realize that they, they boo booed. Indeed. I was the first one to tell them when Herb Allan called me in and notified me about Masterson. And when I realized that this was a fit accompli, I immediately raised

00:31:35.489 - 00:31:51.410

the the danger flag for him and pointed out to him that the trouble that might be brewing because of this, if this was indeed a fact and that the first thing he should do is immediately get together with the faculty and student committee and try to

00:31:51.420 - 00:32:08.290

explain why they were compelled to make this hasty decision without, without a first a preliminary meeting, at least with the faculty student committee and immediately, and that's the meeting which he came and apologized profusely for having been forced into this position. But you had talked with

00:32:08.300 - 00:32:22.829

him personally prior to this announcement were you and doctor brought in there at the same time? Or, or he talked to you or he, he spoke to me, he spoke to Bill Gordon who was a member of the executive committee chairman of the executive committee and

00:32:22.839 - 00:32:37.880

spoke to me and he spoke to us the same afternoon one right after the other. As a matter of fact, as I recall, Bill Gordon was leaving on a trip and was already on his way to a plane when I met with Herb Allen. And uh

00:32:38.969 - 00:32:54.790

as I recall, I immediately, when I learned the full extent of this, I didn't know anything about Masterson, I might add. And this was the first I'd heard of Masterson in this connection. I immediately suggested to Herb Allen that he get in touch with the, our

00:32:54.800 - 00:33:13.790

chairman rot and if possible, immediately come before our committee and he did this as quickly as I think he got in touch with Ronson that same afternoon. I'm not positive of the timing but uh very, very shortly after my meeting with Herb Allen, your understanding then

00:33:13.800 - 00:33:32.300

that uh that the, the procedure that Herb Allen used was uh Gordon. And then you and then uh ro somewhat in that office, I would say that because I think at this time, I'm not sure, I don't know where Chancellor Chronis was, whether he was still

00:33:32.310 - 00:33:47.520

ill. No, I think Chancellor Cronise hadn't been back and he did meet with Chancellor Cron and I don't remember exactly when he met with Chancellor Cron. And how about, uh, uh, uh, Doctor Sims? Is it? Uh, yes. And I don't know, I don't believe he had

00:33:47.530 - 00:34:04.640

talked to Doctor Sims yet. I have the impression that he talked to Bill Gordon first and I must have been second because as I say, I was meeting with her when Bill Gordon was walking out to meet his plane to catch his plane. So it would

00:34:04.650 - 00:34:23.049

have been impossible for him to, uh, to talk to Chancellor Cron unless he had talked to Chancellor Cron before he talked to Bill Gordon, which seems, seems unlikely, but I'm not really positive of the, uh, of that sequence there. Did you get the impression that, uh,

00:34:23.059 - 00:34:39.250

Bill Gordon had given the same reaction to uh Herb Allen that, uh, that you were giving him? In other words, preparing him for faculty resentment is, I don't know. Well, how did he present it to you? Uh Even that's a little fuzzy. He started to talk

00:34:39.260 - 00:34:57.749

to me about the, the committee having, uh, um, pretty much settled down. I forget how, what his words were. Masterson and one statement led to another and it suddenly began to dawn on me that probably Masterson had already been selected. And I remember asking him whether

00:34:57.759 - 00:35:14.850

he had indeed been already offered the position and it came out that he had been and that he had accepted. And that's when I became a little bit alarmed at what possible consequences might be and instantly urged him to try to recoup at any rate, the

00:35:15.280 - 00:35:39.479

the possible bad relations that would be created by, by sudden what would look like an ultimatum delivered to the faculty and students. But uh you should always remember that her ball in his sense was uh acting in lieu of Malcolm Lovett, who was a sort of

00:35:39.489 - 00:35:55.070

a victim of circumstances too because, you know, he was sort of thrust into the role where he had to be the front man. Uh I don't know exactly who was the most instrumental in the selection of master. And this is, at least as far as I'm

00:35:55.080 - 00:36:14.070

concerned, has never come out clearly, but the whole board had, uh, and apparently met with Masterson and approved of him wholeheartedly and because of the urgency of the matter, they wanted to get a man in, in, uh, you know, at the helm, that sort of thing

00:36:14.080 - 00:36:34.350

had decided to, to give him his position, uh you know, the offer, what do you understand? They considered the urgency of the situation. Well, any, any university without a leader is in a bad situation and especially a, a university or anything that's being run by a

00:36:34.360 - 00:36:55.419

committee is automatically running at, at the most 40% efficiency, you know, committee uh rule, uh, committee uh rule is just absolutely impossible, intolerable. Let me assure you as one who was a member of the executive committee for almost a year. It's an intolerable situation. Absolutely intolerable.

00:36:56.020 - 00:37:13.250

Uh, you just don't know who the devil is, has power to, to, to, uh, give an order and it's, it's like having a ship with about four captains, you know, and you just, uh, it, it just doesn't work well and frankly, I don't blame the trustees

00:37:13.260 - 00:37:31.250

for realizing there was urgency involved here. Uh, and another thing you have to keep in mind, it's almost impossible to hire good men unless you have a captain at the helm. Uh I don't know how well you're familiar with the academic situation, but frankly, I, I

00:37:31.260 - 00:37:49.370

would hesitate to go. Well, let me put it this way. It's a lot easier to impress. Now I'm talking about top candidates, you know, not assistant professors, associate professors, but you're trying to get a big name in. It's a lot easier to give that final selling

00:37:49.379 - 00:38:06.250

job by taking him into the office of the president and having to meet President Pitzer or someone who's well established, entrenched in authority and can speak for the university instead of having to go around and, and meeting the members of the committee who have only a

00:38:07.189 - 00:38:22.830

say 25% of the power. You know, I mean, it's, it's just, it just doesn't work. Uh, well, that way, no one can really speak for the goals of the university when a senior man comes into a university almost inevitably what he's worrying about is not so

00:38:22.840 - 00:38:41.600

much his own salary. Uh, and not if he's a good man and his own little perquisites. But if he say a psychologist, what's the future of psychology? What's the future of his own particular specialty? Um, no one can really speak to that except the head of

00:38:41.610 - 00:38:56.750

the university. No one can. Uh a dean can say this is what we're going to do in your field. Um He just can't do it. He's not the last word and no member of the committee can do that. You see, so you're at a disadvantage and

00:38:56.760 - 00:39:10.110

indeed, if the man is smart enough and he should be, if he's being considered for a top position, he knows that no one can speak except the man who really is at the helm. And so you see it waters down that selling position of a university.

00:39:10.500 - 00:39:25.290

So it hurts recruitment. Were there were there other crises that uh were showing up on the horizon? What, what was the financial picture? Well, of course, the financial picture too was hurt considerably by not having the head of a university? I mean, obviously, now let me

00:39:25.300 - 00:39:46.040

give you an example. This is an example that hurt, I might add, we had finished our budget at the usual time around December. So uh January, certainly the budget was all finished. We lost an NSF grant. Now it's true that most of the universities lost NSF

00:39:46.050 - 00:40:02.080

grants, but we lost a million dollars. It was cut by a million dollars. Suddenly like that after we had completed our budget, which included this million dollars. And I am sure that we lost it simply because Ken Pizza was no longer at the helm of the

00:40:02.090 - 00:40:18.090

university. Uh We had gotten this big uh grant in the first place with the 3 million something NSF grant on the basis of the stature of Pitzer. And the, the realization that with Pitzer at the helm, you had to have a going operation. You see, then

00:40:18.100 - 00:40:36.600

suddenly the review board, the, the, the visiting committee, one of the site committee comes down, they realize that Pitzer is leaving and then you have a sort of a uh in French, we say, Levi, let's see what Yahoo a vacuum is the word created. Well, they're

00:40:36.610 - 00:40:53.209

not going to be as favorably disposed to continuing pouring money into a vacuum when they have to cut somewhere. You know, they're, they're confronted with choices, they've got to cut. Well, they prefer to give it where they feel that the money is going to do the

00:40:53.219 - 00:41:10.189

most good. And here is the top man gone. The one who's going to in a sense, provide the leadership and the inspiration and so on. That's a concrete example. I am positive of the financial loss to the university by not having uh the titular a man

00:41:10.199 - 00:41:33.760

who commands respect. And I'm sure that this could be multiplied, but there is a concrete example and this incidentally created budgetary chaos. I uh 11 thing that uh has been said that uh they, they caused the board to create a or to imagine that there was

00:41:33.770 - 00:41:45.189

a sense of urgency was the fact that an SDS chapter had been established on campus. Uh How would you address uh your comments to that? Oh, I don't think so. I was in, after all, I was a member of the executive committee. I was a dean

00:41:45.199 - 00:42:04.889

and I was with the trustees. I never heard this broached at all. It was never mentioned. At least I can positively say I never heard a word on this store at all. You've never heard any of the trustees express any concern about an SDS chapter at

00:42:04.899 - 00:42:20.439

Ross. No, no. Naturally they don't like the idea. You know, I mean, that's who does anyone in this who's saying if he had a choice would rather not have an sds. And if he, if he would rather have an sds, there's a person I wouldn't like

00:42:20.449 - 00:42:38.020

to have on the campus. But on the other hand, you realize that the campus is uh the last bastion of freedom and that you've got to tolerate things that you don't agree with. I'm a Voltaire scholar and one of the um incidentally was erroneously used by

00:42:38.030 - 00:42:52.560

the, the Times the New York Times as the masthead for years before it was exposed to be false, but it was attributed to Voltaire. But nonetheless, it dust sum up the philosophy of Voltaire. I disagree, disagree wholeheartedly with what you say. But we will defend with

00:42:52.570 - 00:43:08.100

my life. You're right to say it. And this is that he didn't really say it. And we finally, I didn't. But my, uh, my mentor who, who supervised my book, my master's in doctoral dissertation finally convinced the New York Times. Voltaire had never said it, but

00:43:08.110 - 00:43:24.409

they used it for years, you know, it was a masthead. But at any rate, this is what the academic life is all about. It should be the last bastion of freedom. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to approve of all the things that are permitted by

00:43:24.570 - 00:43:42.139

the bastion of freedom. You know, I mean, I don't agree with a lot of the nonsense that goes on under the name of, of academic freedom. But uh I'd be the, uh the, certainly the first to defend it that the continuation of that freedom. So, but

00:43:42.149 - 00:43:59.260

none, I had never heard anyone making any comments about the sts with regard to the, you know, the presidential. Well, I'm very glad that we uh cleared up that point. I uh as I say it has, it has been suggested in various press releases and articles

00:43:59.270 - 00:44:16.260

and so forth, uh as well as uh once or twice in these, these interviews, I believe, um getting back to your um discussion with, um her balance was before we leave that, is there anything else that stands out in your mind in that, uh, that consultation?

00:44:18.250 - 00:44:36.399

No, I think I've, no, the only, the only thing is the, I think the important thing is that once I realized that the decision had been made, I, I also realized immediately the need for, uh, getting, getting these bridges back in order in order to try

00:44:36.409 - 00:44:55.189

to get the, the groups working harmoniously here because I realize the danger that this and indeed, it's just what happened. You've described um Mr Allen's presentation of the uh of the, of their selection at the meeting with the faculty advisory committee. Is there anything that stands

00:44:55.199 - 00:45:12.790

out in your mind about the reaction of the various members of the committee? What, what did you see going on there while there were some faculty members who were of course shocked? Now, uh I repeat, I think some of them were sincerely shocked because of the,

00:45:12.800 - 00:45:37.810

the uh method that and used the procedure. Uh They were shocked by the, by their, their feeling that the trustees had overlooked the uh faculty student committee, not overlooked, ignored or disregarded, choose whatever verb you wish. On the other hand, I'm equally certain that some were

00:45:38.209 - 00:46:01.689

uh disturbed because of the person involved Masterson and therefore became even more vitriolic in their condemnation of the procedure. If you see my, my point. Uh so that I felt in from this point of view that some people were being overly uh vitriolic in this, that

00:46:01.699 - 00:46:21.310

they were, they were letting their personal prejudices become involved with the objective objection if I may put it that way to the procedure and there were six members on the committee. Um, Friends Bronson would have known about it before. So, uh, and you knew about it

00:46:21.320 - 00:46:39.290

before, do you know whether Mr Kil was aware of the charge before the meeting? I'm not sure. I would personally think that they weren't. I, but I, I can't say I, I know that Braton was uh was notified and I think that probably brat and I

00:46:39.300 - 00:46:50.040

were the only ones who were notified before the meeting. But of course, the meeting I think took place the next day. I'm not sure. I, I think you're right. I think the meeting did take place on Thursday as I recall the chronology. So your, your discussion

00:46:50.050 - 00:47:07.090

with her was probably late afternoon, Lorda was about to as I recall five or even after five or somewhere around there. So it was late afternoon. So there would have been very little chance to, uh besides, I, I don't think there would have been any need

00:47:07.100 - 00:47:23.149

really to get in touch with in as much as you were going to have the committee meeting the next day. Well, Mr C had submitted Masterson his name. I understand uh earlier. Uh Do you recall his doing that? No, I heard something about that. I was

00:47:23.159 - 00:47:38.060

not at the meeting when that took place, if it did take place. But apparently he was not in the, as the names were winnowed down the list. You know, he was not in any of the lists that the, the final list that we had. So somewhere

00:47:38.070 - 00:47:53.310

along the line, if he, his name was submitted, it must have been uh chopped down and I could easily understand why because as I say, there were some members on the committee who didn't like masters in any way. So they would have been very unhappy with

00:47:53.320 - 00:48:09.050

the, with submitting master in as a as one of their candidates. But I wasn't there at the, at the time, I didn't get to all the meetings because I get tied up as a dean and, and sometimes I would get there late and that sort of

00:48:09.060 - 00:48:31.540

thing. Well, is there anything else that occurred in this meeting that uh particularly impressed you? You mean the meeting with the meal uh with the her ball and cheek and the committee? No, just, yeah, he tried to explain to the committee. Uh Well, first he told

00:48:31.550 - 00:48:44.500

him that this choice had been made, the selection had been made. And he tried to explain in as contrite a way as one could ever hope of any man. And especially as I say, a titan in industry who used to giving altars and being a captain.

00:48:45.030 - 00:49:02.330

He was certainly uh being as contrite as you could ever expect any human being to be. And he was trying to explain the way the, the situations, the circumstances that led up to this. As a matter of fact, I felt sorry for him watching him. So,

00:49:03.149 - 00:49:18.620

looking back on it now, uh do you recall any um suggestion that, um, that maybe the uh under the circumstances, the committee should go ahead and endorse this election in order to sort of pave the way for his success Or maybe it was maybe it wasn't

00:49:18.629 - 00:49:39.159

cast in those terms. Did any member of the committee suggest that the committee endorse this election? Like, take a vote on, on approval on them? No, I don't believe uh anyone did. Um I remember saying at the committee because we had, at that committee meeting agreed

00:49:39.169 - 00:50:01.949

that Mr Allen should address the faculty as I recall. And we also had agreed that Bratton and, and probably not absolutely accurate. Uh But that Bratton would of course make some comments first and then introduce uh uh Allen. I believe that's the procedure that had been

00:50:01.959 - 00:50:19.629

arranged. And then there was some question as to what bra some would say, uh you know, to the faculty. And indeed, I remember that was bothering Bratton as to what he should say. And uh we were uh debating even among the members there with her ball

00:50:19.689 - 00:50:38.770

and t there just how to, to broach this. And I remember my saying and I don't remember exactly what I said, but uh that if we honestly believed what Mr Allen had said to us, and I honestly believed him that the circumstances had followed up things

00:50:39.929 - 00:51:00.899

and that we actually did realize that the committee, the trusty committee had not simply disregarded our committee as it was brooded about as her b and made clear to us, they had certainly taken that, that list of five seriously and indeed had checked out some and,

00:51:01.370 - 00:51:18.429

and there, there had been this overlapping and that if we could point this out, if we really felt that we wanted to be constructive, we could point out these things uh that I think it would pave the way for an amicable, you know, settlement of this

00:51:18.439 - 00:51:37.810

crisis that had developed. So I knew even as I said, this, that this would be unpalatable to some the difficulty as you see, that let's make one of my, at my position a little delicate because um even though I had been selected by the faculty to

00:51:37.820 - 00:51:55.429

represent them, some people who tend to be of the opposite point of view will always be suspect, uh feel that you're a suspect because you're the administrator and that you're simply trying to defend the uh uh the powers that be the, the the trustees. Yeah, acting

00:51:55.439 - 00:52:18.469

like a company man. And it wasn't that at all. But uh but I felt that if we really didn't, if we really didn't feel that Masterson was such a bad choice that he could really operate as president. This, uh, procedural breach could certainly be glossed over

00:52:18.840 - 00:52:36.739

if all the facts were presented. Honestly. Now, this wouldn't, I don't mean to imply that, uh, the default facts were presented, it would eliminate completely the procedural breach, but it certainly would eliminate from the minds of most of the people, the feeling that we had not

00:52:36.750 - 00:52:55.639

been consulted at all that we had been completely ignored. It was, it wasn't true. Now, we had had meetings simply because of the illness and this should be pointed out and that sort of thing. But I could see that this was falling down, rather unreceptive ears.

00:52:57.139 - 00:53:10.989

How do you think this committee was split in this very first meeting? Uh disregarding the students among the faculty. Would you say it was three and three, or would in, in terms of taking your suggestion and accepting it as a, as an accomplished fact and uh

00:53:11.770 - 00:53:26.919

trying to pave the way for uh uh an amicable settlement. I think the proof that I'm not a politician never have been and hopefully will never be is that I, I can't honestly even tell you that a politician would know immediately he'd be able to tell

00:53:26.929 - 00:53:43.300

you exactly who was for him or against him. But I, I would say off hand, it was about half and half. Yeah. And of course, the students were almost solidly opposed. We had, uh I think we have three students and two of them, of course, were

00:53:43.310 - 00:54:01.370

very radical. So it would be, or was this Greg and Mary were radical? And George for all a graduate student was, let's see, there was, what was their name was, was a young man. And the uh there was a graduate student, I can't think of his

00:54:01.489 - 00:54:28.520

name. His name was George Forestall. How some of their questioning honestly resembled a prosecuting attorney, you know, grinding witness into the ground. I mean, the questioning teague and, and uh her balance. And even later when uh Malcolm Lovett appeared before a committee, it's um very few

00:54:28.530 - 00:54:50.679

faculty members would dare to, to address a trustee with the scorn and all that sort of thing that they, they exhibited. This is uh of course, one of the things that that one finds prevalent among students these days, the militant ones, heavens to Betsy. We fortunately

00:54:50.689 - 00:55:11.310

have a pretty good student body here, but there always be and they somehow get carried away by their own sense of either power or I think even worse than that their own uh feeling of importance. I mean, they, they take things so seriously now it's wonderful

00:55:11.320 - 00:55:30.639

to take things seriously, but I think they take things too seriously, you know, the whole end of the world will come to her cataclysmic, cataclysmic. Uh and if, if somehow or rather their ideals cannot be held untarnished. And I think the one of the lessons that

00:55:30.649 - 00:55:47.760

youth still has to learn the militant youth is that life is a series of compromises. The gene, you can't have everything black or white and this comes with experience and wisdom, I suppose. Now it's wonderful to have ideals. Good Lord. I've been an idealist all my

00:55:47.770 - 00:56:05.989

life, but I think you have to realize that you have to cope with reality and some of these ideals have to be modified, moderated and this is what's difficult for you to accept. And that's true, you know, all the big issues Vietnam and so on. Yeah,

00:56:07.020 - 00:56:27.620

which is fine, I suppose maybe the youth thereby keeps us who have learned to moderate, you know, keep us from moderating too much, you know, so they probably serve a good, good uh function. But I think this uh pushes them into extreme positions where they become,

00:56:27.679 - 00:56:44.739

if nothing else, sometimes terribly disrespectful of their elders that uh not you, you're much too young. But certainly my generation would never even have dreamed of, you know, that sort of thing and maybe that's good, but I doubt it. You mentioned Malcolm Lovitz appearing before a

00:56:44.750 - 00:56:57.260

committee. Was that in connection with this episode or, or did this happen later? He said the fact the faculty member would have treated a trustee in the way he appeared before our committee afterwards after he was out of the hospital and everything. Uh indeed, this was

00:56:57.270 - 00:57:12.629

after the uh the mass and the bear. I don't believe I've heard a description of that meeting. Um I forget when this happened but uh oh, as a matter of fact, we may have had two meetings but then we were trying to think uh to work

00:57:12.639 - 00:57:29.040

up another. You see, we were thinking in terms of uh now proceeding from there and going on was this van had been appointed acting president or did this occur even later? Well, one of them, Vandever was already president, acting president because I can remember at least

00:57:29.050 - 00:57:49.409

one of those meetings I attended, I was already vice president. So obviously, this was after um Vander Vander for became acting president. Now at least one, I am positive of I was vice president. So this was after um must have been then somewhere between April and

00:57:49.419 - 00:58:06.729

uh the end of school, somewhere in there. I forget exactly when, when was the Masterson affair? I've even forgotten uh February 21st. So this was so and I believe I may be wrong, but we, we probably had at least two meetings at which uh Malcolm Lovitt

00:58:06.739 - 00:58:20.550

appeared before the committee and we were trying to work out a mo uh a modus vivendi at that at this point for the future and trying to uh sort of pick up the broken pieces and knowing just how we were going to proceed. And in some

00:58:20.560 - 00:58:35.530

of the at these meetings, at one meeting or two meetings, whichever they were, I think there were two Malcolm Lovett made it quite clear to that committee, uh, that in spite of the fact that things had gone awry and much of the fault was, of course,

00:58:35.540 - 00:58:58.489

the breakdown in communication because of the circumstances that the trustee still felt that there was no question in their minds. They selected the president and I, I fully agree with them and I still feel that any faculty member who feels otherwise just hasn't, doesn't know very

00:58:58.500 - 00:59:18.590

much about the academic world. I mean, if the, if the faculty feels that they select, select the president, that they've got another thing coming, they just don't, they should be consulted and consulted seriously. And obviously, if the trustees suggest a name to a faculty committee, uh

00:59:18.760 - 00:59:34.790

and the faculty unanimously shows the trustees that this guy would be terrible for a university, they would be utter fools to nominate to, to make him president. And I, I don't think there are any trustees in the world who would in the face of solid opposition

00:59:36.540 - 00:59:52.979

and that's what they use faculty for, for, for advice. But on the other hand, uh the faculty committee can't come up with a vote of 6 to 4 against someone and veto somebody if you see my point, I mean, this would be a uh misuse and

00:59:52.989 - 01:00:09.770

abuse of the consultant powers, consultative powers of the faculty. And of course, it will be even equally greater abuse on the part of the students. I still firmly believe that the students don't know very much about what a president is, what his functions are, what his

01:00:09.780 - 01:00:26.510

duties are, what his responsibilities are, what his qualifications should be, just what is involved in being a president. I am willing to bet that, that 99 out of 100 students having the foggiest idea of what is involved in being a president. How can you select a

01:00:26.520 - 01:00:48.969

president if you don't know what the presidency involves? Now, they can have these wonderful lofty ideals about uh being uh a diplomat and being idealistic and, but these are all generalities. You would uh Yes and being uh uh having an empathy with students and faculty and

01:00:48.979 - 01:01:03.399

being a great scholar and all that sort of thing. But good heavens what idiot doesn't know this. Uh You still have to get down to the nitty gritty of getting down to the details of a man and, and figuring out whether this man would make a

01:01:03.409 - 01:01:22.310

good working president. And I might add this is the same way with faculty selection when students try to tell me that they should be involved in the actual selection and firing the faculty and they're barking up the wrong tree as far as I'm concerned, they just

01:01:22.320 - 01:01:39.010

aren't qualified for that sort of thing. It's, and I don't care what anyone says. I, from my own quarter century of experience, I'd be willing to stand or fall by that. They are not in a position to, to tell you that this man is going to

01:01:39.020 - 01:01:53.000

be a good faculty member and that man isn't going to be a good faculty member or even that that fellow after he's been appointed is a bad faculty member because for one thing, the most they can be doing is looking at one side of him. How

01:01:53.010 - 01:02:08.709

effective is he in the classroom? That is, is he a popular teacher now being a good teacher has a hell of a lot of ram ramifications. Um I know very few teachers who, if they really put their minds to it couldn't be popular with students by

01:02:08.719 - 01:02:24.780

putting on a histrionic act. Uh This doesn't necessarily mean that there are scholars in their field. Uh They're, they're, they're respected by, by colleagues, peers in the profession, that sort of thing. I don't mean that it doesn't help to be a good teacher. I don't wish

01:02:24.790 - 01:02:39.010

to imply that at all or have it inferred that, I mean, that, on the contrary, I think that normally speaking, a good scholar would be a good teacher and vice versa, but you could have a good scholar who's a lousy teacher and you could have a

01:02:39.020 - 01:02:58.929

terribly good teacher who's a lousy scholar and just doesn't count at all. I mean, you can't build a school on simply uh uh proliferation, let's say of popular and quotes teachers. That's not the way you build a university. And uh I, I hate to broach this

01:02:58.939 - 01:03:14.270

subject because, you know, this always can be misinterpreted. I like, I consider myself a popular teacher that is students like me. But on the other hand, if I felt that my popularity had to be bought at the expense of my scholarship, I would take a hard

01:03:14.280 - 01:03:32.419

second look at that popularity. Now, I don't know if that makes sense to you, but that's strain from the field. Well, actually it's very close to uh to topics that we have discussed in these things because all of these subjects have entered in to the uh

01:03:32.469 - 01:03:47.120

uh the attitude that students have, for instance, regarding the uh the uh choice of a president, they, they do use these high sounding phrases and they do have some very big ideas and most of the phrases they use could be used for the presidency of anything,

01:03:47.129 - 01:04:02.520

a firm or a judge of the Supreme Court or politician, a senator. I mean, it's, in other words, they're not being precise enough because they lack the information. I might add that there are an awful lot of faculty members who don't know what the devil goes

01:04:02.530 - 01:04:23.340

on and at the presidential level, I mean, that sincerely, you know, you'd be surprised uh the rather vague notions of what some faculty members feel a president does or is empowered to do. There are an awful lot of things the president can't do that. Faculty members

01:04:23.350 - 01:04:36.570

have the foggiest notion of, you know, they'd be astounded if they knew that a president couldn't do this or couldn't do that. You know, it's just amazing they think that, uh, or a dean even, and of course, with the president it's worse because you somehow feel

01:04:36.580 - 01:04:52.409

the President can do anything and it's just not true. There are certain limitations to his powers and then of course, if he doesn't do something, uh, then of course he blamed, yeah, you're that idiot. It's not lack of power to do so or lack of authority

01:04:52.419 - 01:05:09.659

to do so, or the impossibility of doing so it because he's just, yeah, that's a lousy son of a gun. Yeah, absolutely fool. You know, narrow-minded provincial can't see the, the forest for the trees and all that sort of thing and the poor devil may be

01:05:09.669 - 01:05:25.250

completely hamstrung. And so one of the sad, first, sad lessons I learned as a dean was going to the president a few times for certain things I recommend certain things to be done. And the president would say, and this is Kenneth pitcher who was a strong

01:05:25.260 - 01:05:44.600

president, an eminently respected man. I said, well, you know, Mel I've got to, I can't give you a decision on that. I'll have to check with the board. And after this happened a few times, I, I was astounded because I even I who had already reached

01:05:44.610 - 01:06:05.280

the so called eminent position of dean, faculty, dean was laboring under the delusions that the president could do anything you see. And of course, this is not just a typical of a peculiar device. It's true of any big, any university, there's certain limits to a person's

01:06:05.290 - 01:06:18.179

powers. And then let's look at the president as though he was a fewer sure. I mean, if he wants to tear down a building, all he has to do is tell them to tear it down or build one, put it up. Uh, let's add 10 more

01:06:18.189 - 01:06:40.250

faculty members, you know, just skip the word that's, um, and I guess that really puts the finger on the problem most of the uh, faculty and certainly students don't realize the financial complications and things that have to be taken into account in most decisions. Let me

01:06:40.260 - 01:07:01.239

give you a simple one. Why can't we have 100 black students go out and get 100 black students to recruit them from the boondocks as soon as you come across someone who's black, bring them in. Um, well, in the first place we subsidize them completely. So

01:07:01.250 - 01:07:17.919

then they forget to, to look into the financial implications of this, aside from the social, uh, you know, problems involved here, the responsibilities of feeling of guilt and all that sort of thing. You forget to think in terms of thousands of dollars that this means. And

01:07:17.929 - 01:07:32.020

I'm just looking at the financial picture now, aside from the uh standards of the school or anything else, you know, uh, first of all, thousands of dollars involved, somebody has to give the OK to spend the thousands of dollars for a community to go scouring the

01:07:32.030 - 01:07:51.199

country to find these, these students and which we did incidentally, and we have infinitely more black students this year. But then all of the invariably, almost without exception, these black students you're gonna find are financially handicapped. They come from, from very poor families. You've got to

01:07:51.209 - 01:08:12.669

subsidize them completely. No. You know, you, let's say you have 100 and you're talking in terms of about $3000 a piece. Well, almost 30 what would that be? $300,000? Uh You know, this is not exactly pittance. I mean, somebody has to make a decision, we have

01:08:12.679 - 01:08:24.279

so much money to play with and how much of this can we afford to do for this and you know, apply to this and so on. But you see the, these no one ever thinks about those problems. I just use that as an example. I mean,

01:08:24.290 - 01:08:43.279

almost any problem has its financial roots and implications that the idealist doesn't even want to be bothered with. Kind of sounds strange coming for me because I never worried about these things myself. The idea is ideal is, I guess these, these kinds of problems, the practical

01:08:43.299 - 01:08:59.959

man, you'll find a way, you know, let's let them worry about that. All we want is the uh the realization of this idealistic position and you know, let the chips fall where they may Well, it's a, it's a complicated picture that uh that's the truth of

01:08:59.970 - 01:09:21.069

the matter and the whole educational picture becomes more and more complicated as we go along. Right. So, see, we, um, were you in town? No, let's see, you were out of town for the uh Oh, ok. I have my chronology back now. You had the limited

01:09:21.080 - 01:09:38.240

meeting with uh Allen and Teague uh and just the committee and then the following day Friday morning, sometime there was a meeting with Allen and Teague and college presidents. S A officers. I was invited to many of them that was, I think it was in Dallas

01:09:39.000 - 01:09:51.069

or Fort Worth, one of those two places. Da Da. Ok. Well, the next thing that happened then, uh, you came back to town on Saturday morning, you were in the office. Uh, and I didn't know anything about what was going on. As a matter of fact,

01:09:51.080 - 01:10:05.490

I tried to call up different people. I couldn't get anybody and I stayed in my office until about two o'clock in the afternoon as I recall. And when I went to my car, I noticed there were people screaming around, this was after the meetings had been

01:10:05.500 - 01:10:22.120

held, but they were coming back from meetings apparently. And I was somewhat, uh, you know, surprised by this one who opened it up, what was going on because some had signs on it can't happen here, something like that. But I remember I went home. And I

01:10:22.129 - 01:10:41.169

did receive, as I recall that afternoon, a call from the development officer and the, not the development office, but the Le Estes's, I believe it was. And, uh, and he, um, was ma, uh, told me that he'd been trying to get in touch with me. And

01:10:41.180 - 01:10:57.459

I told him I was at the office all, all morning. It was a late morning, early afternoon and he told me about what had taken place. And I remember I received a call from Bill Gordon. I don't know whether it was that late that afternoon, evening

01:10:58.279 - 01:11:15.839

or on Sunday about a meeting that was going to be held on Sunday or that was held, I wasn't invited to that. So it must have been after the meeting, there was a meeting held as I recall, um, a number of professors met together on Sunday

01:11:16.750 - 01:11:33.629

and I come to think of it. I, I know I didn't know anything about it and I certainly wasn't invited to it and this is where they had decided on some questionnaire that we were gonna send out as I recall was a poll of the faculty

01:11:33.640 - 01:11:50.390

and students. How do you cap? You're not being invited to that meeting? I don't know. Uh, maybe they thought I was an envy. I don't know, or maybe I wouldn't be sympathetic because this is rather, uh, this was definitely an anti mastering group. I'm almost convinced.

01:11:51.609 - 01:12:11.069

But at any rate, the, the poll the questions that came out on Monday. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with those questions. There were two as I recall and one of them was the under the present circumstances. That was, I think the most unfair question,

01:12:11.709 - 01:12:37.279

why could ever poll, uh, ever pose? How could you possibly answer that? Yes, there was absolutely no way. In other words, you were ensuring 100% virtually 100% anti Masterson vote. And I thought that was a loaded question. And when I saw it, I refused to vote

01:12:38.200 - 01:12:56.589

because we had departmental meetings and I am professor of French as well as being dean and vice president. And at the, at my department meeting, I told the department that I absolutely refused to vote that this was an unfair question and explained why. So I didn't

01:12:56.600 - 01:13:14.609

vote at all now. And, and I know that some people didn't vote because of the same reason. It was an absolutely terribly worded question, Masterson. If he had been Jesus Christ, could not have received a yes vote in any with any clear conscience by anyone who

01:13:14.620 - 01:13:34.020

was a reasoning creature. Because under the present circumstances which were intolerable, you see, it was just like saying under these presently intolerable cir circumstances, how would you vote for this man? This is in effect what you're saying, you know, and the answer has to be no.

01:13:36.250 - 01:13:57.250

And so then you see they present the faculty and students by a 98% of whatever it was. Vote rejected. Masterson. Well, it's, I think that's as unfair as anything could be. That's why I say that it was Willy nilly unwittingly. At least there was a little

01:13:57.259 - 01:14:23.450

bit of hanky panky in that. Whoever constructed those questions was either naive or very clever. I mean, that's a, and I would prefer to avoid both those categories. All right. So when I called you on Saturday afternoon, um, uh, was he able to fill you in,

01:14:23.459 - 01:14:33.390

uh, pretty completely on a picture or was he in the, was he calling on you for an administrative decision or guidance or? No? I think he'd been trying to get in touch with me. Uh I think originally he'd been trying to get in touch with me

01:14:33.399 - 01:14:47.330

to appear at this, uh thing. I don't, I'm not quite sure. But, uh, he was, uh, gee, no, I began to wonder whether I may have put in a call to him because I was trying to get in touch with people. I was trying to find

01:14:47.339 - 01:15:00.390

out what the stuff was going on and, uh, I just couldn't get a hold of anything and I, uh, anyone and I may have put in a call to his office myself first and then he returned the call, uh, and then filled me in on what

01:15:00.399 - 01:15:15.000

was going on. I'm not really quite sure just how that happened. I would, I think I would guess that I actually initiated that by trying to get in touch with his office at one time and leave him word that I was trying to get in touch

01:15:15.009 - 01:15:28.495

with him. Did he give you any indication at that time that uh any of the board of trustees, any of Mr Allen or Mr T were uh on campus sort of watching after things. Uh I'm under the impression that the executive committee was just not functioning

01:15:28.504 - 01:15:43.859

this weekend. And what I'm, uh then my next question is, were the, who was running the place? Now? That's the trouble you have when you have a committee incidentally, uh, precisely that who's running the place? You don't know. I think actually Bill Gordon was uh in

01:15:43.870 - 01:16:02.109

the forefront of things at this point because he was, for example, uh running this show about the, the Sunday group meeting. I'm not aware that he was doing anything until that time though. And that's about 544 30 or five o'clock on Sunday. So that Mare is

01:16:02.120 - 01:16:16.939

still in town. I know, I don't know what Bill Bill Gordon was doing all this, uh, you know, Saturday, for example, I honestly don't wait a minute. He had been out of town. As I recall, he had gotten back yet. He had been out of town

01:16:16.950 - 01:16:32.640

because I remember we were debating when to have this faculty meeting. Originally, it was supposed to be held on Saturday and that's why my plans were to return Saturday morning and to attend that faculty meeting at noon and it was, while I was in Dallas that

01:16:32.649 - 01:16:45.259

I received a phone call. Oh, that's how, incidentally Blesi got into the pack two because I think I got in touch with them or they got in touch with me, uh, in Dallas, they must have gotten in touch with me and notified me that the meeting

01:16:45.270 - 01:17:06.689

had been changed that because of a leak in the press release at Chattanooga, they had found it necessary to, to, uh, bring up the meeting, shift the meeting from Saturday to Friday, the faculty meeting. Yes. Now, Bill Gordon was out of town because Chancellor Cron had

01:17:06.700 - 01:17:19.720

to, uh chair that meeting. So Bill Gordon had not come in yet on Friday. Now, I'm not sure when he did come in. Well, now I think now that his plane did over fly and he landed in Corpus Christi or someplace. So he may not have

01:17:19.729 - 01:17:34.040

gotten in until Saturday. But, uh, he should have been here by Saturday afternoon. But I honestly don't know what the, but I know on Friday he was not in because, uh, carry Krois chaired that meeting. Now, you were not in touch with Gary Cr Eyes or

01:17:34.049 - 01:17:49.790

with Herbert Allen or with Jim Taga over Saturday afternoon or evening, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. As a matter of fact, all of Sunday, I didn't tell him. No, the only one I talked to on Sunday as I recall, uh, was Bill Gordon who called me and

01:17:49.799 - 01:18:05.180

told me about this meeting. Oh, no, he told me about the, the poll that they were gonna have. That's what he told me about. So he must not have called you until Monday. That, that meeting was not until Sunday afternoon. He must have called me late

01:18:05.189 - 01:18:19.189

Sunday night, the night it was on Sunday. I received a call. It must have been after the meeting and he told me about the poll that was gonna be held. Uh, what was your reaction to this call? What was your time? Well, of course, I didn't

01:18:19.200 - 01:18:31.149

know it was on the, uh, on the ballot. Really. And, uh, I thought, well, maybe it's a good idea to find out just about how everyone feels. Uh, but I didn't know what had gone on at this meeting. I had not been invited. No, I didn't

01:18:31.160 - 01:18:43.410

know about it at all. I forget how many people were there or who was there. I know some people who were there but I mean, I wouldn't be able to tell you the, the bulk of the people who were there. Um, and I also had the

01:18:43.419 - 01:19:01.839

only calls I had were with him and I believe I had a call with the chairman of the German Department, uh, Doctor Cal. But those were the, I had no connection with the, uh, communications with the Kyro Nice or any of the members of the board.

01:19:01.850 - 01:19:26.120

Uh, or, uh, gym sims or, um, you know, none of the members of the committee, faculty or students. Oddly enough, you see, I think that they, um, because I was knocked, you know, this is like, if you're not for me, you're against me. Now, I was

01:19:26.129 - 01:19:47.890

not for them in the sense that I was not, uh, about to crucify someone whom I didn't know and crucify a person simply because someone had goofed in procedure and then repent it. Yeah, I'm a bit of an agnostic. Some people call me an atheist, but

01:19:47.899 - 01:20:04.740

I'm a lot more Christian than some people. I'm willing to accept the independence of people. So, uh they, I'm sure that they felt that I was definitely against them. And so I'm sure that this is one reason why I was not uh really brought into the

01:20:04.750 - 01:20:17.810

inner councils of the maneuvering here and there was an awful lot of maneuvering. Well, now many people have, uh, uh made the claim that they were attempting to present both sides of the issue. Now, did anyone contact you to make to speak in the college meetings,

01:20:17.819 - 01:20:34.779

for instance, on Sunday night? And I hope that that's not, we're having meetings at colleges, you know, the various colleges. But these, I heard about afterwards too. I was never invited to speak to a pier or to speak at any of those. Is, uh, are you,

01:20:34.790 - 01:20:49.819

uh, a non resident associate at any of these colleges? And you didn't get a call from any of them? Uh, is there an associate telling you that, uh, uh, wait a minute? Yeah, they did tell me there was gonna be a meeting. They didn't invite me

01:20:49.830 - 01:21:00.629

to speak. But, uh, as a matter of fact I may have gotten that from Bob Con. I don't know, but at, I didn't know that there was gonna be a meeting. Were you able to go? Uh, no, I didn't go and I forget what it, when

01:21:00.640 - 01:21:11.000

it was, it must have been Sunday night, I guess. I don't know. I think they were quite late around 930 or 10 o'clock. Yes, it was late. And that's as a matter of fact, the reason I didn't go, it may have been around 10 o'clock. As

01:21:11.009 - 01:21:24.930

a matter of fact, it was awfully late. I recall that the meeting was gonna be held and I felt that good Lord, you know, I'd have to shave and get dressed and, and as, as a matter of fact I found out about this very late as

01:21:24.939 - 01:21:41.879

I recall, somewhere around eight o'clock or so, it was already, you know, well, in the evening and I just, and I live out about 10 miles or more and I thought, oh, the heck with it because they were, you know, meetings were galore. I mean, it's

01:21:41.890 - 01:21:56.750

not as though I felt that this was gonna be a crucial meeting or they're having meetings all over the place all the time. And it's, but in any event I was never invited to, to give any comments or speak my mind and that sort of thing.

01:21:58.669 - 01:22:14.370

Well, what happened Monday then? Uh I think there was, um, at some point there began to be meetings of the department chair. This was the day they had the poll as I recall and all the departments met, did the committee sort of reactivate itself on or

01:22:14.379 - 01:22:34.479

was it still uh uh no, we acting unilaterally. That's right because we, the committee didn't meet again during the whole crisis. As a matter of fact, the committee did not meet after that meeting the day before the um Well, I don't know, it was the day

01:22:34.490 - 01:22:50.500

before, but the meeting that preceded the faculty meeting, it was a few days before because this took place maybe on Thursday. I don't know. And the faculty meeting was on a Friday May, maybe the day after, but at, at any rate, uh the committee did not

01:22:50.509 - 01:23:06.509

meet again until after the whole blow up of the Masterson affair. Did you have any contact with uh either Mr Allen or Mr Teague during this time? No, no, not at all. Were either one of them on campus at all that you heard about. I mean,

01:23:06.520 - 01:23:23.120

like Friday and Saturday, that's the whole thing. Well, yeah, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah, there must have been someone over there Saturday but they, at the meeting of the, but I'm not sure who, who was, you know that the famous meeting at the Allen Center at the

01:23:23.129 - 01:23:36.810

uh Cohen House. The only one I heard was with Doctor Masterson at that time was Dean mcenany and uh Lee Estes. Uh during some of these meetings, I'm not sure they were with him at all times while he was meeting with the students, but they were

01:23:36.819 - 01:23:50.870

there, at least for the, the after dinner meeting, they broke, I think around six and reconvened around 10. It was one of those long, having to think about it. I don't think there were any trustees at those things at that dinner, that long session that they

01:23:50.879 - 01:24:07.649

had. And I, I think probably the master would have preferred simply, um, you know, a simple confrontation with the students themselves in an effort to try to, uh, appease the students and calm them down. And of course, the presence of trustees I think would have been,

01:24:08.299 - 01:24:21.060

uh, tactless there. I mean, probably, but at least if I were the president elect, I'd rather do it alone with the students. I gonna to, but I honestly don't know because I really don't know. I had no idea what, what was going on and didn't know

01:24:21.069 - 01:24:35.950

who was there. And except that it was a press conference at this, uh, meeting of, uh, chairman on Monday. Um, is there anything that stands out in your mind at that? Uh, what was the general tone of the meeting. Were there any, uh, well, these are

01:24:35.959 - 01:24:54.720

the individual, uh, departments meeting with their, uh, let's see, there was a come to think of it and I've got now the chronology, but, uh, Gordon had called a meeting with chairman too and I don't know exactly when that was. No, I didn't go to that

01:24:54.729 - 01:25:09.729

either. There was one sometime Monday, was it Monday afternoon? It may have been Monday afternoon. I'm not sure it was in the afternoon sometime. Uh, I wasn't sure it was morning afternoon, but I know that there was one on Monday. But again, there, there, there, uh,

01:25:10.689 - 01:25:26.950

in a sense I wasn't invited to that, that was expressly to for, uh, chairman. So I, I didn't go to that just for them to turn in the votes or was there on that. Well, I know he spoke to them. Um, I honestly don't even know

01:25:26.959 - 01:25:42.790

what he said but he did speak to them, but it was, I suppose, uh, turning the votes too because they wanted to count immediately or as, as quickly as possible. And I think they did turn in their votes at that time. And Bill Gordon addressed the

01:25:42.799 - 01:26:05.709

chairman for a while or something. So, actually, I was pretty much from the time they, we met with Herb Allen and Teague with our committee. I was pretty much divorced from the whole thing, um, because I wasn't involved in all this, these, um, meetings that were

01:26:05.720 - 01:26:28.419

going on uh because the meetings you see were, were designed primarily, I suppose, let's face it to try to find a way to undo what had been done. And I personally felt had I been given the, the, the final vote that I would have just left

01:26:28.430 - 01:26:51.620

it as it was. Uh once the trustees had indicated clearly and unequivocally that they realized that they had failed and that the, the faculty and students, the faculty and student committee did have a role, a justifiable role and a real consultative role and had been slighted.

01:26:52.009 - 01:27:09.770

So by, by their admission of this, it did say that we did have this role. In other words, they weren't denying the role. They were simply saying they had goofed and hadn't uh played this uh played out this role to the, to the full extent that

01:27:09.779 - 01:27:28.669

it should have been played out. Now, I would have been probably almost as adamantly opposed as some of the rebels had the, the trustee said, look, we absolutely deny to you any role in the selection of the presidency. You see, you really don't count now that

01:27:28.680 - 01:27:53.890

I would have resented as a faculty member. But they, they didn't say that on the contrary, by their abject um let's say, and contract uh oh, apology. That's the only way you could, you could describe it. They tacitly indirectly and directly accepted the role of the

01:27:53.899 - 01:28:16.180

faculty and the students and apologized for not having lived up to it. Now, do you punish the, uh, the nominee for the mistake of someone else? You know, it's like having the, the sons, the Children for num number of generations that says in the Bible suffer

01:28:16.189 - 01:28:31.009

for the sins of the fathers. Do you punish the Children for the fault of the father? Do you punish the nominee for the fault of the trustee committee? That would have been my position. You, you accept the nominee unless you felt that he was absolutely intolerable.

01:28:31.060 - 01:28:46.330

And I couldn't honestly say that, I mean, there was nothing in my knowledge of him that made him an intolerable candidate. And what irked the devil out of me was that there were so damn many students and faculty members who couldn't possibly know Masterson who came

01:28:46.339 - 01:29:00.470

here after he had left, who were vitriolically opposed to him on what basis? They didn't know him, they didn't know him more than I did. At least I had met him at a dinner party. You know. Well, how would they know, except through hearsay? Do you

01:29:00.479 - 01:29:18.549

condemn through hearsay? You know, there are many uh ramifications to this, you know, that don't meet the eye unless you attack it from at least legalistic point of view, not legalistic, a reasonable point of view. That's the Voltaren way. I mean, is this reasonable to condemn

01:29:18.560 - 01:29:39.470

a man? Simply because someone else had goofed? Is it reasonable to condemn a man? Simply because some faculty member was violently opposed to him because masters and refused to give him $1000 once, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, it's so the students condemn him

01:29:39.479 - 01:29:52.689

because some of them didn't like the way he ran his history one incidentally. And how many students could there have been, who, who knew that because, uh, uh, don't forget he had been gone for what, how many years? Three years, at least. So only the seniors

01:29:52.700 - 01:30:06.490

could have even been in a position to say anything. But they were many of the students who were not even seniors were violently opposed to them on the basis of what some faculty members had told them. They say this is what I this is where I

01:30:06.500 - 01:30:24.700

felt that some of the faculty behaved abominably worse than students. Well, well, I felt I didn't want to be any part of that. I mean, I, I would have been in uh ready to accept him once the trustees had said we goofed. And by that admission

01:30:27.759 - 01:30:45.970

clearly established the authority of the certain level of authority of the faculty and students, the role, let's say, rather than authority in the selection process of the president. That's right. That's the best. That's very nicely put. I can see that you're you were born for that

01:30:45.979 - 01:31:05.180

job because by, by this uh apology, they legitimize the role of the faculty and students and that's in effect what most people presumably were fighting about the procedural matter Well, this was established by their apology and their legitimization if there is such a word of that.

01:31:05.540 - 01:31:28.350

So at that point, I would have left it alone. OK. Besides trustees have all through the, the centuries selected presidents without even the faculty having any consultative voice. And on the whole, they've done a darn good job. Um I'm not saying that, that we shouldn't have

01:31:28.359 - 01:31:43.790

a role in it but uh I think you could live with, you know, the chances are that he'd be that he'd be a person you could live with. Um One could almost, if one were sta uh statistically inclined point out that the life of a president

01:31:43.799 - 01:31:59.160

now is a hell of a lot shorter then. Uh Now that we have all this consultive process than it, than it was in the days when the trustees simply went out and selected a president in their own where presidents used to last 1015, 2025 3035 years.

01:31:59.330 - 01:32:15.540

And now if you find, I think the average life of a president is about four years or something like that. So, so something is going awry. I don't know whether it's uh at any rate it uh should give us pause that we don't reach a greater

01:32:15.600 - 01:32:33.080

omni simply by having more people consulted. I now, I don't mean to, to imply that we shouldn't be, you know, I'm being diabolically Voltaren here. In other words, I would have accepted the, the decision and let it go with that after all. If a person becomes

01:32:33.089 - 01:32:50.350

intolerable, you know, you can easily get rid of them. I mean, the faculty could revolt then tell the student about it and not without recourse. Sure. I mean, it's not as though, um, you know, you married the person forever and ever and ever, and even then

01:32:50.359 - 01:33:09.229

there's divorce, you mentioned a while ago that there was a behind scenes uh uh uh maneuverings going on. What uh what did you see going on? Uh Which, well, that, that's what I'm asking. What do you have in mind? Oh, well, you mean all the meetings

01:33:09.240 - 01:33:29.060

that were going on? Well, as I say, obviously, there are people who were trying to uh create a climate and that's what that question did. It created a climate in which it would be impossible from Masterson to, to survive as president. And this is in effect

01:33:29.069 - 01:33:48.109

what they did. And this question I, I think was one of the key blows that how shall I put it climaxed this uh this, these efforts to create that impossible climate for master and to survive in. And I'm sure that this was what finally, this was

01:33:48.120 - 01:34:15.709

a crowning blow. You see, it was pronounced uh via TV, radio newspaper that the students and the faculty had voted, I forget what it was, but overwhelmingly against Masterson. And indeed, he was sent a telegram. Did you know that Masterson was sent a telegram by Bill

01:34:15.720 - 01:34:34.259

Gordon, as I recall and the president of the student body announcing the poll, the results of the poll. Well, now supposing you were master it and you received this telegram saying that, uh, um, no, wait was the telegram after he resigned? It may have been after

01:34:34.270 - 01:34:48.640

he resigned. I don't know. But the, the only thing I'm aware of is that, that Scarron and Gordon gave the poll results to, uh, Alan, uh, if they, if they themselves took action to get it into Masterson's hand, I'm not aware of it. No, no. The,

01:34:48.649 - 01:35:02.259

the, the telegram I'm thinking of is they send him a telegram after he and resigned. But they gave the, you're right. They gave their results but they wanted those results immediately and they gave them to the, some of the trustees. I forget who and of course,

01:35:02.270 - 01:35:16.209

this was made public immediately. Uh I'm sure it wasn't made public by the trustees. I'm sure that, uh, I'd be willing to bet that this was made public by the forces that be or that were. Well, now the figure that actually came out in the Chronicle,

01:35:16.220 - 01:35:29.040

uh, uh, I talked to Dave Beckwith and, and he actually constructed these, this was, uh, I don't know how close they are because I don't have the results of the poll. But I don't either. It's a, but I've often wondered if that, if the Chronicle article

01:35:29.049 - 01:35:44.200

was the source of the figures that were used honestly, the results are still uh still unknown, at least the name. Well, as a matter of fact, I might add that uh the executive committee never found out what the results of the both were. I mean, officially.

01:35:44.359 - 01:36:04.529

So we may be assuming that the Chronicle article is correct. And when actually it was a, it was a sample done by one reporter, I understand it was amazingly accurate. But what, what the figures given by the Chronicle they gave um 90% against. If you combine

01:36:04.540 - 01:36:27.129

faculty and students, then the breakdown is 85 faculty. Now, was this 90% for both questions or how do they break that down with per question the second, the second? But you see this gives an, this doesn't this give a picture of overwhelming rejection that was based

01:36:27.140 - 01:36:43.069

on a false question, on a false, falsely worded or badly worded question. And the, the point as a matter of fact, now that I think about it, we had obviously meetings of the executive committee after this poll. I don't recall, I may be mistaken, but I

01:36:43.080 - 01:36:58.189

doubt that I am. We were never given official results of that pillow as far as I know they, they have not been released. And I, I don't know that Mr Allen actually gave Doctor Masterson the uh he may have but uh on the other hand, but

01:36:58.200 - 01:37:14.060

I'm sure, I wonder if he really would, but I, I doubt that he would, I doubt that the trustees would have told him that. But I'm quite sure that this was uh already abroad through the uh communications media. Because I can assure you, even though I'm

01:37:14.069 - 01:37:30.899

not positive that these forces that were in the process of collecting this data didn't collect the data for the exclusive eyes of the trustees that they wanted. The, this brooded about and uh to be made public because this is what this was their weapon. You don't

01:37:30.910 - 01:37:49.259

sharpen a knife in order to, to bury it in the ground and, and forget about it. The corpse. That's a bad analogy. But that's, it might have. Well, at any rate. Well, I, you mentioned that you're getting sort of, uh could I just ask you uh

01:37:49.270 - 01:38:03.799

one more thing and uh what, what, what do you see as the ramifications of this whole episode? Uh I know that there's been a reorganization that there is now a vice presidential level. Uh um Did, I don't know whether this is related to the Masterson uh

01:38:04.359 - 01:38:21.799

case or not? Uh But uh you mean the vice president, the creation of vice presidencies and things like that? No, I think that uh in effect, uh well, there are two, uh I suppose facets to this in the first place they wanted to, uh, you see

01:38:21.810 - 01:38:43.490

by the creation of, of um Van Denver's acting president in effect, Bill Gordon was demoted uh because he had more or less assumed the leadership role. I might add somewhat unjustly because he was simply a member of the executive committee. But that's beside the point uh

01:38:43.500 - 01:39:01.370

attend. Right. He was in the limelight as the chairman of the committee. And so he was uh was in a sense demoted and I think they had decided to make him a vice president in order to appease the or, you know, wound uh to salve over

01:39:01.379 - 01:39:15.649

the wounded pride. And um when I got back from a trip to Michigan, I, I left that morning. It was a Sunday morning. I remember and I was going to a meeting for about 55 days or so. And uh I had a two hour meeting with

01:39:15.660 - 01:39:36.290

Malcolm Levitt about this, but this uh Vandever being made a acting president and uh making Bill Gordon vice president. And I, he asked me what I thought I to survive, you know, when I had left, uh I came back, I remember late on about five, late

01:39:36.299 - 01:39:48.839

one night, about five days later and I was told to call Malcolm Lovin immediately, it was late at night and I thought this was silly to call him this late at night. But I did and he announced to me that he had also made me vice

01:39:48.850 - 01:40:06.669

president. But now frankly, this came as a bolt out blue because I certainly didn't care about whether I was vice president or not. But IFI discovered from Van De Wet that in effect. He had requested that I also be made Vice President Long and Bill Gordon.

01:40:07.200 - 01:40:25.439

And then, uh also because Vandever is more of a scholar than an administrator, or at least he didn't want to be burdened with a lot of administrative detail. He wanted uh two more vice presidencies created. Well, he wanted one really, this was the Alan Chapman, but

01:40:25.450 - 01:40:38.240

he felt as long as the, the other members of the executive committee were being made, vice presidents should be made vice president. Otherwise this would look bad, you know, that sort of thing. I'm just assuming no one told me this. But, you know, this is just

01:40:38.339 - 01:40:47.959

general nature, a reasonable conjecture. And so he was made vice president too. And Alan Chapman, uh whom uh acting president, vice acting president.