00:00:03.340 - 00:00:17.710

All right, so today is Wednesday, December 14, 2022. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Mr. Swapan Dhairyawan for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice. So, to start from the very beginning, could you tell us where and when you were born?

00:00:19.530 - 00:00:38.200

Uh, so, good morning to you, Emily, and this is Swapan Dhairyawan. Of course, I was born in Mumbai, India, and December the 5th, 1965. It's been [laughs] just my birthday, just a week ago. So, yes, anything else apart from that?

00:00:38.980 - 00:00:55.000

Nice, happy–happy late birthday. So, could you describe the household that you grew up in? Uh, sure. So, I grew up in a nice, decent family. Um, a–a huge joint family, I would say.

00:00:55.720 - 00:01:08.230

It's a joint family in the sense that it's a family in which we have many people, many families living together. We had a big bungalow, which is a big–big house, in the heart of the city of Bombay.

00:01:09.500 - 00:01:25.620

My grandfather used to be a renowned medical doctor, and he had his own practice. And he had his six sons, two daughters. And all his sons, and my uncles, and my parents, we all lived

00:01:25.620 - 00:01:40.610

together as a joint family. And we had extended family as well, three other uncles on his side, my grandfather's side, they also lived in the same bungalow. So, we had almost, like, I would say, 38 rooms,

00:01:41.670 - 00:01:59.660

and we were almost 50 plus people l-living in the same house. [EM: Wow, that's really amaz—] I grew up–grew up in a [laughs] joint family, which is very rare to be seen nowadays, even—over here, it's impossible, but back home as well, it's not so very

00:02:00.370 - 00:02:09.250

a happening kind of a thing. Yeah, that's–that's amazing. But it sounds very fun as well. And it's nice to grow up in, like, a very large, supportive, community.

00:02:10.200 - 00:02:22.010

It is fun, I would say. It has its pluses and minuses. But the–the positives are much more impactful in the making of a person.

00:02:23.470 - 00:02:42.920

Because it brings you to the rule of coordination, to understand, to be together, and to be able to accept viewpoints. That's what it is. And everyone comes from a different kind of a background, because though the sons are the pare—my—parents are of the same father,

00:02:43.490 - 00:02:55.620

the wives comes from different households. So, it's always the thing that they bring two baggages with them: one from their mother's side and one from their father's side. So that being the case, it's always kind of a new thing.

00:02:55.620 - 00:03:09.070

It's not only the thinking, it's the customs, it's the rituals, it's the kind of, you know, their own fancies, their–their–their way to do things, kind of a thing. So, it comes together, kind of.

00:03:10.840 - 00:03:26.270

Yeah, that's really good to hear, sounds like a very unique environment. So, do you have any, like, favorite memories of living in the bungalow? Many, many such memories. It’s–it— [laughs] Growing up as

00:03:27.880 - 00:03:42.680

a–as a kid over there with cousins, there were 12 cousins, we were all together. Every uncle had two each kind of a thing, so most likely that was the number. So, it used to be birthdays, parties—it's not

00:03:42.880 - 00:03:57.020

only that, but it used to be—sometimes a sorrow-sorrowful things which would happen, we were together. It was the–the festivals that we did, we were together. It were the school trips that we were together.

00:03:58.000 - 00:04:17.300

It used to be breakfast and lunches, which we used to be together, kind of a thing. The–the only differential thing I would say and unique in our family was my grandfather was quite a visionary, I would say, because he–he knew what it takes.

00:04:17.300 - 00:04:33.150

So he had made sure, right, when my—all my uncles and my parents were already married, he made sure that everyone has a kitchen of their own. So it's usually—that is something different, because everyone has their own kind of palate, kind of a thing.

00:04:33.480 - 00:04:49.110

Because all ladies bring their own palate from their side of the thing, so that should not be disturbed. So we used to exchange our foods, we used to have things going around all over, but they had their own kitchen, they used to cook for their own family unit, kind of.

00:04:50.890 - 00:05:02.710

Yeah, that's true, everybody has, like, different tastes. Do you ever miss—like, now being in the US, do you ever miss, like, living in that bungalow and having, like, so many people around you? I do miss it.

00:05:02.770 - 00:05:19.910

I do miss it, because I lived in the bungalow till almost 24 years of my life, kind of a thing, till I was almost a graduate and post-graduate, almost. I lived in that house, before I came to this country, of course. So, there are fond memories over there, in which we—it–it–it–it

00:05:20.690 - 00:05:40.220

will be—I–I will—if I had to do it again, all over again, I would do it all over again as well. Do you ever go back and, like, visit the bungalow? Uh, okay, so the bungalow was eventually demolished, and—because you know how the

00:05:40.260 - 00:05:57.480

families grow eventually, and everyone with their only one or two rooms, it's—when–when the kids grow up and the families grow up, it's not feasible. So eventually what happened was the bungalow was eventually demolished. And then apartments came up, the high-rise apartments came up, and then everyone lived

00:05:57.480 - 00:06:11.810

on a apartment of their own. So I do go back to–to the homeland, of course. Initially, it used to be once in three years or something like that. I have—most likely, in the last 22 years, I have been at least 10 times back in India,

00:06:12.230 - 00:06:24.500

kind of a thing. Because of the COVID, I haven't traveled for almost four plus years now. Oh, I hope you get to visit soon. [SD laughs] Yeah, I also wanted

00:06:24.500 - 00:06:37.570

to—so, I wanted to move on a bit to education. So, where did you attend college? And what was your field of study? So, growing up, I did go to a school which was

00:06:38.280 - 00:06:50.030

very close to our home place. We used to walk around, kind of a thing, 10 minutes away. So it was an English-medium school. So we gr—we studied in English, though our vernacular languages, Marathi

00:06:50.030 - 00:07:02.580

and Hindi, were part of our curriculum. And we spoke at—spoke those languages at home. But the medium instruction was in English, of course. So we did graduate and post-graduate in English, of course.

00:07:02.880 - 00:07:16.750

So the school that I went to was BPM High School. And it was a coed school, of course. So, in–in India, the graduation is at 10th grade, usually. So, it's not like 12th grade over here.

00:07:17.320 - 00:07:28.910

So that is how it is. And then eventually, you go on to college. And I've been to a college, which is NM College in Vile Parte, that-that's also maybe about 10, 12 miles away from our home.

00:07:30.030 - 00:07:46.750

So that I did in commerce, basically. So right from the start, I would say I was interested in commerce, economics, or accounting, kind of a thing. I remember one incident, which is—maybe I might have been in

00:07:46.750 - 00:08:02.960

the sixth grade or whatever. And my cousins who used to be elder to me, they used to plan that after tenth, “I'll be—okay, now I'm in ninth or in tenth, I'm going to go to this college, I'm going to apply for this school, or whatever that is,” kind of a thing.

00:08:02.960 - 00:08:20.670

And I used to hear those kind of a thing, and those all digest-digested to me. So, when I passed out on my 10th grade, with distinction, of course, so, I knew that I would be just going to one college, which I had made up my mind, which was one of the premier

00:08:22.480 - 00:08:38.770

colleges in–in our area, in the suburb area. So, I had just brought—and at that time, you need to take admission, you had to apply by going over there early in the mornings, in the long lines, and wait over there to get the applications and everything.

00:08:39.580 - 00:08:54.150

And kids used to do that as tenth graders, you know, with lot of stress. But I knew that I'll just get my admission over there. So I had just applied in that one particular college. And–and then [laughs] so I made sure that I—that was my dream, right from my

00:08:54.150 - 00:09:07.810

sixth grade, when I used to hear it from my cousins, said, "Okay, that's a good commerce college." Because most of my old cousins, they were going into medicine, engineering, or anything else. My field was totally different. I just wanted to be in [laughs] accounting.

00:09:08.640 - 00:09:25.310

So, did my bachelor's there after my master's, of course, from the Bombay University, which is one of the premier institutions, right, from the 18th century in India, of course. And then I did my cost accounting, which is a professional degree, as well, kind of a

00:09:25.310 - 00:09:40.830

thing, which is similar and equivalent to how a CPA is over here. But that is more kind of a focus on the industry and the manufacturing, kind of thing, because it's called CMA: that is the Cost and Management Accountants, that's what it is. So that was my education field.

00:09:43.220 - 00:10:02.590

Nice, and how did you—like, what motivated you to go into commerce? Um, I would say I–I–I might have been good with numbers. And I always wanted to be something different, because there was always to be a

00:10:02.590 - 00:10:13.920

pressure among the Indian community that, okay, you can be in medicine or in engineering. Those were the only fields; science was the only fields. Or, you go for the arts.

00:10:14.660 - 00:10:31.580

They—in–in– in—since 2000, everything has changed in India. In those times, we used to just have those three areas, that you go into science, you go into commerce, or you go into arts. So the top–top 90 percen-cent of it, more than distinction (?), always used to be in

00:10:31.580 - 00:10:46.410

the science and the engineering and the medicine. Then the next batch used to be going into the commerce. And the rest remaining just had to accept the arts, which is mainly, I think, psychology, sociology, and all those types of things.

00:10:46.900 - 00:11:01.910

But for me, commerce—because maybe I was good with numbers, and eventually I thought that that might be a line in which I can be able to make–make some good standing. Because I was not into science, absolutely.

00:11:01.910 - 00:11:14.400

Because I used to be s-scared of all those formulas. Chemistry, I was okay. But physics and bio was the worst kind of thing for me. I never used to draw any of the pictures.

00:11:14.810 - 00:11:26.900

My friend used to make all those efforts in my journal. [laughs] I would be frank in that matter. [laughs] Yeah, I'm taking physics right now, and I also–I also don't like it at

00:11:26.900 - 00:11:41.880

all. [SD laughs] So do you—did you participate in, like, any extracurriculars or jobs or clubs during college? Yes, I used to, because I–I used to—I do a—I used to do a lot of reading then, as well.

00:11:42.290 - 00:11:56.110

And I used to do a lot of dramatics. I used to play in–in–in dramas and everything like that. So that used to be extracurricular activity, but that d-didn't use to be part of the school–school curriculum.

00:11:56.110 - 00:12:10.160

That used to always to be kind of an extra activity during the midterm breaks, or in the summer breaks, kind of a thing. So, it was like that over there. It was not like a–a–a thing which you can pursue

00:12:10.670 - 00:12:25.410

it as a–as a profession, kind of a thing, but that was something that interested me and—hobbies of me. The other thing which I used to love was to do some, like, cooking and everything like that, I used to enjoy that.

00:12:26.000 - 00:12:38.720

And I still feel that it's relaxing sometimes. I always used to say that if I was not supposed to be getting my good grades in commerce, I would have landed up in the Sophia College, which is for catering college, kind of a thing [laughs].

00:12:40.430 - 00:12:58.090

Do you have like a favorite dish that you like to cook? Uh, I think any dishes which are vegetarian, I can make those kind of a thing. And I can see and look and make those kinds of a thing. And it's–it's just passed on through recipes, kind of a thing, in the family as

00:12:58.330 - 00:13:15.250

well. And sometimes my mother says that, okay—sorry, my–my wife says that, "This thing that you made, it tastes exactly like what your mom used to make," or your this particular Auntie used to make, or something like that, she would remember that that's the similar taste kind of.

00:13:15.610 - 00:13:29.040

And it was just by seeing them, because it used to be joint family, right? So we just used to observe. We never used to do anything at that time, typically. It used to be—if we had to go into kitchen, it used to be just for fun, making—maybe just

00:13:29.040 - 00:13:39.320

to make some noodles, Maggi noodles or something like that. But never for the actual cooking. It just came up later on, kind of a thing. I see. Yeah, that's really cool.

00:13:39.320 - 00:13:56.020

Like, I feel like food is a great way to, like, pass down memories, and it's kind of like a form of love as well. [SD laughs] Also in college, did you have any professors or, like, mentors in general who left a lasting impact on your

00:13:56.020 - 00:14:10.120

life? Uh, good question. I am just thinking, I would say there would be a bunch of them, I would say, during my school years, who were formative in my school career, I would say.

00:14:11.240 - 00:14:26.430

And I–I still remember them. Some of them have passed away, kind of a thing, but we used to make effort, when we used to live in Bombay, not after coming over here, to actually meet them on occasions or something like that.

00:14:26.660 - 00:14:43.780

Those used to be my English teacher, one Ms. D’mello. I remember one of my history and geography teachers, Ms. Kothare, and during my school years in—and growing up in college, I would still be influenced with one of my

00:14:45.430 - 00:15:05.280

accounting majors, who used to be a master in tax and accounting, Kishnadada. So, we used to revere them, because they–they have the curriculum books written under their name, and their way of style of teaching was so simplified, because I still remember that if you know three basic

00:15:05.280 - 00:15:19.420

rules in accounting, you can do anything, kind of a thing. It's just, you need to know those three basic principles. That's all. And are you still in touch with any of your friends or mentors from college?

00:15:20.130 - 00:15:39.630

Oh, yeah. I'm in touch with—because of the WhatsApp, you know how the things have come out too, social medias and everything, so we are in touch. Almost every day that you open up the phone in the morning, there are 800 messages [laughs] kind of a thing.

00:15:39.990 - 00:15:56.550

And that can be as silly as "Good morning" or some planning to meet somewhere, or going out on a hike, or a trip, or anything like that. It can be a birthday wish, it can be some situation with a family, anything like that. So there are two or three such groups that I'm basically part of.

00:15:56.550 - 00:16:14.370

One is my school group, which is our—"1981," that's what we call it, the Marbles '81 groups, kind of a thing. And there are, what, maybe about 60 or 65 of us, because we used to have two–two divisions who

00:16:15.280 - 00:16:28.360

graduated in that year, 1981, from that school, kind of a thing. So, we are connected that way. And the other is my college group, of course, and in that college group, it's about seven or eight of us.

00:16:28.360 - 00:16:43.730

So we were so very close, kind of a thing. So that group, I've—and both these groups, we do meet whenever I go to India or something like that. But otherwise than that, during the COVID, we did used to have some kind of

00:16:43.770 - 00:16:59.200

Zoom calls or something like that once in a while, because it was so–so very a socially unprecedented kind of a thing. So that's why we used to have those. Nice, it's–it's so good to hear that you still keep in touch with them.

00:17:01.120 - 00:17:20.400

So, what prompted you to immigrate from India to the US, and specifically to Houston, in 1999? Okay, so the–the story behind that is–is my wife, of course [laughs]. So, she—I was with an arranged marriage, as most of

00:17:21.190 - 00:17:34.000

the [laughs] Indian marriages would be. It's not love marriage, it—love happens after marriage, that's what we call [laughs]. So it was an arranged marriage. How it happened was: she used to be living over here, and she was going to a

00:17:34.270 - 00:17:45.750

sc—college and everything like that. And she didn't want to complete her degree over here. She came back to India at one point of time. And then one of my—our—her sisters

00:17:46.180 - 00:18:01.120

just mentioned to one of my aunts that they might be starting looking for a suitable boy. And my aunt said, "Okay, I have my nephew. He's already set in a good corporate job and everything like that.

00:18:01.120 - 00:18:08.570

He has done his master's. Why don't we just meet briefly?" And that's how we met. And we got engaged.

00:18:08.570 - 00:18:20.860

We did some courting. After that, to marriage and everything. And with that came the period of transition. And the transition is, since she was on green card, she was coming back and

00:18:20.880 - 00:18:38.570

forth. She couldn't live in India for unprecedented time, so till the time—the immigration in those points of time used to take almost four to five years for everything to do the right way. And the right way is how we came up over here in 1999, when my

00:18:38.710 - 00:18:54.950

things happened, and my papers processed, I came down over here. And Houston was selected because she was in Houston. And it was a chain thing, I would say, because her uncle, who came to this country in 1967, is how—he

00:18:55.410 - 00:19:10.350

was a good architect to whether he kept on moving all across the country. But eventually he settled in Houston, and he sponsored his sister, which is my wife's mother. And that's how the link got started, and eventually we came over.

00:19:10.860 - 00:19:27.440

And since Houston was the base for the city, and we thought that this is the city which has the best of the temperates, climates, best of the culture, and you find everything that we can't find back home.

00:19:28.450 - 00:19:44.290

We are the same–same–same, I would say, the latitude of what we are [laughs]. Um, so, like, when you first arrived in the US, do you remember feeling any, like, cultural

00:19:44.290 - 00:19:58.040

shocks or challenges? [laughs] It used to be a culture shock, because I came towards end of–end of 1999, so it was a holiday season.

00:19:58.040 - 00:20:09.990

It was different. It was vibrant. But the days used to be bleak. And today's Houston is totally different from what it was in 1999. There wasn't so much of development, I would say.

00:20:10.440 - 00:20:29.110

It has happened in the last 15 years, which was there at that time. Plus, as new immigrants, you always want to go back. I remember first six to eight months, it was, like, calling back my parents and home and everything, that every—once every—twice every week,

00:20:29.110 - 00:20:47.340

kind of a thing. And it was like, "Where have I landed?" Though my wife is here and my in-laws are here, but in spite of that, you feel different. And plus, you come up to a country in which you don't know what–what it will take. My wife was clever, she knew what exactly I should be doing.

00:20:47.500 - 00:21:02.060

She’s—because I was in accounting, and she said, "Yes, you have to be a CPA." And she said, "No, you're not taking any odd jobs. We will sustain till that time." And it was not the case that she was earning a whole lot.

00:21:02.200 - 00:21:17.980

Maybe she was just over minimum wages, because she was in her new job, in a banking institution for just about six months. But she said, "No, you stay on, hang on. We will–we will pass this as well." And

00:21:19.610 - 00:21:32.220

kept on looking up for jobs. But holiday season, 1999, remember, Y2K was coming up, no one was hiring, except for any-anything in the tech industry. And here I am with a master's and accounting degree.

00:21:32.600 - 00:21:48.630

Where–where could I get a stepping stone? Somehow, however, my luck’s changed. And I got a job interview. I did bunch of interviews, I would say, but those were unrelated, not in my field, and my

00:21:48.630 - 00:22:02.150

wife didn't want me to take any of them. I did some interviews, because—to a recruiting agency that I tried to do, start recruiting agency, but just to get the feel of it, what exactly to expect, kind of a thing.

00:22:03.080 - 00:22:23.620

And eventually, I did get the job of my choice—not of my choice, but of my field, I would say, in–in a CPA firm, of course, in the year 2000, January 17, I won't–I won't forget it, of twenty—2000, which

00:22:23.620 - 00:22:44.450

is with a CPA firm, which is largest Indo-Pak firm, which is, I call, H R Shaikh and Company in–in Houston. That's really great to hear, like, the whole journey. What is it like being now, like, a founding partner at C—like, a founding partner at MD

00:22:44.450 - 00:22:59.980

and–MD and Associates? So, that journey also, as I mentioned, it–it–it isn't easy, because getting the feel of it, because—accounting might be the same, tax laws are different, okay?

00:23:00.180 - 00:23:07.280

Legal things are different. Communications are different. So we had to pass through that. I had to build that up, kind of a thing.

00:23:07.780 - 00:23:25.570

And that was my only first job with this country, with H R Shaikh and Company, started down the ladder, and eventually, within three and a half years, I was managing almost quarter million of their revenues in more than couple of hundred

00:23:28.230 - 00:23:44.840

clients, kind of a thing, and reaching out and reporting to a partner, and everything like that. So, during that span, at the age of 30, in your mid 30s, can you imagine getting started again and

00:23:45.030 - 00:24:02.450

thinking, "Oh, gosh, I have to study again. I have to pass my CPA exam." It's not easy, with a new job, in which you have tireless hours that you have to work for. And tax season is always from January to November, it keeps on going, kind

00:24:02.650 - 00:24:21.360

of a thing. So, that—and exams during that time used to be only two times in a year: in the month of May and in the month of November. So, doing the chores at home, having a family, and of course the job, and doing the CPA exam.

00:24:21.840 - 00:24:40.310

How do we do that kind of a thing? I flunked. I flunked couple of times, and I–I—though we know the concept, we have been extremely well to do, understood everything, but putting it out, what was needed, was missing.

00:24:41.060 - 00:24:59.490

I don't know, maybe couple of months here or there, and the passing grade was 75. And at that point of time, you had to write in paper and pencil. It was not a proctor-based online examination. And if you were to see my handwriting, it is the worst handwriting you would see, ‘cause

00:24:59.490 - 00:25:15.130

I—the ducks and the frogs all over my paper. That's what used to be. And I still remember one of the—my last—I said that, "Okay, this is the last time I'm going to take the examination." And that's the year that I took the 2003 examination.

00:25:17.160 - 00:25:32.010

My mother-in-law who lived with us, she said, "Swapan, possibly, your handwriting is so bad. No one wants to read it. Why don't you do one thing?" And we used to write it in pencil, okay? "Why don't you write everything in caps?

00:25:32.840 - 00:25:48.380

Instead of—" and maybe I followed that advice, and then maybe I passed out. And then [laughs] it's–it's a journey since then. So, after passing the exam, the thing happened

00:25:48.930 - 00:26:07.380

was that to be on practice, or to be partnered with the same firm, but some of the–the–the things did not gel. Didn't want to go through the details of that, but it didn't gel at that point, and two of us from the same firm who were so close together,

00:26:08.610 - 00:26:27.500

my partner, Irfan Moosa, and myself, we quit that job on the first day of the year 2004. And we said, "No, we are starting a practice." And then just left from there. Nothing in hand, no–no retirement accounts, no much bank

00:26:27.500 - 00:26:42.530

balances, just spouse—Pallavi said, my wife said, and [unintelligible] the only positive thing that both of us had was he was also a CPA. I didn't even have my CPA degree because the results came in the month of February at that

00:26:42.530 - 00:26:59.550

point, but I just—[laughs] so what happened was just both of us just had two credit cards. And I would say that that was a big thing to get started, to have that kind of a investment, that we had to have software,

00:27:01.400 - 00:27:20.370

the laptops—not even a laptop, we didn't have laptops, window, this—those are the big machines that we had in the year 2004. And then a space, of course, that's how we founded MD & Associates. Wow, that must have been a really scary step to take, but I'm glad it worked out well.

00:27:21.080 - 00:27:41.020

And I also read that you expanded the business to Dallas and Spring, Texas? So eventually, my–my partner, who–who was born and raised over here, of course, and he had moved from California, and then eventually to Dallas, because of his families and everything like that.

00:27:41.020 - 00:27:57.460

And he had come down to Houston, and taken up this job in Houston in my same firm, that we've worked together for almost two years. And then, eventually, since his family was in Dallas, he said that, "Eventually, I will have to move to Dallas." And his wife was a dentist, of course, she wanted to do her

00:27:57.460 - 00:28:08.500

schooling up over there as well. So, he moved to Dallas, and he said, "Okay, we'll set up an office in Dallas." And then he became the partner and still works over there. It's a–it's a CPA over there.

00:28:09.090 - 00:28:24.050

And then in the initial, formative years, I used to visit every month over there. And—because being a senior partner, sometimes what happens is we had to go through some clients and everything like that, we have to go through some planning things and everything, so that needs to happen.

00:28:25.320 - 00:28:41.840

And my–my partner is a great person, fabulous person, great in marketing and advertising. But when it comes to the technical thing, he will say, "Swapan, you have to come in." So, that was how it used to be. [laughs] So with that—that was in 2006 that we were expanded

00:28:41.860 - 00:28:59.950

to Dallas, and eventually in 2008, the thing came up was our—2004, when we started this practice in Houston, eventually the—it—I would say it was just a word of mouth, and God willing, we just didn't have to advertise. We did not have to put in a whole lot of money into

00:29:01.800 - 00:29:14.820

any media kind of a thing. But it was just the word of mouth and being in the community. That's what helped. And in 2008, somehow over there were—one of my clients said, "Okay, I'll be starting up office over here.

00:29:15.200 - 00:29:29.670

Let's share, and let's build up over there." Because we had a bunch of clients in north–north of Houston, that is Spring, Conroe, Woodlands, and all those neighborhoods in 290 and 249. So, that's how we expanded it up over there.

00:29:30.920 - 00:29:45.930

I used to be visiting and going over there once a week, every week, till almost COVID hit. And after that, everything has changed. And now really you don't require to be present in the case, in those offices. Most of the things are happening on a remote basis.

00:29:46.640 - 00:30:03.380

But my—this office, Houston office, is a regular office, which is always a physical presence that we have. Nice, yeah, COVID has definitely changed a lot about, like, how we work and you can–you

00:30:03.380 - 00:30:19.600

can [SD: Protocols, yeah.] Yeah, so speaking of community, I saw that you're active in multiple community organizations? And you've also received awards, such as one for Distinguished Community Service from the Houston CPA Society.

00:30:20.110 - 00:30:40.840

So, can you speak more on your involvement in serving your community? That I would go back and say that that has been ingrained, maybe in the DNA or whatever. My pare—grandparents used to be in the freedom struggles and everything like that in India, when it used to happen, before 1947.

00:30:41.520 - 00:30:58.460

My parents, my mother herself, she was a great social worker. She used to be working on a lot of community issues and things, kind of a thing—she was a teacher, also, by profession. But for me, that was ingrained since then.

00:30:58.690 - 00:31:13.910

But being in your early 20s or late 20s, we didn't have those things that we were able to display it back home over there, except for some of the clubs that I used to volunteer and do some stuff, kind of a thing.

00:31:13.910 - 00:31:31.320

But eventually, after coming out over here, I–I was amazed in which people do so much things in the community. And I watched that for my initial first three to four years. And I—it–it blew me.

00:31:31.790 - 00:31:52.760

It blew me, seeing people so–so very giving their—we call it (?). That is their–their mind, their heart, and their money in the causes. So that—having seen, I got involved in my first association, which I would say is India Culture Center, the

00:31:52.840 - 00:32:10.780

ICC, which is a premier organization in Houston, formed in 1973, almost fifty years now. So, that was the institution that I got started with, who has been pivotal in making lots of differences in the community, for putting up the Mahatma Gandhi

00:32:10.780 - 00:32:27.410

District in Hillcroft, in having the Mahatma Gandhi statue in Hermann Park, and having built up the India House. So that being the case, this ICC I got involved in, since—just as a volunteer, that one of the presidents over there, Ramesh Cheri, he said,

00:32:27.410 - 00:32:42.360

"Okay, why don't you just volunteer and just take care of my books, the entity, and everything." I said, "Okay, I'll just volunteer, I will do whatever is needed." That summer I got started. And eventually, I got roped in, how and when, I don't know, but eventually,

00:32:43.020 - 00:33:00.680

started that position since, and took over all the different positions as well. And then one after the other—another, various institutions and organizations I got involved in because of the culture, that was the first thing, then the language, because where there's culture, there is language.

00:33:01.160 - 00:33:20.210

Then, eventually, some–some organizations, which are educational-based organization, upon which foreign studies, then some religious organizations as well. That's how I got involved. I don't know this thing—and–and of course, finally, in the Indo American Chamber of Commerce, which is my passion, is partly because

00:33:21.800 - 00:33:41.740

I am—I always say that small and midsize businesses are the backbone of this country, because that's how they make this country big. Because there is—every-everything has—if there is an effort, there is a success, that's what it is.

00:33:42.180 - 00:33:57.330

So, my Chamber, I got involved since 2012, have been leading and working on a lot of fronts in that. And COVID also changed most of the stuff. And in that period, I did a lot of community outreach work, and all those things, kind of a thing.

00:33:57.990 - 00:34:18.110

So I don't know when and how we'd got new test that yes, the–the Houston Society did give me a Distinguished Community Service Award in 2019. As recently as August of 2022, just this August, the India Culture Center recognized me

00:34:18.320 - 00:34:33.910

as the Lifetime Achievement Award, which I said, "Oh, gosh, lifetime? [laughs] So, what does that mean?" [laughs]. That’s about it. Congra-congra-congratulations for that.

00:34:34.260 - 00:34:48.670

It's really impressive. Yeah, so as someone so, like, closely involved with your community, what do you think is the most effective way to keep Indian American community members engaged and informed about, like, whatever activities are going on?

00:34:50.290 - 00:35:09.610

The-there are different fronts of that, because, let me tell you, the Indo-American community is quite educated, literate, they come with good—some–some stories are always there, that people come with $8 in their

00:35:09.610 - 00:35:27.820

pocket, nothing over here, and they have this unbelievable successes, kind of a thing. But I would still say the engagement process works on different fronts, because the people are still very listening, they are

00:35:28.440 - 00:35:48.470

conservative in their process, their thought process, they–they are God-fearing, they are—I would say the–the way in which the message is being disseminated, that goes through two-two ways (inaudible). It can go through the social organizations, it can go through the

00:35:48.470 - 00:36:00.440

regional organization, because there are state based organizations (inaudible), because India is a culmination of 27 states. So there are different languages just spoken. So the messages go through that.

00:36:00.790 - 00:36:15.360

The–the–the messages could go through the chambers, the commerce and everything like that, because if it is related to–to–to the facilities, grants, or the—in COVID, we saw the PPPs and all those things. We did a lot of outreach in that.

00:36:15.360 - 00:36:31.700

We did a lot of seminars in that. We did a lot of communication in that, so that people are not left behind, kind of a thing, and taken the opportunity which is needed.

00:36:31.700 - 00:36:51.310

Nice. And if I could move on to some questions on the Little India District, so I understand that you have a lot of knowledge on that district in Houston, could you give, like, a very brief overview of its history up until now? So, what I would say is Little India is—the district

00:36:51.950 - 00:37:09.390

that we now call Mahatma Gandhi District now—that is the small neighborhood which is happening area between 59, Hillcroft, and Harwin, max up till the Westpark toll road, and the other side being the 59. That's the small neighborhood that we call it.

00:37:10.140 - 00:37:29.900

Maybe not more than two miles radius. But that is the concentration of Indo-American businesses and food stores, clothing, jewelry, you name it. Wholesale, retail, anything like that, you'll find up over there.

00:37:30.810 - 00:37:48.050

So the–the community started building over there way back in the 1970s, kind of a thing, because the first immigrants, I would say, would be the–the-the engineering people and the students who came up to the–to the U of H.

00:37:48.850 - 00:38:06.300

And that's the community who formed the ICC and everything like that. And they eventually had ICC's house across in that southwest neighborhood area, (?) house in the Hillcroft area. So with that being the case, that neighborhood achieved the traffic

00:38:06.930 - 00:38:19.710

and people's (inaudible) used to be over there because we get everything over there. That's how it used to happen. So eventually, ICC, in 2004 actually, unveiled

00:38:22.500 - 00:38:37.460

the Mahatma Gandhi statue in Hermann Park. Which was—the–the statue itself was a donation from the government of India, and the square and the land which was given by the state of Houston, of course, so much had gone into that.

00:38:37.780 - 00:38:57.840

The plan was—since then, since 2004, the plan was to have the—this small district, which has maximum—not only ownership, or—it can be ownership, it can be closeness, because people had a vested interest in that neighborhood, to have the district mean something like Mahatma Gandhi

00:38:57.900 - 00:39:19.190

District. But there were always a lot of negatives to that also, because people—though Mahatma Gandhi is the national figure, a global figure for that matter, and there is hardly anything, but–but there are some things which always people will come up when it has to be naming.

00:39:19.880 - 00:39:36.740

When that came to the head, we always used to—the–the–the–the rules of the city and the ordinances and everything were based on X number of percentage, if you get those approval letters or those kinds of things, then we can move ahead and do all those kinds of things.

00:39:37.100 - 00:39:54.240

That's how we—the roots were. So eventually, we were shelving that matter for years to get there, till the year 2010 is when it happened, that that neighborhood, we had 32 sign toppers right from

00:39:54.290 - 00:40:13.740

59 till Westpark, and on from Harwin till the other end of Hillcroft, kind of a thing, till Fondren, actually, in which that entire district was named as Mahatma Gandhi District and unveiled by Annise Parker at that point of time, January 15, 2020—ah, sorry, 2010

00:40:14.410 - 00:40:28.850

is what the year was. So that was done at that point of time. And it was a great moment for our people and their community, because that was a longstanding dream, that this Little India be

00:40:29.580 - 00:40:49.610

caused—named after Mahatma Gandhi, kind of a thing. And eventually, we kept up the momentum going, and since 59 and Hillcroft was the gateway to that neighborhood, we wanted to have a landmark up also over there.

00:40:50.050 - 00:41:08.580

So in 2015, our fruits came to fruition, and we were able to have a landmark which is—we have a big Mahatma Gandhi plaque and opening at that area, just at that intersection. That opening happened on the–the–the 15th of August,

00:41:10.020 - 00:41:24.420

2015, kind of a thing. So that was also done through the ICC, and the community helped a lot on it as well. And we were able to achieve it. That's really cool. Were you, like, personally involved in the naming of the

00:41:24.440 - 00:41:40.360

District at all? Yeah, actually, the District—2010, I was the president of ICC. But much of the head work was done in the year 20—2009 also, so I would always give it—the credit to my predecessor, my

00:41:40.720 - 00:41:57.320

previous president, Keshu Patel, the late Keshu Patel, who used to be my mentor, and he passed away in 2010, and I had a troubled time after that [laughs] just... Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that.

00:41:57.860 - 00:42:14.050

But yeah, it sounds like it's a really thriving area right now. What do you think has made that district so, like, economically successful? Uh, I would say there is a continuity over there.

00:42:15.100 - 00:42:30.530

That there—I have seen businesses up over there which have been running for 20, 20, 30, 30 plus years, kind of a thing. It's not the thing that—and, you know, the stickiness in the Indian community is very strong, I would say.

00:42:31.300 - 00:42:48.170

Actually, the SBA, the Small Business Administration, says almost 33% of businesses fail in the first year. 60% of businesses have gone out in the first five years of their lifespan. But having this kind of continuity in that market,

00:42:49.780 - 00:43:08.140

in which you have a lot of competition, because there are neighbors who are competing with you all the time: there are food places, there are clothing stores who are competing. But still, I would say the community has grown, the area has grown, because they are bringing in different–different stuffs, kind

00:43:08.140 - 00:43:26.520

of a thing. Yes, they have their challenges, because I do see their challenges. Sometimes I cannot talk about that because the books and all those privacy things that I hold over here. But those, I see them growing because they are unique in finding something innovative about it, kind of a thing.

00:43:27.060 - 00:43:46.140

But they have been continuously striving up over there by staying in con-continuously. Plus there's the influx of new immigrants, plus this area has achieved their name and interest because people can drive all the way from Victoria and all the way from Beaumont, just to be over here, to buy good stuff, good

00:43:46.140 - 00:44:03.770

jewelry, good—because nowadays, I—even for my family, for my wife, she doesn't want to go to India and buy stuff, she just has to go to Hillcroft, get her gowns or her saris or her stuff which is needed for marriages and all occasions, kind of a thing.

00:44:04.880 - 00:44:17.550

We don't even have a second thought about that, like, “Okay, we are paying X amount, or we are converting that to the rupee” or anything like that. That does not happen nowadays, because we find the convenience. It's a convenience that we are over here.

00:44:18.230 - 00:44:32.550

We are–we are making an X amount, and we have to spend an X amount, that's what it is. And do you see any other areas of Houston that might, like, also become centers for Indian American businesses?

00:44:37.910 - 00:44:55.880

Uh…I would say I–I hope the Sugarland area works on that, because there is a major concentration of the Indo-American community in Sugarland. They have very good places of food and all those kinds of things, which have come up in those neighborhoods, in the five-mile radius that we live around and

00:44:55.880 - 00:45:11.940

everything like that. So—but apart from that, if you were to see some kind of a bazaar, or [laughs] thing that you—people walk around and can go from—hop from one place to another and just buy (inaudible) and everything like that, I don't

00:45:11.940 - 00:45:29.450

see that happening in–in–in any other neighborhoods, neither in Pearland, nor in Sugarland, nor in Spring, nor in Katy. No, I do not see that. Hillcroft will have its unique standing, no matter what in and out that you have to

00:45:29.450 - 00:45:43.880

make, and the traffic, and the congestion that you have to face. That will still stay up. I see. So Little India is like the one [laughs]. [SD: Yeah.] So also, that area

00:45:43.880 - 00:45:57.950

is adjacent to, like, Chinese business centers in Bellaire [SD: Yeah, the Bellaire.] and Latino business establishments in the neighborhood. So, what is your view of people from diverse, like, other backgrounds getting along with each other in the greater Houston area?

00:45:58.300 - 00:46:17.640

And is there any aspect of that that you hope to see improved in the future? I would say it is so very insightful that you see—if I go anytime, at any of these food joints and anything like that, it's not filled with only Indian American people.

00:46:17.900 - 00:46:34.520

I see people of different backgrounds, I see the-the Asian, Chinese people up over there, I see most of the Latinos, because they know what this food is. Sometimes, some places which are only vegetarian, you might find people having to try them just once in a while.

00:46:34.910 - 00:46:53.820

But if those are places which carry meat and chicken, they have a lot more traffic of the different diverse communities. And Houston is a diverse community, (inaudible) having more than 192 people—or countries living up over here, kind of

00:46:53.890 - 00:47:11.820

a thing. So that being the case, they–they love—and the way in which it has grown is it's not just the interaction which is happening through the workplaces and the corporate things. The–the student's community, the—people know because their friends are in the

00:47:11.820 - 00:47:31.220

Indian community, and they come out over there. As you know, the U of H has the highest enrollment of the Indian students, kind of a thing. Every year, maybe we will see at least 10,000 plus students coming up over there, just for taking their master's or whatever, kind of a

00:47:31.220 - 00:47:50.450

thing. So-so, it's not just thing that people are just—are known because, "Okay, once in a while, I'll just go and try." It's not happening that way. Because it's convenient, because it's those neighborhood and people just want to have different something—because for me also, it's the same

00:47:50.450 - 00:48:06.140

thing. I will not—I will always try tacos, I will also go for Chinese PF Chang's, I will also go for the Vietnamese food, I will also go for the shrimps and the prawns, kind of [unintelligible] as well. So–so that's how it is.

00:48:06.410 - 00:48:22.640

Though our basic palate might be the same, I might be having maybe four times in a week my Indian food, but I will still love to go and eat something different every week...Or eat Indian [laughs].

00:48:23.060 - 00:48:41.050

Yeah, food is definitely a great way to, like, experiment and go into dif-different cultures. So how have you seen the Little India District kind of change over the course of your time in Texas? Yes, because in—22 years is not a short time, I would say.

00:48:41.500 - 00:49:01.760

Houston has changed its dynamics tremendously in the work, in the nature of the development, in the very nature of its infrastructure, the housing, and of course, I would say the–the community part, kind of a thing, because everything

00:49:01.880 - 00:49:19.490

is changed. The–the—I didn't used to see those small buses which take the downtown people up from Sugarland and they drop off whatever, that has happened. It wasn't 22 years back, it happened maybe 15 years back, 10

00:49:19.490 - 00:49:32.670

years back, kind of a thing. So, things are changing, and it will change. COVID has played a different role again, I would say, but with that protocol being the case, it–it does not undermine

00:49:33.910 - 00:49:46.970

what–what people wish and long. People still wish to be socially involved. People still want to be at different events. If you see cultural events, which are the major events in the Indo-American community,

00:49:46.970 - 00:50:03.340

which is Diwali and the Holi program, this programs are attended by—almost 50% of the people are of non-Indian origin, and people love to come out and see what it is.

00:50:07.940 - 00:50:25.470

Yeah, that's true. It's—it—I think it calls for a lot of, like, mixing of different cultures, yeah. So, to move on to some questions on, like, your identity, how would you identify yourself? And this can be in terms of, like, ethnicity, religion, personal values or

00:50:25.520 - 00:50:42.540

beliefs, or anything else, like, that's important to you. Uh, I would say that I'm a Hindu, a proud Hindu, passionate worker at the grassroot level.

00:50:43.570 - 00:51:00.530

I don't want to pull titles, but those come by the way, so we have to go with it. I have the belief, which is there's one supreme God. I have the belief that if you work hard, success comes.

00:51:02.910 - 00:51:24.600

I—there is the personal value, and the conservative value, which is having less government, more family values, less crime, lower taxes, so all those things do come up in my–my–my–my

00:51:25.050 - 00:51:41.870

page. Um, and I'm—I know you mentioned you haven't been to India in, like, four years or so. Do you plan to visit in the future? Uh, yeah, possibly next year I'll be going there, 2023.

00:51:41.870 - 00:52:00.200

Because the last I went was in 2018, it's almost five years now. And it's been al—it would be almost three years that I would not have seen my mother. She was over here with us just during COVID, and we made sure with all these things happening, that she didn't want to stay here for long.

00:52:00.710 - 00:52:14.710

So just when the vaccination came, and we made sure she had both of them, and then she left from here. So, after that, I haven't been over there, though I talk to her every other day, kind of a thing, and make sure all the things are good.

00:52:15.480 - 00:52:31.480

My father did pass away in 2017, just yesterday of 2017, five years it is, so—but that's–that's life. Um, do you still stay in contact with your sibling as well?

00:52:32.780 - 00:52:46.090

Yes, all my siblings, my cousins, it's more or less—we do have the WhatsApp group. [laughs] That's alw—that's always there. But occasions are the–the–the festivals, (inaudible) festivals, which,

00:52:46.280 - 00:53:04.760

in our Hindu calendar that we follow, we call it—call up each other, or talk to each other. The birthdays and anniversaries do come up again, so those are the things. And just in case if there is something that we have to pass information about some things otherwise than that, it's not the case that we are—because my mo—I just have one brother

00:53:04.760 - 00:53:19.930

and he's in Canada, it's not the thing that we would be hanging around everyone—every year, somewhere, and going out or anything like that, because life comes in the way. Because my practice is such, and my profession is such that to take time off is very difficult, kind of a thing.

00:53:20.520 - 00:53:36.680

So it's once a year, sometime, that we have to do it. And that usually summers, and not everyone can match their calendars as per their schedules or anything like that, so that gets difficult. But, yes, I–I am very close with most of my cousins.

00:53:37.620 - 00:53:51.910

And whenever I go to India, they are high over heels to–to please and come out and do whatever it takes, kind of a thing. I love them. That's nice that you have a lot of, like, support from your family.

00:53:53.160 - 00:54:13.220

What are your current hobbies and interests outside of your career? Still reading I continue. I still do some–some meditation, I do. And in my hobbies, I would still like to hear

00:54:14.030 - 00:54:27.420

music. That's my passion. I–I don't watch a whole lot of television or skits, anything like that. Sometimes I'll just watch something, a serial or something, and all those are something old timers, okay, I'm still not into the current genre.

00:54:28.140 - 00:54:44.560

So–so I will just on Matlock or [laughs] Andy Griffith Show, or something like that, as old as that. And I just watch that as I'm having my dinner or something. So that's my pastime. And then I—the–the latest

00:54:44.980 - 00:55:06.060

thing which happened during COVID was, of course, that we adopted a dog. [laughs] My daughter had been asking for it for almost 10 plus years, and it came up that with no–no social interaction, laid up in house and everything, we said, “No,

00:55:06.140 - 00:55:24.470

that's the best decision we can make for her.” And we adopted a dog and she is a delight, I would say, and to all of us in the family. And I would used to be the—I used to be most afraid of dogs, I would be the first one to

00:55:24.470 - 00:55:39.880

say, Eesha, my daughter, "If you get a dog or a pet, I'm out of this house." (inaudible) But today, I just adore to see her, and she’s—when I—whenever I reach home, she is my shadow. She would just go around me all the time.

00:55:41.300 - 00:55:55.450

That's really sweet. What kind of dog is she? She's a coonhound. And we rescued her on fourth of July 2020, COVID year.

00:55:57.390 - 00:56:13.220

She was just seven weeks. That's really sweet. Yeah, my family also got a dog last year. So, she's still pretty young. So my last question would be, if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to

00:56:13.220 - 00:56:22.520

your younger self, what would you say? Give the advice to? Um, if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to yourself, what would it be?

00:56:24.760 - 00:56:35.390

I lost you in between the connection. Oh, sorry. [laughs] I was just gonna ask, if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to yourself when you were younger, what would you say to them? [sighs]

00:56:41.610 - 00:56:59.570

I don't know, I would still say that, "You should have done something in sports." Because I was always a indoor person.

00:57:00.190 - 00:57:12.430

I always used to stick around in those—have my book, my stuff, and all those things. Never used to be outside person. My brother used to be the other side of it, kind of a thing.

00:57:12.430 - 00:57:28.700

He's always used to roam around and play a lot. So that is one thing that I never did. So, maybe that might be the only thing I would say that I missed out growing up. I see, that–that's really great.

00:57:28.870 - 00:57:44.670

[laughs] So, that's all the questions that I have prepared for now, but do you have anything else that you want to add? Did I miss you? Oh, sorry, can you hear me now?

00:57:45.290 - 00:57:58.580

Yes, yes. Oh, I was just gonna say, so that's all the questions that I have prepared for now, but if there's anything else that you want to add, you can— No, Emily, it was really nice to be talking to you.

00:57:59.040 - 00:58:19.100

And this—I don't know what exactly motivated you folks to reach out to me, but basically, I am indebted to all of you for giving me a chance to talk to you, to just be part of whatever your–your mission is, kind of a thing, just to

00:58:19.100 - 00:58:29.460

be part of that, and to share my little bits. It might not be a lot of funny things that I might have said, because accountants are usually drab. [laughs]

00:58:29.460 - 00:58:40.940

Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk to me. It's–it's like my honor to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Emily.

00:58:44.500 - 00:59:02.660

So, yes, cultural shocks were there, but since everything was new, unexpected, kind of a thing, but I knew that this was land of opportunity. And that being the case, I wanted to make it happen, because I had

00:59:02.660 - 00:59:22.080

decided that there is no going back from this, after having immigrated over here. So, in the very initial when I just came in, I didn't even have a job at that point of time, in the first social interactions that I had, there was one cousin of mine, and they had the 25th Silver Jubilee

00:59:22.630 - 00:59:40.970

celebrations, and we were invited over there. And in that celebrations, I met a bunch people out over there, who—when they heard my name, my last name, they immediately responded and asked me

00:59:41.190 - 00:59:55.150

whether I was related to someone, Dr. Dhairyawan. And remember, I had told you in my earlier recollections that my grandfather was a doctor. And he was a famous doctor over there in Bombay, and he had done a lot of social work

00:59:55.150 - 01:00:14.060

and community work, and also treated his patients with compassion. So that being the case, he was very well known at that—those times. And when I came over here, I—my first thing that hit me was: “Wow, I am over here, 10,000 miles away from home, and people, even after he had passed,

01:00:15.450 - 01:00:31.150

remembered these kinds of a thing.” It was past 30 years, kind of a thing. People still recollected, and they were talking and asking me whether they—I was any way related or known to that. So–so–so that was what hit me, kind of a thing, and I said, "Wow, just because of that

01:00:31.250 - 01:00:44.700

one profession that he had, and he made the change and the difference. I don't have that same professional. I'm not a medical doctor. But I will be in the profession, I'll do some kind of service in the community,

01:00:45.190 - 01:01:00.030

that in–in future, in generations to come, people say that, okay, there was one other Dhairyawan, in Houston, who did something, kind of a thing, for my grandkids, maybe." That's what my immediate thought was. Because you—I was so new to this country.

01:01:00.030 - 01:01:19.130

I did not know nothing. But that hit me, and just to roll that back on, I would just add on to that: just last week, we were at a restaurant just off in Sugarland. And over there, we find another such family who were dining over there.

01:01:19.150 - 01:01:35.250

And since we were speaking the Marathi language, which is colloquial to Bombay, they heard—overheard us, and they asked us who we are and everything. “I said Dr.—I am Dhairyawan, Swapan” and whatever. And immediately, there was lady over there, he—she said, "Mom, mom, do

01:01:35.450 - 01:01:49.330

you know Dr. Dhairyawan? He's the grandson of them." And the mom, she—they were celebrating her 100th birthday, 100th birthday. So, imagine, that lady who might have been born in 1922,

01:01:49.580 - 01:02:01.600

she immediately came and shook my hands and gave me a hug. And she said, "Wow, he was my family doctor, and he has been so great," and this and that. And this is what, 50 years later?

01:02:02.370 - 01:02:20.680

I am just zapped with how things—small, small things can people remember, just because they have been touched upon, kind of a thing. And I said, "Okay, I'm still not landed. Though I am over here for 22 years, there is someone else still remembering someone

01:02:20.750 - 01:02:29.820

else's thing, compassion, that had been felt with." So, that-that's the only thing I wanted to add on. That's–that's really amazing. Wow, that's an amazing story.

01:02:29.820 - 01:02:44.030

It sounds like your grandpa was really, like, well known by people, made a really good— Yeah. They were very few people, doctors in that profession, at that point of time. And he was one of—they used to be called—they were given the

01:02:44.530 - 01:02:59.210

award of—just like how you do community service, he was given the award of Dhanwantari, that means "surgeon of the Gods," kind of a thing. So that kind of award was given to him in his 60s or 70s, that—

01:03:00.770 - 01:03:04.920

Wow, that's really cool, that's really impressive, and I'm sure your—you will be also remembered the same way.