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So today is August 10, 2021. I am Yiyi Yang, an intern at the Houston Asian American Archive. We are pleased to be documenting Dr. Steven Shen's oral history today.

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Thank you, Dr. Shen, for joining us. So, our first question, um, we will start from the beginning. When and where were you born? Yeah, I was born—I

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was [unintelligible] a while ago, in ‘60s, late—mid–mid ‘60s. I was born 1960—64. I’m fifty fi-fifty-seven, fifty-eight years old. I was born in the central part of China, called

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Hu-Hubei province? It’s almost exactly in the middle of the country. My–my home is actually at the border of Hubei province, adjacent to Hunan province.

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So, yeah. Yeah, so what are some of the memories you have with the neighborhood you grew up in? Uh [laughs], yeah.

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Mid-1960s is very different from now. This–this—you know, it's really very different. I—there’s a lot of good—not—a lot of good memories. The—is a really beautiful

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hill, not a lot—big mountains, that—the mountainous regions, interspersed with some field. A lot of memories has to do with families and surroundings. I was—I was born in this very small town

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there. My father was a teacher—was a primary school teacher. So, he's one of the two teachers in a school, so he teaches everything. A lot of memories was my parents—my father—my mother–my mom is a

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very strong woman. You know. Wha—I have a lot of good memories in childhood. Like, your friends. Have a lot of people we play, and play in a field and yeah, was pretty good.

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I have a pr—really good, loving family. I have very good memories of my childhood. Yeah, um, what was your—how was your relationship with your parents and siblings?

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Yeah, uh. You kn—thinking about this interview is—gave me a chance to really think about where I come from. Yeah, I have a very loving family.

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I have a gr-great relationship with my parents. My mom and dad love me a lot. I’m the—I am the eldest of the family. I have two—I have a brother and a sister.

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Because my dad is a teacher, so we're already on—there’s a lot of interactions. He has a huge impact in my life, who I become. I remember I was always a good kid when I was younger, so my—the—I behave, I never make any troubles.

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My dad teaching me a lot when–when I was younger, teaching me everything. I think some of my confidence or my intellectual growth later on is all rel—because of that childhood. So I have—I always think about that.

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The childhood is really really important. First—even the younger, before primary schools. My brother and sisters, they are three years and six years younger than me. They–[laughs] they—I

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have to say they probably respect me and they adore me so much. Sometimes make me uncomfortable. So I–I–I guess I did better at a school—a-around that time. So, was always—I

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guess they—my-my-my mom, dad already always asked my brother and sister, say, “Hey, you should be like your–like your–like your brother.” So, yeah, very good family. Yeah, a lot of good memories.

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Nice. What values did your parents emphasize when you were young? Uh, yeah, I guess some of the daily interactions, really, what they think, how you should live your life. Some of this early value would be

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like many Chinese parents, I guess, education is always the most important. We are younger, you go to school. You do well in school, you-you learn, you read, and do well,

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get good grades—all this is a measurement. Of course, hard-working, obviously, this—no matter where you're gonna go, you gotta work hard and be–be nice person. Yeah, I think they—I mean those–those interactions early on

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d-definitely taught me a lot of sense. And then when you grew up, you look up to your parents. Well honestly, proud of my dad is because, as I mentioned, he's a primary school teacher in a very small place.

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So he's–he's well-respected, and—which I like that, see my parents being well–well—seeing my dad was respected by other people, and people ask him for help. Yeah, it made me think about this education, so—so nice to important to be in that position. So, those are certainly—make me,

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guess, later into school—so I say, “Hey, I want to be like my dad.” Read—no sense, read books, even though the—not too many people read books in a small place. Yeah. That's interesting. And, um, I'd like to know, what kind of education before college

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did you receive? Uh, that was—I think [laughs]—so we all live in a world is in a different stages. In 19—when I was younger,

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I think that there's a–there's a important part of the time, which is in 19–1977. I don't know—were you born–were you born in the United States?

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Or is there—where–where were you born? Do you know anything about the China a little bit? Um, yeah, I'm–I’m–I’m born—I was born in 2002, [SS: Oh.] but 1977?

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Is that something about the college entrance exam? That's correct. You're right. [YY: Yeah, you can say more about that.] Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, that's a major year, not only for me, for–for–for China.

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So in 1977 is the first year they start this college entrance examination. So, rather than by recommendations, or family network, so that's the first year they have the national entrance examination. So all the high school students are able to take the same test—a

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comprehensive language and maths and test that based on how your—your performance, your scores, you’re–you are assigned, or you apply a little bit and not assigned to different schools. So that was the year—I was not—so I, in 1977, I was in—just start high school.

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I started high school in 1977. So, there's a gen–so, there's a general understanding that if you go to school, you go to high school is you do well, you are a—you have opportunity to go to college. Before that, it's not like that.

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So, before college, my—I was–I was lucky enough to–to be admitted to a really very prestigious high school in our county. It's very strange situation for–for—it’s a strange sit-situations where I was extremely

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lucky. Because that high school, I said “prestigious” because a couple reasons: first of all, in order to go to that school, you got to take a test where maths and Chinese, those–those are two subjects you're tak-taking. So, the students are selected to the school.

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And a second of all, I–I guess, the major reason is because that high school is not actually in a to—in a–in a cities. It’s in a mountain, really in a mountain by the river. It’s beautiful. I remember very vividly my–my high school.

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The teachers are—many of the teachers are actually college-educated, [unintelligible] college-educated teachers, which is extremely rare in a small city that we have. So after the year that I was graduated, many of the teachers are moving to the big

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cities. So–so the high school really is a huge transition. I was in lucky in that positions, I was able to go there. And so, two years of intense studies. So, in 1979, I participated in at–at

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national entrance examination, it's called gāokǎo. So that's one of the major exams in China. It’s here even still now. So it’s that test a couple of days that is going to determine where you're going to go,

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unlike here in the United States. So I did quite well, I think I did well, because I was one of the five—I think I was five—one out of five students, among 150 people, get a pass

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that—whatever that level is that year, it’s 300 or 285, something like that, in our province. So, I get—to get go to college, so. That was—the high school, they're really a big transition for me. Not that this is any different, it's just a-around that time that the–the

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China start to have that policy where you can go to college, no matter what–no matter what your family background, yeah. Yeah. Um, what is the name of the county that you were born?

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Uh, they change a lot of it. It’s called—at the time, it’s called Ying-Yingshan: Y-I-N-G-S-H-A-N. And later, the—there’s some merging with the surrounding areas that have become a city called Guangshui City.

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So it's changed a lot. I mean, I want to go back. Yeah, it's—the city’s getting much bigger, and some of the older, smaller villages merged into the cities.

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So they’re—yeah. Now it's called Guangshui. It's about 90 miles from—north of Wuhan. I see. [SS: Yeah. Yeah.] Mhm. And, um, did your parents help you a lot when you

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were preparing for the–for the college entrance exam? No, my, uh—no, in terms in high school—the other things about the high school is, that's the first time that I actually live away from my parents.

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I was 13 years old. No, my parents did not able—did not hel–did not help much with high school. M-my dad is a primary school teacher, so that's why I did well in–in–in middle school, in primary school, but in high school, no.

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So, actually, that–that school, as I mentioned, is in a mountain altitude. It’s like 10 miles away from my family. There's no transportation. So we–we actually live in a big dormitory.

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Everyone lived together in one big dormitory in–in the school. We get to come home every two weeks by walking. There’s no, as I mentioned, there's no transportation. So, 10–10–10–10 miles is actually pretty far.

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You walk through the hills and some mountains. Yeah, you come home on a Friday, you get back on a Sunday. So every tw—every other week. So, really, high school is all by myself.

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I mean, there's 150 students—around 150 students, it's fairly competitive because all the kids are doing pretty well, so yeah. Yeah, I see.

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But–but the parents’ education, my dad, in part–in particular, lay the foundation for how, you know, what I did. I already learn how—I know how to learn, how to read books, and you know, just listen to teachers. We've got wonderful teachers, very nice teachers.

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I still have some interaction with them many years later. I still visit them when I go back to China many years later. That's really a meaningful connection that you're still making with them. I appreciate [SS: Yeah.] that.

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Oh, yeah, I'm sure everyone’s are. The—you have some high school teacher, you will never forget about them. They’re—yeah, they’re–they’re nice–nice–nice–nice teachers. Yeah. So how did you, um, end up in the college

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that you attended? Is that Tongji Medical University? That's–that's correct. Yeah. Uh, if you pass a certain level of the scores on the national entrance examination, gāokǎo—so you–you have a science

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score. Based on a score, it was changed a little bit every year, I think. Sometimes—you–you fill a form, where you want it to go. So you're–you have choices number 1, 2, 3. Like, here, application in the United States, you 1, 2, 3, 4, but it's

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one form you se–you send it there. Based on your score, that's the most important, then you—there’s a different tiers of schools. Going to medical school is actually—Tongji Medical School is not—is really not my first

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choice. I believe it’s one of my third, fourth choice. Usually, for–for boys, at that time, you really want to go to engineering schools, science school–science schools, before medical school.

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So, I don't really—so I accidentally get into the medical school, really, to be honest. I think it's—that’s the situation. I don't have a particular reason, say, “I’m gonna—I want to be a doctor” at that time, well [laughs].

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Yeah, but things just happen by chance. That–that's–that–that's correct. At that time, you really have a general category what you wanna do. You really wanted to go to, you know, engineering schools.

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So that's most of the boys still wants to go–go to schools. But, if you didn't get to first tier, the school that you wanna go first. And then you get to the second category, where we're in med school. So, you know—work out really well.

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I'm–I’m so glad. I mean, I think very fortunate. I think I–I like med school, obviously, particular what—for what I'm doing now.

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Great. How was your college experience? Uh, I–I will say there's a lot of emotions when I go to medical sch—go to the college–colleges. Exciting, proud,

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nervous, worried. [laughs] All–all these emotions are—is a mix. Excited and proud, of course, is because—is a–is a really—is really hard to get into college at that time.

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It’s a–it’s a major life transition. If you're able to go to college, you're almost guaranteed a job after graduation. If you don't, I mean, your life is completely different. You might be a worker, you might be a farmer, or you what to be, you know—so

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really, it’s a completely different life. It is–it was almost—it was completely different. So, very proud. My parents are very proud, obviously, one out–one of the–one out of the 150

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peop–people who get–get to the college. It’s th–it’s the—yeah, it's a major experience. I have never get out of my city and never take a train before high school. So that's the first time I actually take a train from the city and go to Wuhan.

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I was nervous, also. Because I–I actually are younger, one or two years younger, than most of my college graduates. The reason is because my–my father was primary school teacher. When I go to school, I started second grade, instead of first grade.

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And also in our small town, high school, instead of your three years, we actually two years. So, I was I went to college when I was—before I was 16 years old. So—mean it’s younger, I mean, I never knew—I’m

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never going—been into the big cities. So I guess that it begin—is very—it’s very overwhelming. But the college is free, for those of us family background are not well-off. Our college is very free, so my parents give very little money.

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I do believe at the time, everybody's not faring very well, the families are not—not everybody's doing well. But, I guess, at the beginning, I was younger, this very—the transition is really difficult. The people are nice.

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I–I did okay, the first couple years. And I was mature, to—getting older, I think did better and better, maybe for third year, fourth year, and fifth year in particular, so I did—so, my medical college is five years, so yeah.

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A lot of–a lot of growing up in college. A lot good memories obviously. Growing up, get to–to be interact with the kids around me, get to know other people, all this–all

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this learn—classroom activities. We don't have much extracurricular activities, there are some [cuts out]. To all the time I spend is in a campus. So, I rarely go outside campus.

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As I mentioned, I was probably just watch the movie a couple of times outside campus, didn't travel much outside. Sometimes just to see the cities, except that, and just all the time in libraries, classrooms.

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dormitory, so those are pretty much—yeah. Very—I mean, I remember there's a lot of fun, even though we don't have lot of student, even it's just study, and yeah. That's really intense.

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Med–the medical school is–is quite different. Later, we'll—maybe we'll talk a little bit about that. Medical school education in China, there's—instead of four years, and most of other college is four years, five years–five years—it’s

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one year longer. So you get a–a degree, not a MD degree, but a bachelor degree. A little—it’s called a Bachelor of Science degree—Bachelor of Medicine degree, so you can start practicing medicine, but you already got to do a little bit residency in hospitals. So, the first two years are basic sciences, all the medical

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sciences and later—and the next two years is most–most of the clinical medicine, and there's a one year, you are doing—called—like interning, you stay in hospitals. You see patients, learn how to take care of patients. So that's–that's a five-year–five-year program.

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Yeah, um, did you spend totally five years before you went to PhD in China? No, actually, yeah, a little bit more on that college. After—our class is about 140 people in a class.

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Each is—we have–we have—the classes are—they’re—each of the class is depending on different medical schools. Tongji is a pretty well-known medical school. It’s–is certainly one of the best medical schools in central part of China.

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It’s very strong in some of the specialties. In particular, they call—there’s a thing called preventive medicine. So I was in that category, in that track. So, after graduated from medical

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school, there is a—I guess, there's a–there's a thing, it’s called—we get additional degrees, called Master Degree, Master of Sciences degree. So that was additional three years. So that's a very—so most–most of them—well, I

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guess, most of the competitive kids who want to get additional three years education gets, in addition to the Master of Sci—Medicine, they want to get a Master of Science degree, which is another three years. The reason is because—of course, additional three years, you are getting older, you learn

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more things, you're going to get an opportunity to work in a better institutions, better hospitals, a better research institutions. So, it—everybody around—I think pretty much almost all of them wants to go to additional three years.

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So I was actually lucky enough to be among–among one of the 21 students, out of 140 people, to get into the Master programs. So, my college experience in that school, in Tongji Medical School, including eight years. Five years of undergrad, graduate, and additional three years

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working for a degree called Master–Master of Science degrees. So I spent total of eight years in med–in medical school when I graduated. [YY: I see.] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I—after that, maybe a little before PhD, actually,

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because that eight years of education, I got two degrees. So, I was—we called “assign.” You–you basically appl—you wrote—it depends on where, what’s the locations, what medical institution are looking for people. They are come to the schools.

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So I'm able to go to Beijing, which is, you know, Beijing, you know they have one of the—some of the premier institutions in Beijing. So I was assigned to a institution called the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine. So–so I worked there for one and a half years, for a short period

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of time, before I came to the United States for a PhD degrees. I see. How was the experience there, in Beijing? Uh, I—as I mentioned, I was there only for one and a half years. Beijing is [laughs]—Beijing is Beijing, right?

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It’s the capital, there's a lot of stuff going on. Around that time, in late 1980s. So that was—‘70s to ‘80s. 1987, I was—I went to Beijing to work in that

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academy. At that time, in—you know, China, there's a mix of things sense going on around that time, too. That open door policy. So, there's a lot of you know, communication between China, United States, West–Western world.

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So, as a 24-year-old, you know, a lot of things we–we wanted to get fur—and you want to come to United States to–to–to do—to further—to get a advanced degrees. The idea was that after you–you get education in the United States, you

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come back—you go back to China. I—in Beijing, at that institution, because I have a advanced degree, so—it was a very easy working experience. I did not establish too much of a collection of work in that environment.

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What I did was there is that in addition to work I took–I took some tests. [laughs] So I take one–one is the TOEFL, it’s the Test of English and for Foreign Language, and the other one is GRE.

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It’s the Graduate Medical Record Examinations. So with that two examinations—so, we have that as one of the basic requirements if you want to come to study in the United States. So with that two scores, you are able to apply.

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So this—I spent quite a bit of a time in applying for studying in the United States. I see. Um, so when did you have the idea of that you would like to study in the United States, and why?

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At the time, it’s—I guess there's no—I guess, it’s, I mean, I said—I told, 24. You're curious about the outside world, like all the young ki—young–young people—young–young graduates.

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And we know what's going on. We know a little bit about what's going on in United States. At that time, China is still developing. The even (?)—regardless what are you going to do—you want to be a researcher, you want

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to be a doctor. So, you wanted to come to the place where things is going on. We know that United States is the place to be. They have the most developed—most advanced biomedical sciences.

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So, as I mentioned, the goal is to get–get further training, get trained in the best place in the world, and go back to China…it’s not—sometimes people ask me about, “Is it because of any particular reason?” I don't think there's any particular reason.

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It's just curious. There's opportunities for you to do, as long as you can do it. And you mean—you want–you want to be able to do it. It's no—it’s not like I’m–I'm forced to come, or I–I was not treated well there.

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No, it's not–nothing like that. It's just there's better opportunities, and then you apply—you–you–you go for it. Yeah, totally understand. Yeah, I was–I was lucky enough.

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There's a lot—there was lucky factors, of course, I was kind of prepared. I was gonna mention something about—a little bit related to what I'm able to do in–in the future at that time. I–I was al-always curious, since–since middle school.

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For some reason, I was always curious, or very interested in the language. I thought it's cool to be able to communicate in a completely different language.

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So, start high school, I learn a tiny bit of English. At the time, the college entry examination, English is an optional subject. Even though we have a teacher, which, you know, one semester [laughs] I remember my teachers–teachers are very nice, some English teacher, but he–he barely know much

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about it. So, when we take the college entrance examination, my teacher’s advice for us is something like, “If you—any question, if you answer B, you keep answer B. If you answer C, you keep answer C.

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So you get a—you get an average score, at least.” So, in other words, I would barely know much English. But in college, in medical school, we have some formal education. Basic medical—basic English examinations, basic–basic English

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test. So we—I, as I mentioned, I was just cur—always very curious learning English. I think one of the big–biggest reason I'm able to get to the Master degree program is because English is my strongest sub–sub—specialty,

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in addition to medical or the other basic sciences. So yeah, that's also allow me to take the TOEFL, GRE, I got pretty good score. So, yeah [laughs]. That's really cool.

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Yeah, yeah, I thought so too. Yeah. Something where it's just the interest, uh, then I don't know, so—I just didn't know that this is important. It's just a–it's just a tool.

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But it was very fun to be able to communicate with other people in–in a different language. Right. I think it is. I still think it is. I want to learn Spanish. I want to learn Japanese.

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So [laughs]. Yeah, um, would you say that the application to PhD in the US is quite competitive at that time?

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Yeah. Uh, I will say—there's a couple things. First of all, you, I mean, you have a goal and that—you–you got to know what to do, you know? So yeah, it is competitive, for sure.

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You got to know what to do. You need to know, you know—you need to know where–where the direction you're going, right? You got to get—you gotta have a good score. And then you need to write letter–you need to write a letter, application letters,

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in a completely different language. Nev–I never write letters in English before. So actually, you're writing letters and you have to send letters and you find—you have to find resources where to apply.

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So that's–that's all the things. Of course, score’s important. Then you need to know–you need to know what's the right place to apply. What to apply. Who you are in contact with.

00:30:17.020 - 00:30:31.540

And even take the test—the TOEFL, GRE–GRE. They have, you know, 75—I forgot—25 bucks, or 50 dollars. But is—many times they—I have to borrow money.

00:30:32.900 - 00:30:48.870

You don't—I mean, at that time, the salary in–in—when I was working, even though I have a Master's Degree—it’s–it’s—you can’t just—you cannot afford it. So, I think the test is about—if I can remember, it's about two or three times the monthly salary.

00:30:50.570 - 00:31:06.860

So–so–so it’s a lot of money. Because the environment in Beijing, there's a lot of people around me know how to do this, and I have some friends. My application is actually pretty—again, I'm a lucky person.

00:31:06.860 - 00:31:17.390

There's a lot of—I’ll tell you a lot of lucky stories about myself. I’m a—I believe I'm lucky person. So I believe that all the time. Actually, some–sometimes you created your own luck.

00:31:17.630 - 00:31:34.960

I taught people about that. I was lucky for a number of reasons: first of all, I got a friends, who was applying one year ahead of me. Friends are really important. [laughs] He–he apply one year ahead of me, his score is lower

00:31:35.490 - 00:31:54.140

than mine. So, you apply to any schools. Some schools has a higher requirement of the score, basic scores, some have lower scores, in addition to the location that you know. So we apply, you know, to Kentucky,

00:31:54.440 - 00:32:10.920

Utah, California, you know, Texas. I apply for—in Texas. The friend applied many schools, but one of the school is–is UT Houston Medical–UT Houston Med School. They have a slightly higher score requirement.

00:32:13.000 - 00:32:29.130

He—his score is not quite there, but he told me about it. So, I am able to apply and it is very—and another thing’s, fortunately, is that, the place I apply, there's one professor, my future PhD supervisor, Dr.

00:32:29.130 - 00:32:45.180

Henry Strobel, very nice man. My–my life is—a lot is because of him—because—coming United States, is because of him. He–he is someone—he love Chinese–Chinese culture.

00:32:46.230 - 00:33:04.380

He has been travel to Beijing since the late ‘80s, for the subsequent almost–almost 20 years. He bring a group of medical students from here, UT Medical School, and—to–to go to Beijing and stay there for one and half, one half months.

00:33:06.240 - 00:33:18.180

He's a professor in biochemistry. So he traveled there. So my friend told me about him. He's going—he’s in Beijing—he told me he's going to be in Beijing, so at that time, I was—I hold my tests now.

00:33:18.180 - 00:33:31.750

So, I have—I met him in a hotel in Beijing. So that's–that's his sort of—accident is happens. So he said, “Hey, you—yeah, you got a good score. You have—you–your score is good enough.

00:33:31.940 - 00:33:48.300

And then I–I'm sear—I’m looking for students as well. So yeah, you can join me.” He think I—I can speak with him. He understand well, about–about all the Chinese students.

00:33:49.150 - 00:34:02.120

So that was really—I was lucky–I was lucky to be able to come to the United States. Houston Medical School is a graduate school, biomedical sciences, is a very good—it’s very good school.

00:34:03.070 - 00:34:14.940

So, for me to be able to get to here. Again, it's a very lucky break. Yeah, that's really cool. I also think it's really important and sometimes lucky to have

00:34:15.500 - 00:34:28.650

mentors in your life. Friends, mentors. Yeah, just keep—yeah, definitely. I actually—out of one in my medical school class—I’m–I'm the

00:34:28.650 - 00:34:48.070

second–I'm the second to–to come to the United States. So, I was really, yeah, I came pretty—well, when I came to the United States, I was only 25 years old [laughs]. [YY: That’s wonderful]. With a–with a–with a medical school degree and also with a Master

00:34:48.070 - 00:35:00.000

Degree, so I'm—yeah, in that respect, I was really lucky to—yeah. It worked out really well. It wasn't struggle very much. Okay, so, let’s continue.

00:35:01.040 - 00:35:21.290

Um, yeah, and the next question I’d like to ask you is that what did you find is the biggest challenge studying in the US? Yeah, uh, I came here as a

00:35:23.020 - 00:35:39.560

PhD student. So, you're admitted to the schools, and there's orientations. I actually find not too bad.

00:35:39.560 - 00:35:57.090

I mean, I can't really—I mean, I know there are some people will—the language will be at the beginning is always a—there is always an issue. But that I believe that's an expected. It wasn't too bad for me, as I mentioned, because

00:35:58.850 - 00:36:15.920

of my background, because what I—about the language I mentioned about. I–I listened to the radios quite a bit so my–my listening ability comprehension, and ability to speak to other people are–are–are-are in pretty good shape when I came.

00:36:16.320 - 00:36:34.390

So was too—not too big of trouble–trouble for me, actually. So, and then the others things, of course, I have Dr. Henry Strobel, who—we already knew each other, and there is–there's a decision when you apply for medical—to–to–to–to PhD degrees,

00:36:35.370 - 00:36:51.320

then—in the formal programs in first–in the first half a year, first semester, you actually taking courses—you’re going to decide who you are going to do your thesis with. For me, that's not an issue because Henry Strobel was used to me.

00:36:51.320 - 00:37:08.030

I like him. I like his field. The reason he accepted me is because what—my background has some relationship with what he does. So, it was a pretty good transition for me. I was very excited, and good—I mean, I have a good time.

00:37:08.820 - 00:37:25.870

Just take classes. And then, being as a PhD student is also pretty easy, as I transition from company [unintelligible]—is that I get–I get a assistantship because working in a lab,

00:37:26.360 - 00:37:41.230

so money is not issue. You–you know, there's very low expenses, but they pay—I believe that was nine-nine thousand dollars a year is–is a lot of money at that time. Nine dol—I mean, seven hundred fifty dollars a month.

00:37:42.490 - 00:37:58.040

Our rent is about three hundred. So—you—there’s a left a lot of money, compared to the salaries that I get in China is many, many times more, even though it's a little more expensive. But–but was a very good case situation, so.

00:38:01.030 - 00:38:17.670

I get married in—before I came United States, I get married in Beijing. So—I—so my wife joined me a year later, after I came to United States, whe–when I was a student. So, well, I think the Ph D was a very nice time—takes a long time.

00:38:17.790 - 00:38:35.150

On—a-average is between five–five years, you get your degrees, because you got to take a couple of years’ courses and then you have to decide–decide at a research focus, what are you gonna do. That you already need to—run your experiment and you know, you just do your

00:38:35.150 - 00:38:50.170

studies. And of course, you have to write your thesis and summarize the results and later defend—write your thesis and defend your thesis. So, it's—yeah, it took me five years. But it was a really good five years for me in in Houston.

00:38:54.530 - 00:39:07.040

I see, yeah. Um, can you hear me now? [SS: I hear, yeah.] Okay, okay. Cool. Um, yeah. So, when did you meet your wife, and where?

00:39:07.090 - 00:39:23.600

[SS: I’m sorry?] Yeah, when and where did you meet your wife? Oh [laughs], yeah. Uh, I—after I graduated from medical

00:39:23.600 - 00:39:40.390

school with degrees and I was assigned to, as I mentioned, to Bei—to work in Beijing, it’s during that one half years. I was in Beijing. We met each other by mutual friends. So, I was 24–24.

00:39:41.870 - 00:39:58.580

Again, married before 25, at that time, it’s actually—the government has some sort of age limit. You cannot get married before 25 as a man. [laughs] So it's actually an exception—I get married becau—before I was 25. Was that—

00:40:00.690 - 00:40:19.430

Yeah, I see. I see. Um, and—yeah, so you eventually decided to stay in the US instead of come back China? [SS: That’s right.] And is there a reason for that?

00:40:19.790 - 00:40:36.070

Yeah, there's no—there’s really no particular–there's no particular reason. I know—I don't know what you already know. Around that time, 1989, there is a Tiananmen Square thing, and, you know [cuts out].

00:40:37.280 - 00:40:53.490

There's a demonstration protest, and there's some, you know, very unfortunate events happening in Beijing. I was here—was the year–year after I came to United States. My wife was actually in Beijing at that time. So, 1989, because I was here—in Beijing there—the

00:40:54.640 - 00:41:10.900

old—the senior Bush was the president. So he grant everyone foreign (?) in the United States as an option to get a green card. So, yeah, I—because of that, I guess, for the

00:41:10.960 - 00:41:29.080

convenience. So I–I decided to just to–to stay, rather than going back to China at that time. So it's really, you know, just because of circumstances, if you called it “lucky,” it was lucky. So I don't have—I didn't go through many troubles for applying for a

00:41:29.080 - 00:41:44.360

green card to stay in United States. I see, yeah. And can you describe your career path to us? [SS: Yeah, yeah.] It seems like you did not—um, you–you have

00:41:44.360 - 00:41:59.010

several focused areas, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, of course, in the PhD–my PhD, you know, you will really, of course—what are your car—what do you want to do as after PhD? What do you do? What's your research focus?

00:41:59.440 - 00:42:14.130

So, I'm major (?)—there’s couple choices. I'm doing a postdoc degrees, postdoc research. Typically, with a PhD, you got to find places where you want to foc–you want to focus on, and you find postdoc positions.

00:42:14.490 - 00:42:31.270

I graduate from PhD, I find it post—I have a number of choices. I decided to go to NIH—it’s the National Institutes of Health, for biomedical research, and everybody knows about that institute, in Bethesda, Maryland.

00:42:31.780 - 00:42:51.950

So, I was accepted as a postdoc fellow, so. After postdoc fellow, typical the transition for the field of my research in biochemistry, molecular biology, I've spoken a little bit about toxicology, liver toxicity. So usually, for–for the work I

00:42:52.120 - 00:43:07.710

doing—so the career path is going to pharmaceutical companies, or being assistant professor in an academic institution. So those are two–two of the pathways. And the reason I became [cuts

00:43:08.820 - 00:43:23.550

out]—really, again, I thinks [unintelligible] life and it’s accident in your life (?). Uh, I become a medical is—my–my career at that time is

00:43:23.550 - 00:43:41.380

a transition. The reason I even thought about becoming a medical doctor practice in the United States is–is—it’s really accidental. Even though I have an MD degrees in China, if you got MD degree from China, you're not able to practice in the United States.

00:43:42.120 - 00:43:58.680

You're not–you're not–you're not able to do that. During my PhD, I worked with a number of medical doctors here in the United States and a number of medical students who are also working with my supervisor, Henry Strobel.

00:43:58.680 - 00:44:15.830

So, I have some background about medical practice. So, lot of choices of course, in addition to the pharmaceutical companies or academic research institutions, so—could I be able to become—I mean, in background my mind is that—could I still become a doctor in the United States?

00:44:16.610 - 00:44:36.910

So it’s–it’s around the ending of my PhD. There's something happened right before I graduated, so right before I'm taking position as a postdoc in Bethesda, Maryland, to move my family from—my son was born, that time is three years

00:44:36.910 - 00:44:54.850

old. So, right before I moved, they tell me that I am not able to go because there–there is no position—there’s no space for me. So, all the sudden I was out of a job in a way. [laughs] So, right before.

00:44:54.890 - 00:45:12.250

So, but my–but my advisor is really good. My—Henry Strobel, and say, “Hey, yeah, you can stay with me as a postdoc.” Postdoc, you get to pay a little more than med student, so. So within that six to nine months there are—because there are

00:45:12.250 - 00:45:26.610

no specifics project for me, so I basically working as a research associate in a laboratory. I do not have any specific project. So, all of sudden, have a lot of time. My evenings are free, other than playing with my son.

00:45:27.460 - 00:45:43.360

So, my evenings are all of sudden free. So also, round time, there's a friend, some friends, of course, medical graduates from China, say, “Hey, maybe–maybe you can say—what are—you can practice medicine in the United States.” Now, the way they do

00:45:43.360 - 00:46:01.470

that—we know how to—we figure out how to do that, of course, is you have to take [cuts out] like biochemistry, pharmacology, microbiology, pathology, histology, and stuff like that. So, during a three or four months, I study for that—step one exam,

00:46:02.410 - 00:46:18.360

and I took the exam, it's a very difficult test. In addition, that–in addition, that test cover a wide range of specialties, sub-subjects, and so it's a very long test. I have never take a test that long before.

00:46:18.510 - 00:46:32.670

And I had to relearn some new medical terminologies. In China, in medical school, we learn the medicine, all in Chinese. We have no—we don't learn the English terminologies like, pneumonia, so, like appendicitis, so all that kind of stuff.

00:46:32.870 - 00:46:44.040

It’s very simple, but you gotta relearn all this terminologies. The test’s very long. There's a lot of reading materials. So–so, I guess the PhD stuff, five years, really

00:46:44.560 - 00:46:53.340

laid a great foundation. Not only I read fast–faster so I'm able to take that test. And biochemistry is a big part of that. I was majored in Biochemistry.

00:46:53.900 - 00:47:11.100

So, I only take about three or four months, and I take that test, and I passed. I was really surprised, and, of course, very happy—surprised. “Hey, it's only three or four months, I can take the step one.” I was a little—maybe a little bit arrogant. So I start, I star—"Hey, maybe this is something I can

00:47:11.100 - 00:47:29.540

do.” After six months, I moved to Maryland, where I stay for close to two years, one half years again. So, it was there, I find step two is much, much more difficult. The Step Two USMLE basically covers all the clinical medicine.

00:47:30.330 - 00:47:45.790

We're talking about pediatrics, internal medicine, surgery, you know, all that—radiology, [-all-] gynecology, all that medical sciences. I have never been working in hospital in China, so I do not have a lot of clinical experience.

00:47:45.860 - 00:48:00.580

So that's the—I guess this is a problem that—because I don't have that experience. I did a lot—I did some research in China, but I do not have clinic experience. So, I took a long time to take—to pass the step two. Not good score, but eventually I passed.

00:48:01.530 - 00:48:19.520

So, it was during—where I was in Maryland, I apply for the residency positions. That's–that's pretty much onc–once you get to the residency, your career is going to become a medical doctor, in the United States.

00:48:20.750 - 00:48:35.000

The specialty is–is actually a pretty easy choice. Like many medical graduates in China, because the PhD, I decided to do–to do pathology. Do you happen to know anything about pathology—what–what the pathology is?

00:48:35.920 - 00:48:54.370

Um, no [laughs]. [SS: No, okay.] Can you [unintelligible] for me? Pathology–pathology is, you know, the people who do pathology, of course, is pathologist. Pathologist is one kind of doctor who do not treat patients—we make diagnosis. We make a diagnosis from materials, from

00:48:54.370 - 00:49:13.430

the human—the tissues removed by other medical doctors. For example, if it's—if you’re a dermatologist, you remove something from your skin. Or you’re a gastroenterologist, who take care of your GI, you know, gastroenterology or intestine, you know, diarrhea, something going on, or you've

00:49:13.430 - 00:49:23.070

got something grow abnormally. And breasts, for example. They take some tissues from their patient, they give it to us. We have a laboratory, process a specimen.

00:49:23.540 - 00:49:38.960

So, we look at the slides to make a diagnosis. So, the other doctors know how to treat them. It’s a good one, it’s a bad one, how bad it is, and you know, it’s something like that.

00:49:38.990 - 00:49:53.300

The reason I choose to do this is pretty obvious. Because the bet—the pathology is at the cross—is in—an inner–interplay—in the middle between basic sciences and clinical science.

00:49:54.160 - 00:50:08.610

So, is there are some advantages for us to–to do pathology. So, I–I mean, I choose pathology because I like it. I still like it over—as I said, it’s the right choice for me. So, I apply for residency position for pathologist, when I was in–in

00:50:09.170 - 00:50:26.160

Maryland. It’s—every year, there are a small percentage of people like me, for medical graduates—you graduate from medical school outside the United States. There are small percentage of us.

00:50:27.000 - 00:50:44.630

Once you pass that test, like I mentioned earlier, you can be in the application pool. The application, I think, in general is pretty difficult, because there's not position for us—there’s not many positions for the foreign

00:50:44.630 - 00:50:59.420

medical grad–foreign medical graduates. The doctors here in United States, they like to get their own medical graduates, which is–which is totally understandable. So, I think there's a couple reasons: first, I have a PhD, and second of all, I work at

00:50:59.420 - 00:51:12.980

NIH—National Institute Health—is very reput–reputable institution. So, I got a few interviews. My interviews are okay. [laughs] Language obviously, oral communication, understanding

00:51:13.550 - 00:51:27.640

is certainly something—some people is gonna evaluate it. One is because since they are going to evaluate, see what are you are understand—you have good communication skills. So, you can, you know, they're gonna, you know, gon—choose you as, at

00:51:27.640 - 00:51:39.420

least, a candidate for residency. So I was pretty lucky to get a position as—at a residency. I did my residency at Pennsylvania State University in Hershey. I—ever heard of Hershey? It’s a small place.

00:51:40.860 - 00:51:44.430

There's a Hershey chocolate. So that's the most famous. I cannot hear you YiYi. Can you hear me now?

00:51:44.430 - 00:51:58.030

Oh yes, I can now. Yes. [YY: Yeah, yeah.] So Hershey is a small town in central Pennsylvania, Central Pennsylvania, where—it’s called Chocolate town. So–so I spent four years there. I did my res— [cuts out].

00:51:58.030 - 00:52:07.930

I see, yeah. That–that's very interesting. And it seems like a long journey for you to eventually getting to work.

00:52:08.340 - 00:52:15.870

[SS: It is, it is.] Yeah. Yeah, residency is still not a work, right? Residence is still in training. You get a decent salary.

00:52:16.100 - 00:52:28.630

Not–not very much. A little more than a postdoc. Yeah. But–but once you get your residency, you did well, and then that's—make a pretty good—you can start to get a good job as a doctor,

00:52:28.630 - 00:52:39.060

yes. Cool. I see, yeah. Can we take a 5 minutes break? I’ll adjust my internet and we can talk more about your current position and other stuff.

00:52:39.060 - 00:52:46.410

Yeah, absolutely. I’ll stay in the program, drink some water. [temporary break] Um, so what do you do for your current position? Uh, [laughs] well, I-I've ment–as I mentioned, I'm a pathologist, so I have a

00:52:47.350 - 00:53:01.700

pathology in this hospital. You—Yiyi, you know about Houston Methodist Hospital, do you? Um, only heard a little bit from that. You heard of it, yeah. Because it's very close to your university [laughs].

00:53:02.510 - 00:53:18.280

So, it's just nearby. You can see our hospitals from the campus. [Yiyi: Yeah.] Yeah. So, yeah. Houston–Houston, Methodist Hospital—one of–one—it’s one of the best hospital in the country.

00:53:19.330 - 00:53:34.700

We–we–we got a great department. We have a great tradition for excellent–excellent—academic excellence. So, I'm a pathologist here working—I’m here for almost–almost 20 years.

00:53:34.760 - 00:53:50.640

So, the next year—so this year—the next year is going to be my 20 years working here. So, this is the only job I have after all the residency and fellowship training, so. So I have three main functions, I guess: the primary—the major function

00:53:50.910 - 00:54:02.860

is being a doctor as a pathologist. So we're making–making diagnosis, as I mentioned, so. So that's the primary and the most important function is—that’s for the patient–patient–patient–patient care.

00:54:03.040 - 00:54:23.220

Patient service. Because the Methodist Hospital is also academ–academic medical centers, the other function that I have is—I do a little bit of research, clinic—your clinical pathology research. So, even re—if I got some results that get published, so–so over the

00:54:23.330 - 00:54:42.310

over the last 20 years—so initially, I was assistant professor at Baylor College of Medicine, and then after the separation between Baylor and Methodist Hospital, our hospital’s, subsequently–subsequently associated with another school, Cornell Medical College in New York.

00:54:42.800 - 00:55:01.420

So, my academic appointment is with Cornell Medical College. So, I was promoted from assistant professor–assistant professor and—to be a professor, quite a few years ago. So, I was—I’m a professor, so I have to do a little research, and then I do

00:55:02.000 - 00:55:16.750

a certain amount of teaching because we have a pretty good size residency program, where we train resident. After medical school, they want to do pathology, they come to our program, so we have to train them to become pathologists.

00:55:16.920 - 00:55:31.760

So this is my third function. So, I do patient care diagnosis, I do research, and I do teaching, which is, I mean, is great job for me, I really love it. I'm glad I get this position—I’m here, get this position.

00:55:33.510 - 00:55:49.580

I see, that seems like a lot of time commitments that you need to make since you're switching between these roles. So, do you have any experience that–that you would like to share, in terms of time management?

00:55:51.370 - 00:56:09.180

Well, it depends on different parts of your career, initially, after you graduated, you know, you have to, you know, you–you learn how to–how to–to be a good—how to be a good pathologist in your department.

00:56:09.350 - 00:56:25.120

You know, there's a certain amount of expectations when you do your first job. For a young pathologist, after graduate from fellowships, so your primary goal is that you have to be com-competent to make correct diagnosis.

00:56:25.680 - 00:56:40.210

And there's a certain amount of work that you got—you have to be able to finish. And then you have the certain amount of cases you have to—we–we call it, “sign out”. A certain amount of cases where you have to finish. It’s certain—it’s similar to those patient, that you have a certain amount of patient

00:56:40.210 - 00:56:55.700

waiting for you, and then there are—you know, they have pain or something you got to figure it out and you have to you have to be able to take care of them. For us, is—there a certain number of patient’s material you gotta interpret.

00:56:56.470 - 00:57:12.670

So, you got to learn—initially, you gotta learn that and you gotta do it, not only the quantity, but also you have to do it in a certain—the quality, you have to make sure that you made a correct, complete diagnosis, correct diagnosis. So initially, what you have to do is to get, make sure you are able to do that.

00:57:12.670 - 00:57:24.710

That's the primary function, right. So you do—as long as—become better at it. Then, typically while we do, want to be dev—some expertise, you become–become an expert in a certain areas.

00:57:25.560 - 00:57:44.220

For example, I can do, we call it general surgical pathology. I'm able to make a diagnosis for most of the tissues in the human body, except a few areas, like brain tissue, I don't make diagnosis, lymphoid tissue, I don't make diagnosis. Other than that, everything from the human body, I'm able to make a diagnosis.

00:57:46.650 - 00:58:04.890

I'm able to say, “This is–this is certain—what–what exactly—what it is under the microscope.” And after a few years, you want to diver—become an expert in certain areas. For example, for me, I'm considered to be a expert in areas of genital urinary diseases, the

00:58:05.920 - 00:58:21.990

diseases of from the kidney, from the bladder, urinary bladder, that you may, you know, prostate, as well as the testicle. So those are some areas where I know a lot about. And I do some research in those areas as well.

00:58:22.310 - 00:58:38.820

And I publish–I publish some, you know, findings, so I can get really good at those. So when other pathology has problems, I can serve as a consultant for them. I help them to–to make that diagnosis.

00:58:41.310 - 00:58:59.350

I see. Yeah, that's a pretty clear explanation of your role. And so, can you say more about how you became interested in the specific field that you're working on? You said it's something related to genital and urology?

00:58:59.790 - 00:59:19.540

Yeah, yeah. Well, for me, usually after I already graduate from residency program or a fellowship program. You are—you’re a pretty general, you are not doing anything in particular. So, the interest, “what do I want to do”—I’m pretty general.

00:59:19.540 - 00:59:38.380

I mean, I don't have any particular interest issues, other than sometimes the situation. When I graduated, when I come to here to work in the Methodist Hospital, they need someone to–to focus more on genital urinary pathology. So, they need someone, and I'm here, and I start doing it.

00:59:38.670 - 00:59:49.550

The more you do it, the better you become. The more—the better—the more you become, you're more interested in it. So, it's a cycle. It's–it’s a cycle you continue to do. It’s usually the case, right?

00:59:49.550 - 01:00:01.210

You like something. You keep doing it. You get better at it. You feel good about yourself, and then you do more. So, yeah. [laughs] So I could do some other things too.

01:00:01.460 - 01:00:15.730

Like, some of my other colleagues who are more expert in, you know, intestines, stomach disease. Or breast pathology, or the women's pathology, as well. So yeah, I could develop in any areas.

01:00:16.210 - 01:00:36.670

But as it happened, I was in genital urinary pathology, yes. I see, and what are your—what are you passionate about being a pathologist? Yeah. Yeah, pathology is a very interesting field for me is—it’s

01:00:36.670 - 01:00:52.720

because you're able to use what you—the knowledge, or the skills you get trained. You are helping—you’re really the deciding factor—how the pa-patients

01:00:55.680 - 01:01:12.010

gon’ be treated. So we—even though I don't treat the patient, but we are the ones is like—it is–it is–it is a detective, where we figure out exactly what it is by looking at—by examine the problem under the microscope.

01:01:13.490 - 01:01:26.940

In—sometimes we have to do additional, more advanced studies. For example, we call immunohistochemistry. We look at the—we look at what proteins are expressed in certain—where does it express and how much it express.

01:01:27.470 - 01:01:41.610

And right even—right now, there's a lot of stuff going on in the molecular genetics, molecular biology, in a DNA level and RNA level, something going on, what is—what happens. So we are able to–to determine

01:01:41.610 - 01:01:55.550

exactly what patient has. If you don't know what it is, you don't how to treat it. Only when you know what it is and you know how to treat it. So–so to be able to do that—being a part of that

01:01:55.730 - 01:02:12.320

team is always very interesting. I'm still very interested in what I'm doing, to be able to, you know, help to guide the treatment of a patient. To be able to use that skills, and sometimes it's very difficult to determine what it is.

01:02:13.130 - 01:02:25.060

So, I become really good at that. You are able to help patient. So, that's all—it’s all about for a doctor. I see that's–that's really, really cool.

01:02:26.660 - 01:02:43.240

And how would you describe the working environment in Houston Methodist? Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, it’s really the dream place for me. I mean, it's–it's amazing—I thought about it. When I first came to United States, the first place I was—I came to the

01:02:43.240 - 01:03:01.270

medical Texas Medical Center, right–right nearby to R-Rice University. Texas Medical Center is—they call it is one of the biggest medical center in the world. And it—place—its hospital is also amazing, very nice hospital—to be able to work with a lot of world-class doctors,

01:03:03.750 - 01:03:17.730

and also surrounding me was a lot of really good pathologists, world-class pathologists. It’s–it’s–it’s great. And this–this place also has a lot of tradition for the specialty I'm in, the pathology.

01:03:18.000 - 01:03:35.430

We used to be the main teaching hospital for Baylor College of Medicine. But the nature of the pathology is so important, even though we separate from Baylor, we're still maintain that tradition of excellence in what

01:03:35.430 - 01:03:45.180

we do. We have a [unintelligible] place. I mean, not only the hospital, but also the people around me. We have—I have some senior colleagues. I work for—with them for 20 years.

01:03:45.880 - 01:04:03.180

Have subsequently—have a younger–younger staff members—were able to hire them, come join us. Because it's such a good place, the people we get I think are really, I mean, they're all good people. Very, very good people, very dedicated doctors.

01:04:04.690 - 01:04:20.440

Very skillful, very knowledgeable. One of the things I want to say about this place is most of the people who get hired in our hospital, we really know and know about them. You are either trained as a resident or fellow, or you graduated from Baylor

01:04:20.440 - 01:04:33.600

College of Medicine. So we really know about you. Being a pathologist–a pathologist is very relatively small specialty. So, how well you do, what kind of person you are, how good are you are, people really know about you.

01:04:34.740 - 01:04:52.870

[laughs] So, yeah, it's a–it's a really–really amazing place to work. I'm very fortunate to be able to work here. Great. And I also like to ask what are your thoughts about the number of Asian doctors in America?

01:04:53.600 - 01:05:09.180

And what about the number of Chinese doctors? Uh, yeah. Uh, there is a—when we talk about Asian doctor and Chinese doctor, there's–there's two–there's two categories—there are–there

01:05:09.180 - 01:05:26.410

are two categories. You can–you can sep–separate them into different–different categories. One category is—I’m talking about—I am a foreign medical graduate. I’m a Chinese medical graduates, here practice medicine, become a doctor in United States. So–so–so there's one called foreign medical graduates, and it also, of course,

01:05:28.940 - 01:05:42.920

the American medical graduates. There are Asian or Chinese descent, like my son or my daughter. Both of them are what will be—they’re doctors. I didn't tell–I didn't tell you about my–my–my son and daughter.

01:05:43.150 - 01:05:56.100

[laughs] Both of my son and daughter are graduate from Rice, by the way. So, both of them graduate from Rice. My son graduate from—he–he was at Hanszen. My daughter was at Baker.

01:05:56.100 - 01:06:14.370

[laughs] So both of them has a great, great experience at Rice. Rice is a great university and we–we–we love the university. They–they love it. So, they are–so they're—alright I’m talking about—they are grad—they are going to be

01:06:14.410 - 01:06:29.500

medical doctors. My son is eye doctor, he's a ophthalmologist. My daughter is a second year at Penn—University of Pennsylvania, Perelmann School of Medicine in Philadelphia. She's a second year now. She's going to start second year.

01:06:30.100 - 01:06:43.760

So those are the categories I’m talking ‘bout. For us, that—the first generation doctors, there's a–there's a–there's a—I think there's some numbers. I know it’s up there.

01:06:43.940 - 01:06:59.370

It’s X—in a thousands, thousands of them, many from—graduate from different medical schools. Some are exactly, follow the pathway like I did: do some research, and took the test, and become a doctor in the United States. This group of people are very special.

01:06:59.490 - 01:07:11.890

I–I believe this group of people are very special. Many of them do quite well. They're very driven. They're—they do a good job. Many of them has research background.

01:07:14.610 - 01:07:32.690

They are able to go through their residency program, residency training and many of them practicing at an academic setting, higher percentage. Yeah, those group of people, I think, make a great contribution in the practice of medicine. Not only taking care of patients, but also

01:07:34.170 - 01:07:53.110

in–in–in–in–in academic—in teaching–teaching to medical students as well. That's nice. So, specifically in your workplace, are there a lot of Asian or Chinese

01:07:53.110 - 01:08:06.550

doctors? Yeah, there's–there's–there are a few. We have, uh—in–in the main hospital, we have four other than me. There's three other Chinese–Chinese medical graduate for–for

01:08:07.620 - 01:08:24.150

our graduates from China and then practice medicine here. They're in a different—they do their—they have their own specialties. They're all wonderful–wonderful pathologists, doing quite well. I believe I might be the first to get hired as

01:08:24.470 - 01:08:40.260

the–as the Chinese medical graduates here in-in this hospital. I like to believe that I'm doing quite—I’m doing okay, doing well. So they, you know, they [laughs]

01:08:41.720 - 01:08:53.330

hire a few more possibly. Yeah, that's–that's very possible. [SS: Yeah.] And that's also, like, college admission process also do that.

01:08:53.330 - 01:09:10.320

Yeah, that's–that's–that's true. Each of us carry—I mean, right or wrong, they carry—each of us carry a brand with you. For example, you have—I mean, you have certain graduate from certain school.

01:09:10.320 - 01:09:25.790

It's not right all the time, right? You graduate from certain schools and do well and then you already get on—you get associated with? No, you still have to look at each person as an individual. But sometimes, where you come from, it does carry with you.

01:09:26.830 - 01:09:40.440

Yeah. And being an Asian American, Do you sometimes feel that you have to work extra hard to earn your recognition, the respect? Uh, can you repeat the question again?

01:09:41.010 - 01:09:58.030

Yeah, yeah, of course, being an Asian American, do you sometimes feel that you have to work extra hard to earn the recognition and respect, comparing to others? Uh, I

01:09:58.380 - 01:10:12.950

sometimes think about that. I'm not quite sure how do you define “work extra hard.” We—yeah, in general, I would say, probably.

01:10:13.090 - 01:10:33.270

Probably. Because you—before you become someone, people need to recognize that you are able to do the work, you're qualified to do the work. Yeah, because while it says obviously, the disadvantaged, or not disadvantaged, I guess

01:10:33.270 - 01:10:54.960

that one aspect define us is that as a foreign medical graduates, you—one sense people think about it, are you able to do you know, addition to do the work? Are you able to do it, and then you are able to communicate in the correct way? I mean, language is certainly an issue for–for many of us, at the–at the beginning.

01:10:56.740 - 01:11:08.440

You got–you gotta prove yourself. It’s not like you—I mean, I think everybody has to prove themselves. At the beginning, you've got to work extra hard. But I'm not sure they have to necessarily work extra hard.

01:11:09.220 - 01:11:27.250

I mean, the end result—at the beg—I mean peop—you need to show what you can do. You probably will, but you know, you just have to prove that you–you can do an adequate job, you can do good work. Yeah, I don't–I don't think necessarily have to work extra hard.

01:11:28.230 - 01:11:38.990

You just have to prove yourself. If you are lacking, your communication skills are not that good, you have to—yeah, there's something you have to work hard, right? If your writing is not very good, you have to work extra on your writing.

01:11:40.510 - 01:11:57.900

Right? If you're a slow person, you have to work longer hours. Right? And so, yeah, I mean, I don't find that a particular problem in the field that I am. Some people works harder than me, I mean, there's–there are some–some people works

01:11:58.300 - 01:12:13.830

very, very hard, regardless of where you come from. I see. That makes sense. And if you're asked by college students aspiring to become a doctor, how would you

01:12:14.380 - 01:12:27.500

answer that? Yeah. Uh, yeah, I actually [laughs]. So being–being the parents of two–two doctors, I mean, I actually know about that people ask me this question a lot.

01:12:28.070 - 01:12:40.780

And I actually coaching some of the undergraduates, too—who are interest in–in our doctors. There's–there's a few things. First, we have to truly believe that you want to become doctors, and you have a good

01:12:40.780 - 01:12:56.660

reason to believe they—you want to be a doctor. You want to do something, to become something for–for true reason. So you have to determine that's the case. If you–if you're not, you don't have to force by anybody, by parents, by your

01:12:56.660 - 01:13:08.480

peers, or anybody like that. So you got to, mean eventually, whatever you do in your future, you got to determine that this is something I like to do. It’s enjoyable, I feel fulfilled.

01:13:09.620 - 01:13:30.840

So, I think the next lesson, the number one thing, you got to be really—start to experience, to take some—do whatever you want, and just get some experience. What that thing you want to be, what won't be like, what it will be like. Being a doctor, you know, you can–you can–you can by talking to me,

01:13:30.840 - 01:13:44.550

or going to the hospital and talk to someone. Participate some lectures and see people what they say about–about being a doctor, what doctors are like. Doctors are not one job.

01:13:44.550 - 01:13:59.490

There's many, many jobs in—within doctors. So find out—figure out this is something you want to do is the number one, most important step. I believe you got to figure that out.

01:13:59.820 - 01:14:14.430

Don't let anybody force you one way or another. You have to truly and genuinely like it. And then you are, I mean, once you decide this is something I want to do, then, you know there's a certain things you need to do.

01:14:15.520 - 01:14:31.430

It’s—find pathways and what do you have to do in–in–in–in schools. I mean, I would like to say doctor is a great job, obviously. It's very, I mean, it's very rewarding job. In addition, I mean, you wrote it was scary.

01:14:31.470 - 01:14:49.740

It’s true. You got a stable job, you got good income after you graduated. But it's also it's a very—it’s a long—it’s a very long education, taking care of patients need a lot of knowledge, need a lot of skills, is highly specialized. So, it's a very privileged job as well.

01:14:50.700 - 01:15:02.880

As you know, United States in this particular respect, it’s–it’s very well-respected job. It’s–it is true, yeah. Yeah, I see.

01:15:03.610 - 01:15:21.790

And also, it seems that you have mentored a lot of Asian students. [SS: Mhm.] And how do you think the current administration's policy may impact the attraction of talents from other countries to the United States?

01:15:23.250 - 01:15:37.760

Well, there's a lot of stuff going on. Right now, in particularly w-w-with China. I truly believe—I trul—I think, I hope, this is a temporary period.

01:15:38.490 - 01:15:54.660

I hope their relationship will work out well, soo-soon, not too far. I don't think we should be like this for–for a long time. You should–should work out, I would expect in the next few years, it should work out

01:15:54.840 - 01:16:03.990

exactly. Wh-where we want to go. There are some smart people. I mean, I think they–they should make a good decision. I think the students from China—the development

01:16:06.290 - 01:16:21.270

of both United States and China are mutually beneficial. I hope this–this communication can open. Once, maybe in the future, and China development well, and there's more American students go to China, so.

01:16:22.750 - 01:16:38.340

and the American university that present, of course, is there are—I mean, well–well-rounded institutions and higher education. Rice University, obvious, it’s a lot of premiere institutions and good college and good—I mean. It’s take a long time to have a good universities.

01:16:39.210 - 01:16:51.280

At the moment, of course, I hope they are still open to the Chinese students in different levels. [YY: Yeah.] I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. Yeah, that's great.

01:16:52.070 - 01:17:08.960

And we've noticed that Texas Medical Center has lost a number of talented Chinese scientists and medical doctors in the past few years over concerns about Chinese data's–data theft. So, how concerned—are you concerned about this

01:17:10.450 - 01:17:28.870

situation, and how do you think might be [cuts out] to address this concern? Ah, yeah, I certainly heard–certain heard things about that. I mean, again, I think the transition per—is a–is a adjustment period of time.

01:17:30.510 - 01:17:45.960

There's a–there are lessons to be learned from–from individuals, from the institutions. At the moment, I think that there is some–there's some—I mean, I personally think there's some overreaction.

01:17:46.150 - 01:18:08.310

There's not—there are very—there–there's over-overcorrection of the policies. I think also—depends on who you are. Individually, you have to, you know, you have to do according to the rules by–by your–by your

01:18:08.310 - 01:18:23.480

institutions, right. Again, as the relationship between–the relationship between United States and China improve, I hope this is–this is going to settle down certain levels, people know what to do—what’s–what's the right thing to do.

01:18:25.690 - 01:18:43.200

Right now, it's definitely not the best situation until things settle down. You–You just got to be—do things according to your local rules, where you are. I see. Yeah.

01:18:43.200 - 01:18:53.560

Let’s [SS: Yeah, try to avoid—] hope that things will get better. Yeah, try to avoid misunderstanding. Communication, right? And do the right thing, I guess.

01:18:57.800 - 01:19:15.280

Yeah. So um, also, I've noticed that you're—you have been invited to speak at numerous conferences, and a number of them are overseas, and the most recent one this year is online.

01:19:15.730 - 01:19:34.660

So how–how do you think this situation will change post-COVID and how it may impact the valuable in person experience for your particular field? Yeah, I—because of my special expertise in genital urine pathology, I

01:19:35.160 - 01:19:57.830

mean, yeah, I got invited to–to–to speak in–in–in different societies and different universities over the last–over the last few years. Yes, I did give–I did give online talk on pathology diagnosis, in—with–with, I believe the recent one is the

01:19:58.140 - 01:20:09.760

Chinese—one of the Chinese medical schools. I think communication is promoted. It is good for the medical care all over the–all over the world.

01:20:11.010 - 01:20:26.170

Again, I think settle down, I think this communication is going to continue, and it is good for–it's good for everyone. It's good for all the societies. The things you learn from one country, can you share with other people, and the good

01:20:26.170 - 01:20:44.540

practices can be share among all countries. During the last 20 years, I see a tremendous growth—tremendous advancement of the pathology in China. And then obviously, the practice and pathology in America is–is far advanced 20

01:20:44.540 - 01:21:02.350

years ago. Now, they're certainly catching up. And also they're producing results where it can be shared around the world. And I certainly very, I mean—I’m—I promote this collaboration, hope I can make contributions to–to–to–to the

01:21:03.360 - 01:21:19.970

practice of pathology and in medicine in general. I see. Yeah. And also, something else about COVID. Since you grew up in Hubei province, and you're also a

01:21:20.170 - 01:21:33.470

professional in the medical field, what was your reaction during the COVID outbreak? Well, very tiring, uh, very, you know. Very, I mean, it's distressed.

01:21:34.200 - 01:21:51.630

We see the reaction from different—I mean it’s—the infectious disease epidemic, or pandemic, is–is a huge, huge problems. You can see the damage it caused to the humankind all over the

01:21:51.630 - 01:22:09.050

world, and it’s still raging, and it’s still going on. I think we—I think human society have to work—has to work together. It’s—we’re living in one place. We are, I mean, we're in different countries, but we really live in one–one

01:22:10.220 - 01:22:27.820

home. You can–you can see it from far away, you know, we're in a different hou—I mean, we're–we're–we're in a different bedrooms. So, we gotta–we gotta use the best–best practice, best science. Share among different countries.

01:22:30.080 - 01:22:44.630

How to–how to–how to treat a disease, how to–how to prevent a disease. Learn from–learn–learn from each other. It's going to take a long time. It is very distressing.

01:22:46.190 - 01:23:01.580

The China—they have their way of doing—to deal with the–the pandemic their way, and America have a different way as well. We can see the–we can see the result.

01:23:02.890 - 01:23:22.280

There is–there's no best way, there's a better way, or so—I think a reasonable scientist or medical scientists, we have to come—as a society, we have to come to a–come to a conclusion what we want to do is the best.

01:23:22.280 - 01:23:36.220

The end result is that we want to protect–we–we have to protect our people, protect–protect our people. That's–that's the most important. And pandemic is a disease of all the world.

01:23:37.870 - 01:23:56.670

The disease–the disease one place—if we don't eradicate or do not control it, it’s going to–it’s going to eventually come back to you. So you know, it’s that difficult period of time. Well, each is family.

01:23:56.670 - 01:24:07.890

I think America is a family, China is a family, they take care of their own, but eventually we have to take our self. We have to take care of each other in the end, otherwise we're in trouble.

01:24:11.610 - 01:24:23.900

I see. Yeah, I agree. And do you have family members in Hubei or people that you know, and [SS: Yeah.] so how was their day life

01:24:24.570 - 01:24:40.510

impacted during the first outbreak? Yeah. Uh, my–my parents–my parents both–both of them died—my father died few years ago. My mom died much younger when I was in college.

01:24:41.230 - 01:24:57.520

Yeah, but my brother and sister and their families are still in my home-hometown, in Hubei province. They are running small business. They are okay. Obviously, affect them quite a bit, they have to listen to the government,

01:24:58.640 - 01:25:14.830

quarantine. Initially very–very strict quarantine for a few months. Now, I think they—I mean, I have monthly or weekly conversation with them. They are–they’re–they're certain—they’re okay, their–their–their infection rate is much, much, much, much lower.

01:25:14.870 - 01:25:30.040

They have to worry too much about it. But in general, I can say that a Chinese attitude are much more—this—they are more scared of this. More than–more than people—more than American people.

01:25:30.560 - 01:25:51.370

So that’s, in general, in my opinion, there are—for a highly infectious diseases, it's helpful to be afraid, right? If you are not afraid, you know, you're going to continue to spread. So, I think they're okay, in China.

01:25:53.280 - 01:26:09.070

Here, is take time. I hope it’ll get better. Yeah, I see. Um, so have you experienced

01:26:09.120 - 01:26:23.310

any Asian hate crimes since the COVID outbreak, or have you heard of any around you? Yeah. I'm—of course–of course, I am in a very excl–excluded background in the hospital.

01:26:24.080 - 01:26:46.770

No, I have not heard or experienced any hate crime myself. But I certainly heard a lot from the media. And my—I–I have not heard any friends was being–was being harassed or, you know, being treated because of the

01:26:46.770 - 01:27:04.850

COVID. No, only see it from the media. Okay, and what is your attitude towards that? I think the ra—I mean, and America is a great country.

01:27:06.580 - 01:27:26.320

We—mean, we–we proud of ourselves to be respect of each other and a crime against any–any–any–any race or any–any group of people are–are–are not a–not a—they’re

01:27:26.320 - 01:27:40.660

not–they're not–not a good thing in America. And we–we not to be like that. I certainly would hope that–that political environment, the media, the propaganda will–will–will come back

01:27:41.830 - 01:27:54.000

to–to–to–to normal I hope—America–America is a great country because the tolerance, because of—we are multi-race, multi-ethnicity countries. I hope this will continue. Hopefully, this is nothing.

01:27:55.240 - 01:28:05.360

So, what—we will see. It’s a problem. I know this is a problem. Yes, yeah.

01:28:05.530 - 01:28:15.970

So, then we will move to some questions about your family, [SS: Mhm.] and we might go–go a little bit over time. Is that okay for you? No problem.

01:28:15.970 - 01:28:26.850

I have–I have time. I have time today. [laughs] Okay, cool. Thanks. And, um, is your wife also a medical doctor?

01:28:27.680 - 01:28:42.100

Yes. It’s—she–she–she was. She–she is. When I met her in Beijing, she–she also graduated from medical school, and it’s actually called Beijing Medical University. It’s one of the top medical university in China, of course.

01:28:42.910 - 01:28:57.930

Yeah, she worked in the hospital—in Beijing hospital. Yeah, she's a medical doctor, but since she joined me, she–she worked in different places. Initially at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Medical Center, later NIH.

01:28:58.500 - 01:29:16.370

And also, when I was a resident in Pennsylvania State University, she has been working as a research assistant and research associate in—yeah, as a researcher for–for a long time. She [laughs] she, of course, take care of my–my son and

01:29:16.370 - 01:29:33.190

daughter. Yeah, so for your children, since both of their parents are working in the medical field, and you are—I assume that you both of you

01:29:33.190 - 01:29:44.360

are busy. So how were—how well-adapted are them to your busy lifestyle? Yeah. Uh, yeah.

01:29:44.830 - 01:30:00.370

Actually, my–my–my wife never took the board—she didn't–she didn't take the–take the test and become a resident, so she was always a researcher. So–so her time is relati—she is always, you know. She–she has a relatively regular schedule.

01:30:01.710 - 01:30:20.200

So, was not too bad—I think—I do–I do believe the take care of–of kids are–are very demanding, and it's very important. I mean, you don't want it to—I mean, there's nothing important, in my, what I think—there's nothing important to interact with kids when they're

01:30:20.200 - 01:30:37.050

younger. Everything what they become is–is because what you—what–what–what that interaction comes from. It’s their first—particularly before primary school. That's what I believe. The price of—primary school will–will

01:30:37.050 - 01:30:54.020

determine how–how [laughs] will do later in life. Because they start have their own habit, they–they're curious about learning. So all–all are developed at a young age. And how confident they are, and whether they believe in themselves, and their study

01:30:54.020 - 01:31:10.610

habit are all at the beginning. I think their primary school is already have the shape. So yeah, I—it’s–it’s really important. No matter how busy we are, if you got kids, you got to spend a

01:31:10.680 - 01:31:21.440

lot of time with them when you—spend a lot of time with them when they're younger. It’s really, really important. It’s a–it's a lot of fun, too [laughs]. [technical problems]

01:31:22.170 - 01:31:36.670

Yeah. So are there any memorable moments that that you or your wife are tending your children as well as you’re pressed with deadline-driven projects?

01:31:37.540 - 01:31:59.400

Oh. Uh, no, I mean, I think my wife certainly did the most the load—of the caring for them. We never—I think I—she—we never allow—well, it’s

01:32:01.610 - 01:32:15.230

so overwhelming that we cannot take care of them. I don't mean, I mean, we have a lot of memorable moment where those are all memorable. Which–which are—which I like—which we like, where

01:32:17.470 - 01:32:34.930

it's never get to a moment where it's too overwhelming, we cannot take care of them. I see. Yeah. And what is your—what is you and your wife’s teaching philosophy to your children?

01:32:36.650 - 01:32:53.520

Yeah. I–I like to say my wife did most of the work and being—being–being loving like any parents do. But there are certain interactions, certainly, mean, I see or I mean, I

01:32:53.520 - 01:33:06.670

think—I would like to say I did something right and correct. And they are becoming very—[laughs] do what they're doing, enjoy what they're doing. I like to say we did good job, and my wife certainly made the biggest contribution.

01:33:07.150 - 01:33:28.020

As a person, as a–as a dad, I like seeing my—I did–I did learn a lot things from my–my father. I think the most important thing is to–is to when they're younger, to–to by our interactions by–by

01:33:28.020 - 01:33:42.330

our daily work is to make them feel confident about themselves. I mean, I always–I always say the kids need to be confident about what they do, what they are, who they are.

01:33:42.330 - 01:33:58.960

They're good at something, I mean, usually kids will be different. I think one of the main, I mean, one main thing, is by any kind–by all any kind of things you do with–with the kids, is to make them—the—to believe in themselves.

01:33:59.300 - 01:34:15.030

That's one of my the things my father—I think the one—I talk about that all the time, is my–my father make me feel that I'm special. He make me that I can do things I want to do. If I put things—if–if I want to do something, if

01:34:15.030 - 01:34:31.530

I put my mind into it, I can do it. So those–those are—when you're younger, there's a lot of things like that. You wanted to all the interaction with them is that you make them to believe that if they try it, they are able to accomplish it.

01:34:31.530 - 01:34:45.520

Sometimes the—there are setbacks, and then you try it a different way. But if they like it, they keep practicing, or you try a different way or try different times, and they can do it. So, make the kids feel comfortable.

01:34:45.520 - 01:35:02.510

Make–make the kids feel confident about themselves. I feel, mean, I–I feel it is a critical part. [laughs] Make them enjoy what they're doing, I guess. Yeah, that's great.

01:35:03.610 - 01:35:19.150

And do you have any—did you have any expectations for them when they were young? Ah, certainly, I think like many parents, we do have an expectation of our kids, particularly for, you know, for where

01:35:19.150 - 01:35:34.620

we're come from, as grew up as kids, we have expectations. Well, we expect them to do well in school. [laughs] The how—how to get there, and you know, just and then you help them.

01:35:34.910 - 01:35:54.630

You–you know, you watch you watch how they grow. Right? If they're, I mean, different kids had their different pace. We certainly have some expectations, but you have to adjust, you know, what they're doing. Is they're all—is there—each of the kids have their own

01:35:54.630 - 01:36:07.590

pace. It’s their own–their own life. The only thing that they can do is to help them when they need it, and give them the confidence, and believe in them. And when they're down, you have to motivate them.

01:36:09.130 - 01:36:24.430

When they're down, they don't have down all the time. You just have to you know, they—if they're doing good, and you see what is what they're doing good. And then I mean, I mean you have to—I—another thing I like to say: life is fun.

01:36:24.640 - 01:36:38.200

You know, just you can do it, if you put your mind in it. Yeah, that's nice. Um, do your son and daughters speak Mandarin?

01:36:38.620 - 01:36:54.600

Uh, they can understand. My son—I think my daughter speak more, speak a little more. They–they go to the Chinese class when they were younger,

01:36:54.930 - 01:37:06.840

in primary school. They—I don't think they went in high school—is getting too busy, they didn't go–go there. My daughter actually taking the Chinese class during high school. So she–she's—the both of them can understand.

01:37:07.850 - 01:37:24.920

But speak is a bit of a problem. Okay, so your, um, daily communication is most-mostly English, right? Uh, I would say 80, 90 percent of English and maybe 10, 15 percent are–are

01:37:24.960 - 01:37:38.910

in Chinese. [laughs] I see. Yeah. So how are you trying to do—pardon? [SS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.] Yeah, so um,

01:37:39.550 - 01:37:55.010

how have you and your wife been passing on the value and heritage of Chinese culture to your children? Uh, well, it's, I guess the—I mean, I don't know—we–we don't—I mean, how do you define that?

01:37:58.940 - 01:38:15.840

It’s a–it’s a—we–we, unintentionally, by everyday interactions, who we are, how we do things, how we behave. I think a lot of it is a role model, right? How you respond to your career, how you–how you work, how you

01:38:15.840 - 01:38:30.600

enjoy your life, how you interact with your friends, how you interact with your neighbors, how you participate each of the activities. So, what do you value the most? Do you help other people, do you—you know, so?

01:38:31.990 - 01:38:40.340

It's really by role modeling. I'm not sure that I have anything in particular. They are watching. I think our kids are watching us. They're listening to us.

01:38:40.700 - 01:38:51.880

It's by daily interactions. So those are, you know, [laughs] that's, I guess that's how we do it. We don't give them classes. You know, we–we take them to China.

01:38:51.990 - 01:39:05.360

We take them when they're–when they were younger, we take vacations in China and see our relatives and friends and grandpas. Yeah. So that–that's probably about it. They read themself about it.

01:39:05.360 - 01:39:17.880

They interact with their peers, many of them that are Chinese as well. So, yeah, is that–is that–is that–is that composition–is a–a compilation versus path, family, peer, pressure, daily interaction. Yeah.

01:39:18.420 - 01:39:33.050

Yeah, I agree. Watching is very important for [SS: Right?] kids. Watching from—is how your parents interact with each other, how they interact with the–with the surroundings, right?

01:39:34.300 - 01:39:47.820

And how they react when in your daily work, in your daily interactions. How you interact with issues, the situations. Kids are smart. They absorb. You think they are not, but they are [laughs].

01:39:55.730 - 01:40:11.350

Yeah. So um, do your family still celebrate Chinese traditional holidays? Uh, a little–a little bit. A little bit. Not–not–not in a–in a way, as we were

01:40:12.000 - 01:40:33.280

in–in China. Certainly, Chinese New Year we do celebrate, but now we're in different cities. It's going to be-become difficult in the–in the future. Yeah, so um, do you sometimes engage with the local

01:40:33.880 - 01:40:47.320

Chinese community? Uh, yes. Uh, your–your friends, your circle are defined by who—you know, you are by where you–where you come from,

01:40:48.990 - 01:41:05.470

school you graduated from, and your work environment, your neighbors. Yes. Not–not a lot. But certainly our interactions a lot with our Chinese friends, or the people of Chinese descent.

01:41:05.500 - 01:41:20.400

I see. Um, does your family cook Chinese dishes often? All the time. [laughs] [YY: That’s great.] All the time.

01:41:20.400 - 01:41:34.840

I try—my wife was, yeah, cook Chinese food all the time. Pretty much, well, I would say 95 percent. We rarely eat non-Chinese food. Not very—I mean, I'm not very good at—with–with American food

01:41:36.620 - 01:41:49.250

[laughs]. What are some dishes that your wife often cook? Oh, just the–just the ordinary vegetables, you know, shrimp,

01:41:49.250 - 01:42:02.350

fish. Some, you know, just simple thing.. Yeah, simple but delicious.

01:42:02.430 - 01:42:11.810

The [SS: Yeah] taste of home. That's–that's–that's–that's–that's right. And your diet—the way that—the–the food you like, it also change a bit, when you’re–you’re getting older.

01:42:12.210 - 01:42:29.780

The younger things you like to eat and then we are getting older, you like to eat a certain things a little different. Some things you like you cannot eat ma—you eat as much as before. It’s not—mean, you still like it, it’s not, I mean—you can—just can't eat as much as

01:42:29.800 - 01:42:38.130

you used to when you're younger. Right now, the problem is that we have too many choices. [laughs] We have too many choices. It's hard—it’s worked—it’s getting more difficult.

01:42:40.650 - 01:42:58.210

Yes. Um, can you mention one or more food that you miss from your hometown when you were young? Uh, I guess the [laughs]. Yeah, in Wuhan, there's a–there's a–there's a food you eat every morning.

01:42:58.210 - 01:43:10.370

It's called re—called re gan mian. I don't–I don't know—would’ve ever heard of it. It’s a noodle dish in the morning. It was just something—it’s something you–you like,

01:43:11.740 - 01:43:27.960

when you–when you are younger. Yeah, I also like–like re gan mian very much. [SS: Oh, you do [laughs]]. Yeah. I have friends from Wuhan, and I've heard that there

01:43:28.090 - 01:43:39.380

are–there are people just carrying breakfast as they walking to their workplaces. That's–that’s right. Yeah, we eat it every morning. We never get tired of it.

01:43:39.840 - 01:44:00.860

Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so I believe I have no more questions for now, and thank you so much for taking your time to participate in the interview. Absolutely. Thank you very much for giving me the chance to

01:44:00.860 - 01:44:13.420

think–to think about my life [laughs]. I have many—I mean, I–I like to think. I mean, sometimes it's very weird when you're getting to a certain age, you think you're young, but you’re actually is getting older.

01:44:14.890 - 01:44:31.290

I think I'm young, but actually I am—there’s a lot of things I wanted to do. I certainly hope I can continue to do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what are–what are some things that–that you're aspiring to do?

01:44:32.420 - 01:44:48.840

Uh, really, we–we–we think about it, we are young, you are ju-just to find your place in the world, you find a job. When to a certain point, like, you know, to a certain point, like an older, kids grow

01:44:48.840 - 01:45:03.460

older. You want to enjoy the world, you want to—call it my hobbies. And one thing is I think more and more about is the contribute to–to other people, right? You make contributions or service to other people.

01:45:03.930 - 01:45:18.850

I mean, we're talking about your immediate family, your–your–your–your–your friends—what you’re able to help. You’re—to be able to impart what you accomplished to other people, the knowledge.

01:45:19.320 - 01:45:36.870

For me, I like to teach more, because I teach more to my residents and fellows. And of course, I also like to, I mean, being in the medical field or pay for—like I mentioned earlier, I–I give talks to

01:45:36.870 - 01:45:50.310

people who are interested in medicine as a career. So, I would like to continue to do that. Yeah, I guess, think about contributions, the service to people around–around me in a different sort of setting.

01:45:51.590 - 01:46:04.340

Immediate family, friends, neighbors, Asian, Chinese descent, or American society general. This is—America has very generous to me. I'm here more than 30 years.

01:46:05.730 - 01:46:21.220

The—I’m very grateful. I live a good life. So, they opened the possibility for me. Yeah, very grateful. Yeah, that's great.

01:46:21.650 - 01:46:37.110

And I also thought about one question that I hadn’t asked. Are there any hobbies that you would do outside of work? Uh, [laughs] I

01:46:37.430 - 01:46:48.620

always like to listen to music. I play in-instrument, Chinese instrument. I take a lesson a few times. I don't know what I'm going to do. I like to sing, I like to sing songs, too.

01:46:48.770 - 01:47:03.900

The Chinese songs. I practice in the English song as well. I don't know. I like sports. I like to watch sports, too. We’ll see, as we get a little older, less amount of work, and maybe I'll start to you know, just do more.

01:47:04.880 - 01:47:16.360

Maybe play my instrument and find a group where I can sing songs. Travel, something I always like to do. I'm not very good traveler. I get sick and carsick or airplane gets sick.

01:47:16.690 - 01:47:28.440

So, I like to go places, but I'm not very [laughs]—I’m not a great traveler. Yeah, I get it. What is the Chinese instrument that you play?

01:47:28.740 - 01:47:43.050

You heard of erhu? [YY: Yeah, that's really—a lot of people play that.] Yeah, yeah. I play when I was in the middle—high school, and play a little bit in college. Not very good.

01:47:43.720 - 01:48:00.140

I take lessons with a professional erhu player from–from–from Shanghai, here in Houston. But [laughs] I give it up because I cannot keep the schedule, I cannot practice pieces she liked me to practice.

01:48:01.060 - 01:48:14.330

Maybe I'll pick it up later [laughs]. I see. Yeah. And what are some of the Chinese songs that you listen to? Can you name some of the singers or song’s names?

01:48:15.160 - 01:48:29.390

Oh. Uh, it’s the songs when we were in colleges. You're—in graduate schools and colleges. Like, I don't know. I can think of a few people, may-maybe.

01:48:30.490 - 01:48:46.870

Cheung Ming-Man I guess is one person. Jiang Dawei. I don't know whether you know any—mean anything to you? But it's really much older generation [laughs] of people. I see, I see. But, yeah, that [SS: Some of the Hong Kong—] sounds cool.

01:48:47.430 - 01:49:01.260

Yeah, some of the Hong Kong singers or Taiwan singers, yeah. Yeah, I really hope that you can keep your passion on these and develop in the future. [laughs] Thank you.

01:49:02.490 - 01:49:02.620

Yeah.