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So today is Thursday, July 7, 2022. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Mr. Shoulong Zhou for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice. So to start from the very beginning, could you tell us where and when you were born?

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Yes, I was born in China, the city called Songzi, it's in Hubei province. I was born on February the 25th, 1988.

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And how would you describe the household that you grew up in? It's just my mom, my dad, and me. I'm the only kid of my family. That's cool. And could you describe the neighborhood and school district that you

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went to? Yeah, I–I lived at a school—well, not lived in the school, it's–it's—the school is the community, is the neighborhood, because my dad–my dad is an educator.

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So, you know, we lived in the school, there's–there's, you know, several buildings just dedicated to the faculty there. So we lived there, and the school I went, it's–it's not quite like the way we're going to school right here.

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It's–it's not kind of like school district. It's just, you know, the entire city, well it's not a big city, though. The–the–the city just have—they had, you know, several elementary school, middle school, high school. I just–I just–I just went, you know, wherever I

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should–I should go, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. [SZ: Uh huh.] Do you have, like, favorite memories of your childhood that you'd like to share? Or, like, favorite memories at school?

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Ah, that's a good question. I think it is—I think it's when I was young, I–I visited my grandma, grandmother's home. It's–it's kind of, like, now it's like three hours drive from where my parents lived.

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So I went there, it's a countryside, you know, the first time I was there, I heard that I was just—I got so excited, I–I was chasing the chickens, you know, the hens, and they were just, they're just flying anywh—everywhere. It's kind of big mess.

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But when I–when I kind of recall it, I don't have really clear memory on that, but, you know, when I kind of recall it, I just feel like that’s some, you know, really exciting and funny moment, to kind of—symbol of, you know, you know, just happy and free childhood.

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That sounds really fun. Chickens are very cute. [SZ laughs] And then moving on to your parents, where were your parents born, and what were their occupations?

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They were born in China as well. My–my mom was born in the city where I was born, my dad was born in a city kind of three hours away from where–where I was born. My dad, he–he was—he just–just

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retired, he was an educator, he taught a lot. And then he became a—he also–he also had some administrative, you know, positions over the decades. And my mom–my mom was a pharmacist, she worked at the public

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hospital in our town. Cool, do you feel like–like your father inspired you to choose the educator route, or was it your own decision? That's a quite interesting question, because, you know, because when I was

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very young, I've never thought about, you know, being an educator. I–I did not want to be a teacher, because I kind of saw my dad, you know, work hard, and it—you know, teachers do not get paid really well in China, or here as well, right? I'm like, no, I did not want to be a teacher.

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I–I—my major in college is in law, actually, because, you know, I was—I'm still interested in law. But somehow, I just, you know, encountered education. Then I found, hey, that's pretty cool.

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And I kind of developed some passion about it. And, you know, there is where—here is where I–I landed eventually, okay, in education. Kind of like repeating my dad, but not initially, you know, inspired by him, but kind of repeating what he's doing.

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And I enjoyed it, to be honest. That's cool, like, that’s cool that, like, both of you kind of, like, chose the same path even though you didn't mean to. [SZ: Yeah.] And what were some like important

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values or lessons that your parents taught you? Ah, I can't think of, like, kind of—I mean, I can't—it's hard to kind of summarize, like, “ABC,” what–what values, what things they

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taught me. I think it's more about, you know, details or–or, you know, nuances that they just deliver-delivered through our everyday life or conversation, right? For example, being honest.

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That's—my mom is always—my mom–my mom is really, you know, kind of strict on that. If I lied when I was young, it's–it’s—I'm gonna have—I would have some really bad consequences, right?

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And also, the value of education. That's—I believe for many, you know, Chinese or Asian families, that's the number one thing in their families, right? And, you know, they–they always encouraged me to go higher in terms of

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academia. And, you know, and the other thing is, I remember when I was young, there's—of course, there was no iPad, computer, stuff like that. But my dad has a lot of books. He had a lot of books, we had a–we had a room dedicated to–dedicated to books, and we

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got books everywhere at home. And that helped me develop some, you know, good reading habits. So, books are still my, you know, best companions in my now daily life, yeah. I think it's a lot, but it's–it’s just hard to name “ABC.” Yeah,

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it's more about, like, everyday life and conversation with them. Yeah, that's great. And did you grow up practicing, like, traditional Chinese holidays and customs with them as well? Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

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Lunar New Year, you know, Moon Festival, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you have, like, a favorite food that you used to eat? Or that you eat now?

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Favorite food? I’m–I’m–I’m—I love noodles. Like, my wife always says, “You can't survive without noodles.” I'm like, “Yeah, I can't–I can't survive without noodles.” [laughs] Have you ever eaten, like, the–like, the really long noodle?

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Like, it's supposed to symbolize, like, long life or something? Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. It's—to me, it's more like, you know, an old generation thing, like my grandparents.

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But to us, it's like, we know that that's a thing, right? But we don't really, you know, kind of put a lot of thoughts on that, which is, you know, we're just enjoying the food. [EM: Yeah.] Yeah, but, you know, interesting is—yeah, ‘cause my–my wife's mom, my mother in law, she really,

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you know, treat noodles, the long noodles, as a symbol of long living. Every birthday, every, you know, every time we have someone having a birthday, she would cook, you know, long noodles for them. Yeah, it's quite interesting.

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Yeah, it's definitely like a–like a symbolic thing. [SZ: Yeah, yeah.] Yeah. So, moving on to kind of your education. So, you attended Yangtze University for your bachelor's?

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And, like you said, you studied law. So, what kind of drew you first to that field? And did you enjoy your overall college experience? What is—uh, what? Sorry, can you repeat that?

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Yeah, so what drew you to the field of law? And did you enjoy your overall college experience? Uh-huh, yeah. I–I just—when I was in high school, I just felt like, you know, I wanted to do something related

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to–to, you know, to humanities, you know, to, you know, law, economics, stuff like that. I did not have a clear kind of map of what–what I wanted to do after graduation, but I feel like law was always something

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I–I was quite interested in. And, you know, yeah, then I just, you know, I just applied to the law school—not apply, I just, you know, chose to go to law school for my college. When I was in college, yeah, I enjoyed it very much.

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It’s definitely not like, you know, the college experience like you guys have in America, right? It's not—I would say the college I went to, it's—it was not quite hard. That gave me a lot of freedom to read, to just enjoy life, or to do

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part time jobs. Like, one of the part time jobs I did is to teach over the weekend. That's how I got into education. So I made a lot of friends, you know, I learned

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English a lot just by myself, using the free time, when I was in college. So yeah, I really enjoyed the four-year college in China, yeah. Very cool. And was Yangtze University, like, solely a law school, or was it—was that just—

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No, it's a big school. It's a big kind of—very comprehensive university. The–the law department is just a part of—just a department of the–of the university. Okay, that makes sense. [SZ: Yeah, uh-huh.] Yeah, and having attended higher education

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both in China and in the US at U of H, how would you compare your experiences between the two, and did you find the teaching philosophies to be different? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

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Of course, language, right? And also pedagogy is quite different. In China, I would say, not just in college, is–is the entire pedagogy is—mainly; I'm not saying every teacher, every student, right?

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Mainly, it is teacher centered. You got a lecture–a lecture, and you study, and then you go for the exam. That's pretty much it, right? But right here, when I was at U of H, it's all about seminars, right?

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You read, you gotta read a lot, you do your research, you prepare questions, you kind of—you have to, you know, deepen your understanding by a lot of approaches. Then, you come to the class, it's just, like, seminar, seminar, seminar. I was—struggled—I struggled a lot when I first got here, you know,

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entering the US, you know, classrooms, and it just took time for me to really get used to the–the pedagogy, the way of learning. Yeah, it's quite interesting. Yeah, that's probably the most, you know, shocking or uncomf-uncomfortable

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part for me, you know, in terms of comparing the–the Chinese classrooms versus the US college classrooms. Yeah, and, like, along a similar vein, in prepping high schoolers for college, what do you think are the pros and cons of, like, the Chinese versus American ways?

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Like, for—like, in China, there's like the national exam, and then in the US, it's a bit more holistic, and there's, like—you have to consider different things, like SAT, grades… Yeah, it's–it's—that’s a really good question, Emily. Yeah, I'm–I’m—I don't know.

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It's—so, first of all, I think is the systems are quite different, right? In China, for example, for me to get into a college, the only thing I needed to do was to prepare for my college entrance exam. You did good on it?

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Great, you go to a good school. You failed it? Sorry, you probably have no school to go to, or a second or third tier of–of college. That's where you could land, right?

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If you–if you did not do quite well on that. But right here, you know, the schools look at your SAT, your GPA, your personal statements, your recommendation letters, whatever. I don't see much thing to compare with in terms of that—the

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way it works. The ways that it works are so different. But I do see there's something that both, you know, Chinese students can learn from American students, American students can learn from Chinese students,

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is that, one thing, I have to say that, at least my experience, in China, the students are really resilient. Like, they complain—they don't–they don't complain. [laughs] Okay, they do complain, but not as much as right here.

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Right here, you can see that students say, “Oh, it is too much homework. Can I do this, do that,” you know? Sorry, there's no excuse you can give when you're—if you're in China, right? I'm not saying that's a bad thing to complain or to advocate for what you want.

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But I do see the resilience, the hard working, you know, value is really, really emphasized in Chinese education. On the other hand, what Chinese students can learn from American students is that students here in the US, they really know how to advocate for

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themselves. That's very, very important to me. One thing I disliked in my education experience is that I—like I said, probably students in China, they have too much resilience. They, yeah, they just, you know, go whatever they were told to do, right?

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That's not good in many of the ways. So I really wish—I'm also teaching Chinese students online. Sometimes I do some other, you know, cross cultural programs. I told the Chinese students, “Hey, guys, you guys are new generation, you cannot

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repeat what I experienced, or older generation have, in terms of education.” When you have a problem, for example, mental issues, mental health, right? Mental health was not even a thing when I was in school.

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But hey, if you have one, absolutely, 100%, you have to advocate for yourself. That's something I hope students in China, or kids in China, could learn from, like, from—students are doing really well right here. Well, not everybody, right?

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Just in general, yeah. Yeah, it's important to kind of break the cycle with the new generation. [SZ: Yeah, exactly.] But yeah, I definitely agree, there's pros and cons to each–each teaching method. [SZ: Uh-huh, yes.] So, what prompted you to move to

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the US to pursue your master's degree, and what also drew you over from law to educational psychology? Uh-huh. Okay, first, from China to here, I did not even think about that until I was a junior in

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college, because I had a part time job teaching English school, weekend English school, when I was in China, starting from my sophomore year. It's a–it’s a great, you know, English training school. I got a position there, I'm—I kind of—I was lucky to meet

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some of, you know, colleagues who, you know, had the experience learning abroad. No–no one was just saying, hey—I was actually preparing for my graduate–graduate school exams in China at that time. They were like, “Hey, have you ever thought about, you know, applying for, you know,

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applying out, like colleges in US, Canada, or European countries?” I was like, “That sounds quite interesting idea.” I was young, you know, really bold, I did some research, I'm like, “Okay, let me just give a shot.” And then I did more research, I talked to my family, and then, you know,

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I started to prepare for my TOEFL English exam, GRE, you know, and all the materials then. Yeah, I somehow—I landed at U of H, yeah. That’s–that’s kind of like, quick, you know, going

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over—going through of–of the experience. And education, like I said, yeah, I–I did not even think about, you know, being a educator or teacher when I was young. But—just because of the part time job, just, you know, my interest

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is my—my purpose of getting the teaching part time job when I was in college was to earn some extra cash. [laughs] And it–it–it turned out that it went pretty well, I feel like I kind of—it’s something I can do really, really well.

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And then, you know, the more you like it, the more you do it, you know, you just—sometimes, it just ended to be your–your life thing, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Little did you know, you’d become an educator for, like, your–your career.

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[SZ laughs] Yeah, so I know you described, like, the differences in teaching philosophies being kind of a shock to you. Could you describe, like, the overall experience moving from China to the US as a young adult who had, like, just graduated college?

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Mhm. First of all, absolutely, there are many, you know, big or small, cultural shocks when I first got here. Like I said, the teaching styles, right?

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And also even small things, like, I remember, one of the examples I give to my students a lot is that when you're–when you're in China, when you eat, right, a lot of Chinese people, they—you wouldn't–you wouldn't see them, you know, lick their fingers, for example.

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If the food is really good, they would lick their feet—ah, fingers. But right here, I mean—every here—right here, and—it's a normal thing. I do it a lot, you know, I—it just becomes a part of me as well. In China, if you do that, people will say you’re—you have to pay more attention to

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hygiene, that's what they say, right? [laughs] Yeah, it’s like small things, big things as well. And over the–over the 12 years that I've been here, it's—I got shocks.

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Still—I still got shocks, cultural shocks. For example, of course, it's more about cultural, more about society, more about, you know, the history of the country, right? For example, the anti-Asian, you know, hatred,

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hate crimes happen, you know, since the pandemic. That was a shock, you know, that actually has been driving me to read more, to know more–to know more about, you know, the history, to know more and more about, you know, what exactly

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does this country mean to everybody, right? To immigrants, to second–second–second generation immigrants, to leaves(?), to, you know, to white, to Black, to Asians. Yeah, it's—my experience is refreshed every day, I will say that.

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It refreshes every time I talk to, for example, you, to my colleagues, my students, it's refreshed every time I go to a seminar, workshop, or even it's refreshed every time I teach a lesson, have interaction with–with students, with colleagues.

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Yeah, it's–it's evolving, I would say that, yeah. Yeah, it seems like a constant, like, never ending kind of thing. [SZ: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.] And if you could offer advice to any other young adults who plan to start a life in another country, what would you say?

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I would say: be brave. Yeah, maybe just be brave. That's probably the first thing.

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‘Cause the first time you got to a new country, a new culture, there are a lot of unpredictable things. There are a lot of things you would feel uncomfortable with, there are a lot of, quote unquote, cultural shocks, right?

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But eventually, human beings are the same, right? And we have common language like smile, right? Like–like, you know, gestures and stuff like that. Keep that in mind, and also, be brave to try a lot of things.

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If you—I see many international students from, particularly from China, when they first got here, they don't have the courage to face a lot of challenges. They just try to find a way to avoid them.

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For example, focusing on computer games, locked up in their rooms, or, you know, not talk to, you know, others, except, you know, some—maybe friends who are also from China, and they speak Chinese every day, stuff like that. That's not a good way.

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If you really want to find a place in a foreign country, or, you know, really find connection with the—with–with another culture, or someone else, that's—just be brave. Just walk out. Just try a lot of things.

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Yeah, one thing I really appreciate that I did when I first got here, I tried a lot. I took many opportunities to walk out from my boundary, talk to people, applying jobs, you know, just, a bit by bit, getting to know more about my surroundings.

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Yeah, just yeah, just be brave, yeah. Walk out. Get out of your comfort zone, I should say that. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really good advice.

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[SZ: Thanks.] Yeah, and in, like, college, or in your master's program, did you have any professors or mentors who left a lasting impact on your life? Yeah, I do, I do.

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I—oh my gosh, it's been so long, but the department chair—I can’t—that's a shame. I couldn't remember his name. Oh, Dr. Olenchak!

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And I don't think he's–he's still at U of H. But he was very helpful. I enjoyed every lesson he taught. And he was just so kind, because I think he knew that I was new

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to this country, to this new program, everything was new to me. He was just so kind, responding all my, you know, all my emails, answering my questions, and sometimes just, you know, be generous to, you know–you know, to my probably not doing quite well in

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seminars or homework, stuff like that. He was very patient. You know, he's probably one of the–one of the best professors I ev—I have ever had when I was at U of H.

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Yeah, it was, you know, sometimes as a newcomer to this country, as an international student, like I said, it's just a lot of unpredictable things, just lot of unknown. You definitely—if–if someone, like, especially your teacher, your professor,

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showed you some kindness and understanding, and, you know–you know, patience, that would really make their day, the student’s day. Yeah, that's—yeah, I really appreciate him, yeah. Yeah, it's really important to have, like, a support system, especially if you're new to

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this country. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And I probably should have asked this–asked this earlier, but did you move with your parents? Or did you come alone?

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I come—I came here alone. Yeah, I came here with two luggages. That's it. I did not know anybody here. Well, I did–I did some research and got connected with

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some–some–some students who also came to U of H for grad programs, and also some church friends, before I landed here, but literally, I did not know anybody before I came here. That's a really scary move.

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See, that–that—yeah. When I was thinking about—this is quite interesting. I'm glad–I'm glad you mentioned that. When I'm thinking back right now, I was like, “How did I do that?” You know, without knowing anybody, just two luggages, I just got here.

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But at that moment, I guess I was—I–I felt like I was just bold, I was just brave, and just, you know, what the heck, I'm just going. I don't care whether or not I know anybody. I'm just going. Yeah, it's quite interesting.

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Yeah, yeah. I think, like, in the moment, sometimes you can be, like, “Yeah, let’s just do it!” [laughs] Yeah, yeah, you're just so focused on where—what you need to do, rather than, you

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know, getting scared, or afraid of, you know, the future. Right, yeah. [SZ: Yeah.] So moving on to your career. As a high school teacher at the Post Oak School, you teach a range of subjects, including Chinese, Asian studies, and global politics.

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So, what is it like juggling different curriculums? And could you walk us through a day in your life, or a day in your week? Yeah, of course. At Post Oak, our—we’re a pretty small school. I mean, in terms of the high school, we only have about

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90 students in total. So, you can see that it's like 20 to 25 students per class. Our schedule also is not scheduled as, you know, conventional schedule at public schools or big private schools as well.

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So, every day, my sche—okay, my schedule is different every day, over–over a week. For example, on some days, I would have full of classes, I probably—I would have, you know, the first and second hour Chinese,

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maybe third hour is prep hour, after lunch I have two hours of global politics, last hour, I would–I would have another Chinese class. And maybe another day, I–I was—it’s—it probably is not as loaded as, you know, the previous day.

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I’m probably going to have one hour, for example, global politics, and then the rest of the time, I can just prepare for my classes. We—at Post Oak, we–we just have more—well, not actually—just other opportunities

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to explore by yourself, or explore with the students—what you want to do, right? For example, the trips. We have A and J-Terms, like, many terms that–that the students can—or the teacher can choose to, you know, lead the students to a, let's

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say, a trip. This year, we’re going to San Francisco. That—we would take a lot of time to prepare for it. And, yeah, we can use our time to do that. Yeah, but in terms of curriculum prep, it could

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be just individual work. For example, me, I'm the only teacher teaching Chinese Mandarin at Post Oak High School. And I–I use a kind of well-established online curriculum called Discovery—"Discovering Chinese.” Of course, I

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do tweaks, and also, I develop my own kind of style or practice for my students. For global politics, or some other humanities classes, I usually, you know, team with another teacher or some other teachers.

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We’ll work together, just, you know, put what we know or want to do together, and then develop a curriculum for our students. So, it depends, and also, we have—because we're an independent school, we kind of have a certain amount of freedom to, you know,

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kind of do what we think best fit for our students, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, like, similar to what you're saying, so Post Oak is Montessori, so, yeah, it promotes, like, more freedom for students.

00:28:40.620 - 00:28:54.210

[SZ: Yes.] Was that an important factor for you when you were deciding, like, where to teach? Or how did you decide that Post Oak was the one for you? Oh, that's a really good question. Yes, I would say the freedom, the Montessori way of teaching and learning, is one of

00:28:55.010 - 00:29:12.590

the main factors I chose to work at Post Oak. I–I had experience teaching math, in middle school—charter middle school in Arizona, I think that’s year of 2015 to 2016. It's quite interesting. They—it’s–it's a charter school.

00:29:12.980 - 00:29:28.270

I think they're one of the largest charter schools in the country, right now. They're just—they're developing so fast. And I had some connection with them, I helped–I helped them building, you know, the cross cultural programs.

00:29:28.270 - 00:29:45.770

They were like, “Hey, how—do you want to come to here to work with us, teach with us?” I'm like, “Sure.” So, I went there, I was brought there initially to teach a language, but they were like, “We probably don't have that much interest in learning Chinese language, but we have high demand in math teachers.” I had never taught math

00:29:45.800 - 00:30:02.030

before, but they were like, “Do you want to try it?” I’m like, “Sure.” Then they sent me to do the evaluation or qualification exams, and then I passed, and then I ended up, you know, teaching a year of math there for a year. That's a traditional public school.

00:30:03.810 - 00:30:21.510

The working environment and the pedagogy are so different than Post Oak. And then I decided to come–come back to Post Oak, just one year after teaching there. I'm like, no, this is—because at that

00:30:21.510 - 00:30:34.110

school, I just–I just repeated everything. I just repeated, for example, a lesson, right? Seven or six times a day, you just repeat giving that lesson: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, okay, done.

00:30:34.110 - 00:30:53.440

Then grading homework, then you go home, probably do some, you know, extra work. But at Post Oak, because it's Montessori, because the school encourages both the teachers and students to follow their passion, right? I got a lot of freedom, I got a lot of, you know, kind of

00:30:54.060 - 00:31:10.840

flexibility to work with my students, what they want; well, what I would suggest them, “Hey, probably, you may want to try this.” The work amount is not as–as little as, you know, the—I mean, it's–it's still a lot of work at Post Oak.

00:31:11.000 - 00:31:25.980

But as I describe it to other people, you're creating every day. Instead of you're repeating things every day, you're creating. So that's one of the major factors that I–I really enjoy teaching at Post Oak.

00:31:28.710 - 00:31:43.030

Cool, it sounds like it lets you be a bit more flexible in your teaching [SZ: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.] And I also saw that it teaches kids ranging from 14 months old all the way through 12th grade. So is that all in the same building?

00:31:43.030 - 00:31:56.980

Or how does that work? At Post Oak, we have two campuses. The middle school and the high school is–is in Museum District, it’s pretty close to Rice. And our—we call it main campus, or Bissonnet Campus,

00:31:57.450 - 00:32:10.490

is housing, you know, 14 months to—up to elementary, to primary—I mean, elementary. Yeah, so, yeah. And our campus is only middle school and high school.

00:32:12.010 - 00:32:25.150

I see. And do you ever teach middle schoolers? Or do you stick just to high school? Just the high school. I see. And also, having been at Post Oak since 2016, how do you think your

00:32:25.300 - 00:32:40.960

teaching style has evolved through the years? Hmm. I couldn't give a very, you know, brief or, you know, like a summary, you know, of how it evolves.

00:32:41.040 - 00:32:57.400

But if I kind of recall it, I can definitely see the self-development, right? The first time I walked into the classroom—well, actually, I started to work with them from the year of 2012, the year the high school was

00:32:57.400 - 00:33:16.810

established. But I was working as a contractor, coming back, you know, move—I mean, relocating–relocating back from Arizona, I became kind of their direct employee. Even then, I'm thinking about the first class, I walk into the classroom, meeting

00:33:16.810 - 00:33:32.330

with the students, and now, you know, when I walked into a classroom, it's–it’s quite different, you know, your mental state, you know, the–the confidence. You're just feeling like every day, you're more prepared than the previous day, right?

00:33:32.870 - 00:33:50.550

Because teaching is like any other job. It's–it's the more–the more you do, the better you get, right? And it's, yeah, I—it's hard to summarize that–that–that—summarize into ABC, what I—how I–how I evolved, but yeah,

00:33:51.820 - 00:34:06.040

it's definitely—I would just say, I'm just getting better and better every day, probably every semester, yeah. That's great. It sounds like teaching is kind of like a muscle. You just have to keep, like, working it out.

00:34:06.040 - 00:34:14.700

Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. And kind of related, what is one thing that you wish more, like, new-coming teachers would know?

00:34:19.670 - 00:34:36.140

Don't panic, I would say. Yeah, as a new teacher, you know, I mean, even to me, if I–if I walk into a brand-new class, right? Even if I—I’m well prepared in terms of, you know, curriculum, lesson

00:34:36.230 - 00:34:52.090

plans, materials, you know, walk into that classroom, visit a new kind of combination of students, you know, it can be a little scary, you know, even for, you know, experienced teachers. [laughs] But don't panic, right?

00:34:52.250 - 00:35:12.790

You'll find a way. And also, always keep in mind that your, you know, your students are there for you, and also, your colleagues are around to help you. That's also one thing I really appreciate over my teaching career: that I got lots of mentorship, a lot of,

00:35:12.790 - 00:35:27.430

you know, just great guidance from my, you know, colleagues, my more experienced colleagues, or just in general, colleagues, and also a lot of understanding and patience from my students. Don't panic, you'll–you’ll be fine.

00:35:28.130 - 00:35:39.900

Yeah, it's just like you said, a piece of muscle. The more you use it, the stronger you get. Yeah, don't panic. Yeah, I think, like, especially for younger students, it's kind of hard to see teachers

00:35:39.920 - 00:35:46.700

as, like, humans as well. [laughs] But I think the older that you get, you kind of realize that they're also just a person. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yep.

00:35:48.800 - 00:36:04.260

So could you tell us, like, the most fulfilling memory or part of teaching that you've had so far? Hmm. I would say that's not something happening in my classroom, but

00:36:04.620 - 00:36:21.600

is the trip I led in China. I think that's year of 2019, before the pandemic. We ran—we run the China trip programs twice. And the second time is definitely the–the—because the first time, you’re kind

00:36:22.210 - 00:36:37.390

of–kind of trying to get to know what exactly you're trying to do. The second time, you got more experience, and the second time, the–the China trip was definitely the highlight of fulfilling—if—to me, it’s very fulfilling, because I feel like the students will learn a lot.

00:36:37.820 - 00:36:52.600

And the—just the goals you set for the course, for the trip, were all met, and everybody’s happy. And both the teachers and the students learned a lot.

00:36:53.890 - 00:37:14.550

And, you know, they got a lot of chances exploring the culture, making connections with host families, the host schools, we just viewed a lot of, you know, great places, visited a lot of great, great places. And for some students, when they came back, you can see the change.

00:37:14.850 - 00:37:34.060

And as a teacher, you know, when you see that the–the—a lesson, or an experience, or even just a talk you provided, you had with a student, would make changes—I mean, good changes for sure, right, on them, that's always the most fulfilling moments, right?

00:37:34.510 - 00:37:51.470

And the China trip is one of them. I still give people example that one of the students on that trip said, “If this is China, I'm wondering where—what the rest of the world will be like.” I'm glad that I helped them to kind of have opened

00:37:52.110 - 00:38:08.200

the gate—not gate, window. Not a big window, maybe just a small window, to let them see, “Hey, there are bigger, much, much bigger world outside, in this world, in this universe, waiting for you to explore, to

00:38:08.200 - 00:38:23.250

see, and to just wander around.” Yeah, that sounds like a really cool, like, trip or program. [SZ: Yeah.] Do you have plans to, like, continue? I guess, like, right now in the pandemic, it's kind of hard.

00:38:23.250 - 00:38:39.150

[SZ: Yeah.] But, like, maybe in a few years or so? Yes, yes. If it were not the pandemic, we—our China trip programs would–would–would go on. But yeah, and we do want to go–go visit back, go back

00:38:39.190 - 00:38:53.780

to visit the host families, the schools, and also the places in China, but you know, the pandemic. And also, the other thing is the US-China relations, you know, and it's—it becomes a kind of very hard to say situation.

00:38:55.350 - 00:39:11.730

But yeah, we’ll—you know, trips is, you know, the trip programs are–are always a big part at my school, at Post Oak. Even probably if it's not China, we may want to visit some other, you know, some other cultures or countries in Asia.

00:39:11.890 - 00:39:25.650

We’re planning on it. But, yeah, we don't know yet, yeah. Fingers crossed that it works out, because yeah, I think it's a very eye-opening experience. [SZ: Absolutely, yeah.] Yeah, so on the flip

00:39:25.650 - 00:39:42.010

side, what would you say is, like, the biggest challenge that you've encountered–encountered as a teacher? I would still say the—my cultural background, and the culture I'm sitting in, I'm in, right?

00:39:42.620 - 00:40:01.990

Because, you know, especially at the beginning of my teaching career, especially when I was teaching at the charter school—because, you know, I was brought up in, you know, I–I was educated in the, let's say, the Chinese way, the Asian way, the majority of my life, right?

00:40:02.780 - 00:40:19.290

And when you teach, especially, like I said, in my early—earlier teaching career, it–it—the patterns would–would be seen from me in a way that—how I teach my students.

00:40:19.610 - 00:40:37.120

But some of the ways are not, let's say, the American way, the—or the Western way. One of—I believe it’s appropriate to put this way, is that the way I was brought up, the way I was educated, was teacher-centered, right?

00:40:37.680 - 00:40:47.750

And that could mean a lot of things. It does not just mean that the teacher is just giving lectures, you know, do much of the talking. That's not just about it.

00:40:47.750 - 00:41:04.260

And it's also about the communication you have with the students, right? I did not—I–I–I was—I failed (?) at that on early years of my teaching. I—especially at the public school, because it's—first of all, it is tougher to

00:41:04.260 - 00:41:23.780

teach at a public school in a poor area than, you know, from teaching an independent school, let's put it that way, in a more affluent area, right? And the second thing is, mainly about me, when I was reflecting is, I—the challenge I have in terms of

00:41:24.090 - 00:41:43.560

communication, building connections with the students, it was the biggest challenge ever. Yeah, especially working at the public school, the charter school. But right now, I see that as the major thing, as a teacher, as a

00:41:43.660 - 00:42:02.030

mentor, or as an advisor, you know, and that's even more important to me than delivering your curriculums. That's—I also do—sometimes do training to educators in China. I told them, “Hey, if you want to work with—if you want to work with probably

00:42:02.280 - 00:42:17.020

new generation kids, try to–try to think outside the box of the Chinese way, or Asian way, of teaching. Definitely build relationships. Build connection with them first.

00:42:17.020 - 00:42:33.790

Because without that, you wouldn't find it easy to teach them anything you want to teach.” Yeah, there was a—it was—I would say sometimes still it's a challenge, because every student is different, right? It's—it could be still a challenge, but it was the

00:42:34.150 - 00:42:51.710

biggest, the greatest challenge at my early years of–of–of being an educator right here. Yeah, I think, like, a lot of the times, younger teachers or, like, newer teachers are more versed in emotional intelligence, and maybe

00:42:51.710 - 00:43:02.650

that's why they can connect a bit more with their students. [SZ: Yes.] But, yeah, there's also, like—I go to Rice, and there's a lot of, like, older professors who are also, like, very emotionally intelligent. [SZ: Right, absolutely.] So it’s definitely not limited by age.

00:43:03.230 - 00:43:16.300

Yeah, absolutely. So I also saw that you're involved with promoting DEIJ at Post Oak, so Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Justice. [SZ: Yes.] So could you tell us a bit about your work?

00:43:17.800 - 00:43:32.380

About my–my work? Sorry, yeah, could you tell us a bit about your work there? Oh, yes. So I—actually, I stepped out from the Post Oak DEIJ Committee, just because I got so

00:43:32.380 - 00:43:50.540

busy. But I'm still part of, you know, the conversation, I'm still dedicated to do that. Outside of Post Oak, I'm also a initial—a founding member of a kind of grassroots organization called Courageous Dialogues with Chinese Educators.

00:43:51.380 - 00:44:07.900

The CDCE is also a organization focusing on having conversations about DEIJ with Chinese teachers—well, not—Chinese teachers and teachers who are–who are teaching Chinese language or Chinese culture.

00:44:09.250 - 00:44:31.980

So, first of all, it—my interest, or my dedication, or my commitment to this work came out from the pandemic, the–the–the anti-Asian hate crimes that's—that started from

00:44:33.360 - 00:44:48.550

there. You know, and then it–it has been driven me to do a lot of research, do a lot of reading, having more conversations with others, and reflecting more about it.

00:44:49.490 - 00:45:07.010

Then I kind of realized that, you know, being an educator, you always have the privilege to do some, let’s say, ideal work, right? You want to create a better world, right? Then I–I started to, you know,

00:45:07.010 - 00:45:24.390

advocate more, you know, integrate more, you know, DEIJ-related topic into my curriculum, in my teaching. And I started to talk with other educators, especially the educators were—who has, you know, Chinese background or Asian, you know, cultural

00:45:24.390 - 00:45:40.250

background or teaching, mentoring—I mean, Chinese language and culture. Then we started to have the conversation, you know, those all fostered me with a, I don't know, maybe better or more comprehensive understanding of DEIJ.

00:45:40.870 - 00:45:59.630

That's how I got really interested and passionate and committed to this work. And in terms–in terms of specific work, like I said, at Post Oak, I kind of had been bringing those topics into my curriculum, language curriculums, and also global politics curriculums, and also, you know,

00:45:59.670 - 00:46:18.810

other, you know, Asia and Asian Studies programs, trips. Outside of Post Oak, I’m working with other educators trying to—promoting the conversations, the dialogues, focusing on DEIJ. I–I—just to me, I just feel like it's very important to have this conversation,

00:46:20.820 - 00:46:41.470

especially right now. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah. And although, like, these are kind of long-standing issues, we're seeing, like, a surge of tragedies in the US, such as mass shootings and racial hate crimes. So, has your work with DEIJ and the CDCE

00:46:41.830 - 00:46:58.680

lended you unique perspectives on how to talk to your students about these issues, and then also, like, how we as a society can kind of grow and improve? Yeah, absolutely. I just want to talk about one thing about that. The more I work in this area, the more I read,

00:47:01.300 - 00:47:20.640

or I see, I hear about the way people are talking about it, the more I realized that, one, it has to be grassroot work. It's hard to do it from the top to the bottom. You cannot expect the government, the President,

00:47:21.900 - 00:47:39.290

the Senate, to—well, of course they can do something, right? But it's hard to do it from the top to the bottom, like I said, but to me, it's more like to build a bed, the grassroots. As an educator, I have the privilege to influence my students, right?

00:47:39.290 - 00:47:58.590

To let them know the ideas of DEIJ, to build a better world. I'm expecting—I always said to—say to them, “Hey guys, we're getting old, and we're gonna be counting on you to build a better world.” Right? And the other way is—the other thing about it is, to me, to

00:47:58.590 - 00:48:14.100

sys-systematically change something, it's hard. I'm not saying is undoable, it’s just so hard. You will face a lot of challenges, a lot of push backs. I'm not saying it does not worth to do it.

00:48:14.160 - 00:48:29.640

Of course it–it does, right? But to me, as just a nobody, if you still want to do something to help to promote DEIJ, start from the grassroot work. Talk with Emily, right?

00:48:29.750 - 00:48:43.940

Talk with your colleagues—talk with your colleagues, your–your fellow educators, right? And help them to think more about it. You know, it's just one drop of water; it's like—it's—it looks like really small, right?

00:48:43.940 - 00:48:56.610

It probably would not make a big effect. But what about everybody does it, right? And I do it to Emily, Emily you talk with someone else, and your friends go talk to someone else, it will make something, even though it's slow, right?

00:48:56.930 - 00:49:16.550

That's why the path I chose to do it right now is more about, you know, focusing on grassroot work, even with my students. I build many DEIJ conversations, even small conversations, even just a couple sentences in my curriculum, it would mean something to

00:49:16.580 - 00:49:30.870

them, I hope, right? Yeah, that's probably the major kind of take away, you know, from the experience working on DEIJ and working with the CDCE organization.

00:49:33.530 - 00:49:49.690

Yeah, I agree. I think sparking conversation is very important. Yeah, yeah. And I just—you reminded me of another thing. Another takeaway is civil discourse, right? If you're looking at the media, if you're looking at the news, and sometimes you

00:49:49.690 - 00:50:05.260

witness the ways people talk about, you know, for example, racial issues, right? It's—I don't think that should be the way people have conversation. Because without respect, without mutual respect,

00:50:06.470 - 00:50:28.180

you cannot make any deal, you cannot make any progress. So civil discourse, that should be–that should be always the foundation whenever we're talking about a—an issue like DEIJ. Yeah, I totally agree. [SZ: Yeah.] And now that we're kind of like

00:50:28.180 - 00:50:44.500

slowly returning back to normal life in the pandemic, how have you and your students and your colleagues been dealing with COVID and, like, Zoom the past two years? It’s–it's tough, especially at the very beginning.

00:50:45.430 - 00:51:05.010

Our school went on–went on online teaching, Zoom teaching, whatever, after, like, right after the spring break of year 2020. So, we did not return back to school, we stayed online until the next year,

00:51:05.730 - 00:51:22.070

year of 2021. We opened it—we made it optional, and then asked teachers—we did hybrid learning; students can either stay in the classroom or they can Zoom in online, right? It has been really challenging, because nobody did that, and, you

00:51:22.070 - 00:51:37.400

know, there's a lot of technology problems, you have to adjust your pedagogy, you have to adjust your curriculum, everything is new—was new, right? And I mean, it still is new, right? Because we're not 100% out of the pandemic.

00:51:38.770 - 00:51:59.140

But the—I’m–I'm really glad that I got a good team, my–my school, you know, backing up their—you know, providing me and the students what they want. And right now, because we've been back for, like, a year or something, so we can see that things are kind of getting back to normal.

00:51:59.640 - 00:52:19.140

But we still have some, you know, protocols we are—I mean, before the summer, right, we still had the—some protocols we had with—yeah, right now, I—to be honest, I personally, I don't feel much difference from the pre-pandemic era.

00:52:20.370 - 00:52:40.290

The only big missing—big thing that I feel like the school is missing during the two years is the sense of community. You don’t expect to build a community just through Zoom, right? It has to be in-person.

00:52:41.150 - 00:52:59.390

It has to be, you know, people sitting together, to talk, to have conversation, to bond with each other. It has to be that way. That's something that I would feel, and many—I would believe that many of my colleagues, or just educators, and students as well, in general,

00:52:59.390 - 00:53:17.660

would feel—would have the kind of “something's missing” part. I think that's–that's a part of missing the connection, the community sense. Yeah, but we're—I mean, everybody's trying to, you know, kind of bring it back right now, right, that’s called a “post-pandemic” age,

00:53:18.470 - 00:53:35.010

yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. It's, like, almost impossible to build a community over Zoom. [SZ: Yep.] Or, like, at least, like, when I was taking Zoom classes, like, if the “camera on” wasn't required, I would just kind of take it in bed, so yeah.

00:53:35.010 - 00:53:51.370

[laughs] Yeah, yep. How long have you guys been—how long did you guys stay online at Rice? At Rice, so my freshman year was, like, almost entirely online except for, like, labs, and, like, maybe a few, like, very, very small classes.

00:53:52.080 - 00:54:09.540

And then my sophomore year, which is, like, what I just passed, it was more hybrid, I would say, like, some of my classes were fully online, especially if they were, like, bigger lectures, and then—but the smaller classes were like—had the option of being in person or online–online.

00:54:10.190 - 00:54:25.530

Okay. Did you have to stay in Houston? Or could you, like, Zoom in from Boston, from your home? So, in freshman year, there was, like, an option—I forget if it was both semesters, but at least first semester, it was an option to be at home.

00:54:25.530 - 00:54:33.970

So, like, that's why the campus was so, like, empty, because [SZ: Right.] not everybody was even on campus. Right, I see. Yeah, it's definitely tough times.

00:54:34.850 - 00:54:45.630

Yeah, yeah. I chose to be on campus for my freshman year, but it was kind of like a ghost town. [SZ laughs] I mean, everybody was still, like, wearing a mask [SZ: Yeah, I can imagine.] outside and stuff.

00:54:47.260 - 00:55:01.560

Yeah, so how is hybrid learning like in your classroom? Did people choose to show up more or, like, were they mostly on Zoom? I would say half, half. And also, of course, more people, you know, came back to the classroom

00:55:01.600 - 00:55:19.890

eventually, right? But at the beginning, I think it's kind of half and half. Yeah, we just have the devices called “Owl.” It's, like, kind of multi-direction camera, you put it in the middle of the classroom, it collects the sound, the images, yeah, it's—yeah.

00:55:21.820 - 00:55:42.290

I would say half and half for almost all the classes, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, my last question before we move on to, like, more of the fun, like, identity questions, I guess, what is something that you hope all of your students can walk away from—can walk away with from their time at Post Oak?

00:55:42.690 - 00:56:01.880

Hmm…Ah, that's a very good question. There's just so many things I want them to walk away from, but to name one thing, I probably just want them walk away from—walk away with,

00:56:02.220 - 00:56:18.230

you know, from Post Oak, that they can see some positive change that in their life. It could be just a thought, right? And yeah, maybe just change—it really depends on the

00:56:18.230 - 00:56:38.340

individuals. It could be, like, a perspective about the culture, or about an issue, and then—at the moment they’re walking out from Post Oak, they would say, “Oh, I was—I thought it

00:56:38.340 - 00:56:51.930

was that way. But after four years at Post Oak, I've been deepening my understanding on this issue. Now, this is the way I understand it. And this is the way I can help to

00:56:54.440 - 00:57:14.130

solve it or make it better.” Yeah, maybe that's–that's the thing I want them to walk away with from Post Oak. Yeah, and kind of, like, in a similar way, you describe yourself as a lifelong learner. So, what is, like, your favorite thing or, like, fun fact that you've learned

00:57:14.170 - 00:57:33.940

recently? I just finished a, you know, a UK trip with my wife. I came back 10 days ago, and it's a 14-day trip. When I was in UK, absolutely there's a lot of–a lot of, you know, differences.

00:57:34.510 - 00:57:49.950

But I'm–I’m personally very interested in languages. And I-I-I knew—I learned many, you know, differences between the Britain English and American English. I remember, my–my friend’s kids, they told me that the sneakers, the

00:57:49.950 - 00:58:05.820

shoes, the sports shoes in UK is called “trainers.” I was like, wow, that's pretty cool, right? And some other, you know, pronunciation-wise thing, you know, that’s quite interesting. And there are other, you know, just cultural things about UK.

00:58:06.120 - 00:58:22.640

Like, they're—they don't call their schools, like, “public school,” “private school”, or “public school” versus an “independent school.” They call—when they say it's a public school in UK, it's not—it's–it's–it's not, you know, publicly funded school.

00:58:23.060 - 00:58:39.360

And it's actually—it could be a private school, but they just open their doors to any applicants. The public school we're talking about in the US–in the US they call the “state school,” quite interesting. And yeah, they're—it's–it's—and also the strikes,

00:58:40.200 - 00:58:55.590

right? And when we were there, there was a big strike. You know, the–the–the subway workers’ strike. And it just, you know, paralyzed the subway for a day. We did not go anywhere on the last day we were there, because of the strike.

00:58:56.530 - 00:59:13.720

And I–I don't think we—I don’t think I've seen any of that in Houston, at least. But when I feel like the power of the people, the power of the union can do that kind of a-a-an impact, that's kind of, like, good learning.

00:59:13.890 - 00:59:30.130

Yeah. There's some other stuff I couldn't remember, you know, I couldn't, you know, just name some other details. Just, you know, just kind of random stuff, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I have a friend—she's also in this internship, actually.

00:59:30.180 - 00:59:39.490

But she had an entire semester abroad in–in England, in London. That's great. That's great. Yeah, I really enjoyed Britain.

00:59:39.610 - 00:59:51.980

It's–it's beautiful. It's—it has just a lot of history, yeah, a lot of cultural aspects of it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, for sure. And then, how do you, like, identify yourself?

00:59:52.290 - 01:00:12.760

And this can be in terms of, like, your ethnicity, your religion if you have one, core beliefs, or anything else? I would say…good question. When you–when you talk about identity, it could–it could–it

01:00:13.190 - 01:00:28.870

could come from many aspects, right? Ethnicity wise, of course, I'm a Chinese, right? And—but, you know, more on that, I think I’m a still developing Americanized Chinese, still developing

01:00:29.670 - 01:00:49.210

Americanized first-generation Chinese immigrant, yeah. And, yeah, I identify myself as he, he/him, and I am a Christian. What

01:00:49.210 - 01:01:07.330

else? I’m a husband, yeah, I see myself as a family man. Yeah, I am not a party guy. I like to read, I like to watch films, I like–I like to think.

01:01:08.150 - 01:01:25.170

Yeah, and—but I also think that—I don't know, yeah. Any–any specific aspect or perspective you wanted me to talk about my identity? No, I think that's good. Just, like, [SZ: Okay, okay.] anything that you feel would

01:01:25.170 - 01:01:40.560

describe yourself. [SZ: Okay, all right.] And then, what are your some of your current hobbies and interests outside of your career? Mm, I like–I like to watch games. I used to play a lot of basketball, but, you know, over the years, especially with

01:01:40.640 - 01:01:55.630

pandemic, this kind of, like, routine faded away. I’m trying to pick it up, but I do enjoy basketball and football, American football. Other than that, reading took me, you know, many of

01:01:55.630 - 01:02:13.190

my time, and also traveling. Oh yeah, traveling! That's definitely the biggest thing in my family, you know, to me and my wife. We travel—we can't say we're well traveled, but we would travel, like, maybe three to four times per year

01:02:13.780 - 01:02:25.560

if there were no pandemic. Yeah. We still have our list there. Yeah, it's—yeah, traveling, that's definitely the top one thing that I would love to do when I have kind of, like, summer break, yeah.

01:02:25.560 - 01:02:40.240

Do you have any upcoming plans to travel, or have you already traveled this summer? Yeah, I've already traveled to UK last–last month, yeah, for two weeks. Yeah, I'm actually departing to Baltimore tomorrow.

01:02:41.150 - 01:02:53.160

It's–it’s for a professional development about American immigration history. That's going to be my second—also maybe the last trip I will make during the summer.

01:02:55.190 - 01:03:09.600

Very cool. And are you planning to visit China anytime in the next few years or so? As long as—as soon as China opens the door. China, you know, kind of put down its–its unbelievable

01:03:11.670 - 01:03:23.990

COVID regulations. Yeah, it's just very hard to—I do, I desperately want to visit my family. But just because of, you know, the pandemic and the

01:03:23.990 - 01:03:35.370

regulations China has right now, I don't think I could make it, of course this year, or even next year. It's–it's very hard. Yeah, we'll see.

01:03:37.920 - 01:03:53.320

Yeah. Hopefully, like, maybe within the next decade or so? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as soon as the door opens, like, widely [laughs]. Yeah, my friends and I, we even talk about, now the hardest—for us, the Chinese

01:03:53.320 - 01:04:09.690

nationals, the hardest place we can travel now is China itself, our homeland. Yeah, I can easily travel to Europe or some other countries or, you know, places, but yeah, it's—yeah, it—I hope it's getting better, yeah.

01:04:11.200 - 01:04:24.640

Yeah, I hope so too. And my last question would be, like, if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to your younger self, what would you say? Ah,

01:04:30.340 - 01:04:45.080

here’s the thing: I-I'm the kind of person that I never thought I made any bad decisions. Not saying that all my decisions are wise or smart decisions. No, I did not mean that.

01:04:45.960 - 01:05:02.080

To me, I have kind of the philosophy that every-everything or every decision has both sides. It will lead you to one direction. At this point, because I'm happy with my life, I'm happy with my work, I'm

01:05:02.080 - 01:05:17.910

happy about who I am right now, I wouldn't think there's anything I would want to–I would want to change if I can time travel back to a certain time, yeah. So I…I

01:05:23.820 - 01:05:40.300

don't think I have any advice to give to younger me, to be honest. Just be yourself, you know, just, you know, enjoy your life, you know, seize the days, you know, yeah. Just–just that, yeah. Let–let God lead you to wherever, you know—it kind of sounds like

01:05:40.410 - 01:05:54.090

really religious, but yeah, just let God lead you to wherever he wants you to land, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good answer. [SZ laughs] Yeah, so that's all of the questions that I have prepared.

01:05:54.200 - 01:06:10.770

But do you have any-anything else that you want to add? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. Yeah, I think–I think it's–it's–it's also a good opportunity, you know, for me to kind of review my–my path, career wise.

01:06:12.230 - 01:06:21.470

Life wise, as well. Yeah, it's good. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you so much for this interview, and have a good trip to Baltimore, and yeah, have a great rest of your week.

01:06:21.940 - 01:06:26.360

Thank you. Enjoy your Saturday, Emily. Thank you so much, all right, bye bye. Okay, bye.