00:00:00.210 - 00:00:20.690

So I want to begin by asking you to state your name and title. We have to think because I have many titles. Uh my name is Sherry Madison off Mirvish. Um I have many titles because I guess the one that's all accompanying is activist. Where did

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you grow up? I grew up in san Antonio texas. Uh then went to the University of texas at Austin where I got a bachelor's in with in literature, then received a masters in american studies from the University of southern California. I taught college for around five

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years as a lecturer and then I went to law school at the University of Houston and graduated in 1981. So as a kid, do you remember having an interest in activism? Absolutely. I am a product of so many movements and I guess that the one that

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I was most aware as a young child was the civil rights movement and certainly was shaped by the anti war movement, especially during my college years and after that the women's movement. Although uh the women's movement was something that I identified with long before I knew

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the vocabulary for it. I chafed at gender roles and thought especially as someone young and having that conversation with myself that that was unique to me and it was mind expanding and changed my life to recognize that I was actually part of a movement and that

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I was dealing with a systemic problem and that has been one of the things that has meant most to me in terms of my activism. Um do you remember like the first time you heard the phrase jewish american princess? I do, I I remember it, I

00:02:08.970 - 00:02:30.470

don't think the first time I heard it it had the same, I had the same reaction I did frankly until I became a mother and actually saw the handbook for the first time in print. That was a very different experience than hearing the term and passing.

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And I think when I had heard the term, it hadn't gotten the currency that it did in terms of what identified to really begin my quest to obliterate it. Well, what was the first time you heard it? I think probably with reference to joan rivers, she

00:02:52.640 - 00:03:18.480

was a female jewish comedian and she was uh as now the sort of inspiration for the marvelous mrs Maisel. She she was one of very few women because of course at the time and still something women comedians fight, they're not perceived as funny. And she had

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this persona as someone who was very inquisitive, who saw particularly men and and it was in parentheses, parenthetically jewish men as a means of acquiring things as opposed to someone who could achieve those things on her own and the kind of values that were ascribed to

00:03:44.570 - 00:04:05.430

what came to be known as the jewish american princess were very much personified by her. So like around what year was this? When you first started hearing this phrase, I would say in the late 50s, I mean it really the term came more into the american

00:04:05.430 - 00:04:30.910

parlance with the novel marjorie Morningstar, which I was too young for that, but that post war novel that talked about particularly Children of immigrants, which the character marjorie Morningstar and most of our contemporaries were and their desire to become middle class to be a part of

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the american dream and to give things to their Children and most particularly their daughters, the kinds of lives that would not resemble what they had escaped. So in some ways at the beginning, it had an aspirational quality to it. It didn't have the negative connotations and

00:04:52.450 - 00:05:17.790

it certainly wasn't something that within the jewish community would be used to vilify someone. On the other hand, if this stereotype had been about jewish men and had the same connotations, I don't think we would have had to embark upon a national effort to eradicate it

00:05:17.800 - 00:05:37.590

the fact that it was a woman. I mean, sexism and anti Semitism are both prongs of this stereotype and they definitely intersect. Do you remember, like, what you thought or felt about the term when you first heard it? I think when I first heard it, I

00:05:37.590 - 00:06:02.510

definitely bristled because I of course was always sensitive why would that be used to talk about a woman? But I don't think I first recognized how destructive it was that that would take some education? Yeah, you said that you kind of changed how you thought about

00:06:02.510 - 00:06:23.130

it when you became a mother. Like can you tell me about like what changed and how your feelings changed. I am the mother of two daughters and I was very determined that their upbringing would be very different from mine in terms of cultural and social expectations

00:06:23.140 - 00:06:43.160

because I before I became a mother, my identity as a feminist was very well formed and I I wanted to impart that to my daughters. Also. My identity as a jew particularly in terms of social justice was something that was very much a part of my

00:06:43.160 - 00:07:09.700

identity. So with with these responsibilities in mind the fact that my own community would perpetuate a stereotype which was so limiting to women and so unfair and that my daughters would have to wrestle with. This was something I could not abide. So my motivations for them,

00:07:09.700 - 00:07:32.340

my aspirations for them, my hopes for them came into full conflict with what I saw first as the acceptance of the stereotype and also which was of course the reason I became so active the pervasiveness of the stereotype. So like around this time like how how

00:07:32.340 - 00:07:49.380

prevalent, like how often would you come across this stereotype? Um Well it started at the jewish community center book fair. I always loved the book fair. I always loved hearing about you know going and hearing authors talk about the writing and part of that was browsing

00:07:49.380 - 00:08:13.170

the library, the bookstore and I had never seen the official jap handbook until the moment I saw it on the shelf. And I was shocked. And as I picked up the book which now the archives has 22 copies of. Uh I couldn't believe my eyes what

00:08:13.180 - 00:08:40.650

what it was and it was so obvious to me was the age old stereotypes that have been leveled against jews for centuries. Materialistic. Uh couldn't be trusted, acquisitive and basically positioning jewish women is a parasite on society. I was shocked by, I went up to the

00:08:40.660 - 00:08:59.960

people that were then in charge of the book fair. I asked how can this book be here. They of course dismiss me because no one else seemed to be troubled by it. From then on I became determined to see to what extent this despicable image of

00:08:59.960 - 00:09:20.910

jewish women was being marketed. And much to my dismay I found it in many realms cards again which the archive has now possession of that used the jewish woman and even the professional jewish woman who could not escape the term jab. And some of those cards

00:09:20.910 - 00:09:45.900

you'll see on her briefcase, it says jap on it. Uh so even being a professional and educated woman didn't mean that you stood and still could not be labeled this as my work broadened. I found that to my great uh dismay, jewish american princess paraphernalia as

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in bibs as in jewelry was being sold at temple and synagogue gift shops then. Uh so my work dealt mainly with the mass marketing of the stereotype. I then became aware through my work with dr Gary Spencer, a sociology professor at Syracuse who was dealing with

00:10:08.930 - 00:10:27.810

this issue on campus in terms of the shunning of jewish women that had occurred in newspaper ads, in sporting events etcetera etcetera. That the kind of thing that could be started with a woman wearing a banana clip or as it was known at the time was

00:10:27.810 - 00:10:45.460

enough to enable you as a jap and subject you to derision and public ridicule. So r I was on one track, he was on another track and we came together when we both learned about what one another was doing. What happened with me is once I

00:10:45.460 - 00:11:04.100

became aware of the pervasiveness, I thought I'm a person that likes solutions and I thought what can I do to make people aware of this? Well at the time, uh the american jewish committee, the Houston chapter had a women's issues committee and I brought it up

00:11:04.110 - 00:11:23.040

before the women's issues committee. And in the in terms of um thinking about what would be a good way to raise awareness. And since the congregation gift shops were purveyors of this horrible stuff, we decided the best thing would be to go before the Houston rabbinical

00:11:23.040 - 00:11:41.430

Association, make them aware of this and get a resolution from them about the nature of the stereotype and what should be done to address it that we could then use as a template for other communities. So um Ellen Cohen, who is now the mayor pro TEM,

00:11:41.440 - 00:11:58.900

but who was then the executive director of the american jewish committee. The two of us went to a meeting of the Houston Rabbinical Association at the time, all men. And at first they didn't want to take us seriously. We we would not we would not be

00:11:58.900 - 00:12:12.720

deterred, but first they did not want to take us seriously because the thing that would always be lodged against any woman who would bring this up, which is unfortunately something that is still uh done to dismiss legitimate concerns was that we just didn't have a sense

00:12:12.720 - 00:12:33.870

of humor. And it was well known that feminists didn't have a sense of humor. And one of the rabbis even tried to tell me a jap joke before it even began. Remember what what I don't even remember. They were also disgusting. I mean something along, what

00:12:33.870 - 00:12:57.640

is it a jab make for dinner reservations, you know, something. But um so that we had really and I am a lawyer. So my argument, I had worked on it and to advocate and to build a case and after it was all over they signed a

00:12:57.640 - 00:13:20.110

resolution giving us exactly what we had asked for which was that they would themselves address this negative stereotyping of jewish women that they would make it a part of their curriculum and their religious and day schools, so that young people were exposed to this, this negative

00:13:20.120 - 00:13:41.650

stereotyping of jewish women and that they would remove all of that junk. I'm using a nice word since I'm being recorded from their gift shops and they would explain why. So that resolution. So when when that happened, as I said, I wasn't aware of what was

00:13:41.650 - 00:14:02.080

going on college campuses when the age uh let it be known. The american jewish committee, that this had been the result of our efforts. It garnered national attention because it was the first time someone had gone on record to really not only refute the stereotype, but

00:14:02.080 - 00:14:21.380

also with specific steps about what to do to eradicate it. And the american jewish committee called a press conference in new york. They asked me to come speak. I certainly went, I have to say I was not prepared for it in the fact because what happened

00:14:21.390 - 00:14:39.830

is up to that point. This became the most successful press conference the american jewish committee had ever had. And when you think about all of the thorny issues, the american jewish committee deals with the fact that the National Press was all over this room and the

00:14:39.830 - 00:14:58.730

firestorm that resulted afterwards, when the new york Times put it on the front page, I was not the only speaker, Susan Weidman Schneider, who was the editor of lilith, a feminist jewish publication and francine clack's byrne who is a commentator and writer, we're veterans of this

00:14:58.730 - 00:15:15.370

sort of thing. I was in my I guess I was 38 years old? I'd never spoken at a press conference uh especially one where the national press was in attendance. But nonetheless and I didn't have a press packet. I'll put that on the A. J. C.

00:15:15.370 - 00:15:34.580

But I don't know that they ever anticipated the kind of attention this would garner. And that began a national movement because what why I was important to the conversation is that I actually had a strategy for addressing it rather than just talking about how despicable it

00:15:34.580 - 00:15:52.560

was. Okay. I have a lot of questions based on based on that response. Um Okay so first okay you find this handbook and that's when you're living in Houston. And what would you say that that's the moment that like you were like, I'm fighting this or

00:15:52.570 - 00:16:08.290

well I knew I was fighting it at the JCC book fair, I knew that. But then when I saw this up until that point I wasn't even aware it existed and then started doing research which of course at the time no internet. This is like going

00:16:08.290 - 00:16:26.590

to a card shop, going to a gift shop. Then when I began to recognize the dimensions of this problem and that was when I said yes I'm going to do something about this. So you were going to like card shops, gift shops around Houston and synagogues

00:16:26.590 - 00:16:46.290

around Houston and that's okay, that's where you found these things. So at what point like, did you find out that it was beyond Houston when the agency called that national press conference? Because that because we had gotten this resolution and it came to their attention, they

00:16:46.300 - 00:17:02.430

recognize that and because of the work of these other people, that's when they knew, Oh yeah, and and I knew it was a national problem problem because these things were manufactured in Houston. Uh this was a greeting card bunny Begelman distributed throughout the country. I I

00:17:02.430 - 00:17:23.020

immediately knew that it was something that was being peddled nationally. But my first, my first instinct was to do something about it locally, saying once that we had gotten some kind of action that we could then use as a template in other communities. So when you

00:17:23.020 - 00:17:37.290

decided you wanted to do something locally, that's when you decided to go to the Houston Rabbinical Association? Well, first, right through the, through the american jewish committee, through the Women's Issues Committee, we can we devised a plan and that was the first step. Yes. So did

00:17:37.290 - 00:17:51.430

you bring this issue to the women's? Um Yes, I did. I brought to the Women's Issues Committee and like what was the response when you brought it up to them? Something needed to be done about it? I mean, it was the kind of thing, you know,

00:17:51.440 - 00:18:15.500

it's it's insidious things like this? You, you that bothers you you think, well, should I give this any kind of weight is it deserving of any serious consideration? And then someone affirms that by showing you the true dimensions of a problem or or how the effects

00:18:15.500 - 00:18:35.010

of it are much deeper than you would have first anticipated. So that's what happened. Yes. Go ahead. Well, how did you guys come up with a plan? Like, what was, Well, the the way we came up with a plan was okay, how do you make, we're

00:18:35.010 - 00:18:57.640

dealing with congregational gift shops that are selling jap jewelry and jap and training bibs and you know, onesies for Children, so we need to get rid of them. But who are the leaders of those institutions? And wouldn't it be much more effective coming from them? And

00:18:57.640 - 00:19:12.040

also show a deeper understanding of the issue. So yeah, and then there was the vehicle, there was the the Houston Rabbinical Association they met, we'd all have them all in one room, so that's how we chose it. Okay, So you said that when you first went

00:19:12.040 - 00:19:31.270

to the Houston Rabbinical Association, they didn't take you seriously? Um like, was this like, over the course of one meeting or several meetings, that it was one meeting, I would I would not be uh I knew that I would be taken seriously once I presented my

00:19:31.270 - 00:19:56.400

argument about it. So what was like the format? Like, I mean, I'm like imagining, like rabbis, like sitting in a line and the format was well I learned something very quickly about the stereotype If I began with it uh, as sexist, I didn't get as far

00:19:56.410 - 00:20:14.070

as when I first addressed it as anti Semitic when I began with that argument and it was easy. And I, and and the way I did it when I was speaking on college campuses and with younger audiences was that I would ask people to tell me

00:20:14.080 - 00:20:36.190

the identifying characteristics of a jab and oh my gosh, they would just follow all of themselves. Giving me acquisitive has an accent, clannish can't be trusted. And then I would say, all right, let's look at each of these characteristics and how they are basically anti Semitism

00:20:36.190 - 00:20:55.500

in new packaging using the age old, uh, horrible things that have been said about juice through the centuries. They're just packaged in the form of a woman of an american woman. So that was revelatory. Because wait a minute. And then of course what I've said earlier

00:20:55.510 - 00:21:23.930

and what I believe, 100% if a man, if a Jewish man had been uh, characterized in this way, put on greeting cards had books devoted to dissecting him in in the most unseemly of ways, jewelry and all these other products, there would not have been the

00:21:23.930 - 00:21:41.990

need for a national campaign that would have been shut down in seconds, but because it was a woman, um, it was not taken as seriously. So I did learn that. So by the time, because I had before I went to the Houston Rabbinical Association, I had

00:21:42.000 - 00:22:02.810

uh talked about this with several influential people to see to gauge their reaction. And I learned very quickly that I, especially with jewish audiences had to first address it as anti Semitic and soften them for the sexist part. Although I never believed and still don't. That

00:22:02.810 - 00:22:18.300

one is more important than the other because of course now we have the term intersectionality and it absolutely applies to the situation. So like how long did this meeting take from when you walked in and they're completely dismissive to when they're on board with you and

00:22:18.310 - 00:22:38.160

implementing all these changes. It was an hour. That's it. It was an hour. It was I think to Ellen's, in my credit, we had already thought of every counter argument. So any time they brought something up, we were ready, they didn't say anything that surprised us.

00:22:38.170 - 00:23:00.000

We we easily anticipated their response. And the thing that we also pointed out to rabbis, which would be of interest to them was the intermarriage rate, which is only grown and a product of that. We thought and was verified from comments that came about was that

00:23:00.000 - 00:23:18.260

this image and we're talking about it in a very heterosexual normative way. So let me state that this image of jewish women was a turn off to jewish men and a comment about, let's say you have a nice car that would come out of a woman

00:23:18.260 - 00:23:36.710

as opposed to a jewish one would be interpreted very differently through this lens? So jewish men were predisposed and I'm talking about even women with professional aspirations were in many ways predisposed because of the stereotype to categorize women in this way and that we knew that

00:23:36.710 - 00:23:56.420

was very strategic to tell the rabbis that because that was something that made them sit up and take notice. I'm very, I have to give myself this compliment. I'm very good at figuring out what argument will be will be persuasive in the context that I'm I'm

00:23:56.420 - 00:24:18.040

in, that's something uh I've been trained to do as an advocate. Okay, so um after you went to the Houston Rabbinical Association was the next thing um the press conference, or was the next thing you met? Um the professor from Syracuse. The next thing was the

00:24:18.040 - 00:24:36.230

press conference. Uh that came very quickly after this. I mean, after I had got, after we got the resolution, then I was looking at where do we go next? And so the answer fell in my lap when I went up for this press conference as a

00:24:36.230 - 00:24:56.680

result of the press conference, the national coverage exploded. It was all over the country and People were calling me and asking me to come speak. I spoke over 100 times and I was interviewed by numerous publications and that I'm glad to say is in the archives

00:24:56.680 - 00:25:18.500

now. So it I became a very visible champion of this as a result of that press conference. So then, um okay, so let me add this. So then what happened, not only was it the coverage and be speaking to communities and making them aware of this,

00:25:18.510 - 00:25:38.110

then national organizations passed resolutions that mirrored the Houston Rabbinical Association, like the National Association of Temple Sisterhood, who are the ones that are in charge of these gift shops that became they then took that and took it nationally. So then it was something that all the

00:25:38.110 - 00:25:54.330

congregations throughout the United States were aware of and that they could go to their own gift shops and see if they were being purveyors of this junk. I noticed in the archives that I was looking through, like, you just wrote letters to, like, every company that

00:25:54.330 - 00:26:09.380

you could find that had like that we're using the stereotype in their products. So, I'm wondering like, how often did you feel like you were writing those letters? Um like when I look in the archives, it's like maybe a couple per year every couple of years.

00:26:09.380 - 00:26:24.920

But I'm wondering, kind of, like, how much of your time, like, was spent looking for these things, finding them and reaching out to the people. Well, most of my time was spent lecturing and a lot of times what someone would would tell me about it. So

00:26:24.920 - 00:26:36.640

then I would absolutely dress it. I mean, I would encourage them to address it too. So I'd have to say that, you know, this is, I know it's it's hard to imagine that you wouldn't be able to have this information at your fingertips as you do

00:26:36.640 - 00:26:56.250

today. But some usually somebody would tell me about it and then I would pursue it or it would come to my attention in other ways. one example is a Saturday night live sketch which I happened to turn on one night and it was called who was

00:26:56.250 - 00:27:16.580

a jew and it was modeled on family feud and you had these panels and they would flash a picture up and then they would both, they would vie to determine if this person was jewish based upon these horrible stereotypes. While it was not specifically about. I

00:27:16.580 - 00:27:30.410

mean although the term jap was not used, it came to the point where you didn't have to use that term right, you would just ascribe a certain set of characteristics and you wouldn't have to use it. So I and I know it's in there, I hope

00:27:30.410 - 00:27:49.850

I wrote a letter to Lorne Michaels and talked about how terrible this was and for the reasons I've just stated and at the time I was practicing law and I got a call from Al Franken who I didn't know. So I was not a regular viewer

00:27:49.860 - 00:28:01.880

of saturday night live at that point and he asked is this sherry Murphy is the person who wrote this letter to Lorne Michaels and I said yes and who is this? And he said, it's al Franken. And I went and what's your connection to this matter?

00:28:01.880 - 00:28:17.080

He goes, well, I wrote that and I went, then you and I are gonna have a very interesting conversation. And he kept telling me about these charming anecdotes about his Minnesota upbringing and how his parents had always taught him to be proud of his heritage. And

00:28:17.080 - 00:28:34.330

I said, well, that's all very touching. But I wouldn't talk about your skit and I want to talk about the images that you are using in this to reinforce negative stereotypes of jews and particularly jewish women. And he went ballistic. It's it's kind of interesting when

00:28:34.330 - 00:28:50.070

you look at it through the lens of today, the calmer I got, the more I rate he became and he did not want to listen to what I had to say about that sketch. But that's an example of an action I took as a result of

00:28:50.070 - 00:29:09.460

seeing something. But what I had always wanted and what I wanted for my work on many feminist issues is not to pass the torch, but to light more torches so that every person who was moved by this issue would then feel empowered to address it. I've

00:29:09.460 - 00:29:29.570

never seen this as a singular effort. Yes, it does take someone in this case me to step out, speak up, take a stand and certainly that is very intimidating to many people. And I understand because it wasn't easy uh to do it. but the my hope

00:29:29.570 - 00:29:47.860

is that you will become emboldened to address this yourself now that you're armed with the information you have. How long did it take before you felt like you were making a difference? Like, did you feel it like as soon as the rabbinical association passed the resolution

00:29:47.860 - 00:30:04.620

or was it after the press conference or sometime in between or afterwards? I think um it's a hard question to answer because I have to have to really think about where it was in each step of it because it sort of just became this treadmill that

00:30:04.620 - 00:30:23.030

I was on and seizing the moment. I knew when the history Rabbinical Association did that, that I and I knew nothing like that had been done that that was absolutely a first step and had the weight of this rabbinical authority. So, and and as I said,

00:30:23.030 - 00:30:42.350

as I keep emphasizing and men so you have that as an outside validator. The press conference absolutely registered for me as this is a moment of change first because of the two people that were speaking with me. But then because the press attention, I mean, the

00:30:42.360 - 00:31:01.610

room was packed, the agency couldn't believe it that there was and and I think, and and we didn't even know uh to what extent this was going on in college campuses, The most difficult presentations I had on this issue, bar none were at universities dealing with

00:31:01.610 - 00:31:23.950

jewish fraternities. Uh it it was that though, that there were many times where I felt like the issue was advancing in those circumstances, I would have battle fatigue just because the stereotype was so ingrained and there is a T shirt in the collection which shows you

00:31:23.970 - 00:31:54.100

the extent to which this was peddled. And what does the t shirt say? It has a caricature of a jewish woman with the no sign through it and the uh, then the uh fervor with which these jewish men wanted to, the further they exhibited in terms

00:31:54.100 - 00:32:16.310

of wanting to hold onto the stereotype, in terms of objectifying women with the stereotype, I have to compare it to the misogyny that came forth during Hillary Clinton's run. It shocked me because I felt like once I made my presentation, it was sort of undeniable that

00:32:17.210 - 00:32:37.300

the these horrible depictions of jewish women were coming from within the jewish community itself, and once you recognize that how could you come to any other conclusion, but that this had to stop. So, it there was there was real shock value to me in that. And

00:32:37.310 - 00:33:00.960

um, so I would say like every movement things happen in fits and starts, sometimes it's incremental, sometimes it can be cataclysmic. So the press comments was the first sense that this was absolutely something that was of national importance and when I would speak to groups of

00:33:00.960 - 00:33:21.330

women which I did many times throughout this this campaign, I I always felt that I had made a difference because I could see I could look around the room and seeing the recognition come now granted they had opened themselves coming to hear me. So they were

00:33:21.340 - 00:33:37.270

obviously open to listening to what I had to say, but it didn't take long to register. So you said that first, you weren't even aware of what was going on on college campuses. So how did that come onto your radar? How I came onto my radar

00:33:37.280 - 00:33:55.660

is once the national press, like once this and the new york Times article was below the fold front page. I have to remember the day. You honest if you had just a prominent placement in the new york Times and as a result of that dr gary

00:33:55.660 - 00:34:16.170

spencer at Syracuse contacted me because he wanted me to know what the work he was doing. And he and I collaborated, we spoke several times together and he made me aware of what was going on in college campuses at that time. The newspapers would have ads

00:34:16.170 - 00:34:33.910

for college roommates and he showed me on several college campuses. It would say no Japs. And um that was I was not aware of that. I was not aware of the taunts that women were being subjected to as I talked about by virtually wearing a piece

00:34:33.910 - 00:34:51.630

of apparel that identified him that way. Uh he made me, he's a professor of sociology and he made me more aware and of course I think I would surmise this otherwise that it was silencing women that they were so afraid of being taunted in this way.

00:34:51.640 - 00:35:16.810

And given my experience with jewish fraternities, I saw the strength of it. It was a mob mentality and it was disgusting. So I grew to learn more about it. And that certainly added to my resolve that this had to stop early. So who like was bringing

00:35:16.810 - 00:35:37.050

you onto college campuses. And when did that start? Uh, it was a number of organizations as a result, I mean the A. J. C. The american jewish committee, the chapters of that organization asked me to speak. I became a on the speakers list for the jewish

00:35:37.050 - 00:35:53.340

federation, the uh universities and colleges that were dealing with this or when it came to their attention. I was sort of a go to person. Not that I was the only one speaking about it, but I have to say I was, I was willing to speak

00:35:53.340 - 00:36:10.860

about it because it was not an easy thing to do. I was also on several radio shows. I was invited to be on these radio shows and after doing, I don't know how many ideas of those I want to say. 8-10, I decided against it because

00:36:10.870 - 00:36:29.920

just as with the advent of cable news, it became uh, not a vehicle for educating, but just as something for people to had this rebuke and this back and forth as entertainment value and that is not what I was doing this. I was this was not

00:36:29.920 - 00:36:47.670

something that I was doing to garner attention for myself, no matter the format, or no matter the result. So I quickly decided that was not uh enhancing my mission. One of the publications that I was in when The Houston Post, when there were two newspapers in

00:36:47.670 - 00:37:05.970

Houston, I was the featured cover story of the magazine, and at that time that was a big deal to to be on the cover of the magazine. So, as a result of that as well, there, I got many requests because that was also distributed widely. So,

00:37:05.970 - 00:37:17.680

you mentioned that you would get like a lot of backlash from the fraternities that you would speak to. So, and you also mentioned that, like, you know, the women who would come to your talks, they had chosen to come. So I'm wondering, what did the men,

00:37:17.680 - 00:37:33.020

were they forced to come or like how did they? I I think like, I think it's very much the same thing I was talking about the radio program. Um, I think they took it as sort of a sporting event and this was an opportunity to just

00:37:33.030 - 00:37:55.380

be rowdy and dismissive and, you know, with this group. Think the thing was the jewish women mainly of whom were sorority members were there as well, so they had the real opportunity to see what was happening as a result of them self identifying this way or

00:37:55.380 - 00:38:19.290

at leo and not uh in any way. Refuting stereotype, not being active about it. And I want to say, I think that for many of them it was an awakening as well because in addition to losing your voice there, I think amongst women was a desire

00:38:19.290 - 00:38:43.430

to distance themselves from certain jewish women because who would want to be identifying this way um once you understood the, you know, the whole sense of it. So there was that tension as well, which was so unfair and um really a waste frankly of potential for

00:38:43.430 - 00:39:06.160

all of them. But oh yes, for many times when um example, I was at Tulane University, I didn't have to make my points. The men made it for me and when they would begin to describe jewish women in this loathsome way. And with, as I said,

00:39:06.160 - 00:39:25.310

with such enthusiasm, oh, it was, it was eye opening. And I have to also say here at Rice University, I spoke to the Hillel here, I'm now remembering this and a professor of history whose name I can't recall right now, but I'm sure we could look

00:39:25.310 - 00:39:46.050

it up in the archives was extremely dismissive of this issue because in his view, there were so many worse examples of anti Semitism to be addressed in the great scheme of things. This was incidental. It was very disheartening because I would expect someone who with that

00:39:46.050 - 00:40:06.560

knowledge to understand that to reach a point where you exterminate people and I'm certainly not comparing this to nazism, but we all now better understand that you dehumanize them at the very beginning and when, when that process begins, there is so much at risk. On the

00:40:06.570 - 00:40:25.680

other hand, when the article came out in the jewish, I mean in the Houston post Chandler Davidson, a professor of sociology here at Rice who just retired after decades of distinguished service, invited me to lunch because he wanted me to know uh having worked on issues

00:40:25.680 - 00:40:44.340

like this himself, how much he appreciated what I had done and that I shouldn't in any way be discouraged um by the Naysayers and he became a friend. We're still friends. We actually just worked on something together, a congressional campaign. And it meant so much to

00:40:44.340 - 00:41:05.960

me that someone have his stature reached out to me and I wanted to tell me how valuable my work was. So Rice, one on one ST high hand. And uh, I wasn't surprised by this one. History professors perspective because I felt like he was uh more

00:41:05.960 - 00:41:21.940

prone to dismiss things when women were the subject before our interview. You were telling me that this was a chapter in your life. So I'm wondering like what point was the end of the chapter, the end of the chapter? Well, I'd like to say it has

00:41:21.950 - 00:41:39.990

ended. But unfortunately this issue rears its ugly head time and time again. And so I don't, when I say a chapter, I guess I should say when I was fully devoted to it, I still have to address this at times. The most recent jewish community center

00:41:39.990 - 00:42:00.600

Book fair. I'm talking this past fall had an author who talked about becoming an activist in the south and self titled the book from Jap to civil rights activists. And I actually had to deal with it just this recently and I had many other things competing

00:42:00.600 - 00:42:19.330

for my attention like the take over the house. But I had to once again educate the program committee at the JCC. How could this, how could you have brought this book and had this author with this on the title. And I then had they wanted me

00:42:19.340 - 00:42:38.060

to come to the event and uh remediate the situation. I couldn't but I had to provide someone else with the backdrop and so that they could talk about it. Because before she spoke, I mean and I have to say even though we had this resolution to

00:42:38.060 - 00:42:53.610

remove this stuff, I would say five years ago I was walking through a congregation gift shop. And I always, that was the first thing I would do before I spoke somewhere, I would not warn them advance, I would ask them to take me to their gift

00:42:53.610 - 00:43:11.870

shops and I was never disappointed. It was always there. So I could say uh it's right here and about five years ago I saw it in um a synagogue gift shop. I happened to be there. I called the rabbi. It was removed immediately. But so what

00:43:11.870 - 00:43:33.710

I would say is and and because these things happen, people still call me um or want me to be the one that speaks up again. The just this year I went to a jewish federation, which is the like the united Way of jewish organizations. Uh speaker,

00:43:33.710 - 00:43:49.320

they had this women's Day, that's something I can talk about at length. I mean it's not something I really believe in, but a friend was hosting it. The speaker who uh is a screenwriter for a show I've never seen called um Odd Moms Out or something

00:43:49.320 - 00:44:05.530

like that. Um had a pre reception which I could not attend in which she talked about being a job. She's from new york. You know, they have that little insular view and people came rushing out and saw me and went, oh Cherry, you should have been

00:44:05.530 - 00:44:24.780

there. And I said, well did I hope one of you said something which they had. So let me just say that this is a journey that is still continuing. What changed for me is I uh this what this highlighted for me was that I wasn't content

00:44:24.780 - 00:44:43.960

practicing law that I wanted a bigger, bigger form, a bigger venue for changing the world and I soon thereafter went to work for Emily's list um at the very beginning of Emily's list, which is early money is like yeast a pack devoted to electing pro choice

00:44:43.960 - 00:45:02.520

democratic women And the skills that I had gotten from this. I was able to apply to 20 years of activism electing democratic women and that has been the highlight of my life and I retired from Emily's list in 2009, but I have not stopped doing this.

00:45:03.070 - 00:45:26.820

And in fact just recently I'm very proud to say recruited a candidate and changed a red district in texas blue defeating john culberson and electing lizzie fletcher as a congresswoman. So it was a kind of thing that certainly was formative for me because of the lessons

00:45:26.820 - 00:45:51.300

I learned, but I wanted a bigger stage. Um I was wondering too how if at all do you think that the term Jap has changed over time and meaning or even personal meaning? I don't know that it's changed that much. I think it still is pretty,

00:45:51.310 - 00:46:11.230

I mean it's one of those stereotypes that um is sort of ossified, I guess this word, I mean it's you use the term people know exactly what you're talking about, they know that they appear to think about uh construe exactly who you're talking about and now

00:46:11.230 - 00:46:34.020

this marvelous Mrs Maisel, this, this this show um is bringing it up again in a very different way, but nonetheless playing upon this backdrop. So that gives me pause what I would say today and and maybe this is um I hope I hope not being too

00:46:34.020 - 00:46:55.010

optimistic. I think when someone uses it today, I would hope that someone they're speaking to is aware of how discussing it is. I'd like to think that no one does it in that vacuum they did when when we were addressing it of of being harmless, of

00:46:55.010 - 00:47:20.090

being of dismissing someone is is just not having a sense of humor as something that doesn't restrict young girls particularly jewish young girls version of themselves or changes their behavior to distance themselves from it as they grow older. I I hope that it doesn't have the

00:47:20.100 - 00:47:36.790

currency it used to have. And in large part, I think that's because you don't see it plastered in gift shops in bookstores, etcetera. One of the reasons that I asked you about, like, how the meeting has changed is because, like, I myself am familiar with the

00:47:36.790 - 00:47:50.930

term. Um, but there were some parts that you would point out in your letters that I like, didn't know even more associated with the term. Like, for example, you would always talk about in a lot of your letters, like how it uh, indicates like an aversion

00:47:50.930 - 00:48:07.480

to sex, and that was something I'd never heard associated with the term. I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, that was definitely a part of the stereotype is that, first of all it, as we all know, it's always been difficult for women to own their sexuality.

00:48:07.490 - 00:48:25.090

So, of course, you're going to separate that from from her because that would be uh a woman in charge of her own sexuality would actually be in charge of her image. So that was necessary and take the other part of it, that sex was merely viewed

00:48:25.090 - 00:48:45.130

as a transactional transaction to getting something else. For example, one of the prevalent jokes at the time was how do you know, a jewish woman is having an orgasm, she drops her nail file or something of that order. Uh but that was also rooted in the

00:48:45.130 - 00:49:12.960

ancient uh often peddled stereotypes of jewish people in that they were nerdy, that they weren't physically able. So even that kind of version of jewish people where being physical and as I said, empowered, had its roots there too. But yes, that was definitely a big part

00:49:12.960 - 00:49:31.250

of it. And I have to think particularly for young women who are thinking about their sexuality. That that and and and ways to act on it or not act on it. I actually think that had a very pernicious effect because you didn't you didn't own it

00:49:31.260 - 00:49:52.690

and you were, I think they would be afraid. I'm talking about with heterosexual relationships. That how would the man view this? Were you being a loving person or was this a means to either entangle him or acquire things and tell me what could be more repulsive

00:49:52.690 - 00:50:09.660

than that? That's about that's that's very impulsive. I was wondering, like, have you noticed over the years that, like, the popularity of the term, like goes up and down? Or have you noticed that it's like since you went on this whole campaign, that it's been mostly

00:50:09.660 - 00:50:25.530

down and then it pops up here and there. I think it's been mostly down. I was interviewed. And it's also in the papers by a reporter from the jewish forward who um sort of asked her colleagues what happened to jewish american princess stereotype and she wrote

00:50:25.530 - 00:50:43.260

an article about it because she just thought being younger, not really aware of this that had sort of died on its own and wasn't the result of this concerted effort of individuals and organizations. So, I take a lot. I mean, I'm very grateful for the experience

00:50:43.260 - 00:51:00.800

because it taught me a lot, but it also reinforces what I really believe and that is that a small group of individuals can make a big difference. And I hope anyone listening to this who is contemplating taking some sort of action that might resemble it, recognizes

00:51:00.810 - 00:51:21.320

that that is absolutely absolutely true. And that if something is in need of addressing and even if you're not getting the kind of support that you would like to have pursue it anyway, because you just cannot imagine what you are able to accomplish once you have

00:51:21.330 - 00:51:41.730

the right motivation and the right argument. Um So you've mentioned marvelous mrs Maisel a few times. I'm wondering if you've seen the show? I have and yeah so what do you tell me your thoughts? I'm conflicted about it. I think I'm thinking. Okay so let's talk

00:51:41.730 - 00:52:00.120

about the production value of it. The production value of it is wonderful. The performances are great. I think the characters are complex. They're not cardboard cutouts. Um as you because we could certainly go back through film. I mean in jewish and and depictions of jewish women,

00:52:00.120 - 00:52:31.220

we could have a whole other discussion about that. On the other hand, it's definitely a lens of an upper class jewish woman who while she is certainly being brazen, certainly doing something that is unorthodox. There's a lot about her her uh frequently let me her familiarity

00:52:31.230 - 00:52:50.610

with brands and names and acquisition that does make me bristle because we've all seen it. For example when I talk about the JAP handbook there was a preppy handbook which preceded the JAP handbook. So it talked about many of the same things and we all know

00:52:50.620 - 00:53:09.290

uh when you look at those side by side what that when you look at the preppy handbook the aspirations and the acquisition and that is very positive that scene you would want to look preppy. Um because that is sort of you know the standard and this

00:53:09.290 - 00:53:30.600

view of America that is very misguided about who is the demography that you most want to be part of but you would never attribute those same kind of aspirational qualities to the Jap handbook. So the jury's out on this. I I don't know today that I

00:53:30.600 - 00:53:45.930

can make a pronouncement. I will say I'm conflicted about it personally. Like I don't I'm not sure that also I'm not sure to what extent I consider it any Semitic but I've noticed with Amy Sherman Palladino like that because she also created Gilmore Girls. Like she

00:53:45.940 - 00:54:01.720

is like the runner of these shows that are like claimed to be feminists but really if you look at the underlying message is there like hugely anti feminist and like sexist messages. Well I'm so glad that I have never watched Gilmore Girls. So I know the

00:54:01.720 - 00:54:17.360

premise of it is a young mother right as was she married, unmarried teenage mother who is bring her child up in a small town. So please I don't know that much about it. Why would you say it's anti feminist? Okay well I watched Gilmore Girls a

00:54:17.360 - 00:54:29.180

few years ago, I couldn't get through it because at a certain point I was I was like watching it all consecutively and I was picking up on the messages like way too strongly and I really disliked them. So my my rant about Gilmore girls is not

00:54:29.180 - 00:54:49.140

as detailed and strong as it used to be but basically um like so let's see Laura Lies the mother and she has her baby Roy and like she cuts off basically communications with her parents and like sort of the point that they have this banter, Lorelei

00:54:49.140 - 00:55:03.030

and Rory throughout the show, and it's supposed to be like a smart feminist sort of thing, but but then like, there will be like, comments that like, oh Rory, like, you don't need to be smart because you're so pretty and like these things will come up

00:55:03.030 - 00:55:17.430

multiple times, which it's like, and then there's like so many so much bad messages when it comes to sex, like, so I mean, firstly there's Lorelei who has sex as a teenager and gets pregnant, and I'm not saying that that's bad or anything, but that's not

00:55:17.430 - 00:55:32.010

what she wanted for her life, and then she basically, this show is her dealing with the consequences, she still had a good life, but but that's that's number one secondly Rory, First time she has sex is with her ex boyfriend who's married, so like, she's like

00:55:32.010 - 00:55:46.860

making, like, not the smartest decisions when it comes to her sex life, and then there's a girl who really knows at school her name is paris and she's like, the valedictorian of the school and she has sex and that's how and like the next day she

00:55:46.860 - 00:56:08.560

finds out she doesn't get into Harvard, and so she's like, just punishment associated with many, many times, right? So there used to be, and then there's more, but well what's what I find very disconcerting about the character of Midge and mrs Maisel is how the Children

00:56:08.560 - 00:56:23.270

are so inconsequential and um that kind of coldness towards your I mean, the stereotype cuts both ways, because then you of course, it's hard to talk about the jap stereotype without talking about the jewish mother stereotype. And of course the jewish mother stereotype was, of course,

00:56:23.270 - 00:56:44.930

about sons and making sure they were lawyers and doctors and but also maybe um this coldness or distance from their own Children so long as they unless they were pursuing these kinds of trophies. And I find the relationship of Midge with her Children, which is that

00:56:44.930 - 00:57:07.420

there sort of non existent always being shuttled to someone. I'm very uncomfortable with it, because yes, I think we all applaud that she was breaking stereotypes by becoming a comedian and and and and having this wit that probably might not have come to fruition, but for

00:57:07.420 - 00:57:27.530

her divorce from her husband, her estrangement and etcetera etcetera. But um well, and now you tell me more about the creator of it. I'm gonna look at it again, but in terms of production value and the performances, it's it's it's very easy to see why you're

00:57:27.530 - 00:57:46.180

attracted to it. It is it is outstanding in that way, but definitely I'm definitely conflicted about it. I was wondering too, like, what extent you've seen reflections of the things that you've been working on specifically related to Jeff stereotype um like coming up, like, within the

00:57:46.180 - 00:58:08.990

Me Too movement, and just how we approach feminism today. Hm That's a really big question to me. Um in a very broad sense. And I have worked on issues of domestic violence, sexual assault. I was the chair of the board of the History Women's Center. So

00:58:08.990 - 00:58:28.460

that's also been something I have worked on for many, many years. And when it comes to reproductive rights, when it comes to issues of sexual violence and the Me Too movement were the common threat to me is that women cannot be silenced. And in my own

00:58:28.460 - 00:58:42.060

work on abortion rights, very personal work where I I told my own story. My daughter told my own story in an op ed in the new york times. I don't know if that's in my I don't think it's in these things. I I need to give

00:58:42.060 - 00:59:00.160

that to you. So let me backtrack for a minute. I had been with Emily's list for 20 years. I've been on the board of planned parenthood. Uh, much of my life has been devoted to reproductive rights. My I had an abortion pre roe v wade Uh

00:59:00.170 - 00:59:19.000

in 1972 in the fall of 1972 when I was a college senior and I had to travel to another state where it was legal. And that was all a matter of really incredible serendipity that and luck that the counselor at UT who could have easily said

00:59:19.000 - 00:59:32.410

there's nothing we can I can do. And I could have had the fate of many people who went to Mexico and had illegal abortions and risked their lives and future fertility. Actually told me about a clinic in New Mexico that had a mental health exception. And

00:59:33.040 - 00:59:52.470

I was able with the help of my now husband Gerald to Garner the funds and go there. But the whole experience was one that uh was one of collective guilt and shame which imprinted itself on me for decades. I elected to tell each of my daughters

00:59:52.470 - 01:00:11.990

on the eve of their departure for college about it because we could not have ever gotten any support from our parents. In fact it would have been, I can predictably and very predictably a horrible experience. And I wanted each one of them to know that as

01:00:11.990 - 01:00:27.910

they became adults that there was not any subject or anything that they could not come to Gerald, my husband or me for support and using this as an example. They were both shocked because like people today, they still don't think they know anyone who's had an

01:00:27.910 - 01:00:50.790

abortion and particularly their mother. And they also knew my uh identity as a mother is extremely strong. I'm very close to both my daughters and that it just just reconciling that. But of course they understood the circumstances. Um So it became this uh um it was

01:00:50.790 - 01:01:13.380

a family secret but it was something that was only known within the confines of our family and a few friends. Let's fast forward to 2003. No No No 2013, Sorry. Uh I had gone to Austin and my Wendy Davis was doing her filibuster in the texas

01:01:13.380 - 01:01:35.470

legislature to prevent the closing of uh abortion clinics in texas. And my older daughter who is a lawyer and works at the capitol for nonprofits happened to know she's, we have since labeled her as one of these people that uh has this recognition ability where she

01:01:35.470 - 01:01:47.000

meets somebody once and she knows their name and she can remember. So she knew everybody in the capital within a very short time, which is why we got up into the gallery because she knew the way and she knew who to talk to. So both my

01:01:47.000 - 01:02:03.960

daughters and I were in the gallery and we were there that night and we were part of that unruly mob that shouted down the legislator legislature and didn't allow them to vote the next morning and we knew that was temporary. But there was, It was, the

01:02:03.960 - 01:02:16.190

funny thing is we were about to enter one of my daughters said, mother, please don't get arrested. And I said well if they if these Texas Rangers touch you, I will be getting arrested. But I had to stop because I had never seen that many young

01:02:16.190 - 01:02:34.550

people at the Capitol since I protested the Vietnam War in 1969. It was wow. Um so the next morning my younger daughter Beth and I were on a plane to colorado and before we got on the plane, we heard the defense of marriage act had gone

01:02:34.550 - 01:02:50.300

down in the Supreme Court and we weren't sitting with one another. But so when we got off the plane, my younger daughter said to me Beth I have a theory as to why the same amount of time women's rights have retreated and gay rights have gone

01:02:50.300 - 01:03:11.700

forward. And that's because gay gay people excuse me, have come out and they have courageously done that. And everyone knows someone who's gay but women have not told their reproductive histories and no one thinks they know anyone who's had an abortion and mom, they don't think

01:03:11.700 - 01:03:27.460

it's you, they have a construct of who this woman is. Uh she's a minority. She doesn't want to become a mother. She's you know, licentious all these things. And she said, and I want to write an op ed about this and I want to write about

01:03:27.460 - 01:03:45.950

your story because and after what I'd witnessed in the capital and how these people had just been vermin and trampled women's rights with just with just with no compunction I thought you know what, she's right. So she submitted an article, she submitted an op ed and

01:03:45.950 - 01:03:59.740

it was published in the new york times. It was called my mother's abortion. And of course that's a whole other chapter, which I should be giving rice those archives as well. How we started a nonprofit to encourage women to talk about their reproductive histories. Now I've

01:03:59.740 - 01:04:22.710

forgotten your original question, Amanda, which is about me too. Yes. So what I would say in all of my work, be it dispelling the stereotype, be it electing pro choice democratic women, uh, working with survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence, reproductive rights to name a

01:04:22.710 - 01:04:44.450

few. The common thread is that women cannot be silenced. And yes, I see in this next general, I mean, as I said, it's all about lighting other torches and to have any um, backtracking of this movement is painful to me as we look about what's with

01:04:44.450 - 01:05:03.050

reproductive rights and the Supreme Court appointments that are just perilous. Um, but I have to say the advent of social media is being harnessed in such a way, you know, it's worrisome too because people can be bullied and in in ways that I never could have

01:05:03.050 - 01:05:24.270

imagined that would silence you. But I'm glad to see that for the most part, although there's always backlash there is that for the most part, women are gaining a sense of community and feeling more empowered to tell their stories because my hope is particularly the president

01:05:24.270 - 01:05:46.110

who is an admitted sexual predator who's still white women elected as well. So that's that's discouraging that um more men are being held accountable and of course when you look at institutions like the university of uh pennsylvania. I mean penn state and the catholic church and

01:05:46.110 - 01:06:06.650

the southern baptist. I mean it goes on and on and that part is discouraging because still women are subjected to to so much and we have so many struggles that we thought, some of which we thought we had one. But I'm hopeful, especially after these recent

01:06:06.650 - 01:06:26.140

midterms to have all of these new members of Congress, all of these democratic women, uh, some of whom would never have imagined themselves in Congress, they're much more representative of our country. And that is so edifying and strengthening to our society. So, I'm sorry, I know

01:06:26.140 - 01:06:40.840

that's a very long answer, right? But I could going on about all of these things. I just want to ask you one last thing and that's if there's anything you think I left out or anything else you want to share? Hmm, I don't know. That's a

01:06:40.840 - 01:07:00.780

hard question to Amanda. Is there anything you've left out? You've asked me very good questions. Um, is there anything I would still like to share? I think what I would say even for a veteran like me of, of so many movements of so many battles of

01:07:00.780 - 01:07:21.710

so many elections, there's still so much to learn and I am eager to learn from younger women about ways to combat the kinds of things I've been dealing with it. Unfortunately, we're all still dealing with in terms of the status of women and I'm hopeful I'm

01:07:21.710 - 01:07:42.940

hopeful that, uh, first of all, after the installation of trump. I was convinced and still am that women will save this country. And I believe it 100%. I would actually now amend it to say based on the last election. Women of colour are saving this country

01:07:44.250 - 01:08:04.440

and I have two granddaughters now. So just like my two daughters with the jap stereotype. Now I look at my granddaughter's eyes and I didn't have to have granddaughters. I still would have cared. But it's much more personal to me. And I feel the weight of

01:08:04.440 - 01:08:27.080

that responsibility even more that the kind of work I've done and people like me, it has to go on. We have got to improve things. And and for that part I feel that the the demographic of white men is shrinking and they do know that and

01:08:27.080 - 01:08:44.080

that is why this power grab is so horrible. But I look forward to the time that their hold on America is diminished. I do. So you didn't ask me that. But that's something I'm looking forward to. I can't think of a better way to end than

01:08:44.080 - 01:08:46.160

that. All right.