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My name is Nori Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Found Library of Grace University. I am interviewing Sarah Hickman. Today is July 31st, 2017. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. So, could you tell me about your early life and what

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drew you to music? Wow. Uh So that's two questions. So let me start with the first one of my early life. I grew up in Houston, Texas in an area called Sharpstown. And uh I had two parents that were visual artists. My dad was a painter

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and an illustrator and a, a renaissance man. And my mom was a fiber artist, also known as weaving, uh and um photographer, writer and also a renaissance person. So I had a really wonderful childhood and I rode my bike. I played games. We did all the

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things kids do. I used to build um volcanoes and I wanted to be a paleontologist in the first place and I would put my dinosaurs all around the volcano and then I turn on the water and blow everything up. Um And then I thought I wanted

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to be a underwater architect um, and then I found music and that's all I wanted to do. So I had very supportive parents, um, and a really, really fun childhood and then I was drawn to music because, um, I was inherently lonely and there was something

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about the guitar that I really felt a kinship with. Um, it felt like it was my best friend and, and I could tell it my secrets and I could learn new chords and put my fingers on the neck and, and strum the strings and just be

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amazed at what the guitar could do and then melding my voice with the guitar together. We were a team. It was really great. So I just knew I wanted to do music because it made me feel good to be able to express myself and share um

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my music with other people and, and get a response. Um I would guess that's probably why I became a musician. What were your first performances like? Um, well, my very first performance, I guess I was in first grade at Ed White Elementary in Sharpstown. And there

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was a poetry contest underway, a patriotic poetry contest and the daughters of the American revolution were, were putting it on. So, uh I decided to write a poem about the bald eagle. And then I thought, oh, I can just turn it into a song. So I

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think that was maybe the first song I ever wrote. And then you got on the stage in the cafeteria, you know, and you had the little microphone on the stand and I had my little guitar and I sang the song and I went in first place

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and that was very exciting. And then, um that, that was the first time I heard myself on a microphone as a big voice. And I was like, wow, this is so cool. Uh Then my second performance, oh, there was a, there was three other girls. I

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don't remember who it was. Um But it was also in elementary school, fifth grade maybe. And, and we would all sit together. I would play guitar and the four of us would sing. Um But then, you know, I just, I kept finding places to play family

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reunions or whatever. And then when I was 14, I had my first paid gig. Um oh, I had won several um really fun uh uh talent contests in junior high too. That was really fun. One of them I was up against this guy dressed like Dolly

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Parton and he had water balloons for breasts and during his performance of 9 to 5 or whatever, uh one of the balloons broke and the, and you know, all the students were crazy. Everybody was laughing and I thought, oh, he's gonna win first place because I

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sang probably nobody does it better by Carly Simon and part of Stairway to Heaven. And a song I wrote for my boyfriend at the time Greg Greg's song. Uh, so I went, and I went first place. That was crazy. Uh Anyway, even though Dolly Parton had

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one boob, I don't know how I beat that. But anyway, so, uh, so my, when I was 14, I had my first gig that I got paid $450 to sing at a private event for the Houston Oilers. And I was the only female there. I was

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the smallest person there and I was the only one with the guitar walking around singing. And uh that was just really weird, but I survived here. I am. Um So I assume shortly after that you started, um you had started to attend the um high school

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for the performing and visual arts. What did you learn there? What did you take away? Wow. Um Well, I had gone to HS PB A at some point. Maybe I was still in elementary school, but my mom had been a part of the opening of the

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school and she taught fiber arts and she would take me down to the school in the summer. I guess they had summer classes and I was taking a theater class and uh that beautiful theater they had that used to be a Jewish temple. Anyway, so then

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years go by and I, I went there for high school. Um IIII I have to go back to my loneliness question. Uh I always just felt really odd and when I, when I went to that high school, I felt even more odd even though I was

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surrounded by people more like me. Um which was a relief because growing up in a suburb, I was always felt like the odd person because my parents were the only artist. We were, you know, my dad painted nude women. We had paintings of nude women in

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our house and the kids would come over and I look at them like naked ladies. Anyway. So I had been odd but now I was in a school full of misfits and it was really great. Um But they were all really great people. They were very

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talented, they were depressives, they were moody and, and funny and doing drugs and, you know, just I met my first gay friend there. I had a crush on this boy named Victor Flanagan who's no longer with us. Uh And he was the first to tell me

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he was gay and I was like, well, I'm happy too and he's like, no. Uh so it was, you know, it was an exciting place to be. Uh Yeah, you know, it certainly helped me um deepen what I had been doing, especially because of a woman

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named Pat Bonner who was the uh music director at that school, not the instrumental section, uh the vocals, vocal department and uh my parents were going through divorce. So it was a even more awkward time and I would sit in the stairwell and play my guitar

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and sing songs. And Miss Bonner came out one day and said, you know, uh, we get phone calls at the school for people looking for someone to come play at a bank opening or a wedding. And I just got a call from a psych unit and

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they would love someone from here to come perform for the kids and they're all your age. What do you say? And I said, no, that sounds terrifying. And she goes, no, I, I think you're the person for it. So I went to this, um, psych unit

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and that was my first time to do music therapy. I didn't know what music therapy was. I didn't know what I was supposed to do. And, and I went in during a lockdown. So I got locked down in with them because the boy had thrown the

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chair and, uh, and they were an angry crowd. And, uh, so I just shyly started singing some songs and they were singing along and, and I was just blown away by how the effect of music calmed everyone down. And, I mean, they turned off the ac

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they were really putting some pressure on us, like punishing us for this one chair, boy, you know, whatever. But it, it really, it really woke my heart up to, oh, music isn't just something I write for me because I got my feelings hurt it or because

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I want to talk about this bird I found in the snow or whatever, you know, or because I love John Denver. It, it's a way of connecting and making people outside of myself feel good. And that I am so grateful to Miss Bonner and HS PB

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A for that because then she would send me on other assignments and she totally changed the course of my life. I think I would have just, I don't know that I would have had the life I had if Miss Bonner hadn't come out in that stairwell

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and said, I think you should do this. She sounds really special and she's still teaching there. So this is, you know, I graduated in 81 91 2001, 2011. Yeah, she's been there 36 years. And after you graduated, um, you went on to, uh, the North Texas

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State University in Denton. Why did you decide to go there? Well, that's a good question and there's a little bit missing. So, um, I was at HS PB A and, you know, time to think about college and I don't remember there being discussions at home about

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college per se, like nowadays or even then I guess. But, um, there was a girl at HS PB A named Stephanie Clark who's really beautiful and everybody loved her and she's just a, and she was gonna go to a school called East Texas State University, which

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had a really good art department. And I had decided I would go do art because my mom had said, well, there's no money in music, in the music industry. Go take art. And you could be a professor like we were and make money. And I was

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like, oh, ok. So, so I, I went to East Texas State because of Stephanie Clark. And I had a really amazing year there. I, um, just so many amazing things happened and I fell in love with my painting professor. So we had a tort affair and

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then he sadly died of stomach cancer. Um And uh that was hard. So he while I was at East Texas State, he said you should go to Rhode Island School of Design. You're a really good artist. And I said, OK, so I applied and allegedly I

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got in but I didn't get a scholarship. So then I, I didn't want to stay at East Texas anymore because I had a boyfriend. Uh uh probably not after the incident with the professor but very nice boyfriend. Sorry John. Um so I decided to come back

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to Houston and figure out what I wanted to do. And my father was teaching at the University of Houston. So that made sense. So I went to University of Houston for a year and studied art there, which as an a funniest side, I was taking one

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class with my dad and I didn't want people to know I was his daughter. So you know, everything's going hunky dory. And one day I came in and I'd seen my dad that weekend and I went up and I said, hey, that was really, I had

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a great weekend with you. Thanks. And I went and sat at my desk to start drawing and these other students came over and said, hey, are you having an affair with Mr Hickman. Professor Hickman? And I was like, I know that's my dad. They were like,

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oh, right. Ok. Ok. Because that felt kind of weird after having had that other experience at the other college. So, and plus it's my dad. So, um, so I was there for a year and then I don't know how or why, but I went to University

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of North Texas then called North Texas State University for Art. And I graduated there and got my degree in art and I was gonna be an advertising direct director for Hallmark Cards. That was my goal at that point because I was still thinking there's no life

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in music even though I was still playing in clubs and making money and playing in bands by then and having a great old time. So I would play music at night and make art during the day. And, uh, so that's, that's that part of that story.

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Well, can you talk about that and that music community that you became a part of up there? Yeah. Um, actually, you know, East Texas, I had played in a pizza hut and a place called Butch's Barn, which was an Italian restaurant and I had a lot

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of fun at Butch's Barn. And, oh, can I tell you a story? Oh, my gosh. So, at east East Texas. So there was a place called The Happy Armadillo and it was down on the square and it was a really cute little Historic Square and it

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was a pretty rough bar. Uh, it had pool tables and, you know, a bar and somehow I got a gig there and I would play there and I used to wear high heels and panty hose and dresses like I would wear to church because I didn't

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know how to dress. I was just, you know, I had a little AMP and I had my guitar and I would go and sit in this corner and sing. So I'm in the Happy Armadillo one night and I'm singing and this whole crew of these, um,

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hells Angels came in. They just come up on their big Harleys and they walked in the door and I don't know, there's like 18 of them and they all start playing pool and they're having fun and they're being rowdy and I'm over my corner singing my

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Joni Mitchell songs or whatever I'm doing in my church dress. And, uh, they got in this fight, I don't know what happened, but also they had their pool six and they were like hitting each other and yelling and beers flying. And I'm like, la, la, la,

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la, la, la. So, um, and then this really big strong guy goes, hey, shut the f up. Could you see the ladies trying to sing? And I'm like, huh? I'm like, oh, where can I go? Nowhere? I'm in this corner. So he comes over and all

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these motorcyclists come over and they got their leather on. I mean, they look great. They got their bandannas on and he's, they pull up these chairs like, like preschoolers and they sat in this half circle around me and they sat down and they were like, ma'am,

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do you know this Paul Simon song or do you know anything by America or the Eagles or whatever? And I was like, yeah. And so I'm singing and they're all singing and it was awesome. I thought they were gonna come over and kill me and it

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turned into like preschool, Sarah kill her preschool Sara. Um Anyway, so that was East Texas. So I didn't know other musicians in East Texas. U of H I didn't, I didn't know anybody. I didn't know the music scene in Houston and I didn't have any, I

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mean, I knew Gretchen but Gretchen was gone and uh sorry Gretchen Phillips. Um So then North Texas was really fun because of uh there was, I was doing the same thing I was playing in little weirdo places. There was a place called the library which was

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a bar and, uh, I would go take my car and sing my, by then I was singing more of my own material. I was still doing covers. But, uh, I remember when Halloween I dressed up in a kid's like wonder Woman costume or something and it

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was that weird polyurethane vinyl or whatever that kids were. It's got that baby powder inside of it. Anyway, I stretched it and I wore this kid. I, I probably could really get, um, anyway, I was on stage singing that. So I started meeting musicians because I

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did this show called Doctor Fungus. And it was a cable access show. And this guy, I guess had seen me at the library and he said, I want you to be on my show. And I was like, OK, and he, it was this guy, I think

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his name was Bruce and he had a dog and they both wore bandannas and sunglasses. I think I'm getting, or they both wore sunglasses and they sat next to each other and then you did your thing, the talk show part and then you sang songs. So

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he had pre-recorded me in his kitchen somewhere in Denton. And, uh, because I wanted to sing harmonies to myself. So I went to his kitchen. He put a probably, I don't know, a cassette player on his table. I don't know what he did. But I sang

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the song and sang the regular part and then I played some pots and pans and we put that on there and then he played that during the show and I played guitar and sang harmony to myself. I don't know, it was crazy. But then I sang

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the second song, which was a song called Simply. And I tell you this because a man named Carl Finch happened to see this little program on TV and called the TV station and they gave him my number and he called me and he said, are you

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sort of? And I was like, yes, he's like, I'm with, and I did you write that song? And I was like, yeah, and he's like, that's a great song and you need to make a record. And I was like, OK, and the next thing I knew

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Carl was at my apartment and he brought over all this music and, and, and it was like my second Pat Bonner experience. I mean, Carl changed the course of my life. He definitely said you cannot be another girl with a guitar. You're better, you're bigger than

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that, which I found kind of insulting in that moment like, well, what does that mean? I didn't really, and he was playing me world music and this was before world world music was a thing. And I was listening to, and I was listening to the West

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African music and stuff from Brazil and I was like, what has this got to do with me? You know, with making music and getting a record. I mean, this is not nobody listens. What is this? You know, but I also got that, Carl had this energy

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and this vibrancy and this enthusiasm and passion and, and that stuck on me all of a sudden I wanted to be like Carl and, um, you know, and I started doing gigs with Brave Combo sometimes and I started dating the drummer in the band and, you

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know, and then I made my first recording, it was a little 45 single. And in the meantime, I was playing in a reggae band, uh called the Lone Star dub band. And I was the lone chick in the band. I had, I only tell you what

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I'm wearing because it's really important in the industry of what women wear. So, you know, I had on fishnet heath and a leather skirt and I would play the keyboards, bubble style and I would sing harmonies and it was really fun. Reggae music is so much

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fun and sometimes I'd play electric guitar. Um So I was in the Lone Star up band and then I was in a, a bluegrass band called The Big Corral, which was really fun. And so it was this core group of musicians that I started meeting and

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they, and they're all men and they were all a little older than me, but they were all really smart and they were all making me mix tapes and they were saying, oh, you listen to this and this and this and they suddenly my world went from

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Hart and led Zeppelin and John Denver and to Antonio Carlos and, you know, just David Byrne. And I mean, it was amazing. It blew my world open and I started shifting what I was doing on stage and Carl was very animated and bubbly. And just so

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he's, he's just amazing, amazing human being. I started kind of mimicking that. I it's ok for me to talk during songs. It's ok for me to explain why this is important to me. Maybe it'll be important to you. So I was having all these experiences in

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Denton and, um, and it just broadened my whole perspective about what I could do on the guitar because I started learning different styles. And I had been taking some classical guitar at North Texas, which was really great because at the time, I wasn't supposed to be

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in a music class because I was an art major. But the classical guitar teacher said, well, I just spent like midway through this semester, you're not supposed to be in here, but you're doing such a great job and you obviously love this class. So I'm gonna

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let you stay in because a lot of the other kids have to take because they have to. That was another boring aside, I'm sure. But anyway, um so, yeah, so Carl Finch changed my world and uh, then he said, let's make that record and we made

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equal scary people and, uh, he was producing it, but he would be doing other stuff or on tour. And I got impatient and I said I can produce. And then so I produced some of the songs, but it was really, uh, Carl and, and Jeffrey Barnes

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who plays or played, um, saxophone with babe combo. He suggested I do, this is a man's man's Man's World, the James Brown song. And I never heard that song and I heard it and I knew what Jeffrey meant. And, um, you know, I just, that's, if

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you ever listen to equal, equal scary people, you'll see how much of an influence Carl was because there's my songs song for my father and simply, and Carl did a beautiful job producing simply. Um, but then there's, this is a man's world and there's, I wish

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I were a princess, which was Carl's suggestion, which is this 19 fifties kinda. I always have a princess. It's like it doesn't have anything to do with folk music, but there it is. Um, and because of that album, which has a whole another story, uh I

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got signed to lecture records. Do wanna go ahead and share a story. So, what, um am I? Um, so, so I was at North Texas, I was having a ball. I had a really interesting boyfriend with a big blue motorcycle. Um, things were happening. I started

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to play in Dallas. Um I don't know how that I, I there was a really cool place called Club Data. It's still there, but this was in 1985 86 and Deep Bellum was just starting to blow up. Actually, it was, I wouldn't say it was starting

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to blow up. It was becoming of heightened interest to people that were aware of what was there. And so this little club clear view. Um club data, all these really great little clubs were opening. And traditionally, um Port David's pub over on Greenville Avenue had been

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the place people would play. But now suddenly when we had these other venues you could play in. So I was playing over at club dot M Brave Combo was playing there in 10 Hands and, and the New bohemians and all these people. Um And then I

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started playing at Poor David's pub and uh Port David David Card. He's a great, great guy. He said he saw me at an open mic and he says, you know, I want you to come to an opener. And I was like, oh yay, how much do

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you pay? And he said $25 and I said you're gonna have to pay me $50. And he said $50 why would I pay you $50? And I was like, because I'm worth $50. I have to get dressed up. I have to put my stuff in the

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car, I have to get all the way here and then I'm gonna put on a great show for 30 minutes and then I have to pack it all up and go home. So I think I deserve $50 and he's like, ok, thank you. Um And then

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that was my lifelong beginning of a great relationship with David who's like a father to me. Um So I was playing in these places and Uncle Calvin's had opened, I was playing there. It was inside North Park Presbyterian Church. It's still their great, great, great venue.

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And that was kind of at the beginning of the folk coffee house scene in Dallas. I believe they were one of the first, if not the first. So I had a nice little circuit I could play. And so I was starting to get pressed and things

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are starting to happen. And I had graduated from North Texas and I moved to Dallas and I ended up winning some of the Dolls Observer Awards and I ended up being on the cover of the dolls Observer with three other up and coming musicians. Um I

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mean that for all four of us, not just the three of them, all four of us were up and coming. Um So somehow this rag ended up in New York City on the vice president of Electra's desk. And from what he told me a long time

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ago, he looked down, it ended up on his desk, he looked down and he saw my, there was an illustration of me on the cover and he liked my name. He liked how it sounded. Sarah Hickman. And I guess he probably read the article about me.

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And he called down to Texas and asked somebody to send a copy of my record up because Carl and I put the, I it was out, the record was out and so unbeknownst to me, uh, he was looking into me and I, because I had this

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record out, I could get press. Um, but outside of Texas, nobody really knew about me. But this band called Kill Billy, which was a punk bluegrass band. They called me and they said, hey, we want to go on tour. Do you want to go on tour?

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And I was like, well, sure. And they said, well, great because you have a record, we can get press and because we're a band, we can get gigs and so we can tour together. And I said, oh, that's wonderful. So here I was in a van

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with six or seven guys driving through the Midwest. And, um, we got to Lawrence Kansas and my manager that I'd just gotten called me and said, hey, the Vice President Elect Records is gonna fly down to Kansas and come see you at your show tonight. And

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I was like, what? And when I was a little girl, a lecture was the label. I wanted to be on because it was the most artistic. It had everybody you love was on lecture. I guarantee it. Um, so I had just gotten a credit card and

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I went and bought a new dress and some boots and whatever. And I got to the club and I did my sound check and people started coming in, you know, 20 people. And, um, I started to play and then I stopped and I said, I know

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you all have no idea who I am. And thanks for coming out tonight to hear Kill Billy. And, but I'm wondering if you could do me a favor because I got a call earlier that the Vice president of Elector Records is coming from New York. He's

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gonna be in here tonight to hear me sing and I've worked all my life to get to this one point. So if you could act like you really liked my music after every song, it would really mean so much to me. So they're all like, yeah.

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Yeah. And my great uncle Joe was there. That was exciting too. He's a great guy. He was sorry. Um Anyway, so I start playing and I look over and I see this tall handsome guy all in black come and he sits down and um, oh, I

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had also told the audience he'll probably be wearing black. So when you see a guy all in black in, that's, that's the guy. So I'm singing my songs. I finished the song, he sat down and the audience goes, yeah. And they're just going crazy and there's

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beer spilling and even the bartender was like, clinking glasses, you know, and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm acting cool like, yeah, of course. You know. So I sing my next song. Same thing. They go nuts and third song, they go nuts and I think I

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finished after that. And so I was trying to be cool. You know, I get off stage, I go to the bar to get a drink and I get noticed that this man wants me to come over to this table. So I go to the table. He

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stands up and he says, hello, my name is Howard Thompson and I'm from lecture records and I just have to say that's really amazing. The audience that was quite a response to your performance. And I was like, ah, you know, um, so he had me sit

00:26:58.209 - 00:27:08.709

down, we sat and we talk, he was lovely. Lovely. He's still a lovely human being. And, uh, so we had a shot at Tequila together and he told me he was interested and then he started coming to my shows and that's how I got signed to

00:27:08.719 - 00:27:33.699

lecture records. Ok. So how was your time with Electra? How was my time with the lecture? Um, well, fabulous. You know, amazing. I, uh, right away. It was, well, what happened was right before lecture. Um, I had met a woman named Christine Lavin who's an amazing

00:27:33.709 - 00:27:51.020

musician. And I had done a show with her and Brad Combo at the Arcadia in Dallas, a big old theater and I played, then Bret Combo played and Christine Lavin played and I'm only telling you this because it has a purpose. Uh So after the show,

00:27:51.030 - 00:28:04.089

Christine came up to me and said, you know, you need to talk to my friends at Windham Hill Records and you're amazing. And, and I was like, you're amazing. And she said, no, seriously. So she told me what to do. And I sent a, a cassette

00:28:04.099 - 00:28:21.550

demo tape of me playing in front of my little radio shack cassette recording to uh Windham Hill Records. And, um she told me on the outside of the package to put from Christine Lavin up in the return address area. So I did and then I got

00:28:21.560 - 00:28:37.729

a call from Will Ackerman who owned and founded Windham Hill and he said, I got, I got your demo and, uh I think you're pretty good. I really like this song Salvador. And I said, oh, that's great. And that was a song I'd written about Salvador

00:28:37.739 - 00:28:53.390

Dolly. Um He said, but I don't think that song's done and I never had anybody say that to me before. And I was a little snippety. I was like, what do you mean? I think it's done and he said, no, you need to go in and,

00:28:53.400 - 00:29:08.780

and and finish it. And so I was annoyed and I said, OK, all right. And I hung up and then, and then I started thinking about it and I knew he was right. I knew that that song was not done and I went and I sat

00:29:08.790 - 00:29:23.359

with it and it was really hard because I would guess perhaps other songwriters feel this way too. It's, you, you know, the truth, you know, when a song is gold and, you know, when a song is brass and, you know, when a song is just dirt,

00:29:24.160 - 00:29:44.109

this song was in between brass and gold and I couldn't figure out what to do what to do. And then I started realizing what was missing. Um, and so I, the song doesn't have a chorus. It has two bridges which I guess could be considered a

00:29:44.119 - 00:30:01.270

chorus, but they're not. So these two bridges suddenly became apparent and I wrote them in and I re-recorded it and I sent it to him and he was like, ah, that's the song. So, so he put me on this compilation CD with all these songwriters, I'd

00:30:01.280 - 00:30:18.219

never heard of John Gorka Pierce, Pettis Cliff Eberhart, amazing songwriters. And at the same time Electra had heard Salvador and all of a sudden they liked Salvador. So there was this little thing going on between Windham Hill and Electra and I got permission to be on

00:30:18.229 - 00:30:33.719

this Windham Hill compilation because what we were doing with Electra was taking some time. So I went on my first tour with that and we can talk about that later because your question was about Electra. So um so then uh I licensed Equal Scary People. My

00:30:33.729 - 00:30:51.239

first album to Electra, which is great. That means I retained the master for the rest of my life once a certain number of years passes by and they've exploited that material. Um So a lecture was magnificent because I went from being a girl who was playing

00:30:51.250 - 00:31:14.599

bars and getting some local press to all of a setting appearing on the Tonight Show and, and having videos shot of me and being interviewed for CMJ or you know, going to um Friday morning, Friday, Friday morning quarterback FMQB. Yes. So I, I learned this whole

00:31:14.609 - 00:31:29.119

new world of radio and going into magazines and there was Pulse which was Tower Records Magazine and you would go to these headquarters and you would perform and you would schmooze with people and it was titillating and it was exhausting because if you say yes to

00:31:29.130 - 00:31:41.449

anything, a label asked you to do you, they will go hog wild, which is great. You know, at this point in my life, it was great. I had all this energy. I was 26 years old. I was probably pretty cute and I, I had a song

00:31:41.459 - 00:31:54.420

to sing and joy in my heart. And so it was fun. It was fun for people to interview me and it was fun to give interviews. And, um, and then Shortstop came out my second album and then it just went through the roof and all of

00:31:54.430 - 00:32:05.300

a sudden all these other things are happening and it just, it was, it was like getting to be in the 1% is the best way I can put it. I guess all of a sudden I knew what a yacht was and I knew what a, you

00:32:05.310 - 00:32:18.880

know, convention was and I knew what, how people lived on the other side and they live really well. And um I wasn't living like that. I'm just saying that's what it felt like. Um So, although my financial status did change, so I won't lie about that.

00:32:19.239 - 00:32:39.010

Um Then uh I, it started with this thing for Hollywood Records. I'm still on a lecture. But um there's a, a movie coming out called Arachnophobia and I was singing a song that they were gonna use as the lead song for the movie and the album.

00:32:40.420 - 00:32:52.949

And there was a video to be shot to the song and I went to shoot the video and there was a lot of R and Maru wrote about how I was to be painted blue and to be naked on this big spider web. And I said

00:32:52.959 - 00:33:07.239

no, and all the clothing that was, there was very sexy and Victoria Secret like, and I said no to that. And so the only other clothes there were the clothes the stylist herself was wearing and I asked if I could borrow it. So we switched clothes

00:33:07.250 - 00:33:22.780

and I wore her silk skirt and a little white top. And anyway, that got back to the head of Electra, of course, and I think he wasn't too pleased with that. That was kind of the start of the downfall because I think he wanted to promote

00:33:22.790 - 00:33:44.349

me more sexually because back then I had a bigger mouth when I was younger. Um I think he wanted to be more like a Taylor Dane. And so then I started working on my third record which was Necessary Angels and it was me and Paul Fox.

00:33:45.250 - 00:34:02.469

Angelo Bae. The three of us were the producers for this album. And Paul Fox is a great producer. He's worked with XCC and The Wall Flowers. And so he has a very definitive pop sound. Angelo Boe does all the music for Twin Peaks and the David

00:34:02.479 - 00:34:15.399

Lynch films and he has also a very definitive sound and then there's me and, uh, this would have been my third album to produce on and I would, I by then I was getting pretty savvy and I felt like I could play with the big boys.

00:34:16.120 - 00:34:36.219

But what happened? And nobody was foreseeing was that you have three very different styles, three and 63 different styles. And when the master was turned into Bob Krass, now who is the head of Electra? He said, No, this doesn't make any sense. And so my world

00:34:36.229 - 00:34:58.149

came tumbling down because I got dropped and suddenly all the fun was gone. All the joy was gone. And I felt like I was a huge failure and I was really embarrassed and not just embarrassed, like, for myself but embarrassed for my, for, for all of

00:34:58.159 - 00:35:11.550

us involved in it. All the people, my family, my friends, the fans who had come to my shows and really believed in me. I just felt like I let everybody down that I wasn't good enough. Obviously, I wasn't good enough because my album was gonna come

00:35:11.560 - 00:35:26.500

out. So that, that was a really hard time. That was a dark period. I, I didn't really know how to deal with that because I didn't know what that meant. So that's up to that point and then if you want more, I can keep going or

00:35:26.510 - 00:35:45.919

if you have a question, you can keep going because you, you are, you're doing so well, you can just like go with it. Um So episode two of the saga. Um I do have to, I have to comment in here that my manager Kevin Womack. Uh

00:35:45.929 - 00:36:01.100

really, I think he really got me. I think, I think the best to the best of his ability with what he'd done as a manager and with who I was and I was a wild child. I was all over the map. Um Musically I liked everything

00:36:01.110 - 00:36:13.439

in the world and I liked every boy I met and I'm sure he just had his hands full. And, uh, so he, instead of calling me the day he found out I got dropped. He actually drove from Austin up to Dallas where I was living to

00:36:13.449 - 00:36:30.260

tell me in person and he was very gracious in how he told me. And so from that day forward, I, I didn't know what to do with myself. I didn't want to go out and perform because I felt like I was stupid. I felt like I

00:36:30.270 - 00:36:49.800

didn't have anything interesting to say. And I didn't feel particularly deserving to be on stage. Um Because part of what happens when you cross over to the other side is suddenly all your dreams are coming true and it feels like you're immortal much like when you're

00:36:49.810 - 00:37:04.949

a teenager and you feel immortal, that's, that's how it feels to have your dream come true. You feel immortal to some degree. So all of a sudden I was immortal again and I wasn't very special in that sense of failing in my dream. And then I

00:37:04.959 - 00:37:18.229

was talking to my mom on the phone and I was boo hooing and having a pity party or whatever. And she said, you know, you should do something about this. And I said, I can't do anything about this. What do you mean? She said, well, it's

00:37:18.239 - 00:37:35.000

like your songs are hostages. And I said, no, I guess it's kind of, yeah, kind of because when I got dropped from what I recall was I wasn't gonna be able to rerecord my songs for five years. And that felt weird because now I also didn't

00:37:35.010 - 00:37:50.389

have control over my own music. And she said, well, you know that bracelet you wear, because at the time I was wearing a bracelet for a man named Thomas Sutherland who was a hostage in Lebanon. And I'd been doing a letter writing campaign. I'd written a

00:37:50.399 - 00:38:04.110

song for him. I had t shirts made that I threw out at my shows with the lyrics from the song and a picture of his face. And I was trying to gain awareness to help him gain his freedom. So I had Thomas Sutherland on a bracelet

00:38:04.409 - 00:38:20.310

and I said, yeah, she goes, well, look at that bracelet and think about your songs as hostages, hostages and get bracelets made that say necessary angels. And I said, well, what am I gonna do with bracelets? And she said, well, you'd sell them to fans. And

00:38:20.320 - 00:38:36.310

then I got it. I was like, of course, oh my gosh, mom, you're a genius. So I knew I had to start with the label. So I called up to New York to talk to the lawyer there and he got on the line and we started

00:38:36.320 - 00:38:53.080

chatting and, and then I said, I'm calling you for a greater purpose, which is, I would like to buy my master's back. And there was this pause and then I think he probably chuckled. And he said, well, you know, we spent over $500,000 on this record.

00:38:54.120 - 00:39:05.689

So I don't think you can buy it back. I don't think we want to sell it back. And I was like, ok, well, are you sitting at your desk? And he said yes. And I said, do you have pictures of your family at the desk, your

00:39:05.699 - 00:39:20.689

kids and your wife? And he said yes. And I said, well, I don't have a husband and I don't have kids because I chose to make music. And my songs are my Children. And you have my Children and I want my Children back. So I hung

00:39:20.699 - 00:39:34.719

up the phone and I was really upset and, um, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I just, I just thought again, part of my life has always been just ask why it can't hurt to ask. And then about, I don't know, an hour

00:39:34.729 - 00:39:48.239

later, maybe, or two hours later, my manager called and he said, what have you done? And I said, what do you mean, what have I done? He said, I just got a call from Electra and they wanna sell you your master's. And I said, really? And

00:39:48.250 - 00:40:04.459

he said, yeah, so I told him what I said, and he said, oh, they don't want 500,000, they want 100,000. And I was like, really? So then I called my mom and my mom was like, oh, you can raise $100,000. Now, this is 1993 almost 94

00:40:04.969 - 00:40:19.060

and there's no internet, there's no cell phones. I mean, cell phones are just coming on the market. But there was the only way you could reach fans back then was you did a newsletter and you, in my case, I would draw and write and do this

00:40:19.070 - 00:40:30.629

thing and put dates on it. And then I'd go to get them all xerox and then I'd put him in envelopes and put you had to lick stamps back then to lick stamps and handwrite all the addresses. And I sent out, I don't know thousands of

00:40:30.639 - 00:40:49.129

these requests to these necessary angels. And I asked if they would donate $100 each and if we got 10,000 people to donate $100 each, we could buy the master's back at $100,000. And you would get a blue aluminum necessary angel bracelet, a necessary angel embedded on

00:40:49.139 - 00:41:02.550

it. And it had a number. They remembered one through. But I think I got, I actually got 500 or 1000 major or whatever it was. Um, you get a bracelet, you get a bumper sticker. That's a necessary angel. And then I was gonna have a big

00:41:02.560 - 00:41:14.270

show after we got the masters back and it was a private party for all the necessary angels and you would, the way you get into the party is you would have your bracelet on. So this was pretty high fal and dreaming on my part. Um, and

00:41:14.280 - 00:41:37.929

nobody had ever done this. Um, so I went to the post office, I mailed all these letters out and suddenly my po box started getting responses and people wrote these beautiful letters and they sent $100 100 dollar bills, $100 checks. They would come to my shows.

00:41:38.030 - 00:41:56.699

I had kids bringing me their piggy banks or families putting money in together. I had bands, trout fishing in America. Um Trish and Trish and um, Darren Murphy and Michelle shocked and people at elect people working at the label that had just dropped me were sending

00:41:56.709 - 00:42:13.320

me $100 bill and my aunt, our man Howard Thompson sent $100. You know, it was just coming from everywhere and you know, I thought it would be a really big story. I thought it would be in all the press like here's this little little David going

00:42:13.330 - 00:42:29.959

up against Goliath. And I even had a, a woman named Joan Myers who was my media specialist, my pr person. Um But I remember her saying there's not really a story here and I kept saying, how can you not think there's a story here? Oh my

00:42:29.969 - 00:42:43.340

gosh, please help me and I'm paying you money, please help me. Um But it never broke. So I had to do it all by myself and my, and the people that helped me, but I was running this little thing out of my house. And then I

00:42:43.350 - 00:43:01.739

realized I wasn't gonna have $100,000. I was short. And so I sold my house, I sold several of my guitars and I had a miniature salt and salt. I had an antique salt and Pepper shaker collection and I sold all those and made some money. And

00:43:01.750 - 00:43:16.969

I was living with friends. I was homeless for like six or seven months. I was living on people's couches. I had all my stuff in storage and I got to $50,000 and I got stuck. And so I sent out another letter and I said, you know,

00:43:16.979 - 00:43:39.830

this is where it's at and da da da da and I guess, no, I didn't sit on, hold on. I didn't send out another letter that's coming. So my manager met the head of Discovery records. Jack holds Jack Holsman founded lecture records. He was the original

00:43:39.840 - 00:43:56.780

founder of electric Records. So my manager, Kevin and Jack are talking and Jack says, oh, you know what, Sarah should come over to Discovery and then she'll still be in Warner Elect Atlantic, which was the distribution company I was in with Electra. And so I think

00:43:56.790 - 00:44:08.469

Jack called Electra and said, hey, come on, man, this kid's working really hard. Give her her master's back. I'll put her out in discovery she'll still be in and, you know, she'll be off your hands and you'll make a little money because you're not gonna have

00:44:08.479 - 00:44:22.919

anything sitting there in the vault. That's what I assume happened because the next phone call I got was they'll buy it for 50,000. And so, and the stuff I turned into you, there's a copy of that check somewhere. I made a xerox copy of it before

00:44:22.929 - 00:44:39.500

I sent it to a lecture. So yay, we won, we got the master's back and then I had the party and people came from all over the world. People came and my band, my friends, my musician friends, John Bound and Chris, I think maybe Jim Cock,

00:44:39.510 - 00:45:03.389

but we all played um songs from Angels and there was food and cake and it was at a beautiful theater in Dallas. And um so that happened. That's a heck of a story. Yeah. Um So at that time, you were still in Dallas and then you

00:45:03.399 - 00:45:27.429

relocated to Austin. Um Why did you move there? That's a good question too. So I had no place to really live in Dallas. I mean, except with friends and somehow maybe Kevin suggested I start songwriting with other people just to be moving forward. Oh, actually discovery,

00:45:27.439 - 00:45:38.969

I think, did they said come back to Santa Monica and, and just write and keep writing and, you know, the necessary angels had come out and I was touring and doing all stuff So I ended up getting a little apartment with a wonderful guy named Tom

00:45:38.979 - 00:46:00.110

Ford in uh Santa Monica. And I was going around and writing with David Betto and Philip Parlapiano and all kinds of Marvin and um great songwriters that live in L A. And uh so what was the question? I'm tired of listening. Why did you? OK. So

00:46:00.120 - 00:46:15.070

I was living in Santa Monica in this, in this apartment and having a great time. And at the same time, I was thinking I need to find a place to live. And I felt like, again, I felt like I let Dallas down. I felt like, you

00:46:15.080 - 00:46:31.439

know, I think part of it was that, um, it sounds so silly, but I'm just gonna say it because it's true. But, you know, Edie Brill, who I didn't really know, I mean, I met her and she's amazing, amazing person, loving person. You know, she had

00:46:31.449 - 00:46:47.469

this meteor meteoric ex, you know, experience where she did Saturday Night live and then she was marrying Paul Simon and, you know, the New Bohemians were out with Bob Dylan and all, I mean, it was really amazing. And so I felt like she was the queen

00:46:47.479 - 00:47:04.850

of Dallas and I was the princess and I, as the princess had tarnished that role somehow, like I, I hadn't gone as far as Edie had. So I wasn't quite as good. This is my own thing. But it's pretty true too because she's pretty amazing. So,

00:47:04.860 - 00:47:17.229

um, I, I started looking about where I wanted to live and I didn't want to move back to Houston because I didn't really have any friends here left. They'd all left and everybody, and whenever I was out on tour, people would say, oh, you're from Texas.

00:47:17.239 - 00:47:29.300

Do you live in Austin? And I would say no, I live in Dallas and they'd say, oh, well, you seem like Austin. So I thought, well, maybe I should get to know Austin better. And I came to Austin and I realized, oh, this is such a

00:47:29.310 - 00:47:42.379

spiritual place. It's a healing place and it's, it's about Children and families and nature. I loved it and I found a place in Austin and I moved to Austin. So I was living half the time in Austin and half the time in Santa Monica, going back

00:47:42.389 - 00:47:59.260

and forth. And that's how I moved to Austin. Um was uh moving to Austin. Was it helpful for your career? Huh? Well, there had been a little talk for a tiny bit about when I was doing stuff with VH1 in New York about moving to New

00:47:59.270 - 00:48:16.679

York to be a regular on VH1. Um And I seem to recall that my manager said, well, but everybody ass associate associates you with Texas, you should stay in Texas. And I was like, OK. Um and so moving to Austin was really interesting in that. Um

00:48:17.929 - 00:48:35.070

I had friends and I had lots of musician friends in Dallas. But when I moved to Austin, it became, I wanna say more organic or more earthy or more, I don't know. Uh It seemed like everywhere I went in Austin, everybody knew everybody and it was

00:48:35.080 - 00:48:51.520

a different feeling. I'm not sure what the difference is. Maybe because there's a major river running through the city and it, it brings a different life source or energy. I don't know. But like I would go out, I would go, I remember when I first moved

00:48:51.530 - 00:49:05.510

to Austin, I was going to Los, which was a really sweet, uh, two sisters that owned this Mexican restaurant. And I walked in and Ann Richards, Governor Ann Richards was in there and I walked by her table and she said, hi, Sarah. And I was like,

00:49:05.649 - 00:49:20.750

hi, Governor Richards. And then I walked towards the back and there was Charlie Sexton and he said, hey, welcome to Austin. And I was like, thank you. And that's how Austin felt to me. It felt just really homey like everybody. There was no, I'm here and

00:49:20.760 - 00:49:34.800

you're here and you, it was like, everybody was right here. It was so equal and lovely and you could share instruments with people. I mean, I'm not saying you couldn't do that in Dallas, but I don't know. So Austin suddenly I started writing a lot and,

00:49:35.429 - 00:49:48.500

uh, I was traveling a lot. I was gone all the time, but I would come back and, uh, and there would be this foundation for me and then I started working a lot with Mark Haman and Bradley Copp. And that's where I met Tommy Taylor from

00:49:48.510 - 00:50:04.350

Chris, um, Christopher Cross and II, I went out on Eric Johnson tour and I, I don't know, just lots of things were happening and, um, the tour probably happened earlier now, I think about it. But yes, it was good for me to move to Austin. It,

00:50:04.360 - 00:50:22.449

it, I think any time you have a shift in any part of your life, you're opening more doors. So, yes. So while you were there, you um formed the band, Domestic Science Club. Can you talk a little bit about that? Um Yes. So Domestic Science Club

00:50:22.459 - 00:50:43.320

actually happened right before I moved to a, I think, yes, because my friend Robin Macy was the founder of the Dixie Chicks and the Dixie Chicks had a falling out and Robin was on the outside of it and it was really hard. It was cruel and

00:50:43.330 - 00:50:57.570

it was hard. And I invited Robin to come sing with me at a Christmas show at Port David's pub in Dallas. And she said, oh, I'd love to, can I bring my friend Patty Mitchell leg? And I was like, sure. So I think we got together

00:50:57.580 - 00:51:10.250

and rehearsed and it was three part harmony and we sang at the club and it was pretty good and it was fun to be with two other women and singing these three part harmony things. And so we decided to have a band and we came, well,

00:51:10.260 - 00:51:24.110

Robin came up with Domestic Science Club because there actually used to be domestic science clubs in the thirties, forties, fifties where women would share information about how to cook and clean and take care of your family. Um And you could actually get a domestic science degree

00:51:24.120 - 00:51:40.050

in college. Those were the first degrees women could get. So she thought that'd be a cool name and it was a cool name. So uh when Necessary Angels came out Domestic Science Club, went on tour with me. So I would get into Domestic Science Club and

00:51:40.060 - 00:51:51.149

we would open the show and then I would go backstage and I would change clothes and I would come out as me even though I had just been me anyway, but that was pretty fun and, and I used the same band. So the guys playing with

00:51:51.159 - 00:52:06.360

me and Robin and Patty Chris and John were also playing with me. So it worked out great. So we were all in the same band for 8000 years together and we put out two albums. Most people know the first album, but the second album we put

00:52:06.370 - 00:52:29.570

out and they were both, excuse me. The first one was distributed for anybody that wants to know through crystal clear sound. Um Sam Paula's company and then the second one was distributed through Discovery they paid for the second one, so they own the second one. So

00:52:29.580 - 00:52:47.530

you kind of touched on this before about, um, meeting, uh, I've never forgotten his name but, um, kind of the second person that you met that was. Yes. And, um, that he would kind of help you a little bit with performance. Now, I have seen you

00:52:47.540 - 00:53:04.580

live and you do really like to meld, like, storytelling, humor and music together. Was that something that you developed right after him or was that something that's kind of, when do you feel like you kind of came into your own? That's a good question. Uh You

00:53:04.590 - 00:53:24.879

know, when I was a child and we would go up to the Ozarks, my cousins and I, we would write plays and put on musicals and for all the other, the older family members. And I remember that was always really fun because there was a lot

00:53:24.889 - 00:53:38.060

of we'd do jokes and stories and then a song and then so it was like, it was like a variety chef. And when I started performing, I was very, very shy on stage. I would close my eyes and play my guitar and sing my songs and

00:53:38.070 - 00:53:50.729

just go to the next song and I would look at my song list and I would make sure I was going down the list. I didn't, I didn't know. Um And then I would go in the summers and play with my grandparents, my dad's parents, uh

00:53:51.429 - 00:54:06.370

because both of them are musicians and my grandma played piano, my grandpa played saxophone and I would play guitar. And so I picked up a lot of jazz stylings from them. So that started shifting something for me. And then, you know, I met Miss Bonner and

00:54:06.379 - 00:54:24.719

I started doing music therapy in essence, very simple music therapy. And then I met Carl Finch and he was very animated on stage up. I, I think what happened was when I got to high school and I met Gretchen Phillips, Julie Campbell and Julie Pra and

00:54:24.729 - 00:54:40.850

we were the folk group. Uh I remember Gretchen having this ease on stage. Julie Campbell was pretty shy, I believe. And I think Julie Prejean was pretty shy and then I was in between Gretchen and them, but Gretchen had this way of commanding an audience right

00:54:40.860 - 00:54:56.290

away and she still does. Um And so I was, I was watching her but I wasn't really using that yet. I, I, when I would go play a geek by myself, I would just do my music. And then when I, then when I met Carl and

00:54:56.300 - 00:55:16.139

I saw what Carl was like on stage, I think it certainly, if I was performing with Carl, we would have a little banter and, but it was really, I think me playing night after night at club data and I would look out and there'd be 13

00:55:16.149 - 00:55:26.580

guys or whatever, you know, and the guys were just sitting there all moony faced, you know, drinking their drink and, I mean, I don't mean, like 13 guys together, like a guy at a table, a guy at a table. It was pretty cute and I would

00:55:26.590 - 00:55:38.379

be singing to them and I, I started talking to them. I wasn't being funny yet. I was just, I would ii, I don't know, they seemed lonely and I would start talking to them and then they would respond, they would laugh or they would, they would

00:55:38.389 - 00:55:54.820

go, ah, you know, whatever they would do. And that kind of that. And some of the experiences I had in college, like with the motorcycle guys where I had to say something to them. These, just, these little things started coming together and being in arts for

00:55:54.830 - 00:56:08.780

people. Hold on. I know it sounds like a lot of information. But, uh, in Dallas, I joined this group called Archer People and they continued that musical therapy journey for me because I was working in burn units and with, um, the first cases of AIDS in

00:56:08.790 - 00:56:24.939

the eighties, um, pediatrics. Um, um, oh, my gosh. Um, people with aphagia stroke patients, um, people with comas and, and nobody taught me how to do music therapy. I was told, do what you do and go in and figure out a program and we'll pitch you.

00:56:24.949 - 00:56:38.649

And so I was driving all over DFW doing this and there's an intimacy to music therapy. That is not like anything else. It's, you know, sometimes I'm seeing someone and they're dying and there's other people in the room and you're comforting those people while you're focused

00:56:38.659 - 00:56:51.399

on this person who's passing or you're with a pre in a prenatal unit and you, you can't touch them but you can hold your hand over them and they can feel that energy and you're just humming tones and they shift their head and they look at

00:56:51.409 - 00:57:09.239

you and it's just like a miracle. So all these things were kind of coming together and then I just, something happened where I made somebody laugh. And once I felt that like that was the hook for me like, oh, that feels really good. I started drawing

00:57:09.250 - 00:57:21.489

little tidbits out and then I would throw more out and then people liked laughing and then I would start telling stories about the songs. And so I was doing all this and then I got on a lecture and I even had people tell me, you know,

00:57:21.500 - 00:57:40.850

could you talk less and sing more? Because by then I was talking, singing, talking, singing, talking. And um I went on tour with Billy Bragg. That was my first big tour with Electra. And suddenly he, he between Carl and Music therapy and Miss Bonner and, and

00:57:40.860 - 00:57:54.389

Gretchen Phillips. And just all these little segues in between Billy Bragg was like, get out of the way, you know, let me tell you a story. You want to know his story. He would be on stage. He would, he would talk for 10 or 15 minutes

00:57:54.459 - 00:58:05.620

and then they do three or four or five songs or whatever. But he, nobody ever told him to shut up. People were going crazy or people were cheering or, you know, and he would talk about politics. He would talk about hard stuff like he was fearless

00:58:05.729 - 00:58:18.790

and he was funny and he was, and he's very handsome and he's, you know, he has a voice that you either like or you don't. But he's a great songwriter and I was backstage every night. I was just like, how is he doing? That is amazing.

00:58:19.000 - 00:58:33.239

Like he made me fearless watching Billy Bragg made me fearless. It made me realize I need to just be me and who gives a rat's ass what Amy thinks. And so because of him, I started talking more and which of course did make some people happy

00:58:33.250 - 00:58:47.840

but the audiences it was, you know, a joy. It was total joy because all of a sudden, not only was I realizing that my music affects people in a positive way because it makes them feel something or it makes them think about something he brought in

00:58:47.850 - 00:59:01.290

the thinking aspect. I had this feeling thing sort of sort of going on and a little bit of this humor. But he made me realize there is power, there's power in, you don't hide your power you know, if you're gonna make people feel and think, make

00:59:01.300 - 00:59:15.439

a, make it big. If you screw up, you get screw up big. And I was like, wow, and, you know, that changed my whole life. Then I was like, I wanna be like, Billy Bragg. I, you know, I wanna be Sarah Hickman. How do I be

00:59:15.449 - 00:59:34.830

more of Sarah Hickman? Um And I wanted to say really quickly thank you because I've never really had a reason or a thought a moment to sit and kind of process this and put it all together. And for me, it's just, it's, it's a, it's an

00:59:34.840 - 00:59:49.770

honor to get to sit here and put these pieces together and go. Oh, yeah. Ok. That makes sense. It's a little map. So thanks for giving me a map. Um Kind of in a different kind of question, but you just talked about touring. So what are

00:59:49.780 - 01:00:01.550

some of your favorite places to perform across the state? We just keep it to 10. That's awesome. Yeah. No, that's awesome. No, no, no, no, no, no, that's great. Um Because that's a perfect segue because in my mind when I was talking about being fearless, I

01:00:01.560 - 01:00:13.179

was thinking of Caravan of Dreams, you know, club data to me was my playground. It was where I could make mistakes. And, you know, poor Davids was more of like you had to be a little more polished and you had to be a really good songwriter

01:00:13.189 - 01:00:31.419

because that's where, you know, the guy Clarks and the towns bands, aunts and people would play and you, it was a listening room. Well, it's a bar but most part people will go listen. Um, but Caravan of Dreams was the Holy Grail. I mean that club

01:00:31.429 - 01:00:46.050

in Fort Worth that, that was for me getting to be Carol Burnett and getting to be John Denver and getting to be all my childhood heroes in one place because a they respected their artists back. The stage was huge and it was kind of like, I

01:00:46.060 - 01:00:59.389

think it was like a sort of a half circle maybe. I'm not sure. But backstage, it was two story green room downstairs. You had full lights and mirrors and a shower and da da da and you were upstairs and they had food spread like like you

01:00:59.399 - 01:01:11.810

were the queen of Egypt had shown up. It was just lovely and all the drinks you could want, you could call down. Um We need some whiskey showers or whatever and they'd bring them up, no questions asked. And so you felt really happy and relaxed and

01:01:11.820 - 01:01:27.320

ready and then you walked out on stage and, and I don't, I wanna say it was a 600 seat place maybe. But oh my gosh, suddenly I had lines around the block like there was, it was crazy. It would be sold out and people would be,

01:01:27.330 - 01:01:37.840

you know, trying to buy each other's tickets. To get in and, and I would come out and stay and this is, people could still smoke back then too. So there'd be smoke because like, you know, it was, you'd come out and it was like, to me,

01:01:37.850 - 01:01:51.760

I'd made it to me. Carrie Dreams was like heaven. I never had a shitty show. You can say shitty. Oh, yeah, I'm not on TV. Sorry. See, they trained me really well. Whoops. Um Yeah, II I never had a bad show at the Caravan Dreams. In

01:01:51.770 - 01:02:06.939

fact, all, all my favorite, not all my favorite memories, but some of my favorite memories are definitely caravan dreams. It was AAA beautiful space. The sound was incredible. Um And that so many of the people I know now that were fans that became friends over the

01:02:06.949 - 01:02:22.429

years, they would come to every Caravan and Dream show. In fact, one show I had there lasted over four hours because there was huge, huge, huge hailstorm and we couldn't leave and it was right over downtown Fort Worth and it was demolishing buildings. It was terrible,

01:02:22.439 - 01:02:34.219

it was a big hurricane and hell. So I just kept going. And um when I got outside, my van was just the whole windshield had just collapsed in from here. It was all dense and, and I had to drive to Austin the next day, but I

01:02:34.229 - 01:02:49.959

just did it anyway. So Caravan Dreams, um the monkey duck in Houston, you know, for my playground. At club data, which was, uh, uh, I also have to say very art savvy and, and about our performances, they had the great Reverend Bob there and they, you

01:02:49.969 - 01:03:03.560

know, people were trying weird, you could do anything there. You could wrap yourself in toilet paper and sing a whole set and nobody would think that was weird at club do. Um, but in Houston, I first I didn't, I didn't play Anderson Fair for a long,

01:03:03.570 - 01:03:17.750

long, long, long time. I played at a place called Munchies and then I played at Mucky Duck. And the Mucky Duck was my Caravan of James for Houston. I mean, rusty and trees. So the owners are like my brother and sister. I love them so much

01:03:17.760 - 01:03:35.209

and they went, they've gone through the last 20 years with me, hold my hand, they're just, they cheer me on and they lift me up and they were beautiful people. Um, and I could do whatever I wanted on their stage. You know, like if I was

01:03:35.219 - 01:03:45.489

playing the Bluebird in Nashville, I knew what I was supposed to do at the Bluebird in Nashville, which was just sing. I could tell stories. But you're usually in the round with someone else. So, you know, you, you're, you're aware of what kind of club you're

01:03:45.500 - 01:03:59.719

in and Monkey Duck. It was like caravan where I could just be me. I could tell stories. I could tell jokes. I could do whatever I want. To do and, and it was fine. And, um, yeah, I'm trying to think if there's some place else special,

01:03:59.729 - 01:04:25.899

uh, in Texas that I wanna talk about. Houston, Dallas, Austin. Oh, Austin. So Cactus caf cactus Cafe for me was also a jewel. It's the jewel. It, it's a small, small listening room on the University of Texas campus. And, uh, that's where I made my boyfriend

01:04:25.909 - 01:04:42.459

cry, uh, when I was getting signed to lecture and I think that helped seal the deal actually, because I sang a song to him and looked only at him and he got all weepy and it was pretty awesome. But I, a Cactus Cafe also has impeccable

01:04:42.469 - 01:05:06.560

sound and has very loving audiences. I mean, they are there to enjoy the ride with you. So those would be my favorite places in Texas. Um, I'm gonna change tracks here. Um, you, I don't, you can't tell exactly how many albums where I don't know either.

01:05:06.590 - 01:05:24.419

I really don't, I hope you find out because I have no idea. We're devoted to children's music. Oh, we know that. Um, but what was the impetus behind writing and releasing children's music? Ok. Um, well, I've been making albums and then I veered off with Domestic

01:05:24.429 - 01:05:49.610

Science Club. I did that. I was still making my music. Um, and I got pregnant and 19 95 the fall of 1995 um, unexpectedly and I loved it, you know, I mean, I was shocked at first because it wasn't on my game plan. Uh Or I

01:05:49.620 - 01:06:06.620

never had a vision of having Children or being married or anything like that. Um And the very first time I felt Lily move inside me, I was at club data and I, I felt this butterfly thing and I was like, I'm on stage and I have

01:06:06.629 - 01:06:21.540

a baby. Oh my gosh, this is a, I had the drummer. Nobody could feel anything. I was like, can you feel anything? And they're like, no, I was like, oh my gosh, I can feel it. It's so weird. Um, so I had Lily in 1996 August

01:06:21.550 - 01:06:34.629

15, 1996. And I started, of course, I had been singing, I've been performing the whole time while she was in me and it was great. And when she came out, I was still singing to her and you could tell which songs she recognized. I mean, even

01:06:34.639 - 01:06:52.260

just born, it was amazing. And, uh, I was always singing to her and somebody, uh, a mom, I knew a couple of moms I knew said, oh, I wish I could sing for my Children. And I said, oh, you can. And they're like, no, we, we're

01:06:52.270 - 01:07:06.010

terrible singers and they'll just push us away or whatever they said. And I said, well, ok, so by then I had been making little recordings of myself to play in the car and I would sing harmony to myself to Lily and I started thinking, oh, I

01:07:06.020 - 01:07:22.199

should just make a record for my friends. So I went in the studio and I made this album called Newborn. Um and that was kind of it. All of a sudden, I had a children's career going. The cool thing about newborn was there was a fan

01:07:22.209 - 01:07:35.919

that approached me at a show one night and said, I want to give you some money for a project. So I, I said, well, I wanna do this. Children's CD. And so they put money into that children's CD. And then as a way to pay her

01:07:35.929 - 01:07:54.870

back, she didn't want the money back. Uh Half of the proceeds went to the Mountain project in Washington DC which supports lesbians with breast cancer. And then the other bulk of the money went to the Hill Country Youth Ranch, which I'd gone out and, and done

01:07:54.879 - 01:08:15.610

some volunteering for which helps um abused and neglected foster kids have a safe haven. So I think newborn raised $50,000 or a little more for the Hill country youth ranch. And uh probably about the same or a little less for a mountain. And, and then that,

01:08:15.899 - 01:08:29.740

that really hooked me on, wow, I can use my music to make money for other people. I mean, I've been doing projects where, you know, you people say, well, you played a benefit concert and stuff like that but to, to make my records help other people

01:08:29.750 - 01:08:45.759

was really profound to me. I've done it with angels too because, no, I didn't. Uh, I did on spiritual place that was after my Children. Yeah. So newborn was really an awakening to me that, oh, whatever I'm making whatever format it's on, let's put some of

01:08:45.770 - 01:09:02.209

that money into a nonprofit. I don't know. I don't know why. But I always felt called to do things for other people and I might be because both of my grandmothers worked in, uh, you know, as volunteers. I don't know. But I think part of my

01:09:02.220 - 01:09:19.540

loneliness as a child, you know, uh doing nonprofit or supporting people in their causes, it, it made me less lonely because it made me feel connected like I'm helping in some way. So when I attained a modicum of power in a sense or money, it, it

01:09:19.549 - 01:09:36.740

was like, oh, here I can use this to help you. Let me help you. So, um, yes. Uh you know, I, I, when I first got involved with that first, um psychiatric ward with the teenagers, that was, of course, the first taste of it. But then

01:09:36.750 - 01:09:51.449

when I started getting engaged with arts for people in Dallas and working with all those different groups, doing music and, and art therapy. And I could see, I could see how people's lives are changing right in front of me in, in, at least that moment. And,

01:09:51.458 - 01:10:02.229

you know, many, many years later, I, I like 10 years after arts for people, I had a woman come to me after a show, she sent a note back and asked if I could meet her. And I said, sure. And she said you won't remember me.

01:10:02.240 - 01:10:14.740

But you came to a psych unit in Dallas, an adult psych unit. And you came in and you sang songs and you sang, uh you worked with me for a little while and you saved my life because I went into that unit and I wanted to

01:10:14.750 - 01:10:30.439

kill myself. I didn't have a purpose. I didn't know. But you said something to me that I've never forgotten and she said whatever it was. And you know, those, those were my grammies. To me, those, those moments, you can't, I can't, you can't give me anything

01:10:30.450 - 01:10:49.580

that's better than those moments because then you realize that little dream you had as a girl that, you know, to, to share something and it's musical and it makes somebody have hope. Wow. You know, you just can't buy that. You can't, you can't, it's so amazing.

01:10:49.589 - 01:11:05.729

Anyway. So, um after arts for people and I moved to, I was living in Dallas and I got signed. Oh, yeah. So I would, I would be out on tour and I would go find the homeless people. I started hanging out with homeless people and I

01:11:05.740 - 01:11:18.399

would bring food. I remember I was doing this vh1 special called In Your Face and I was the host and it was my birthday and we spent the whole day going around New York City and, and I had come up with this idea that we would

01:11:18.410 - 01:11:30.040

talk to people and I would run down the street with a microphone and go uh where can I find biscuits and gravy? And they would go biscuits and gravy. This is New York. What do you think we would thing? You know, whatever. I didn't know what

01:11:30.049 - 01:11:40.609

people were gonna say. I didn't know. And you know, people weren't doing this. This wasn't uh I think David Letterman was just coming out. So I probably got the idea from him. But so I was running around at the end of the day and it was

01:11:40.620 - 01:11:54.279

a very, very cold long day, March 1st. Uh We went down in the subways to finish the shoot and there was all these homeless people and they're trying to stay warm and they vh1 had made me a birthday cake and they brought the cake and they

01:11:54.290 - 01:12:07.859

were seeing me happy birthday to the film crew and the pr people or whatever. And I took the cake and I walked over and I sat down with the homeless people and I, I started slicing it up and giving it to them. And somebody came over

01:12:07.870 - 01:12:20.509

and said, you know, we, we can't film. I was like, oh no, I don't want, I have, I don't want you to film this. This is time. This is our time thank you for the cake. But, you know, and I think they were shocked that, that

01:12:20.520 - 01:12:34.169

I would go sit with these people because, you know, anyway, that, that really, you know, finding people after showing and taking money from CD sales and just going and distributing it or really bringing people food and clothing was the biggest thing for me because that's what

01:12:34.180 - 01:12:47.350

I could do right there and people really needed socks or whatever they needed. And then I got involved with, um, the Texas Abolition Network and I started speaking out about the death penalty and I, I was very engaged with the Amnesty International. I joined in, in

01:12:47.359 - 01:13:02.120

college. And that's how I got involved with speaking out about Thomas Sutherland and that came into my music on shortstop and, you know, and, and so I was doing stuff with the homeless. I was involved with speaking out about the death penalty, which was not anything

01:13:02.129 - 01:13:16.250

anybody ever wanted to hear about. So that's why I put it into a song because I could talk about it in the song. And then I was at a radio station in Nashville. This is when I was on tour for short stop. So this would have

01:13:16.259 - 01:13:32.109

been 1990 1991. I went in this radio station and they asked, and every station at that point I, I was singing, I couldn't help myself. That was the big single. And for some reason in Nashville, you go on and you'd talk Gobby g, you'd sing the

01:13:32.120 - 01:13:41.399

song, you'd maybe talk a little more and you were done. But they asked me to sing another song from the album. And I was like, oh, wow. And they're like, singing the one that you like the most. Although they said it like this, the one you

01:13:41.410 - 01:13:55.759

like the most because they all had that radio voice and they all believe that. And I was like, ok, and I wanted to sing if we send our hearts over now, which talks about Thomas Sutherland, but it starts out talking about me being raped. Um It's,

01:13:55.770 - 01:14:07.029

you don't hear that in the song. What you hear is some is I'm being attacked, it's in first person. And the second verse is about the person that attacked me is now in jail. And the third verse is about Thomas of the land because he's a

01:14:07.040 - 01:14:21.720

universal victim. So you got personal victim, the second victim and third victim. So I finished the song. It's a, it's a song I usually have the audience sing along on. I never really talked about it on stage except about Thomas Sutherland. And I finished the song

01:14:21.729 - 01:14:38.220

and the DJ said, oh, what, what, what was that song about? And I had never said this and live on the air. I said, well, it's a song about victimization and I, I was a victim of rape and he said something like we have to go

01:14:38.229 - 01:14:48.060

to a commercial break and they asked me to get up and leave and they walked me out and I, I had to go sit in the limo and they took me away. They did not want me to talk about that. They did not want me to

01:14:48.069 - 01:15:02.649

ruin their day. And I, I felt so ashamed, like, like I'd done something wrong and I knew it. I knew, I knew when I was picking that song in the back of my head, what if they ask me? And I thought I have to say it,

01:15:02.660 - 01:15:15.580

I have to and not just, you know, not just for me, but why can't I talk about rape? Why can't we talk about it? It's a terrible thing and it should be talked about. And, you know, I just ended up so I didn't talk about for

01:15:15.589 - 01:15:29.330

a long time after that. So there's that element and I started working with women in domestic violence situations. I started going to women's shelters. I started trying to help there because I thought, wow, people shut you down for that. You know, they're getting shut down all

01:15:29.339 - 01:15:46.709

the time. Of course. And then I started speaking out about abortion rights, uh with Meryl and with the Pro Choice Group. Um, Janie and, um, Dallas, we started doing pro-choice concerts in the park and, and then, you know, I just, it just seemed like there was,

01:15:46.720 - 01:15:58.250

you know, I, I got to work with, um, this is how I met Molly Ivans because Molly Ivans and I were working uh speaking at an event about the death penalty and they brought in, you'll have to look her up. I can't think of her name,

01:15:58.259 - 01:16:12.970

but it's a little German woman and her, her husband was put to death for Glens baby or somebody and he, he was innocent. He didn't do it. But so here was this little 90 year old woman who came up and she was the lead speaker. So

01:16:12.979 - 01:16:24.490

I performed in Molly. I spoke in this woman's book and it was her birthday and we were all like crying li excuse me listening to her story. Uh It just seemed like everywhere I turned, I could do music, but I was getting to either hear a

01:16:24.500 - 01:16:38.370

new message that was important or talk about a message to people that didn't know about it. So then I got involved in Romania and I went to work with the orphans there and, and you know, my fans, oh my gosh, they did. I mean again, I

01:16:38.379 - 01:16:49.040

had to xerox letters. I'm going to Romania, please. I need socks. I need shoes, I need coffee, I need, you know, and I, and I went to Lufthansa and I said, can you please help me ship this stuff over? I don't have the money. Lufthansa was

01:16:49.049 - 01:17:01.660

like, sure. I mean, I, I sing a song for Michael's MJ designs in exchange for art supplies, you know, and I would just take it over and I would go around to these, uh, these orphanages that were horrible and I would make art with kids and

01:17:01.669 - 01:17:12.859

I would bring them stuff, toys and I would bring them socks and I would use cigarettes to, you know, bribe my way down the street or whatever I had to do to get past the guard with a machine gun. And, you know, it just seemed like

01:17:13.640 - 01:17:29.560

the, the more engaged I got with social justice, the more I loved it and the more I, I wanted audiences and my music and social justice to be one thing. And I, you know, II, I would assume a big part of that was having Miss Bonner

01:17:29.569 - 01:17:44.399

plant that seed and then have seeing Billy Bragg talk about, you know, what was happening around the world. But I don't know. And then, then when I went to Austin, there was just so much to do, you know, and I got involved with how the homeless

01:17:44.410 - 01:17:58.529

and I, you know, gave a guitar for an auction for them and we get people to sign guitars that I knew that were famous. And I would, I would sing at their memorial service every November to, to, we would read the names of those that were

01:17:58.540 - 01:18:14.270

homeless that died on the streets that year. And, and I have this song called Joy that I wrote based on a homeless woman I knew who passed away on the streets and, you know, I, I made a video for Joy and uh on my own dime

01:18:14.279 - 01:18:32.149

because Electra didn't want to make one about it. And uh so I learned how to direct a film and, and write out a storyboard and make edits and, you know, and that one first place in the USA film festival because uh because it was a social

01:18:32.160 - 01:18:44.189

justice thing and, and then uh it got played on, I don't know if it was the Playboy channel or it got played on VH1 or it got played. Anyway, it was amazing. It still got played and, and, and, and what somebody listening to this may or

01:18:44.200 - 01:18:55.129

may not understand is again, there was no social network like there is now this is all stuff that you're doing it because you believe in it and you're gonna worry about how to make it work after you do it and, and you're kind of doing it

01:18:55.140 - 01:19:10.189

as you're going and figuring out the steps and then trying to find people to help you do what you need to do because it hasn't been invented yet. Almost. It's like uh there was no Google, I couldn't ask Siri anything anyway. So then I just kept,

01:19:10.200 - 01:19:25.529

then I got involved with the S PC A and I wrote them a song called Skin Leather. Uh some Skin leather and fur, skin feathers, skin feathers and fur to sing it through S PC A S PC A fur ball. Anyway, you name it. I've probably

01:19:25.540 - 01:19:37.100

done it and I loved it and I loved every minute of it. And I hope that I, you know, sometimes I would, once I had Children, I would take my daughters out to house the homeless or different protests. We, my youngest daughter and I just marched

01:19:37.109 - 01:19:56.810

in the women's march after Trump became that person that he has always been. Uh, anyway, we marched in the women's march together and it was just dynamite to see my kids engaging in social justice in their own way too. Another kind of interesting thing that I

01:19:56.819 - 01:20:12.290

read about you was that you've worked on a variety of commercial campaigns? Yes. What does that work like? You know, um, that work is really fun and it's terrifying because you never know what the client, if the client's gonna be there if, uh, uh, so we're

01:20:12.299 - 01:20:28.229

talking about commercial jingles, right? So, uh, uh, the first one I did, I didn't get the ad spot, but I got an audition to go for a bored and light milk commercial. It was, and they took that famous song. I don't know the name of it,

01:20:28.240 - 01:20:38.419

but I had to go introducing bored and light, every light, every bite tastes, right? Da da da da for your health and fitness needs. And I had to sing it faster and faster and I had to sing it in a certain key. That was a little

01:20:38.430 - 01:20:51.620

high for me and, you know, and I didn't, I didn't know I, I was at this big ad agency in, in, uh, Dallas Richards Group and it was really scary because it was different. You know, there's, you're under a time constraint and people are staring at

01:20:51.629 - 01:21:04.729

you and it's not like making an album where it's kind of, you're doing your thing. Um, so I didn't get that but I, I was like, hm, that was kind of interesting. Then I got a little Coke spot and I got a little Fannie Mae spot

01:21:04.740 - 01:21:18.600

and then I got a spot for Clark Clark Wilson Homes in Austin. And this was also a time where I realized, hm, because they were negotiating with me about how much they were gonna pay me to sing this spot. And I was also gonna be in

01:21:18.609 - 01:21:35.819

the spot as this pretty girl sitting on top of a gazebo singing about buying Clarkson home. And I said, you know, I'll do this spot if you'll match what you're paying me and give it to house the homeless. And, but we were in a big board

01:21:35.830 - 01:21:46.109

meeting with a whole bunch of people and Clark Wilson himself or who the representative was, was there. And he was like, well, II, I care about the homeless of, of course, I will, you know, and then I realize, oh, this is kind of fun. I put

01:21:46.120 - 01:21:55.709

him on the spot. Of course, he's gonna say, yes, you know, and then it's like it's a little game and it's fun anyway. So he matched what he paid me and gave it to the house of the homeless, which is great. But then I, I did,

01:21:55.720 - 01:22:13.529

uh, uh, I did a, a Walmart ad and, and that started a whole different ball wax because generally when you do a jingle, you go in and you do a demo and you might get 100 100 and $50 just to sing and then they pitch it

01:22:13.540 - 01:22:29.200

to the client and then the client picks what they like or they listen to different singers and pick the singer. They like whatever they're doing. And, uh, and I got the spot and then I did Walmart for a long time. And then, uh, the ad agency

01:22:29.209 - 01:22:46.009

that did Walmart came and asked if we'd like to have our whole family in the commercial and being on camera is different from singing a spot. Uh, and it would have been a lot of money. It would have probably helped our kids, college friends. Um, and

01:22:46.020 - 01:23:00.939

my husband is very adamantly against Walmart. So, uh, so my husband is anti Walmart and I came home and I said, oh my gosh, we're gonna make so much money. This will help the kids, blah, blah. And he's like, no, and I was like, you're right.

01:23:00.950 - 01:23:12.839

So I went back to the ad agency. I said, no, we can't be in the spot and they're like what nobody ever says. No. And I, I was like, yeah, my husband doesn't approve of Walmart. He thinks what they do is wrong and they're like, wow,

01:23:12.850 - 01:23:26.379

really? You know, pretty cool. Anyway. So, uh, then after Walmart I did, uh, I'm doing other ones too but I have to tell you the big ones because it's gotta be eight hours you're into this. Um, then I did Daisy Sour Cream for eight years and

01:23:26.390 - 01:23:38.370

that was a blast. So you go in and they have a, a tune, they have the words, you sing it. The one thing about the Daisy thing was they had, um, put on a dollop of Daisy and I was like, why don't you just make it

01:23:38.379 - 01:23:48.850

do a doll up? And they're like, ah, which I wish at that point I had said, and I should have rightfully said, hey, I'm a writer now because you get paid to write too. But I didn't think to do it. So, what, whatever. So, I sang

01:23:48.859 - 01:24:00.180

it for eight years. It was ok. Um, and it's really fun. You go in and it can be anywhere from half an hour to an hour and you sing something and then it can play forever and then you get paid every quarter. So sometimes you get

01:24:00.189 - 01:24:10.709

a check for a penny, sometimes you get a check for thousands of dollars and sometimes you get 15, 20 checks for thousands of dollars or hundreds of dollars. You know. So it's exciting. You never, I'm not quite sure how it works, but I don't care. It's

01:24:10.720 - 01:24:28.330

magic money. And, uh, then after Daisy sour cream I've been singing Popeyes for the last eight years and I just finished singing some new segments that will come out in the fall of 2017. That's the year I'm in right now. Although by the time she finishes

01:24:28.390 - 01:24:44.700

interviewing me in maybe 2019, I am very long winded. I know. Go get a coffee, come back. I'll be here anyway, while she's figuring out her question. I'll just tell you. Yes. So when you're watching the Popeye's ad and it's got Annie and she's what? Ok.

01:24:44.709 - 01:25:01.700

And, and you know, Annie's going, mm, I bet you love my fried chicken or whatever she's saying. And you hear that? Mm mm. That's me. And at the love that chicken from Popeye's. Mm. That's me too. So now, you know, go, go ahead looking back on

01:25:01.709 - 01:25:27.950

your musical output. Which albums mean the most to you and why? Mm Wow. I don't really had anybody ask me that question, I don't think. Hm. Um Well, I just had a whole bunch of stuff pop into my head. Uh I guess I'll start with the

01:25:27.959 - 01:25:50.479

first response, which was faithful heart, faithful heart. I just, I think Sonically which is probably not the answer people would expect, but I think that album sounds delicious. Uh Marty Lester was the engineer we did it at a studios in Austin and I worked with Will

01:25:50.490 - 01:26:08.189

Taylor and strings attached. He did beautiful arrangements. All the musicians were exquisite, including John Frin, who I think I left out of the liner notes. So I'm sorry, now you, this is your payback, yay. Um That album just I felt like my voice was in really

01:26:08.200 - 01:26:21.120

good form. I thought Marty really captured it well and I got to do some things on there that mean something just to me and other people that nobody needs to know about. Um I'm really proud of that album and I, I drew the cover and I

01:26:21.129 - 01:26:40.899

had photos taken with Lance, um and Todd Wilson did the photography and just everything about that record to me was full of love and there was some hard times that things were hard, things were happening to musicians on that project and we had to take, we

01:26:40.910 - 01:27:00.689

had to figure out things to do and, and I don't know that was, that was, I love that record. Um Of course, equal equal sc people because that was my first album and it's, you know, I, I'll never understand how anything happened, but I'm grateful that

01:27:00.700 - 01:27:15.979

e Scary People was made. I'm, I'm grateful Ray Mail Cornelius did the artwork. I'm grateful that Howard Thompson liked it. I'm grateful Kevin Womack liked it. I'm grateful for all the musicians who played on it, which are way too many to mention. But Thank you all.

01:27:15.990 - 01:27:35.939

And um and I thought that collection of songs was really, I don't know, it, they don't seem like they match. But as a collection it was, it works like just like a handshake just felt, felt good. And the last song equal scary people. I played all

01:27:35.950 - 01:27:49.620

the instruments on it, did all the vocals and that was the only time I've ever played bass on a recording or, I mean, it's just, it was fun to do all of it. And then I guess I talk about my children's albums because to me, really,

01:27:49.629 - 01:28:07.509

my children's albums define me the the best. II, I guess people would think my adult albums do, but I don't think people list people with Children, listen to my children's albums. But if you'd ever listen to my children's albums, you can hear just the core of

01:28:07.520 - 01:28:22.180

me because I'm just having the best time. I'm very inventive. I'm playful. I'm working one on one with Marty Lester. We are having a great time and um and I get to be all the different parts of me as a whole. And uh, and doing children's

01:28:22.189 - 01:28:33.959

music is music is fun because you don't have to have a reason. You know, you can just make music. I, I sometimes felt like as an adult making music, there needs to be the content needs to kind of mesh together which none of mine ever have.

01:28:34.250 - 01:28:50.899

Um But on children's music, it's just a blast. And I really, I'm grateful that I made the children's albums I did. And lastly, I, I would say thanks to making Domestic Science Club records because I never had two sisters. And I mean, I was grateful to

01:28:50.910 - 01:29:09.439

be in the band with Gretchen Phillips and Julie Campbell and Julie Pre but with Robin Macy and Patty Michele, we were practicing and we were doing really intricate, hard three part harmonies. And we would have a big swing band in the, in the, on the album

01:29:09.450 - 01:29:24.680

and we would have the finest bluegrass players. I mean, Robin knows everybody and just, she would bring in these songs and I don't even know where she'd find them. But she introduced us to a whole new world of music and those albums mean so much to

01:29:24.689 - 01:29:38.089

me because I don't know that I could sing those songs today. I don't know how I did it and I can only credit, credit that Robin and Patty are geniuses and they allowed me into their scope. So I'd say those are the albums. Faith of Heart

01:29:38.500 - 01:29:55.290

equals great people, newborn toddler, Big Kid in my collection of children's music and Domestic Science Club, one and two Domestic Science Club. And the second one is called Three Women in case you want to get those good luck finding them. Um In 2010, you became the

01:29:55.299 - 01:30:09.970

Texas State musician. What did that mean to you? Um Well, I believe they called me and I thought it was a joke. And so I said, ha, very funny. I hung up because I thought it was my mom or so, I didn't know it was, um,

01:30:10.529 - 01:30:26.040

what did it mean to me? Well, to me it was another opportunity to help, you know? Oh, here's another of stage, another format where I can, I will get some recognition but I can use that recognition to give back. Right. It was very exciting. And um

01:30:28.109 - 01:30:44.009

and I'm sure I drove the people that took Texas Commission on the arts crazy because I'm, I don't know, I hope I didn't. But I went into the meeting. Uh I, I, and I asked them, I said, can I, can I use that this platform to

01:30:44.020 - 01:30:53.540

raise awareness and raise money? And they're like, well, sure, I mean, we don't have any money to give you. I was like, no, I don't want any money I have but I just need to make sure that's not gonna mess, get y'all in trouble and they're

01:30:53.549 - 01:31:12.549

like, no, no, no. So um and I would just like to say it's, it's cool because when you become official state musician of Texas or Texas musician, uh it's through the Texas Commission in the arts and it's through uh certain members of the, the legislative body,

01:31:12.560 - 01:31:30.839

the Texas legislators. So it's Republicans and Democrats that are all voting on it as well. And that's cool because they're coming together over musicians. I think deserve this honor, which is great honor. So, um, Willie Nelson was the state musician before me. And so he was

01:31:30.850 - 01:31:44.640

2009 to 2010 and I was going to be 2010 to 2000, 2011. So, the good thing was I had a whole year before I was going to be state musician to get my act together and figure out what I was gonna do. right. So I thought

01:31:44.649 - 01:32:01.080

it would be cool to take my songs because then I didn't have to license or do a whole bunch of rig with other people. Take my songs and have other Texas musicians sing them, make a double disc. So it's 39 songs have that money. Go to

01:32:01.089 - 01:32:15.470

Creative Action, which at the time was called Theater Action Project. So if you look and that's what it says in the album, blah, blah. Anyway, now it's creative action and creative action is an amazing organization that uh goes into schools and does after school programs in

01:32:15.479 - 01:32:31.279

the arts and, and theater and they do peer to peer. Uh So kids are teaching other kids about drugs and, and um domestic violence or you name it, they're working on it and it's a, a just I can't say enough about this program. So I thought

01:32:31.290 - 01:32:50.379

I wanna put my money where my mouth is and raise awareness and money for this group. So at this time, in 2009, I was also thinking it would be cool to put together a family program to go into schools and teach about creativity. So I had

01:32:50.390 - 01:33:07.310

met Jason Mole and Gray Parsons and we became Family Time Rocks and we made an album. I, I went to HEB and asked for a grant which I got. Thank you HEB. And we made a uh Family Time Rocks, made a CD. Uh and it was

01:33:07.319 - 01:33:19.729

a collection of poems and stories and songs in all kinds of different languages. And it came with a workbook. So you could listen to a song and then as a teacher talk about creativity with your class and do these projects based on what you just heard

01:33:19.879 - 01:33:31.839

or if your family at home, you know, the family that creates together, does great together. And then we were doing live performances at the Houston International Festival or we end up, we went up to, we go to Missouri. Uh we went, we were going all over

01:33:31.850 - 01:33:46.410

and playing and it was really fun and two great guys you couldn't ask for two better brothers anyway. So I was doing family time rocks and I was producing this enormous CD. So I was asking of course brave combo and, and uh fishing in America and

01:33:46.419 - 01:34:04.060

Patrice Spike and Ruthie Foster. And you know, uh everybody, I don't know just a lot of people and uh they're all saying yes. And, and their part of the program was they had to record it themselves. And then so I would send pitch them two songs

01:34:04.069 - 01:34:16.240

that I thought would fit their personality, they would pick one, they would record it, they would send it back to me. And then, so I was, I was sending out songs. I had this big board in my office where I had everybody's names and where they

01:34:16.250 - 01:34:29.700

were in the process since the song approved song, recording, song, finished song, you know, and, uh, so I was doing that, I was doing Family Time Rocks and I was working on an album called Absence of Blame, which came out in 2010. And that was an

01:34:29.709 - 01:34:47.649

adult album, uh with Mark Addison, which was great. Thank you, Mark. Um So, uh I had everybody that I had wanted except for Willie Nelson and I went to an event where Willie was. Um and I went up and asked Willie if he would sing this

01:34:47.660 - 01:35:03.160

song and he said, yes. And, uh I was so excited. I turned around and I thought my husband Lance was standing behind me. I turned around and I grabbed him and I kissed him on the mouth. I was like, yes, you know, and it wasn't my

01:35:03.169 - 01:35:16.720

husband, it was Senator Kirk Watson and, and his wife and, and I said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And he's like, oh, Sarah, you met my wife and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm excited. I just got Willie, which, you know, didn't sound

01:35:16.729 - 01:35:34.410

good either but whatever. So, um so Willie sang and there's a whole cool Willie story, but that's another story. Anyway. So, so to me that year was really important. So I got all my ducks in a row and then 2011 came in and uh creative action

01:35:34.419 - 01:35:45.979

worked really hard and we got to Paramount Theater donated and we had a big event at the Paramount to raise money. And Robert E, Ken, all these people that are on the album came out and played. It was very cool. Um And of course, Gretchen Phillips

01:35:45.990 - 01:36:02.549

was on it too, which was really neat because it came full circle that she got to be um a part of the project. And her version of my song is spectacular because she's spectacular. Anyway. So, um I was hoping that this would be a snowball effect.

01:36:02.560 - 01:36:17.740

Ok. Like, so this person in between Willie and I love it that nobody really knows Willie, who I love it. But this person Sarah Hickman started this idea that each Texas musician would come in and have a certain nonprofit that they believed in and they would

01:36:17.750 - 01:36:30.870

use their profile as state musician and, and raise awareness, right? I was so excited. I Billy Gibbons was after me and I, and I talked to his wife and she's like, oh, Billy will want to do that. And I, I was like, oh, well, please tell

01:36:30.879 - 01:36:41.589

him to do something like this. And then, and it hasn't happened. I don't know why I was, I, I was so, I was so certain that that would become the thing, you know? Oh, you're a Texas musician. And is there a nonprofit you're interested? And here's

01:36:41.600 - 01:36:50.910

some things you can do, you know, do it your way. But here's what Sarah did, you know? And then eventually they wouldn't even talk about me. They just, they'd want to do what the person before them did. It would be so cool. So, I don't know

01:36:50.919 - 01:37:07.959

why that didn't take off either. It seems like a really good platform, right? And it would also bring a higher awareness as awareness of state musician because nobody really knows. We have state musician. I mean, it's becoming a little more known, you know, but like I

01:37:07.970 - 01:37:19.180

just found out yesterday, Marsha Ball is gonna be the next state musician. Um, and I was like, oh, that's so cool. But I didn't hear about it, you know, and others we could make it so cool that other states would do it and then they would

01:37:19.189 - 01:37:32.779

have state musicians, right? And then it would be this ongoing win win situation. So, anyway, I tried, yeah, I guess maybe they were trying to make it kind of like the, the state poet and make it. Yes. In fact, the state poet laureate who I met

01:37:32.790 - 01:37:45.580

Carla Morton the day I was at, at the legislative, at the state capital, I'm getting at the state capital. They, you go up on the, and they, a bell and you get a, a certificate, blah, blah. She was there. Of course, the poet laureate the two

01:37:45.589 - 01:38:01.020

D and the 3D artist and then the state musician, she ended up appearing on the family time rock CD reading one of her poems. So, it was again, you know, it's crisscrossing and networking and how much fun is that? Um, I guess do you wanna take

01:38:01.029 - 01:38:22.220

a moment and talk about how the music industry has changed since you began? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna take a sip of water on that one. Hold on one second. Let me calm my throat. Hm. Well, how has it changed? How has the music industry changed? Um,

01:38:26.640 - 01:38:46.069

well, let's see when I started, when I was a little kid. Whipper snappers when I was a kid. Uh, you just worked hard, you just practiced and you worked hard and you wrote your songs and you showed up. So, if I was gonna sing at church,

01:38:46.080 - 01:38:57.169

I would sing at church. If I was gonna sing at school, I was going to sing at school that, you know, and then you just kept your eye on the prize and you, I, there, I didn't know of any way to get to a major label

01:38:57.180 - 01:39:14.450

that just seemed like a pipe dream, but it was in my head all the time. And, um, then I started you know, when I first started recording, uh, the first recording I did was, I think on quarter inch tape, like the whole master for my, for

01:39:14.459 - 01:39:25.600

equal, equal scary people is on quarter inch maybe. And then it was two inch. Um, I'd have to ask Terry Slims out. But there was somebody before Terry Slims and we recorded some stuff on a quarter inch and I know because I gave it to you.

01:39:26.410 - 01:39:38.270

Um, then it became, uh, and two inch has already been around. Uh, so maybe I was in an anomaly and it was a weird thing. I don't know. Uh, so two inch for a long time and then it went to a, a and, and DATs and

01:39:38.279 - 01:39:57.540

then it went, you know, to pro tools and, and garage band and whatever, you know, I mean, can't, whatever. So, uh, so in terms of, um, what medium people used to record on that's changed significantly. I started on cassette player, then buying another cassette player and,

01:39:57.660 - 01:40:14.740

and multitasking myself because I didn't know about four tracks and going to four tracks and then being in real studios with Flying Faders and then pro tools and it's all digital. Um, and in terms of the music business, well, I don't, I don't know how much

01:40:14.750 - 01:40:35.560

it's changed. Uh, it's a contractual business and if you aren't careful with what you sign, you can lose a lot or you can gain a lot or you can be right in the middle. Um, there's slimy people and there's, there's good people and the bad people

01:40:35.569 - 01:40:50.020

are very bad and those people will never go away. And in terms of the music industry, uh, you know, I don't think it's ever had more glitz and glamour than it does now. And it's, there's more talent. I mean, there's always talent, there's always, always been

01:40:50.029 - 01:41:03.149

great music and there's great music we'll never hear because Sally, it wasn't recorded. The difference now is you've got, you know, I mean, when I was growing up, I guess, you know, if you got on this Tonight show, that was a big deal. That was as

01:41:03.160 - 01:41:19.049

high as you could get, right? Um And then along came MTV and VH1 and, and radio, you know, first radio or video killed the radio star as they say, then after that, now it's just, you know, you, you had a, you had a single focus, you

01:41:19.060 - 01:41:35.020

get a label, get on the Tonight Show, play Carnegie Hall, whatever those kind of things are. Now, it's like there's just so much all the time information coming and going and people are making music on American Idol and people are online and uploading youtube videos of

01:41:35.029 - 01:41:48.879

themselves. They're doing Snapchats, they're doing, you know, it's just everywhere and it's, it's almost, uh for me it's almost too much, I'm not really sure where to look or what to listen to. So, uh I'm sure, you know, and it's an exciting time because that's what

01:41:48.890 - 01:42:02.339

people know. Right now, the music industry is always what it is right when it's happening. So, for me, it was what it was, you know, for my friend Adam Stewart, who's doing really well right now and I guess has a label looking at him, it's an

01:42:02.350 - 01:42:13.080

exciting time because he has a label looking at him. So it doesn't really matter if the label, the industry has changed or not. It is what it is, you know, and, and you have to be with what it is while it's happening to be a part

01:42:13.089 - 01:42:30.950

of it. And so there's more media sensations. You could be everywhere at once. Whereas you only had a few opportunities when I was growing up now, you could be everywhere. And if you're huge, like Adele, I mean, the fact that she sold more records than anyone

01:42:30.959 - 01:42:45.180

and her song hadn't even come out yet, that would never have happened when I was growing up. That would never have happened for Lightning Hopkins. That would never have happened, you know, going all the way back to, I don't know. Just, that's amazing to me. So

01:42:45.189 - 01:43:10.930

it's just a different, it's, it's all good. There's nothing this is different. Mhm. Mhm. So you recently retired? Um, why did you decide to retire at this time? Um, well, I, I decided to, I, I had, I had been thinking about it for a long time.

01:43:11.799 - 01:43:33.959

I, I started thinking about it. Uh probably 2011, 2012, which is crazy because 2009, 10 11 were highlight years. I, I had very, very big projects going on and I was delegating and, and manipulating and to make these things happen, not manipulating in a negative way.

01:43:34.089 - 01:43:56.649

Um like manipulating clay, working, you know, working towards making things happen. Um But I had some very severe health issues in 2011. And, um, I just, I found myself not functioning quite as well and, and I was, I would get tired more often and, you know,

01:43:57.049 - 01:44:14.950

in this industry, everybody has an opinion and I, I think I finally hit my, my tea cup was overflowing with opinions. I did had opinions, you know, I just, I think I just, I had people telling me you shouldn't, you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't

01:44:14.959 - 01:44:22.520

do that. You shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that and you should try to do this and you should do this and it just seemed like that was all around me all the time and, and still I was, I was making these things happen and

01:44:22.529 - 01:44:45.990

I was doing it my way and I highly encourage everybody to do it your way. But, um, I know and then I, you know, yo, our youngest daughter and Lily, our oldest daughter, there's such talented people. They're such beautiful people. I mean, I just, I would

01:44:46.000 - 01:45:02.410

hear them sing and I would go, wow, they can sing. I mean, I'd had this career and I have all these records and blah, blah, blah. But all of a sudden I could really hear them and it just seemed like I needed and this, I'm not

01:45:02.419 - 01:45:17.370

being a martyr. I don't want you to get mad at me. I don't want people to say whatever. I just wanted to kind of move out of the way. I felt like I'd done everything I could. I don't, I can't keep up anymore with social media.

01:45:17.379 - 01:45:35.839

It's too much for me. But Lily and eo, they just, man, nothing makes me happier than when they sing and yo doesn't sing anymore and she doesn't like me to talk about it. So don't watch this video and she has a beautiful voice just as beautiful

01:45:35.850 - 01:45:55.259

as Lily's. They're very different and, and I miss her voice and I guess I thought if I moved out of the way they would have more room. So anyway, Lily's making music and it's just, uh it's exquisite. It's, I, I can't even, I don't even know

01:45:55.270 - 01:46:18.979

how she does it. It's, she's like a magic fairy. She's, her voice is so beautiful and her songs are just unbelievable and, you know, and was just, just as talented and I don't know, just seemed like a good time. I think I'm tired. I think, you

01:46:18.990 - 01:46:33.529

know, I don't know why they say retired. They should say I'm tired. I'm gonna go get rehired because I'm just tired. You know, I just, I feel like I really, to the best of my ability and I made a shit load of mistakes and I am

01:46:33.540 - 01:46:47.779

really sorry to all my boyfriends. I know I'm a nut job. I'm hard. I'm mean, I'm, I'm here one minute that I'm not. And I, I, you know, I don't have regrets like bunny rate says I don't have regrets because it got me right here. But

01:46:47.790 - 01:47:00.270

you know, I'm sorry. And I just, I had just had the best time. I, you know, I did, I really worked hard. I don't think anybody would question that and I made things happen that didn't exist before and I'm really proud of that and I tried

01:47:00.279 - 01:47:15.529

to be as creative as my parents were and find creative solutions to everything and make things exist that brought beauty to the world. And now it's just, I just wanna live by the sea and make good things happen in smaller communities and that's what I wanna

01:47:15.540 - 01:47:34.520

do. So I hope that answered your question. Sorry. But again, I don't give short answers. That's, that's excellent. Um Well, I think with that you would have come to an end. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been lots of fun. Thank you.