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MT: So, today is September 21st, 2023. MT: My name is Muriel Taylor Adair, and I'm here to interview Ryan Takaba on behalf of the MT: Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. MT: He's a material artist whose work focuses on the study of scientific reason and the power

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MT: of belief. He experiments with properties and functionality of materials to solve MT: design problems, formal aesthetics and conceptual stances. MT: He does exhibition work and public art as part of his collaborative team R& MT: R&R, as well as teaching at university.

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MT: So, Mr. Takaba, thank you for speaking with me today. RT: Nice to meet you. MT: Nice to meet you. We'll just kind of go through your life from the beginning. MT: So, first, I guess, could you tell us about when and where you were born?

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RT: I was born in Honolulu, Hawaii in 1976. RT: I grew up there for the majority of my life. RT: My family has roots back until, like, early 1900s. RT: So I'm a fourth generation of Okinawan, Japanese, and Chinese

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RT: ancestry. And most of RT: my extended family lives there. RT: And then I sort of moved around for college and then ended up on the mainland full-time RT: .

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MT: How would you describe the household and neighborhood you grew up in? RT: Oh, it was a—in the 70s, they RT: –they took a pineapple field and put one of the early suburbs based RT: off California's suburban planned communities.

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RT: And so I grew up in one of those. RT: A-And so, it's a little strange on an island that–that they plop this suburban RT: community, back in the 70s. RT: And tried to use that—I guess, that model, and

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RT: see what happens. So, the–the neighborhood was just RT: all young families and a lot RT: of–a lot of children about the same age. RT: So it just seemed like they built this community, everybody moved in around the same

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RT: time. RT: And I have one brother, but I had many other brothers because we all lived on the RT: same block. And so it was a really great place to grow up because I had a lot of RT: friends, which I'm still close to or still have–still have a lot of

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RT: ties to just because of that time spent together. MT: That's really cool. MT: What were your parents' occupations and what were some of the values that they emphasized MT: in your upbringing?

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RT: Um, my mom's a kindergarten teacher. RT: My dad is—he was working in insurance. RT: And then eventually—or health insurance. RT: And then worked in management and health insurance.

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RT: He was originally in sales first. RT: And it's the major employer, HMSA, which is Hawaii's RT: medical insurance agency. RT: My mom taught on a–an army base, Schofield Barracks.

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RT: And so—oh, values? RT: [MT: Yeah.] Yeah. RT: That's a good question, I guess I haven't thought about that in that way RT: . But I know they were really–they're really great parents as far as...

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RT: what they instilled in me. RT: As far as, like, picking certain things, I know that they—t RT: heir—I think the biggest thing was maybe just integrity of—honesty, RT: integrity. I know that I–I even still

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RT: have conversations with my father about that. MT: Do you have, like, a favorite childhood memory, or several? RT: Um...yeah, RT: I mean, a lot of it was with my friends, I think.

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RT: I think my creativity came from–from growing up RT: with a lot of freedom with kids. RT: And just—I think it was of that generation that—the 80s RT: kids. Generation of the 80s.

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RT: So if you grew up in the 80s, you just had a more analog RT: childhood. But it was also coming from, m aybe, the RT: influence of the generation before, like, the boomers of the RT: 60s. So it's sort of changing into that latchkey kid,

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RT: although there was—so there was a lot of freedom when you came home from school to RT: just play, I guess. RT: And so most of my memories come from building things with my friends. RT: So skateboarding and things like that.

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RT: So we used to take our skateboards, and then turn it into push carts and stuff RT: like that. And, like, I guess—I think it's—I mean, I think at that RT: generation seems there's, like, a lot of commonalities. RT: Like, forts and stuff, like, we used to build tree houses.

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It was just a lot of freedom and to create–creating things with–with whatever. Like, parents were really nice about lending tools. So, I used to be able to work with my dad's tools and he built things so I could

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just kind of follow along. He built a clubhouse for me and my brother. Which was sort of like our own little space outside of the house and had friends over.

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And so I think a lot of the neighborhood kids' parents did that. One of my friend's father was in construction, so he just had a lot of lumber and tools around. And allowed an older group of kids to build something and then hand–hand this push cart down to us,

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onto the younger kids, and we built it into something else and then eventually nobody wanted to store it and burned it [laughs]. So, I think, yeah, most of my memories are just having–having a lot of free time to play on the street, and then explore, yeah.

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MT: That sounds amazing. MT: Sort of related, I guess, you were talking about your creativity. MT: Do you remember, like, the first memory you have of becoming interested in art MT: specifically.

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MT: Or actually more specifically than that, I know that your art now uses all MT: kinds of different materials like flowers, ash, clay, wood. MT: [RT: Mhm.] Do you have specific memories associated with those materials? MT: Or, like, what made you interested in working with those materials?

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RT: Uh, not–not really. RT: I think—again, like, when I was a child, we used to just RT: work with wood, but it wasn't really art making, it was more RT: of just being creative with wanting to make stuff.

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RT: Not really on a training or any, like, any kind of formal aesthetic or anything like RT: that. Because I also didn't really RT: go to a lot of art programs when I was younger RT: . I think the creativity just came from freedom of time and

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RT: playing. And then—but in high school, I did a lot of drawing and RT: painting. So, in college, I didn't even think I was gonna go into art. RT: I sort of just found it by electives. RT: So, I just was looking for what—just taking a lot of different classes,

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RT: thinking about what I would wanna do as an adult. RT: And I think, sort of that was, like, right, pre-Internet, so you RT: could sit in classes. RT: So, I used to sit in to a lot of science classes.

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RT: I took a lot of natural science classes just for information in big lecture RT: halls. So, that influenced a lot of the work. RT: The materials really come from one specific personal RT: experience through memories of my grandmother and time spent with

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RT: her. So it's–it's about her altar and–and those objects on her altar. RT: So the flower–the flowers and the vase, candles and the wax, RT: the candle holder and incense, and incense holders. RT: Then, slowly it sort of just became those materials.

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MT: Wow. In one presentation on your website, one of the videos up on there, MT: you—I think you said that your great grandparents brought, like, Buddhist beliefs MT: and traditions with them? MT: That some of your family still practice.

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MT: And then you also mentioned, like, Shinto influence on or similarities to Hawaiian MT: tradition. So did you grow up practicing these traditions or other religions or MT: anything like that? And do you still feel connected to that today? RT: Uh, I always questioned—I think a lot of the work now that I'm making was just questions I

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RT: always had as a child, about, like, your identity connected to RT: religion. And what that might be, or if you needed to have one or what—a belief in RT: particular. So, it was questions like that. RT: And then, also, the influence of the natural world in–in Hawaii is

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RT: so strong and powerful there that it's hard to ignore that. RT: And then the ancestral traditions that get passed too, through family RT: members. RT: And especially since Hawaii is mul-mul-multicultural

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RT: with a lot of different immigrant populations that have sort of blended their RT: practices together that it is very different from, RT: maybe, the main country or even RT: the United States Asian populations.

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RT: So a lot of those questions just came from going through, RT: like, family ceremonies or RT: religious practices that are heavily Buddhist from RT: my–from my—whatever was just passed down through

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RT: ancestors. RT: But I didn't quite know what–what—why you were doing RT: certain things. I think things got changed, and then—like, RT: if you, like, when I was reading the—reading about specific

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RT: rituals or death traditions and things like that, the–the things we were RT: practicing were–were a little bit of that, but have changed. RT: So—and have become their own thing [laughs] because of proximity to place RT: and changing of religions and stuff like that.

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RT: So–so mainly I was just questioning what that meant to me to RT: practice something like that, that was just inherited. And, that sort of led to ideas, but also just spending time with my grandmother.

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Since I was living away, I would only have, like, 1 or 2 trips a year home. So, as one's aging, you sort of count that how many times you may have left, sort of. And so, that–that made me a little bit more in tune with whatever I was

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doing or the time spent. But a lot of our time spent was just hanging out at–at home, and then my grandmother would ask me to clean her altar, so a lot of it was just doing simple things like that, spending time.

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And then, so, that sort of developed into a body of work. But it al—it was using my grandmother as a source or a subject. But, internalizing that hump somehow and then outputting it through—in a way, it's sort of like self portrait work too,

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even though it doesn't read that way. But it's things about home, about time, about change. Things that aren't lasting. So the material choices, because they're ephemeral, that was sort of the

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main–the main reason. MT: That's really interesting. MT: So, you mentioned college a little bit earlier, but could you MT: talk about, like, which colleges you attended, what years, and, like, how you

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MT: ended up steering towards ceramics, I guess, and then just art in general? RT: Mhm. I grad—I graduated high school in 1994, and then went to RT: the University of Hawaii from 1994 to 1997—or, RT: 1996, I'm sorry.

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RT: And so the first two years I was sort of just... RT: trying to figure out what I was gonna [laughs]–what I was gonna major in. RT: And I remember, like, they used to give you a schedule of classes, which was one of RT: those, like, very boring printed manuals [laughs]

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RT: that was—that had no color [laughs]. RT: Looked like it—just like a phone book [laughs] or something like that. RT: And (inaudible) I just remember flipping through those—that schedule, looking for RT: classes that I thought were interesting.

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RT: So I did that for two years, and then I think I just needed a change. RT: I always wanted to travel off–off the island for school anyway. RT: But—so I went on an exchange program where you could pla—you could pay RT: local in-state tuition at a university outside.

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RT: They had, like, sister institutions and stuff like that within the state. RT: So, one was Western Washington in–in Bellingham. RT: So I–I did—especially the–the university system was so cheap at that RT: time. So in-state tuition was really affordable.

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RT: And so I could go to out-of-state school for one year, get credit RT: transfers and—but just to experience something different. RT: So I did that. And then I–I think I thought about art at that RT: time a little bit more, but I didn't take any classes.

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RT: It was good. It was like a really good year. RT: It was sort of a reboot of my college experience. I just needed something to change to get back into some kind of focus, but—so then when I came back, I took a

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ceramics class and that's–that's—so that was my senior year. So that senior year when I came back, I decided to take a ceramic class. I also thought about going into architecture. But there was—it was one of those programs that if you didn't start from the beginning,

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you're really put way far behind. And so, I found ceramics that answered, like, all of those questions that I—or interests. Like engineering, like firing, chemistry, the sciences,

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architecture. Because we would—we had the opportunity to build kilns and mix glazes. So you had a lot of the natural sciences mixed into this—the art medium. Plus it was of—you're working with Earth too.

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So there was that, that, I think, I always was drawn to. And that got me going. So, I had a really good group of peers at that time that were above me in–in skill and class level.

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So I was able to learn a lot from my peers and spend—we used to have a lot of all-nighters in the studio. And so it was a really great experience. And I took two more years to–to graduate.

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So I did an art degree in three years, took me six years. And then I took several years off. And then went to grad school at Kent State in Ohio. So at that time, I knew I was always—I would alway—I already wanted to go outside

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of Hawaii for grad school. But I–I didn't–I didn't really know where to go or, like, how to approach it at that point. And who to study with and things like that.

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So I had a lot of professors from Ohio, so that was sort of–that was the direction. They were from Ohio State but I went–I knew of a professor at Kent State, and they also had a wood kiln, which I wanted to do at that time. So that–I think the early

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2000s, wood firing in ceramics was really popular. And it's–it's–it's held a lot of my aesthetic philosophy, e-even though I don't work that way now. But the idea of a material

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changing and things that are temporal or there's a lot of unpredictability to it. All of those ceramic things that can be really painful when, you know [laughs], it doesn't work out.

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But very exciting. It has moved into this kind of work where they're very temporal materials. The change, there's a duration. There's some control that–that I want for the compositions, but then they end up—y

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ou know, you're sort of hoping that it—you test it the way you want it to work out, and at least it works out [laughs] somewhat closely to–to that outcome. But—but it—the materials, there's just—it's hard to get it to do the exact same thing every time.

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And so ceramics is quite like that. MT: Really interesting. MT: Do you feel like there was a specific, like, moment in your MT: time in college or project maybe that was, like, most meaningful for you?

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MT: Or most had the most influence on your path? MT: Or was it just everything? RT: Um, RT: I think as just my nature of being a student, I

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RT: wasn't—I think that—going back to what you asked about my RT: parents, my parents are always pushing me to do well RT: in whatever I did, and very supportive too. RT: For any choice, you know, even for the arts.

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RT: But I think the—so, I always wanted to—I always RT: tried my best to do well in school, but I know with the arts—[clears throat] excuse RT: me. I remember this in undergrad. RT: Sometimes it would just take me a while to have—get an idea going and I didn't really

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RT: like just sitting there without an idea or just be—like, you have RT: to work in class, but when you're not really—nothing's there, It just feels like RT: it's a waste of time. So I used to always come in at the evening hours and work. RT: So that—I didn't really have as much structure in my program.

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RT: But I did feel like I had the discipline to see things through. And so my un—graduate program was very unstructured. I—sometimes I wish it was a little bit more structured. But it–it gave me a lot of freedom to

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do whatever I wanted to do. But, your resources were all dependent on if you went and sought them out or made do, especially with some of the facilities, some things weren't working as the way they should, maybe, but, you know—but I

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think it made you become more resourceful rather than everything, rather than having, like, a really top-of-the-line equipment, that a lot of things were handmade and they were funky and you just had to make do and learn–learn how to work with it. But, like, right now, I

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mean, I'd rather have equipment that I can–I can rely [laughs] on. But that place, at–at that time, the equipment was just a lot of handmade kilns. Which I think helped me understand that part of ceramics.

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And then I really enjoy building kilns myself, so. But they're just, like, a project or an art piece. Like everybody's kiln's a little different because it's handmade. And so, that—I think, that freedom, or just being

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able to experiment and—has been, like, the main thing I think that's—that I think school has give—provided me. That, I guess, you know, the freedom to experiment, but also the discipline to see—to keep moving.

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Like, it was just a lot of ownership on oneself to make sure you got succeeded with whatever you needed. MT: That's really cool to hear about. MT: So, although, I guess, although it was a lot of self-driven work, did you have

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MT: any professors or mentors that you felt like were really helpful or had a MT: lasting impact on you at any of your schools? RT: I had an art history professor at Kent State, actually, he was a RT: professor that moved to San Antonio.

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RT: And coincidentally we were living in the same city after I RT: was out of school. RT: And he was just a really great art history—contemporary art history professor. RT: And so, the topics that he taught were very influential

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RT: in, like, looking at work, because I wasn't looking or thinking about work at that way RT: —at–at that point in my life. RT: I know he did this seminar on Richard Smith—Robert Smithson. RT: And Kent State had his partially buried woodshed.

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RT: And—so back in the 70s he came as a visiting artist and then RT: buried, almost to the point of collapse, this old shed. RT: And it was about entropy, and I think that –that has—that, I guess, that is one of RT: those things that have-has come back to the work I'm doing now,

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RT: thinking about entropy. RT: And material changes and what happens through the process. RT: But anyway, he buried this shed until this beam cracked, and RT: it was the same year of the shooting by the National Guard at Kent in

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RT: Ohio. So there was that loaded imagery and I—just from looking at pictures and from the –the course a nd what I thought about it.

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You know, the raid was that–that was sort of the–the allegory of–of the country. So that–that mound on the beam in tension . And then eventually it cracked.

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It tied into that shooting. Somebody wrote the date of the shooting on there and it sort of became a living memorial. Then eventually it broke, and then all that was left when I was there and when I took that class was the foundation.

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So it was just a–a little forest with some concrete beams. The footprint of it. But I think the–the idea in itself and the documentation, was really interesting.

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As far as what you saw afterwards, it's just–just sort of remnants of that whole process. But I–I know that kind of work has–has always stuck with me. And I think–I still think about Smithson's work a lot.

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And, yeah, so that professor—yeah, the class is–that class is really good because it was a seminar class, it was the 35th anniversary... of his partially buried woodshed. MT: That's really interesting.

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MT: I guess moving on from education then to your MT: work, could you provide, like, a brief timeline just of, I MT: guess [laughs], all of your professional experience or work as, I guess, an MT: artist and a teacher?

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RT: Okay. So from RT: 2003 to 2005, I was at Kent. RT: Graduated in 2005. RT: And then, met my current wife

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RT: in 2004. RT: So we're both at Kent. RT: She was going to graduate school in Massachusetts after I graduated RT: . So we decided to move there together.

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RT: So from 2005 through 2008, RT: we're at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. RT: The first year I–I received the residency program in Boston RT: at a ceramic—community ceramic center.

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RT: So I had a studio there and I had—it was good because I moved there and I also had RT: something to–to do on my own while she entered graduate school. RT: So I spent the year there and then some teaching, part-time. RT: And the second year and the third year for graduate

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RT: program, there was this artist in-residence or studio RT: manager position that opened up. RT: So I–I applied for that and then I did that for two years. RT: So, I was back in the same city that we were living in.

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RT: Prior to that, I was commuting to Boston. So after a while [laughs] it got a little–a little difficult because of the traffic and stuff like that. And I would have to stay up—usually I would stay in my studio overnight. So I would do two nights or two days there, and then come

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back in two more days. So, for that time, I– I–I–I was in that residency program and did the studio manager position. And that was good because it prepped me for, l

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ike, just having more technical ability. And so I did that. And then I think that led me to a studio manager position in San Antonio. And so that's how I got to Texas.

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So 2008, we both moved to the Southwest School of Art. And then I did a studio manager position there. And then at that same time, maybe a year later, this—a

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new program was in the works already for a bachelor's program, for a BFA program. So, that was really interesting. We thought we would just stick around Texas for maybe a couple years and then move on. But that kept—that was really good for my professional growth.

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And so I got to build a curriculum with the —with my colleagues, build a full program, see it through from, like, 2014 or 2015 through...I

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guess, '21. And then in 2021, it was–it was already in the works to be merged with UTSA. And so, in 2022, it was–it was already with UTSA.

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And that was my last year and then I left. And then moved to Phoenix to work at Arizona State University with my wife. (inaudible) Jennifer (?). But also when I was at–at the Southwest School, we went through a renovation,

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so I was able to redesign and help build or renovate a ceramic studio. So that was really good information to learn. And then we had the opportunity to build kilns, so I did that.

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And just run a program and do the admin work for chairing the department. It was really good experience. So that–that 15 year part of my career was really, l ike, really good years to propel me into where I'm at now.

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And the art community there was really supportive and I think a lot of the—I mean, when you look at 15 years, it's almost like you're—like, how you would develop as a child to an adult.

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But it was sort of my development as a artist out of school. That 15 years was, like, important time. And then, in a way, my graduation was that Artpace residency in a way, it was, like, the last big thing I did.

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And then I moved. MT: So your art has taken a bunch of different forms over the years, and I'm MT: curious if you feel like it has evolved kind of, like, linearly from one medium to the MT: next? Like, you–you work with this material and these themes for a while and then

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MT: you sort of change it, or has it been a more winding path? RT: Uh... RT: yeah, it's probably more of. RT: .. in circles, I think.

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RT: I know I've—but also very—excuse me, but also I think it would be linear RT: too. Because these–these threads have been p retty RT: long for—I've been working with some of these ideas for a long time. RT: But I think, like, thinking of it as jumping around, more

00:29:52.420 - 00:30:05.560

RT: circular, because I– know in my–my BFA RT: work, I can probably tie it back to the work I'm doing now. RT: It's just was very different. RT: But I also didn't know how to articulate those ideas.

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RT: And it was trying to touch on–on RT: i-ideas of belief or spirituality or r eligion without RT: really saying it, but also with the natural phenomena. RT: But trying to make something like that's very loaded

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RT: in content, but in ceramics, through an object was really RT: hard to–to get that to translate. RT: But I know that that was the interest. RT: I think the skill level at that time and the materials just were not able

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RT: to express that. RT: But–but those ideas now are—I RT: think I just have the skill set and the new material—new RT: opportunity with materials that are allowed me to see through those ideas.

00:30:57.830 - 00:31:14.520

RT: Just in a more refined way, I guess. RT: But–But as far as, like, a linear thread, they're pretty old ideas. MT: That's really interesting. MT: I'm curious.

00:31:14.520 - 00:31:29.490

MT: So you do, like, individual work and exhibitions and stuff, but you also—your bio MT: says you're part of that—the team, like collaborative team. MT: [RT: Mhm.] What are the differences in, like, responsibilities or how you MT: work individually versus on a team?

00:31:31.840 - 00:31:48.990

RT: Uh, the individual work, I think—one, I think the university system RT: allows me to–to make work that is not dependent RT: on retail, maybe, for example. RT: So, it is more research-based and experimental, it's not really for

00:31:48.990 - 00:32:07.220

RT: sale. But it allows me to–to see through these RT: ideas that might not be otherwise possible i f–if I RT: was–if I was dependent on selling it. RT: The public work that I'm working on with these other two guys, that is

00:32:07.220 - 00:32:24.370

RT: very different. And it's—there's a goal-driven work and it's—t RT: he money, the–the budgets are bigger and...t here–there RT: is an end goal in it. RT: Whereas, the work I'm doing, sometimes it takes a while to get to that end

00:32:24.370 - 00:32:41.530

RT: goal. So the process is RT: different and–and it is collaborative. RT: So the–the idea is that I'm working and my own work RT: might not translate to the public work or also working with other–two other

00:32:41.530 - 00:32:58.690

RT: people. So–So it's a—it's allowed me to change RT: my way of working. It's almost like a separate project. RT: And I just think of it that way now. RT: It's a different way of working and the outcomes are different, the–the goals are

00:32:58.690 - 00:33:18.270

RT: different. The work is going to be different from w RT: hat–what I might do on—maybe on my own, for example. RT: But–But it's–it's interesting project. RT: Just that it's a different working process.

00:33:21.700 - 00:33:41.700

MT: Well, in your–your personal projects, how do you MT: —or do you feel like it's been easy, or are there difficulties in communicating the MT: ideas and the meaning behind your art to an audience, or anything like that? RT: Um...

00:33:41.700 - 00:33:57.260

RT: I don't know. I know this last project, I did get a lot of—a lot more feedback because i-it RT: was interactive too, and it involved—it–it had the potential to RT: involve more people. RT: Whereas some of the other projects they were—they were more about

00:33:57.260 - 00:34:11.430

RT: daily use, daily ritual. RT: And so I involve myself using it. RT: And it progressed over a period of time or it was very slow RT: moving. So if you saw it in a gallery or an exhibition, you probably

00:34:11.430 - 00:34:22.730

RT: wouldn't see everything. RT: Just because you had to spend more time with it. RT: And so the video documentation allowed for that to be visible. RT: This last piece, that art piece.

00:34:23.650 - 00:34:39.720

RT: Because it was more interactive that you could—you could pick up on that quicker, I RT: think. And it wasn't—it wasn't about the—the one-person RT: experience anymore. RT: Or most of the other projects were about more of a solo experience within a space and

00:34:39.720 - 00:34:51.760

RT: objects. That—the materials move really slowly too. RT: And so the–the subtle changes were just not evident if you just visited that RT: piece once. RT: So...

00:34:54.290 - 00:35:12.390

Uh, I think that's—that was the hardest thing to translate because the amount of time somebody might give to a work is very short. And—then if it moves really [laughs] slowly too, it's just very difficult. So the videos were ways to capture that—that chunk of time with what's

00:35:12.390 - 00:35:22.420

happening. And I–I think that's—that is the reason why I've moved to that format, I think. And the pieces don't last. So that's–that's where they live now.

00:35:22.420 - 00:35:42.620

They just live—they just live on video. But I also didn't—I also try not to make the work specifically say that—say something. I try to keep it as a little bit more interpretive and

00:35:42.890 - 00:35:53.740

try to edit out as much as I can and pare it down to materials and content. So the imagery, there's–there's very little imagery. It's more forms.

00:35:54.680 - 00:36:08.720

Simplicity and form. So then it—there's not a lot that's given to you, as far as, like, directing you in o-one way. So it's more about materials, seeing what materials—or you're

00:36:08.720 - 00:36:26.820

experiencing material in simple forms. MT: That's really, really cool. And I've—I'm super interested in the videos and pictures MT: I've seen on your website. MT: Do you have anything that you feel like is your greatest accomplishment so far or your,

00:36:26.820 - 00:36:45.460

MT: like, best piece so far? RT: Yeah [laughs]. RT: I can say one—well, the Artpace piece is one piece that has changed my way of working. RT: I think that–that experience—and one I just took it down

00:36:45.460 - 00:37:02.620

RT: too, so I just—it's pretty fresh and I just came back last week from RT: de-installing it, so I was back in Texas. RT: But it–it was one of those pieces that because the–the RT: institution and the–the support, the budget, it allowed me to

00:37:02.620 - 00:37:21.100

RT: work in a different way and increase the scale, in a–in a way. RT: Work collaboratively, but not in the same collaboration as the–the RT: public work. Because it is—there are no limits. RT: Public work, there are limitations and you have a lot of stakeholders.

00:37:21.100 - 00:37:37.910

RT: But–but this one, they just allowed you to experiment. RT: Having support, having actual, like, labor support RT: too, to help build something that you couldn't do on your own. So, it-it's moved back into my interest in architecture.

00:37:38.480 - 00:37:49.480

I've always been interested in that. And I think those small flower pieces were looking at the flowers' architecture and what that might look like. So sort of building for the flower.

00:37:49.720 - 00:38:02.700

And this one I was really building for the–the body and then, the body inside and the bodies outside. So it was more of an architectural piece. And a hybrid of, like, an object and an installation.

00:38:04.600 - 00:38:21.990

So, that–that is the direction that I want to move now into. And then it's just finding continued support. And space, because I was able to build that piece in the space. And the only way to get it out was to take it apart in the space.

00:38:23.600 - 00:38:38.650

So, in that sense, like, that was a really short time, but a lot of growth. And I've never worked that quickly either. So I usually [laughs], like, take a long time to see my ideas through.

00:38:38.650 - 00:38:55.870

And if–if there isn't, like, a concrete deadline, it's easy to just, like, let that thing take a little longer. One project was, like, total maybe five years from, like, the first piece that I made to get the last two to make this triptych.

00:38:56.290 - 00:39:11.110

And that's the one in the house, the 49 piece. It also had multiple pieces, it was cast and cut in—with tec—the CNC router and stuff like that. So it was also trying to learn about some new technologies

00:39:11.110 - 00:39:28.370

and–and making it all fit and things like that. But there–there was a more a technical side to that piece. But, just getting the ideas down took a little longer. This one, I was sort of forced to–to push–push through the

00:39:28.370 - 00:39:42.320

idea because I had—there wasn't [laughs]–t here wasn't any other option. There was an exhibition attached to it. So yeah, so it–it was good. And I think—so, like, I don't know if it's the best piece, but it's a new piece

00:39:42.320 - 00:40:00.400

that it's the direction—a new direction. It was, like, a good time to, like, see through something new that I know I'd like to work in, I just trying to–I'm just trying to find the opportunity. So I think maybe making models is kind of where I'm going to go right now until I

00:40:00.400 - 00:40:16.920

have the space, resources. MT: That's really interesting. MT: Thank you. I guess, moving on from career, the MT: next sort of few questions are, like, family and personal life.

00:40:16.930 - 00:40:31.580

MT: So you mentioned your wife earlier, but could you just tell us about your family now? MT: Like, maybe how you met your wife. RT: Uh, so her name is Jennifer Dat—Jennifer Ling Datchuk. RT: She's—also has a lot of ties to Houston and the

00:40:32.060 - 00:40:44.890

RT: Texas art scene. RT: We—I guess we both—Texas was that place for both of us to sort RT: of grow as artists. RT: And, we met in Ohio in school.

00:40:46.070 - 00:41:01.930

RT: She was doing her undergraduate in ceramics while I was finishing up my graduate RT: program. RT: And then I–I think we just connected RT: over art and life and then

00:41:03.040 - 00:41:20.350

RT: sort of built this partnership together where our–our lives are so intertwined. RT: And even our careers too. RT: So we've always worked in some capacity together. RT: So when I was at the Southwest School, she taught part-time, then eventually had a

00:41:20.350 - 00:41:35.350

RT: full-time job there in ceramics as faculty. RT: Then she worked at Texas State and I was still at the Southwest School. RT: And then–then UTSA. RT: Then the ceramic position came around and then a foundation position came around.

00:41:35.350 - 00:41:49.520

RT: And then, that's how we ended up here. RT: So we're both at Arizona State but in different departments. We also are tied into, like, at UMass together in some capacity. So a lot of our–our, like, art mentors

00:41:49.760 - 00:42:05.610

know—have mentored us together and especially from Massachusetts and that experience. So we—our lives have always just been really intertwined. Our working lives, our professional lives and our artistic lives.

00:42:05.880 - 00:42:16.370

And then the family life. So, we have–we have two Chi—w ell, we had two Chihuahuas, now we have one. We had two cats, now we have one.

00:42:16.370 - 00:42:30.100

So now we have [laughs] one Chihuahua and one cat in Arizona. And that's our family here. And then my brother and my parents, two nephews back in Hawaii.

00:42:30.100 - 00:42:44.910

And a big extended family that's getting a little smaller now, just as my grandmother's siblings pass away. They–They were a family of nine. So that–that extension of the family I have a lot of second, third cousins.

00:42:47.520 - 00:43:07.640

And then a lot of friend—yeah, a lot of old friends that I would say they're more family, like, they —we've kind of grown in different career paths, but, when we reconnect, it's almost like connecting back with family. MT: Do you feel like you've been able to stay pretty connected to your extended family and

00:43:07.640 - 00:43:25.400

MT: your friends? RT: Yeah, I think–I think because I knew I was—I had RT: limited time every time I went home, that I tried to—I think the pandemic changed a lot RT: of things. And even our family gatherings are different now.

00:43:27.320 - 00:43:42.200

RT: So some traditions have been lost, I RT: guess. So I think that's RT: changed, which is hard, I think. RT: I guess I—my part—my life has always

00:43:42.200 - 00:43:57.250

RT: been changing, and I think some RT: family—some aspects of my family was slow to change. RT: So it was nice, I could always go back and nothing's changed. RT: And there were some grea—a lot of comfort in that.

00:43:57.970 - 00:44:14.560

RT: And so I felt like I could explore, I could do what I wanted to do, and go back RT: and–and everything's kind of still the same. RT: And, I think the pandemic, that's the one thing that kind of changed a lot of RT: that. So it is–it is a lot different now.

00:44:16.170 - 00:44:39.110

RT: Even with friends, old friends too. RT: So I'm trying to re-reconnect, I guess, just trying to be a little bit more, RT: I don't know, I guess make–make the attempt to do it RT: more. You know, because it's easy to just let

00:44:39.680 - 00:44:51.110

RT: –let that time go by. RT: Yeah. MT: Thank you for telling me about that. MT: Oh, really quick question before we move on to the next section.

00:44:51.110 - 00:45:01.500

MT: What are your pets' names [laughs]? RT: Oh, well, the–the Chihuahua is Francis. RT: And she's 11. RT: The cat is Shoji.

00:45:02.530 - 00:45:21.030

RT: She's about 2 or 3, maybe 2 and a half, something like that. RT: We had another Chihuahua named Scooter, who was—he RT: was sort of the, like, a—I don't know, RT: like a marker of your time in a place.

00:45:21.570 - 00:45:38.560

RT: And so he—we got him maybe a year after we were in San Antonio. RT: We lost him the year before we moved. RT: And so he–he was just, like, a fixture of our time there. RT: So it was–it was one of those closures of maybe a

00:45:39.190 - 00:45:56.660

RT: period in your life that–that you also making a move too. RT: I think there was just a lot of things that were pushing us into a change. RT: And so that was–but that was also one thing, too, that he was just getting RT: old. He had dementia and...

00:45:56.660 - 00:46:10.710

RT: yeah. RT: And then, we had another cat, but we also l ost her in a—she got RT: killed on the street. RT: Maybe we let her out a little too early, but–but the two cats are

00:46:10.710 - 00:46:26.250

RT: siblings. So at one point we had four [laughs], two–two Chihuahuas and two cats and RT: it was [laughs] pretty funny to watch them interact together. RT: Because the Chihuahua, the one that passed away, he just had a really easy-going, RT: mellow personality.

00:46:26.340 - 00:46:41.700

RT: I mean, he did have separation anxiety early on, but later in his RT: life, he was just "Hey, what's going on here?" Like going to somebody's house and RT: [laughs], like, real—feel real comfortable. RT: Where the other one's anxiety doesn't like that change.

00:46:42.590 - 00:46:55.850

RT: But it was–it was nice to see him interact with the cats because RT: he–he—they got along really well. RT: Yeah. MT: Thank you for telling me about that.

00:46:56.300 - 00:47:10.470

MT: So we've talked about career and sort of family and I wanted to ask a MT: few questions about identity. MT: [RT: Mhm.] So the first one is: how do you identify yourself ethnically? RT: Yeah, that's interesting.

00:47:10.470 - 00:47:25.970

RT: I guess, like my—Jennifer and I have a lot–have a lot of conversations about that RT: because she's her mother is from China and her father's white from RT: Ohio. And so she biracial RT: in the United States.

00:47:25.970 - 00:47:43.170

RT: In Hawaii it's so different that–that everybody's RT: ethnicity is sort of mixed up and—s RT: o you tend to identify with the nationality rather than e RT: thnicity. I mean ethnicity I guess.

00:47:43.170 - 00:47:58.620

RT: But so, for example, I might say I'm Japanese, Chinese, RT: Okinawan from Hawaii, though. RT: And that–that distinction is so important because it's very different from the RT: mainland. But if I said that to somebody on the

00:47:58.980 - 00:48:13.970

RT: mainland or from Asia, they'd be really confused, which I have done before. When I was in—I lived in New York for a year and I worked at this Japanese restaurant [laughs] and everybody was from—this was in my 20s, I was, like, 25, I think.

00:48:13.970 - 00:48:33.460

In between school, in between graduate school, and a lot of the coworkers were all from Asia, sort of in between college and, like, coming to the US just for a year or two to make some money and go home. But there are a lot from Southeast Asia, Malaysia, Indonesia and so one, I didn't

00:48:33.460 - 00:48:48.610

speak any Asian languages fluently. And they couldn't understand that if I said, like, I was half Japanese, half Chinese, they're, like, [laughs] really confused because, one, I didn't speak either of them fluently.

00:48:48.820 - 00:49:04.430

And then how is that even possible? But in Hawaii, you would say that just because you would define who you are that way. Because, like the indigenous population, even

00:49:04.670 - 00:49:21.000

though you would—you may say Hawaiian as a nationality, t he Kanaka Maoli as ethnicity. A lot of times, Hawaiian identity gets used— Hawaiian gets used as an identity, too. So, there can be that confusion.

00:49:21.420 - 00:49:35.370

So you wouldn't say you're Hawaiian. You would say, "Okay, I'm local" or something like that. Or I'm Japanese, you know, like if I was in–in the state identifying myself. Because of my last name.

00:49:39.250 - 00:49:54.060

MT: Would you use the term Asian American to describe yourself or your art MT: or not? RT: No, I mean, I think it depends on where I'm at. RT: Like if I'm in Hawaii I rarely—I've never really said Asian

00:49:54.060 - 00:50:10.470

RT: American, in that context. RT: Even Asian, like, everybody would just say Oriental. RT: And at–at that time, like, you know, you wouldn't use that now. RT: But at that time it was, like, wasn't looked down upon.

00:50:11.900 - 00:50:25.150

RT: But RT: then...yeah, I don't know. RT: I mean I guess like in the–in the–in the States, I have to RT: use that Asian American [laughs], I guess.

00:50:25.150 - 00:50:39.680

RT: But it wouldn't be, like, something that I would naturally gravitate towards because RT: –because Hawaii is just—I would rarely say that. RT: Or people wouldn't—it just doesn't really come up as often. RT: We would just say, "Oh, I'm Japanese" or something like that.

00:50:42.130 - 00:50:58.180

RT: But–but knowing that you're not from Japan because it's very different from—o RT: r any of those ethnicities because–because there would be people from Japan there or, RT: like, first generation there. RT: And so being fourth generation, it's so–so far

00:50:58.510 - 00:51:12.870

RT: from any home country that you're just—you're something totally RT: different already. MT: When and where do you feel most at home? MT: Do you have a place or time?

00:51:15.420 - 00:51:30.680

RT: Uh, yeah, I mean, I guess it's hard to say. RT: I–I still think of Hawaii as my home. RT: I think that I still use it in that context too. RT: Like, I'm going to go back home or—those are the things

00:51:30.680 - 00:51:50.650

RT: that—because—I'm—even though I'm living in–in RT: another state, I still feel like that root is still my home-home RT: . Not that I'm just visiting here, but it's–i t's a–it's a different kind of home. RT: And I thought a lot about that in my work too.

00:51:50.950 - 00:52:11.480

RT: I think that that is the things that–t hat–that RT: come up unconsciously, maybe. RT: Or subconsciously, that tho-those themes are there. MT: Do you have any instances of, like, if when you struggled to embrace your

00:52:11.480 - 00:52:24.780

MT: identity or experience some kind of any kind of discrimination based on MT: your identity? RT: Did you say have I or h-how do I deal with it? MT: Do you have any and how do you deal with them?

00:52:25.560 - 00:52:48.240

RT: Oh. Y RT: eah, I think—well, there's–there was a couple examples that I RT: maybe—or a couple of times that I missed things that–that Jennifer caught. RT: But I didn't see it as–as racist maybe, but maybe

00:52:49.120 - 00:53:06.310

RT: she–she felt offended. RT: And then I know, like, one time I RT: was in Washington, and I'm not sure if it was my youth or if it was my ethnicity RT: that this–this guy behind me accused me of doing something then–so then I turned around

00:53:06.310 - 00:53:22.580

RT: and I confronted him. RT: And... RT: so I guess, like, I–I still feel like I—maybe I RT: am betraying like a—being in a

00:53:22.580 - 00:53:39.810

RT: minority or—but–but I come from RT: a majority background. RT: So—which comes with, like, entitlement, I g uess RT: ? So it's a weird—because I've always been in a

00:53:40.020 - 00:53:55.680

RT: majority or feeling comfortable in a—as a majority. RT: For the whole time I've grown up. RT: Even–even my friends RT: are like, "Is this just–just—" because Hawai'i is so—it's—if you're white, you're

00:53:55.680 - 00:54:08.280

RT: sorta the—you're the minority [laughs] there. RT: So everybody else is kind of the majority o ther than, like, new RT: immigrants and stuff like that. RT: That's probably like—a li—probably get more discrimination because

00:54:08.280 - 00:54:23.810

RT: they're just not from Hawaii. RT: So in a way, it's, like, a reverse racism there, in this weird way. So, I'm already, like, I'm already trained to have this—I don't know.

00:54:23.820 - 00:54:38.980

I always just come from, like, a majority mindset, maybe ? So, I've never dealt with that kind of—that specific kind of racism maybe that my wife has.

00:54:40.480 - 00:54:56.400

But–but when it comes up, it's subtle and I don't really catch it as–a s fast, maybe. I think I was—I had this conversation with somebody else too, and I can't remember.

00:54:59.650 - 00:55:17.540

But it's just, like, anybody that's grown up in a dominant culture. That you–your–your everything is just sort of ingrained in you with the–the privilege of being in–in the dominant culture that it kind of carries on too.

00:55:19.460 - 00:55:37.410

Because, like, it's not like–like, other than, like, the way I look, like my—I don't have [laughs] an accent like somebody that has moved here. So, like [laughs], I feel like I can just move through spaces fine, other than the way [laughs] maybe first impressions or something like that.

00:55:38.440 - 00:55:56.710

But there is no language barrier or anything, so, like, I could deal with whatever confrontation comes up because I could speak my mind, you know, like... But other than just, like, first impressions, I think. So I think there was one incident that–that my wife got upset because I

00:55:56.710 - 00:56:10.410

think the way this guy talked to me, I didn't catch it, really, but I think she caught it, like he was–he was talking slower, as if I needed more time [laughs] to understand it or something. But I didn't–I didn't even pick up on it [laughs].

00:56:14.900 - 00:56:27.050

Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, I can't say that it won't happen, but at least in San Antonio, surprisingly, it's also a majority-minority city in a different way. But lots of unique relationships there.

00:56:27.560 - 00:56:46.820

And Arizona may be a little similar, but different. But–But both of those states, you know, big Latino populations, so... MT: We're sort of wrapping up now, I guess.

00:56:47.180 - 00:57:06.620

MT: So I have a few last questions. MT: One of them is: what advice would you give someone pursuing a career as MT: an artist or even just interested in exploring art and their creativity? RT: Yeah. I have these conversations with my students quite a bit because it's tough now.

00:57:06.620 - 00:57:23.280

RT: I think—it just–just the world to–to come up to—for a RT: young person to come up in this world, I feel like [laughs] it's just–it's just RT: challenging. One, because of economics. RT: Climate. And so, in a way, it's—

00:57:25.110 - 00:57:40.380

RT: I feel privileged to be able to be in a creative field and not have to grind it out RT: in another job. RT: But if one doesn't—is not able RT: to practice art in the traditional sense by making things, t

00:57:41.350 - 00:58:00.120

RT: hen I hope at least they'll use that process of art making, the problem solving, the RT: creative process that we all go through, RT: to–to benefit them in whatever else they're doing. RT: I think that's very beneficial,

00:58:00.120 - 00:58:18.930

RT: from an art program, regardless if you still make art or not, that you would—y RT: ou're learning–you're learning the creative process, really RT: . Which comes from a problem solve—trying to solve a problem creatively and communicate RT: it. If it's visually, you're communicating it visually.

00:58:20.380 - 00:58:35.150

RT: And finding that way to–finding a way to do that, RT: like, using it like a language. RT: But also being able to use it as a tool for whatever. RT: I think the art–the art field is so broad right now that t

00:58:36.810 - 00:58:53.180

RT: hings that you might not think are can be, and you can use the creative process for RT: that. So I–I think there's just no one path, RT: and it's trying to find your path based on your makeup. RT: Just the way you're wired, and make it work.

00:58:54.300 - 00:59:08.340

RT: But also not trying to follow a path that you think is right. RT: And I think I've done that, you know, like, that's what was handed down to me and I RT: realized it doesn't work. RT: It didn't work for me anyway, so just.

00:59:09.900 - 00:59:27.560

RT: .. But I think a–a lot of times pe-people that are not—that can't continue making, RT: maybe it's just they're trying to go down the incorrect path with it for themselves. MT: Yeah. Thank you. MT: And is there anything that you feel most proud of in your life?

00:59:27.560 - 00:59:41.940

MT: Not limited to your career? MT: Just anything? MT: I know that's kind of a broad question. RT: Oh, yeah. I

00:59:41.940 - 01:00:00.210

RT: don't—I just maybe feel pretty fortunate to–to RT: have the experiences that I've had, also be in a field RT: that—and a job that I r-really enjoy, RT: just having freedom, flexibility and time and w

01:00:01.080 - 01:00:19.360

RT: ork life. RT: Like a lot of, not RT: say, but just, like, feeling like you have autonomy over your—t RT: hrough day to day. So I–I think that's just—it's almost like you're–y

01:00:20.470 - 01:00:33.480

RT: ou're your own boss, but you're not. RT: But I think I feel like I have a lot of freedom in my RT: day rather than somebody telling me what to do. RT: Which makes it really enjoyable.

01:00:38.660 - 01:00:51.650

MT: Yeah, that's really cool. MT: And then, do you have any, like, final thoughts or just anything we haven't covered MT: yet that you would like to talk about? RT: Yeah, I don't know.

01:00:56.540 - 01:01:18.580

RT: ..I don't know, was there any other questions that you—that is off script that RT: ... I don't know, I guess, yeah. Go ahead. MT: Maybe a little bit about, like, teaching process or what it's–what it's like to teach. MT: You've taught—you've talked a lot about just, like, interacting with students and

01:01:18.580 - 01:01:31.670

MT: stuff. RT: Yeah, I think—I was having a–a–a RT: conversation the other day with my colleague, who's in pedagogy, RT: coming from art education.

01:01:32.770 - 01:01:46.730

RT: Professor. And working with grads and t RT: he one thing different for them is that they're coming to RT: school with their own agendas. RT: Like, it's about them.

01:01:47.330 - 01:02:03.850

RT: And then when teaching–when you're teaching, it's not about you anymore. RT: And I mean it is, but–but it isn't. RT: I feel like it's a separate way of—it's a separate use of RT: creativity. And it's a separate—it's a different use of, l

01:02:06.720 - 01:02:22.190

RT: ike, thinking of, like, an experimental space . RT: Like how one might think of a studio. RT: But the classroom can–can kind of be that. RT: I–I like that about teaching that–that I can set up these situations

01:02:22.190 - 01:02:31.760

RT: for things to happen. RT: But they're public spaces. RT: They're communal spaces. RT: And it's—yes, I'm using my own

01:02:32.720 - 01:02:51.570

RT: biases of what I think is important to–to teach, RT: but also am—I really—I–I like that wh RT: at happens in the classroom in that–that sense. RT: Looking at it more from an-a bigger project, like an art

01:02:51.570 - 01:03:06.910

RT: project. So I guess I now—I look at teaching sort of like that. It's another–another kind of art project for me ? And their goals, and what you're trying to achieve, you–you edit, you modify

01:03:06.910 - 01:03:25.540

things. You change it as you go. I think a lot of things that are not working, I have to just make–make a change at the moment and especially if the chemistry is not working, or projects aren't going the way it's planned.

01:03:25.720 - 01:03:42.350

I–I guess it's, like, the studio, you know, we—a piece isn't working quite right, you have to figure out a way to make it work. So I–I like that part of teaching, and I like it as a bigger project in a way.

01:03:45.480 - 01:04:05.690

MT: That's really interesting. MT: Thank you. I guess I don't really have any more questions. MT: So any–any final thoughts? RT: Uh...I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm–I'm thinking

01:04:06.170 - 01:04:23.410

RT: more about my identity, too, I guess. RT: But I–I don't know what the–what I would say at the moment, but. RT: .. because I have a lot of these conversations with–with Jennifer, because her RT: –her ideas of identity are a little different from mine.

01:04:25.290 - 01:04:46.350

RT: But I know it's very important to like the work I'm making because it is–i RT: t is wrapped in who I am, and touching on specific things RT: that—I think it's just because they're personal and they're–they're who I am. RT: But I think—and maybe this ties back to one of your other questions,

01:04:46.350 - 01:05:08.930

RT: sometimes it just gets—I don't want it to be read in a certain way like that. RT: Like it's coming from a specific ethnic p oint of view. RT: Because of the choice of materials or content. RT: It's easily–it's easy to, like, make it–m

01:05:10.500 - 01:05:29.070

RT: ake it seem like—put it into this bucket of "Okay, it must—" like, for example, I RT: was using the flower and somebody asked me if I–if I do Ikebana [laughs]. RT: And so, like, things like that where you realize, "Wh, there's a direct RT: relationship now there that people are picking up on." That I don't want

01:05:29.070 - 01:05:41.930

RT: that there. RT: One, because it's its own craft, but also— and discipline RT: and—but I also don't want to, like, make it, like, RT: a stereotype or that obvious.

01:05:43.150 - 01:06:01.160

RT: But maybe because they–they look at me and then they see the work and they automatically RT: assume that it's quiet work or something like RT: that. But RT: I don't know. And that's not the intent, but it's just interesting how that gets

01:06:01.160 - 01:06:20.570

RT: read. MT: Thank you. And, I MT: guess, if we're done with the questions, and you're—you MT: have no more [both laughs], I think we'll wrap up.

01:06:21.020 - 01:06:30.290

MT: Sorry. That was really awkward. RT: No, no, that's fine [both laughs]. MT: Thank you for speaking with me today. MT: Thank you [laughs] so much. It was an honor to hear your story and everything you had to

01:06:30.290 - 01:06:45.880

MT: say. In terms of, like, the process after this [RT: Uh huh.], it'll take a MT: few weeks to transcribe and then review the transcript. MT: And then we'll send it to you for approval before we do anything with it. MT: And I'll send you [RT: Yeah.] information about that in an email too.

01:06:45.890 - 01:06:55.370

MT: But yeah, just thank you so much. RT: So—oh yeah. So, does this go in your database ? RT: Or where is this going a-anyway? MT: Yeah, it'll go in the–the archive.

01:06:55.630 - 01:07:06.760

MT: It's an online archive. RT: Oh, okay. Through Rice's online archive? RT: [MT: Yeah.] Yeah. RT: Yeah, it's great talking to you, too.

01:07:07.210 - 01:07:11.260

RT: Thanks for the invitation. MT: Thank you so much.