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BRIANNA THOMPSON: Today is Friday, March 1st, 2024. BRIANNA THOMPSON: My name is Brianna Thompson, and I'm interviewing Rick Greenhut for the Archives. BRIANNA THOMPSON: Could you please provide us a description of your career path, beginning from your BRIANNA THOMPSON: training and continuing through to today?

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RICK GREENHUT: I'm currently retired from the broadcasting business, and I RICK GREENHUT: had a 50 plus year career. RICK GREENHUT: And believe it or not, I actually had to look to see what some of the high points RICK GREENHUT: were. In the broadcasting business, people tend to move around

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RICK GREENHUT: more than a lot of other professions. RICK GREENHUT: So just to hit some of the high points, I, I majored in RICK GREENHUT: broadcasting at the University of Cincinnati and during my RICK GREENHUT: junior and senior year got a summer job with NBC

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RICK GREENHUT: as an engineer for the radio network, which nicely paid for RICK GREENHUT: college and a couple of other things because they were under a union contract and RICK GREENHUT: it was the salary was very generous for a college kid. RICK GREENHUT: I graduated and immediately got a

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RICK GREENHUT: job locally in Cincinnati, where I went to school, as a disc jockey. RICK GREENHUT: Now, I knew I didn't want to play phonograph recordings for a living, but when you're 21 RICK GREENHUT: or 22, it's kind of a neat job to have for a couple of years. RICK GREENHUT: I always knew I wanted to be in sales and marketing, and I started to reach

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RICK GREENHUT: out, went to work for a couple of radio stations, and then was hired away RICK GREENHUT: by a company called Arbitron, which at the time was the only radio measurement RICK GREENHUT: service in the US. RICK GREENHUT: They were later bought out by the Nielsen folks.

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RICK GREENHUT: So Arbitron moved me to New York, where I lived for the next 30 years. RICK GREENHUT: Worked for Arbitron. RICK GREENHUT: Ironically, went to work again for the NBC Radio Network, only this time in New RICK GREENHUT: York. Spent seven years there, went to another broadcasting

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RICK GREENHUT: company, Westinghouse Broadcasting. RICK GREENHUT: Spent a number of years there, then worked for a number of radio syndicators like RICK GREENHUT: Westwood One and Premiere, people who offered ad hoc pro RICK GREENHUT: programming to radio stations, either in exchange for the clearance of

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RICK GREENHUT: commercials or cash. RICK GREENHUT: So, in a nutshell, that's really my background. RICK GREENHUT: I was lucky in that as a broadcasting major with a minor in RICK GREENHUT: business, all of my professors said, "if you can't

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RICK GREENHUT: find a summer job in this industry before you graduate school, you're RICK GREENHUT: probably going to end up selling shoes." That was the that was the quote. RICK GREENHUT: And ironically, last year, a year before, no, last year we had a RICK GREENHUT: 50 year reunion for my broadcasting graduating

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RICK GREENHUT: class. And of 50 people, there were nine of us who were still in RICK GREENHUT: the business. RICK GREENHUT: The good news is no one was selling shoes. RICK GREENHUT: Or if they were, they weren't admitting to it.

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RICK GREENHUT: But it it it is an industry that is not RICK GREENHUT: like most others in the way they recruit and hire and churn RICK GREENHUT: people through. RICK GREENHUT: So all of my experience really has been in that

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RICK GREENHUT: field. At NBC, I learned far more about the news RICK GREENHUT: business than I expected to. RICK GREENHUT: One overview I wanted to share, because as I was thinking about how I would RICK GREENHUT: encapsulate that, I remember being surprised at how

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RICK GREENHUT: conservative personally the newscasters at the radio network RICK GREENHUT: were. They struggled to be RICK GREENHUT: objective, and the way they did that made me think RICK GREENHUT: they were probably liberal by nature, and nothing could be further

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RICK GREENHUT: from the truth as it turned out. RICK GREENHUT: I got to know a number of them very well, they were guests in my home, we had them RICK GREENHUT: over for dinner, and they were people for whom RICK GREENHUT: news was kind of a religion.

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RICK GREENHUT: They felt they were prostituting their talents by only doing a six minute newscast RICK GREENHUT: every hour, because that wasn't nearly enough to keep America informed. RICK GREENHUT: So the thought of someone not getting the facts RICK GREENHUT: right was like an obscenity in their church.

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RICK GREENHUT: So that that mindset sort of opened my eyes because I'd never seen a RICK GREENHUT: network newsroom in action, and I never realized how little RICK GREENHUT: day-to-day oversight that the management had over RICK GREENHUT: what the stories were that were covered and how they were presented.

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RICK GREENHUT: I'd sit in in the morning news meetings, and sometimes we'd have to have them with the TV RICK GREENHUT: people as well, because we had some people who work both RICK GREENHUT: for NBC news television, as well as the RICK GREENHUT: NBC Radio Network.

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RICK GREENHUT: And there was always agreement, "well, here are the top three stories. RICK GREENHUT: Which ones will we lead with? RICK GREENHUT: Who's got our local reporter who can, you know, show us boots on the RICK GREENHUT: ground?" But no one said, I want you to spin it

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RICK GREENHUT: this way or I want you to do it this way. RICK GREENHUT: It was all a struggle for RICK GREENHUT: objectivity. They didn't always succeed, but that was their base RICK GREENHUT: premise. And so on the day-to-day basis, there wasn't a lot

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RICK GREENHUT: of upper management interference in how a story was covered because everyone was there, RICK GREENHUT: because they were at the top of their field. RICK GREENHUT: and and it was, there can be there can be honest RICK GREENHUT: disagreements but if you look at the three broadcast

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RICK GREENHUT: networks that still do a nightly newscast, which these days RICK GREENHUT: skews very old, you'll find the top three stories are the same. RICK GREENHUT: And it's not because it's any kind of collusion, it's because professionals in the RICK GREENHUT: news business deemed, these are the three things that American needs to know

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RICK GREENHUT: about. That's RICK GREENHUT: really the 50,000 foot view of the RICK GREENHUT: broadcast business in general and the news business in particular, which I RICK GREENHUT: really came to love because some of those people wouldn't spread

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RICK GREENHUT: office gossip unless they had two independent sources. RICK GREENHUT: It was just in their DNA that it's not a fact until we can RICK GREENHUT: corroborate it. RICK GREENHUT: And I found that both heartening and surprising.

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BRIANNA THOMPSON: Yes, that's definitely some interesting insight. BRIANNA THOMPSON: So thank you for that. BRIANNA THOMPSON: You've started to touch on something that I wanted to cover which is how these BRIANNA THOMPSON: mass media outlets and reporters get their raw information for producing these stories.

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BRIANNA THOMPSON: Can you talk a little bit about that? RICK GREENHUT: Absolutely. There would be, there were, I guess you'd say there were RICK GREENHUT: three sort of streams that would feed into what a newsroom would be RICK GREENHUT: choosing between.

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RICK GREENHUT: One of which was the back then there were two wire services, United Press RICK GREENHUT: International and the Associated Press. RICK GREENHUT: They had literally thousands of reporters all over the world and a RICK GREENHUT: great reputation for doing high quality print journalism.

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RICK GREENHUT: More, more, more reporting than journalism. RICK GREENHUT: They didn't put it in a context for Americans to RICK GREENHUT: understand. No one said, here's why what's happening in the Horn of Africa RICK GREENHUT: will affect how the price of gasoline for your car is going to go up in the next

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RICK GREENHUT: two weeks. But they they'd give you who, what, when, where, why RICK GREENHUT: for an event and then leave it to local newsrooms to put that in the larger RICK GREENHUT: context. So you had the wire services, you'd have RICK GREENHUT: the station or network's reporters

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RICK GREENHUT: who were kind of the first line of defense for anything that was local or RICK GREENHUT: regional. And then you had what we used to call RICK GREENHUT: data that came in over the transom. RICK GREENHUT: You would have information that would come from various sources that ranged

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RICK GREENHUT: from blatantly press releases to very high quality, somewhat RICK GREENHUT: esoteric information that had been dumbed down for a 12th grade RICK GREENHUT: education level. RICK GREENHUT: There was one story I came across in the Washington Post about four

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RICK GREENHUT: days ago, which was a really great example of kind of RICK GREENHUT: an elevated press release. RICK GREENHUT: It had to do with the availability of low cost, high quality hearing RICK GREENHUT: aids, since it was now legal to purchase such things outside a doctor's

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RICK GREENHUT: office. And the disseminator for that story was RICK GREENHUT: it's called KFF Health News, but it used to be called Kaiser Health RICK GREENHUT: News. And it's a very highly respected group of RICK GREENHUT: journalists who work for Kaiser, which is a big health care

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RICK GREENHUT: company, but are editorially independent. RICK GREENHUT: They would love to do a juicy story on Kaiser if one came up. RICK GREENHUT: They are they are sort of kept out of the politics of it. RICK GREENHUT: And they have a very, very fine reputation among news people because these are

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RICK GREENHUT: people who take something fairly esoteric, like, "oh, you can now buy hearing aids over RICK GREENHUT: the counter" and make it apparent what that means to you as a RICK GREENHUT: consumer. It comes back to an overarching question, the difference between RICK GREENHUT: journalism and reporting.

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RICK GREENHUT: And that's key because the reporter on the scene will RICK GREENHUT: say, "At 11:59 this morning on RICK GREENHUT: Kenwood Road, a house had a gas leak and exploded." RICK GREENHUT: Now that's reporting.

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RICK GREENHUT: Journalism will be when the person back in the studio says, RICK GREENHUT: "Late this morning, the third in a series of gas RICK GREENHUT: leaks culminated in a house exploding. RICK GREENHUT: The local utility says a high pressure valve failed

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RICK GREENHUT: and they're taking steps." So one of them is just a recitation of the fact. RICK GREENHUT: The other provides a context that you as a consumer need to know RICK GREENHUT: about. And it's a key distinction, and I'm glad RICK GREENHUT: that the difference was brought up because it really makes a difference when you're

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RICK GREENHUT: seeing a story covered or hearing or reading how something RICK GREENHUT: happened. Is it mere reporting? RICK GREENHUT: Is it somehow using emotionally charged words RICK GREENHUT: to make you think the reporter wants you to think a certain way?

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RICK GREENHUT: Because that's not journalism either. RICK GREENHUT: And that gets into that hazy area where it's a RICK GREENHUT: judgment call. Did I use a word that was too emotionally charged? RICK GREENHUT: The number of times I saw reporters beat themselves up over that after the

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RICK GREENHUT: fact would stun you, but it makes you really happy that RICK GREENHUT: many of them recognize that, even if it's in the RICK GREENHUT: breach. And that's why news organizations or so-called news RICK GREENHUT: organizations that don't make those kinds of distinctions are the

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RICK GREENHUT: exception that proves the rule. RICK GREENHUT: So press releases. RICK GREENHUT: Kaiser health is kind of one positive extreme. RICK GREENHUT: The other end of the spectrum will be say once

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RICK GREENHUT: again, in the health care world, say it's a company that manufactures hearing aids. RICK GREENHUT: And they'll come up with a press release about a new low priced, high RICK GREENHUT: feature item that makes it sound like it's the best thing since sliced bread. RICK GREENHUT: It's actually been on the market for years, and all they've done is added a few new

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RICK GREENHUT: adjectives to the description. RICK GREENHUT: That's just puffery, and you kind of have to know the topic to RICK GREENHUT: really make sure you know when it's a true breakthrough and when it's just RICK GREENHUT: a blatant sales piece.

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BRIANNA THOMPSON: Yes, I think that's an important distinction. BRIANNA THOMPSON: Can you talk a little bit about citizen journalism and how BRIANNA THOMPSON: that has impacted reporting and just the newsroom in general? RICK GREENHUT: I'd be glad to because the citizen journalism is kind of a trigger

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RICK GREENHUT: turn for me, because, while it might not always look RICK GREENHUT: like it, journalism is a profession, and there are RICK GREENHUT: really no more citizen journalists than there are citizen surgeons. RICK GREENHUT: You go to school to learn how to hide your prejudices

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RICK GREENHUT: when covering a story. RICK GREENHUT: Unless you are by nature a clinically objective person, a RICK GREENHUT: citizen journalist is often, either purposely or inadvertently, going to RICK GREENHUT: cover a story that leads you to believe a certain thing that a

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RICK GREENHUT: close examination of the facts might not support. RICK GREENHUT: So the one thing about citizen journalism that's RICK GREENHUT: so positive, I think of the Rodney King case in Los Angeles. RICK GREENHUT: Until everyone started walking around with, in effect, a video camera in their

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RICK GREENHUT: pocket. You were really at the mercy of any organization who said RICK GREENHUT: "we were there and here's what happened," and it was your word against RICK GREENHUT: them if you felt that wasn't what occurred. RICK GREENHUT: Rodney King showed the LA police to be lying.

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RICK GREENHUT: It showed them to be brutal and it caused a sea RICK GREENHUT: change in the way that organizations chose to release RICK GREENHUT: information or not release, as the case may be. RICK GREENHUT: Nothing's perfect because just a few years later

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RICK GREENHUT: in Minneapolis, you had another huge miscarriage of justice. RICK GREENHUT: But that's documented on camera and the people involved in that went to RICK GREENHUT: jail. That's where a citizen journalist really makes a difference. RICK GREENHUT: They didn't really do a story, they documented an

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RICK GREENHUT: event without any editorializing. RICK GREENHUT: That kind of citizen journalism contributes to RICK GREENHUT: democracy. Someone doing a blog about here's what RICK GREENHUT: happened, and they put their own spin on it that's just as bad

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RICK GREENHUT: as a puff piece from a manufacturer. RICK GREENHUT: It's misleading and it it potentially does real damage. BRIANNA THOMPSON: I think those are very good points so thank you for bringing those up. BRIANNA THOMPSON: Something you started to touch on a little bit was the change in

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BRIANNA THOMPSON: reporting and newsrooms since kind of pre-video-cameras, BRIANNA THOMPSON: pre-iPhones-in-everybody's-pocket. So can you talk a little bit about how media BRIANNA THOMPSON: companies have changed their approach to reporting and disseminating BRIANNA THOMPSON: information from before the time of those video cameras to

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BRIANNA THOMPSON: today, when everybody has got at least one iPhone in their pocket at all times. RICK GREENHUT: I probably have more notes on that than anything else because w RICK GREENHUT: hen there were just three television broadcast networks, RICK GREENHUT: they made what even their owners would admit were unconscionable

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RICK GREENHUT: profits, and it was probably put best by William RICK GREENHUT: Paley, who started CBS. RICK GREENHUT: He was the rich scion of a cigar company magnate RICK GREENHUT: in Philadelphia who decided to get into this new thing called

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RICK GREENHUT: radio, and that grew into what was the Columbia RICK GREENHUT: Broadcasting System, and it is now CBS. RICK GREENHUT: Bill Paley thought that a really high quality RICK GREENHUT: news operation is his way of giving back, for

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RICK GREENHUT: keeping $0.60 out of every dollar that they that the advertisers gave him. RICK GREENHUT: They made huge profits and this is how we give back. RICK GREENHUT: We're going to provide - he called it the, the Platinum RICK GREENHUT: Network. He said, "CBS is going to have the best of everything." So he hired

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RICK GREENHUT: Edward R Murrow, who, during World War Two, had gained fame RICK GREENHUT: through a radio series he did called "This Is London." RICK GREENHUT: During the London Blitz, when the Germans were bombing London, he would broadcast live RICK GREENHUT: from a rooftop as you could hear the bombs in the background.

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RICK GREENHUT: It it was both journalism and reporting mixed in one and it RICK GREENHUT: was, it was great because a lot of those people came out of the RICK GREENHUT: newspaper business where they learned how to not bury the lead, and they RICK GREENHUT: learned how to structure a paragraph.

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RICK GREENHUT: And that really led itself to radio scripts and later TV scripts. RICK GREENHUT: So the newsrooms were viewing news as a loss leader. RICK GREENHUT: You don't have to make money. RICK GREENHUT: Over at NBC, a guy named Pat

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RICK GREENHUT: Weaver - Sigourney Weaver's father - was the head of broadcast RICK GREENHUT: programming, and he came up with the idea of three daily RICK GREENHUT: programs. Today, RICK GREENHUT: Tonight and Home.

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RICK GREENHUT: Home was a midday program that lasted about a minute and a half, but the RICK GREENHUT: Today Show and the Tonight Show are still going in very much the RICK GREENHUT: same formats they started with. RICK GREENHUT: The Today Show used to be managed by the news department and not

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RICK GREENHUT: NBC Entertainment, and there was a RICK GREENHUT: newsman at a desk in the studio who did headlines every 5 RICK GREENHUT: to 7 minutes based upon breaking stories. RICK GREENHUT: And they had entertainment and they had they had silly things.

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RICK GREENHUT: The first first host of the Today Show was a Chicago disc RICK GREENHUT: jockey named Dave Garroway. RICK GREENHUT: Dave had a monkey called J Fred Muggs who would run around the RICK GREENHUT: studio. I mean, it was it was great journalism and stupid in the same

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RICK GREENHUT: 30-second period. RICK GREENHUT: But that was the Today Show, and that too was not considered RICK GREENHUT: entertainment, but a loss leader. RICK GREENHUT: This is going to cost us a lot of money, but it will show that we're committed

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RICK GREENHUT: to informing people. RICK GREENHUT: What do they need to know to go through their day? RICK GREENHUT: Radio, where I spent the majority of my career. RICK GREENHUT: It used to be mandated that every radio station

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RICK GREENHUT: had to do X number of hours a week of RICK GREENHUT: news, either with local newscasts or carrying a network RICK GREENHUT: newscast. A kind of an odd thing in the broadcasting RICK GREENHUT: business. People collect tapes of old radio stations and what they sounded

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RICK GREENHUT: like. And prior to this zoom RICK GREENHUT: meeting, I was going through some of them I have downstairs and one of the RICK GREENHUT: things that jumped out at me is listening to the tape of a rock and roll station in RICK GREENHUT: 1968. I hear things like

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RICK GREENHUT: "Robert Kennedy was shot." I hear things like the My Lai RICK GREENHUT: massacre in Vietnam, and we were listening to rock and roll music, RICK GREENHUT: but we had to hear a 4 or 5 minute newscast every hour or every other hour. RICK GREENHUT: So we were in touch with facts, whether we wanted to be or not.

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RICK GREENHUT: That changed in the late 80s where stations were no longer RICK GREENHUT: mandated to carry news and a lot of local newsrooms RICK GREENHUT: disappeared. And ironically, at the same time, a new radio RICK GREENHUT: format was born of All-News.

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RICK GREENHUT: Every major market has an all-news radio station. RICK GREENHUT: What's interesting, I don't have the 2023 numbers yet, but in RICK GREENHUT: 2022 of the top five radio stations in America, RICK GREENHUT: three of them were all-news stations.

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RICK GREENHUT: So people only listen to an all news station for 15 or RICK GREENHUT: 18 minutes. In fact, the the Westinghouse Station in in New RICK GREENHUT: York, which at one time was the most listened to radio station in America, their RICK GREENHUT: slogan was, "Give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world." You're

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RICK GREENHUT: stuck in the car in a 30 minute commute, and the news is basically an updated RICK GREENHUT: loop. In 22 minutes, you can get news, sports, and weather with both a RICK GREENHUT: national and a local twist to them. RICK GREENHUT: And that's hugely important.

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RICK GREENHUT: Media companies have stopped looking at news as a loss leader. RICK GREENHUT: All of them now have news shows, in RICK GREENHUT: many cases under the entertainment division, like the Today Show, RICK GREENHUT: where you better be bringing in the cost of producing it,

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RICK GREENHUT: plus a premium. RICK GREENHUT: CBS used to have this wonderful division that RICK GREENHUT: did documentaries. RICK GREENHUT: And there was, as esoteric as what ever happened to

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RICK GREENHUT: Tokyo Rose, the Japanese woman who RICK GREENHUT: broadcast propaganda in English to American troops during World War RICK GREENHUT: Two in the Pacific. RICK GREENHUT: They would cover things like that that people found interesting that no

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RICK GREENHUT: sponsor would sponsor and not all stations even carried, RICK GREENHUT: but it was part of the concept of giving back. RICK GREENHUT: Newsrooms today are very different places. RICK GREENHUT: They're very aware of the bottom line.

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RICK GREENHUT: They are concerned that they cover the news, but RICK GREENHUT: not do something that will get the legal department camping out outside their RICK GREENHUT: office. That didn't used to be RICK GREENHUT: as big a concern.

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RICK GREENHUT: News directors used to say, "Well, that's the story. RICK GREENHUT: I don't care if this big oil company is sponsoring the nightly news. RICK GREENHUT: Their tanker just destroyed a RICK GREENHUT: pristine bay in Alaska because the captain was drunk.

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RICK GREENHUT: That's a legitimate news story, and I don't want to hear the sales department or the RICK GREENHUT: legal department tell me we have to change it or soft pedal it in any way." RICK GREENHUT: It's about only the legal department today that would go into a RICK GREENHUT: newsroom and say, "you can't really say this because X."

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RICK GREENHUT: And sometimes the news people will listen and sometimes they won't. RICK GREENHUT: It's, it's kind of a gut reaction. RICK GREENHUT: One of the questions that kind of spins off of RICK GREENHUT: this, the public preference for the way they ingest information

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RICK GREENHUT: has changed so much and is changing on a daily basis. RICK GREENHUT: I still look at a lot of the broadcast trade magazines and RICK GREENHUT: there's really been a sea change in the last few years as broadcasters have RICK GREENHUT: belatedly realized, broadcast news isn't the first

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RICK GREENHUT: choice for news dissemination in people RICK GREENHUT: in the 25 to 34 demographic, where the majority of advertiser RICK GREENHUT: dollars get spent. RICK GREENHUT: It's a reality that they're going to be getting information

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RICK GREENHUT: from blogs and various social media RICK GREENHUT: posts and, inadvertently, they're going to live in a RICK GREENHUT: silo of stuff they want to see and hear from people who look and RICK GREENHUT: sound like them.

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RICK GREENHUT: And it's a it's a seductive process. RICK GREENHUT: It's easy to get pulled into something and realize I'm really only hearing one RICK GREENHUT: voice here, and most people don't care. RICK GREENHUT: They don't really want to hear competing voices.

00:24:26.350 - 00:24:42.640

RICK GREENHUT: That's a complex subject, and I'd rather have someone I trust tell me what I should RICK GREENHUT: think about it. RICK GREENHUT: That's how democracies are lost - when people no longer want RICK GREENHUT: to do the hard work of figuring out, "well, is that really objective?

00:24:42.640 - 00:24:59.950

RICK GREENHUT: Is that really what happened." When I listened to a citizen journalist or RICK GREENHUT: somebody bloviating on a blog or some cable news RICK GREENHUT: network, I already have a pretty good idea of where that person is coming RICK GREENHUT: from. None of them pretend to be objective.

00:25:00.790 - 00:25:20.430

RICK GREENHUT: And that's a problem because I like to decide for myself. BRIANNA THOMPSON: I think you brought up a topic that I think we should go a little bit more in BRIANNA THOMPSON: depth in, which is social media. BRIANNA THOMPSON: And because so many people are getting information off of

00:25:20.430 - 00:25:37.500

BRIANNA THOMPSON: social media now and there's perhaps misinformation being BRIANNA THOMPSON: shared also that affects people's perceptions of news. BRIANNA THOMPSON: How has social media and that ingestion of social media BRIANNA THOMPSON: changed news networks' approach to sharing news?

00:25:38.040 - 00:25:50.310

BRIANNA THOMPSON: And do you think that we will see a shift from BRIANNA THOMPSON: TV broadcast and articles to social-media-based dissemination in the BRIANNA THOMPSON: future? RICK GREENHUT: Oh, I definitely think it's heading in that direction.

00:25:51.360 - 00:26:08.130

RICK GREENHUT: A harbinger of things to come is what's happened in the newspaper RICK GREENHUT: business. I still get a paper newspaper as well as having an RICK GREENHUT: electronic subscription because I'm an old guy and I'm used to RICK GREENHUT: getting ink on my hands during breakfast.

00:26:08.340 - 00:26:25.320

RICK GREENHUT: That's the exception rather than the rule. RICK GREENHUT: While newspapers are still profitable in many cases, RICK GREENHUT: they're down to what in the old days would be considered a skeleton staff. RICK GREENHUT: You know, instead of 150 people in the newsroom or 90 people in the

00:26:25.320 - 00:26:43.550

RICK GREENHUT: newsroom, you have 26 people in the newsroom still covering a RICK GREENHUT: metropolis, still interpreting national and international stories for RICK GREENHUT: your local populace. RICK GREENHUT: And it's a lot easier for people to go to blogs and go

00:26:43.550 - 00:27:00.620

RICK GREENHUT: to that kind of electronic dissemination. RICK GREENHUT: You're giving up the potential for objectivity on the part of the reporter RICK GREENHUT: for ease of getting the information and a timely RICK GREENHUT: dissemination of the information.

00:27:00.620 - 00:27:14.240

RICK GREENHUT: I don't have to wait for a newscast at the top of the hour. RICK GREENHUT: I don't have to wait for the newspaper to hit my my front step. RICK GREENHUT: I don't have to wait for the 6:00 news. RICK GREENHUT: Something just happened and I can find out using my phone.

00:27:14.690 - 00:27:29.030

RICK GREENHUT: For news junkies, that's tremendously seductive. RICK GREENHUT: But therein lies the problem. RICK GREENHUT: What source you use is going to be very, very important in how you RICK GREENHUT: interpret the effect of that story on your daily life.

00:27:31.650 - 00:27:39.030

RICK GREENHUT: Kind of a long-winded answer. RICK GREENHUT: I'm sorry, but. BRIANNA THOMPSON: No, no. That's good. BRIANNA THOMPSON: So where does that leave the traditional news outlets that we see?

00:27:39.450 - 00:27:51.570

BRIANNA THOMPSON: Newspapers, broadcasting companies? BRIANNA THOMPSON: Are they going to shift their stories to be more immediately BRIANNA THOMPSON: available online? RICK GREENHUT: The good ones already have.

00:27:51.840 - 00:28:05.700

RICK GREENHUT: For example, my wife, who's only two years younger than I am, reads the RICK GREENHUT: Washington Post on her computer while I'm physically RICK GREENHUT: reading the paper part of it. RICK GREENHUT: Just because those are the habits we've developed.

00:28:06.780 - 00:28:24.570

RICK GREENHUT: The day will come the option isn't going to exist to have it on paper, RICK GREENHUT: but magazines like "The New Yorker," "New York RICK GREENHUT: Magazine," newspapers like "The Post" and "The Times," they've created RICK GREENHUT: paywalls that allow you, for a very reasonable amount of money, to

00:28:24.570 - 00:28:43.770

RICK GREENHUT: get high quality journalism and in-depth reporting RICK GREENHUT: that wouldn't necessarily make it into a network newscast or a printed RICK GREENHUT: newspaper. So looking down the road, RICK GREENHUT: I see a smattering of all news radio stations left because

00:28:43.770 - 00:29:02.510

RICK GREENHUT: you can't watch TV in your car, and it's a lot easier to RICK GREENHUT: tune to the all-news station, knowing I can get a digested RICK GREENHUT: story about what's going on immediately and get updates RICK GREENHUT: without trying to futz with my phone, and not rear end the car in front of me.

00:29:02.780 - 00:29:19.040

RICK GREENHUT: So they'll always be all-news radio stations. RICK GREENHUT: Newspapers will go from being a paper RICK GREENHUT: object to being a brand. RICK GREENHUT: "The LA Times," "The Chicago Tribune," "The Washington Post," "The New York Times,"

00:29:19.040 - 00:29:33.320

RICK GREENHUT: those are established brands. RICK GREENHUT: They have Pulitzer Prizes on shelves that stretch off into the distance, RICK GREENHUT: showing their commitment to journalism. RICK GREENHUT: It's worth paying $100 a year to get the access to

00:29:33.320 - 00:29:52.130

RICK GREENHUT: that kind of information. RICK GREENHUT: And lazy people will continue to get it from blogs RICK GREENHUT: from sources that already echo their, I won't RICK GREENHUT: say prejudices, that already echo their feelings about who's right and who's wrong.

00:29:52.640 - 00:30:06.950

RICK GREENHUT: And therein lies the danger. RICK GREENHUT: The the beauty of the internet was it was going to make information available RICK GREENHUT: instantaneously, but no one stopped to think how hard it was going to be to RICK GREENHUT: separate the wheat from the chaff.

00:30:06.950 - 00:30:19.010

RICK GREENHUT: What's real information? RICK GREENHUT: What's propaganda? RICK GREENHUT: What's some Russian blogger who's paid to make RICK GREENHUT: me disbelieve or distrust something that I'm being

00:30:19.280 - 00:30:34.270

RICK GREENHUT: told? How do I differentiate? RICK GREENHUT: I don't think enough people are critical about how they're getting their RICK GREENHUT: information, but I think there's really no question RICK GREENHUT: what we call mass media will continue to fragment.

00:30:35.380 - 00:30:49.480

RICK GREENHUT: And instead of there just being three televised ways of RICK GREENHUT: getting your news at 6:00 at night, there's already a thousand different ways to RICK GREENHUT: get any kind of news you want around the clock. RICK GREENHUT: So how do you choose?

00:30:49.510 - 00:31:07.510

RICK GREENHUT: Well, your friend says, oh, I heard this on on such and such. RICK GREENHUT: Or there's this great thing on Substack about this guy who really RICK GREENHUT: knows that there are aliens at Area 51. RICK GREENHUT: You know, whatever you want to know about and however you want it spun, is somebody who

00:31:07.510 - 00:31:23.650

RICK GREENHUT: is already making a buck doing that very thing. RICK GREENHUT: So we need to be savvy consumers. RICK GREENHUT: But when you look at the research, and I worked seven years at a research RICK GREENHUT: company, so I sort of instinctively want to take a look at what the age

00:31:23.650 - 00:31:42.290

RICK GREENHUT: groups are of people doing this kind of thing. RICK GREENHUT: All you have to do is watch any TV newscast, RICK GREENHUT: even a CNN, and you'll see ads for geriatric-aimed RICK GREENHUT: products. It's it's people like me in their 70s who

00:31:42.290 - 00:32:01.180

RICK GREENHUT: are always watching that and who've learned to trust RICK GREENHUT: the entities that provide those sorts of newscasts. RICK GREENHUT: CNN, Fox, MSNBC, you can run down the list of RICK GREENHUT: various cable outlets that,

00:32:01.180 - 00:32:18.980

RICK GREENHUT: too, have shrinking and aging audiences as more and more younger RICK GREENHUT: people cut the cable and no longer literally have cable coming to their RICK GREENHUT: house or apartment, and they're getting what they want to see and RICK GREENHUT: consume on their phones, or on their their iPads, or on their

00:32:18.980 - 00:32:37.880

RICK GREENHUT: laptops. So the time is coming RICK GREENHUT: when the problem won't be the availability of instant information. RICK GREENHUT: It will be making sense between the plethora of sources as to what it RICK GREENHUT: is that I want to know, and my

00:32:37.880 - 00:32:52.280

RICK GREENHUT: age is going to tell me which way I'm going to go. RICK GREENHUT: If if I'm younger, I'm going to be more concerned about climate RICK GREENHUT: change. You know, if, if if you're my age it's RICK GREENHUT: a concern, but it's an academic one.

00:32:52.280 - 00:33:11.060

RICK GREENHUT: I don't have kids, so I'm not worried about what my grandchildren are going to live with. RICK GREENHUT: If you're 22 years old, it's a it's a significant issue RICK GREENHUT: that you and your peers are concerned about. RICK GREENHUT: And the people who cover that in a way that you feel is sensitive to

00:33:11.060 - 00:33:30.360

RICK GREENHUT: your concerns are going to be deemed more trustworthy, sort of instinctively RICK GREENHUT: by you when they're covering other things. RICK GREENHUT: Kind of a roundabout answer, I'm afraid, but. BRIANNA THOMPSON: No, that it's a useful answer, so do you have any tips

00:33:30.360 - 00:33:46.150

BRIANNA THOMPSON: for media consumers for discerning a more objective BRIANNA THOMPSON: truthfulness when faced with all of these conflicting viewpoints on BRIANNA THOMPSON: news? RICK GREENHUT: Yeah. In in fact, I had this discussion several years

00:33:46.150 - 00:34:06.640

RICK GREENHUT: ago with one of your advisors who asked me that very question. RICK GREENHUT: And I said I would go to the entities that have RICK GREENHUT: demonstrably the most extreme partisan viewpoints. RICK GREENHUT: Look how Fox covers the story versus how MSNBC covers the

00:34:06.640 - 00:34:27.490

RICK GREENHUT: story. In your mind remove the inflammatory language RICK GREENHUT: and see what the facts seem to be. RICK GREENHUT: And when you get around the editorializing, you'll RICK GREENHUT: say, "all right, here's what happened, or here's what this presidential candidate

00:34:27.490 - 00:34:45.470

RICK GREENHUT: said." Now, I want to go to see what other popular RICK GREENHUT: sources cover that in a way that just say, here's what the guy said. RICK GREENHUT: You really only have to do that once you sit and make a comparison RICK GREENHUT: over some story that's going to last for a couple of

00:34:45.470 - 00:35:03.270

RICK GREENHUT: days, and you watch how it's handled on one of the broadcast RICK GREENHUT: networks, on 2 or 3 of the cable RICK GREENHUT: entities, and you say, "What's the Venn diagram? RICK GREENHUT: What's the overlap?" And the overlap in the center are very

00:35:03.270 - 00:35:20.300

RICK GREENHUT: likely the facts and only the facts. RICK GREENHUT: So which of the sources came the closest to the facts with a minimum of RICK GREENHUT: editorializing? Once you've done that, you will find as time goes RICK GREENHUT: on, if you dip back in and make that comparison again, it becomes

00:35:20.300 - 00:35:34.160

RICK GREENHUT: easier and quicker to see, yeah, I picked the right outlet for RICK GREENHUT: my view of the world. RICK GREENHUT: It's easier said than done. BRIANNA THOMPSON: It certainly is, but we can all strive for that.

00:35:36.110 - 00:35:55.010

BRIANNA THOMPSON: Circling back a little bit to how we were talking BRIANNA THOMPSON: about how the younger generation is looking for instant news, how BRIANNA THOMPSON: can news agencies balance the need for timely reporting of information BRIANNA THOMPSON: , especially when there's demand for instant knowledge, with the need

00:35:55.010 - 00:36:14.000

BRIANNA THOMPSON: for accuracy? Because obviously stories evolve, knowledge evolves. BRIANNA THOMPSON: And especially since some stories evolve over BRIANNA THOMPSON: time, over a longer period of time, and later facts may contradict BRIANNA THOMPSON: earlier data, how can the media approach reporting in a way that satisfies the public

00:36:14.000 - 00:36:30.580

BRIANNA THOMPSON: without breeding distrust? RICK GREENHUT: It's an excellent question, if my answer ends up sounding RICK GREENHUT: glib, it's only because this isn't another thing I made a lot of notes about. RICK GREENHUT: When I was with the NBC Radio Network, one of the

00:36:30.580 - 00:36:50.910

RICK GREENHUT: newspeople had taped up in his cubicle this line. RICK GREENHUT: It says "get it first, but first get it right." RICK GREENHUT: And everybody in the news business in the first and second generation of the broadcast RICK GREENHUT: world either came from a print background or it had their

00:36:50.910 - 00:37:06.050

RICK GREENHUT: view of the scoop mentality RICK GREENHUT: affected by movies like "Front Page," where everybody's RICK GREENHUT: running in saying, "Stop the presses! RICK GREENHUT: I have the latest story." And the only way to disseminate news was somebody selling a

00:37:06.050 - 00:37:19.180

RICK GREENHUT: newspaper on a corner. RICK GREENHUT: The scoop mentality still exists, so people want to be the first covering RICK GREENHUT: something. I've never thought the consumer particularly cared RICK GREENHUT: which of my news outlets got the story first.

00:37:19.930 - 00:37:37.690

RICK GREENHUT: I'm more concerned about which one doesn't have to do it retraction afterwards because RICK GREENHUT: they were in such a hurry they got the facts wrong. RICK GREENHUT: The scoop mentality is a real danger, RICK GREENHUT: but also this human nature that doesn't make you want to admit

00:37:37.690 - 00:37:55.980

RICK GREENHUT: a mistake. Retractions in the New York Times are RICK GREENHUT: always printed in some little tiny box in the corner. RICK GREENHUT: It may be on the front page, it may be on the editorial page, but it's in like two RICK GREENHUT: point type. As if they're sort of grudgingly, grudgingly

00:37:55.980 - 00:38:12.970

RICK GREENHUT: saying, "Yeah, I got that wrong. RICK GREENHUT: And here are the facts. Sorry." RICK GREENHUT: It's something people have to get better at because when you're covering an RICK GREENHUT: evolving story, if you have three reporters on the ground and they all say

00:38:12.970 - 00:38:32.100

RICK GREENHUT: 16 people were shot, and then two hours later, the police say RICK GREENHUT: "on closer examination, only six people were shot and five RICK GREENHUT: people had hysterics and two people were just making it up." It doesn't RICK GREENHUT: mean you are wrong, it just means you are duty bound

00:38:32.100 - 00:38:45.840

RICK GREENHUT: to correct the record as time goes on. RICK GREENHUT: And that sort of ties into what was happening during Covid. RICK GREENHUT: The general population doesn't view science as a constantly RICK GREENHUT: evolving entity.

00:38:46.140 - 00:39:02.620

RICK GREENHUT: It's like there are these seismic seismic shifts RICK GREENHUT: where we thought the Earth was flat and now we know the Earth was round. RICK GREENHUT: Well, there are very few big chasms between a RICK GREENHUT: misunderstanding and a later understanding.

00:39:03.290 - 00:39:20.360

RICK GREENHUT: Mostly, it's a matter of degrees. RICK GREENHUT: So, like in Covid, do you err on the side of saying everybody RICK GREENHUT: needs a mask and then say nobody needs a mask? RICK GREENHUT: Well, both observations were based on the best knowledge at the

00:39:20.360 - 00:39:36.260

RICK GREENHUT: time, which in some cases was superseded within RICK GREENHUT: days or weeks by new and better knowledge. RICK GREENHUT: People say, "Well, look, they obviously don't know. RICK GREENHUT: First they said X, now they say Y." Yeah, that's right.

00:39:36.260 - 00:39:51.600

RICK GREENHUT: It doesn't mean they were willfully wrong. RICK GREENHUT: It just meant at the time the data seemed to say this, and now with more RICK GREENHUT: data, it turns out it says that. RICK GREENHUT: And it's a real problem because it breeds media

00:39:52.020 - 00:40:09.860

RICK GREENHUT: mistrust. And especially when you RICK GREENHUT: talk about the coverage of scientific facts, it's particularly RICK GREENHUT: concerning because if you ever read any congressional RICK GREENHUT: transcripts having anything to do with, say, the internet,

00:40:09.860 - 00:40:24.870

RICK GREENHUT: most of those people couldn't pass a middle school science RICK GREENHUT: class. You listen to them talk about the internet RICK GREENHUT: and it's embarrassing. RICK GREENHUT: You listen to them talk about things like CO2 in the

00:40:24.870 - 00:40:41.660

RICK GREENHUT: atmosphere and they are, they are so far beyond RICK GREENHUT: their competence level and yet they're making decisions and they're probably pretty RICK GREENHUT: typical of their constituents. RICK GREENHUT: And that's one of the things we have to grudgingly accept: the people we send to

00:40:41.660 - 00:40:59.620

RICK GREENHUT: Washington or our local statehouses are very much RICK GREENHUT: like us, and they want to mirror what their constituents RICK GREENHUT: think and feel because they get reelected. RICK GREENHUT: But it it's, it's disturbing when it comes to scientific

00:40:59.620 - 00:41:18.520

RICK GREENHUT: facts, because some things can't be dumbed down and some things RICK GREENHUT: can't be explained in a 25 words or less fashion. RICK GREENHUT: There's a, there's a concern right now over a case RICK GREENHUT: that's going to be in the Supreme Court about whether

00:41:18.520 - 00:41:41.210

RICK GREENHUT: government agencies that have subject matter experts RICK GREENHUT: can interpret a law better than the Supreme Court justices. RICK GREENHUT: It's disturbing to think that a group of lawyers RICK GREENHUT: in black robes are going to say, "Yeah, we don't care what the experts in

00:41:41.210 - 00:41:57.110

RICK GREENHUT: the Department of Energy think. RICK GREENHUT: Here's what we think." And that's wrong. RICK GREENHUT: When I hear, when I hear a sports figure say, "Well, RICK GREENHUT: I'm not getting my Covid shot and here's why," I'm pretty

00:41:57.110 - 00:42:15.720

RICK GREENHUT: sure this guy didn't have a degree in immunology, he doesn't have a RICK GREENHUT: medical degree, and his opinion is just that: his RICK GREENHUT: opinion. And we tend to look at celebrities in our country as RICK GREENHUT: somehow being all knowing outside their their

00:42:16.140 - 00:42:33.770

RICK GREENHUT: subject matter expertise. RICK GREENHUT: I don't really want to listen to Robert F Kennedy Jr talk about how autism RICK GREENHUT: is caused by smallpox vaccinations because he's RICK GREENHUT: not qualified to make a decision like that and people with medical

00:42:33.770 - 00:42:44.390

RICK GREENHUT: degrees say he's wrong. RICK GREENHUT: And you know what? RICK GREENHUT: I'll go with the people who have medical degrees. RICK GREENHUT: Once again, I don't want a citizen surgeon deciding something that's

00:42:44.390 - 00:43:01.750

RICK GREENHUT: at odds with what a real doctor says. BRIANNA THOMPSON: That's a great point for sure. BRIANNA THOMPSON: One thing that's a little bit related, I think, to the issue brought you brought BRIANNA THOMPSON: up is a lot of the public isn't necessarily educated about

00:43:01.750 - 00:43:14.530

BRIANNA THOMPSON: all the up and coming facts and stories that BRIANNA THOMPSON: need to be reported on. BRIANNA THOMPSON: If it's a scientific story, a lot of the public may not understand the intricacies of BRIANNA THOMPSON: that science. Maybe the reporters don't either.

00:43:15.610 - 00:43:35.230

BRIANNA THOMPSON: And obviously, news is a business, and sometimes BRIANNA THOMPSON: these new important studies are considered too boring or BRIANNA THOMPSON: maybe too complicated to understand to the public, so how can BRIANNA THOMPSON: reporters, media companies approach sharing information that isn't necessarily

00:43:35.230 - 00:43:51.220

BRIANNA THOMPSON: appealing to newsrooms or appealing to sell as a BRIANNA THOMPSON: story? RICK GREENHUT: There's no easy answer to your very reasonable question. RICK GREENHUT: It used to be, before the latest round of cutbacks,

00:43:53.510 - 00:44:09.670

RICK GREENHUT: both the traditional broadcast networks and a lot of the cable news networks had subject RICK GREENHUT: matter experts. RICK GREENHUT: I happen to have spent a lot of time with Miles O'Brien, who RICK GREENHUT: used to be the science reporter for CNN.

00:44:10.420 - 00:44:27.420

RICK GREENHUT: And Miles's issue was always RICK GREENHUT: trying to boil a scientific topic down to 25 words RICK GREENHUT: or less, and sometimes he felt he succeeded, RICK GREENHUT: sometimes he was sure he didn't.

00:44:27.420 - 00:44:42.790

RICK GREENHUT: But he understood enough to know it doesn't say this, RICK GREENHUT: it doesn't say what the guy on Fox News said, what it says is the RICK GREENHUT: following. I'm trying to think, there RICK GREENHUT: was an example.

00:44:42.790 - 00:45:01.110

RICK GREENHUT: I spent part of the morning looking for a memo I would have sworn I RICK GREENHUT: saved. A good friend of mine who was RICK GREENHUT: the, He was the Vice President of news for NBC radio when I was there. RICK GREENHUT: Our economic reporter was reporting on inflation

00:45:03.400 - 00:45:20.790

RICK GREENHUT: and she knew economics so well that she produced a 30 RICK GREENHUT: second report that only another economist could understand. RICK GREENHUT: And another economist would go, "Wow, she really gets it. RICK GREENHUT: She knows." And the rest of us were like, "I don't know what those words mean."

00:45:22.130 - 00:45:38.390

RICK GREENHUT: And his newscast was basically, I'm sorry, his his memo was RICK GREENHUT: basically "that story in that newscast failed RICK GREENHUT: because it's not about the consumer price index, RICK GREENHUT: or it's not about the percent increase in inflation.

00:45:39.350 - 00:45:57.770

RICK GREENHUT: It's about what those things mean to the cost of a bag of groceries RICK GREENHUT: or a gallon of gas." It doesn't really matter that you know all that stuff. RICK GREENHUT: None of us are impressed we were hired because you're expert - you were hired RICK GREENHUT: because your expertise is supposed to be taking those concepts and boiling them down

00:45:57.770 - 00:46:10.160

RICK GREENHUT: to pocketbook issues. RICK GREENHUT: It's all it all comes down to safety issues, pocketbook issues, RICK GREENHUT: climate issues. RICK GREENHUT: Everything can be boiled down to a couple of things that affect people.

00:46:10.610 - 00:46:27.500

RICK GREENHUT: If it doesn't affect people in some way, it's probably not a story. RICK GREENHUT: I mean, there there are all kinds of things to see on slow news days. RICK GREENHUT: Newspapers used to call the last three weeks of August "the silly RICK GREENHUT: season" because there was nothing.

00:46:27.500 - 00:46:40.280

RICK GREENHUT: Congress was out, local state legislatures were out, the weather was RICK GREENHUT: hot, and that was about it. RICK GREENHUT: So they'd be doing stupid stories about kids' lemonade stands or trying RICK GREENHUT: to cook eggs on the sidewalk.

00:46:40.280 - 00:46:55.590

RICK GREENHUT: That was the silly season. RICK GREENHUT: Sadly, we don't have a silly season RICK GREENHUT: anymore and we can't afford to have silly people RICK GREENHUT: we need. We need someone who can say, "here's why this story matters to

00:46:55.590 - 00:47:16.860

RICK GREENHUT: you." I'm always surprised when I'll see what's, RICK GREENHUT: frankly, a filler story about some potentially-inhabited RICK GREENHUT: planet circling a star 28 light years away from RICK GREENHUT: here. I happen to think that's really interesting but I

00:47:16.860 - 00:47:32.220

RICK GREENHUT: can't relate that to my day-to-day life. RICK GREENHUT: If I had kids, I can't relate that to my kids day-to-day life. RICK GREENHUT: So it's a nice story, but it's not really news. RICK GREENHUT: It's kind of entertainment.

00:47:32.220 - 00:47:50.140

RICK GREENHUT: It's kind of a a a puff piece. RICK GREENHUT: It's just, it's difficult because scientific facts can be RICK GREENHUT: boring but their effects on us are not. RICK GREENHUT: I listen to a meteorologist on one of the networks describe the atmospheric

00:47:50.140 - 00:48:08.280

RICK GREENHUT: river that was hitting Los Angeles. RICK GREENHUT: There is a really esoteric meteorological terms for RICK GREENHUT: "atmospheric river," but some really, really smart guy at the National RICK GREENHUT: Weather Service knew that nobody was going to understand what that was.

00:48:08.280 - 00:48:21.450

RICK GREENHUT: But to popularize it as atmospheric river, it's like this river is RICK GREENHUT: going to drop a ton of water on you folks, so you better prepare. RICK GREENHUT: That was genius. RICK GREENHUT: That took something and made it relatable.

00:48:21.450 - 00:48:38.450

RICK GREENHUT: And there's not enough translation of scientific facts into RICK GREENHUT: things like "atmospheric river." Once you hear that, you know exactly what it RICK GREENHUT: means. And now I'm listening, because if one of those is coming this way, I RICK GREENHUT: know it's time to build an ark in the back.

00:48:40.460 - 00:48:55.370

BRIANNA THOMPSON: Well, thank you for that insight. BRIANNA THOMPSON: My final question is kind of the latest thing that's BRIANNA THOMPSON: impacting people and journalists, and that's the subject of artificial intelligence. BRIANNA THOMPSON: So I'm pretty sure it's on everybody's mind.

00:48:55.370 - 00:49:10.370

BRIANNA THOMPSON: We've all seen the AI-generated articles, and now it's BRIANNA THOMPSON: gotten to the point where AI is generating really BRIANNA THOMPSON: legitimate-looking photographs and videos of things that look like they were BRIANNA THOMPSON: taken by real people.

00:49:10.370 - 00:49:30.890

BRIANNA THOMPSON: How is that going to impact news and the dissemination of BRIANNA THOMPSON: truthful information or misinformation? RICK GREENHUT: There's a great example that happened, it's close to a year ago now I think. RICK GREENHUT: It was revealed that Sports Illustrated magazine had had some magazine

00:49:30.890 - 00:49:47.610

RICK GREENHUT: pieces that were totally AI-generated. RICK GREENHUT: And ironically, when you think about it, for certain kinds of RICK GREENHUT: stories, it would be perfectly acceptable. RICK GREENHUT: If I'm looking at which team won or lost and how that affects its their

00:49:47.610 - 00:50:00.780

RICK GREENHUT: record and what their history is against the opposing team, RICK GREENHUT: that's made for AI. RICK GREENHUT: That's something that would take a human a lot longer to look up and document RICK GREENHUT: properly than AI.

00:50:01.420 - 00:50:20.290

RICK GREENHUT: But Sports Illustrated's premise was how many junior writers can we RICK GREENHUT: lay off and just have a senior person look at a bunch of AI stories? RICK GREENHUT: And the problem with the AI stories is these moments of RICK GREENHUT: Artificial Intelligence generating artificial insanity.

00:50:21.400 - 00:50:38.900

RICK GREENHUT: You know, when they say, "well, Hitler was seen in the audience at the latest Los RICK GREENHUT: Angeles Laker game," things like that would come up and if, God help you, if RICK GREENHUT: you didn't catch it, it means the story wasn't vetted. RICK GREENHUT: The problem with AI is not the ability to do a

00:50:39.020 - 00:50:58.940

RICK GREENHUT: story. The problem is the ability RICK GREENHUT: that's currently lacking in vetting the facts on a story, RICK GREENHUT: or using AI in ways that are most appropriate, RICK GREENHUT: which is analyze, crunch this bunch of data and tell me why

00:50:58.940 - 00:51:15.550

RICK GREENHUT: this basketball player's career is probably in its final RICK GREENHUT: year. You know, I can write three paragraphs and RICK GREENHUT: instantly the I can generate the data that either supports RICK GREENHUT: or disproves my premise.

00:51:15.700 - 00:51:32.530

RICK GREENHUT: And it's a great job of teamwork and in teamwork, RICK GREENHUT: AI can be a fabulous tool. RICK GREENHUT: But when employers are looking to use it as a shortcut to merely RICK GREENHUT: artificially generate something a human would otherwise have done,

00:51:32.530 - 00:51:47.660

RICK GREENHUT: it's a huge problem. RICK GREENHUT: And the old white men in Congress RICK GREENHUT: who most of whom still have their assistants print out their RICK GREENHUT: emails because they can't quite get them on their phone or they can't see them without

00:51:47.660 - 00:52:03.670

RICK GREENHUT: their bifocals. RICK GREENHUT: We're still operating under something called the Communications Act of 1934, RICK GREENHUT: which was amended in the late 80s. RICK GREENHUT: When I was in college, we were taught about the Communications Act of

00:52:03.670 - 00:52:20.710

RICK GREENHUT: 1934. It was somewhat outdated in RICK GREENHUT: 1934 when it was passed, and the RICK GREENHUT: world has passed it by at supersonic speed. RICK GREENHUT: And AI is something that is begging for some kind of government

00:52:20.710 - 00:52:38.440

RICK GREENHUT: guardrails, and it won't happen anywhere near soon RICK GREENHUT: enough to prevent AI abuses. RICK GREENHUT: There are there are already things out there. RICK GREENHUT: There was a robocall in New Hampshire during the primary

00:52:38.440 - 00:52:55.210

RICK GREENHUT: that you would swear was Joe Biden saying, "don't RICK GREENHUT: vote in the Democratic primary, it'll benefit the Republicans." A RICK GREENHUT: nd a lot of people didn't, not that it mattered in that case, but it felt like a RICK GREENHUT: test run for something else.

00:52:55.240 - 00:53:12.340

RICK GREENHUT: You get a robocall and it sounds like your candidate, or the president, RICK GREENHUT: or someone else who you might be likely to believe, that can RICK GREENHUT: be hugely destructive. RICK GREENHUT: And the government hasn't a clue on how to police it, assuming that can even be done.

00:53:13.970 - 00:53:33.160

RICK GREENHUT: There was an article- i'm drawing a blank as to where I read RICK GREENHUT: it. At the Consumer Electronics RICK GREENHUT: Show in Las Vegas in January, there were a number of RICK GREENHUT: robots walking around with various artificial intelligence

00:53:33.160 - 00:53:51.540

RICK GREENHUT: capabilities. And more than one RICK GREENHUT: person I know who was there made the observation RICK GREENHUT: that you could talk to one of these for a while and it would RICK GREENHUT: make sense, and you could carry on what appeared to be a

00:53:51.540 - 00:54:10.620

RICK GREENHUT: conversation, but then there'd be some non-sequitur or some RICK GREENHUT: crazy thing, like this momentary flash of insanity, or it would say RICK GREENHUT: something that made absolutely no sense in context, context RICK GREENHUT: and you, now, now you're thinking, "well, now I have to distrust everything it said."

00:54:11.400 - 00:54:28.410

RICK GREENHUT: And that's the insidious part of AI when it starts to creep into the RICK GREENHUT: newsroom. It's not just AI you're going to distrust. RICK GREENHUT: You're going to distrust what used to be authority figures. RICK GREENHUT: You're going to distrust a lot of what appears in

00:54:28.410 - 00:54:44.230

RICK GREENHUT: public media. RICK GREENHUT: There was something, some notes I made RICK GREENHUT: when you were doing the comparison between Covid masking RICK GREENHUT: and the Hanford information that came out in the 90s, it

00:54:44.230 - 00:55:02.590

RICK GREENHUT: struck me that from the government's point of view, Hanford was a huge RICK GREENHUT: success. The people involved deliberately and successfully suppressed RICK GREENHUT: information, they shut down communication, they obfuscated RICK GREENHUT: and they misdirected, and it was years before the facts came out.

00:55:03.710 - 00:55:19.970

RICK GREENHUT: And that was using the equivalent of a steam powered technology. RICK GREENHUT: Think about the potential that exists with artificial intelligence to do that on a far RICK GREENHUT: more sophisticated level. RICK GREENHUT: For those of us who remember the Kennedy assassination,

00:55:21.650 - 00:55:38.680

RICK GREENHUT: in retrospect, it, it was kind of a watershed RICK GREENHUT: moment when you had this post World War Two mentality RICK GREENHUT: of, um, well, we're the good guys, we won, we believe what the government RICK GREENHUT: tells us because, after all, they're us.

00:55:39.540 - 00:55:56.990

RICK GREENHUT: And with all the conspiracy theories after the Kennedy assassination, that first RICK GREENHUT: doubt crept in: maybe they're not telling us the truth. RICK GREENHUT: Maybe the government doesn't have all the benign RICK GREENHUT: instincts and intent that we thought of, and that

00:55:57.170 - 00:56:08.810

RICK GREENHUT: feeds people's natural paranoia. RICK GREENHUT: And as Americans, we do love a conspiracy theory. RICK GREENHUT: And there are there are tons of reasons to distrust RICK GREENHUT: certain things.

00:56:09.450 - 00:56:29.710

RICK GREENHUT: But I wish some of the most virulent advocates RICK GREENHUT: of ignoring the traditional news sources, what the right loves to call the RICK GREENHUT: mainstream media, I'd love those people to spend a week in a network RICK GREENHUT: newsroom and see how it really works, and see what the people reporting

00:56:29.710 - 00:56:48.280

RICK GREENHUT: those stories are really like, you know, and find out there's not some memo from above RICK GREENHUT: saying, "thou shalt not say anything good about Joe Biden" RICK GREENHUT: or "do not refer to RICK GREENHUT: Rodney King" or do not refer to, you know, fill

00:56:48.610 - 00:57:03.060

RICK GREENHUT: in the latest hot button topic. RICK GREENHUT: It doesn't work that way. RICK GREENHUT: And if you ask 100 news professionals what are the top RICK GREENHUT: three stories here, you're going to find 60 or 70 percent

00:57:03.060 - 00:57:17.710

RICK GREENHUT: agreement when they're shown a list of 10 or 15 stories, because that's RICK GREENHUT: what they've been taught. RICK GREENHUT: That's part of their profession. RICK GREENHUT: And that's why the potential for citizen journalists is such a two edged

00:57:17.710 - 00:57:29.710

RICK GREENHUT: sword, because you really, really have to struggle to make RICK GREENHUT: sure am I reporting? RICK GREENHUT: Am I a journalist? RICK GREENHUT: Or am I editorializing?

00:57:30.340 - 00:57:46.160

RICK GREENHUT: And it's sometimes hard to tell and it's even RICK GREENHUT: sometimes hard to know. BRIANNA THOMPSON: It definitely can be. BRIANNA THOMPSON: But thank you for all of your wisdom and your stories that you've been able to

00:57:46.160 - 00:57:59.570

BRIANNA THOMPSON: share. It's very valuable to those of us who will be BRIANNA THOMPSON: watching. So thank you very much for your time. RICK GREENHUT: I'm delighted to be able to help consider me a resource you know, in the RICK GREENHUT: future.