00:00:03.890 - 00:00:17.690

TAPIA: You can tell me what we're doing. TAPIA: I mean, why are you recording me? MANCHESTER: This is a project to collect MANCHESTER: oral histories of people sort of in and around math at

00:00:17.690 - 00:00:33.540

MANCHESTER: rice. This is something that the math librarian at MANCHESTER: Rice, Kay Kolah, has been sort of wanting to do for a while, and she got s MANCHESTER: ome folks to to do it! TAPIA: So it's related to math.

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MANCHESTER: Yeah. Mhm. TAPIA: Okay. You ever talk to Frank Jones? MANCHESTER: Yes. We did. Yeah. MANCHESTER: We got we got Frank Jones.

00:00:43.030 - 00:00:56.360

SONG: I think he was actually our first interview. MANCHESTER: Yeah, he was. TAPIA: Yeah, Frank knows the department well. TAPIA: He's one of the only people that's even been here longer than I have.

00:00:56.960 - 00:01:06.230

MANCHESTER: Okay, just for the recording, I'm. MANCHESTER: I'm Alex Manchester. MANCHESTER: I'm here with Ashley... SONG: I'm Ashley song.

00:01:06.230 - 00:01:23.820

MANCHESTER: And we're here with Dr. MANCHESTER: Tapia. MANCHESTER: And I should say the date is March 29th, 2024. MANCHESTER: I guess just to start us

00:01:23.820 - 00:01:38.860

MANCHESTER: off, where and when did did you MANCHESTER: grow up? Can you tell us about a bit about growing up? TAPIA: Well, I was born in Los Angeles, actually, to be specific, in Santa Monica. TAPIA: Okay. You know, with the beautiful beaches.

00:01:38.860 - 00:01:52.420

TAPIA: And TAPIA: so, I grew up there. TAPIA: And then we moved to Los Angeles, into the interior, and then we moved TAPIA: to an area called Torrance.

00:01:52.450 - 00:02:06.280

TAPIA: Okay. So I went to high school and junior high TAPIA: in Torrance, California. TAPIA: So the area was a Bay area. TAPIA: It was from Long Beach to Redondo Beach to Manhattan Beach to

00:02:06.280 - 00:02:21.640

TAPIA: Santa Monica beach down to Malibu. TAPIA: Okay, so those are the areas I lived on the beach. TAPIA: I mean, I was born near the beach, i grew up near the beach, and I loved the TAPIA: beach. And so when I was a student at UCLA and I needed to think by

00:02:21.640 - 00:02:30.220

TAPIA: myself, I'd just go walk the beach. TAPIA: And I used to walk the beach maybe three times a week. TAPIA: Okay. The Santa Monica beach. TAPIA: Okay, so that was it.

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TAPIA: Now my mother and father are from Mexico. TAPIA: My mother was born in Chihuahua, in the hills, an area called Batopilas, TAPIA: and my father was born in Nayarit. TAPIA: And they came here as children without parents.

00:02:47.980 - 00:03:03.460

TAPIA: In fact, my mother, as a 12 year old, came from Mexico TAPIA: with her 11 year old sister by themselves.H er TAPIA: father had said, "Look Magda, you're smart. TAPIA: I'm sending you to a place with great education.

00:03:04.390 - 00:03:13.120

TAPIA: I'm sending you to California, to Los Angeles." And he sent her. TAPIA: I mean, you know, he sent her without. TAPIA: He didn't go with her. TAPIA: He didn't have any relatives.

00:03:13.210 - 00:03:28.840

TAPIA: She was actually taken care of on the way by various nuns. TAPIA: Okay, so my mother was the proudest person in the world about TAPIA: Mexico. She came at 12 TAPIA: and she died at 89.

00:03:28.840 - 00:03:46.030

TAPIA: So she was American and she was a citizen, b ut TAPIA: in her heart and in el fondo del corazon, it was TAPIA: all Mexico. TAPIA: Okay. And so she had she taught us a pride as we grew up.

00:03:46.030 - 00:03:58.870

TAPIA: There's five of us. TAPIA: And I have a brother who went to Yale and a sister who went to Stanford, and TAPIA: another brother who went to UCLA. TAPIA: And she taught us pride in who we were because the local

00:03:58.870 - 00:04:14.860

TAPIA: environment was not telling us to be proud. TAPIA: You know, if you're Mexican, then you're inferior in so many ways, TAPIA: okay. It could be socially, it could be intellectually, or whatever. TAPIA: So my mother was very strong, and she's not educated.

00:04:15.820 - 00:04:32.100

TAPIA: She didn't go to middle school or high school, but she taught us to TAPIA: be really proud, which I'm proud of, but almost TAPIA: borderline arrogant. TAPIA: Okay. I mean, when I talk to my brother and my sister, I

00:04:32.100 - 00:04:49.230

TAPIA: almost say I don't like them because they're just so--my TAPIA: sister lives with us right now--and she has a TAPIA: math undergraduate degree and then a law degree. TAPIA: And she's very smart, but talking to her sometimes she's too

00:04:49.230 - 00:05:01.770

TAPIA: much lawyer, just too technical and too specific. TAPIA: When you do small talk, you've got to just round it, okay? TAPIA: and don't worry about the details. TAPIA: You know, like for example, "Oh, I had a dog.

00:05:02.130 - 00:05:19.790

TAPIA: " "Oh yeah, what color was a dog?" "Okay, you know, who cares? TAPIA: Okay?" And so I grew up in Los Angeles, TAPIA: went to public school, I am definitely a product of public school. TAPIA: Then I went to junior college, and then I went to

00:05:19.790 - 00:05:35.510

TAPIA: UCLA and I got all my degrees at UCLA, undergraduate, masters, and PhD, TAPIA: and then I was faculty at UCLA. TAPIA: Now, I didn't go to junior college, in those days, I didn't go because TAPIA: I couldn't make it into UCLA.

00:05:35.540 - 00:05:46.040

TAPIA: The truth was, I could make it into UCLA. TAPIA: It just happened to be very convenient. TAPIA: And we went. TAPIA: And the quality of education--I'll say this-- the teaching I

00:05:46.040 - 00:05:58.550

TAPIA: had in mathematics in junior college was better than the teaching in mathematics at TAPIA: UCLA. UCLA had great researchers and great people, but they were TAPIA: not great teachers. TAPIA: I mean, not by a long ways, okay.

00:05:58.550 - 00:06:12.950

TAPIA: But they were good people. TAPIA: So, you know, that's my background. TAPIA: I was always searching for an identity. TAPIA: And that was because the school I went to was not

00:06:12.950 - 00:06:25.770

TAPIA: large population Latino. TAPIA: And yet I was and I had that identity. TAPIA: So I was somewhat orthogonal to the whole class. TAPIA: So I was always been searching for an identity.

00:06:26.340 - 00:06:41.040

TAPIA: You know, you search for an identity especially, you know, if you're TAPIA: underrepresented minority. TAPIA: And, when I got to UCLA, my TAPIA: PhD is 1968, so think of the time periods of '65,

00:06:42.960 - 00:06:55.560

TAPIA: '66, '67, '68. TAPIA: That was a time period where the Chicano movement was TAPIA: really strong. TAPIA: And there's a poem called I Am Joaquin that really tells you the whole

00:06:55.560 - 00:07:15.720

TAPIA: story. So I at UCLA found the identity that I was looking TAPIA: for because we had all these Mexican American groups: we had MEChA TAPIA: and a lot of things. So the identity I had been searching for as a Mexican TAPIA: American, I found at UCLA, and not in the math department, it was just

00:07:15.720 - 00:07:33.300

TAPIA: everywhere. And we had wonderful activities. TAPIA: You know, we do sit ins or whatever. TAPIA: That'd be '65, '66, '67. TAPIA: And that's a same time that the Black Panthers, you know, Huey

00:07:33.300 - 00:07:48.360

TAPIA: Newton and Bobby Seale were moving. TAPIA: And so so if you take 1965 to TAPIA: '70, those five years in Los Angeles, California, were wonderful TAPIA: years. I mean, they were not boring.

00:07:48.360 - 00:08:04.380

TAPIA: I mean, when I start telling my students--because I have a TAPIA: book that I call Losing the Precious Few. TAPIA: So when I tell the students my stories of the 60s, they don't believe them. TAPIA: I mean, they just can't believe that there was a time period like that and the

00:08:04.380 - 00:08:22.580

TAPIA: pride that we all gained in it. TAPIA: And friends that I made in these Latin groups are TAPIA: to this day, my best friends: Rodrigo Banuelos, who is chair of the TAPIA: department at Purdue, I mean, he's closer than a brother; and the same with

00:08:22.580 - 00:08:36.050

TAPIA: JB Martinez. TAPIA: So we build we built a bond that was just so tight, TAPIA: finally, I found an identity. TAPIA: Okay, so I was searching for an identity.

00:08:36.170 - 00:08:49.160

TAPIA: And the word that I use is "Chicano" because in TAPIA: California it's a really good work. TAPIA: Texas is behind, okay? TAPIA: They don't use the word Chicano.

00:08:49.160 - 00:09:07.010

TAPIA: They say, "Oh, that's derogatory," but that's because they weren't in the movement. TAPIA: So, I often tell people, if you look in my heart, TAPIA: I'll say it in Spanish, okay, I'll say alrededor TAPIA: del corazon. That means around my heart, I'm Mexican.

00:09:08.800 - 00:09:20.770

TAPIA: Pero en el centro, in the center, I'm a Chicano, okay? TAPIA: And I was part of that movement. TAPIA: So I have pride: I have pride in being a mathematician, and I have pride in being TAPIA: Mexican-American and Chicano.

00:09:20.890 - 00:09:37.990

TAPIA: And my mother taught me those things. TAPIA: So I've lacked not being able to say, fit in, TAPIA: for example, socially, okay. TAPIA: The high school I went to, if you don't know American history, there was a movement

00:09:37.990 - 00:09:53.680

TAPIA: in the late 40s and early 50s called TAPIA: the Okies, and that's dustbowl, TAPIA: and that's The Grapes of Wrath, for example. TAPIA: So you're moving in from.

00:09:53.680 - 00:10:11.050

TAPIA: Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma by the TAPIA: droves to California. TAPIA: And in fact, there was one time where the California TAPIA: state troopers stayed at the border of Arizona and California

00:10:11.050 - 00:10:25.780

TAPIA: to stop people from coming in. TAPIA: If you didn't have some money, they wouldn't let you into California. TAPIA: But anyway, the area that I grew up in was just full of TAPIA: Okies, which were white people, and they were racist,

00:10:25.780 - 00:10:40.960

TAPIA: okay? And they weren't unintelligent and they weren't TAPIA: unattractive, but they were racist. TAPIA: And so they really thought low of Mexican-Americans. TAPIA: So if I ever felt any inferiority, it was certainly not mathematically.

00:10:40.960 - 00:10:57.520

TAPIA: I was always the best math student in the school, always, from the first grade. TAPIA: It would be a social inferiority that I didn't get invited to TAPIA: the right parties, or those groups didn't do this and then do this. TAPIA: I have a twin brother.

00:10:57.520 - 00:11:12.310

TAPIA: So instead of worrying about the social aspects of high schools, we started TAPIA: building cars. TAPIA: And this was California in the 60s. TAPIA: And so it was a time period like my son now he tells me, "Dad, you grew

00:11:12.310 - 00:11:28.930

TAPIA: up in the right place at the right time. TAPIA: " But Bobby, my twin brother, and I started building race cars and not just as a TAPIA: hobby. By the time we were 16 years old, we already had national records. TAPIA: And in 1968, February of '68, my brother

00:11:28.930 - 00:11:43.570

TAPIA: as a driver set the world record in fuel dragster. TAPIA: And I got a PhD. TAPIA: So in my talks I always have a question, and I show my brother TAPIA: Bobby set world record and then it shows me with a PhD from UCLA.

00:11:43.570 - 00:12:00.880

TAPIA: And I asked them to vote, "What would you rather have: a PhD in mathematics from TAPIA: UCLA, or the world record in Fuel dragster? TAPIA: " And last Thursday I gave a talk here and surprisingly enough, TAPIA: these were all PhD people, they were, a lot of Rice faculty, and the

00:12:00.880 - 00:12:16.930

TAPIA: majority of them would rather have the world record, they said. TAPIA: Now, high school teachers, always the PhD, you know. TAPIA: But anyway, the excitement that we had from setting world records and TAPIA: from winning races, it was just too much.

00:12:16.930 - 00:12:33.780

TAPIA: And like my late daughter, I had a daughter that, TAPIA: her name was Circee, she was killed in an automobile TAPIA: accident while she was a student at Rice. TAPIA: This is 1982, at the corner of Greenbriar and University a

00:12:33.780 - 00:12:46.400

TAPIA: drunk driver hit her. TAPIA: My wife grew up in New York, studied New York City TAPIA: Ballet, she was a great dancer. TAPIA: Our daughter was an even better dancer.

00:12:46.940 - 00:13:05.810

TAPIA: And so she grew up at and went to HSPVA here. TAPIA: Then she said, TAPIA: "All my problems are Houston, I'm moving to Los Angeles." And so she went to TAPIA: UCLA. And in the history of UCLA, she's the only

00:13:06.290 - 00:13:24.980

TAPIA: freshman to dance the lead role in their major dance production at the Wilshire TAPIA: Ebell Theater. So then she went to New York and she TAPIA: worked with various companies, and then she told me, "Dad, I was a star in TAPIA: Houston. But in New York, there are 500 young women that are better than I

00:13:24.980 - 00:13:40.700

TAPIA: am. I'm getting out of dance and I'm coming back to TAPIA: Rice, and I'm going to study computer science TAPIA: and stuff." And she suffered from those things that she was too good in too many TAPIA: things. Okay, that's a curse.

00:13:40.700 - 00:13:47.000

TAPIA: It's a curse because you don't know where to go. TAPIA: I was only good in math. TAPIA: I wasn't good in anything else. TAPIA: Okay, so I went math, okay.

00:13:47.390 - 00:14:03.800

TAPIA: And anyway, she came back and as a sophomore, TAPIA: there's a dance rehearsal here at Rice, and on the way home, she was killed. TAPIA: Okay, so that's kind of our story. TAPIA: So I have a tie to Rice because I've been here on the faculty

00:14:03.800 - 00:14:17.990

TAPIA: for 52 years. TAPIA: But I also have a tie because my daughter was killed while she was a Rice TAPIA: student, and so at night when TAPIA: it's late and dark, I hear the oak trees whistle.

00:14:18.710 - 00:14:34.700

TAPIA: They keep saying "Circee. TAPIA: Circee." So next Wednesday I have to give a talk, there's a TAPIA: reception for me, and I will end it talking about TAPIA: the fact that my tie to Rice

00:14:34.700 - 00:14:49.360

TAPIA: will always continue because of TAPIA: Circee. We had three kids, TAPIA: so isn't that Circee was the only one? TAPIA: But anyway, I'm just telling you things, but let me say

00:14:49.360 - 00:15:07.790

TAPIA: this: the one thing that was really important to me is that as I grew up in TAPIA: Los Angeles and I was identifiably Mexican-American. TAPIA: All the people would put us down. TAPIA: You know, "You're lazy, you're inferior, you're intellectually, you can't do

00:15:07.790 - 00:15:24.170

TAPIA: anything." What made me feel not inferior was I TAPIA: was always the best math student in the class or in the TAPIA: school. It wasn't a great school. TAPIA: Okay? I'm not telling you that I was off at some great high school, but I was clearly the

00:15:24.170 - 00:15:40.070

TAPIA: best in the first grade, the second grade, the third. TAPIA: So they could say what they wanted, but they couldn't break me because I TAPIA: knew I had talent and I TAPIA: just accepted it internally as to say, "Well, you know, they can say what they

00:15:40.070 - 00:15:55.430

TAPIA: want." But I got a lot of respect. TAPIA: I mean, in high school, I got a lot of respect from TAPIA: people saying, you know, you're a math genius, which, of course, the word genius is TAPIA: overused. But was I good?

00:15:55.430 - 00:16:10.030

TAPIA: Yeah, I was good. I got a PhD from UCLA. TAPIA: Was I great? No, I mean, no, it's too hard. TAPIA: But anyway, I got a good education, and it served me TAPIA: well, and the times were different because when I got out, there were lots of

00:16:10.030 - 00:16:25.860

TAPIA: jobs. Lots of jobs. TAPIA: And I went to Madison, Wisconsin, and after that, TAPIA: when I came and applied to Rice, I had 15 job TAPIA: offers:

00:16:25.860 - 00:16:37.570

TAPIA: University of Virginia, TAPIA: Utah, Texas, Rice, I mean all kinds of schools. TAPIA: The world was different. TAPIA: Your world is different.

00:16:37.570 - 00:16:53.890

TAPIA: Your world is different. TAPIA: I'm happy with the world, but it's changed so much from when I grew up. TAPIA: But the one thing in my life that I will tell you is math TAPIA: always gave me a feeling of confidence

00:16:54.220 - 00:17:05.860

TAPIA: and that, you know, that I was good at something. TAPIA: Now, my wife was Puerto Rican from New York. TAPIA: It's called Nuyorican. TAPIA: She was a great dancer.

00:17:05.860 - 00:17:16.540

TAPIA: She was a social dancer. TAPIA: I was terrible. TAPIA: So Gina and I, she taught me some dancing, but TAPIA: i was terrible.

00:17:16.540 - 00:17:29.530

TAPIA: And then I used to run and I was terrible. TAPIA: But I was always good in math and swimming because I grew up in the TAPIA: ocean. I was a great swimmer. TAPIA: And a good mathematician.

00:17:29.530 - 00:17:46.100

TAPIA: How's that good mathematician? TAPIA: I mean, I'm not going to say great. MANCHESTER: So,you you talked about your mom and how she instilled MANCHESTER: a pride of being Mexican, but I don't think you talked about your dad very much.

00:17:46.100 - 00:18:00.080

TAPIA: That's right. And a lot of people have caught exactly what you caught. TAPIA: My mother raised us. TAPIA: My father would go off to work before I woke up and come TAPIA: back after we'd gone to bed.

00:18:00.290 - 00:18:14.000

TAPIA: So he didn't raise the children. TAPIA: He didn't play an active role. TAPIA: My mother was the one that her job was to stay home and raise us, five of TAPIA: us. So I keep talking about my mother because she was the one I interacted with a

00:18:14.000 - 00:18:28.730

TAPIA: lot. Now I love my father and we had a good relationship, but I TAPIA: didn't spend time with him like I did. TAPIA: Now the one thing I was influenced by my father, he loved people. TAPIA: I mean, he was really inclusive and they loved him.

00:18:28.730 - 00:18:42.480

TAPIA: I don't know anybody that didn't love my father. TAPIA: In fact, my late wife, Jean, her favorite person TAPIA: in the world was my father. TAPIA: That was her favorite person in the world, and she really loved him and he really loved

00:18:42.480 - 00:18:58.970

TAPIA: her. They were just so tight. TAPIA: So my father was there, TAPIA: but he didn't even call the shots, as far as I'm TAPIA: concerned. I mean, my mother was the matriarch, and she

00:18:58.970 - 00:19:17.460

TAPIA: ran things and she called things and she definitely raised us. TAPIA: So if you look at the personality of my sister Becky, who's a lawyer, and TAPIA: my brother Steve, who's a lawyer, and, and me, TAPIA: it's something that we gained from our mother about feeling you're

00:19:17.460 - 00:19:27.870

TAPIA: not inferior. TAPIA: You're not inferior. TAPIA: And, my mother would tell me when I was young, "Be proud of being Mexican." I TAPIA: said, "Mom, they won't let me be proud.

00:19:27.870 - 00:19:45.840

TAPIA: They take it away, they take it away, they take it away." And she would keep saying, TAPIA: "No, be proud." And so when most people who come immigrants, TAPIA: they stay away from the activities, like in school. TAPIA: My mother was there, I mean, she was in the PTA and she was here and she was there, and

00:19:45.840 - 00:20:02.530

TAPIA: if anything went wrong, she was talking to the teachers. TAPIA: So my mother was for a Mexican TAPIA: American or for an immigrant Mexican, she was pretty aggressive. TAPIA: But she was fair and she really

00:20:02.530 - 00:20:15.440

TAPIA: had an honest belief that we or anybody was as good TAPIA: as anybody else. TAPIA: I mean, not better. TAPIA: Cubans think, you know, you take the hierarchy of Hispanics,

00:20:15.440 - 00:20:28.310

TAPIA: okay, the Mexicans are at the bottom and we tend to be TAPIA: excessively modest, okay. TAPIA: And humble, whereas the top are the Cubans. TAPIA: Okay. And the Cubans all think that they're really good.

00:20:28.760 - 00:20:45.910

TAPIA: But for being such a modest group of people, my mother, TAPIA: worked at... TAPIA: Now that caused her to be isolated from the community. TAPIA: A lot of people said my mother thought she was better than everybody, that she

00:20:45.910 - 00:21:00.090

TAPIA: was this and she was, because she didn't fit the stereotypical woman from TAPIA: Mexico, and it served us well. TAPIA: But it did cause her conflict with the community and with TAPIA: our family.

00:21:00.270 - 00:21:16.420

TAPIA: So she went off on her own, and I'm glad she did. TAPIA: I'm glad she did. TAPIA: I mean, look, here's a woman who never went to middle school with TAPIA: a child who graduated from Stanford, another one from Yale and two from UCLA.

00:21:16.660 - 00:21:36.100

TAPIA: That's pretty damn good. TAPIA: That's pretty damn good. SONG: So, in terms of grade SONG: school, what was that like mathematically and in

00:21:36.100 - 00:21:47.980

SONG: terms of racial makeup, like, how was school like SONG: elementary, middle high school? TAPIA: Well, I mean, I always knew what was in the book. TAPIA: In the third grade, it was Mrs.

00:21:47.980 - 00:22:04.060

TAPIA: Bentwood and she would do this to me, TAPIA: Mrs. Bentwood, a white woman. TAPIA: She'd say, "Richard, you know this stuff in the TAPIA: book." Which I did.

00:22:04.060 - 00:22:22.390

TAPIA: "So will you tutor the kids who aren't getting it? TAPIA: " So already in the third grade I'd been elevated to a status TAPIA: of respect from the class because I would tutor the people, and some of these TAPIA: people that I tutored went off to become world renowned whatevers.

00:22:22.390 - 00:22:38.650

TAPIA: So she respected that. TAPIA: But here's the really important thing. TAPIA: Since we were all being put down for speaking Spanish or for being TAPIA: Mexican-American, whenever in, say, in social studies

00:22:38.650 - 00:22:52.420

TAPIA: or in other classes, Mrs. TAPIA: Bentwood would would run into a Spanish word. TAPIA: She would stop and she would ask me to say it in Spanish TAPIA: correctly. And then she would say, "Isn't that beautiful?

00:22:52.600 - 00:23:09.800

TAPIA: Isn't that word sound so, like Lake Titicaca?" and then she would say, "Isn't TAPIA: that language so beautiful?" And so she gave us pride in addition to TAPIA: our mother. And so she made me think that I was TAPIA: worthy of praise.

00:23:09.830 - 00:23:20.090

TAPIA: Now that's the only teacher that I really had that way. TAPIA: Now, the other ones weren't all bad. TAPIA: I mean, my math teacher in high school was okay. TAPIA: I mean, it was good. I mean, it wasn't bad.

00:23:22.340 - 00:23:37.920

TAPIA: No, I mean to me, elementary TAPIA: school was fine. TAPIA: I didn't have any problems. TAPIA: Where as a Mexican-American, where I really face problems

00:23:37.920 - 00:23:50.850

TAPIA: was, as you gain puberty because TAPIA: as a dating thing started. TAPIA: Okay, see, we were all together in grammar school, you know, white and TAPIA: yellow, Black and white, you know, all the same.

00:23:51.570 - 00:24:05.490

TAPIA: And we really didn't think about it. TAPIA: I didn't grow up with many Black people around me. TAPIA: Then middle school started a bit later, but high school was already TAPIA: separated. Okay, I wasn't part of the social group,

00:24:06.060 - 00:24:17.730

TAPIA: okay? And I didn't get invited to the parties, okay? TAPIA: And I didn't, you know, date. TAPIA: I was too immature, but I didn't date the neat TAPIA: girls.

00:24:17.730 - 00:24:30.990

TAPIA: And there was one girl, one woman, no, she was a girl. TAPIA: Her name was Theresa Pulido. TAPIA: She was the most beautiful girl in our school. TAPIA: Everybody wanted to date her and talk to her.

00:24:31.620 - 00:24:47.280

TAPIA: And at a class reunion, I don't know, maybe our TAPIA: 40th or something, I saw her and I was no longer shy, TAPIA: and so I went up to her and I said, "Teresa, I said everybody wanted to TAPIA: talk to you.

00:24:47.400 - 00:25:04.590

TAPIA: Nobody could talk to you because there were so many people in line. TAPIA: And she said to me, I knew who you were, and I was waiting for you to talk to TAPIA: me." And about that time, a really nice, slow, TAPIA: romantic song came on, and I said, "Teresa, let's have this

00:25:04.590 - 00:25:20.700

TAPIA: dance for what could have been." And we had a great dance, and I think it TAPIA: was the platters. TAPIA: And it ended there. TAPIA: But as I think back, I wasn't

00:25:20.700 - 00:25:35.130

TAPIA: prepared socially to reach out. TAPIA: I could have been, I mean, if my mother had prepared us better. TAPIA: So it's a mix between how racist were these people TAPIA: and how shy was I?

00:25:35.130 - 00:25:53.390

TAPIA: That's the mix that I still don't know the answer to. TAPIA: But I think if I lived again in high school, had I gone to an all TAPIA: Hispanic high school, everything would have been easy, but it wasn't. TAPIA: My wife died in November of, uh,

00:25:54.050 - 00:26:07.060

TAPIA: '22, and we got married very young. TAPIA: My wife was, when we got married, she was just turning TAPIA: 18. And I was turning 20. TAPIA: I was 19.

00:26:08.240 - 00:26:28.340

TAPIA: So we got married, and we had a wonderful life TAPIA: together and things, but as the TAPIA: '60s came, I moved away from this high school, I went TAPIA: to UCLA, and the people across the, we

00:26:28.340 - 00:26:42.410

TAPIA: lived in an apartment, the one across, they were Jewish, and he was a medical student. TAPIA: So we tied into a social group of all the Jewish medical TAPIA: students and law students. TAPIA: And this was Beverly Hills, because they all were from Bervely Hills.

00:26:42.740 - 00:26:58.550

TAPIA: So when Jean and I, we ran hard socially in the 60s. TAPIA: So from being quiet, shy little math, we were TAPIA: rock and roll. I mean, we hit the 60s. TAPIA: And you know, people, when I tell my students today here at Rice, they don't

00:26:58.550 - 00:27:13.040

TAPIA: believe the stories I tell them about the 60s. TAPIA: But, you know, the 60s were drugs, sex and rock and roll. TAPIA: And so, Timothy Leary, you ever heard Timothy TAPIA: Leary? Well, he was a guru, LSD guru.

00:27:13.070 - 00:27:33.620

TAPIA: He was a Harvard professor, he didn't have tenure, but he was fired because he pushed TAPIA: LSD. And so in the 60s, there were two things that really TAPIA: mattered. One was the contraceptive the pill, TAPIA: came out in 1960, so drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll, and then LSD and

00:27:33.620 - 00:27:48.810

TAPIA: other drugs experimental. TAPIA: So it was free sex. TAPIA: I mean a freedom in sex and experimentation with TAPIA: drugs. And so Timothy Leary has his saying that

00:27:49.950 - 00:28:07.090

TAPIA: he has several, but one of them is, "Intelligence TAPIA: is an aphrodisiac." And just think about that, TAPIA: okay? "Intelligence is an aphrodisiac. TAPIA: " Okay? And so, I tell my class

00:28:07.540 - 00:28:23.300

TAPIA: and I ask them who and maybe in four years teaching one has TAPIA: said, but then I say, here's I have my own 1960s TAPIA: expression, okay. TAPIA: And they go, "Really? What is it?" And I said, "If you haven't had sex with

00:28:23.300 - 00:28:35.750

TAPIA: a stranger, you didn't live the 60s, okay? TAPIA: " And they just go crazy. TAPIA: They go, "Are you kidding?" And I said, "No, I am not kidding." Okay? TAPIA: And then I tell them a lot of stories, because Jean and I

00:28:35.750 - 00:28:50.990

TAPIA: were, really enjoying our TAPIA: time in North Hollywood and West Los Angeles. TAPIA: And so I changed from being the quiet, shy, nice TAPIA: person into being a monster.

00:28:56.220 - 00:29:07.440

MANCHESTER: How did you end up pursuing a career in math? MANCHESTER: Was there anyone who inspired you? TAPIA: Because I was good at it. I mean, it was that simple. TAPIA: I mean, did I love it?

00:29:08.830 - 00:29:17.740

TAPIA: Uh, was I good in it because I loved it? TAPIA: Or did I love it because I was good at it? TAPIA: No, I loved it because I was good at it. TAPIA: So I started it at UCLA in engineering.

00:29:18.390 - 00:29:34.250

TAPIA: But there was too much slop and I said, "No, I'm going to go back to math." And people TAPIA: would say, "Oh, but you're gotta go and get a job. TAPIA: " Yeah, but I'm going to go back to math and, I TAPIA: did And math and I, I mean, it's it's beautiful.

00:29:34.910 - 00:29:49.920

TAPIA: As you know, it's beautiful. TAPIA: Last night I was working on, I have a book I'm working and when TAPIA: the pieces fit together, they're just so beautiful. TAPIA: Now, my my wife is really into music.

00:29:49.920 - 00:30:03.330

TAPIA: I mean, she's Puerto Rican. TAPIA: Her father was a musician, her biological father. TAPIA: So she's really talented musically and she's a dancer. TAPIA: So our children are talented

00:30:03.540 - 00:30:18.810

TAPIA: musically. My son Richard. TAPIA: Went to HSPVA and he was number one in the state of Texas in TAPIA: percussion. Now, Richard told me he doesn't know a lot of TAPIA: mathematics, but on his own he reads mathematics.

00:30:19.590 - 00:30:29.640

TAPIA: He's studying music, but he reads mathematics. TAPIA: And he told me that the other day, "There's two beautiful things in life. TAPIA: " And I said, "What is that, Richard? TAPIA: " He says, "Music and mathematics.

00:30:29.640 - 00:30:47.540

TAPIA: That's it. That's it." And I mean, he really believes it. TAPIA: And he asked me, my son, who knows no mathematics, not really, not TAPIA: even trigonometry will ask me questions about topology. TAPIA: He gets on the, on the web and he starts reading

00:30:47.960 - 00:31:07.490

TAPIA: this...what's this thing that has mathematicians... TAPIA: anyway, and he'll come back, and he knows all about Perelman, he knows all TAPIA: about, Simons. TAPIA: He knows all of them, and he'll ask me questions about various

00:31:07.490 - 00:31:21.020

TAPIA: people and his understanding for someone who doesn't TAPIA: know mathematics is quite good. TAPIA: But he worries about these things, about the boundedness of the universe or the curvature TAPIA: and those kind of things.

00:31:21.020 - 00:31:29.420

TAPIA: I go, "Richard, I have no idea, and I'm not going to even worry about it. TAPIA: Those things are just too hard. TAPIA: It's just too hard. TAPIA: That's it.

00:31:29.840 - 00:31:44.430

TAPIA: I mean, I don't do that. TAPIA: " He TAPIA: has talent, but I think he stayed away from math because I was in it. TAPIA: And anyway, he's musically talented, really talented.

00:31:46.080 - 00:32:05.170

TAPIA: And so math has served me well as an underrepresented TAPIA: minority, the visibility that I have TAPIA: gained and the confidence--for example, I'm the TAPIA: only rice professor that ever won the National Medal of Science, and that was

00:32:05.170 - 00:32:22.720

TAPIA: in 2011 from President Obama--well it's your credentials TAPIA: precede you. So when somebody invites Richard Tapia to talk, they go, TAPIA: "Well, he can't be a turkey because, you know, he's won..." I TAPIA: was the first Hispanic elected National Academy of Engineering.

00:32:22.720 - 00:32:41.610

TAPIA: I'm a university professor here, and then I won the TAPIA: National Medal of Science and a bunch of other things, so, people TAPIA: can't say I'm a turkey. TAPIA: When I got an invitation from two schools, in particular MIT and

00:32:41.610 - 00:32:58.580

TAPIA: Caltech, to give a talk, it was sort of not a math talk, it was going to be TAPIA: diversity related, I always had one condition. TAPIA: I said, "I will give a talk if the president is the one that introduces me." And TAPIA: at MIT they said, "Well, we didn't have it planned that way.

00:32:58.580 - 00:33:16.100

TAPIA: " I said, "Fine, then I don't need to give the talk." Now at Caltech, it was David TAPIA: Baltimore. And I said, "If David Baltimore doesn't introduce me, I'm not giving a TAPIA: talk." And so he did, and we had a great time. TAPIA: But I don't want to put it all, what I'm talking about,in

00:33:16.770 - 00:33:31.230

TAPIA: minority-land. TAPIA: It's out in minority-land, and that means all the good white people don't TAPIA: come, just all the brown and Black people. TAPIA: And so, no, I told her at MIT, in fact, I was on an advisory

00:33:31.230 - 00:33:40.830

TAPIA: board at MIT, and I disagreed with the president so much that TAPIA: I resigned. TAPIA: I resigned from a lot of boards. TAPIA: That's a power.

00:33:41.280 - 00:33:52.350

TAPIA: That's a lot of power. TAPIA: In 1996, President Clinton appointed me to the National TAPIA: Science Board, and that's a best committee I've ever been on. TAPIA: And we had a lot of fun.

00:33:52.530 - 00:34:07.020

TAPIA: There were 12 women and 12 men, and we did some great TAPIA: stuff. And, Neal Lane, who TAPIA: was here at Rice, you know, he was TAPIA: the director of the National Science Foundation,

00:34:08.130 - 00:34:21.210

TAPIA: and I had Shirley Malcolm and some other people. TAPIA: So we would bring up a lot of issues. TAPIA: And Neil Lane told me once, Richard, you really make my life difficult. TAPIA: And I said, Neil, but that's what I'm supposed to do.

00:34:21.210 - 00:34:38.400

TAPIA: That's your job, and that's what I'm supposed to do, and that's what I'm going to TAPIA: keep doing. So I learned. TAPIA: Look from quiet, shy person, I exploded on the national TAPIA: scene. I mean, I've been on, so many national

00:34:38.880 - 00:34:53.670

TAPIA: committees, including the National Science Board and stuff. TAPIA: And so, I learned how to run with really good people, and this is important for TAPIA: both of you, how to disagree professionally. TAPIA: Don't lose your temper, and think about it before.

00:34:54.330 - 00:35:05.170

TAPIA: Think before you speak. TAPIA: And so, am I impressed with the reputation and the TAPIA: visibility I've gotten? TAPIA: Absolutely. Did I ever think I would get it?

00:35:05.170 - 00:35:13.150

TAPIA: No, never. TAPIA: I mean, did it just happen? TAPIA: I guess. TAPIA: I mean, I can't tell you that I choreographed anything.

00:35:13.390 - 00:35:27.520

TAPIA: I can't tell you that I planned anything To me, it was one step forward. TAPIA: I wasn't going to go to graduate school. TAPIA: I went to undergraduate and I had two friends that told me they're going to TAPIA: graduate school. And I said, "You're not good enough." And they said, "No, we're

00:35:27.520 - 00:35:39.970

TAPIA: going." I said, "Well, I'm better than you are." And they said, "Well, why don't you go? TAPIA: " So I said, "Okay." TAPIA: And then David Sánchez and Lowell J. TAPIA: Paige, Paige was a chair of the math department at UCLA, he said,

00:35:39.970 - 00:35:56.990

TAPIA: "I want you to go into the professorate. TAPIA: I'm going to line you up with a position in Wisconsin." TAPIA: So I was married by that time and I had two kids, and I told Jean "Pack our 63 TAPIA: Chevy because we're going to Wisconsin." And

00:35:58.550 - 00:36:10.760

TAPIA: Madison was great except for the cold. TAPIA: Madison was really a it was a great experience for me. TAPIA: But it was just too damn cold. TAPIA: I mean, really cold.

00:36:11.770 - 00:36:30.740

TAPIA: And Jean's Puerto Rican, she didn't like it. TAPIA: So, I could be called TAPIA: cocky or arrogant. TAPIA: I'd rather be called confident and competent.

00:36:32.060 - 00:36:50.600

TAPIA: As an underrepresented minority, my battle in life has always been TAPIA: to balance and not have people say, "Oh, he's a well-known TAPIA: minority." I want people to say "He's a well known mathematician. TAPIA: Oh, by the way, he happened to be an underrepresented minority." So that

00:36:50.600 - 00:37:09.320

TAPIA: delicate balance between the two has been incredible. TAPIA: And so that's why these awards, like the National TAPIA: Academy of Engineering and National Medal of Science, TAPIA: if you looked at the list of people who won the National Medal of Science, as a

00:37:09.320 - 00:37:25.850

TAPIA: mathematician, you just go, "Wow." Paul Cohen TAPIA: and Jerzy Neyman, and just all kinds of people, and and there I TAPIA: am. And do I belong? TAPIA: Um. I don't know.

00:37:25.880 - 00:37:44.210

TAPIA: But President Obama, when he gave out t TAPIA: he National Medal of Science, there were seven of us, he opened the discussion TAPIA: by saying, "All seven of you have done good research, but TAPIA: Richard Tapia has given to this nation in critical directions.

00:37:44.240 - 00:38:00.170

TAPIA: He's really worked at improving the representation of women and underrepresented TAPIA: minorities." And then he said, "I wish the other six of you would emulate what he's TAPIA: done." That's what Obama said. TAPIA: So then I told myself, "Well, maybe I belong, maybe I belong."

00:38:01.100 - 00:38:19.970

TAPIA: Maybe I don't, I don't know. TAPIA: But it's been a great life, except for, um...and TAPIA: I guess the hardest thing I've ever had to take was my 21 year old TAPIA: daughter's death.

00:38:20.840 - 00:38:35.390

TAPIA: See Jean, my wife, died at 81. TAPIA: She lived a full life, but Circee was 21, and TAPIA: she was intelligent, and she was beautiful, and she was everything. TAPIA: So that's the hardest thing for me to take.

00:38:35.390 - 00:38:50.190

TAPIA: That's the hardest thing for me to take. TAPIA: I try not to think of it too much. TAPIA: I try not to think of it too much. TAPIA: But I look at Rice students like today, and I said,

00:38:50.190 - 00:39:09.450

TAPIA: "I really like Rice students." I really do. TAPIA: Now, do I like them more than Stanford? TAPIA: Undergraduates, yes. TAPIA: But the Stanford students, as you know, Stanford is a graduate school, Rice is an

00:39:09.450 - 00:39:25.120

TAPIA: undergraduate school. When I taught graduate classes at Stanford, they were the TAPIA: best classes I've ever taught. TAPIA: I mean, they were they were really good. TAPIA: Anyway.

00:39:27.870 - 00:39:45.750

SONG: So I'm actually curious as to some of the changes that SONG: you've seen to Rice over your years here as a professor. TAPIA: Well, there's been an incredible change at Rice. TAPIA: It used to be to the point where if you were in a

00:39:45.750 - 00:40:02.190

TAPIA: meeting and you raised the issue of, say, underrepresentation TAPIA: or women not being represented, TAPIA: they would look at you. TAPIA: I shouldn't ask you this, but

00:40:02.190 - 00:40:12.270

TAPIA: David Blackwell, do you know David? TAPIA: Okay. David Blackwell is the most distinguished Black TAPIA: mathematician in this country. TAPIA: He got his PhD at Illinois.

00:40:13.960 - 00:40:28.230

TAPIA: A lot of history, he went to the Institute for Advanced Study, but they kicked him out TAPIA: because he was Black. Then he went to Berkeley. TAPIA: But anyway, he and I were very close and he would tell me, TAPIA: "I can't say anything.

00:40:28.230 - 00:40:42.570

TAPIA: I mean, people will laugh at me." So in the early days, everything was nice. TAPIA: When I got taught at Rice in the 70s, I liked it and I liked the students. TAPIA: But there were topics you stayed away from. TAPIA: You didn't talk about this, and you didn't talk about that, and you didn't talk about

00:40:42.570 - 00:40:59.220

TAPIA: representation, and you didn't talk about those things. TAPIA: They were just topics everybody assumed didn't exist or didn't belong on campus. TAPIA: Okay, now it's pretty open and you can talk about things TAPIA: and, there's LGBTQ and then there's,

00:40:59.220 - 00:41:16.790

TAPIA: you know, whatever, and then there's Hispanic, and TAPIA: then there's domestic Hispanic, and Mexican, and there's Black and so TAPIA: things have become TAPIA: more open and people have become aware of that.

00:41:24.160 - 00:41:33.430

TAPIA: Rice does not do what Stanford does. TAPIA: Stanford is a model for California. TAPIA: Rice is not a model for Texas. TAPIA: It could be, but they don't know.

00:41:33.430 - 00:41:48.150

TAPIA: Whereas everybody knows that Stanford has become the model for underrepresentation TAPIA: in California. TAPIA: Rice is not. Rice could be the leading Hispanic institution. TAPIA: In almost the country, but certainly the state.

00:41:49.170 - 00:42:05.260

TAPIA: But they don't. TAPIA: Rice brags, here's data for both of you, TAPIA: Rice brags that there were 18% Hispanic in the freshman class. TAPIA: Okay. But you have to ask this: what percentage of the

00:42:05.260 - 00:42:22.330

TAPIA: senior class in Texas, the senior class, is Hispanic? TAPIA: It's 53%. TAPIA: So they're bragging at 18% and yet it's 53%. TAPIA: Now interestingly, the percentage of Black in Texas is

00:42:22.330 - 00:42:33.840

TAPIA: 11% and Rice is 10% Black. TAPIA: So Rice gets a star for Black and an F TAPIA: for Hispanic. TAPIA: But they don't know that.

00:42:35.400 - 00:42:48.690

TAPIA: So I've been a real pain in the ass. TAPIA: I mean, I have been a real pain over the years. TAPIA: In fact, David Leebron, when he stepped down, he had a TAPIA: video and he had a bunch of minorities on there, but he didn't have me.

00:42:48.690 - 00:43:04.680

TAPIA: And so I told David, I said, "David, I wasn't in your video because you were afraid TAPIA: of what I would say." And he goes, "That's exactly right. TAPIA: So I didn't put you in my video." That's cool. TAPIA: But then his wife, Ping and I are dance partners because he doesn't

00:43:04.680 - 00:43:25.380

TAPIA: dance and she does, so at every big affair, Ping is my dance TAPIA: partner, and we do merengues, TAPIA: I really have been, with Norman Hackerman, who was the TAPIA: president when I came, we had some hard encounters.

00:43:26.220 - 00:43:42.610

TAPIA: I mean, I was a non-tenured assistant professor. TAPIA: And the maids, and this is in your building, because that's where I was, TAPIA: the maids, it's what they called them, on Friday would bring me food like TAPIA: enchiladas and tacos and stuff.

00:43:42.610 - 00:43:53.740

TAPIA: And then they told me. TAPIA: "Well, our boss, the person who's in charge of TAPIA: facilities, is stealing from Rice. TAPIA: He's stealing from rice.

00:43:53.740 - 00:44:06.820

TAPIA: He loads up his truck and he steals from Rice" TAPIA: I say, "Well, can I talk to your boss? TAPIA: Not the high one. TAPIA: " And he came in, his name was, uh, Hilario Cruz, and

00:44:06.820 - 00:44:21.400

TAPIA: then they came back a week later and said, "Cruz has been fired because he talked to TAPIA: you." So I said, "Okay." Now, I was an assistant professor at level TAPIA: zero. I said, "I've got to go to the president. TAPIA: " So I went to the president and he was so upset.

00:44:22.000 - 00:44:39.210

TAPIA: He said, "You are really making trouble. TAPIA: You don't know what you're doing because this person is very well respected." TAPIA: And I said, "Well, I'm TAPIA: bringing you something that's extremely important." And so he said to

00:44:39.210 - 00:44:53.450

TAPIA: me, "Iou're an enemy of Rice." That's what President TAPIA: Hackerman said. And I said, "Fine, so be it. TAPIA: But I have to tell you. TAPIA: " And I went away and about two weeks later he called me.

00:44:55.310 - 00:45:07.220

TAPIA: And he never praised people. TAPIA: He just said to me. TAPIA: "The big boss has been fired. TAPIA: And Cruz has been reinstated with back pay.

00:45:07.250 - 00:45:20.000

TAPIA: " And then he said to me, this is a long time ago, TAPIA: "I like your style. TAPIA: I'm going to nominate you to the National Science Board." Because he was president of TAPIA: the National Science Board.

00:45:20.770 - 00:45:28.960

TAPIA: And he did. TAPIA: But what's the chance of an assistant professor level zero getting onto the TAPIA: National Science Board? Zero. TAPIA: But he did nominate me.

00:45:28.990 - 00:45:39.070

TAPIA: I didn't make it. TAPIA: 25 years later, I made it. TAPIA: So he gave me a good feeling. TAPIA: Everybody was afraid of Hackerman.

00:45:39.070 - 00:45:53.580

TAPIA: And they didn't like him, but he and I TAPIA: had a mutual respect. TAPIA: And my wife liked him. TAPIA: Now, when I was selected for a university professor,

00:45:54.210 - 00:46:08.030

TAPIA: this was 2005, I told David Leebron I wanted a TAPIA: reception at his house. TAPIA: I don't want it at Cohen House, I want it at your TAPIA: house. At the reception.

00:46:08.030 - 00:46:25.000

TAPIA: I was starting to talk and the door opened and I saw him, TAPIA: and it was Norman Hackerman. TAPIA: He had driven in from Austin at the age of 94. TAPIA: And he opened the door and I said to everybody, "Oh, there's

00:46:25.000 - 00:46:35.920

TAPIA: President Hackerman. TAPIA: He and I used to disagree. TAPIA: " And from the door he said, "Disagree. TAPIA: Hell, we used to fight." And, we had a nice cordial

00:46:36.370 - 00:46:48.880

TAPIA: relationship until he died. TAPIA: And my wife liked him, too. TAPIA: But most people say he was too hard to deal with. TAPIA: But he was a scientist, and he was a very, very good scientist.

00:46:48.880 - 00:47:03.630

TAPIA: He's a chemist. And so he understood fairness and TAPIA: things. So he was just sort of TAPIA: abrupt. TAPIA: I've known five presidents

00:47:03.630 - 00:47:20.030

TAPIA: and I'm as fond of Hackerman as I am of any of them. TAPIA: That's it. And so, you know, there I was, and everybody was saying, "Oh, Tapia will TAPIA: never get tenure. TAPIA: Never get tenure, because look at what he's doing." And I remember people telling

00:47:20.030 - 00:47:33.910

TAPIA: me, "Aren't you afraid of not getting tenure? TAPIA: " And I go, "If I don't, I don't. TAPIA: " But this is a rhetorical question, TAPIA: at Rice, it's rhetorical, you don't have to answer.

00:47:34.450 - 00:47:43.590

TAPIA: How long did it take me to get tenure? TAPIA: Do you want to guess? TAPIA: Do you want to guess? SONG: I wouldn't know.

00:47:43.830 - 00:47:59.430

TAPIA: It's usually six years. TAPIA: I got it in two years. TAPIA: Let's see, in '76, in six years, I was full professor. TAPIA: So those things that everybody was worried about

00:48:00.600 - 00:48:14.230

TAPIA: me, they didn't hurt me. TAPIA: The national scene I'm fair. TAPIA: I mean, I know so many people in the national scene that I respect and TAPIA: I'm fond of.

00:48:15.270 - 00:48:31.920

TAPIA: Like my book, the introduction is written by Rita Colwell, and Rita Colwell is one of the TAPIA: greatest women scientists in the country. TAPIA: And she and I are TAPIA: friends. And when I was on the National Science Board, she was the director after

00:48:31.920 - 00:48:44.000

TAPIA: Neal Lane. And I did her some favors. TAPIA: You know, there's politics and everything involved. TAPIA: And I did her some favors. TAPIA: So I asked Rita, I want you, Rita.

00:48:44.060 - 00:48:57.620

TAPIA: So here's what I said on the foreword to my book. TAPIA: I want a great scientist. TAPIA: I want a woman. TAPIA: And I want a white woman.

00:48:57.620 - 00:49:07.900

TAPIA: And that was Rita Caldwell. TAPIA: So I called Rita, "Rita. TAPIA: I want you to write the foreword." "Fine, I will," and she did. TAPIA: So that's it.

00:49:07.900 - 00:49:17.320

TAPIA: I mean, that's it. TAPIA: That's who I am. TAPIA: I like who I am, you know, I asked my wife once. TAPIA: My wife was really feisty.

00:49:17.320 - 00:49:27.800

TAPIA: I mean, she was Puerto Rican. TAPIA: I said, "Jean, do you think I'm a pain in the ass? TAPIA: " And she goes, "Pretty much so, yeah. TAPIA: Pretty much so."

00:49:30.500 - 00:49:46.220

MANCHESTER: Okay. Well, so I think that's about the time that we have, MANCHESTER: but I know we haven't like touched on many of the things that we have on this MANCHESTER: list, but I didn't want to put you off because you were saying good things. TAPIA: Well, when I start going, I go, okay.

00:49:46.220 - 00:49:58.220

MANCHESTER: So we may call you back at some point TAPIA: That's fine. Look, you know, I made a special effort to TAPIA: get here because I wanted to do this. TAPIA: I've been diagnosed with liver cancer.

00:49:59.650 - 00:50:17.140

TAPIA: And so I come in, like last Thursday I did. TAPIA: But I made a special effort to be here because I like these kind of things. TAPIA: The one thing that Rice people don't understand enough is about visibility. TAPIA: Visibility. There are some great people here as

00:50:18.070 - 00:50:33.630

TAPIA: faculty, but they're not visible at the national level. TAPIA: They just don't know how to get national visibility. TAPIA: Rice is not a school, I mean, National Academy TAPIA: of Science, we don't have our share.

00:50:33.630 - 00:50:47.810

TAPIA: And so Rice is not a school that promotes itself at that level that it should. TAPIA: I mean, we're not Stanford, but we're a good school. TAPIA: And your department is a very good department. TAPIA: It's always been one of the better departments.

00:50:50.590 - 00:51:03.020

TAPIA: Do you know who was the first TAPIA: African American to get a degree at Rice, and in what department? TAPIA: Yeah. MANCHESTER: Raymond Johnson, a PhD in math.

00:51:03.020 - 00:51:16.350

TAPIA: Yeah. And Raymond and I were very close. TAPIA: You know who directed his thesis? MANCHESTER: Um, I'm blanking on his name. MANCHESTER: The same as Frank Jones.

00:51:16.530 - 00:51:28.400

TAPIA: Yes. That's correct. TAPIA: Jim Douglas. MANCHESTER: Jim Douglas that's right, that's correct. TAPIA: Jim Douglas once told me that Frank Jones was the smartest student he

00:51:28.400 - 00:51:42.600

TAPIA: ever had. MANCHESTER: Okay. thank you so much. SONG: Yeah, thank you so much. TAPIA: No, my pleasure.