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My name is Norie Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fondren Library Rice University. I am interviewing singer songwriter Richard J Dobson. Today is November 4th 2016. This is for the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. So, could you tell me a bit about your early

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life? I was born in, in East Texas in uh in Tyler, Texas, but I don't have any connection to the place. Uh uh My father was a shell engineer and uh and uh in Kilgore, which had no hospital, which is why I went to Tyler, why

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I came out in Tyler. And uh he, uh he joined the Navy after Pearl Harbor and was gone for a while and he came back. Uh um We grew up in Houston, Corpus Christi, mostly back and forth. And, uh I went to parochial schools and fairly

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a lot of moving around. But, uh other than that, pretty much a normal, normal upbringing. And, uh, let's see, where do we, uh because I jumped to high school, I went to, I went to Saint Thomas High School for two years here in, here in Houston.

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And, uh, and then my father was transferred to Indonesia to Sumatra. Yeah, since Shell was a Dutch company and and Indonesia was originally at one time a Dutch colonial possession. So uh he was out there for about two or three years. So uh there, there been

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no schools there. Uh My sister and I went to New Mexico where my mother is from and I went to boarding school in Santa Fe at Saint Michael's high school where I graduated in 1960. And uh uh my parents came back from uh Indonesia, uh about

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19, sometime in the 1960. That was, that was when, uh Kennedy was uh inaugurated. I was, uh I went to Georgetown University for a couple of three years and, uh I, I think it's worth noticing and mentioning. Uh, then I, I, uh I was, uh, I

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watched, uh Kennedy get into a limo and go off to be inaugurated that day. Bitterly Cold Day in Washington DC. So anyway, I didn't do too well at Georgetown. I, I, but I did get into music there. I was, uh II, I didn't even have a

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guitar yet, but II, I had, I became profoundly influenced by um folk music and, uh, and um, bluegrass very big there in Washington DC area with coming out of Virginia. And I listened to the band called The Country Gentlemen. And actually, I think that at the

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end of the day, that was more important to me than Georgetown education. And, uh, So, uh, after I left there I went to, then I went to South America and I was living in Colombia with the family down there and that was, I was there when

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Kennedy was assassinated down there. And then when I came back from Colombia, uh, the, uh, I wasn't really too, uh, academically oriented but, uh, the Vietnam War was, was kind of heating up and if you didn't, if you didn't want to stay in university, you had

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to take your chances, going to go fight a war. And I, you know, like most, a lot of people in my generation, I was not into that. And, uh, so I enrolled at the University of Saint Thomas here in, here in Houston. And, uh, III, I

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think I was 2.5 years, I guess at UST and I graduated in 66 from here. And, and then, uh, I went up to, uh, uh, went up to Michigan to, I was trying to, I was already very much into writing at that time. II, I

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did the, I edited the school literary paper, the magazine at Saint Thomas. And I, I was really wanted to be on my way to become a writer already then. And, uh, and I married my college sweetheart from, uh, Georgetown. I went up in Michigan and we

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went into the Peace Corps together and we went to Chile. And so for about a year and a half, I came back, uh, taught school for a year in Michigan. That was the longest I ever had a job. Yeah. And then my wife and I split

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up and, and, uh, I went to New York City to be a writer and I stayed in New York for about a half a year. A little bit less. Maybe. And then, um, I came, I, uh, I had a little bit of, a little bit of,

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uh encouraging news but, but maybe not quite enough to make me wanna stay in New York. And I came back, I was back down here in Houston and, and I, I thought I wanted to start on another book. And uh I don't know, I, I kind

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of wanted to go back out to New Mexico. So I did, I went out to New Mexico and I started, started to work on another literary project and I was living out in the country and I threw in with a bunch of hippies and we, we

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did, you know, the things that hippies did. And uh I kind of had I went through some transformations and I became more confident of my playing guitar playing because I started late, you know, you and uh with the time and then I had also, I had

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also heard of Kris Kristofferson who was the first person, uh a university educated person to make a career in country music. And I thought, you know what I think I can do that. So, I went to Nashville in, uh, 1972. So, when you moved to Nashville

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in 71 by that time, were you already kind of writing songs or was that a place where you really started to kind of hone your craft? I had a half a dozen songs written about that many, but I, I thought it would be better to learn

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on the spot. You know, I hadn't, I hadn't done a lot of songs. It was more just feeling a little bit more confident. And, uh, I had good luck when I first went there, the Guy Clark was one of the first people I met and, and,

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uh, he kind of took me under his wing and, uh, demoed one of my songs at first. Uh, I'll play that song later, but he demoed one of my songs like after I've been in town about two weeks, I thought, oh, this is gonna be ok.

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I was on my way. I thought. So, you got there in 71 and then you kind of traveled because you stayed there from 71 until about what time? I think I, I got married again in Nashville and I stayed there till about 74. But, you know,

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it's kind of hard to, to, you know, like you, you did mention there was an awful lot of going back and forth and, uh, nowadays it takes two days to get to Nashville. But back then we would go straight through and, you know, we usually got

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more than one driver or we had something that helps keep us awake. But, uh, uh, there was a lot of back and forth right with that. Do you think that, that kind, the kind of moving back and forth between Nashville and Houston? Do you think that,

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that there was advantages to doing that for you, for your career? Or was it more just, I think it was more just, uh, it was just more, well, for one thing, my parents lived here in Houston again by that time. So that, that was our kind

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of, our home base was here. So it was natural to come back more often. But other than that, uh, we would, we just kind of traveled around as on a lark, you know, gas was cheap, but we didn't really have too much responsibility. So it wasn't

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a big deal. We thought, ok, let's go to Texas, you know, and hang out for a few days and go to the folk festival and hang out and then go back, things like that. So around, I guess filming for Hart Highway started around 74 75 is

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that I think it probably started after 75. Uh, the reason I know this is because, uh, I was with Townes Van Zandt, and Rex Bell and Mickey White and a bunch of people. I was on the road with them up in, uh, in Jackson Wyoming, uh the New

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Year and I don't think that film had been started. So it must have started after 75. Ok. Well, then let's check back then to the trip through the Rocky Mountains. What was that like? Oh, that was crazy. Uh I think even then I had an idea

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that, that, uh, that, that what was going on was, was noteworthy, you know, and I, I never had really given up my idea of, of being a writer or a prose writer and, and, and, you know, that kind of storyteller. And, uh I had it even

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in the back of my mind, then it would be cool to write a book about this or at least take some notes. So I had a little cassette recorder, one of these little tiny things, you know, from that time and I, I, until I ran out

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of cassettes, II, I taped a lot of conversations on the bus on the, on the motor home that we were all staying in. And, uh, well, it was a pretty, it was, it was wild and crazy because, uh, and Townes was a notorious, uh, hell raising,

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uh, you know, heavy drinker. And so was everybody else of a like mind. So it was just kind of a, uh, uh, it was like a magical mystery tour with, with, uh, a little, it was a little bit heavy overtones of, you know, you know, crazy,

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crazy. But did um from what I remember reading from your book, is that on that tour you also became a lot more comfortable playing live. Mhm. Mhm. That too. I was kind of uh served of apprenticeship under, you know, I, I opened those shows or sat

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in with him. Right. And, uh yeah, it was a great experience for me. So then after that, then you're going back to Nashville and then the documentary is kind of started. What was that? Did you, at the time what did you kind of think about that

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experience about being part of that documentary? There was this, this fellow who died really young, uh named named Dennis Sanchez who was a friend of Townes. No, sorry. He was a friend of Guy's mostly. And uh and he, he, he was my roommate for a time

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in Nashville. We had a house there and he actually didn't stay in Nashville very long. But uh um I lost the thread of my conversation. Um You were, we were talking about the documentary? Oh, ok. Excuse me? Excuse me. He knew a friend named uh Jim.

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Uh, Szalapski, I cant remember how to pronounce it, but we know the fellow, the producer of the movie knew Dennis Sanchez, that was the connection. And through him, he, he uh I believe the film crew was French come to think about it. And uh and uh we just heard the rumor.

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Ok, well, Dennis would, had already gone. He may have already been dead and, uh, and so we just heard a rumor that there was gonna be a movie crew in town and they just wanted to, they were interested in the music and they wanted to, to

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shoot a, a movie. And so everybody said, OK, cool. But I think everybody was really nervous and everybody was, everybody was, uh, this drinking thing is, in those days drinking was cool. It was cool. You didn't try to hide it. It was like shit. Let's go

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get drunk. Like, so, you know, and nowadays it's kind of the opposite. Everybody's saying, oh, now, now everybody wants to kind of hide it. But in those days, nobody bothered. So when the movie came in, everybody said, uh, film crew coming and, you know, people do

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what they did anyway. So they just got drunk or got drunker. So there was a huge table and, uh, this bacchanal scene going on and, uh, and I think everybody was petrified of the cameras but they, they just kind of. So it was like a Rodney and

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Steve Earl and, and me and Susannah and Guy and another fellow, uh, Steve Young Steve Young. Yeah. Hey, you know, boy, it, it was like, it reminded me of the Rolling Stone, uh, uh, Beggars Banquet cover if you remember that just, uh, a display of, of

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craziness. But, but it was still some nice music and really nice performances came out of there too. So it was a pretty good picture of life in those days a little bit, you know, crazier side of it I guess. Mhm. No, I mean, those, some of those scenes in the movie

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I think have maybe just with time they have kind of like a, or the way that, um, he made them how he filmed them, they seem to sometimes kind of have a little bit of like a magical quality to it, especially like the, uh, the 'Silent

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Night' scene around the table. Yeah, which, you know, was probably just, it just kind of happens, but in the movie it's just like, oh, gosh, it's such a beautiful moment. I believe it was just a kind of a spontaneous thing. It may have been Rodney who

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did that, who started there. Yeah. Many of the people that you hung around with, um, Guy Clark Rodney Crowell, Steve Earle, et cetera that were there in Nashville, stayed there in a sense and you still kind of did that moving back and forth and then also

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coming back to Houston to record beyond shrimping boats, um, etcetera. So, what was it? I, I guess I kind of asked this before but since when you really start to kind of move back to Houston, what was that like, kind of knowing that world existed in

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Nashville and that you decided to stay in the folk scene that was still happening in Houston. Well, it was, uh, it was, it was really kind of, kind of the same, I mean, uh, the business is there in Nashville. The people over here, it's more of

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a scene, you know, and there were 2, 2, scenes here, at least that I wasn't involved in was one was the old quarter, the original old quarter downtown. And then the other was Anderson Fair, which is still kind of running to this day. And those were the

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two places that I gravitated to. And then also down in Galveston we played. But, uh, uh, Rex and II, I can't remember. I get my years scrambled up. But, uh, ok, let me think. Well, Rex and I had a place down in Galveston for a while

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and we, we were there with our wives and, uh, and that's when we started working on the shrimp boats. Yeah, that's, that, that's the connection. So, I don't know, Texas because of my family being here and because of, uh, I guess just growing up here and,

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and I really bonded to, to Galveston. I liked the salt water and in and, uh, what was it like? Gosh. No, I don't know he was, oh, I, I know another reason that drove me out of Tennessee was kind of like it was when Dennis died

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and then I broke up with my, my wife again and, uh, and that kind of ran me out of town a little bit. I didn't like being in Nashville after that. Too many reminders. So, and that's, that has happened that happened to me again. You know,

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the next time I'll split from Nashville. So, your first song if I have this right that you sold was "Piece of Wood and Steel", correct? Or did you sell one before that? Hm. Well, the, the first song that, uh, that, that, that was recorded was, uh,

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Baby Ride Easy. And that was, uh, that was actually the same song that Guy Clark recorded. The first, uh, the first time I got, I went to Nashville and, and as it turned out, this is a song that I wrote before I ever went to Nashville

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was one of the three or four songs that I had. And it's, it's ironic because that's the one that the cash, the cash and, and the, uh, ended up recording. So it's kind of a circular thing coming back. And, uh, would you feel comfortable playing that

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song? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's especially funny because, um, because, because I wrote it on a drilling rig out in the Gulf offshore Louisiana. And it was just, it's kind of dull and drudgery being a roustabout out there. And, uh, and I, I tore off a

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piece of sack from a drilling, drilling mug and wrote it on the back of that. And it, and it was a joke. It's still a joke. But it, it, it, it brought me more than all the serious songs I was trying to write. Yeah. So, um,

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the first verse is here a truck driver and a waitress. And the second verse is a bull fighter and a, and the third verse is the president and the first lady. So he said it's called Baby Ride Easy. If I drove a truck, you were a waitress, I asked for

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coffee. You poured me some. Then I'd stop by on my way sometime later. When we'd arm wrestle, could you say that you won. Ieee my baby, ride easy, ride high in the saddle all day. If your lovin' is good and your cookin' ain't greasy. Hitch up the chuck wagon, we'll ride away. If you were winsome pale senorita and I a bull-fighter down in the sand. While the band kept on playing that old Paso Doble would you throw me a flower?

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Would you give me your hand? Whoa, Ieee my baby, ride easy, ride high in the saddle all day, If your lovin' is good and your cookin' ain't greasy, Hitch up the chuck wagon and we'll ride away. I sang this one for a lot of presidential administrations Ford Nixon and Reagan, and god knows who else. Well I ran the country, you could be my first lady. You could fix

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up the White House while I was away. Waitin' while im passin' time with world leaders and later, together, alone we might lay. Ieee my baby, rise easy, ride high in the saddle all day. If your lovin' is good, and your cookin' ain't greasy. We'll hitch up the chuck wagon and we'll ride away. Ieee my baby, ride easy, ride high in the saddle all day. If your lovin' is good, and your cookin' aint greasy, Hitch up the chuck wagon and we'll ride away. So

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thank you. Thank you so much. So when you were in Houston actually, what was it like to sell that song? Well, the uh when they say sell a song, they, they don't normally sell them. They get a, a, a A pub, a publishing contract and that, that song

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was uh was, was published by a company, the same company, the Guy I was writing for when I first, that first week I went to, went to Nashville. So it wasn't really sold but it was, it was like, it belonged to them. It's there and that

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company was called Sunbird Dunbar. And after that I didn't know I no longer owned it but I didn't really sell it. But, uh, and in all those years it's been in that company. Right. So you get a percentage every time the, normally the, uh, the, uh,

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a copywriter, if it's a whole pie, you know, normally the, the, the publisher is getting half and the writer is getting half. Ok. So if the writer, uh, uh, well, it's, it's pretty fair but it, it, that's, I, that's the ideal situation, but how it works

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in reality could be different. Um, so when you moved back to Houston, you said that you played at the Old Quarter and at Anderson Fair. Can you talk about those kind of different scenes? Sure. Sure. Um, it's kind of a, well, those were the, those were

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the hippy years, you know, the drug years, you know, uh, the old quarter was a little bit darker and that was where the heavier drugs were actually. And so there were people who would go, who hung out at the, the old quarter was downtown. Old dilapidated

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was kind of dark and scary. It was bikers around a lot of whinos around. It was kind of, it was kind of a little bit slightly scary. I mean, I wasn't scared but I mean, you know, but women could be scared girl. I mean, it was like,

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it was kind of a creepy neighborhood in a way and, uh, and like in, in the sometimes people were nodded out in the, in the club, you know. So it was a little bit of a darker scene in, at Anderson Fair was, uh, well, a little

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bit more in the montrose area was a little bit better, a little bit better neighborhood. It was kind of a, of a bohemian neighborhood but a little bit cleaner and, and the, and the, and the people there were, uh, were, uh, I think I didn't know them

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all that well, but, uh, they were, they were like more, more, more middle class or, or, or a little bit more affluent or, or it was just a little bit different scene but they were, uh, they were not, there was no heroin around that might have

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been the difference. But the kids were, the kids were really good. People were, there was quite a bit of a pot smoking going on there and a lot of wine drinking and a lot of, and, and some alcohol but there was no, there was no, no

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hard drugs, uh, psychedelics. There were, but there was, there was, uh, to my knowledge there was no heroin around there and that kind of seemed to make the difference. That was one of the big, uh, one of the big differences in that but the music was

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pretty much the same. Uh, except that at the old quarter of the original old quarter, a lot of visiting bands from out of town would go down there, uh, you know, whoever happened to be playing at Liberty Hall would go down to the old quarter afterwards.

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And that, that wasn't really so much true of Anderson Fair. Yeah, it seems kind of like Anderson Fair was more of a, perhaps a little bit more insular could be. And they were, they were political, they were kind of, of, uh, progressive left wing, uh, kind

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of what kind of folks? Walter Spinks was one of the owners and he was, he still to this day is pretty, pretty. Do you know him? Yeah. We're friends on Facebook. So, yeah. Yeah, he's typical. Mhm. And, uh, I got in with that crowd because II,

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I later, I became friends actually, she became my, my partner for some years with, uh, with Lyse Moore. And, and then when I, when I started going with Lyse then I, I got to know the people at the fair better filled in a little bit of

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the background that I didn't really know about. At first it was just kind of, more of a place to go play and then I got to know the people better when I got with her. So when did you start contributing to Omaha Rainbow? Well, and see

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if I can get the trail. Uh I was in England and uh and I was visiting, uh I was visiting a guy named Mayo Thompson. If you know about him, there was another very seminal band here, but it was very avant-garde, he would hate me for

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saying that, experimental music that the Red Creola. So I was at his house in, in London. No, he was in Banbury and uh and he, he told me about Peter O'Brien and Peter O'Brien is the Englishman who started the fanzine Omaha Rainbow. And I got

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to meet Peter. And then about that same time in the late seventies, I was, I had started my uh newsletter which was Poor Richard's newsletter at the time. So, after I met Peter over there in England, we became friends and then I, I started sending in

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my newsletter and, and he put them in the Omaha Rainbow. Well, it was through Peter that I met another writer and uh a poetry performer, mostly uh uh Roxy Gordon who lived up in Dallas. So uh I, I actually met and I became very, very tight

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with Roxy, but actually I met him through an Englishman. So, and uh um so where, where were we? I, I keep getting on these circular things and I forget where I began. You're fine. You're fine. I was just asking about contributing to Omaha Rainbow. Omaha. Omaha

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went on for, for a good number of years, I kept my stuff there and, and that was very, uh, very, uh, uh, advantageous to me in a kind of a, uh, again, certainly was sort of a way because European music fans, we're reading Omaha Rainbow. And

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after, uh, and then when I made my first record, my first LP here in, here in Houston with Ruth Rock Romano. And then I, I put it out myself and then I know it was on, it was on Buttermilk, actually, it was on Buttermilk. And uh

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I started getting these overseas records, record orders and I was selling records in Europe. Hey, but that was the seed, I think that started uh my European fan base or, or that's how in the, our music is really not really all that popular. It's pretty much

00:30:53.390 - 00:31:08.890

niche music, at least it was and still is. I think that the people communicate about it. People like David John, the fellow that I'm staying with now and they network a lot and that's, that's how the work got out. And that's kind of the beginning of

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my, to my, uh to my own making, selling records to eventually touring over there. Right. Yeah. So I guess the newsletter through Omaha Rainbow and then just your own, your personal newsletter was a good way to connect with the fans. Yeah. And, and it was a

00:31:27.430 - 00:31:40.420

good way to keep because I was really wanting to play music and learn music and write and maybe come up with a hit country song or something, you know, and that was my main game plan but it was a way of keeping the, uh, journalism and

00:31:40.430 - 00:32:05.189

the prose going. Ok, you just kind of keep my, keep in practice a little bit and it just developed into its own thing. And, uh, now it's a lifetime habit. Mhm. Um, let's see. Can you talk about, um, those early records that you made those first

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two that you made here in Houston? Uh, I made them both with Rock Romano and, uh, the first one was, um, I can't really, I can't even remember the studio. I think it was in Bellaire and I just, I just kind of did it, like I

00:32:25.050 - 00:32:39.900

had seen my, my friends do them in Nashville with the demo sessions and, you know, which was like, we get a band together and teach them the songs and roll the tape, you know, and we, we did it mostly live and it was a learning experience.

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Totally still is. And, and, and a fascinating one. It, it, it just that point where a song becomes a record that you can put on and reproduce the sound. It's really, it fascinates me to this day, you know. And, uh, let's see, the second record was

00:33:02.150 - 00:33:20.910

well up, the first one went pretty good. So, ok, let's make another one. So we started, we started the next one with, uh, with Rock and uh, that was called the Big Taste. And that was a big taste was slang for real good marijuana, by the

00:33:20.920 - 00:33:40.979

way. Oh, ok. Ok. All right. That makes sense. And it was code. Ok. And I started out with Rock and then he got busy. I, I ended up finishing it out of Sugar Hill Studios with a man named Mickey Moody. Then he come and we got

00:33:40.989 - 00:33:53.969

it finished and then we, we put that one out. The first, that one, we uh I tried to make it kind of like a little art project. And we uh we uh a friend of mine named in town named Tom Bridges. It was uh it was,

00:33:55.420 - 00:34:13.360

he was doing color Xerox and messing around with that. And I said, well, let's, we'll get, we'll make uh color Xeroxes and hand hand, paste them onto the LP S and then have them shrink wrapped and then number and sign them and then have them shrink

00:34:13.370 - 00:34:29.320

wrapped. And we did that with the 1st 200. So it was, that was kind of like a little art project. At the same time, I was living in Galveston and we put that one out and you were also working um offshore during that time. Was it,

00:34:29.330 - 00:34:48.560

was it kind of because it seems like there, it's two different very, in my mind, it seems like two very different worlds, right? Coming into Houston and playing and things and then also working offshore like, were there, were there a lot more connections? Well, it was

00:34:48.570 - 00:35:08.030

kind of a, a schizophrenic existence, I guess. But was two things. Uh, one is, one is I really like, I'm kind of an outdoor person and I'm not really, uh, I never could work in an office and I never could really work for organizations too much.

00:35:08.040 - 00:35:22.919

And, but I like being outside and I like the ocean. I like the gulf. It's just like, uh, and, uh, and that, uh, that provided me the opportunity to work out there in a, in a place I liked, I hated the oil rigs, but I loved

00:35:22.929 - 00:35:37.510

the boats but it was, it was all, it was a money thing too. You could make pretty good money out there in those days. You probably still can because you work 12 hour days. So, after you and you easily work seven days. So, after you, about,

00:35:37.520 - 00:35:59.270

if you, after your third day pretty soon you're, you're after 40 hours, just a little after three days, you're already on overtime. So your checks were pretty good. And, and another really interesting thing was you're clean out there. Ok. Yeah, you're working hard and you're clean

00:35:59.280 - 00:36:20.060

and there's really good food and really good food and, and it's, it's, it's people who live here who just continually drinking and drugging and partying and don't ever get a break. And I think it gave me a break. So, in the end it made me more

00:36:20.070 - 00:36:37.060

healthy and working out there. And then was that time usually very productive for you? Creatively? Not too much. Occasionally. Some stuff like that Baby Right Easy song occasionally. And II, I would try to keep some kind of journal, a notebook but it's usually too tired to

00:36:37.070 - 00:36:56.209

really do anything. But, uh, I, I used to carry my guitar out there but I never really had much time to use it and you'd be too tired anyway. When, um, why did you make a more permanent move to Nashville in 85? Are you sure it

00:36:56.219 - 00:37:19.729

was 85? I think it's a little bit earlier. It's a little bit earlier. That's fine. Yeah, you can, you can check it. Um, well, that time by that time I had, I think I just wanted to give it another shot. Easy business. Yeah. Uh, I may

00:37:19.739 - 00:37:34.520

have had some luck with something too. Maybe, maybe Baby Ride Easy. Got recorded by Carlene Carter and I think it gave me a little shot in the arm. Carlene Carter and Dave Edwards recorded Baby Ride Easy. That might have had something to do with it. Uh,

00:37:34.530 - 00:37:49.820

and I, uh, I just wanted to do more and then I, by that time I was with Lyse and she was kind of at loose ends. So she said she would go, she would go to Nashville with me and we did, we went out there and tried

00:37:49.840 - 00:38:09.409

to make a new start together. And, and I got jumped back in the music business and, and, uh, gave it a pretty good shot, you know. Uh, still wasn't, I still didn't have much commercial success but I was, you know, I just felt like a, I

00:38:09.419 - 00:38:27.330

felt like I belonged there. You know, I felt like I had a shot. You know, can you talk about some of the music that you made there? The music, the music that you made, the songs that you wrote? I see what you do. Uh After uh

00:38:28.280 - 00:38:47.689

the next record was I think the next record was Save The World I made with Jim Rooney and Jim Rooney was a, well, he's a Yankee but he's OK. No, he's from, uh he's from up, up back east and he has roots in the, in the

00:38:47.699 - 00:39:04.649

folk world that are just amazing. He was involved with a lot of festivals and just a very, very central guy. And he ended up working with Jack Clement, famous producer also who did a lot of work with Townes and other people. And uh uh and so

00:39:04.659 - 00:39:25.020

we went and made a record at Jack Clement's studio. And uh well, should I had some of those records around me? So I can remember the songs I was working. You know, it's uh generally at the time, I was hoping to write songs that would be

00:39:25.030 - 00:39:43.540

picked up by a commercial country artist and then did um some of the work that you did in Nashville? Were those songs picked up? Not, not so much, not so much of a, a few. Uh Well, you, you mentioned earlier in the interview of a Piece

00:39:43.550 - 00:40:00.949

of Wood and Steel that was picked up earlier on by David Allen Coe and then, and then in this time, uh, uh, in the eighties, and then another song was picked up by Nanci Griffith and that was called Ballad of Robin Winter-Smith. Another, another off

00:40:00.959 - 00:40:18.129

the wall song. It seems like I have more luck with off the wall songs than I do with when I try to get serious, you know. And, uh, let's see, what else, what's going on there? Well, at that time I, I, uh, I met Pinto Bennett

00:40:18.139 - 00:40:36.500

while I was there. I used to, went out there and traveled around with him in Idaho and, and that was, that was another part of my musical education. What did you take away from working with him? Oh, honky to Honky Tonk experience. I was mostly a

00:40:36.510 - 00:40:55.239

folk singer but I got to sit in with a real, real western honky to band. And that was with pedal steel. And that was, that was part of my education too. Did you ever use that kind of influence for some songs later on? Sure. I would

00:40:55.250 - 00:41:18.489

try to write, write or try to write in that, in that genre, in that venue, you know, in those, in those ways, you know, like Yeah. Yeah, that was a very much so, yeah. Western swing a little bit. So why did you eventually move? You did

00:41:18.500 - 00:41:43.719

work in Nashville and also you did, um, an album of Townes music while you were there? Yeah, that's an interesting story. Uh I was uh, I have to be careful about this. This comes to be a history of my, my marriage just rather than the music.

00:41:43.739 - 00:42:05.060

Uh So I was, I live with, uh, with Lyse Moore and we lived outside of town in Williamson County. And, uh, when I started touring Europe and then I, uh, I was, I hooked up with this girl named Susie Monick. I played banjo, mandolin,

00:42:05.070 - 00:42:21.659

and, and she would, she had been one of the first all girl bluegrass bands and we got together. So then, uh, and then we had a little, little band and then we, we toured, made several tours of Europe and this, this band was called State of

00:42:21.669 - 00:42:42.189

the Heart. We stayed state of the art and then, uh, I got into altercation with the, uh, with the bass player. And, uh, and he, he ran the rent car over a thing about that high and, and gutted the rent car and it ended up, we,

00:42:42.199 - 00:43:01.439

we ended up with a huge bill and, uh, we never did get along after that. And the, and the band kind of split up and I was just, I was just furious and I, I just, I just wanted to put my head into some other project.

00:43:02.489 - 00:43:16.189

Something completely didn't have anything to do with me directly. And I, and in the, and one day the idea came to me that, you know, it would be really cool to make a record of Townes songs. So I got Jimmy Gray and, and, and, uh, and

00:43:16.199 - 00:43:33.919

Danny Roland, uh, two people that used to play with Townes and Susie and me and we went in the studio and one long day we cut all those songs and it was, that was great fun. And I'm real glad I did that. Did Townes work with

00:43:33.929 - 00:43:50.709

you on it at all, or? No, I just showed it to him with. He was, yeah, he was pretty surprised. Yeah, he was, yeah, I think I was the first one that ever did that I didn't get much credit for it. Nobody knew about it. It

00:43:50.719 - 00:44:12.820

came out on Brambus in Switzerland so nobody never knew about it. Ok. And then I, I know that he's pretty popular. He's, he also has kind of a, a large fan base in Europe. And so I assume that the record did pretty well well. They knew about Townes

00:44:12.830 - 00:44:35.050

on his own. He toured quite a bit in Europe. He, he, yeah, he was, uh, had a devoted loyal people who cared about him a great deal, more literate fans naturally, I guess. So. Then kind of nash, when did your time at Nashville kind of come

00:44:35.060 - 00:45:01.260

to an end. Oh, ok. Well, I think it was, it was, it was in about the mid nineties and then by that time the storytelling, traditional country stuff was, it was gone. The scene had changed yet again, Garth Brooks was in ascendancy. Uh, the big money

00:45:01.270 - 00:45:18.620

was rolling in and, I mean, it was, it would, it just wasn't, I didn't feel like it was my time anymore. And then, uh, uh you know, it was like another relationship had busted up. By that time I knew I wanted to get back to writing

00:45:18.629 - 00:45:37.250

prose. I always said I want to write a damn book. So I and my parents had a place in Jamaica Beach. So, and they were getting old and uh I had a chance to go live there and let them use that house for another couple of

00:45:37.260 - 00:45:52.679

years because I was there keeping it up and I, when they'd come, I carry their stuff upstairs and, and, you know, it was a good kind of like symbiosis going on where I could use the place and have a place to live and write. And then

00:45:53.040 - 00:46:15.379

the woman that I'm married to now, uh and we had known each other for over 10 years and she exchanged uh photos and stuff like that. And uh uh I didn't, I, I wasn't really trying to encourage it because I didn't see any way it was

00:46:15.389 - 00:46:29.840

gonna work. But long story short, she ran away and flew to Texas, flew to Houston and I picked her up and we lived together on the beach for almost a year. She had to go back once or twice and we lived together on the beach for

00:46:29.850 - 00:46:48.889

about a year at the house. And then, uh, so anyway, I was no longer in Nashville, in other words, so it was about the late nineties when I left Nashville. So when I left to uh come to the beach house, I didn't go back to live

00:46:48.899 - 00:47:07.800

in Nashville again. And is that when you were starting to work on Gulf Coast boys? That's when I worked there on the Gulf Coast Boy manuscript. I wrote that in Galveston, Galveston. I own it. It's kind of my, it's kind of my symbolic home anyway. Right.

00:47:08.159 - 00:47:25.590

So was that, was that an easy process? Was it difficult? Um Because I've in your journals, it looks like you've gone back through them and made marks and picked out pieces that you might, it could be, you might have run across uh some notes that of

00:47:25.600 - 00:47:41.489

stuff. I was pulling out of my. See, I use the journals for newsletters. 00, is it for newsletters or, or maybe not so much for newsletters, but I may have gone back to those journals to pull out. Uh uh thingss for the book. And so was

00:47:41.500 - 00:48:03.879

that kind of an easy process to work through or did it kind of? Yeah, I, I didn't have any problem with that. No. II, I really liked working on that book. And how long did it take to write? I don't remember. It couldn't have been too

00:48:03.889 - 00:48:20.810

long, maybe a few months. Ok. Ok. And then when did you go ahead and then move to Switzerland? Well, there again, it was kind of back and forth, you know what I mean? It was, it was the same thing, you know, like leaving Nashville for Texas,

00:48:20.820 - 00:48:42.989

sometimes I would take three or four moves back and forth before I realized, you know, uh, when, uh, uh, Edith had to go back to, to Switzerland and take care of business and stuff. I don't know. But she, she was, she had grown kids, I mean,

00:48:43.000 - 00:48:57.129

you know, it was like a, a big shock, you know, she's just shocked her, her whole family and everything just, just ran away to, just got on an airplane and flew to Texas. So, and there was a lot of business to take care of and then

00:48:57.139 - 00:49:13.040

there was a divorce and then there was, and then, and that cost a lot of money and, you know, she did, she said, I don't have the money to pay this lawyer. And, uh, she went to the social and somebody said, well, look, there's a social

00:49:13.050 - 00:49:30.590

agency that can help you. And then, and then she went there and, and, and talked to them and the guy said, uh, I think we can use somebody like you. So, she came home and she said they gave me a job. So now, uh, I thought,

00:49:30.600 - 00:49:45.110

oh, ok. And I thought, well, it's just, I think I'll just, we're not going back to the beach. Uh, you know, by that time I think my parents were getting ready to sell the place anyway. So I said, ok, we'll live together in Europe. There's a

00:49:45.120 - 00:50:13.409

new adventure, a new wife, a new, new uh new partner anyway. And we're still together now. And uh so that began my European chapter like a new life. You know, this is a song that uh I wrote in the, in the eighties. OK. When I was

00:50:13.419 - 00:50:36.270

in Tennessee, I was, this isn't one of those um country songs that I was. This one that came to me from the book, you know, Thomas McGuane, I don't, he's a writer, novelist. You wrote a book called Nobody's Somebody's Nobody's Angel, I think. And there was

00:50:36.280 - 00:50:52.120

a woman and he described a woman in there who, a Cheyenne Indian woman whose body was stuck up with thimbles on the fingers. And it was such a striking image that it came back to me about six months after I read the book and it just

00:50:52.129 - 00:51:47.629

got tears in my eyes and really, I made it kind of made up the story and this was recorded by a few people. When the wind blew off the mountain, when the clouds were sweeping low, when a ragged band of Cheyenne Indians stopped along the road, And among them was a young girl who lay dying of fever, just about a hundred years ago. Whooooa, The light was swiftly fading, and the night it promised snow, They wrapped her in an army coat

00:51:48.620 - 00:53:20.899

to keep her from the cold, placed silver thimbles on her fingers so someone's god would know She was a useful girl who could sew, whoaaa, she could sew. And Darkness swirled around them like a curtain on a stage, like the closing of a door or the turning of a page They say a lifetimes over in the twinkling of an eye, It dont count for harldy nothing as the ages roll on by, While kings and queens and princes have left mighty works in stone. Just to let somebody know, Whooooa, somebody know

00:53:21.020 - 00:54:54.969

Thats how the workmen found her when they were widening the road, Wrapped up in an army coat where they laid her long ago, Silver Thimbles on her fingers she slept beneath the snow, A useful girl who could sew, Whooooa, she could sew, The darkness swirled around them like a curtain on a stage, Like the closing of a door or the turning of a page, The wind blew off the mountain and the clouds were sweeping low, When a ragged band of Cheyenne Indians stopped along the road, Among them was a young girl who lay dying of fever, just about a hundred years ago, Whooooa, hmmmm, Whooooa, and she could sew, So

00:54:55.570 - 00:55:14.889

since you're now in Switzerland, how would you describe being a Texas singer songwriter overseas that experience? What is that like? Well, it has a, it has a certain, um, it, it has a certain ii, I can't remember the word. It has a certain advantage, I think

00:55:14.899 - 00:55:34.239

in a way because Texas is quite well known, you know, Texas, the, the image of Texas is almost as well known as McDonald's Arches and the cross. So, yeah. And I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not really adverse to, I'm not a professional Texan and

00:55:34.250 - 00:55:51.050

I don't really write songs about how great it is to come from Texas and stuff like that. But I'm not beyond taking advantage of the, of the, of the, of the fact that Texas music is appreciated because I'm part of that scene and I, and, uh,

00:55:51.060 - 00:56:09.830

so I'm entitled to it. Yeah. And so, yeah. Uh, it's, it's kind of funny uh, one of my favorite, one of the best songwriters I think working in the English language is, uh, David Olney has a misfortune of coming from Rhode Island, which is the tiniest

00:56:09.840 - 00:56:25.429

state in the country and you don't get much, uh, mileage out of that. But, I mean, coming from Texas just kind of a, a little bit of a natural, uh, a little bit of a natural, uh, loot. Mhm. Mhm. So, is there a difference between the

00:56:25.439 - 00:56:49.879

fan bases in Europe compared to here in the States? A little bit, uh, the way II I got into, uh, into the, the, this, you know, when Americans go to Europe, uh, it's, it's kind of funny they get adopted by different countries and those, and the

00:56:49.889 - 00:57:14.239

fans over there, the, there's huge music fans in, in the Netherlands and in England and in Germany and in Italy and in Switzerland. But they don't communicate with each other. So, if an American artist lands in the Netherlands. Oh, yeah. See, there's a guy can't think

00:57:14.250 - 00:57:30.290

of his name there. He lived there for years. But, uh, David Rodriguez. Yeah. See, I mean, there's a good example, he landed in the Netherlands so he, he's pretty well known there but nobody in Switzerland knows about David Rodriguez. Kind of like that. I landed in

00:57:30.300 - 00:57:49.659

Switzerland because of Edith. And, um, but that they had a group of, uh, they had a group of, of, of, of very knowledgeable people. About our, our music appreciation of the, the art of songwriting and the craft, craft behind it and the story and the history

00:57:49.669 - 00:58:07.169

and they know all this stuff. And, uh, and those are the people that were kind of like in my fans. And this is, this is about 20 years ago or 20 in, in Switzerland. This, it existed. Ok. You gotta also figure there's, there's people who are

00:58:07.179 - 00:58:22.179

country fans who like to dress up and play cowboy. You see, and when we first went over there and started touring, we were going look at that, you know, you could see people with, with six guns and, and actually in, in England it got so bad

00:58:22.189 - 00:58:42.929

that you would be doing a concert and then people be firing off blank pistols in the middle, you know, and I see people in Confederate, uh, in Confederate officers, uniforms strolling around in the festival. You know, it's, it's a bit of a make believe, dress up

00:58:42.939 - 00:59:03.270

costume kind of a thing. So to me, uh, that's different. I mean, when you go, people, people wear boots and hats here in Texas because it's just a regular part of the apparel. You know, it's not a conscious, it's not a style, a statement of, of

00:59:03.280 - 00:59:25.489

style necessarily or not so much. So there's that and, uh, lately, uh, which is not, which I, I really, you know, I don't despise it but it's, it's really doesn't have much to do with the music and it, it works against songwriters is the line dancing

00:59:26.330 - 00:59:40.129

and they like to dress up and they like to line dance and I'm sure they, they have a lot of fun with it, you know, but they're not music fans and they don't really care about songwriters because they have choreographed uh, routines that they do with

00:59:40.139 - 00:59:58.520

the country music. So country music performers kind of tend to become, uh, an adjunct to the dancing scene and I don't have anything to do with that. You know, I'm a songwriter or a folk singer, you know, that's, this gets too far away from me. So

00:59:58.530 - 01:00:12.719

that's, that's kind of what you got there as fans in Europe. And it could go either way you could get, you could get really knowledgeable people who would know about your scene and, and about the songwriters and stuff or you could get the yahoos that would

01:00:12.729 - 01:00:38.699

like to just dress up, it can run the gamut. Right. That's really interesting. Um, so what are you working on now? And right now I'm, uh, I'm still working on, on my music. It's, it's kind of, uh, uh, well, it's frustrating but, uh, you can't sell your C

01:00:38.709 - 01:00:52.540

DS anymore and that was about half our income or that, you know, you, you get the, the money you get to pay for a gig and then this, the C DS is kind of like your gas money or your motel money. And that's kind of vanished.

01:00:52.550 - 01:01:05.419

So that's, that's, that's tough. I mean, I still like to make records and, uh, you know, I'll be 75 in a few months. So, you know, I mean, I can see that this isn't gonna go on forever, you know. And I don't really have the power

01:01:05.429 - 01:01:24.919

to tour so much as I used to, but that I'm working on another record with some Swiss guys. Yeah. And I'm working on a novel and that's, that's been, that's been a source of a tremendous, uh, excitement to me. Uh, very challenging, different, different than the

01:01:24.929 - 01:01:50.040

other works. Do you wanna talk about that? Uh Yeah, it's about Galveston and, and it's about the 1900 Storm. I could tell you a long song about, tell you what the, what the, uh, what the part of the books out. That's fine. Yeah. Is that all

01:01:50.129 - 01:02:08.679

right? Yeah, I'll be her in here. I didn't prepare for this because it was too much to prepare for. I thought I'd just kind of do it off the cuff and hope for the best. And also I didn't bring my picks. So I'm kind of naked

01:02:08.689 - 01:02:46.570

fingers. 20th century had just begun. And i'm marrying my first husband Tom, he was my brave engineer, Railroad man and a sweetheart, dear. Courted me in Baton Rouge. We swore our love forever true. Followed work to Galveston, Settled there and built a home, Wood frame cottage near the beach on the hottest days. there was still a breeze and a

01:02:46.580 - 01:03:24.699

place that we couldn't call our own supper on work was done. We were young the, Those were good times, On the Island, There was sunshine, And our baby, Daily growing, and the knowing, all of this was mine. what came one dread September morning, A warning of a coming storm, Tom was called to work that daty, mend the bridge out on the bay when the winds began

01:03:24.709 - 01:03:57.379

to shriek and the rain came pouring down in sheets, orders to evacuate, leave the house without delay. On a second floor Tremont Hotel all around was roaring hell. In that, I began my labor pains with the midwife. On that wild night, came my first born, By Kerosene light, What a bad time, to

01:03:59.389 - 01:04:36.689

be bornin, in the morning, we were both alive. That afternoon when I came down, carrying my baby son, walked out through the ruined town, Passed the bodies of people drowned storm had blown our home away in the railroad bridge across the bay, cars and locomotive gone with my dear husband, Tom. All our lives, gone out

01:04:36.699 - 01:05:10.510

to sea all our simple hopes and dreams, With my baby in my arms, I said child, your name is Tom. We were rescued, Went to New Orleans, I never found my husband's family, Lived with my sister. I met a fine man. He was kind by us and waited patiently. Well so began another life. Children came and the

01:05:10.520 - 01:05:31.330

years went by looking at my oldest son, I would often think of Tom. My sister had a coffee shop where the people would like to stop and talk. Through the door a stranger came with a story from the hurricane. He told a tale how he'd survive by clinging to the

01:05:31.340 - 01:06:17.149

rail road tie. Is that you tom? I can't believe my eyes, Your wife and baby. They are still alive. We thought you long gone, she took another name. I could swear that boy's got your eyes. Well at a boat house by the Lake a clandestine secret meeting place, Tom came walking up the path, embraced me

01:06:17.159 - 01:06:35.219

and he held me fast. Smell a jasmine in the air, brushed my cheek and he touched my hair, told me he was also sweat without our love. And then we said we must go on with our new lives. It was for this reason we survived. Tell

01:06:35.229 - 01:06:59.649

me about my firstborn son, I said his name is Tom. Are you happy now? I said, Yes, I am. I am too I guess, this must be God's plan and promise me one thing I can see my son. I said of course Tom and it was done. We were young then

01:07:02.159 - 01:07:47.219

Those we're a good times. On the island, there was sunshine, And our baby daily growing and the knowing, all of this was mine. So that's the kernel of the, of the novel. And uh are you enjoying work? Do you enjoy? Have you enjoyed working on it? Yeah.

01:07:47.229 - 01:08:04.439

It's been a, a, an incredible uh I, I always, when I was way back when I wanted to write novels and I ended up writing memoirs. I didn't quite know the difference. I thought I'm writing an autobiographical novel. But I, like I have since learned that

01:08:05.419 - 01:08:20.220

there are things that you have to do in a novel when you're telling this type of a story and you have to, you have to build towards a certain climax. And, you know, and there's got to be a bad guy and I don't know who the

01:08:20.229 - 01:08:39.100

bad guy is in my story. It might be the storm. Yes. It's been a tremendous challenge and, and just getting to know these characters is, has been fascinating and I, I've had some help too because uh I should mention this in this context that uh lately

01:08:40.740 - 01:09:01.450

in the last 10 years. And uh I've met two people who are actually pulling off more or less. What was, has always been my dream, which is to, to do the music and make music and make CDs and, and play, play shows and at the

01:09:01.459 - 01:09:21.799

same time, write books and publish them. And those two people are uh Mike Blakely and who's a very accomplished songwriter and a novelist, award winning novelist and, and the other fellow is a Blakely's friend with WC Jamison, with whom I, I went ahead and made a,

01:09:21.810 - 01:09:41.750

made a record. So these new people in my life have been kind of uh late role models and being able to, to, to, to balance uh a prose writing career with a music career and II, I believe they feed off each other. Oh, that's interesting. That's

01:09:41.759 - 01:10:09.569

a good uh I'm glad you brought that up. Well, I is, I guess if you, as you look back on your career, are there any things that maybe we didn't discuss that stand out collaborations or we haven't talked about that. But um that's just kind of

01:10:09.580 - 01:10:25.399

a natural thing. Uh I collaboration, but I like to do that and I still did. It is a good way to. Uh, well, after you've written a couple of 100 songs, maybe, I don't know how many I've written altogether, but you kind of run, run out

01:10:25.410 - 01:10:40.729

of ideas and then that, that, then you can go and write with somebody else, you come up with fresh material and I know that Guy Clark did that almost exclusively at the end of his life. David Olney is one of the most brilliant songwriters and he,

01:10:40.740 - 01:10:55.410

he collaborates a lot and I've been doing it too. It's just a different, I enjoy that very much too. Is there? I guess there's just, does someone kind of come up with an idea or you guys work together at the same time or you kind of

01:10:55.419 - 01:11:13.089

email each other, that kind of thing? Everyone, everyone is different. Uh, in Nashville. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's in Nashville. They expect to, to write a song. They, you meet, you have a 10 30 writing appointment and they, when you for a couple hours and you're,

01:11:13.270 - 01:11:30.859

you're at the end, uh at the end you expect to have a, a song maybe demos. Yeah. It's, it's, it's that intense. That seems like a lot of pressure. But for me, no, it's, it's more like, uh, it's different every time I have a, I have

01:11:30.870 - 01:11:43.729

a co writing friend in, in uh in Germany that I work with and he sends me melodies and if I hear something I say, oh, that sounds like this. And then I make up a story. We've done a couple that way. Yeah, you can work all

01:11:43.740 - 01:11:54.939

kinds of different ways. OK. Thank you so much and thank you for um doing some songs and everything. It's been really nice. All right.