00:00:21.850 - 00:00:31.720

Hello, Dr. Byrd. Professor McDaniel, it's so great to see you. It's good to see you too. It's been, not that, it's been a long time.

00:00:31.720 - 00:00:42.620

Didn't I just see you in a Zoom meeting? It's been about six minutes in another Zoom meeting. (chuckles) I had my last class this morning of the semester.

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And I told my students not to take this the wrong way, because I was gonna miss them very much, it was a great group, but I was not gonna miss the hybrid Zoom bouncing back and forth.

00:00:56.350 - 00:01:05.160

Although, and one of the things is, when we have all our meetings on Zoom, right, if we were going from one meeting to another, we would have stood up

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and presumably walked to another place. Yeah. There's not much. Yeah. Contacts shifting.

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Not a whole lot of that. Some days I don't know if I stand. (chuckling) But the plus side of it,

00:01:19.730 - 00:01:31.180

it was the last day of class today. So it's kind of hard to believe, this semester is rushing to a close. I'm.

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Did you already have, you had your last earlier this week? My last class was Monday. Yeah.

00:01:36.440 - 00:01:47.420

So. So how does it feel? You're already in your board shorts, and ready to hit the beach, or? No, no, (chuckles)

00:01:47.420 - 00:01:56.460

but I'm thinking sometime after graduation. Yeah. Or, I'll start to feel it. I tend to give. Yeah.

00:01:57.790 - 00:02:04.430

Long due dates on assignments, so. Yes. Yeah. Stuff will come in just before graduation.

00:02:04.430 - 00:02:14.730

And. Yes. So I can't get too excited about the last day of class. True. And there's also this committee that we're a part of

00:02:14.730 - 00:02:23.060

that still has work to do. Yeah, I feel like (chuckles) there's that too. I felt some of that last night

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(chuckles) when I woke up at two. (laughing) Was it the thunder? although I thought it wasn't the thunder or the storm.

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Yeah, it was the storm outside, and then the storm in my mind. (laughing) So yes, yes indeed.

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Well, we still have "Doc Talks" and excited to be here with you today, excited to welcome our audience. Looks like we've got some regulars with us

00:02:51.420 - 00:03:03.190

so I almost don't have to remind you that we have a website at taskforce.rice.edu and you can also find our podcast there which is episodes of past Doc Talk webinars

00:03:03.190 - 00:03:17.310

that have been recorded with a debrief upended. I don't know if you noticed, like we've got some fans on Apple Podcasts, we had a very favorable review posted earlier this month,

00:03:19.660 - 00:03:33.140

I saw that, I think we have a couple of nice reviews on there and I agree with both of them. And at the time I was thinking of writing my own review.

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(laughing) Yeah. I think, it's not to toot our horn but to applaud the excellent work

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of our undergraduate media fellows who have been editing those and Keiko Lee who brings every webinar we do up a notch with the debrief. So, but, hope you all you'll continue

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to tune in over the summer as those will continue to be released. And you can join the conversation. I celebrated the last day of class this morning

00:04:03.610 - 00:04:15.380

by doing a version of Doc Talks in my Civil War history class, because we were talking this week some about the history of William Marsh Rice and the Civil War era,

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and in what ways are the origins of the Rice has to do perhaps even in the Civil War era, that was kind of the question we were considering. And I thought I'd share with this audience

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the document that my students were tasked with reading before coming to class today, and we were using this document as a primary source to try to answer a question

00:04:38.110 - 00:04:54.230

that we've considered before on the Doc Talk going back to some of our earliest meetings, which is what was William Marsh Rice's view on secession and the outbreak of the Civil War?

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I remember that we have grappled with that question, that seems like an appropriate question with which to end the class because it is not an easy question.

00:05:06.780 - 00:05:19.920

It's not an easy question, and although, if you look at the scholarship that's been published about William Marsh Rice, it's always been asserted as though it is a very simple question.

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And if you were to look up, let's say William Marsh Rice's entry in the "Handbook of Texas", which is published by the

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Texas State Historical Association, the entry on him written initially by Andrew Forest Muir, reformer and historian and biographer of Rice who taught here at Rice.

00:05:41.620 - 00:05:55.510

He says that way William Marsh Rice was a unionist directly that entry and then also there is a previous article that he published in 1962 before his death and we were,

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where he said something to the effect of, although Rice was a unionist. he did not make a nuisance of himself, I think is the exact phrase

00:06:05.170 - 00:06:19.400

in the antebellum Houston elite. So the idea was that if you read those two articles that he was actually supportive of the union, that he was a close friend of Governor Sam Houston

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who opposed the secession movement. And that, if he didn't speak up more, it was just because he didn't want to make a nuisance of himself, or.

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if I'm remembering my Texas history correctly, it's not very difficult, it's not a difficult question whether Sam Houston was a union this now I,

00:06:44.010 - 00:06:56.810

it's been a long time since Texas history, but I would even relying upon my middle school history education, I would say that that's not a difficult question.

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Right. But just relying on some of the documents that we have grappled with here over the course of the year. Hmm. It seems to me that

00:07:08.690 - 00:07:23.490

running to the conclusion that Rice was a unionist is a position that one probably shouldn't sprint towards. Well, that was the question that I posed to my students this morning

00:07:23.490 - 00:07:34.750

and I kind of wanna pose to the audience for our Doc Talk today. And I think we've already established that we don't have to stick to one document on these Doc Talks

00:07:34.750 - 00:07:45.830

so I thought it would be helpful to share a refresher to some of the people in our audience about a couple of the earlier documents that we've looked at as a context for the main document

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that I was discussing with my students this morning in class. Would that be okay with you? Absolutely, let's get started.

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Okay so the first document that I have is an issue of the Houston Weekly Telegraph, that was published on November 20th, 1860. And if you put that in the timeline of

00:08:10.210 - 00:08:22.920

events leading up to the outbreak of the Civil War, that's not very long after the election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency, which would have happened earlier in November.

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And that election sparked outrage across the American, south of the slaveholding states, the Cotton States in particular who viewed Lincoln as the the mortal enemy of slavery,

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and there were calls, almost immediately after Lincoln's election to buy some secessionists for southern states to leave the union,

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because within a union led by Abraham Lincoln, their rights would not be respected. This was the argument the secessionist were making already in November of 1860.

00:09:00.740 - 00:09:12.380

So it's right after the election of Abraham Lincoln, but it's before there is such a thing as the Confederate States of America, that wouldn't happen until early in 1861.

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And so this is kind of the opening moment of what historians of the Civil War era refer to "as the secession winter" when there were movements afoot

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in a variety of different states to pressure their governors and their state legislatures to take bolder steps to secede from the union to league with other southern states

00:09:36.160 - 00:09:48.620

in some new confederation. And that story historians have shown unfolded a little bit differently in each state. And you've already alluded to this, Dr. Byrd

00:09:48.620 - 00:10:00.970

that one of the reasons that the process was different in Texas was the fact that the governor of the state of Texas. in November, 1860 was General Sam Houston,

00:10:00.970 - 00:10:13.850

and many of his fellow governors and other deep south states were very pro-secession and made that clear from the earliest moments of this session winter,

00:10:13.850 - 00:10:26.090

and Houston on the other hand was more cautious, more opposed to secession. That's a general background, but what I really wanted to show you was

00:10:26.090 - 00:10:37.650

an article from this issue of the Telegraph that reports on a mass meeting of the people of Harris County. And so, it tells us that a large assemblage of people

00:10:37.650 - 00:10:51.220

came together at the market house in the city of Houston on November 14 at three o'clock in the afternoon for the purpose of taking into consideration the measures to be adopted by the people of Texas

00:10:51.220 - 00:11:00.200

in view of the election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency of the United States. So this is a kind of meeting that was happening in a lot of different counties in Texas,

00:11:00.200 - 00:11:14.880

and really counties across the American south. And one of the first things that this group did was to appoint a committee of 15 men, afterwards increased to 21,

00:11:14.880 - 00:11:26.580

who would prepare some resolutions to put before the larger meeting for voting to kind of get the sense of what was the sense of the people of Harris County

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on the election of Abraham Lincoln. And it gives us in this newspaper article a list of the people who were on that committee, there's many sort of leading lights

00:11:36.670 - 00:11:49.240

in the Houston political elite of the day, there's Ashbel Smith who would have known Sam Houston from the days of the Texas Revolution, one of the earliest white American settlers in the Republic.

00:11:50.410 - 00:11:58.970

Also, T.S. Lubbock who went on to be the Confederate governor of the state of Texas. There's B.A Bots,

00:11:58.970 - 00:12:15.130

might be familiar to the audience from Baker Bots, the very famous law firm that still exists in Texas today. And of course, I wanna call your attention to this article because William Marsh Rice also appears on this list

00:12:15.130 - 00:12:25.070

of men who were on the committee of resolutions. So was he E.H. Cushing who was the editor of this newspaper we're looking at right now. And he was known,

00:12:25.070 - 00:12:38.280

Cushing was to be a very vocal advocate of secession and had been for a number of years, even before Lincoln's election. So, Rice is on this list, this committee,

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and so is E.W. Taylor, the chairman of the committee, a former business partner of William Marsh Rice's, and it tells us if we scroll down a little bit about what the resolutions this committee reported said.

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And I wanna call your attention, especially to the first two resolutions. The first one, gives us a sense of the committee, about what the election of Abraham Lincoln means,

00:13:05.180 - 00:13:19.910

what does it portend for the southern states. And I'm just gonna read what it says verbatim. It says, "Resolved that the election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency by the Black Republican party

00:13:19.910 - 00:13:28.610

of the Northern States. Upon the principles of that party is the denial of the right of the Southern States to equality in the union,

00:13:28.610 - 00:13:40.990

reducing them to the condition of provinces and forces upon them the vital issue of emancipation of negro slavery with all its evil consequences,

00:13:40.990 - 00:13:53.530

or the withdrawal of the Southern States from the Confederacy." That's the first resolution. One of my students by the way asked a question that,

00:13:54.530 - 00:14:04.010

they were worried it was a dumb question, I don't think it's a dumb question at all, what's the Confederacy here that's being referred to? Because talks about,

00:14:04.010 - 00:14:15.990

there's this kind of dilemma that's being faced. Either the emancipation of slavery, the end of slavery, or withdrawal from the Confederacy. But this is a small c confederacy,

00:14:15.990 - 00:14:25.630

it's actually referring here to the United States. There is no Confederate States of America yet, so the confederacy that the committee's referring to here is the United States

00:14:25.630 - 00:14:37.010

and it's basically saying, now that Abraham Lincoln has been elected, the choice before us is clear, either we remain in the union and slavery comes to an end,

00:14:37.010 - 00:14:47.710

which kind of clear they can't accept or we withdraw, and we succeed. That's resolution one, now the second resolution is a little less overheated

00:14:50.110 - 00:15:00.350

and then that committee, so, it's just a process resolution, and it basically says, "resolved that the governor would be requested to convene the legislature

00:15:00.350 - 00:15:10.500

at the earliest practicable time." And at this very early moment after Abraham Lincoln was elected, that was one of the first demands

00:15:10.500 - 00:15:21.510

that was made of Governor Houston was that he should call a special session of the legislature to convene in Austin, and deliberate about what to do.

00:15:23.040 - 00:15:34.940

Should Texas do as some other southern states were preparing to do, and succeed or take some other step to show the protest of Texas to to Lincoln's election,

00:15:34.940 - 00:15:45.570

but the basic idea was just call the legislature together, that's what they wanted Sam Houston to do. And then there's some other resolutions that have to do with copying these resolutions

00:15:45.570 - 00:15:54.940

and publishing them in other newspapers and making sure people in other counties know what those Harris County meeting was saying. There's also some kind of

00:15:54.940 - 00:16:06.190

pretty radical steps being proposed too though like the fifth resolution, "We earnestly request the resignation of all federal officers in Texas

00:16:06.190 - 00:16:18.520

on or before the fourth of March next." And they also say that they want these resolutions to be presented as a memorial to Governor Houston.

00:16:19.950 - 00:16:31.390

And way in Marsh Rice his name appears on the list of signatures to that memorial to Governor Houston. Now at the bottom of this article,

00:16:32.610 - 00:16:40.420

this is kind of interesting and we talked about this in class this morning that at the request of several gentlemen, it says, the resolutions were taken up separately

00:16:40.420 - 00:16:49.530

and acted upon as follows. There must have been some people at the meeting who said, you know, I like some of these resolutions, but they are kind of different,

00:16:49.530 - 00:16:55.730

I mean some of them are just saying, let's publish these resolutions in other newspapers (chuckles) and some of them are saying,

00:16:55.730 - 00:17:07.190

federal officers should resign and one of them is saying that Lincoln's election forces the issue of emancipation or secession. And another one's just saying,

00:17:07.190 - 00:17:17.610

maybe we ought to call the legislature together and talk about this, So some cooler head in the room proposed that maybe each resolution should be voted on

00:17:17.610 - 00:17:27.120

in turn,. So that's what the meeting proceeded to do. First they took up the first resolution, you remember which one that was?

00:17:29.900 - 00:17:40.120

Sorry I'm muted. Yes I do. It's that, we're in a crisis, the election of Abraham Lincoln can only mean two things,

00:17:40.120 - 00:17:54.470

the destruction of the foundations of our civilization, which is the emancipation of slaves or succession. Right, that was resolution one. And it says here what the outcome of the vote was,

00:17:54.470 - 00:18:12.140

"it was passed with but one dissenting voice." One dissenting voice, doesn't name who that dissenter was. Okay then they took up the second resolution. The second resolution was placed before the house,

00:18:13.080 - 00:18:21.570

remember which one that was? (chuckles) Yeah, let's get the governor to call us together and talk this thing through.

00:18:21.570 - 00:18:32.520

Let's get the legislature together. Yeah, let's get the legislature together. And that resolution was placed before the house and it was passed with one dissenting voice.

00:18:34.240 - 00:18:42.520

Then it tells us the rest of the resolutions, including that one that said, all federal officer should resign, all of those resolutions were passed unanimously.

00:18:43.950 - 00:18:53.160

I feel like our listeners should be thick in the work of developing theories at this moment. (laughing) I'm gonna ask them a question in just a moment.

00:18:54.160 - 00:19:02.990

But I wanna point out one other thing, I'll tell you what the question is and you'll be thinking about it and you can tell me in the chat if you'd like.

00:19:04.490 - 00:19:15.870

Do you think that this source, if this was the only document we had, would this document be enough to challenge the conclusion that we were discussing earlier in the

00:19:15.870 - 00:19:26.500

Encyclopedia of Texas History that William Marsh Rice was a unionist? Or is there anything in this article that gives you pause or some doubt about that,

00:19:26.500 - 00:19:38.020

would you conclude just on the basis of this article that we ought to write the handbook of Texas and say, you might wanna think about changing that line about William Marsh Rice was a unionist.

00:19:38.020 - 00:19:46.250

That's the question I want you to think about. But let me point out one other resolution that was offered because it's gonna become important for the subsequent documents.

00:19:47.720 - 00:20:01.130

Another resolution was offered by General Rogers and passed. And this one held that, "Resolved that a convention of the people of Texas

00:20:01.130 - 00:20:14.730

is of the first importance to the well being of our state, as also to the proper vindication of our rights as Southern men." Now why was that resolution added, is that,

00:20:14.730 - 00:20:26.360

how is that different from resolution two which said the legislature ought to be convened. Well the difference is what Rogers is saying is, we shouldn't wait for the legislature

00:20:26.360 - 00:20:39.280

to be called into session, we should have a separate convention. A popular convention that's elected by the people of Texas, not just their elected representatives,

00:20:39.280 - 00:20:50.680

and that convention ought to take importance. Okay now hold on to that because kind of two positions start to emerge very quickly and this secession winter.

00:20:50.680 - 00:21:00.800

Some people say let's wait for Governor Houston to do his thing, let's earnestly request that he called the legislature together. But then there's this other idea that's already out there

00:21:00.800 - 00:21:09.300

and it's already passed here that maybe we should just have a convention, and not wait on the governor. So the question I had for you is

00:21:09.300 - 00:21:24.300

if this is the only document that that we had, would this be sufficient in your mind to overturn this conventional wisdom that William Marsh Rice was a unionist?

00:21:24.300 - 00:21:32.110

And I see an answer already in the Q&A, which is an excellent question, it's a question that my students brought up as well this morning,

00:21:32.110 - 00:21:50.440

who was the dissenting voice. Right, these resolutions were passed almost unanimously, but can we say with confidence that William Marsh Rice was part of that near unanimous vote

00:21:50.440 - 00:22:04.970

because there clearly was some dissent, not much dissent, one dissenting vote, but there was some dissent there, which I think raises a question. So let's see if we can go to some other sources.

00:22:06.470 - 00:22:15.340

What do you think by the way, Dr. Byrd? Would you say this is enough to, let me ask you while I find my other. Well, so when you first pose the question,

00:22:15.340 - 00:22:30.950

I took it literally, would I write the Handbook of Texas? And so, this isn't enough, in my mind I would not, I might compose the letter to the Handbook of Texas, because I wanted handy to fill out when I needed to,

00:22:30.950 - 00:22:43.830

but there's no way I would send that letter. But it is enough to raise a question. And I don't think it raises a small question, it raises a question that should

00:22:43.830 - 00:22:54.950

occupy you for a little time. Yes, I totally agree with that. And it also raises a question I wanna come back to, which is, what's at stake

00:22:54.950 - 00:23:05.170

in deciding whether way Marsh Rice was a unionist or not? I mean we've kind of seen different positions that were emerging there's like, let's call a legislature together,

00:23:05.170 - 00:23:12.620

there's have a convention, there's work with Governor Houston, work without Governor Houston, like there's different positions

00:23:12.620 - 00:23:26.260

and maybe a dissenting voice to those resolutions might mean that somebody likes one of those procedures better than the other. But one question I have is,

00:23:26.260 - 00:23:38.010

what do all of those people agree on, even if they disagree about parts of that procedure? I wanna come back to that question a little bit later. But I've got your answer,

00:23:38.010 - 00:23:43.150

I've got an answer from the audience that people are, maybe they're a little hesitant to send that letter quite yet

00:23:43.150 - 00:23:54.540

to the Handbook of Texas history. So, next let me show you an article that I've already shown you before on the Doc Talk. So this is one that we did look at on an earlier webinar.

00:23:55.420 - 00:24:08.260

And it's from another mass meeting of Harris County. Okay, it's from another mass meeting in Harris County. And I don't know if I can zoom in, am I zoomed in now? Did I zoom in at all?

00:24:08.260 - 00:24:21.340

Okay. So we looked at this one before, and it's reporting on another mass meeting of Harris County that was held, not on November 14, but on December 1st,

00:24:21.340 - 00:24:35.650

so a few weeks after that first one. And, basically, oh, is it still working? Let me try again, I'm gonna stop my share, something strange is happening here.

00:24:37.210 - 00:24:53.210

A couple of things have happened since that earlier meeting. And one of the things that has happened is that Sam Houston has spoken. Sam Houston has spoken.

00:24:53.210 - 00:25:03.690

He has issued some statements some public statements, indicating that he doesn't plan to call a legislature together. He's not gonna do that.

00:25:04.900 - 00:25:11.990

And and he wants to kind of calm down all of this excitement he's hearing from lots of different counties. And so now there's another meeting,

00:25:11.990 - 00:25:24.500

the Harris County committee gets together again to report on how these resolutions and memorials were received. And like they did before,

00:25:24.500 - 00:25:39.070

they appointed a committee of 21 again to draft a set of resolutions for this new meeting. And our list here looks very similar to the list that we saw before,

00:25:39.070 - 00:25:53.670

there's some new names on here but William Marsh Rice is still a part of this committee of resolutions here. And so they go away and they prepare their resolutions, they come back that evening at 7:30pm,

00:25:53.670 - 00:26:04.270

and report the sense of the committee, and they say some things that are very similar to those first two resolutions they say, "Danger is imminent.

00:26:05.180 - 00:26:22.090

Our social institutions are doomed to ultimate destruction under the domination of Black Republicanism. Resistance in some shape is a necessity. Whether in the Union, or out of it as a separate nation,

00:26:22.090 - 00:26:30.510

the march of events may determine." They're still kind of walking a fine line and well there's a possibility that maybe we can resist in such a way

00:26:30.510 - 00:26:45.670

that Abraham Lincoln's election is called into question or we get some constitutional amendment that assures us that he's not gonna do anything to influence. Like maybe there's some way that this could still work out

00:26:45.670 - 00:26:57.050

but in either case, they say it becomes the people of the state to consult together and take such action as may best secure their rights.

00:26:57.050 - 00:27:04.720

The only question is as to the most expedient mode of action. Now I'm not gonna go over this whole document because we've looked at it before,

00:27:04.720 - 00:27:15.980

but they go on to basically argue that now the most expedient course of action is the one that was proposed by General Rogers at that first meeting,

00:27:15.980 - 00:27:29.370

a convention of all of the people of Texas. Not wait for the legislature. And so the resolutions they passed at that meeting lay out a process for electing delegates from each county

00:27:29.370 - 00:27:40.980

to this convention of the people of Texas to consider what to do. The Secession Convention. Okay, William Marsh Rice on that committee.

00:27:42.120 - 00:27:51.640

It doesn't say, it doesn't tell us how the votes were recorded on those resolutions the way it did before, instead it says, "Upon motion, the report of the committee

00:27:51.640 - 00:28:09.720

was adopted as a whole unanimously." So the whole thing was adopted unanimously. And they did appoint some more subcommittees though, they said, clearly we're gonna have to have

00:28:09.720 - 00:28:18.990

some more meetings about this. (chuckles) And so they decided to appoint a permanent executive committee. Can you see that on the screen?

00:28:18.990 - 00:28:27.430

You can't see that on the screen? Okay, I'm not sure what's going on with my preview, let me try it again here. Whoop.

00:28:29.960 - 00:28:41.260

You're still not able to see it, are you? Okay now you can see it. They appoint an executive committee. And here there's a smaller list of people.

00:28:41.260 - 00:28:52.870

There's E.W. Taylor, Rice's former business partner, there's William J. Hutchins, he was about to become the mayor of Confederate Houston. There's William P. Rogers,

00:28:52.870 - 00:29:02.450

the guy who proposed the resolution at the first meeting to have a convention. Now on this list, you don't see William Marsh Rice, he's not part of the permanent executive committee,

00:29:02.450 - 00:29:13.220

his brother though, F.A. Rice was part of a committee appointed to raise funds to defray the expenses of this permanent executive committee.

00:29:13.220 - 00:29:27.360

So he's mentioned here. But the report of the whole committee approved unanimously. So let me ask the same question now, let me ask, do you think are we ready, you've written the letter,

00:29:27.360 - 00:29:40.570

are you ready to send it in to the Handbook of Texas? Let me see, the audience can put their answers in the chat or in the Q&A. Well, this is the point, Professor McDaniel

00:29:40.570 - 00:29:53.860

where I'm going to need to back away from my primary sources for just a second. (laughing) I'm gonna return to my shelf behind me. Okay. I'm gonna pull down some,

00:29:53.860 - 00:30:10.420

I'm gonna pull down Muir's biography of Rice, and I'm gonna have to remind myself, A, on what did he base his assertion, right, that rice was a unionist?

00:30:10.420 - 00:30:25.280

Hmm. And I'm probably gonna have to go online and do the same thing with that Handbook of Texas article, and I might need to see if he knew about these two pieces,

00:30:25.280 - 00:30:34.550

I imagine he did, he had to know about these two pieces, they don't seem. Hmm-mm. Hidden, they're very hard to find and I'm gonna have to remind myself how he treated them.

00:30:36.700 - 00:30:43.220

That's a really good idea. I like that idea. That's a historian idea there. It is a great idea. Yeah. And,

00:30:43.220 - 00:31:04.390

we can actually do that right now because I have this 1962 article that Muir published. And this is the one where he says, "A Unionist who did not however make a nuisance of himself

00:31:04.390 - 00:31:12.170

during the secession crisis and the unhappy days of the Confederate States of America." So that's where he makes the claim. And there's a footnote.

00:31:13.200 - 00:31:23.740

I can't see it. If you can. if you read, we'll be okay. Can you see the document at all? I see the the thumbnails, now I see the entire,

00:31:23.740 - 00:31:27.880

now it's disappeared. (sighs) I don't know what's going on, I'm having some weirdness. It's a

00:31:27.880 - 00:31:34.750

video memory thing there. I'm no computer scientist, but that's what I tend to blame all that stuff on, the RAM. All right.

00:31:34.750 - 00:31:48.780

Basically the footnote suggests, it does point to one of these articles that we've just looked at. So say that's not so.

00:31:50.330 - 00:31:56.790

Well, let me let me correct it, let me make sure I'm right about that. No he doesn't. It doesn't point to that.

00:31:56.790 - 00:32:04.890

I'm glad to hear it. Yes, (chuckles) no it doesn't say that. Actually it doesn't and that footnote,

00:32:04.890 - 00:32:12.710

it doesn't really give his source. Fascinating. Of that. Doesn't. Note to self. Note to self, there's, no source.

00:32:14.790 - 00:32:22.250

I do know. It usually doesn't turn out well. No, that's what a footnote is supposed to be for is you give your evidence for it.

00:32:23.190 - 00:32:37.210

I do know that there's, there's other places where Muir alleges that Rice was a good friend of Governor Houston. A good friend of Governor Houston

00:32:37.210 - 00:32:51.420

and that seemed to kind of be the basis on which surely Rice would have supported Sam Houston. How close was rice to F.A. Rice? (laughing)

00:32:51.420 - 00:32:58.170

Just sitting in the seminar. Yes. Shooting a breeze, asking some questions. Good question, it's a good question.

00:32:58.170 - 00:33:07.820

Or his business partner E.W. Taylor, let's say. I'm curious though what the audience thinks, do we have enough, so Dr. Muir wants to look a little bit more

00:33:07.820 - 00:33:17.820

at the secondary literature, which is I think why we wanna see is there any other evidence out there that might be powering this idea that he was a unionist.

00:33:19.970 - 00:33:26.950

I do see one question, what parts of Texas were represented on these committees? They seem to meet quite often and travel would have been difficult,

00:33:26.950 - 00:33:35.070

you're absolutely right. I mean, most counties had some mass meetings like this so if we looked in the newspapers, we could find Fort Bend County had a meeting

00:33:35.070 - 00:33:47.120

and Brazoria County had a meeting and Robertson County had a meeting and they're kind of all sending these memorials to Austin. And, but yes to go to Austin

00:33:47.120 - 00:33:59.180

and present the memorial in person to Governor Houston would have cost some money. That's one reason why Frederick A. Rice was appointed to this committee to raise some funds

00:33:59.180 - 00:34:09.520

to defray the expenses, and by the way, I can't show it to you right now but there's some evidence that William Marsh Rice donated to that fundraising committee.

00:34:10.370 - 00:34:21.220

But we're basically to the point and I'm sorry that I'm using up so much of the time on these documents but is it okay to kind of push forward to the last one

00:34:21.220 - 00:34:31.040

that we were talking about this morning in the class? So I asked my students in class to look at a final document, and this is what I have to give a shout out

00:34:31.040 - 00:34:43.410

to the Racial Geography Project because I had not been aware of this next document that we're gonna look at until very recently because of a student researcher

00:34:43.410 - 00:35:00.510

who was working on the Racial Geography Project to locate references to William Marsh Rice in the Houston newspapers from the Civil War era. And this one comes from December 18, 1860.

00:35:01.550 - 00:35:15.920

So now we're kind of two more weeks have passed since the last one that we looked at. And the reason that this popped up in some of the research of the Racial Geography Project

00:35:15.920 - 00:35:23.670

is because you can see, I hope you can see, are you seeing my browser? Okay. There's a message here

00:35:23.670 - 00:35:37.230

published to the people of Harris County. And at the bottom of this message to the people of Harris County, we see a small list of signatories,

00:35:39.280 - 00:35:52.980

and William Marsh Rice is on it. That's why it popped up in the search. Okay, so I definitely want to talk about what does that say, what does that message to the people of Harris County say.

00:35:52.980 - 00:36:04.360

But there when I was looking at this page, I started to notice there were some other evidence that might be helpful to us in answering this question. And I have to tell you a little bit more about

00:36:04.360 - 00:36:19.580

what's happened in the week before this issue was published because you can see here that it mentions that general Houston in his speech in this city on Wednesday night.

00:36:20.820 - 00:36:33.460

So general Houston, the governor of Houston, I mean the governor of Texas had apparently come to Houston, and given a speech. And if you scroll up here a little bit,

00:36:33.460 - 00:36:42.520

you can see that Cushing, the editor in chief of this newspaper was not very impressed with the speech, the speech was a failure he said.

00:36:42.520 - 00:36:56.290

And he was more impressed by the responses to the speech by P.W. Gray and John Wharton. And he also says that the majority of the crowd that was there to hear this speech,

00:36:56.290 - 00:37:06.500

did not like what the governor said, and frequently manifested their disapprobation at his tardiness in calling the legislator together. Right.

00:37:06.500 - 00:37:23.930

He's resisting calling legislature together. It also tells us a little bit about kind of the crowd that assembled to hear the speech. It says that there was a large number of people there,

00:37:25.310 - 00:37:35.760

the streets of Houston "were brilliantly illuminated with torches" and sort of banners or signs that were being carried in the streets.

00:37:35.760 - 00:37:46.960

The banners of the Southern Rights Association, and other groups and citizens, quote, "who favor the secession movement." Accompanied by bands of music,

00:37:46.960 - 00:37:56.430

"the procession moves to the principal streets, and then marched to the place where Houston was giving his speech. And according to the newspaper,

00:37:56.430 - 00:38:07.390

"this all had the good effect of convincing general Houston that the people of this city will never submit to Black Republican domination." says the newspaper.

00:38:07.390 - 00:38:17.220

So you kind of have to imagine this was not just like a quiet lecture there, the streets are full of torches and banners and it tells us what some of the banners say,

00:38:17.220 - 00:38:30.410

one of the banners has the motto, "Cotton is King." And another banner says, "We know our rights and knowing dare maintain them." "We accept the irrepressible conflict"

00:38:30.410 - 00:38:38.510

between the north and the south and the dozen others have the same character, "all breathing the firm resolve the people in the city, to stand to their rights."

00:38:39.440 - 00:38:48.730

Okay. Now, we already know that editor in chief of this newspaper was part of that movement. He was on the committee calling for the resolutions

00:38:48.730 - 00:39:00.080

and I told you you know for several years he had been advocating for secession, so we needed to kind of know what his perspective is. It wasn't the only perspective on the speech though

00:39:00.080 - 00:39:17.790

and when we come down to the bottom of this first column, we find out that there's another description of the meeting that has started to be printed up and be circulated in the streets of Houston.

00:39:17.790 - 00:39:32.370

A handbill that according to this newspaper is a ridiculous handle and the account of the meeting in this hand bill is that the crowd was enthusiastically supporting Governor Houston.

00:39:34.000 - 00:39:49.990

And they actually liked what he had to say, and that's why they all turned out, was because they wanted to welcome him and, what do you think you know Cushing would say about that,

00:39:49.990 - 00:39:57.230

this editor in chief? He says, fake news (chuckles) basically. He says, that's not what happened,

00:39:57.230 - 00:40:10.770

anyone who was there knows what happened. We heard the the gears that were hurled at Governor Houston, maybe there were some tears but a lot more gears and everyone agreed the Governor's speech

00:40:10.770 - 00:40:27.500

was a miserable failure. And the only enthusiastic responses were from some poor taste jokes that come in or Houston made that people kind of chuckled with alongside once in a while.

00:40:27.500 - 00:40:41.390

But, you know Cushing says, this hand bill is gonna be used by our enemies in the north, it's gonna make it sound like we are divided, and in reality we're not divided.

00:40:42.380 - 00:40:55.340

In reality, the people of Harris County believe, quote, "it is now or never. There is no end to the abolition encroachment: they have driven us to the wall."

00:40:56.730 - 00:41:07.900

And the people of Texas have proclaimed in a voice of thunder, no, it's now or never, we've got to act. Now the reason this article caught my attention is because,

00:41:08.860 - 00:41:25.170

at the top, it kind of gives us some ideas about where the dissent might be coming from in Houston. Cushing says, "when the first meetings of the public mind after the election of Mr. Lincoln were manifest,

00:41:25.170 - 00:41:37.170

there were many, especially among the commercial men, who deprecated the excitement." He basically says there were some merchants in Houston who were a little worried about

00:41:37.170 - 00:41:49.760

jumping on the bandwagon of secession. And it's because they foresaw the economic effects that that would have on Houston. And so consulting their own interest, they thought,

00:41:49.760 - 00:42:00.730

can we do something that would prevent war and catastrophe? And the editor says, you know we shouldn't be surprised at this. Because men who have to look forward

00:42:00.730 - 00:42:09.720

to the loss of 1000s of dollars every week that there's commotion, it's not surprising that they seek anxiously for some other solution of the question

00:42:09.720 - 00:42:21.660

then one does involving them. And he goes on and says that that was the case for some of the prominent merchants of Houston. Can you guess why this was catching my attention

00:42:21.660 - 00:42:30.830

(Laughing) Dr. Byrd? Tell me. I could see why. Because Rice was a prominent merchant, right? Yeah. Rice

00:42:30.830 - 00:42:40.880

was a prominent merchant. Yes. And here is Cushing saying, the merchants weren't all on board. Really, really, if you scroll down,

00:42:40.880 - 00:42:49.740

are you please gonna find the parenthetical that lists some of these gentlemen. (laughing) That would be too much to ask.

00:42:51.300 - 00:43:00.730

Well, let me see what I can do for you, okay, let me let me scroll down here a little bit. He goes on to say that, yes, there were some prominent merchants

00:43:00.730 - 00:43:12.830

who were not supportive of this at first, but he says, "we are proud to say that they have for the most cheerfully yielded to the necessities of the time.

00:43:13.860 - 00:43:23.140

Some of them have been most at stake were with us from the first, nearly all are with us now. We have in mind two in particular."

00:43:24.420 - 00:43:32.990

who have now assured us that it's now or never. The time is now to settle this everlasting slavery agitation. And the only way to do it

00:43:32.990 - 00:43:41.730

is for the states to throw themselves upon their reserve rights, it can't be settled in any other way we have to succeed. No parenthetical remark yet,

00:43:41.730 - 00:43:55.030

doesn't tell us who those two merchants were. But then he kind of seems to still kind of have in mind this hand bill that's circulating and there's some people who are going to the governor

00:43:55.030 - 00:44:10.980

and saying that this secession movement, it really doesn't represent the bulk of the people. It's just some extremist, it's just some agitators, it's newspaper editors who are stirring up all of this.

00:44:10.980 - 00:44:27.960

But Governor Houston, the real conservative men in the city are with you. And Cushing says, that's not true. And here's how he proves it he says, quote,

00:44:27.960 - 00:44:45.610

"We have heard that some one or two persons in Houston have declared that this movement is that of reckless agitators who have nothing at stake. In other words, that William M. Rice, W.J. Hutchins,

00:44:46.450 - 00:45:00.830

W.S. Rogers, E.W. Taylor, Ashbel Smith, Cornelius Ennis and 20 others of like standing are reckless agitators having nothing at stake. Could reckless impedance go further?"

00:45:05.440 - 00:45:14.920

What's going on there? I asked my students, why is William Marsh Rice coming up there? What can we conclude about him from that,

00:45:14.920 - 00:45:23.320

if any? Well, I don't know that we can conclude anything about him (laughing) about it. But we may, I wouldn't mind

00:45:23.320 - 00:45:37.500

drawing some conclusions about Cushing. Yes. And again right, if Cushing is sober and careful and I have no indication that he is from any of this.

00:45:37.500 - 00:45:52.180

(laughing) Right. But if he was, that would be one thing. But you know we all live in fear of our names in someone else's mouth, right?

00:45:52.180 - 00:46:07.100

And the ways that they use it and so this is one of those, right, it's on the one hand or on the other hand. On the one hand, it gives some indication

00:46:07.920 - 00:46:23.940

that again we need to look further into this question of was Rice a unionist right, but whether I would trust Cushing on this list, I don't know that I can.

00:46:24.810 - 00:46:35.350

Hmm, okay, 'cause we don't have, it's not William Marsh Rice saying this, but maybe we can conclude, one thing we can conclude is Cushing thinks that

00:46:35.350 - 00:46:46.840

William Marsh Rice is a very respected man of standing, in other words, he's the last person. I'm there for that, yes, I think we can definitely conclude that.

00:46:46.840 - 00:46:58.150

He's the last person that you would think of as a reckless agitator. And that's precisely why Cushing thinks it helps his case to cite, when he says

00:46:58.150 - 00:47:09.140

is the support of William Marsh Rice for this movement, because he's not a reckless agitator. Right. But still, what's not clear to me yet,

00:47:09.140 - 00:47:24.750

though I wouldn't be surprised, right, it's still heading in that direction or I don't know that, maybe it's not heading but. Yeah. Right it's, I still can't be clear from this

00:47:26.270 - 00:47:37.360

what Rice believes, I actually think the other evidence might be clear. Hmm. Then this piece of this evidence is useful as it is.

00:47:39.040 - 00:47:50.850

Okay, well let's see what happens if we scroll back over to what originally caught that our attention to this page, which was the message to the people of Harris County.

00:47:53.270 - 00:48:10.800

And let me tell you, let me just ask you would this allay your concerns a little bit if we look at the bottom of this, and William Marsh Rice's name is actually signed to this message.

00:48:11.020 - 00:48:19.640

In other words, it's not him, it's not Cushing describing him, but it's him listing his name along with these other figures,

00:48:19.640 - 00:48:31.210

P.W. Gray, Thomas S. Lubbock, William J. Hutchins, E.W. Taylor to this letter. Is that better evidence of Rice's own view I guess is what, Yeah, I think so,

00:48:31.210 - 00:48:36.790

yeah, I think so. So then the question becomes, or if we come back up and see, well, what are they saying then?

00:48:37.770 - 00:48:49.480

And basically what they say is, we're not happy with Governor Houston. (chuckles) We heard his speech last Wednesday,

00:48:50.560 - 00:49:04.100

and what we can gather by the way from other sources about what Governor Houston said, I have here the collected writings of Sam Houston, and I pulled down, and it includes a speech

00:49:04.100 - 00:49:13.510

that he had given not long before this where he basically said, here's my plan, I'm not gonna call the legislature together, I'm gonna contact my fellow governors

00:49:13.510 - 00:49:21.880

in other southern states, I'm gonna feel them out. If they think it would be a good idea for all of the southern states to kind of meet

00:49:21.880 - 00:49:30.660

in a convention together and sort through our course of action, if they say that it's a good idea, then we can hold an election here in Texas

00:49:30.660 - 00:49:44.060

for some delegates to go to that southern convention. And he even pulls out a resolution that the legislature had passed in 1858 in Texas, authorizing the governor to do that

00:49:44.060 - 00:49:52.650

because there was an earlier moment of secession crisis where everyone is freaking out and secessionists are saying, you know, abolitionism has crossed a line, we got to do something.

00:49:52.650 - 00:50:01.130

And at that point the legislature had said, the governor is authorized to hold an election for delegates to a southern convention. So Houston just said, I'm just gonna do that

00:50:01.130 - 00:50:14.780

because I've already got that resolution. I don't need to call the legislature together, certainly don't yet need to have a statewide convention. And this message here that William Marsh Rice is signing

00:50:16.240 - 00:50:30.390

is not happy with that plan. Basically tells him, people of Harris County, "it's becoming clear that the governor is not going to cooperate

00:50:30.390 - 00:50:42.630

with the people in the manner desired by them. The course taken by him is not what you were led to expect, convention first with the governors of other states and then in the contingency that they concur with him,

00:50:42.630 - 00:50:53.320

proposing to order an election" doesn't meet the exigency. It admits the existence of a critical emergency, but it doesn't act on the will of the majority,

00:50:53.320 - 00:51:01.760

it's just gonna create delay, it's just gonna create confusion. And it doesn't meet the crisis and they remind us what is the crisis.

00:51:03.000 - 00:51:12.890

Black Republicanism. Black republicanism and abolition. Emancipation of slaves. Now abolitionism is in the ascendant

00:51:13.950 - 00:51:25.820

and the exercise of its power eminent. And so all we can do is, is hold a convention, we've got to hold the state convention now. There's no other alternative.

00:51:28.370 - 00:51:45.830

Okay, so let me pose the question now to the group and to you Dr. Byrd, do you think this would allow you to go to the Handbook of of Texas History

00:51:45.830 - 00:51:57.430

and challenge the idea that he was a unionist? So once again I'm gonna, I think you need to be asking a younger person, because. I'll tell you,

00:51:57.430 - 00:52:09.190

I can tell you what the vote, I'll tell you what the vote in my class after we looked at this page, was very similar to the vote of

00:52:09.190 - 00:52:17.640

the first mass meeting in Harris County. There was but one dissenting voice. (laughing) Now let me ask, I'm not gonna tell you what,

00:52:17.640 - 00:52:32.920

but I'm just curious, what do you think? Yeah, I'm not writing the Handbook of Texas yet. Right. But I'm gonna work, right, the conclusion of Muir

00:52:35.830 - 00:52:50.680

seems to be under more than a shadow of doubt, right, there's great doubt. And the reason I said, I'm not writing the journal, the Handbook of Texas yet is because,

00:52:52.130 - 00:53:13.530

I kind of came of age before you could write the Handbook of Texas so easily, or access it so easily. But this is, right, this is clearly, very clearly a path that you have to continue down.

00:53:15.540 - 00:53:24.630

Hmm-mm, hmm-mm, hmm-mm. Well, I also see a question from the audience and I think it's a great one, what is the definition of a unionist.

00:53:26.160 - 00:53:37.670

Because labels can be narrow and limiting. Maybe when we read some of these sources and we see how much is going on in the moment, just in this one month period,

00:53:40.780 - 00:53:49.220

actually none of them are talking about unionist versus secessionists, they're talking about are you with Governor Houston on his plan,

00:53:49.220 - 00:54:06.310

or are you with us on the convention plan? Or you wait for the legislature to do something, it's not being framed in the way that Muir is framing it as unionist or not unionist and maybe people have

00:54:06.310 - 00:54:17.720

multiple and overlapping identities and motives. You know maybe it seemed clear from Cushing's article that reference William Marsh Rice that whether you are a commercial man

00:54:18.730 - 00:54:32.090

seem to be a salient issue at this moment, whether you were properly conservative. And what does conservative mean? Is conservative to stand by the union,

00:54:33.400 - 00:54:46.770

and leaving the union is reckless and not conservative, that's agitated, so I think that's a great question, we have to we run the risk of imposing our later labels from what we know developed, once the Civil War began,

00:54:46.770 - 00:54:56.820

the civil war hasn't even started when all this is happening, so the idea of a unionist versus not unionist hasn't really developed yet.

00:54:57.990 - 00:55:09.600

But do you think, let me ask a final question to the audience, does it matter? And I asked my students about this too. What's at stake in deciding if William Marsh Rice

00:55:09.600 - 00:55:24.380

was a unionist or not? What's at stake in deciding from these articles what his signature on those resolutions means? Is there anything else we can conclude from it short of,

00:55:24.810 - 00:55:36.250

he was a unionist or not a unionist? That may ultimately be more significant to us. Who is us? I just wanna be super clear on that.

00:55:36.250 - 00:55:43.900

(laughing) Historians or. Okay. Or perhaps the taskforce. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean,

00:55:43.900 - 00:56:01.490

it's a question that is more than in the air and was probably more than in the air was Muir, right, there's a reason why a few three or so more decades ago, what a union this meant,

00:56:01.490 - 00:56:16.030

what that meant and the interpretation of someone's legacy. Hmm. And that question is very much in the more than just in the air now about what is the the legacy

00:56:16.030 - 00:56:26.110

of the founder of this university. So. Was he on the right side of history, that's kind of like what people wanna know.

00:56:26.110 - 00:56:44.210

Yeah. Or was he a reluctant participant in the Civil War? You know, I think you're right whatever it is. It's also a question that we, that once we answer it,

00:56:44.210 - 00:57:04.290

we probably also, right, so if we bring Sam Houston back into it. Right, if he better carries the label unions, right, does that absolve him if the larger question is

00:57:04.290 - 00:57:22.820

being on the right side of history. If we put General Sam Houston next to Louis Tappan, right, what do we get, if the real question isn't unionists or secessionist but white supremacists?

00:57:22.830 - 00:57:34.650

Right, where, right, the question leads to other questions. That's a great point, that may, for Muir it was most important to decide was he a Unionist or not.

00:57:35.580 - 00:57:48.120

But if all of the players in this debate in Harris County agree that there's a crisis because Abraham Lincoln has been elected, and abolitionism is ascendant

00:57:49.210 - 00:57:59.050

and whatever else you think about what we ought to do, what needs to come first is defending our social institutions, Slavery. Slavery

00:57:59.050 - 00:58:13.730

and ensuring that we don't get to the emancipation of slaves. Then in some way, does it matter whether Rice agreed with general Houston's plan,

00:58:13.730 - 00:58:26.450

or with Cushing's plan if they all kind of agreed on what was at stake at this moment, and that slavery was was hanging in the balance? And I do have, I don't have time to share today

00:58:26.450 - 00:58:41.410

but I can encourage the audience to look up another speech that Governor Houston gave in Houston in March of 1863 shortly before his death, and in the middle of the Civil War.

00:58:41.410 - 00:58:53.000

And I think it speaks to the question you just asked Dr. Byrd is, did general Houston in opposing secession, was he therefore pro abolitionists,

00:58:53.000 - 00:59:04.650

or was it possible to be in favor of union maybe even those commercial men who didn't want to act too hastily, could you be conservative on the question of secession

00:59:05.950 - 00:59:22.090

but also still very much in agreement with Cushing and the other secessionists about the threat that Black Republicanism, quote unquote, would pose to slavery and civilization and in the south?

00:59:24.680 - 00:59:36.740

And the real question now is, the pressing question now that I hope should be on everyone's mind given this cliffhanger is, will there be Doc Talks in the summer?

00:59:36.740 - 00:59:44.390

(chuckles) Right, when will we resolve this? Ooh, I don't know. Are we on break until August?

00:59:45.690 - 00:59:57.610

You know, I meant to ask you about that before we came on the air live, because now we're kind of out and out in front here. I think we have on our schedule

00:59:57.610 - 01:00:10.740

we had planned to do at least one more next week. And I. Again we wanna go back to we, I don't think it's on my schedule. (laughing)

01:00:12.710 - 01:00:19.020

Well, stay tuned I guess. Stay tuned. Watch the taskforce website. On the website,

01:00:19.020 - 01:00:35.120

but either way, we really appreciate your attendance today, and all of the webinars that you've come to in the past, We didn't get to all of the questions here, but there are some great questions in the chat

01:00:35.120 - 01:00:43.040

and in the Q&A, and thinking about this document which we appreciate, we've learned a lot from you over the course of the semester.

01:00:43.040 - 01:00:53.420

We hope you'll continue to listen to the podcast and follow along with the work of the task force in the months to come. Have a great afternoon Dr. Byrd.

01:00:53.420 - 01:00:54.420

Take care of Prof.