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Hello, my name is Shay, and I'm here with, Abi Savizon. [Audio Description: A man sits on a brown chair against a dark gray wall covered with framed photographs and certificates. He has short gray hair and a neatly trimmed gray beard. He wears a black T-shirt with “COCO” printed in large white letters across the chest, with the words “Coalition of Community Organizations” and the website “www.cocohouston.org” printed below in smaller text. He is also dressed in loose-fitting black pants and rests his hands folded together in his lap.] And we're both Rice University students and members of the Fondren Fellows program, which is an initiative directed by Rice's Fondren Library, which aims to foster research projects centered around a theme of archiving material.

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Our project is focused on the creosote contamination of Houston's Fifth Ward and Kashmere Gardens. Today is February 28th, 2025, and I'm here with Reverend James Caldwell. Founder and director of COCO, which stands for the Coalition of Community Organizations.

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Thank you so much. To begin, Reverend Caldwell, could you please tell me a little bit about yourself and your connection to Kashmere Gardens

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and Fifth Ward? I actually grew up in Fifth Ward. I graduated from the middle school, elementary school, and the high school. "Go Wildcats", Phillis Wheatley High School and

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I'm a long term resident of Fifth Ward Life was different then,

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Fifth Ward was a community. We all knew each other. I knew people across the street, Three, two street, three streets over. And of course, their children.

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We all went to school together. So it was a community. It was. It was united, involved and engaged

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I'm one of seven siblings, the 7th oldest And everybody knew us Everybody in the community knew our entire family And our family knew them.

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Thank you so much. Could you please tell me or describe what life was like growing up or being a part of Fifth Ward? What are some of your favorite memories?

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Whether through music, people, or community events, that made it truly special? Fifth Ward was and still is A historically black community. We have the Barbara Jordans.

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The Mickey Lelands. One of the things that I tell a story about is that I went to school with George Foreman, before he dropped out.

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And anyway, George used to take my lunch, but I didn't have any problem with it because he took everybody else's lunch. It wasn't an issue, but.

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There are so many memories from growing up in Fifth Ward I grew up actually not knowing that we were "poor" I thought everyone lived the way we lived during the time when I grew up,

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I'm a product of the 60s. So, I remember it vividly. But It's a childhood that I wouldn't trade for anything else.

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I truly, fully enjoyed it. And there are so many memories I discovered this later on.

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I always wanted to get into it, but there was this little club called The Club Matinee that they had in Fifth Ward. Then later on, I discovered it was called the Cotton

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Club of the South. And that was because I grew up during a portion of segregation. Back then, black

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Entertainers and performers couldn't perform At the main venues in certain towns And so they had the Club Matinee

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That was referred to as the Cotton Club. All of them came to The Club Matinee. Thank you so much.

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Are there any specific locations In Fifth Ward that are particularly meaningful to you, and why so? So many.

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A lot of it's changed. The community that I grew up in no longer exists It's been taken over by industry and freeways. And that's one of the issues that we struggle with now.

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The interstates: Interstate I-10 Interstate 59/I-69 and 610; Divided and separated our communities and what have you, there was a lot of displacement.

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Growing up, there were a lot of black and brown businesses in the community that no longer exist. I got my first job working at a furniture store When I was 9/10 years old.

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My mom traded there, and she knew Mr. Morris She wanted me to work, so she put me to work And that was my first job.

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That is a very valuable memory because Mr. Morris taught me about business Not that I retained it as I grew older, but, he basically taught me a lot.

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He taught me how to record-keep and bookkeep. Now, a lot of it I didn't retain but I'm grateful to him and thankful to him for that, and the community that I grew up in. They say it takes a village to raise a child, and

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I grew up in that village. I couldn't do nothing wrong Otherwise When I got home, everybody knew about it. I still did, though.

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Thank you so much. I'm so glad you had that community. Could you please tell me about When and how you heard about the creosote contamination

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and how it affected you and the entire community? I can remember as a young man, child All of the above Growing up and

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Smelling the creosote when the plant was actually there. Didn't know what it was at the time, But we lived about 121 00:05:49,882 --> 00:05:51,084 Maybe three to

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Four miles away from The creosote plant itself but yeah, I remember vividly because we were near downtown, when I Grew up in Fifth Ward.

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I didn't and was unaware of a Lot of the environmental concerns that Fifth Ward has to address That are kind of coming to the forefront now I had no knowledge of what was taking place, no knowledge of

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Why people were having respiratory problems, cancer issues, all cardiovascular problems. never knew. It wasn't until

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My adulthood that I had the opportunity to give a revelation because I saw that there was no

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unified effort in the mobilization to address concerns. We had a lot of organizations that Came in with shiny objects and all of the above, but they would come and it would be a temporary fix.

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Then they would leave, and with them the hopes and dreams, desires and expectations of of the community itself. Getting

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into, I guess you could say the environmental aspects of how it impacts the community, It was jaw dropping, my jaws dropped.

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The one person who had a major impact, and you can probably see his picture up there Is Dr. Robert Bullard At Texas Southern University When COCO began

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And that was in 2008. We went to, matter of fact, His assistant

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professor Dr. Denae King Who is on my board. That's another story

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But I went to hear him speak at an event and it was there that

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I left with that "Aha" moment You know, jaw dropping We got to share some things regarding the community that I grew up in

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and got to exchange some information It was awe inspiring and I began to somewhat Grasp an understanding of why things were

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Occurring in our neighborhood and why there was no real healthcare why there was no economic growth, All of the other factors, housing,

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They're all connected as a result of the environment The environment was connected To all the air we breathe,

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the water we drink, the ground that our children, and me as a child, Never knowing that it posed a risk To me or anyone else.

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Thank you so much. So you talked about how you started COCO in 2008 because you realized there was unified mobilization Around the contamination, and how Dr. Denae King served on your board.

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Can you tell me a little bit more about the foundation of COCO, Fifth Ward, And the important work that COCO has done regarding the issue? Okay. It's a long story

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But I'll try to condense it I kind of became a community advocate I just wanted to be engaged with The community

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I discovered, and this was during President Obama's first election that there was a young man who came down from Utah

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And was part of a super PAC He wanted to organize the communities In Fifth Ward Black and brown communities

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in Fifth Ward To get them out to vote Being a minister Being a preacher

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I knew some folks, and we tried to connect them to Various communities in and around Houston The one thing that we discovered, thank God we were able to achieve that victory, which could have sustained it

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But nevertheless We realized, one thing I realized was that there was a lack of communication and education

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Among communities and neighborhoods not realizing that they really do have the power to change, and bring about change in their own community. And basically, that's how.

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COCO, the concept, or the revelations, came about, I discovered that that were certain entities and certain communities In our own region that would have

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Or gather information that would be pertinent or informative, and helpful to the community wasn't being shared They thought I got it. I'm going to keep it. When it's empty,

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I'll let you have it. But upon seeing that, the concept came that Okay, if you don't want to share your information with everybody, share it with us, we

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Will share it with any and everybody We didn't care - because we're a nonprofit, we Didn't care about race, color, religion, None of that mattered

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What we wanted to do, as a preacher, The scripture tells me that my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge And that has been a big issue in black and brown communities Because we don't know,

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we suffer the consequences. We wanted to be able to educate our communities, provide them the information that they need, that could benefit them

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That could perhaps Well, we don't say perhaps that would improve their quality of life because

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if you don't know, it can be awful. But upon doing so, that concept came about, and the name was given to us by a young lady who still lives in Kashmere Gardens

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She was the secretary of Kashmere Super Neighborhood, Mildred Johnson. She named COCO for us And I liked the name because that's what we were trying to do. We wanted to organize or structure a group of community organizations churches, businesses, schools

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Teachers. We didn't care. All of the above. But mostly our residents, that's who we wanted to inform and educate

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So that they would have the knowledge that would benefit them. It started out as a small concept in Fifth Ward and it has grown over the years

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But through that process, I met Dr. King through an event and of course, it was the same one that I met Dr. Bullard at. We've had that relationship since, and she was one of my original board members.

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Sometimes we have a tendency to think that we may have the vision and know where we're going and how we would like to get there, but we don't have the insight, we don't have the knowledge we don't have the ability,

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we have to rely on others. Dr. King was very, very instrumental in helping COCO achieve to to where it is now. And this is just a small piece from COCO's perspective

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of where we would like to go and what we would like to do. Taking on the environmental challenges and realizing how the environment impacts communities of color

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We can go into the redlining and all of this stuff here but that's another topic that needs to be discussed, because I think a lot of that history is lost to this generation. Now, you know,

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They don't fully understand why things exist the way they are. It has been a legacy of that. But in 2008, It was formed and we gathered

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up as many as we could Right now, COCO's database may be about 6,000 Somewhere around there, maybe a little more. I don't know, I don't count anymore But it has grown,

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And we would like to see it grow Our primary concern is to Inform and educate our communities

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and connect them to resources. The creosote issue came about Oh, Ms. Kathy Blueford Daniels

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had begun this process years ago. The community noted that there was a probable issue in Fifth Ward. especially in their community

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with the creosote But they didn't necessarily know what it was. Kathy Blueford Daniels began that process years ago But it's a task.

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It's a daunting task to do that gather information, the data, to try to spread the information, the law with the community after several years of nothing actually transpiring - it may have been 5, 6, 7, or 8 years But her brother, at

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one of our events we started, I was contacted by a young lady who wanted to do something about it Okay.

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Ms. Blueford's brother came and Asked me if there was anybody or anything that we could do to try to bring to attention to what was taking place in that

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particular community in Fifth Ward we referred to it as Frenchtown, but that's probably old school

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But I told him yes, and we were able to get Lone Star Legal Aid, EDF [Environmental Defense Fund] The Bullard Center and several other agencies engaged and involved in that process.

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And IMPACT was born, that's the group that was formed in Fifth Ward of residents trying to educate the community Lone Star Legal Aid was at the forefront in that.

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Because let's just face it, I'm not a scientist, I’m not an attorney, I'm not a part of academia; I’m just an old black preacher. That's it. But we wanted to.

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the community's concern was about what was taking place Was endangering the parents, the brothers, the children, all of the above. So there are various types of sicknesses and diseases They had an indication of what was taking place,

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but they didn't know for sure Lone Star came in, and then I worked with A&M They came out for testing. Ground testing, water testing, air sampling, and all of the above.

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As time progressed and we understood the idea that this would be a process, this was not going to take place in six months or even six years. And I

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think we've been dealing with this now probably over 10 years But we were able to get to this point due to our congresswoman Our late congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee

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Who met with the city to have a cancer cluster study done. And it was discovered that, yes There's a cancer cluster in Fifth Ward. And as a result of that, of course, you know everybody jumps on the wagon

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when you're on the front page, everybody wants to be on that picture and a part of it. We're appreciate that. We're grateful for that Because it gives the community an opportunity to Voice their views, their opinions, and their thoughts, and tell their stories.

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Because it's their stories and their issues, and it's what they would like to see that is going to change. Hopefully the outcome of what takes place. Compensation. Yeah.

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I think they should be compensated, you know, for years of pain and suffering and misery they've had to endure After getting the cancer cluster study done there was a community meeting surrounding the

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Creosote site at my former high school, Wheatley High School, where we were able to get All of the, quote, "decision makers", you know, to come in

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And, that motion began to take place eventually, We were able to get the former EPA director, Michael Reagan, to come down And we actually took him on a tour of Fifth Ward and other communities He actually held a

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Meeting with residents in Fifth Ward So

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Understanding that this was a process We used the creosote contamination

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as a springboard to try to educate our community on other issues that are impacting them and that are connected to housing and academics. Folks were connecting it to academics

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you Have a learning disability because of the water that you drink Your child has it because The water has lead

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Then that creates a problem We want to try to make sure that the community is aware of all of this. The air quality, Houston as a city has never been I think the air

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quality standard was set in 1970 but Houston has never met that standard

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since this concept came out and now we have been able to understand that and realize that. Through COCO, we've been able to

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Set up five clarity monitors to monitor the air in Fifth Ward to monitor the air in and around. We plan on getting more in the other communities that border Fifth Ward

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and also in other, communities as well. But we want to be able to know what they were breathing. We monitor those.

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and we, with A&M, did some ground testing. We discovered some things in the soil before the city did

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in our working relationship with Texas A&M. A&M continues to work, not necessarily with us, We have that relationship, but with other communities along that court. But it's

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a journey. as I mentioned earlier, I'm a product of the '60's and fully understand what leaders at the time I won't say any names, when they said

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"The struggle continues." Yeah it does. And for black and brown communities It does, it does. And now we want to do is to be able to look at our organization, COCO

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it's a lighthouse. Yeah. And we want to be able to shine that Light in our communities Where darkness goes, and when we speak of darkness,

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We're talking about issues that are impacting, deterring, and preventing our community from Thriving, growing and prospering We'll continue to do that.

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You know that's Our motto basically. If you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so we want to get our community, regardless of who they are, where they are, we don't see race.

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Because one thing about the influence of creosote, It doesn't care what your religious beliefs are, what your gender is, what language you speak, or any of the above. it does not care, it'll impact you as well. But we want to make sure that our communities are aware of how it impacts them.

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It's great to know that there are Superfund Sites in Fifth Ward, toxic sites, our air quality is bad, there’s lead in our water, and now we have this creosote issue over here that is impacting.

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But once you know that, what does this mean? What do you want to do about it? How do you resolve the issue while

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allowing the community to still tell their stories about the impact, what it has done, and what it has created for their communities economically, and so forth? So our efforts are

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just to shine light in those in dark places to bring about some awareness and some knowledge of issues that are impacting the community that they have no knowledge of at all.

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Thank you so much, the work that COCO is doing is so impactful I also wanted to ask, on this topic of impact, can you please tell me what has been the biggest impact of the creosote

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contamination on you, but also the broader community of Fifth Ward and Kashmere Gardens? The objective that we wanted to accomplish because we

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knew it wasn't our decision. We knew it shouldn't be the congresswoman, it shouldn't be the governor, it shouldn't be TCEQ, it shouldn't be the feds or the EPA it should be the community.

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They're the ones that have been impacted. And their voices are the ones that matter the most. What they would like to see done. One or several of the issues that

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IMPACT put on the table. First of all, they want it to be cleaned up. And put something that would sustain the community

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A health facility that would monitor or allow the community residents to go for early detection of sicknesses or diseases, this sort of thing.

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And to beautify, bring a park, bring something into the community. I can remember, you heard me mention earlier that it was called Frenchtown.

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I can remember when that was a vibrant and alive community. Having grown up in Fifth Ward, we knew every section of it.

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We would walk it, or ride our bikes, that sort of thing, but that has changed. You know. But the community itself, its history,

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its culture its identity Everything changes, and we know that. But in the process, our community

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As a historically black and brown community should not lose its identity, its history or its culture in the process. The change is inevitable. But knowing who

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you are, where you come from, and what you've been able to overcome and achieve. I think it's that ability to allow

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the community to have pride within itself, and to grow from that understanding that many others created this path and this platform for you.

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Acknowledging that and being able to share that with the next generation, and continue.

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Our mission statement is to inform and educate this generation of communities and the next. We want to make sure that we have a set of foundations

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that we can build on that will strengthen, not just this community, but any community, because without that knowledge,

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people will perish. Thank you so much. On the topic of knowledge, what do you wish other people knew about the creosote contamination?

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I don't know everything there is to know about the creosote contamination The one thing that I wish

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they understood is that it's detrimental, but the full impact and

00:26:47.270 - 00:26:54.080

how it can affect generation to generation. It already has, but

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the ongoing impact and how important it is to address it from a community perspective. so that

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the next generation does not have to endure what you are enduring or what previous generations have endured. Because mom, grandma and grandpa endured this,

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they lived it. One of the primary reasons why there was so much pushback, was because we're addressing a multi-billion-dollar, nationwide

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entity. We're talking about Union Pacific. And so we understood that this

00:27:35.290 - 00:27:43.860

fight was not going to be easy, it was going to be long term, and you had to be prepared.

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I'll use the word enemy, because it has been an enemy to the community, and we want to get them to the table, and other agencies, and have them

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share their stories. But understand fully, we brought EDF, and Lone Star, A&M, we wanted our communities to be educated and understand that

00:28:07.450 - 00:28:23.600

yes, this is here, it's been here for generations this sort of thing, but how is it impacting me? How is it going to impact you? It's great to know that there's a problem, and understand, and have that knowledge, but how does it impact me?

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And if it doesn't impact me personally how does it impact my wife, my husband, my children my grandchildren, grandma,

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grandpa? It's going to impact the neighbor across the street that I love and have knows for 20, 30 years, what have you? How's it going to impact them and their offspring

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and children? And having our community understand that aspect of why this is here, and not just from a creosote perspective, but from an environmental perspective.

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Because there is an old cliche What you don't know can kill you. And that's what has happened.

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And we want our communities to know to have knowledge, and then be prepared to fight that good

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fight of faith. Don't just talk about it. Don't just use the platform for personal,

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or to edify, to lift yourself up, use it to lift up the community. I learned a long time ago that leaders son't stand in front of everybody and say follow me. They get behind

00:29:29.700 - 00:29:39.910

everybody and push them forward. That's our objective. I try to educate and inform our communities so that they have the knowledge.

00:29:39.910 - 00:29:54.390

and we'll connect them to resources that will enable them to be successful in their efforts. It may be long-term but at least you understand that you have the ability to achieve your goal

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and the next generation Can prosper and do the same thing. Thank you so much. So a bit earlier, you were talking about the late representative

00:30:06.740 - 00:30:18.650

Sheila Jackson Lee, and her role in kind of amplifying the fact that Fifth Ward and Kashmere Gardens is a cancer cluster. Can you please tell me about

00:30:18.650 - 00:30:30.960

the pathway that kind of happened from there, and your perception of the EPA's response to the situation? Oh boy. We got a couple of days?

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I knew Congresswoman Lee when she started out as a city councilwoman and then became the

00:30:42.610 - 00:30:53.590

18th Congressional District representative. Personally, I hounded her for years,

00:30:53.590 - 00:31:03.130

not just about the creosote, but about a bunch of different things, and she was always responsive. I understood that her schedule

00:31:03.160 - 00:31:12.070

and all of the above were limited, but when she had time and the opportunity, she would definitely make it clear. But once we shared

00:31:12.070 - 00:31:22.910

our work that we did with A&M and Lone Star, and did some testing, once that was shared and the knowledge was, of course, it's the city and Dr. Hopkins, I don't want to leave her out.

00:31:22.910 - 00:31:34.060

She's been very instrumental here in our efforts to work with the city. But we were able to get the congresswoman to listen.

00:31:34.890 - 00:31:46.470

And not to listen to me, but listen to the facts, the data, the information, the stories, all of the above.

00:31:46.670 - 00:31:59.280

And she came, she saw the need, this was her district. She saw the need, and she came in and she was able to mobilize those entities together to get this done,

00:32:00.290 - 00:32:07.630

and I am, and will always be, eternally grateful for her to do that. And upon doing that, being a congresswoman

00:32:07.630 - 00:32:15.500

and our relationship, of course, with the Bullard Center and Texas Southern, and Dr. Bullard knowing

00:32:15.500 - 00:32:25.410

the men on that advisory environmental council

00:32:25.580 - 00:32:37.090

They, along with COCO, were able to encourage him. And this is all based on the facts and the data and the stories from the community itself.

00:32:37.090 - 00:32:50.800

He was able to come down, and I think we had him for a full day and we took him everywhere, we even fed him too. So he got a free meal. But we were

00:32:50.800 - 00:32:59.780

just grateful to bring that story, that impact to all of the community, to

00:32:59.780 - 00:33:09.320

the forefront in the limelight Yeah. That was just an undertone. You get that 30-second clip on the news about what was happening in Fifth Ward and all the above.

00:33:09.350 - 00:33:21.670

But when we were able to get Mr. Reagen and, of course other entities to come. and our Congresswoman, the mayor, our commissioner, and the like to come

00:33:22.070 - 00:33:34.110

in and be supportive of this community. It gave it a lifeline, you know, it was no longer this flash,

00:33:34.110 - 00:33:42.950

and then it the light dimmed That didn't happen. It's ongoing. Now the residents, and

00:33:42.950 - 00:33:49.860

I make this clear. As I stated earlier, it's not my struggle. I'm a part of it,

00:33:49.860 - 00:34:02.570

But it's not mine. There are residents that still live in the community that are still enduring, suffering, and don't know what to expect as far as the future

00:34:02.570 - 00:34:13.750

is concerned. They lived here for 10, 15, 20 years, 30, some more than that. And their children, their grandchildren, whether they live there or not

00:34:13.750 - 00:34:22.560

they come and visit, and they'll spend the summer with their grandma/grandpa or whatever the case may be. And what is it?

00:34:22.560 - 00:34:35.240

We know that it's contaminated. We know that. The volume of it, how large, is always in question. But after we've done it, I think it was

00:34:35.240 - 00:34:44.680

1906 or 1908 that it was built, and it was in the 80s that it was finally dismantled, no longer exists.

00:34:44.680 - 00:34:59.260

The location is still there, the ground -- and we know it's contaminated. And that contamination, as a result of [Hurricane] Harvey and all these other climate issues has

00:34:59.260 - 00:35:14.210

allowed that plume to spread. Having the EPA on board to work with UP [Union Pacific] and to do testing for the community to get them answers and what have you. There was a meeting last night, and

00:35:14.210 - 00:35:26.760

the results of the testing are going to be sent to the homes that were tested. But from my perspective, and this is just me personally, that was a lack of total transparency.

00:35:26.760 - 00:35:37.570

regarding everyone should know, and then I do believe I heard this, is that it won't be made public.

00:35:37.570 - 00:35:48.880

The results won't be made public. It'll be made available to the residents where the testing was done, but it won't be made public. We recently discovered that one facility,

00:35:48.880 - 00:36:02.630

the Julia C. Hester House, which is a historic location in Fifth Ward, is contaminated. And that's where our seniors, where our children

00:36:02.630 - 00:36:13.340

have gone for years, decades. As a matter of fact, I used to go over there as a teenager, as a kid. One time, that was the only pool in the area.

00:36:13.340 - 00:36:21.880

It was difficult because the line went around the corner. You'd be there all day and go in and spend 20 minutes, then have to leave.

00:36:22.180 - 00:36:31.590

At any rate, contamination was discovered there. We've always known that it was broader and bigger

00:36:31.660 - 00:36:40.230

than what had been shared with the public and what have you. But

00:36:41.300 - 00:36:53.040

the accountability aspect -- no one is being held accountable for the damage that has been caused by Union Pacific. They don't want to acknowledge that.

00:36:53.040 - 00:37:07.560

We would love, and we look forward to having the medical community be more engaged and involved. That process has begun through some of our elected officials and some of our networking partners.

00:37:08.160 - 00:37:17.270

However, we wouldn't meet with UP [Union Pacific]. The community and

00:37:17.270 - 00:37:30.350

other entities, myself included, we'd have that discussion about the creosote and all of the above. And they would say, "How do you know creosote...

00:37:30.350 - 00:37:36.620

... causes cancer?" We're not doctors, we don't know.

00:37:36.620 - 00:37:45.930

To paraphrase it, that was pretty much it. And they were right. They're not doctors. We're not doctors, we're not chemists.

00:37:45.930 - 00:37:53.840

But you have chemists, and we have chemists. Now we know that this is a science, but

00:37:53.840 - 00:38:02.810

we also know that there's a cancer cluster, people have died, people are dying and we don't know what the future may hold. But from a

00:38:02.810 - 00:38:16.990

medical perspective, the medical community needs to be engaged and be a part of it. Because if you tell me that I'm not a doctor, you're not a doctor, then let's get a doctor.

00:38:16.990 - 00:38:27.770

Let's get some answers. You know, some, positive, you know, secure answers to what creosote is. The chemical components of it are

00:38:27.770 - 00:38:35.210

well known. We know that it's a cancer-causing agent. But the question is, there are other chemicals

00:38:35.210 - 00:38:46.890

and toxins in this as well. And it's easy to say "creosote didn't do this," even though one of its components is

00:38:47.360 - 00:38:58.740

o-xylene. And we know what that is, and how detrimental that can be to the health of any individual. So it's

00:39:00.100 - 00:39:09.210

over the years that I've been a part of this and engaged in this. there have been moments of joy, and there's been moments of sadness But it's a rollercoaster.

00:39:09.210 - 00:39:21.760

You'll go up and you'll go down. But the overall objective is to just stay on the track no matter where it goes.

00:39:21.760 - 00:39:31.140

If it goes up and down, does loop-de-loops, it doesn't matter. You stay on the tracks because eventually you'll get to that point

00:39:31.140 - 00:39:41.380

where it's smooth. It levels out eventually. It may take a while, but from my perspective, and I'd like to think from a community perspective,

00:39:41.780 - 00:39:54.090

we want to get to that point where change brings about some type of -- I'm trying to

00:39:54.090 - 00:40:03.600

find the word -- That satisfies our community, that brings about a degree of satisfaction.

00:40:04.640 - 00:40:12.480

Despite cleaning it up, Beautifying it, and all this stuff here, what happens to the residents?

00:40:12.480 - 00:40:22.790

The pain, the suffering, the despair that they've gone through Should they be compensated? From my perspective, yes. Yes, they should. They've had to endure this.

00:40:22.790 - 00:40:30.360

Who took care of grandma and grandpa? A young kid passed away at 12 years old,

00:40:30.360 - 00:40:39.470

and he didn't even get a chance to live his full life. So what does his mom do with that loss?

00:40:39.600 - 00:40:50.080

And who takes care of them? Who took care of them? You know, I have to take off work. Folks say when you connect those dots, you see that.

00:40:50.080 - 00:40:59.290

You know, you see mom and dad may be doing well, but then my son or daughter develops a little cardiovascular cancer or whatever.

00:40:59.560 - 00:41:08.230

Now, who's going to take care of them? I may have to quit my job. That's an economic blow to me

00:41:08.230 - 00:41:18.710

and my family now because somebody has to take care of my child, and I'm not going to turn that over to anyone else unless I have to. I'm going to be there to

00:41:18.710 - 00:41:33.290

provide the love, care compassion, and whatever is needed for my child; that creates an economic impact, which creates a housing impact. Because if I can no longer stay here,

00:41:33.290 - 00:41:46.700

then I have to find someplace else. That may be a cheaper location for housing, but now I'm subject to whatever that environment brings to me.

00:41:46.700 - 00:41:57.950

But one has to be able to connect those dots to be able to see that. I give an example of a young lady now 8, 9, or 10 years old who lives in the community,

00:41:57.950 - 00:42:10.090

drinks the water, and all of the above. She never knew there was lead in it, goes to school, finishes high school, goes to college and graduates. Decides she wants to get married and raise

00:42:10.090 - 00:42:22.670

a family. She gets married, raises a family, and a child is born. Her child is born with a birth defect, a learning disability because she never knew. She never knew she had lead in her blood.

00:42:22.770 - 00:42:33.980

That's the long-term impact, and that's why we have to be willing to connect those dots to see the big picture and not just focus on this issue.

00:42:34.490 - 00:42:44.660

Major issue. Major issue. I don't want to belittle it at all, because we don't know fully yet, the full impact of what the creosote is doing.

00:42:44.660 - 00:42:53.170

There are some stories that can be told, some of them are horrific, but the full impact, we don't know. You know,

00:42:53.170 - 00:43:07.420

that's why we try to gather the stories in that community, that contaminated area. And as I said, we think it's larger, much larger than what TCEQ, the city, and other entities.

00:43:07.420 - 00:43:18.660

The community knows that there is much more beyond. But the overall impact has yet to be determined.

00:43:19.460 - 00:43:29.240

Thank you so much. So a bit earlier, you were talking about how crucial education is in amplifying the community's voice and what they want.

00:43:29.240 - 00:43:42.620

So, how detrimental do you think it would be that the EPA refuses to make the results of the testing public knowledge? Knowledge? Over the years, we

00:43:42.620 - 00:43:54.770

wanted to get to this point. The community wanted to get to this point, to get that entity in there that -- they hoped, And I did too -- would

00:43:54.830 - 00:44:04.680

bring about that change, get them some answers, provide them with the data or the facts so that they would know what they were dealing with.

00:44:04.680 - 00:44:12.480

And not so much what they were dealing with, but what the EPA would be willing to do. It's called the Environmental Protection Agency. Okay.

00:44:12.480 - 00:44:22.030

So where's protection in this? Okay. There should be some protection for the community itself in regards to,

00:44:23.130 - 00:44:40.180

multi, billion dollar industries and corporations and the like, just benefiting from destroying communities. This is just one story of perhaps hundreds, across the country, but this is the one that we're engaged in

00:44:40.180 - 00:44:49.920

and involved in. The community felt that the EPA coming in would be the, quote unquote

00:44:49.920 - 00:45:02.030

"savior" you know, come in and slap people on the wrist and all this stuff here. We thought that TCEQ would do that, but they would not. That's another story itself.

00:45:02.030 - 00:45:14.080

But having the EPA engaged and involved, they hope to make some progress in their efforts

00:45:14.080 - 00:45:29.330

to make it public, to get some resolutions, some solutions and some compensation as a result of it, because they felt as though they would have the documentation. And now that the EPA is only sharing

00:45:29.930 - 00:45:43.640

the data and information with the residents whose homes were tested, and the rest of the data, they're not making public. What does that say to a community?

00:45:43.640 - 00:45:56.850

What does that say to the community? You don't matter. We're not concerned about you. Who's being influenced one way or the other? And what I mean by

00:45:56.850 - 00:46:10.500

that is, are the billions of dollars having an impact on the EPA? Is there pressure on the EPA not to make public what should be public knowledge

00:46:10.500 - 00:46:21.750

from a community that's been impacted the way that this Fifth Ward community has been? So it's a little bit disappointing, and if you had the

00:46:21.750 - 00:46:33.720

opportunity to be at the meeting last night, at the end, the questioning aspect of it. Their despair, their anger, their frustrations, their disappointment in what has taken place,

00:46:33.720 - 00:46:47.500

and the fact that you're not going to be transparent in this process. We have been transparent from the beginning. When COCO and all these other entities, you know, Bullard Center, A&M, all got involved, we've been transparent.

00:46:47.500 - 00:46:59.180

We hoped that they would be in working with us. When I say us, I'm thinking of the community as a whole. And now to get to this point and

00:46:59.180 - 00:47:13.900

be able to really kind of dig in to what EPA discovered, along with UP, and be able to to share it with the community. And not the technical aspect,

00:47:13.900 - 00:47:26.240

but what it means. This is what we discovered. What does that mean, and how does it impact me? How is it going to impact me? I can't afford to move,

00:47:26.240 - 00:47:37.890

I'm on a fixed income, that sort of thing. How has what's been discovered here, that has probably been here for decades, since as long as I've been here, How is it going to impact me?

00:47:37.890 - 00:47:51.000

How does that impact my children? My grandchildren? If I'm a starting-out couple? If I'm a single parent, how does that impact me? By you not being transparent, you may not have tested my home,

00:47:51.000 - 00:48:03.780

I mean, but I'm two doors down from the home you did test. And you may share the information with them, but if they're impacted, then 9 times out of 10, I am too.

00:48:03.780 - 00:48:11.690

And you don't want to make that Information public, you know what I mean. So, I made a statement earlier on,

00:48:11.690 - 00:48:21.670

"the struggle continues," and it does And one has to, from a spiritual perspective, be prepared to fight that good fight of faith.

00:48:21.670 - 00:48:34.610

And that's what we want to make sure that our communities are. They have that armor that you only have to have to be able to fight that good fight of faith. Because that's what it's going to take.

00:48:34.610 - 00:48:46.190

And you know, you're gonna have to be able to endure, you know. Thank you so much.

00:48:46.190 - 00:48:59.440

So when talking about the EPA, you brought up the TCEQ and how they weren't supporting the community regarding the contamination Could you tell me a little bit more about that?

00:48:59.440 - 00:49:09.580

I'll make this as quick as I can. Our desire, and it goes much deeper, we could really dig into some things with the TCEQ

00:49:09.580 - 00:49:19.760

But over the years, over the decades, the relationship, our relationship, and our community's relationship with TCEQ hasn't been the best. Their

00:49:19.760 - 00:49:29.530

lack of transparency, sharing of information, denial, and all of the above have been issues. The creosote

00:49:29.530 - 00:49:41.650

contamination, we'd like to feel softened them up into addressing things. I mentioned that we put air monitors in our community,

00:49:41.650 - 00:49:47.680

and we got with TCEQ to and we had been asking for this for years, and

00:49:47.680 - 00:50:00.030

finally, they agreed to put what we call a regulatory monitor, which measures it's a state monitor, it measures more the air quality around a community There's one being placed in Pleasantville.

00:50:00.030 - 00:50:12.180

and there's one being placed in Finnigan Park in Fifth Ward. But it should not have taken so many years to get that done. We made that request, and it was granted

00:50:12.180 - 00:50:21.820

We're talking at least two years. At least two years. And we still, from my understanding need to contact them because

00:50:21.820 - 00:50:39.670

they haven't broken ground. Everything's been approved but they still haven't broken ground, this has been a two year process, but TCEQ hasn't been the best partner,

00:50:39.740 - 00:50:50.880

okay, for years. We could go into the state, the county, and all these other factors and initiatives that have been a determinant

00:50:52.420 - 00:50:59.520

for black and brown communities. And that's who we're talking about, to make that perfectly clear. I mean, if the

00:50:59.520 - 00:51:09.730

contamination was on the northwest side or in one of the gated communities near River Oaks or one of these other

00:51:12.470 - 00:51:18.240

fortunate, you know, communities, this conversation would not be taking place

00:51:18.240 - 00:51:31.350

because it would have been taken care of or addressed. But because it's black and brown communities, we have over -- and I'll give another history lesson. But over the years, we have become the dumping ground, and the data proves that.

00:51:31.350 - 00:51:43.830

You know, we don't have to just make statements. Vaguely, the data proves, yes, we have become the dumping ground for just about everything.

00:51:43.830 - 00:51:56.550

I would like to do into redlining and all that, but that's a really long process Redlining began with housing aspects and issues.

00:51:56.980 - 00:52:11.430

We draw the line here so when certain buyers, homeowners with perspectives that benefit the companies, businesses, corporations, industries over here, and the line was drawn here, but the residential

00:52:11.430 - 00:52:21.570

areas' lines were drawn here. And if you were Black or Hispanic, you'd be placed in this area, you know.

00:52:21.570 - 00:52:31.720

Well, if you were Caucasian, then you were put in the most luxurious areas or the areas that were clean. you know, you didn't have to worry about contaminated water or bad air quality

00:52:31.720 - 00:52:40.790

But I will say one thing about the environment, it doesn't care where you are, who you are, how much money you have, or any of the above. But we had what we call --

00:52:40.790 - 00:52:46.900

well, let's look at Harvey, let's look at IT. IT was over here on the east end,

00:52:46.900 - 00:52:55.110

but, it affected those in the northwest. They're the ones we had respiratory

00:52:55.110 - 00:53:05.220

issues, poor air quality, and the like. Because the plume, with the fire itself, burned for days. But it didn't fall

00:53:05.220 - 00:53:20.600

right on the community, it went up and took it to the other side of town. That's an environmental issue. And we don't know, from a natural perspective, when that will happen again. We're about to enter hurricane season

00:53:20.600 - 00:53:33.240

again. We don't know whether to expect or look forward to another Harvey, but that can happen. We didn't expect or look forward to seeing snow in January

00:53:33.380 - 00:53:42.420

or February of this year in Houston. You know, that's a rarity. That's something that does not occur.

00:53:42.420 - 00:53:54.330

But these things do happen, and the impact of this climate change issue. You know,

00:53:54.330 - 00:54:02.840

I'm a native Houstonian -- we're near the railroad tracks.

00:54:02.840 - 00:54:14.050

But the last time we actually had snow that was heavy, like this past winter, I was a kid. I was a kid; that's not normal for us.

00:54:14.180 - 00:54:24.560

But with climate change, things are going to change. And again, you have to see that impact, whether the flood would have healthcare issues or environmental concerns, blah, blah, blah.

00:54:24.560 - 00:54:33.140

But it's also a housing issue and all these other economic issues. So,

00:54:33.140 - 00:54:42.880

when one is able to see the big impact, then we lose the tunnel vision. I mean the tunnel vision allows us to say,

00:54:42.880 - 00:54:54.290

"Oh, it's just a creosote issue." That's it. But what's the impact of the creosote issue? And that's when you begin to see the bigger picture.

00:54:54.290 - 00:55:06.100

The value of my house right now, I mean, I just had renovations, but now the property value is gone. So do I want to sell my house now

00:55:06.100 - 00:55:14.010

or in the future? So what's the resolution to that? What's the resolution to that? Will I be compensated? Should I be relocated?

00:55:14.010 - 00:55:25.320

What? Those are decisions and choices that the community itself has to make. It has to make those decisions because they are the ones who are going to have to live with it.

00:55:25.320 - 00:55:33.330

So it's tough. It's a tough choice. Yeah. It's a tough choice, but that conversation, rather than coming

00:55:33.330 - 00:55:45.940

and putting numbers on the board, making statements, and things like that, just being brutally honest The community wants answers and results, and then

00:55:45.940 - 00:55:55.650

they want to be compensated. They've lost, and they want to see their community beautified and changed. There are certain things that they want,

00:55:55.650 - 00:56:06.030

but you're not listening to the community. Over the years, I've noticed this from personal frustration.

00:56:07.460 - 00:56:16.010

When those "decision makers" or those who want to bring

00:56:16.370 - 00:56:26.950

things or changes or assistance to a community, they'll come in and they'll tell you what they would like to do in your community

00:56:27.250 - 00:56:40.630

that you've lived in all your life. What changes do they need to see, rather than coming in with an ear to hear what the community would like to see in their community? Ask what changes they would like to see.

00:56:40.630 - 00:56:49.640

So we just have to continue to do what we do, you know, in the process of educating our community,

00:56:50.240 - 00:57:03.890

hopefully, we give them a voice, They can be a force that can be reckoned with. You know, it's great to

00:57:03.890 - 00:57:13.560

know. You know. We even took Al Gore on a tour here of Fifth Ward and the community.

00:57:13.560 - 00:57:25.380

It's great to know that the late congresswoman and the like were here, but what happens next?

00:57:25.380 - 00:57:37.350

It's not about tooting a horn, it's about making sure that those who would like to be the "decision makers" are here

00:57:38.090 - 00:57:50.430

and see. When we brought Bullard, Reagan, and Sheila -- I was surprised the congresswoman had never been on one of our tours -- but we

00:57:51.600 - 00:58:03.350

don't want to just talk about it, you know what I mean, tell you about these issues. We want you to see, we want you to hear it, and we want you to smell it.

00:58:03.350 - 00:58:14.290

You know, because then it's real. You begin to see these dots that we talk about; the economic, the housing the health care aspect of it. You see it, and

00:58:14.290 - 00:58:24.900

you smell it when you go there. And you know, we generally take a mask when we go on these tours because we don't know,

00:58:25.070 - 00:58:39.550

those who are sensitive, when they go on this tour, to certain smells. But we let them know that you're going to be on this tour for

00:58:39.550 - 00:58:48.020

maybe an hour, an hour and a half, and then you go home. But the folks that you See, they're there. They want to be there.

00:58:48.020 - 00:58:59.770

They can't afford to leave, I mean, this is their woods. So what are you going to do? Or, what can you do to bring about change? Are you willing to listen to them and hear what they have to say?

00:58:59.770 - 00:59:08.550

Are you willing to listen and hear what Dr. Bullard says? What do other entities have to say regarding this? I'm talking about environmental

00:59:08.550 - 00:59:23.130

justice. You have to say what should be done regarding trying to alleviate their misery. Because that's what it is. A question that

00:59:23.130 - 00:59:32.600

just remains is, what's going to happen now? Am I next? Am I next? How is this going to impact me? You heard me say

00:59:32.600 - 00:59:46.050

the picture is much bigger than what we see on the surface. Once you, I give the example, how deep does the rabbit hole go? You don't know until you get in it,

00:59:46.720 - 00:59:55.330

and unless you're willing to get in it, because that's where a lot of communities are. Yeah. They're in the rabbit hole, and

00:59:55.330 - 01:00:04.930

they can go deeper and deeper. But unless you have the opportunity to see it, to hear it, to smell it, and to envision and hear

01:00:04.930 - 01:00:17.910

the stories of those who are enduring this, you don't know the full impact. Thank you so much. So you talked a little bit about taking people on tours of Fifth Ward and Kashmere Gardens.

01:00:17.910 - 01:00:28.260

Earlier, you talked about growing up in Fifth Ward, and how you could always smell the creosote Can you please describe to me what that smelled like,

01:00:29.430 - 01:00:40.700

and how it kind of impacted you? Growing up, smelling it -- I don't know how to say this, it was normal.

01:00:40.700 - 01:00:48.780

We didn't know what it was. It would just smell in the air. You know what I mean? And I can only imagine how strong it was for those who lived in the area.

01:00:48.780 - 01:00:57.490

We were about 2, maybe, 2 to 3 miles away from the plant itself. One time, the plant blew up over there too as well,

01:00:57.490 - 01:01:06.960

well that's another story, and there were folks who were impacted then. But creosote has a distinctive smell.

01:01:06.960 - 01:01:22.150

I don't think they do it anymore, but creosote was a preservative, if I'm correct. They used to soak the wood in creosote. and it went under the railroad track. There were those little square wood blocks that you saw

01:01:22.450 - 01:01:30.550

underneath the rail track. I think they got rid of them now, but in some places, you can still see the wood blocks. They transitioned to cement and metal,

01:01:30.550 - 01:01:42.430

or something like that -- I've seen it on some of the tracks. But it was also on the telephone poles. You remember seeing those black poles. That was creosote,

01:01:42.430 - 01:01:52.240

and it was a preservative, it preserved. And they were all through the community, but you could smell it. You could smell it. The overall, and I'm

01:01:52.240 - 01:02:05.090

not a medical doctor or anything like that, but it was prevalent. And at least, oh boy, as a kid, 3 nights a week,

01:02:05.090 - 01:02:13.560

you would smell it. We'd be out playing or with family, eating, whatever. In your bed, you know,

01:02:13.560 - 01:02:21.740

cause when we grew up, you could leave our windows up at night and didn't have to worry about much stuff. But,

01:02:22.810 - 01:02:31.610

yeah, it would come in through the windows. It could be 12:00, 1:00, or 2:00 at night. I grew up smelling that,

01:02:31.610 - 01:02:43.330

but I can only imagine those who lived near it, having to endure it

01:02:44.830 - 01:02:50.130

every day, every night. But, you know, we grew up with that.

01:02:50.130 - 01:03:04.180

There is a pamphlet that I have here that says, "what is creosote, it's impact, and its effect?"

01:03:04.180 - 01:03:15.420

That's our effort to try to educate and inform our community about creosote. Its impact on your health, environment, Community, all of the above. I still have it on my desk over here.

01:03:15.420 - 01:03:26.970

If y'all want, we can share that with you, you can share that with others, and of course, they can always contact us, and we'll share it with them as well.

01:03:31.910 - 01:03:41.220

But sometimes it feels like, and there are those who who are a part of this environmental justice struggle.

01:03:41.220 - 01:03:52.260

You know, addressing environmental justice. I like to refer to it as injustices. Yeah. I mean, there are times

01:03:52.260 - 01:04:04.940

when you feel defeated, you know you aren't, but you feel defeated. Understanding why

01:04:04.940 - 01:04:13.080

you do it, or why we do it, is the motivating factor. It's about the next generation.

01:04:13.080 - 01:04:22.430

We want to see them have that knowledge, to know, and to grow up healthy and prosper in their community. And it's possible -- we can talk about the economic impact. I mentioned previously

01:04:22.430 - 01:04:36.770

that where I grew up, there were black businesses in the community They're gone.

01:04:36.770 - 01:04:46.150

The flower shops, the barber shops, the grocery stores, you know, the furniture stores. All of these, when I grew up,

01:04:46.150 - 01:04:54.760

were in Fifth Ward, and they were black-owned businesses. They're gone.

01:04:54.760 - 01:05:02.770

Whether the impact, as I stated, of the highways that divided and segregated our

01:05:02.770 - 01:05:15.340

community have an impact on it? But there are also other factors that are included too. You know, a lack of economic stimulus in the community.

01:05:15.340 - 01:05:26.460

Housing. All of the above. Gentrification is taking place. It's rapid.

01:05:26.460 - 01:05:32.800

I look at gentrification as another way to buy out a community. When gentrification occurred, unless

01:05:32.800 - 01:05:45.310

you were making a certain amount of income, you could no longer afford to live there. That, in turn, can create some problems. This is also connecting the dots as well. If I can't

01:05:45.310 - 01:05:52.950

afford to live here, What do I do? If I moved to a lower-income community,

01:05:52.950 - 01:06:05.830

And I have place to put over my head, but how does that impact the community as a whole? So I find other means of obtaining

01:06:05.830 - 01:06:20.680

resources or finances that may cause me to, if I'm a female, to prostitute; it may cause a male to become a drug dealer or gang member Now, when you connect these dots. Because I would want what Joe has.

01:06:20.680 - 01:06:27.350

I'm as smart as Joe is, maybe even smarter. But I want what he got, Joe living fine

01:06:27.350 - 01:06:34.020

and all this stuff, but Joe's a drug dealer or gang

01:06:34.020 - 01:06:45.230

member. So I want that, so I become a part of that, and that tends to manifest the the crime aspect

01:06:45.230 - 01:06:55.010

in our community. But unless you are able to connect that dot, what motivates or encourages or what leads a person to

01:06:56.050 - 01:07:06.960

go that path? Your loss. I don't know of anyone, maybe there is, if anybody knows, please tell me,

01:07:06.960 - 01:07:16.230

that grew up or was born, "imma be a prostitute, imma be a drug dealer, imma be in a gang."

01:07:16.230 - 01:07:32.580

It doesn't happen like that. There have to be some factors that lead one to do that, and it's those resources or that information that's not applied or provided to that community

01:07:32.750 - 01:07:42.090

then yeah, these things happen. Then, that change takes place, which, over a period of time, can bring about

01:07:42.090 - 01:07:51.900

gentrification because there's no economic push to sustain or rebuild the community. That may be a result of environmental issues.

01:07:52.400 - 01:08:00.040

There could be Superfund Sites, toxic sites, all of the above, poor air quality, water, all of the above, academic concerns.

01:08:00.040 - 01:08:10.320

Yeah we could go on and on. Something that you said

01:08:10.320 - 01:08:23.230

earlier that I thought was really impactful was the fact that you said that black and brown neighborhoods become the dumping grounds for environmental toxins, and you spoke about environmental racism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dr. Robert Bullard, who you talked about,

01:08:23.230 - 01:08:38.050

also wrote a book on that same topic. Dumping in Dixie. Yes. Can you tell me about how that relates to Fifth Ward and the overall contamination? I've touched on some of it.

01:08:39.620 - 01:08:52.290

There are three Superfund Sites in Fifth Ward and a couple of other toxic sites in Fifth Ward.

01:08:53.100 - 01:09:03.070

Okay. So, these are the results of industry. There was a huge story about the metal smoldering plant in Clinton,

01:09:03.070 - 01:09:13.320

but it's no longer there. It declared chapter 13 and didn't have to pay any fines -- or paid a fine, whatever the case may be--

01:09:13.320 - 01:09:23.190

but then they left. But it was right across the street from an elementary school. Okay.

01:09:23.190 - 01:09:37.370

They contaminated the water over there and the students had to -- the district had to bring water into the schools --

01:09:37.370 - 01:09:48.350

I think this was in the 80s. They had to bring water into the school for the students and the faculty to cook with and this was all because the water was contaminated. That was in the school.

01:09:48.350 - 01:09:58.360

Now, around that plant were homes; it was a community as well. Yeah. So imagine what the homeowners in that area were doing

01:09:58.560 - 01:10:11.170

when we talk about Dumping in Dixie. This is one localized example of it. If we go to that community now,

01:10:13.940 - 01:10:22.990

There's a sign where it's fenced off. Gentrification is taking place across the street, there are new townhomes being built. But there's a sign

01:10:22.990 - 01:10:31.360

on the fence that says, "This area is contaminated." It's still there. It was called the MDI, metal diversity something --

01:10:32.230 - 01:10:41.040

industries, I think that's what it was. It was called the MDI site. It was there before Flint. MDI was before Flint, and -- nothing --

01:10:41.040 - 01:10:50.850

it's still there. There's a story behind that too, we won't get into that. There's a long story behind them all.

01:10:50.850 - 01:11:03.730

But that's another example of Dumping in Dixie, in black and brown communities. There's another Superfund site over on the northwest section. of Fifth Ward.

01:11:03.730 - 01:11:13.800

They actually built a park there that kids play in and things like that. It's right next to it, but at one time, I think it was

01:11:15.100 - 01:11:27.150

part of it. I'm trying to remember, but it was many, many years ago. But it's still there. That is a Superfund Site, and it exists in two spots. I forgot what company was there,

01:11:28.120 - 01:11:38.690

I should have done a bit more research before this. But, anyway, it's still there. Nothing has been done to clear it.

01:11:38.690 - 01:11:47.800

And it's been there for decades. It's been abandoned for decades. And nothing has been done. So why has nothing been done? Why has nothing been done with the MDI site?

01:11:47.800 - 01:12:00.320

So, you know, why are we just addressing the creosote site, which should be addressed, it should be addressed, I don't ever want to belittle that,

01:12:00.320 - 01:12:15.600

it should be addressed. But what do we do? We still have other issues that have and are impacting the community. We still have batch plants and concrete batch plants, which contaminate the air. We have metal recyclers that contaminate the air and water. Because in order to -- the batch plants do it,

01:12:15.600 - 01:12:26.710

but the metal recyclers do it too -- when they cut their metals, they use water to cut down The fine particles, and when they use that water, where does it go? It goes into the drain.

01:12:26.840 - 01:12:35.850

And when they don't do it, it goes into the air because it's a fine particle, and you breathe this in. In being able to see that

01:12:35.850 - 01:12:46.130

big picture, you grasp that concept. Yeah, it's a UP issue,

01:12:46.400 - 01:12:56.140

but it's compounded with other issues, and don't think for one minute that UP doesn't know that. So they'll use that as a means to justify

01:12:56.140 - 01:13:07.250

and rationalize that they're not "completely responsible." Yeah. That's why it's imperative to get the medical community and that the community itself

01:13:07.250 - 01:13:18.990

stays engaged, stays involved. And their anger, their frustration, it's warranted. You know, I don't necessarily

01:13:21.360 - 01:13:30.170

like the disruption and all this stuff, as a preacher, but I think it's warranted. You need to voice your opinion,

01:13:30.170 - 01:13:38.410

your views, and your thoughts concerning things. Especially issues that are impacting them, and have been impacting them for decades. And finally,

01:13:39.180 - 01:13:47.560

they have somebody who is lending an ear, Whether they are actually hearing or not, they are lending an ear.

01:13:47.560 - 01:13:59.670

So hear what they have to say, and their opinion does matter. Thank you so much. A bit earlier, you also talked about

01:13:59.670 - 01:14:11.180

Hopefully I answered your question. I'm a preacher, I just go rattling. Thank you. you talked about how the plant blew up a couple of decades ago

01:14:11.180 - 01:14:18.790

I believe. I think it was in the 80s. Can you tell me how that impacted the community and how y'all still feel the ramifications of that explosion?

01:14:21.390 - 01:14:31.770

She's the President of IMPACT now, her name is Leisa Glenn. She lived across the street from

01:14:31.770 - 01:14:42.780

the plant itself, and she was in her teens at the time. She shares her story, but I don't feel comfortable telling it.

01:14:42.780 - 01:14:53.460

She dated one of the guys who was working over there. At night, you know, when the boss wasn't there he would bring her on-site and show her around,

01:14:53.460 - 01:15:02.160

and show how they made the creosote and all that stuff. And she said her eyes were just -- she was just amazed at what she saw. It was amazing

01:15:02.160 - 01:15:11.310

at the time because she did not know or understand the impact that it was having on the community. But sometime later, the plant blew up,

01:15:11.640 - 01:15:25.290

there was an explosion in there. Based on what she shared with us, they just told them that everything was alright,

01:15:27.120 - 01:15:35.530

shelter in place, and all of the above. It was alright. At that time,

01:15:35.530 - 01:15:43.210

it was a predominantly black community. So it was normal. It was normal.

01:15:43.210 - 01:15:51.550

It was normal. I would really prefer you have her tell that story because she knew, she was there

01:15:51.550 - 01:16:01.960

and there are several others too that were there when the plant actually blew up. But the impact, we don't know.

01:16:02.220 - 01:16:11.230

We don't know what the full impact was, but there are those who could describe what it was like, what it smelled like, you know the fear they had in regards to it

01:16:11.230 - 01:16:29.720

Because UP hired locally. I don't know what the numbers are now in regards to that. We inquired about that, but we haven't gotten it. But they hired locally, and that was a lot of the pushback to addressing the creosote issue because

01:16:29.720 - 01:16:47.800

grandma, grandpa, and uncle, they worked for UP, And they felt like their jobs were in danger. And when your job is in danger, your livelihood is in danger, and Union Pacific paid a substantial amount more than minimum wage at the time

01:16:48.040 - 01:17:02.420

and still does. So yeah, you want to make sure that you can be housed and clothed. So you have the tendency to get silent and not address these issues, but

01:17:03.890 - 01:17:15.760

what good would it do to feed, clothe, and house your family if where you work is killing your family and maybe killing you too? But yeah, that explosion.

01:17:16.130 - 01:17:25.840

I remember the conversation surrounding it. I said, we lived 2 or 3 miles from it and vaguely remember that not too far away from us

01:17:25.840 - 01:17:37.650

was the fire station. I remember the trucks, that particular time, going down there. Because they had to go down not our street,

01:17:37.820 - 01:17:46.090

but one of the cross streets where we lived to get to the Main Street. But just

01:17:46.090 - 01:18:01.040

trying to imagine what it felt like for that community at that time. I can't begin to comprehend what that would be like - when it was shared with me -

01:18:01.510 - 01:18:13.520

because as a teenager at that time, things happened all the time. It was just, for lack of a better term, the norm. It was the norm.

01:18:13.560 - 01:18:20.500

"It's okay" "Shelter in place" "You're gonna be fine." The stores,

01:18:20.500 - 01:18:31.010

the tornadoes, all of these natural disasters that TCEQ, all of these

01:18:31.010 - 01:18:37.110

entities that are responsible for the health, safety and welfare of the general public,

01:18:37.110 - 01:18:44.790

that's a failure. You see now on TV, Centerpoint's

01:18:44.790 - 01:18:54.460

talking about all they're doing to improve but it shows their failure during Harvey, during Uri,

01:18:54.460 - 01:19:05.270

and all of the above. And people died, and people are dying, and will die or be impacted greatly because of the failure. Because there's this tendency

01:19:05.640 - 01:19:15.950

by industry and corporations and others to place profits before people. And until

01:19:15.950 - 01:19:27.660

that is addressed or our community is made aware of it, in the case of Union Pacific, and they're more concerned about

01:19:27.660 - 01:19:37.040

profits than they are a small community like Fifth Ward. But we're gonna make them notice it, and we're gonna keep shining that light on those

01:19:37.040 - 01:19:52.420

dark places that they're trying to hide. We're going to continue to, in our efforts working with other entities, to provide them with that knowledge,

01:19:54.660 - 01:20:01.860

that information that they need, and enable them to push the envelope even further in order to achieve what it is they desire, to accomplish what

01:20:01.860 - 01:20:10.440

they think their communities should look like. Losing your culture, your history,

01:20:10.440 - 01:20:25.090

and identity should not happen in that process just because you had to endure some hardships. Thank you so much. That concludes all of the

01:20:25.090 - 01:20:37.370

questions that I have for you. Is there anything I didn't ask that you'd like to talk about? Is there Donna,

01:20:37.370 - 01:20:48.210

did I leave something out?

01:20:48.210 - 01:21:05.160

In order to --

01:21:05.160 - 01:21:15.270

The Dr. Bullards, the Dr. Kings, Dr. Lewis' over at EDF [Environmental Defense Fund],

01:21:16.670 - 01:21:25.910

the Adrian Shelleys, others, Dr. Bakeyah Nelson, all of them have been an inspiration and

01:21:25.910 - 01:21:37.330

motivation to me. But I could go on and on, there are so many. But the one thing that I've discovered in doing this,

01:21:38.430 - 01:21:47.400

in the 17 years that we've been going is that there has to be a certain degree of

01:21:47.700 - 01:21:57.250

dedication, commitment, and sacrifice to do this. And you have to,

01:21:57.250 - 01:22:10.460

in spite of how many labels you may get or whatever may come along with it, you have to have compassion to do this. You have to love people.

01:22:11.460 - 01:22:23.540

Because what you're doing -- going into the creosote issue and all the other issues that

01:22:23.840 - 01:22:37.850

Dr. Bullard and others deal with Dr. Beverly Wright Deep South Environmental Justice.

01:22:37.850 - 01:22:51.130

I don't want to leave her out. But they, and I think we all, try to impact folks' lives with information, knowledge and, you know, the opportunity

01:22:51.130 - 01:22:59.770

To help bring about change, and they don't know. There are, thousands if not hundreds of thousands,

01:22:59.770 - 01:23:09.820

of people's lives they're going to impact just because they do what they do.

01:23:09.820 - 01:23:19.260

Because they make their statements because they're willing to go here, willing to go there, they're willing to do this here. You know what I mean to provide. They may not do it,

01:23:19.530 - 01:23:31.570

but they will support you in doing it. That enables you to accomplish. whatever it is you want to see accomplished, So yeah,

01:23:31.570 - 01:23:42.750

it can be difficult, and it takes, compassion to do this because if there's no compassion,

01:23:43.350 - 01:23:52.190

you burn out. You have to know why you're doing it. What do you,

01:23:52.190 - 01:23:59.400

And this is just my opinion, what do you win or lose? You know what I mean? You keep pushing that envelope.

01:23:59.400 - 01:24:06.540

You don't stop because you understand when you see

01:24:06.540 - 01:24:17.520

the big picture -- those who have been impacted, those who are being impacted, and those will still be impacted

01:24:17.520 - 01:24:25.890

unless you do something, unless you help

01:24:25.890 - 01:24:37.540

bring about change. But I see the pain. And sometimes I feel It. We go places, we see things, and

01:24:38.040 - 01:24:52.920

and you say to yourself, why does this is exist? What's the cause of this? Why hasn't anybody addressed this? You know, and once you see it, Then -- this is what discourages

01:24:52.920 - 01:25:00.100

a lot of people. You see, it's connected to so many different things, and if you want to get engaged and involved in it,

01:25:00.100 - 01:25:09.600

you have to be willing to address all of those issues that this one issue is connected to, you know what I mean.

01:25:09.600 - 01:25:20.320

And, above all, what we try to do, here at COCO, is make it personal because we can be neighbors,

01:25:21.320 - 01:25:33.290

I'm impacted by this. You're not. I have to make you see how it's going to impact or may not impact you. But what your about your

01:25:34.200 - 01:25:41.740

children? What about mom? What about dad? What about grandma/grandpa? It has to be personal.

01:25:41.800 - 01:25:53.580

And if you really say you love people, then love is something that is expressed, it's not just in your actions, in your words. And my brothers and sisters

01:25:54.650 - 01:26:03.560

who express their faith, you know as a preacher, in God.

01:26:03.560 - 01:26:15.700

Faith is an action word. You've got to do something. Our petitions to God are great and fantastic. That's awesome.

01:26:15.900 - 01:26:23.140

But God wants to use you, too. You may be, I learned years ago

01:26:23.140 - 01:26:31.520

when I got a new ministry -- well, I didn't learn this, an old pastor shared a story with me

01:26:31.520 - 01:26:43.400

that this guy passed on and or was he always went on about how bad the world was. Rape, murders, wars, guns all that stuff. And he passed,

01:26:43.400 - 01:26:51.740

and he went with him, and he saw God. And he asked God,

01:26:51.740 - 01:27:01.580

he's been waiting all his life, "God, do you see what's going on down there? You know, people are dying? There are wars, murders, all kinds of stuff."

01:27:01.580 - 01:27:13.260

And he said, "I know you sent Jesus, but that was 2000 years ago. What are you

01:27:13.260 - 01:27:22.700

going to do about this situation now? You need to send somebody to deal with it." And God looked at him and said, "I did,

01:27:23.340 - 01:27:31.810

I sent you. I sent you." So that story, the moral behind that story is,

01:27:31.810 - 01:27:43.320

don't sit idly by and watch things take place in your community, whether it's political, environmental, health

01:27:43.320 - 01:27:50.830

or housing. Don't allow that destruction to fester, to grow.

01:27:50.830 - 01:27:57.670

Become engaged, become involved. Can you make every meeting? No. Can you do this, do that? No.

01:27:57.670 - 01:28:07.380

Maybe you can feed or pour drinks at an event or something, or whatever you can do. Even if it's simply donating, whatever you can

01:28:07.380 - 01:28:18.790

provide to help support, not necessarily that organization, but to sustain that organization's ability to do what needs

01:28:18.790 - 01:28:28.170

to be done in a community that you may not be part of. But you see the despair, you see the pain, you see the suffering

01:28:28.800 - 01:28:37.710

I would say something else, but it's on camera. There's this

01:28:39.450 - 01:28:51.990

foundation, philanthropies, and other entities -- and I applaud them, don't misunderstand -- because of this guilt

01:28:53.460 - 01:29:03.240

in making millions of dollars. They have this surplus, they want to give or donate to this nonprofit, that nonprofit what have you.

01:29:03.240 - 01:29:13.650

Because they recognize they may not have anything to do with the problem, but they recognize that the problem needs to be addressed.

01:29:13.650 - 01:29:22.190

Because they don't have the time to go be a part of something, some of them do, Chevron, but they do it because they're heavily contaminating.

01:29:23.490 - 01:29:36.540

But anyway, They'll come out and they'll volunteer to do A, B, C and D, but we would like to see more of that. But don't do it because

01:29:36.840 - 01:29:42.410

you're part of the solution or you're a part of the problem.

01:29:42.410 - 01:29:50.520

We want all to be part of the solution each problem. We talked about the creosote issue, we talked about the Superfund Site,

01:29:50.550 - 01:30:05.600

toxic sites, air quality, lead in the water, all of the above, and ground contamination. What's your solution? What can you bring to the table? What can you bring to the table that

01:30:06.000 - 01:30:16.810

that will help ease the pain and suffering, or whatever? You heard me say earlier that our motto is

01:30:16.810 - 01:30:27.660

basically, "If you're not at the table, you're on the menu." We've been of the menu for so long, fried, baked, grilled, sautéed,

01:30:27.660 - 01:30:40.540

all of the above, and we've been consumed by being on the menu. Have a seat at the table, you have the opportunity to make -- you go to a restaurant, the first thing

01:30:40.540 - 01:30:48.340

they hand you is a menu before they get you water or anything else -- you have an opportunity to. They get you water,

01:30:48.340 - 01:30:55.080

everything else, you have an opportunity to choose what it is you'd like to consume.

01:30:55.080 - 01:31:06.360

Whether the community has that opportunity about the things that are impacting them, having a seat at the table affords them the opportunity to make choices over what changes, or what they would like to see rather,

01:31:06.360 - 01:31:20.310

that will bring about change in their community. So yeah, we want our communities to get off the menu and have a seat at the table, and the only way they can do that is that we inform them,

01:31:20.710 - 01:31:32.590

we educate them, and we connect them to resources that are going to help improve their quality of life. That's it, that's what we do in a nutshell. Thank you so much. This was so impactful and so important,

01:31:32.590 - 01:31:39.630

so thank you for sharing your story. Thank you.