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So today is November 23rd 2021, my name is Kevin and I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. And I'll be talking today with Rachna Khare, who is the executive director of Daya, an organization that is dedicated to helping South Asian

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individuals and families that face domestic violence and/or abuse. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today. Thank you for having me.

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So before we get into Daya, I would just like to ask how you got interested in women's rights and helping those that face domestic violence in the first place? Like [RK: Yeah.] did this kind of develop early on or kind of develop when you were older?

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You know, I would say it's a little bit of both. I found that even when I was a younger child, when things were unfair, that really confused me, if that makes sense. And I was always really passionate

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about fairness. And what I learned later was equity. And then throughout my career, I was working in research actually, in

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bio-bioengineering research, and I was working in global health at Rice University, actually. And I started––and we're working on like, maternal and neonatal health issues. So that really inspired me to

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think deeper about the inequities that exist across the world, including here, for women, and particularly women of color, the barriers that they face. You mentioned kind of how you were involved in like, research.

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So can you kind of tell us more about like your previous employment and kind of–kind of how it led up to [RK: Yeah. It's actually I––] I guess where you are now? I never thought that––it-it's–it's really interesting when I first started college, and

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I went to the University of Texas at Austin, I started as a communications major. And coming from Houston, which is such a diverse city and I was very––in high school, I was very involved in different leadership, clubs, and I was on Student Council.

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And, you know, it was always really diverse. And when I got to the University of Texas at Austin, it–it wasn't as diverse, you know, I mean, Austin is not as diverse as Houston. And I really–really felt a little out of place as a communications major––I

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didn't––I wasn't able to pinpoint it at the time, but there–there just wasn't anybody––or there weren't many people that looked like me, or you know, it–it just––I–I just felt like I didn't really belong. And where––what I did was I changed my major and I

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went into the sciences. And because that's where, you know, many of my friends were and I–I got a biology degree thinking maybe I'll do something in the Allied Health, optometry or physical therapy or something in that

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vein; and right after college, I got my first job in––as a research associate, I think that was what it was called. And it was at a psychology lab, and we were looking at gender differences and things like that.

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And really, that––I–I liked it. I like that you got to kind of look at data and look at numbers and it was very, like analytical; and I also like that you got to interact with people. And so from there, I worked as a clinical

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trials coordinator and then manager at MD Anderson Cancer Center here in Houston. That project took me to the same role––or I'm sorry, like a bigger role, but same project at Mount Sinai Medical Center

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in New York, and then back to Rice University on the technology side. And after that I, you know, was working with Dr. Rebecca Richards-Kortum, who's a great mentor of mine, a

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professor at Rice University and so–so much more, and just a really inspirational woman, and I looked at the work she was doing around in–in the Global Health Institutes at Rice 360 and really wanted to be a part of it.

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And although I am not a bioengineer, you know, she knew my work through being her research coordinator for many years and knew and hired me on as a–as a project manager and then later on as the executive director of Rice 360.

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And so, what that did was it really took the shift from kind of like the hard sciences to more of looking at determinants of health and behaviors around choices that people make––or can't make––around their health due to barriers they face,

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related to gender, quite often. And that's how I really became interested in nonprofit work. And I wanted to do something more local, and Rice 360 was growing so much, and I really, and continue to love, really

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grassroots efforts. And I love–I love work that's a little bit more, like focused and not as––I really liked small teams. And–and that's––and so when I left Rice 360 I saw the

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position open at Daya, and I said, wow, I wanted something focused, and I wanted something local. And–and this was exactly that. So it was very serendipitous, the–the pro––the timing of it all.

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And would you say kind of like the––like the skillset you developed, you know, like managing, like, kind of translated really well? Yeah, yeah it really does. I–I credit, you know, all of

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my–my mentors, which is really the–the, in–in my work, the professors and the doctors that I worked with and for, because they–they let me dig–dig in to some of the areas that I wasn't necessarily like hired to do, but definitely like, not my job description to

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look at budgets and look at, and, you know, look at data in such a deep way. And really, and–and you'll know this because you're at Rice, there is such a celebration of–of learning and of–of––and

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of teaching. And so I–I learned so many skills, everything from the kind of har-harder, like the–the more like part-time stuff, you know, when it comes to looking and determining metrics and data, which is still used in my work today, creating budgets.

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But then also like learning how to work with different stakeholders, how to interact with the Board of Directors, how to write grants. And really that is because I asked, you know, can I–can I take a shot at this, and–and every one of the

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incredible people I've been able to work for said, yeah, like, hey, you know, take a shot at it, and gave me great and honest and constructive feedback that just really let me grow those skills and get like more confident in it.

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That's what I brought to the–brought to the interview. At Daya I said, you know, I-I've done all these years of this, because there's been so many incredible people that let me try it out.

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Yes, now would be perfect time to segue into, I guess your roles and responsibilities in the organization. And kind of, have these like roles changed throughout the years? Yeah, so I've been with Daya for five years now.

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And when we started, our budget was less than––it was about $400,000––$440,000. And completely volunteer board-run organization, which is tremendous. It's a––and you know, serving over 250 clients a year at the time.

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And it's amazing, because these were all folks who were doing it as volunteer time, you know, there wasn't––there was a staff but the–the big picture vision strategy was defined by volunteers, and the fundraising was done by volunteers who are that passionate about it.

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And, you know, since then, what I–what I so appreciate about the board at Daya, the founders, the past board members, current board members, is we all believe in growth. But we all are very mission-oriented, you know, we always come back to the mission.

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We always believe that growth should happen in–in steps so that we are careful to not undo any of the great work that's been done before us; and now you know, now I'm leading a––and it's such a privilege to lead a team of 12.

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You know, we––our–our budget is over a million dollars now. We have extensive federal funding and have just really grown our footprint in the city of Houston and in the–in the communities across Texas really, so it has grown quite a bit.

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I think the biggest place of growth was learning how to manage state funds and federal funds, that was–that was new. And really leaning into a new kind of leadership style, with the support of our board, instead of running the organization sort of

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hierarchical top-down––you know, it is a culturally specific organization, and I thought, and I'd done a lot of reading and learning from incredible activists and people in our community, who challenged me a bit and said, why–why does, you know––a grassroots

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organization doesn't have to run like a corporation, it doesn't have to be this top-down, like we don't have to follow, you know, structures that were created by, you know, white men or people that, you know, these structures weren't created for us.

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And so we're able to–we were able to slowly build a more lateral structure, and there's so much power sharing that happens, and it's really––and, you know, obviously, I'm biased, but it's a beautiful and incredible place to work where everyone's opinions are not only

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valued, but all the decision-making is–is done through consensus decision making. And so again, it's about slowing down and looking at what everybody brings to the table and not just like, who's the boss and what the org

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chart says. So beyond kind of like leadership, how is, I guess the organization structured in terms of, you know, like, helping clients? Do you have––do you like train volunteers, or how does––?

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Yeah, we do a little bit of everything. And so right now, you know, our–our main––our bread and butter has always been about mental health services, and case management. So helping survivors navigate different systems, legal system,

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housing system, criminal justice system, benefits, food, transportation, all of those needs. It's been helping you know––that–that's always been kind of the bread and butter that, you know, the–the trauma-informed counseling, and then the really

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wraparound case management services in that––that still remains. That's kind of the bulk of what we–what we do, especially with––it's all done with a cultural lens, though. And for me, what that means is that many of the survivors that we're working with,

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their culture is a part of their trauma, the way their–their families, their extended families, their community, their faith communities. The way that those people helped or didn't help when they were

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experiencing, or as they experienced domestic violence or–or sexual assault or dating violence, that plays into their trauma. The trauma becomes not just from the abuser, but also from society. And so we–we consider that as we work with

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clients, and we wear that cultural lens to really understand what all is at play. And we also try to use the strengths of our culture to bring about healing and justice in different kinds of ways. And so it's––the–the counseling and case management is language-specific, but it's

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also culturally specific. We also have an incredible legal clinic, which is volunteer attorneys who are donating their time to give free legal consultations to represent clients in their family law cases and their custody

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cases. And these are folks that not only know about domestic violence, but they also know about the South Asian culture and the cultural nuances. We also provide rental assistance. So we're really choice-based.

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Again, we want to be an organization that lets clients lead their path to healing. And what that looks like is okay, let's think about what your income could be in–in–in a year, you know, and then finding a place and perhaps us providing many often, you know, often

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it's us providing rental assistance from anywhere from three months to about 18 months. And then that–that gives that safety net so clients can work on their mental health, they can build up their–their–their income, they can find economic justice, you know, 90% of them

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have ex––99% of survivors have experienced financial abuse, where their abusers are controlling all of the money. And so they're starting––I don't like to say they're starting from scratch because they're starting from a place of such resilience and experience.

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But materially they're starting with very little, and so providing that rental assistance is a really great way to help people build up. And we see, you know, we–we see a lot of success and people who––they're–they're–they’re resilient enough to come forward

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to–to leave an abusive relationship. And so that's kind of the hardest step, because it's–it's so against the grain. And after that, you know, because of the world we live in, money becomes a-a big deal.

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But once we start putting some material investments into our clients, they're able to do really powerful things, in terms of building safety, not only for their family, but for entire–for the entire community. Because domestic violence is not, of course, it’s not just in one family, you know, it

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really impacts all of us. And kind of with regards to the programs you were talking about, for those facing, you know, domestic abuse, violence, financial abuse, etc. What are some, I guess, common, like roadblocks or challenges

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that–– I think, you know, they're––and you know, we–we are––there's–there's no survivor that's turned away from Daya, we–we support anyone who calls us, you know, understanding that it's a tough call to make.

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And it's–it's a––it's not a safe call to make, right you have to do it super carefully. However, our expertise is around the South Asian culture. And so what I think we––the roadblocks we see, the most is, I mean, it kind of varies, but when we're looking at new immigrants, immigration

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status becomes huge. Something like, I think it's between 65 and 75% of immigrants who are victims of–of domestic violence, they actually have a spouse who did not file the proper paperwork for them, leaving

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them undocumented, at least for some period of time. So that becomes a major challenge, especially if they have children that are born in the US, they don't want to be separated from those children, obviously, and they definitely don't want their children to be–to be in the custody of an abusive

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parent. And so with that in mind, that is a huge barrier for folks. The other biggest barrier, for new immigrants especially, is lack of work history, lack of rental history, and–and language barriers.

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And even for–for people who are, you know, in their 50s and 60s, many times they've been in this relationship for a long time and they haven't been able or allowed to work; their movements have been closely monitored, and, you know, they––their abusers threaten them

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if they try to form social circles, or get a job. And so that becomes a huge barrier. Systematically, though, I would say that, you know, our–our country's legal system, it's tough.

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You know, family law cases are tough. In Texas, it's very rare for people to have full custody or, you know, no visitation rights, even if that person was an abusive spouse, because being an abusive spouse doesn't mean they were an abusive parent n the

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eyes of the legal system. I mean, that's definitely a disagreement our movement has with the–with the legal system, but we see that there's these systems failures, you know, lack of affordable housing, inability to qualify

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for various public benefits being an immigrant, you know, not being able to be on Medicare, not being eligible for SNAP benefits or TANF. It–it becomes a problem of–of material support.

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And that's really what––where we–we try to plug in as much as we can. And that's where we really tried to do a lot of work around prevention. So our outreach and education program is out in the community talking about red flags, ways to protect yourself, ways to protect your finances,

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even before you're in a relationship, right. And so––and those are some of the other tools that we're using to kind of fight this–this big world of capitalism in which money is so incredibly important, you know, to–to be

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able to survive. I guess like stepping back. If we were to think of like a hypothetical situation where, you know, a woman suffering from, you know, abuse, like calls

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the organization. I guess what's the initial process, or how do you get started with that? Yeah, so there's multiple ways where, in which survivors of–of really any–any gender, any background, any sexual orientation, any

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age can reach us: they can call our helpline, they can reach us through our website, or they can send an email, all three ways are kept completely confidential. We've had folks reach out to us using our social media platforms and we kind of quickly

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move them into a more confidential space, we find that digital monitoring is a huge problem. And so we–we encourage people to––maybe this is the only way you can reach out, but then let's delete that message and get you, you know, teach you how to create a new email

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address and–and start working that way. And then you know, that the original––the initial intake is usually about 20 to 40 minutes, somewhere in there. And we really, everything we do is very survivor-led.

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So we of course get some demographic information just to see kind of what––who–who somebody is on paper, and–and then we really let them tell us what their–what their story is, maybe not super in-depth on that first call, because it can be really hard, but we just tried to get like, what is

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the immediate needs? Are you looking for legal support? Are you looking for mental health support, housing support? Have you fled already?

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Are you still with the abuser? Are you interested in fleeing? Or are you ready to flee? You know, and so we–we get all that information, and then as a

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team, we quickly kind of assign each client to a client advocate or counselor, and that becomes their one-on-one person. And really, that is the most important therapeutic relationship. We, you know, there isn't––there is––those two people, the

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client and the advocate, work in tandem together, you know, to–to hear what the goals are of the survivor. And then we, as advocates, doing the work for so long, can offer options.

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And then we go through, like, what are the potential like risks, consequences of each of those options, or what might happen. It's a––and it's a pretty long process, we have clients that stay with us for many many years, we have some that just stay with us for a few months, we have some that,

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you know, are able to kind of get through one situation, but find themselves needing our services again; and all of that, you know, door's always open for those–for those things. But typically, in that first few calls, it's about getting their

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history of–of abuse, and even generational violence that maybe, may have happened in their families, what their needs are, and then providing some education that most survivors find very validating about what the cycle of abuse looks like,

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why people are abusive, how it is not their fault, how it can happen to anybody. And then, always the goal is around safety planning. So it is looking at their specific situation and saying, let's walk

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through your whole life, you know, let's walk through your day-to-day life. And figure out in each situa––in each moment of your day-to-day life: How are you–how are you protecting yourself as much as you–as much as you can? How are you improving your safety to the maximum extent?

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So it's very creative, it's very––and it's the clients that get super creative. I mean, they know their experience best. So we might, we'll have like little ideas that we throw out there. And they'll take those ideas and really transform them into very robust

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plans for safety. You kind of mentioned how some clients, like they come back after like one issue is resolved. How–how common is that?

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So at––in––at Daya I, you know, we–we see it. However, what we see more often is that like a client is––stays with us for a long, long time. On average, it takes somebody nine times to leave before they leave for good.

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There's tons of reasons for that. A lot of times it's related to––I can't, you know, there's no shelter space, I can't afford housing, I don't have any ma––sometimes it's material stuff, right?

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Like I don't have the money to survive. Sometimes it's the emotional stuff. I love this person. They've said they're not going to do this anymore.

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And I believe them and I want to give them another chance. And, you know, we are a family. So sometimes it's that. So it's a multitude of reasons that people––and–and also it's really important to

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know that when someone flees, that's actually the most risky time––that's where your risk for homicide is the highest. And that's because the abuser is like, oh no, I'm losing control. And at its core, domestic violence is all about power and control.

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So when they see somebody leaving the relationship, they start to panic and they start to really see that they're losing that control they have over their partner. And what happens then is they–they will esc––the abuse will escalate: they will lock them in rooms, they will threaten their

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lives, they will, you know, take away their cars, their money, you know, so they really create barriers there. It is very–very common for people to also leave one abusive relationship and enter another one.

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And that's just, you know, history of–of patterns. And that's why it's so important for us to do that education piece on, like, what are the red flags, right? Because nobody starts off being deeply abusive, what happens is that it–it builds up over time.

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And–and it is––and–and that's very purposeful, you know, I mean, abusive people know that if they start off being very, extremely harmful, both physically or emotionally, that the person will have the support to leave.

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However, once you have a family together, once you've isolated them from their friends and their family, once you've convinced them that oh no, you–you know, you shouldn't work and your role should be to stay at home. Once you've really kind of created a system where somebody is very

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isolated, it is really difficult to leave. And then if they leave it becomes––the easier thing to do is–is to go back, you know, it is the–the eas–the easier thing. And sometimes, you know, we–we have hurricane Harvey, we had

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the winter storm, we have COVID––sometimes you have to do the thing that is going to keep you and your children physically safe in terms of roof over your head, food on the table. And that's–that's a big reason too, why–why people return back to abusive

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relationships. You mentioned how education is so pivotal to, you know, identify, you know, abuse, and like kind of compiling or––have you noticed, I guess, throughout the years, like any change in

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how domestic abuse is carried out, or how it has kind of evolved? Yeah. I personally, well, no, okay, I was gonna say I personally haven't. But there are some places. I mean, I think COVID was a huge

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eye-opening moment for me, where I really, really saw how–how financial abuse is like, so incredibly devastating. What I–what I saw during COVID, you know, as people at the––especially at the beginning,

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as, you know, stores are closing, and you know, you can't work retail, and all of those things, restaurants are closing, all of that. I really, really saw how that, you know, if somebody loses their job, and then the other partner

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can–can really leverage that, you know, they can really leverage the finances. So then what–what we saw, I mean, we would see abusers say, oh, well, we can only afford to have one phone, one cell phone, and so you're not going to have a cell phone anymore.

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And so you're hiding under the guise of being, you know, frugal, or saving money. But really, it's about control, you know, and we saw that, you know, yes, we were all asked to stay home as much as possible, you know, avoid

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any–any gatherings, avoid leaving your home. And–and that became like a really–a really… like, a very convincing way for abusers to keep their partners under close lock and key; you know, it

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became no, you can't go to the mosque or the temple because COVID. You can't go see your family because COVID. We need it––you can't FaceTime because we need––we can only have the one phone, you can

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FaceTime using my phone, you know; and that's just another way to be able to control somebody. So I think what–what–what I'm–what I'm seeing––and of course, it's you know, I haven't worked in the movement for decades, like so many of my mentors have––but I see that the more–the–the more divided our–our

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country gets in terms of economy, the–the bigger that income gap gets as people are––people can really––people are suffering financial abuse more and more, because that is the way to keep somebody controlled.

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Because at the end of the day, we need a place to live. And if you're homeless on, you know, if you're having to live on the streets and you have a child, but your partner is living in a nice home, the courts are going to say that that's where that child gets to live.

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And so it is a very compelling way. You know, it–it–it is kind of like, who holds the money holds the power. And so in that regard, we are really trying to build up our economic justice program, and really do a lot of prevention work in the community

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with young adults and with a, you know, adults of all ages, including elders, around why economic independence is so important. And that despite what–what marriages or couples or families

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used–used to look like, the reality is that you–you do need to have your own autonomy, when it comes––the way we have to have autonomy with our body is the same way we–we have to have autonomy with–with our finances to a certain extent.

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So even if you are, you know, even if you're a stay-at-home mom, even if you are, you know, a husband who is unemployed at the time, you know, it––you have to be part of the each and every financial decision as well.

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And you should always have access to that money. And you should always have all the information and all the passwords and all of those things, and you can't––you know, we don't have the–the–the ability to just kind of turn a blind eye and say, oh, that person takes care of it,

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my husband or my wife or my partner takes care of all the finances, because it's just, you know, it's–it's–it's such an incredibly critical skill. And it's important that the young people in our lives see that folks of all gender

00:31:57.430 - 00:32:15.770

identities have the responsibility to have those skills around–around–around financial control and have financial autonomy. Now, once you're in an abusive relationship, you have to give that up sometimes, in order to keep yourself alive and safe.

00:32:16.240 - 00:32:33.770

But if we can start to build a cultural norm, where this–this responsibility belongs to everybody, we would–we would be able––survivors would be in a much better position to be able to take more control over their lives.

00:32:33.770 - 00:32:51.770

I mean nobody–nobody wants to be–nobody wants to be harmed by the person that they love––at all. And then especially by the person that they love, and a lot of times the trap, you know, the reason why people are trapped is really because of–because of the

00:32:51.770 - 00:33:09.490

finances, and then also in our community, the stigma against leaving–leaving a relationship is–is another thing we're trying to tackle. With regards to this financial abuse issue, do

00:33:11.160 - 00:33:24.540

you have any, I guess, like special like programming––? Yeah. We do. We- we've been slowly building this out. A couple of years ago actually, it was before COVID, we started to see––and you

00:33:24.540 - 00:33:40.210

know, this isn't new. I mean, every domestic violence agency, we're always like, oh my gosh, if only this––if only somebody could have their own bank account, you know, like all of these things. And then we're working with a predominantly immigrant population and–and often and

00:33:40.210 - 00:33:55.690

sometimes undocumented, and then it becomes––and often with no ID––and it becomes even harder to open a bank account, right, without your spouse kind of knowing about it. Some of the programs that we have, really it's involved in that one-on-one case management.

00:33:55.690 - 00:34:10.170

We do a lot of work with credit unions and banks that allow us to help survivors open private bank accounts. We do–we do a lot of education around what's the difference between a checking account and savings account? What is credit?

00:34:10.170 - 00:34:26.420

Why is it important? We have so many clients––I would say probably 100% have had an abuser that has opened up some form of debt in their name. And it's not fraud because they–they did indeed sign the piece of paper, but

00:34:26.740 - 00:34:42.740

under such coercion and duress, right? And so we do a lot of work on–on rebuilding credit. We–we rely heavily on our housing partners, you know, wonderful landlords in the community who say, okay, we–we get it, and even though this

00:34:42.800 - 00:34:58.290

person's credit is terrible, we'll let them sign a lease here. And that's through partnerships and relationships that we build. The other–the other thing that we're planning for later this year is––and we were planning it for last year, but of course COVID––but is an––is a

00:34:58.700 - 00:35:17.920

two-day financial freedom seminar that really focuses not only on survivors of domestic violence, but really, folks in the–the South Asian and other similar immigrant communities, so that they can really get that kind of base- baseline knowledge

00:35:17.960 - 00:35:34.500

that's–that's so critical. And then on top of that, some breakout sessions where people can learn about high interest savings accounts and–and retirement and life insurance and all different kinds of things that, you know, especially if

00:35:34.590 - 00:35:50.590

you are a first-generation immigrant and then, like me, a second-generation immigrant, wasn't–wasn't discussed in our families, you know, like money is such like a hush- hush topic. So really, what we're trying to do is break that silence around, you know,

00:35:50.590 - 00:36:10.210

around––we call it the–the other F word, right, the financials. Because it's just a thing that's just, you know––even growing up in a home that I, you know, with such strong––my–my family has incredibly healthy and strong relationships, but we did not discuss money at all, you know, and so I think that is

00:36:10.760 - 00:36:27.210

quite a detriment. And so what we're trying to do is start those conversations at kind of every level, and meet people where they are. So you know, if you don't know the difference between a checking account, or you don't know how to write a check, that's okay, you know, we can–we can learn

00:36:27.710 - 00:36:40.800

that–learn that together. And then, people start to really build their competence around finances. What I–what I think is that it becomes such a scary topic, because it's very––it's intimidating, and you don't want to feel dumb.

00:36:41.540 - 00:36:59.890

And–and so that's why I think, doing this work in a–in a space like that, which is so trauma-informed around your abuse experience, it's a great place to–to learn it. And it's a great place to practice, because you can mess up and it's okay, you know, we do a lot of budgeting work, expenses versus, you know,

00:36:59.930 - 00:37:19.240

income, work around savings, how to, you know, direct deposits, all kinds of things that people just may not have ever heard, or learned about. I guess to talk more about kind of

00:37:19.240 - 00:37:36.210

like the integrative approach, how you talked about kind of partnerships. Has your organization kind of partnered with other organizations in the Houston area? For example, like women's centers? And if so, like, what kind of benefits have, you know, come out of?

00:37:36.870 - 00:37:55.880

Yeah, our––we love––and I really do, I'm so proud––I'm a Houstonian myself, and I've always been so proud of the Houston nonprofit community, because it's such a collaborative space. And there's so much friendship and sharing that happens between various

00:37:55.940 - 00:38:14.330

organizations. And so we've–we've collaborated with mainstream organizations, you know, all of the–the women shelters, the Women's Resource, which is an incredible financial institution, mental health organizations, you know, places like that- that are mainstream, and law enforcement, legal

00:38:14.330 - 00:38:30.150

community, all of that. And what–what happens is we find that we at Daya become more informed about all of the programs and opportunities out there for–for low-income folks and survivors of–of abuse.

00:38:30.270 - 00:38:49.100

And then, on the flip side, we're able to–we're able to teach our friends at these mainstream agencies about the nuances in the South Asian culture and what they may––what, you know––what they––where–where a survivor may be coming from, and what some of those cultural

00:38:49.100 - 00:39:03.000

barriers are, and what some of those––these unique risks are, when it comes to survivors of domestic violence. And so ultimately, the whole system becomes stronger, you know? We're more culturally competent, we are more resourced.

00:39:04.080 - 00:39:22.650

And then we work with the culturally specific agencies too, with Olive Branch Muslim Family Services, with the Chinese Community Center, with OCA Greater Houston, you know, the interfaith ministries, the list kind of goes on and on. And–and in that regard, they may not be the expert on domestic violence.

00:39:23.010 - 00:39:39.620

And so they're able to send us great referrals, you know, that––we don't want people to have to take on an issue that big, that requires so much mental health support and such in-depth counseling. And instead we say, yes, send them our way.

00:39:39.740 - 00:39:57.530

And in, you know, in turn, we're able to also tap into lots of the resources that they have. They have car programs, you know, financial programs, technology programs, and we're able to enroll––you know, the

00:39:57.950 - 00:40:10.490

clients that we're serving are able to enroll in those and–and–and reap the benefits of that. So without partnerships, it just, you know, it truly would not, it wouldn't happen. I know you mentioned that

00:40:11.490 - 00:40:27.250

Daya helps, you know, individuals––all individuals––but it is like culturally specific. So I kind of want to ask a few, I guess more culturally specific [RK: Yes!] questions. And the first I guess is, how do South

00:40:27.700 - 00:40:42.830

Asians, either, you know, immigrants or those who are born here, face domestic abuse or violence in ways that are kind of different? Or, you know, if there's any difference at all? Yeah, yeah, I–I would say whenever the–the–the––there's

00:40:44.990 - 00:41:06.010

two threads that I think of that really tie so many of our client experiences––our clients' experiences together. he first one being this immense cultural taboo against–against breaking a marriage or breaking a family.

00:41:06.590 - 00:41:23.280

To that, I like to say, you know, this family was already broken, right? So a survivor kind of seeking help or leaving is actually a form of repairing, restoration, rather than–than a break. However, there is this common thread of, what are people gonna say?

00:41:23.280 - 00:41:42.310

What are people gonna think? And that is so real in the South Asian community that, you know, that that phrase in Hindi is like, on T-shirts, it's, you know––because it's almost––it's so ubiquitous, across–across the community. And that becomes the biggest thing, that–that

00:41:42.590 - 00:41:59.530

it is, I'm going to let my parents down, I'm going to be letting my community down, my, you know, my–my friends aren't going to want to be–my–my friends aren't going to want to be friends with a divorced person, and their spouses aren't going to want them to be friends with a

00:41:59.530 - 00:42:11.340

divorced person. Right? And–and that's very real. It's not a perceived fear, that is actually what we see happen. Like, that's what happens, people lose their entire social circles.

00:42:11.430 - 00:42:28.880

And that is a huge–huge similarity across South Asian communities that I-I'm sure happens across other communities as well. But I think it is such a––it's incredibly ubiquitous in–in our culture. And the second one is in-law abuse.

00:42:29.000 - 00:42:46.090

You know, I think that in the South Asian community, similar to many Asian communities, there is this sense of collectivism over individualism. And we live in–in extended family homes back in the home country, and often here in the US, as well.

00:42:46.090 - 00:43:01.140

And even if we're not living in the same home, we're living in the same neighborhoods, and it's very intermingled. And there are, for better or for worse, there's not–there's not many boundaries around–around families.

00:43:01.140 - 00:43:20.050

You know, it isn't like––I've–I've talked to a lot of my white American friends about this. And they're like, oh, the fact that like, your mom has a key to your–to your house. You know I'm like, oh, that would be crazy if she didn't, you know, and so there's––the boundaries just look different because the family is

00:43:20.050 - 00:43:34.680

defined in a broader way. What that leads to, unfortunately––I mean, in some ways, it's a beautiful thing, you would think that you could then count on more people for support. However, that stigma is––will–will––is stronger, I

00:43:34.780 - 00:43:53.370

think, at–at the moment, at least, in most families, than is the need to support. But the in-law abuse becomes incredibly prevalent. Over 90% of our clients experience abuse from multiple perpetrators that are not just their spouse, but typically, the mother-in-law, the

00:43:53.370 - 00:44:04.170

father-in-law, often siblings as well. That abuse is physical. It's deeply––it can be deeply emotional, too. It's very psychological.

00:44:04.170 - 00:44:17.160

We see a lot of close monitoring. So if the spouse is at work, the mother-in-law is at home monitoring everything that that survivor is doing. Criticizing everything.

00:44:17.160 - 00:44:34.720

Lots of gaslighting, making them feel like they're crazy, a lot of stalking, you know, following them, tracking their movements through their phone or through their car. And so really, the abuser has like this whole team of people

00:44:35.820 - 00:44:52.150

supporting that control. And–and it–it–it becomes very difficult to flee. In many–in many communities, you know, it's––no doubt about it, every survivor becomes very isolated from friends and family.

00:44:52.440 - 00:45:10.070

However, I think that this extra monitoring control pressure abuse from the in-laws makes it that much harder to find that tiny window of time to be able to flee. And this whole time they're getting in–in your head and sort of making you

00:45:11.540 - 00:45:27.610

think differently and question your own reality through gaslighting, and it becomes that much harder to flee. And you're told that this is normal, this is what marriage looks like, this is what relationships look like, you're just being a bad daughter-in-law.

00:45:27.880 - 00:45:46.690

In most cases, when there's–there's a, you know, in-law abuse, that happens quite often to the daughters, I––and by the mother-in-law––I always think it's interesting because all these mother-in-laws experienced this as well. And instead of stopping this–this cycle in our community, we often keep it

00:45:46.690 - 00:46:00.530

going, it's–it's–it's really a shame that we–that we can't stop that mother-in-law abuse to the daughter-in-law. And that's very–very prevalent. And I will tell you that if you call a mainstream agency and say, oh my

00:46:00.650 - 00:46:19.710

mother-in-law is, you know, emotionally or psychologically abusing me, they will be very empathetic to your situation, but that isn't going to get you into a shelter, you know, that–that's not gonna––you are not eligible for most housing programs out there, unless you're experiencing abuse

00:46:20.220 - 00:46:39.090

from your intimate partner. And, you know, that doesn't include the–the in-laws in that situation. With Daya it's, you know it's––we–we–we see less––we–we see less clients because we are culturally specific and–and–and people know that. And––however, that gives us the liberty to really hone

00:46:39.090 - 00:46:59.100

in on what's happening in our community and–and address those really unique types of abuse that are–that are going on, those–those unique types of violence. And then––and I think something that happens across communities of color is distrust and unfair outcomes within the system.

00:47:00.480 - 00:47:21.090

We've seen–we've seen police officers ask abusers to be the translator for the victim, when they come out to a police call. Just horrible practices, right, we've–we've seen people judged and belittled due to language barriers, accents, what they're wearing,

00:47:21.580 - 00:47:38.700

you know, if they have a head covering, if they aren't making direct eye contact, things that are–things are very common in our culture are–are used against them in–in mainstream systems. And it's, you know, I guess, from a lack of education, and also

00:47:38.700 - 00:47:55.990

because of the deep, you know, the–the deep racial bias that–that exists in all of these systems that just really were not built for us, you know, they–they really weren't. And so would you say that, I guess the main pro of having like a culturally specific

00:47:55.990 - 00:48:08.480

organization is just being able to understand and like, identify and help those with, you know, like, culturally specific issues or problems? Yeah, I think it's–it's really great.

00:48:08.480 - 00:48:27.260

W-what–what we've heard from survivors that we work with is that it felt very good to be able to come into a space and not have to, like, explain your culture. And then also, you know, how it's–it's very interesting. Like, it's like, sometimes they'll–they'll get like, if they're working with mainstream

00:48:27.260 - 00:48:46.340

agency––and again, it's not from bad intentions, but it's like, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe your mom would cut you off because you left your abusive husband. But then, now you're saying something bad about my mom, who I also love, right? And so, I think being in a space where you don't have to explain your

00:48:46.340 - 00:49:05.920

culture, you don't have to stand up for your culture, you––'cause you really don't, I mean, you come to a place like Daya and we just–we just unders–we just understand it, and it is very like––it's–it's very neutral. You know, it's like, it's just how it is––we're like, oh yeah, that–that

00:49:05.920 - 00:49:21.910

makes sense. You know, your mom isn't–isn't talking to you anymore. Your–your father has cut you off your sisters won't––you know, like you have no family support. We don't–we don't say, oh my gosh what a tragedy, if only you know, if only your culture was, you know, different.

00:49:22.810 - 00:49:45.080

We instead we–we just––we honor that and hold space for it. And then––and there's no blame given really on either–on either side. This–this is a very culturally specific question, but one of my colleagues told me that––I guess now it's like increasingly more

00:49:45.080 - 00:50:04.630

common in the Indian community to––for, I guess for young couples to have met themselves before getting married as opposed to an arranged marriage. I don't really have a statistic to back that up, but [RK: Yeah.] has the shift kind of changed abuse or, you know, violence?

00:50:04.940 - 00:50:24.650

Yeah, you know–you know where––it's so fascinating because, when somebody is in––it goes both ways––when someone's in an arranged marriage, and the relationship becomes abusive, my–my logic, as a person who grew up here with parents who are in an arranged

00:50:25.010 - 00:50:43.020

marriage, my logic would think, if I, you know, if my parents arranged my marriage, and I ended up with an abusive partner that I would be like, I got to get out of this thing, and I wouldn't feel the guilt around it because I would be like, you arranged this, I didn't pick this, you know.

00:50:43.760 - 00:50:59.840

And so––however, it is very difficult when you're in an arranged marriage to come forward when you're in an abusive––when there's abuse, because it's the marrying of kind of two families, and there's so much like riding on this, you know, and–and at the end of the day, there is a difference between arranged marriage and

00:50:59.890 - 00:51:13.150

forced marriage. And that's a very gray area, because many people, when they look back on their life, if they've had an arranged marriage, they–they struggle with how much of this was coerced, you know, what–what choice did I have?

00:51:13.990 - 00:51:30.910

Now, when you're in––when you find your own partner, and you say, okay, we're getting married, and then you do your own thing, and that relationship becomes abusive, it is––it becomes equally as hard to come forward.

00:51:30.960 - 00:51:50.190

Because then what you have to––what your––what I think what people fear is their parents saying, well, you should have just done it our way. You know, look at the divorce rate arou––a-across arranged marriages, which may or may not be––I also don't know the statistics around that, but I've

00:51:50.320 - 00:52:03.950

had––I've heard many people in the community say, oh, well there's very few divorces across arranged marriages. And I'm like, well, yeah, there's a huge stigma against divorce. And so, you know, there you––that's why––and, but what I think

00:52:03.950 - 00:52:23.490

happens is that––and this, I see a parallel here, between kind of going against the grain by having what–what's called a love marriage in the Indian community, and also with the LGBT community who are South Asian, because it takes–it takes a lot of courage to do something that

00:52:23.490 - 00:52:40.470

is against a cultural norm. And then you want to protect that choice at all costs, you know, and it's really––it feels really bad to say like, yes, I fought so hard for this. And now it's––it is–isn't what I––it isn't working

00:52:40.470 - 00:52:54.730

out, or, at worst, and now it's harming me, you know. And so I think that that's also the case. So when there's–when there's love marriages that start off with dating, and all those regular things, the risk of domestic violence remains the same.

00:52:55.090 - 00:53:16.540

And I think that the barriers are different for leaving that relationship. But they both have barriers, unfortunately. So at this point, I guess I have a few, like, more wrap up like general questions. And the first, I guess, is, you know the

00:53:16.540 - 00:53:36.190

pandemic is, well you know we're still kind of in the pandemic, but has it introduced any like challenges or hardships? And, you know, if so, how did you kind of remedy those? Yeah, we–we realized that

00:53:36.850 - 00:53:56.430

the, like, how critical technology access is, and I've been saying for, before the pandemic, I always thought it was that–that Internet access should be an essential utility. You know, I've kind of been saying that for a long time because even as––before pandemic,

00:53:56.430 - 00:54:10.820

as clients were trying to get jobs, like, you need the Internet, like this idea of like, walking into a place and saying, are you hiring, and, let me have an application. I mean, people will look at you like, what?, you know? And then many places aren't––and most places aren't doing that stuff on paper anymore.

00:54:11.460 - 00:54:28.610

And what the pandemic showed us is just how critical Internet access and technology access is. What we did is––we, you know, obviously had to go remote because of the–the shutdowns and all the things and the safety of our staff and of–and of our clients

00:54:28.610 - 00:54:44.340

as well. But what we tried to do, and what we successfully did was get laptops into the hands of––into the hands of clients who could safely hide them or have them, and–and that became a really beneficial thing.

00:54:44.630 - 00:55:01.710

Again, working closely with our housing partners to say, hey, can we––can they have like an office in the––like the, you know, your leasing office? Can they have a room in there to do their counseling appointment? And we really started doing things a lot remotely and that has remained, because the

00:55:01.710 - 00:55:17.020

other problem, huge problem in Houston is public transportation. And if you live in Sugar Land the––you can't even take a bus to get into the city, right? And so that ability to do remote services has been really positive in that way.

00:55:17.340 - 00:55:34.230

It's been very hard because counseling is all––especially the counseling that we do around psychological abuse, emotional abuse, all the different kinds of violence people are facing––is so heavy and triggering. And not being able to read body language or not being able to like s-sit

00:55:34.440 - 00:55:49.400

together can be a little bit difficult. But we're learning and making compromises and finding solutions there. Where I think that we really––where we could really uplift our services was around education and outreach.

00:55:49.610 - 00:56:06.470

So we were able to partner––what we did is obviously like most places, all of our events, all of our seminars went online to a virtual space. But what we did was we were like, wait, we––that means we can get people from all over the country. And what that means is we can partner with people from all over the

00:56:06.470 - 00:56:25.980

country. So there's a group of, you know, there's over 30 South Asian domestic violence organizations across our country. And anytime we did an event, we brought on one or two of those partners to do it with us. And–and that not only increased our audience, but it

00:56:25.980 - 00:56:44.840

also showed solidarity between our groups and best practices between our groups, that we all really look at this issue as a public health crisis, that we look at this as something that is deeply rooted in power and control in which victims shall––should never be

00:56:44.840 - 00:56:58.800

blamed. And we were able to get that–that collective message across in–in really big ways. And we were able to really connect with other people that were doing this exact work in these exact conditions.

00:56:58.890 - 00:57:13.910

And it was, you know, in a time where it's so hard to sustain our own mental health and our own well-being. The friendships that we formed doing that collective work became incredibly important. For survivors, I think they––I mean, like, I just––e-even

00:57:15.010 - 00:57:32.200

unemployment, food stamps, housing authority, all of that went virtual. So if you did not have Internet access, you did not have access to technology, you were––I mean, you–you were in––you were facing the biggest challenge possible.

00:57:33.410 - 00:57:49.340

And–and, you know, and I think that was a big lesson for us. And what we've learned is that we need to quickly get technology into the hands of clients, whether that looks like a laptop, that's best-case scenario, or whether that looks like a smartphone that can be easily hidden, you know?

00:57:49.340 - 00:58:05.100

So instead of the burners that we used to use, now we're looking at, how do we give out actual–actual smartphones for people to be able to access data instead of just a flip phone? I guess on the topic of, you know, current events.

00:58:06.060 - 00:58:22.860

You know, the Me Too movement was––well it's–it's been here for a while, but you know in recent years it's gained a lot of traction. So have there been, I guess any changes that Daya has seen with regards to, I guess the movement or…?

00:58:23.070 - 00:58:39.550

Yeah, at the beginning, we didn't see much. So back––and like you were saying, so 2––whenever was that, 2018, I guess? You know, whenever that was, time is very strange now because of the pandemic. Whenever––you know, when the movement first started, most of our clients didn't

00:58:39.890 - 00:58:56.780

resonate with that movement, and many of them didn't even know about it. And it was, you know, this was a movement that was started by–by a Black woman, and then again, purposely or not, co-opted in a way by beautiful

00:58:58.480 - 00:59:14.900

white actresses who could bring a lot of attention to it––much-needed attention to it. And Time's Up was formed and this legal defense fund, and all of that is great things. But what happened is that when somebody is telling their story on

00:59:14.900 - 00:59:30.660

social media, because of the, sort of the–the speed of which you have to make an impact, when you have––when you're working with folks that have language barriers, or don't have like that––they–they're not writers, they're not, you know, they're not performers.

00:59:31.660 - 00:59:48.180

It is hard to tell your story in a way that is impac––as impactful as, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow (?) telling her story. And this doesn't take away from any of those stories that were told. But what–what I found was that no––none of our clients really resonated with–with Me Too

00:59:48.180 - 01:00:01.750

movement. Now it slowly began to happen, and I've loved this over the last few years, like just as that movement kind of started and I thought, well, this is not going to mean anything to us. I love to be proven wrong.

01:00:02.860 - 01:00:22.220

What we found is that as–as clients are experiencing failures within the system, within the legal system, within the criminal justice system, within the housing system, within the nonprofit system, as they are finding themselves not getting help, or having

01:00:22.500 - 01:00:38.720

negative help-seeking experiences, not finding justice, they are getting––they are more empowered now to tell their story. So I would say in the last two years, more than ever, we've had clients say, can I write a guest blog for you all?

01:00:39.080 - 01:00:56.080

Do you have any opportunities where I can go and tell my story? And then on the flip side, we've had wonderful media partners who have said, okay, this issue is happening, you know, co––whe-whether it's COVID, whether it's SBA, reproductive justice, whether it's immigration crisis,

01:00:57.010 - 01:01:14.120

you know, Afghan refugees, right, like it just––when reporters will or media will come to us and say, do you have anyone willing to tell their story? Before it would be really hard to find somebody and now what I'm finding is that more people are empowered to tell that story.

01:01:15.050 - 01:01:33.280

And–and I think it's a- it's–it's an incredible thing. And it doesn't have to be––again, we're not finding it on our––you know, maybe the South Asian survivor experience is not being told perhaps on Twitter, in a format that's–that's quick and has to be punchy, and–and is impactful, but it's

01:01:33.400 - 01:01:52.590

happening. And I do love that we're using storytelling as–as an–as an alternative way to find some healing in justice. And I'm really proud of–proud of that, because I can't imagine taking out that, like, the most––the, you know, the hardest and most harmful time in your life and

01:01:53.070 - 01:02:10.760

going public with it simply to help other people. It's really remarkable. And just to wrap up this interview, I'd just like to ask if you have a future vision for the organization, and also just provide you

01:02:12.070 - 01:02:23.230

a space now, if there's anything else you would like to share, or any final messages you'd like to provide? Yeah, my vision. I know a lot of people say it would be great if we were just out of business, you know, if

01:02:23.290 - 01:02:39.080

domestic violence just ended forever. And I don't––you know, I think that this is rooted in–in patriarchy, and––powerful patriarchy, that is centuries old. And so the idea that it will just go away, I think is, you know,

01:02:39.350 - 01:02:53.600

it–it––I don't–I don't think that that's possible. What I do hope is that we can start to move to a place that––where we're doing more education and prevention than we are doing crisis work, right?

01:02:53.600 - 01:03:09.210

Because I–I hope to get ahead of the problem. I hope that, you know, right now, Daya offices––our address has to be confidential, because we have had––we have worked with clients who have had abusers that are like, I'm going to go there and find the person that's trying to help my

01:03:09.210 - 01:03:25.190

spouse get away from me. And I––and–and we've had––I mean, our founders––this is our 25th year––and I was talking, it's our 25th anniversary, and I was talking to some of our founders, and they said, oh my goodness, at the time, they lost friends, they lost family, just

01:03:25.190 - 01:03:40.530

for creating Daya, right, not even for––you know, it–it was just so controversial. And so I think we've made great progress. But what I would love is if Daya could become a hub for the community to promote autonomy and healthy relationships,

01:03:41.850 - 01:03:53.710

because I think those two things can–can–can and must live–live side by side together, and I don't think that you can have one––I don't think you can have a healthy relationship without autonomy. I–I don't think that's possible.

01:03:53.990 - 01:04:12.750

And so my–my vision is that we can become a more––a less like scary space, that it doesn't have to be so like, oh my gosh, this is a place where people come when they're in complete crisis, that it can also be a place where people come when they want their preteens, you know,

01:04:13.040 - 01:04:29.480

children to learn what healthy relationships look like. And we do, you know, do some of that work, but we do it out in the community. And I want to continue that, and increase that so that we can start to reframe these societal norms where, you know, girls have to play hard to

01:04:29.480 - 01:04:48.240

get and guys need to push harder and transgender folks don't feel like they fit in any of these constructs. You know, I want to––I want a place where relationships of all kinds––healthy relationships can be celebrated and used as models to then prevent abuse in

01:04:48.240 - 01:05:05.690

the community. That's absolutely my vision. And I'm so excited that you know, as we were closing out our 25th year this year, and it's been––I–I met––I'm in––I stand really on the shoulders of–of our founders and community supporters that were there in

01:05:06.140 - 01:05:25.150

1996, you know, losing friends and getting hate mail about this. And I feel––I always––that's why when I get, you know, words of encouragement or emails thanking us, I share that with our founders, because that's really their–their victory as well. These are the things they should have been thanked for, but it wasn't part of the

01:05:25.150 - 01:05:40.350

cultural norm to do that. So I do see––I don't think we're gonna, you know, eliminate domestic violence forever. I think power and patriarchy is just too, too strong, and too deep-seated and–and–and too

01:05:40.790 - 01:05:59.470

ancient. But what I think we can do is collectively continue to celebrate the beauty of healthy relationships, and push that as the norm and really start working around prevention and empowering young people of all gender identities.

01:06:00.500 - 01:06:17.470

To really have that–have that bottom line, you know, the deal breaker is, you gotta treat me with respect and equality. And–and I think that's doable. And I would love to–I would love to be around Daya as––in any

01:06:17.470 - 01:06:33.640

way–in any way, shape, or form to see that when that happens. Well thank you so much for talking with me today. And, you know, telling us all about all the amazing work you guys do at that organization.

01:06:33.640 - 01:06:45.330

So–– Thank you so much. It was great talking to you, and I appreciate you all capturing these stories because I would love in 25 years to look back and say, oh, look, we–we–we did that.

01:06:45.660 - 01:07:03.740

And so–so it's beautiful to have these stories captured from our community. I think it–it makes–it makes the movement for immigrant rights and–and–and people of color just so much stronger to–to capture the voices and stories of–of our communities.