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my name is Joshua furman. I'm the curator of the Houston jewish history archive at Rice University. Today we're going to expand our horizons well beyond Houston though uh and speak to a rabbi who has had an effect on jewish communities in both Galveston's and san Antonio

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Rabbi Samuel stall. Welcome. How are you today? I am fine and it's a sunny day out today and I'm very grateful. Yes, Grateful to have you with us. Today is March two, Rabbi Saul tell us um when you were born, tell us a little bit about

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your parents and where you grew up. What was the jewish community like there? I was born in 1939 in Sharon Pennsylvania, a small city in western Pennsylvania right near the Ohio Pennsylvania border. My father as a native of Lithuania came to this country at 15. He

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owned a theater in Sharon Pennsylvania. He was a fairly observant traditional jew. He laid fill it every morning. Uh He did work on Shabbat and he, we kept a strictly kosher home but he did beat out. My mother was born in Carnegie pennsylvania in 18 99.

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Her father came from Austria Hungary and founded the synagogue in Carnegie in the late 18 eighties since he founded the synagogue there. My mother was a, from her, she was one side Austrian, Hungarian, the other side, Hungarian and she was a housewife basically um active in

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various jewish organizations, National Council of jewish women, sister and so on. The Jewish population of San Antonio and Sharon Pennsylvania. When I grew up was about 180 families out of a total population 26,000 people. Uh there was uh there were eight elementary schools and uh in

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one high school, one high school for the whole city. And out of my graduating class of 260 students, there's seven of us were Jewish interestingly uh in my graduating class Uh out of the seven Jews, four of us have lost one parent. By the time we

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were graduated high school, my father died when I was 13. So by the time we graduated, three of us have lost fathers and one of us had lost their mother. We had one synagogue and Sharon and when I was six years old it began to move

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in the direction of reform Judaism. However, it provided a place in the synagogue for people who were more comfortable with traditional orthodox Judaism. So my father was attracted to, was not attracted to reform Judaism at all. But I was because the rabbi that served us was

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a reform rabbi and it was great. The the It was an incremental change to reform starting in 1945 when they installed an organ in the synagogue. And then by 1948 we were observing one day at and were always optional. The rabbi had to wear it, but

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the members of the congregation did not, but we didn't have a box of out, they were the the club club, we had to go in and find what you wanted. So they kept a kosher kitchen at the temple, but people were allowed to bring food in

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from the outside, not meat, but baked goods for owning and so on. So I was attracted to liberal Judaism mainly because my friends were all going to the reform part of the congregation. They managed by the way to keep two congregations in one building under one

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uh jurisdiction. So they never divided into two congregations. So they never labeled the reform and Orthodox, it was always liberal and traditional. And I never forget the chapel of the synagogue had a bima that revolved. So when the, when the reader was leading a reform service,

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uh he in those days would face the congregation and then they spin it around for the people for the Orthodox, they had an organ, a portable organ. They wheeled it in and out depending on who was using the chapel at any one time. Wow, That's a

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really remarkable anecdote about how, you know, like jewish life in small communities. It's not at all uncommon to have one synagogue, but you have to satisfy, you know, multiple constituencies. And they did it, they did extremely well with ever ever having a split in the congregation,

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you know, and they kept those two services going for for years and years and years. And then in the early 70s, long after I left the city, uh they orthodox synagogue in the next town over Farrell merged with our congregation. And so the traditional community got

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a little bit larger than that gradually disappeared and they were left with a liberal congregation. That correlation doesn't exist today. Uh, people have moved out. It was, it's a rust belt city and what was left of it is joined the congregation Youngstown uh, temple, is that,

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is that Youngstown? Ohio Youngstown, Ohio, we're right near Youngstown, Ohio were 40 miles away. My home, my Judaism at home was not that fun. Uh, we, we, you know, there were a bunch of adults and not many dudes. I have never heard of Abdullah. When I

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grew up, I had to go to a reform camp as a teenager to find out what abdullah was. We never did abdullah, we never built Asuka, we never engaged in, you know, uh, so none of the fun stuff that I do. And uh, we had these,

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uh, in my father's original home in rural pennsylvania with his brother and his siblings and the nieces and nephews. My father and my uncle would serve as the head of the table doubling through the, I gotta. And I had no idea it had anything to do

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with the exodus region. I mean, you know, it was all in Hebrew, I didn't know hebrew in those days except to read it and I, you know, there's no meaning to it at all. So I felt I like the approach of liberal Judaism to, to view

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of jewish law, the emphasis on social justice and its aesthetics? I like the aesthetics of reform. And when when did the idea of becoming a rabbi first take root for you? Well, when I was 16 years old, I had been active in our temple youth group

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and I was attending a regional youth conclave in the summer time in camp Roosevelt near Cleveland Ohio, I was part of the national Federation of Temple Youth region called Nulty Northeastern Lights Federation, Temple Youth. And my Rabbi at home, Rabbi Meyer Abramowitz, who had a great

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influence on me was rather formal person, always dressed in a suit. It was warm, but he kept his distance and he never admitted anybody to address him by his first name. And here I'm going to camp. And I mean rabbis who were much more informal, dressed

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in shorts. Uh, they weren't on a first name basis with the kids, but they were people like Rabbi mike rabbi randy rabbi, you know, rabbi plus the first day, which we never would call our home rabbi that. So I said, you know, these are people I

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I kind of identify with. And then the following year, I was sent to the National uh temple Institute in Saratoga California. I met more of these rabbis and rabbinical students as well. And that's when I really solidified my decision to become a rabbi. So it's about

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the age of 6, 15, 16, 17, 17 years, your junior senior high school. What did you, what did you study in college in in preparation for rabbinical school? And if you hadn't been a rabbi, what was, what was Plan B? What else would you have done?

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All right. I was a history major in college. Not that I loved history, but I had to marvelous instructors. By first two years of college, I went to the University of Pittsburgh My first year, uh Dr. Robert Karlsson who taught Western civilization phenomenal lecturer, secondary had

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Dr. Hugh Cleveland who was a professor of American American history. So I already had 12 credits. I needed 12 more to become a major in history. So I took 12 more credits. The last 12 were not in courses that I found particularly fascinating or stimulating, but

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the 1st 12 were great. So that's how I got to be a history major. My, my plan B was to become a physician and that's why I applied to johns Hopkins University is one of my choice universities. And uh johns Hopkins not only had a fine

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medical school, but it also had a very prestigious department of jewish studies, one of the few that were in the country at the time. And johns Hopkins put me on the waiting list. I'm still waiting waiting Hopkins, if you're watching this, it's not too late to

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uh also, while I was at the University of Pittsburgh, I came under the influence of dr, Aharon Kessler who was the dean of the college of jewish studies. He taught at the university. I took his elementary Judaism course, introduction Judith of course with him at the

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university. But I also took several courses at the college of jewish studies and their credits transferred to pitt not with the grades, but just with the credit hours. So it was a very high level jewish studies program and an academic, you know, very high academic level.

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Sure. And then from there you went on to Cincinnati to the Hebrew Union College for college. That's right. I went to the, I graduated the University of Pittsburgh after four years in 1961 when I entered Hebrew Union College, it was a five year rabbinical school program

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with an optional year of study in Israel, which I took when I was in Israel, I attended uh in Jerusalem, the mother open uh of Israel and I was there for several months. I went every morning from eight till one in the afternoon and uh six

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days a week. And it was there for six months. And in addition, I engaged the private tutors in Talmud and modern Hebrew literature and uh I came home with a very great facility in reading rabbinic text and I had a great Hebrew writing style. In fact,

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one of my letters, the other was published. However, I never learned to speak well or to understand? Well, the oral part is still escapes me. So you were, you were in Israel before the six day war then what what was there? It was customary if you

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want to take that there was an optional, it was a non credit year leave of absence. Uh, so I was there 63 64 that academic year. So we were not able to see anything in the news in the old city. You know the western wall, the

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uh the dome of the Rock, none of that was available to us. We were the western part of tell us more about Hebrew Union College and some of the um professors and mentors that had an impact on you during your time there we'll probably the person

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that has the most, the most direct impact on me and the greatest influence on me with dr Jacob. Uh he was a great rabbinic scholar litter just I think he wrote 30 books and published 600 articles in german Hebrew and english great communicator had very strictly

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high and strict high academic standards. And interestingly he was a high holy Day rabbi in Laredo at the reform congregation for 35 years and uh he only went there for the high holidays. So when they had a need for a rabbi for a funeral in Laredo,

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for that congregation, I used to go down in his place and when he would come up here from Laredo, I mean from Cincinnati to Laredo. Uh he would, his plane would stop at san Antonio, we had lunch together at the airport and then uh he would

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be taken by limousine down to Laredo. I heard this story rabbi from, from Jimmy kessler who I'm sure you know well remind us what what was the family connection that that that he had in Laredo, you didn't have any family connection. Uh The big families, there

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are the Deutsches, the alexander's uh they're all connected George's alexander's the schneiders. I'm trying to think of some of the other families here. That congregation doesn't exist anymore and the the traditional congregation is is having difficulty with this numbers too. Uh huh. So so then why

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why was it that he would go to Laredo every year? Um you know he was a professor so he didn't have a congregation. So a lot of small congregations would engage HTC professors lead high holiday services and he went there one year, I guess they liked

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him, he went 35, years consecutively except for the year when I was in Israel, he was in Israel, he named him the acting dean of the Jerusalem School of the Hebrew Union College. So we were there at the same time. The other professor, you asked, you

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asked me once about dr Jacob Marcus, the father of american jewish history and uh I didn't work that closely with him but he was always warm to me. Uh he was in college was really his whole life, He was ordained, I think in 1920 he went

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to Germany for 23 years for a doctorate, came back, he taught, he stayed there and he was really the power behind the throne, there, didn't matter who the president was. He, he was really the person with the greatest influence on the faculty, on the administration everywhere.

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And he was a great, great person, great person. He was full of stories, he loved, he loved and he always said, I remember he said, never say anybody was the first to do anything. Like the first jew to live. Like I said about my grandfather first

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due to to come to Carnegie pennsylvania, there was probably what he said, there's always one before, that was his motto. Never say anybody was the first. That's, that's good advice, I appreciate that. Yeah, So you, you were ordained then and 1967, uh, on the weekend before

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the six day war erupted erupted. On Monday of that week. And that was a pivotal year in the history of Reform Judaism. That's when all the shift to traditionalism would start to begin began. They took her right at that time. Tell me, I mean, because of

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the coincidence of your ordination with with the six day war, what what do you remember about that time? Uh, oh, I remember we were glued to the tv the whole time. You know, uh, it was, I had just been ordained that weekend, starting money, We were

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just glued and um we weren't going to buy a television. I think we bought one. We're glad we did. You know we were gonna be above it all. You know we're not gonna watch television that year but I think I think we bought one but we

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were watching television we were glued to the tv if I remember correctly and we were worried when we know it was a existentially dangerous time for the jewish people. Yeah. Yeah thank thank God at all. It all turned out okay certainly could have gone differently. So

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then tell us where you remember the Cincinnati jewish community had a celebration service at the end of the Six day war and I attended it all. The rabbis of the Cincinnati community participated. There was a big conservative synagogue and then I left I left Cincinnati shortly

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thereafter uh to you know I was informally drafted into the military explain how that worked uh At the time when there was a draft Clergy were considered to be four D. Which means that they were exempt from military service. However the Jewish community needed chaplains for

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the Jewish military personnel. So what what would happen is at the end of every academic year three major seminaries uh J. T. S. H. U. C. And yeshiva uh would be told by the Department of Defense we need 45 jewish chaplains. Each of the three seminaries

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had to provide 15 from the graduating classes. So what they would do is it was a five year rabbinical course, they would classify the beginning of our fourth year. We were either single married without Children, are married with Children. And that was the order in which

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we were selected. Uh It didn't matter what happened after that. I got married in my fourth year, but I was still for draft purposes considered to be single. This is the height of Vietnam 1967. They took all people, all three categories, single married without Children, married

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with Children. They had to my knowledge, rarely have ever gone into that third category for the Chaplaincy. People who were married with Children when they were named the so I, our first uh assignment was at fort Hambleton new york, which is in Brooklyn near the Verrazano

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bridge. uh there were 200 in my class, uh 13 of whom were rabbis, 10 Reform one Conservative and two Orthodox. And we had classes inside from 8 to 3. And then from 3 to 4 we have marched outside in the new york heat. Uh one week

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during that uh that chaplaincy school period, I think it was a 10 week period. We had to go to Fort Dix for field training. So we were told when we got there, they gave us a quick pitch a tent, they said when you pitch your tent,

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make sure that you dig a trench around the tent in case it rains. I said it's sunny outside in the rain. Well, I didn't dig the trench because we had 20 minutes to set up the tent, but I set up the tent as best I could

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get inside the tent at night. It starts to rain and it starts to get fuller and fuller of water, you know, filled up with water. Just, just amazing. Uh, my first assignment after chaplain school was at fort Belvoir Virginia and I was responsible for all jewish

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military personnel. Greater Washington. I met career military officers for the first time we were jewish. I never met anybody who was a jewish career. Most of the people in the military that I knew, you know, were draftees. Either they were, you know, doctors weren't technically drafted

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either. They were, they were, they could either go in as a G I or they could volunteer to become a doctor in the army. So one of my most difficult assignments during that period of time, I was in in 4 12 by eight months was to

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officiate at funerals at Arlington National Cemetery for all jewish personnel. And I never knew until I got to the grave who the person was or anything about the person or the circumstances, that person that there was some real dumb casualties that I had to uh to,

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I had to bury and I was not, I had to meet the family at the grave. I don't know how I did it, but I was given a half hour to do the funeral. I don't know what I said, I can't, I have no memory of

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it. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. But but I really I had I had the plum assignment in the military because I said I had these high ranking jewish military officers, the pentagon walter reed Hospital Chronicle, Air Force Base, Marine Base rather andrews, Air force base Bolling Air

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force Base. Um zero Fort Belvoir Show um the uh I mean it was just just an amazing place to be a chaplain after I protested the Vietnam war Out of uniform at night, word got out and I was preaching against the Vietnam War. The pulpit, that

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didn't endear me to some of the higher ups in the military, including one career military Jewish chaplain who made sure that I wasn't going to be staying there too long. So I was reassigned to Seoul Korea for the last 13 months of my chaplaincy. But they

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thought, remember what Joseph said, what you thought was a curse. I turned into a blessing or you know how he said that. Yeah, that's that's the case with me. That was a fabulous assignment. My wife was able to join me though, it was an unaccompanied tour

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spouses were allowed to come over. Unlike Vietnam where the spouses were not allowed and I had much more interaction with enlisted personnel than I did in Fort Belvoir. Um I greatly admired the Korean people when I was there. They're highly educated, 95% of the Korean people

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are illiterate. I didn't realize that until I got over there and so was a fascinating city in those days in 1968-69 you would go downtown, you see modern vehicles and at the same time there'd be oxen walking along the roads you know and women would carry

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these huge bundles on their head, perfectly balanced. You probably see those things. Um only in pictures. Yeah, but I also admired about the Koreans was right after the 16 war and they identified with the Israelis because they were under siege from North Korea just as Israel

00:23:39.770 - 00:23:56.900

was always under siege from surrounding our neighbors. So there was that identification and we had a chance to win and I my wife and I had a chance to travel through the far east. I never I never did mention much about my wife, I got married

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during my years that he read in college, I had three student assignments, one of which was in michigan which is in the upper peninsula. Michigan. Oh you're gonna have to spell that rabbi I S. H. P. Is in paul e amazon man I N. G. Michigan

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michigan and on my last her parents were among the founders of the congregation there. She had just graduated from the University of Michigan. She was there to check me out for a roommate of hers who was very, he bravely gifted and so on and very Jewish,

00:24:35.870 - 00:24:53.600

we committed. And she was gonna check me out. Well, we fell in love on her last visit, my last visit there when she was home and we got married the following year, August of 66. So we've been married now since we'll be celebrating our 55th anniversary.

00:24:53.600 - 00:25:13.500

This August mazel tov. That's, that's wonderful. So tell us now about about winding down your, your time in Korea and it, I guess it's time to look for a pulpit job. Yes, yes. So uh while we were in Korea, we traveled extensively through the far east,

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which is another great benefit at a very low cost. We stayed at the Peninsula hotel in Hong kong, which today I think you get a room maybe for 1500 a night. We got it for $19 a night at the military rate. I mean it was luxurious

00:25:30.060 - 00:25:50.280

and every floor had it's own butler, you know. And uh we were on the floor where the butler was a third generation on that floor and his family. Yeah. That also is a sad commentary because it shows what a caste system could do. But anyway, um,

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I didn't have an opportunity. Well I was in Korea to come back to the, the state to interview for a position. So I got back in june and I called our place for director and I said, what congregation are available? He gave me a long list.

00:26:08.050 - 00:26:25.480

Uh three of them were assistant ships four were solo pulpits. And on that list was Galveston's in texas. So I visited seven congregations and second of them was Galveston's and I fell in love with the place as soon as I got there. Uh It was a

00:26:25.490 - 00:26:44.670

quite an experience of when I got the Houston airport and just over a week ago, a week before. And uh I never experienced a cheat in my life when I got off the plane in Houston, summer 8th of June 1960 69. And the kept her family

00:26:44.670 - 00:27:05.030

from Galveston's uh had an executive recommended Marsha Albert. He was the head of the search committee. Templeman Israel. He sent a limousine up from the campers to take me to Galveston's. The limousine broke down on the road between Houston and Galveston without air conditioning, you know,

00:27:05.030 - 00:27:27.130

on that road. Uh I finally got to to Galveston's uh check into the commodore hotel. I remember I took a shower, quickly got dressed for the interview and at that interview they asked me two questions and no other congregation asked me Number one is 1969. Remember?

00:27:27.140 - 00:27:42.380

They said tell us about your wife because she was a wispy. And I said, well she's a speech pathologist, an audiologist. Remember the committee said, okay, we're going to find her a job. Now this is 69 when you know, congregation expected the rabbi's wife to be

00:27:42.380 - 00:27:59.850

like the second rabbi, unpaid rabbi of the congregation. But they said no we're gonna find her job. That was the first question they ask. The second question was this that was a time when James Forman, the black militant was interrupting church services and demanding reparations for

00:27:59.860 - 00:28:17.700

the cruelty to the blacks over four centuries or whatever. What would, what would you do if James Forman came into your service? It interrupted and wanted the demand reparations. How would you handle it? Well, I don't remember what my answer is. I think I told him,

00:28:17.710 - 00:28:35.160

I think I said I would tell this panel, let's talk after the service or something. Anyway, they like my answer, they hired me. Mhm. And uh it was it was a great experience, great experience, had seven wonderful years there at that time. Allison was 70,000 in

00:28:35.160 - 00:28:59.730

population. Most jews were affiliated, I'd say Temple B'nai Israel had 100 and 80 families Beth Jacob the conservative synagogue at 100 and 50. Um some of my memories there are, I try to integrate the the rotary club. They, it was an all white organization and uh

00:28:59.740 - 00:29:19.890

they had turned down the Deputy Superintendent Schools who was an african american made the papers and I said, well I got together with the rector of the largest Episcopal church in Galveston's who later became bishop. Bishop Roger silly, maybe you knew the name, he was a

00:29:19.900 - 00:29:45.660

suffragan bishop, I think in Houston, the uh Houston diocese anyway, probably before your time, um, Roger and I decided that we're going to integrate the rotary club. So there are three stages to becoming a Rotarian, one is called classification. And uh, if they have a, let's

00:29:45.660 - 00:30:01.910

say they a teacher, then they won't take a second teacher in, you know, every classification should be filled. But they really want somebody badly enough. They'll some classified will sub categorize somebody. So they'll say, well, we have a social science teacher, we don't have a math

00:30:01.910 - 00:30:18.710

teacher, but we looked at the bylaws and found out that a clergyman does not have to go through that classification process, any clergy person to join. So that's, that's where they used to mix the blacks, you know, they would say that the classification is filled. So

00:30:18.710 - 00:30:36.510

we got to the board level at the board level. We, we roger and I met with the board, we convinced the board to proposed this. The person we proposed for membership was the mayor pro TEM of the city reverend David and Harris, he made, he made

00:30:36.510 - 00:30:54.740

the board, he got, you know, vote from the board. If I remember correctly, it was then brought to the membership, which is always a formality. They have little ballots on each luncheon plate and you would put yes or no with the candidate's name. Well, he was

00:30:54.740 - 00:31:11.250

voted down at that level. And we found out that some of the tables were filled. So there were four sitting at a table of eight. The people at the table of four would take the four uh ballots at the empty places and they filled about no.

00:31:11.250 - 00:31:30.910

And so we called for a re vote, you know, recount, uh not a recount, a uh revote. So the week next week they passed the ballots out the door. So everybody got one belt, he was he was voted down again. You know, after all that there's

00:31:30.910 - 00:31:52.730

1970 for, don't forget, this is way after integration integration. And Galveston was a fairly liberal city. Um So I resigned after that. Another I think I told you about earlier um on Israeli Independence Day, we, my congregation and Allison still had an anti Zionist sentiments and

00:31:52.730 - 00:32:11.960

this is after 60 67 which you didn't expect in those days for members of my congregation were on the national board of the american council for Judaism. Um So when my wife was in charge of the sister of luncheon in 1973 for Israel Independence Day was

00:32:11.960 - 00:32:36.300

the 25th anniversary of the independent state of Israel, she put Israeli plagues as party favors on each plate. Um And a member of the congregation who was the anti synonymous uh faction said to me well, next year we're gonna be celebrating Bastille today. And uh so

00:32:36.310 - 00:32:53.770

but what I liked about Galvis and we had a very strong interfaith tradition starting back in the days with Henry Cohen Rabbi Henry Cohen who was a very close friend of Father James kerwin and they apparently kept the plan out of Galveston's in the 19 twenties.

00:32:53.770 - 00:33:10.220

They met them with the causeway, they said don't come any further. And dr Cohen, Rabbi Cohen said he would visit every patient in the hospital regardless of faith, that he would say there's no such thing as catholic, chickenpox, jewish meals or baptist mumps. Every human being

00:33:10.220 - 00:33:30.600

is a child of God. So he visit everybody. That was the spirit, the temple buildings named after him. And it's called the Henry hype in the Henry corn memorial. And uh every year when I was there we had an annual Henry Cohen sabbath. Uh and we

00:33:30.600 - 00:33:48.480

have a guest speaker who knew dr code when he was alive. So difficult Rabbi as a, as a clergy to sort of step into the shadow of such a, you know, larger than life figure, like like dr Cohen, did you ever feel that, you know long,

00:33:48.480 - 00:34:06.090

I mean, you were there, I was probably about about 20 years almost since his passing, but he died in 52 and I came to 69, There were three rabbis in between the rabbi, he was his immediate successor didn't succeed there. He was there six years and

00:34:06.100 - 00:34:23.260

I think he was terminated the rabbi after that, uh stayed and then the Rabbi after that was there 3.5 years and he left on his own. But I think by the time I got there, you know, I I didn't feel it was an impediment at all

00:34:23.260 - 00:34:45.660

to my my progress. Mm that's good. Tell us a little bit more about the relationships between the different jewish communities on the island, between the Bene Israel jews, the temple jews and the Beth Jacob community. Well, the older German Jewish families in the temple had no

00:34:45.660 - 00:35:02.060

connection whatsoever with the Beth Jacob families. None uh they didn't, I introduced a veteran temple member from a German Jewish family to a member of a better member of Beth Beth Jacob and they were in their 70s at the time. They had never heard of each

00:35:02.060 - 00:35:19.750

other. That's how distant the connection was. The younger temple families had close ties with a lot of people of Beth Jacob and a few were dual members. We had a few families that had like Senator Babe Schwartz, his father and stepmother. They were members of both

00:35:19.750 - 00:35:38.210

the synagogue and the temple, but their primary loyalty was to the synagogue. We had associate memberships, so their primary membership might have been about Jacob but we kept supporting membership of the temple. There maybe 70 families like that. I was very friendly with two of the

00:35:38.210 - 00:35:59.760

three best Jacob rabbis, especially Jerome Epstein who later became the head of the United Synagogue for conservative tune is um um I always attended service there was a customer, the temple rabbi to attend second day services at Beth Jacob and they always gave me the, so

00:35:59.770 - 00:36:17.850

that was very nice. Uh during my time we combined our forum carnivals. We have one forum carnival for the two congregations and we did something very nice, whatever. There's a bar bar mitzvah really had a handful every year and each congregation whenever there's a bar mitzvah,

00:36:17.860 - 00:36:42.720

either bar mitzvah, either congregation for friday night by the congregation mind services wherever they are supposed to be held. So it was a Beth Jacob. We had the service of Jacob, the service of the temple so that the community would come together. We also, I'm sorry,

00:36:42.720 - 00:36:59.880

another time thanksgiving thanksgiving morning that predates me. There was an all jewish thanksgiving morning service. They alternate between the two buildings that predates me. But the two things that I introduced with the poor incredible. And the barber medicine. Now, since we had eight o'clock services in

00:36:59.880 - 00:37:16.610

those days, when the uh, when the best Jacob bar about med school was going to be, when the service is going to be held at Beth Jacob, we always had an earlier service of temple for people are saying Scottish Because we uh, you know, so we

00:37:16.610 - 00:37:33.460

had a 6:00 service at the temple, a very small one. And then we'd all go over to for the 8:00 service and a little bit, yeah, that's what we're going to ask me. So you talked a little bit about race relations on the island. And, and

00:37:33.460 - 00:37:53.030

the persistence of racism well into the 19 seventies. But I was also curious about anti Semitism in Galveston's in those days. And if you experienced any or if any of your congregants came to you with with stories about experiences of anti Semitism. I think there was,

00:37:53.040 - 00:38:10.260

but it was they were in denial, you know, especially the old german families, they didn't want to admit to it. Now I had some anti Semitic incidents with a few of the clergy. There, one in particular who was the pastor of the first Presbyterian Church who

00:38:10.260 - 00:38:33.470

said to me, geez, you people have really prospered after all the suffering you've done, you know, you got rich on your suffering. So I got I got and I had some problems with clergy and interface services who insisted on praying in jesus name, you know, an

00:38:33.480 - 00:38:50.300

interfaith service is what they do in their churches is five of me, but they insisted on using jesus name, you know, that kind of thing. That's an ongoing problem I had was clergy. Okay, so now tell us about how it was that she came to San

00:38:50.300 - 00:39:07.980

Antonio and to congregation Beth El Okay, well, I knew that there was no great future in Galveston's, you know, I saw the numbers started to decline. I came there with 180 families with maybe 60 kids in the religious school by the time I left, I think

00:39:07.980 - 00:39:24.750

there were 30 and I wanted to serve a larger congregation in a larger city. And while I was in Galveston's on there were several members of Temple battle that I knew through my youth work. Through my hospital visits from san Antonio in jews would come to

00:39:24.760 - 00:39:46.390

uh Galveston's for medical care. And I also was involved with the Temple Youth. It's empty In San Antonio had a very active chapter and I knew a lot of the kids from there. So uh several reported to the search committee when Rabbi Jacobsen was about to

00:39:46.390 - 00:40:06.020

retire that they had to uh consider me as a candidate at the time. Bethel had about 900 families with 400 religious school students. And san Antonio. I discovered much more of a texas city than Galvis. Galvis is not a texas city at all. Uh I don't

00:40:06.020 - 00:40:26.630

think it belongs in texas. I don't know where it belongs, but doesn't belong in texas. It's a conglomeration of Brooklyn new Orleans uh California. It's a it's a quirky place that I loved it. I loved the quirkiness. San Antonio is a much more conventional conservative place

00:40:26.640 - 00:40:48.760

than I found. The Galveston Galveston was very liberal, very open, not like san Antonio san Antonio was a little more closed. Um and the Temple Mandel uh Galveston's, the rabbi was the The acknowledged leader of the congregation. And at Temple Beth El the Rabbi was in

00:40:48.760 - 00:41:06.560

charge of the religious part of the congregation, but not the administrator. They didn't want the rabbi, Rabbi Jacobsen did not attend more rare occasions when he was invited. One of the conditions I came there was that I would be part of the board, be teddy. Of

00:41:06.560 - 00:41:27.130

course it took me 14 years before they invited me to executive committee meetings. But my my my contention was that there are no very few administrative decisions that don't have religious implications. For example, if they want to cut a uh an important item from the religious

00:41:27.130 - 00:41:43.210

school budgets, like, you know, a program that's very important. Maybe you want a kind of a couple of feet with teachers from the budget. Uh that would impair the, the educational life of interrogation. Also, when I got to Temple Beth El, I found the building in

00:41:43.210 - 00:42:02.100

deplorable condition except for the beautiful sanctuary, but the rest of the building was, you know, we had two small auditoriums. The kitchen was, I don't know if they it was, it was just a it was a disgusting place. Uh so I promoted a capital campaign and

00:42:02.100 - 00:42:19.260

we renovated the offices, We remodeled and added classrooms and we built the bar shop auditorium during that time. That was in the early eighties. And I will say that Rabbi Jacobsen was a model Rabbi emeritus and I had a very healthy relationship with him. He showed

00:42:19.260 - 00:42:39.170

me great respect and support. He was by far the chief jewish ambassador to the wider community. Uh they did a jewish representative, they called a Rabbi Jacobsen. It took me about 10 years to uh to assume that role because they kept calling on him for the

00:42:39.180 - 00:42:59.320

1st 10 years that I was uh so you you coexisted with Rabbi Jacobsen as rabbi emeritus for uh before I retired, he died in 2001. Uh so he was there 25 26 years, but he was very ill towards the end of the last three years. He

00:42:59.320 - 00:43:15.820

was very ill, but he was he and his wife Helen, where they were like, you know, you never saw one without the other, they did everything together. Uh She was a she was a remarkable person too. They were extremely supportive of me and I, you know,

00:43:15.830 - 00:43:34.190

I really credit them with that, that kind of, that's not that's not common, you know, a lot of aren't aren't that nice. So I try to be, but a lot of tell us about about Bethel tell us about that community and what makes it so special

00:43:34.190 - 00:43:57.350

to you. Well, one of the things I like about Beth Allen is very open to change Congregation. That's 100 and almost 150 years old. I'd say it has deep roots and wide wings, you know, uh we always had some traditional practices when I arrived, which was

00:43:57.350 - 00:44:20.220

unusual for reform congregation. We had, we never had sunday morning services like the midwestern reform congregations, they weren't Shabbat service by their, their weekday, but they were major services. We always permitted bar and Bat mitzvah. Unlike the Temple Atlanta that didn't have until 1972 we always

00:44:20.220 - 00:44:37.370

had them. So the emphasis was primarily on confirmation and we had a two day week midweek program plus sunday, which was very unusual. Reform. Some had only a one day a week school or at most one day and one weekday. We had two midweek class days

00:44:37.380 - 00:44:56.530

plus sunday. So it was very unusual. So one of the first changes I introduced even before I got there, we, we changed from the Union prayer book, volume one to Gates of Prayer, which is a slightly more traditional reformed liturgy. A few years later we adopted

00:44:56.530 - 00:45:17.650

the high holiday marks or Gates of Repentance to replace Union prayer book, volume two. Um, we added the chanting of the Torah blessings and eventually the chanting of the itself. Uh we, I added to my black as well as my white road and towards the end

00:45:17.650 - 00:45:32.990

of my tenure there we make ipod available, I don't know if you know, but it was, it was considered against the bylaws to wear a head covering in the temple. When did you, did you know that? I can, I can believe it. Um you, there was

00:45:32.990 - 00:45:48.420

a medical thesis that was done by Rabbi William sage wits who was a an interim Rabbi Temple Beth El during the year that Rabbi Jacobsen was in the chapels in 1945 to 40 44 to 45. He wrote his thesis on the history of Temple Beth El.

00:45:48.430 - 00:46:06.170

And I will send you the section of the thesis that talks about the fact that it was it was against the bylaws to wear a hat in the temple except for the minister as they call them. Yeah, that sounds pretty in line with with classical reform

00:46:06.170 - 00:46:26.650

Judaism with changes that they that they made. Yeah. Now the rabbis were two of the rabbis working but uh the Canada doesn't Members more members than they did before. When I yes, when I when I would have attended in the in the early to mid-1990s, very

00:46:26.650 - 00:46:49.850

very few. Which which of those changes in reform Jewish practice. Rabbi Stall would you say were the most controversial? The most difficult for your members to accept. Uh None of them really because they were done the prayer book, maybe you're going from. And the problem wasn't

00:46:49.850 - 00:47:08.730

the contents but the Union prayer book was a thin volume. And Gates of prayer was heavy. So they the complaint was too heavy to hold. And then they came out with like a version with a thinner thinner paper, you know, maybe about £12 papers and £5

00:47:08.730 - 00:47:26.190

paper, whatever. I don't know the measurements of paper. But it may came out with because a lot of people complained. That was the biggest complaint I got was the heaviness of the book, but but I put the on, you know, no problem. No, no one started

00:47:26.190 - 00:47:48.180

spinning in their grave and it's also a you know, it wasn't a big one that goes over the shoulders, it was a very neat so no, no, no. One of the questions that they asked when I interviewed, there were two questions that they asked um ritually

00:47:48.180 - 00:48:08.650

speaking, would I? It's just not where I keep on the pulpit and what I perform in our marriages. Okay. And the biggest controversy I had was not over rituals over by not performing intermarriages. I've never performed it in a marriage. That was the biggest controversy today.

00:48:08.650 - 00:48:25.260

I might consider doing it under certain circumstances if they would have a jewish family and have Judaism is an exclusive religion of the household and so on, but never in my career have I got an intermarriage and and that that probably sets you apart from many

00:48:25.260 - 00:48:46.470

of your colleagues I imagine. Well rabbi jacobsen never performed in their marriage either. So they used to talk about bringing in a rent, a rabbi, you know, there were some rabbis in texas that would do this for feet right, sure. Tell us about speaking about your

00:48:46.480 - 00:49:04.040

rabbinic colleagues. So I I grew up as you know in san Antonio and my family have been members of san Antonio's um congregation rode facial um which is an Orthodox congregation for many years and in many cities, you know clergy of different jewish denominations may have

00:49:04.040 - 00:49:25.060

little to do with each other, but you have enjoyed a decades long um the working relationship, if not friendship with Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg. So tell us about that. Tell us about how that relationship developed. Well, I met Rabbi Shepherd for the first time, interestingly enough, my,

00:49:25.070 - 00:49:44.770

my temple and Galveston's, we had a texas color of texas rabbis meeting, you know that organization? I do, yeah, I don't believe it's been around for a while. No, it ended around 18 1987 88 something like that. Anyway, it was very active in this is 1976

00:49:44.780 - 00:50:05.120

and I was already elected to the pulpit of Temple Beth El and he was attending the color texas Rabbis meeting that was held in our temple in Galveston's. Uh he introduced himself, welcomed me warmly and we had instant chemistry from that point on. And uh, I

00:50:05.120 - 00:50:22.250

was determined to come to san Antonio and become a bridge builder within the jewish community between the jewish community and the wider and that if I ever want to be remembered for anything, I want to be remembered as a bridge builder. And uh Rabbi Scheinberg and

00:50:22.250 - 00:50:38.330

I as I said, had a wonderful relationship. In fact, I was so honored when he gave me one of his father's books. His father was a great expert, he wrote a book of what is a volume one, volume two. He gave me volume one and volume

00:50:38.330 - 00:51:01.020

two and volume one. He and he inscribed in hebrew addressing me as which is not uh that's reserved for orthodox rabbis, you know, to be called that not race other baby, you know, as you see the press. Um so I was very honored by that. Um

00:51:01.030 - 00:51:20.210

I always respected as a locking requirements when we appreciated together at weddings, even when they were in the temple, I was aware that he will not be, he would not accept reform and conversion reform conversions or conservative conversions to Judaism for purposes. But he did respect

00:51:20.220 - 00:51:38.380

jews who were converted by non Orthodox rabbis for communal purposes, which is very interesting. So for for commercial purposes, he would have no problem with the reform convert being president of the jewish federation, President of JCC jewish Family Service, something like that. They could not call

00:51:38.380 - 00:51:58.740

that person to the Torah or count that person in the meeting and Rabbi Scheinberg, but I got my, when I was awarded a uh, when I was honored by the Israel Bond organization, uh I asked that he be the presenter of the award and he spoke

00:51:58.740 - 00:52:16.330

of my retirement. So we've had a very good relationship. Yeah, that's that's really wonderful. And and you know that the two of you have had, you know, Yeah, that's right. You did make national news and and deservedly so and and leave quite a legacy for the

00:52:16.330 - 00:52:32.610

san Antonio jewish community to, to follow maybe maybe rabbi just reflect a little bit more on the san Antonio jewish community that, you know, you've been a part of for so long now. And what you think makes it unique, I think what makes it unique is

00:52:32.610 - 00:52:55.630

the, the closeness of, even though I think since 2001 with the uh 9, 11 and the second intifada around that time, there's been a division over Israel, but still it hasn't affected people's friendships at any bar about Medford. Any of the synagogues, you'll see people from

00:52:55.630 - 00:53:17.570

all the congregations. So that's what I think makes it unique. People's friendships are not along congregational lines at all in san Antonio. And you probably have noticed that. Sure. Yeah. No, my own, my own family. Would your own family as you have friends from temple? Sure,

00:53:17.580 - 00:53:39.520

absolutely. I would love to hear a little bit about how you've managed, you know, this last, these last 12 months. Um, what what what does jewish practice been like for you during the, during the pandemic? How are you holidays? I'm barely impacted compared to my colleagues

00:53:39.520 - 00:54:00.060

who are selected. You know, uh, where they have to do everything by zoom. It's very, very difficult. Uh b I I sit on watch services on zoom. Uh we watched services. I could watch him not only a temple can watch them anywhere in the country. Um,

00:54:00.070 - 00:54:18.090

then we have Shabbat dinner morning, you know, whatever. Uh for the high holidays we watched services. But I got dressed in a suit for the high holidays even that nobody saw me. I got dressed in a suit for all the high holidays. Yeah, it's it's important

00:54:18.090 - 00:54:42.030

right, minimal impact jewish you know, because I'm not a congregational rap right now. Yeah, sure. Well hope hopefully you know we're we're all be vaccinated soon and we can start um looking forward some kind of you know. Yeah. What have you as we as we kind

00:54:42.030 - 00:54:57.840

of wind down here and get towards the end of the conversation. What is it that you have loved most about being a rabbi and what is it over your long career that you found most challenging about the pulpit. Alright. What I like most. I like the

00:54:57.850 - 00:55:16.260

preaching once I got the servant prepared and edited getting to. It was a challenge. I I enjoyed hospital visits. I'll tell you why many of these people that I met in the hospital some of my congregants I would never have had any interaction with because they

00:55:16.260 - 00:55:32.790

come twice a year there in a mass of people. And this way I get I got to know a lot of congregants more intimately by visiting them in the hospital. So that I found very valuable Uh the challenge of course was that San Antonio unlike other

00:55:32.790 - 00:55:52.400

cities sort of closing down hospitals, we kept adding new ones. So there are some weeks I visited 10 hospitals, we had patients from our congregation in the four downtown hospitals and several of the medical center plus the two military hospitals? Wilford Hall and Fort Sam the

00:55:52.400 - 00:56:15.730

brook army hospital. So the hospital is I enjoy, I like working with my colleagues both in the jewish community and in the world. I really love lecturing at churches and civic events and officiating at life cycles all the funerals. I love doing uh baby naming bridges.

00:56:15.740 - 00:56:38.550

Um Barb weddings but not. There are a number of issues of, you know what I like least funerals. I'm still that's one thing. I'm still doing something step. In fact, I've got a eulogy to give the next thursday. I don't appear in person now during Covid.

00:56:38.550 - 00:56:59.470

I'm writing it out and will be reading my eulogy. Yeah. Have you done that several times now? Written a eulogy that another clergy member has? Yes or there's a zoom memorial median like a Shiva minion and I'll speak on zoom for that. Got it. Yeah. But

00:56:59.470 - 00:57:17.730

if the graveside, they'll read my, I don't go to the grave site. So I will probably, once the covid is over even though I'm vaccinated other people aren't. So yeah. What are you, what are you most looking forward to doing again when, when the pandemic is

00:57:17.730 - 00:57:39.740

over? Whenever that whenever we can decide that, you know, it's time to to go back to normal. What what regular activity have you missed most these past 12 months. Yeah. Uh We have a daughter in Bethesda Maryland with four Children and another daughter in the in

00:57:39.750 - 00:58:05.450

Irvine California with two Children. We haven't seen the daughter in Maryland since a year ago, thanksgiving 2019. And the daughter in uh in California since february, january, february uh of this past year 2019, 2020 20. Yeah, yeah. Looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to that.

00:58:05.460 - 00:58:27.600

I'm ambivalent about going back to services in person, you know, having to get dressed up and drive down and uh I don't know, I I missed the community, but yet there's some advantage of this. Um but I'm still, I'm still doing a lot of things now

00:58:27.600 - 00:58:46.780

I have to study partners. I'm studying with Rabbi David Komarovsky, who's now in Canton. Ohio, he had been in san Antonio. I studied with him Tuesday morning, which I did this morning. I'm studying on thursday with Rabbi Benjamin Richards of Rabbi there and we studied the

00:58:46.780 - 00:59:08.280

portion of the week, state the various hebrew text and commentaries on the portion of the week. Um So one of the great advantages you asked about handling Covid, another plus is that Lynn and I have had lunch together every day, which we never, we rarely had

00:59:08.280 - 00:59:28.110

lunch together before Covid, but now we we've had lunch together every single days have been great, wow. It's important to find the silver lining in every situation And it sounds like you you've managed to do that as much as I'm sure you miss seeing your Children

00:59:28.110 - 00:59:45.560

and grandchildren. Hopefully it won't be much longer before you're able to do that Rabbi stall thank you so much for taking the time to to talk to me today and sharing your memories of um your childhood and your rabbinical training and your time in Galveston's and

00:59:45.560 - 00:59:52.370

and san Antonio. It's really been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure to be with you, josh. Good luck to you. Thank you so much.