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today is May 5th 2021. My name is Joshua furman. I am the curator of the Houston jewish history archive at Rice University and I'm here with Rabbi Roy walter, Rabbi emeritus of Congregation Emanuel in Houston Rabbi, how are you today? Thank God I'm well feeling good

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and you Great. I'm doing great. It's great to be with you in the bear sanctuary on the bima and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. It'll be fun. So let's start by if I can remember anything. Oh, I think you can. I think so. Tell

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us when you were born and tell us a little bit about your parents and what your jewish upbringing was like in Memphis Tennessee Born in 1942 um have a hadn't have an older brother and had a younger sister, she passed away. Um My parents were both

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born in the south. My mother in mobile Alabama. Uh my father in Memphis uh both of their parents were immigrants from Romania, all four of them. Um I grew up in Baron Hirsch synagogue, which is at the time I think was the largest Orthodox synagogue in

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the United States. Uh grew up one block from there actually. Um we belonged to an Orthodox synagogue, but it would be improper to say that we were orthodox. Um we did not keep kosher although my mother did at one point early in their life, but not

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once her Children were born for it's a story not worth repeating, but anyhow. So we were not Schomer shahbaz. We were not kosher. Um My parents went to keeper for our friend's kid's bar mitzvah, that we were not sure going people uh at all. Uh my

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dad was the breadwinner and mom did not work. My mother, however was a very active volunteer, particularly in Hadassah to, she was a regional president, served on the national board. Um and I think, I think my dad though not consistently served on the Baron Hirsch board

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of directors for a couple of couple of years, nothing specific. I mean, he, he was the breadwinner and back then, you know, that meant working 67 days a week uh to earn a good living for the family. So he really didn't have a lot of volunteer

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time um as he got older, he was always athletic, but so as he got older, he would spend more time doing some sports playing golf and always played racquetball, but so he didn't really have a lot of time for community activities, but mother did um she

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also served on the board of what they used to call the National Conference of christians and jews. Um so um I grew up in a home that was, I would say very jewish, though, not observant in that sense, always with a sense of community. I remember

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my father much later in his life, shortly before he died, he still belonged to the jewish community center and had not for years been able to use it and I said, why do you still belong? He said because so it will be there for other people.

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So that sense of jewish community being a part of it, being active in it supporting it is something that I was raised with On the personal level. Um I went to public high school um with the hater was bar Mitzvah in 1955. Um my father's parents

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had both died by the time of my bar mitzvah. Uh my mom's parents were still living and my grandfather could not attend my bar mitzvah. So my mother took me down to a recording studio. This is, I don't, I have a recording of my bar mitzvah.

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We went down to a recording studio. Um I still have a copy of it. I even have it transferred into my computer um with my southern accent Sandbar who is out of rock. Uh that's what it sounds like, I'm not kidding. Um So I have that

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recording which is most unusual and it was only because my grandfather was ill that we did that. But as I said, we grew up one block from the synagogue and I can't tell you at what point. But as a young child, I I always loved being

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in synagogue. It was very, Very powerful, meaning I don't know that I would say powerful back then, but very meaningful to me. And so I began to go to shul on Shabbas on Friday nights, I didn't go Saturday mornings, but I went Friday nights almost every

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week on my own for several years until I was about 15 or 16. And you know, I guess teenage years took over and that you know, I didn't do that regularly anymore. But so um when I announced to my parents uh many years later when I

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was a senior in college that I wanted to be a rabbi, it did not come as a surprise to them at all. Uh they were very supportive unlike my college roommate who is also a rabbi and we had to peel his father out the ceiling because

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he sent his son to too late to be a doctor. That's great. I want to, I want to talk more about your decision to enter the rabbit and um and also how you gravitated from um an Orthodox background, even if it was a non observant Orthodox

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background into a career as a Reform rabbi. Before we get to that, tell us a little bit more about Memphis in those years, both in terms of race relations, but also in terms of growing up jewish in the south. I mean, did you, was there anti

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Semitism that you remember experiencing? The truth is, I don't remember antisemitism. Um growing up, I'm not gonna say it wasn't there. Um but certainly none that that impacted my life, none that I was aware of race relations. I don't have to tell you what it must

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have been like in Memphis in the fifties when I was growing up um my father owned a grocery store in an african american neighborhood and I used to go sometimes on uh on weekends and work out and work in the store. Not really work but help

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out kind of thing. And uh so I I grew up watching what poor black people lived like how they lived and how they felt like they were treated because they were the man who worked for. My father was pretty much of a racist and I remember

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asking my father how he could allow him to work in his store. Uh My father I'll tell you a funny story about my dad, I don't know that I would say my dad was a racist but he he was big and he was born and raised

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in the south. It wasn't bigotry to him, it's just how he grew up it's you know um But he never treated anybody who walked in his store or that he dealt with any different than he would have a white person. He he was known as Mr

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Abe. His first name was Abe was known as Mr Abe and it was known that if you if you needed food and you didn't get your paycheck or you were out of work. Mr abc that you got something to eat. So my father always treated people

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as human beings and never never treated people with prejudice. He just in his mind I think by my standards today was again, I didn't think of it as prejudice at the time, you know what I mean? Because that's just the world. I do remember as a

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child wondering why the woman who we had a maid, like most people in the south, uh five days a week, she would come and clean the house and serve dinner and then we take her home. And I remember wondering why the woman who used the same

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toilet at the house that I did and ate off the same plates with the same silverware that I did in my home, couldn't, couldn't do that in a restaurant or lead over a water fountain. And I remember, I didn't understand that it was always a puzzle

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to me. Um, but that's the world I grew up in. I didn't sit in a classroom with a black person till I was a senior in college at Tulane University, uh, two separate school systems. Uh, my dad's store, however, was next door to a church and

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I would sometimes they would be having choir practice on saturday. I grew up listening to gospel music, which I still loved to this day because I grew up with it. But it was, it was a bigoted world that I grew up in. Um, I never had

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a single social encounter that I can remember with a black person other than as the maid or this person sweeping the street or you know, the guy working for my dad, you know etcetera. So he did hire black people to work, he had a black butcher.

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So there's a whole history as you know of you know jewish families owning grocery stores, furniture stores in the south. And I think on your mother's side also right there's everything on credit. Yeah. Yeah there was a furniture store still is right in in mobile mobile

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Alabama is called Hoffman furniture store. Um My nephew is the fourth generation now running at my grandfather, my uncle, my cousin and now my my second cousin not nephew. Um He's now running Hoffman furniture come in. The building is still there. Um I don't know why

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it's not falling down. I was there recently and oh my god, but it's still going just incredible. So did you have conversations with your father with your parents at some point as you when you were a teenager about taking over the store from your dad or

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was that never anything that you discussed? Um That was that was never an issue. It was just a small corner kind of grocery store. It was never, I mean it was I don't know how to tell your size but you know it was a small grocery

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store, you know carried the basics, remember what a grocery store was back then compared to today, you know it's a lot fewer products. Um So no I was never gonna do that. He also owned some real estate um some rental property that was never anything that

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appealed to me or my brother who, he's a lawyer. My sister didn't work, she was a volunteer, also her husband was an accountant. So going into business, so to speak with my father. It just, that was not something first of all personally that I would ever

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been interested and there was really nothing there, it was just a little, you know, it's supported my mom and my dad and the family because I mean my dad was very handy, so if something broke, he knew how to fix it. I don't know how to

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fix anything. So that was not the business for me. Let's talk now about your jewish upbringing and tell us a little bit about how you begin to gravitate toward reform, Judaism and from there to an interest in a career in the revenue. Uh well I went

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to Tulane which had still does have a very sizable in the sense of a clearly identifiable jewish community. There were four jewish fraternities to jewish sororities at Newcomb. So I was, you know, uh as a kid, I was active in young Judaea belonged to a CIA,

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I was not particularly active but so I grew up like every other jewish kid in Memphis, you know, as I think I mentioned to you once in a previous conversation when I was growing up, the reform in the Orthodox really didn't talk much to each other.

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Uh they were really two very separate communities, no animosity or anything like that, just two different worlds that the kids who grew up at the temple didn't belong to a C. A. That was for the Orthodox. And what became then subsequently there was a small conservative

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congregation but they belonged to I think it was pi top I some you know the girls belong to a sorority and the boys belonged to a fraternity and so they didn't get involved. I only had one friend who grew up at the temple that was in

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my A Z A chapter. So that was that was how I grew up. Um I remember when I was um maybe maybe a young teenager maybe before that, I don't remember we went to mobile for Russia china or Yom Kipper because my uncle, my mom's brother

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was the president of the temple. And I remember sitting there saying is this jewish, seriously, I mean you know I grew up in an Orthodox congregation, I think what is going on here, all the english hymns. Right. Exactly, you know and you know, no Yamaka, I'm

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thinking what the hell is going on here? Um so I got to Tulane and um of course my experience there became very different in terms of friends and and uh people that the jewish community is made up of people from reform and Conservative and Orthodox and

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nothing and everything. So um and I was I wasn't real active in Hillel, but I was a participant, so to speak. Um When I was uh I think a sophomore, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, when I was a sophomore um Elizabeth jane caldwell from Tallulah Louisiana

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came to me and asked me because she knew that I did a lot of Israeli dancing and taught a lot of Israeli dancing if I would do a weekend workshop because Softie Southern Federation of Temple Youth um wanted to have an Israeli dance workshop. Um One

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of the things that had happened in Reform Judaism, which is part of the story of this temple and lots of uh the history of reform Judaism is that Israel began to be a part of, you know, not just the religion but the culture of reform Judaism.

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Um um hank Skirball who became the director of Nifty, went out of his way to get Israel back into reform Judaism. So they had done some Israeli dancing at one of their national conventions and she knew that I had done that, asking me if I would

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do a dance workshop weekend. So I said sure made 50 bucks, that was a lot of money. So I spent the weekend doing that. It turns out that that summer a man named r j cooper who had been the Israeli dance instructor at young Judaea for

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many years when I where I went and learned and became you know pretty proficient at it um was had shifted over and was working for nifty but was unable to uh do it that summer for some other reason and um the people that softly heard about

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it and said, why don't you call Roy walter? Because I know he knows how to do this. So they called me and I went to work for nifty at their national institute the summer and then the following summer as well, the two summers of between my

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sophomore junior and junior and senior years at what is the camp outside of Atlanta. I've forgotten exactly where it is, but it was the first two years, I think it's not golden camp, I've forgotten which one it is anyhow. So I spent two summers working for

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nifty at their National institute as their dance person. And I have to say that's where I became introduced to reform Judaism as not just, you know, what are they doing up there on the pulpit? Is that jewish? But you know, it's staffed by rabbis. Um I

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got to talk to them and hear them and learn what they were doing and what reformed Judaism really stood for and began to realize if I looked at my own life and how I lived Judaism. Um and my thoughts about how Judaism impacts my life in

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the world. I began to see that this is, this is something that I really can identify with. Um um and when I went back to two lane in between um became friends with a couple of the Reform Rabbis, the Hilo Director at the time. It uh

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two lane was also a Reform rabbi. And so I developed a relationship with him when I was thinking about what I wanted to do after college. My original decision was I wanted to get a PhD and teach english because I was an english major um and

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um went to the professor and talked about it and got information, you know, where, what different departments are, like where they are, what they specialize in what I'd be interested in. Um and said, okay, well let me think about where would I want to go and

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what area would I want to specialize in? Um and so I went home for winter break and come january, you know, go back, we have to take exams and everything and january passes and february passes and I'm like, well if you don't put in applications, you're

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not going to school, you know, and it suddenly hit me that that's really, I don't think that's what I want to do. And I had, I think a pretty serious what's the word I want, you know, put everything on the table and see what it is

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you want to do with the rest of your life. I know I didn't want to go back to Memphis and work for my dad or with my dad that was just of no interest to me whatsoever. Um so it took me a couple of weeks to

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go through this. I remember meeting with the Hill Director and he helped me. I mean the word rabbi had never occurred to me at that point, but he helped me figure out how to sit down and maybe figure out, you know, who am I what what

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has meaning to me, what am I good at? What am I not good? What I like to do? What am I not like to do? What are my strengths? What are my challenges and weaknesses? And when it came out, Rabbi, uh I think I was more

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surprised than anybody but when I called home and told my parents it was like, well yeah, I mean that's not what they but it was just it's you, it fits, they knew me better than I knew myself. So that's how I came to the reform movement

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and that's how I came to be a rabbi. Thanks to Israeli dancing, Israeli dancing launched a lot of careers and probably a few marriages, I'm sure it did actually when I look back at it, I didn't know it at the time, but several of the people,

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several of the people who were the counselors in young Judaea um two or three of them became reformed rabbis as well wow that's great. So tell me now about about you know mentors and role models. So either you spoke about this a little bit just now.

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So your time at H. U. C. And and beyond who most shaped your approach to the Rabbit. Who did you model yourself after, who really inspired you in the early phases of your career? Um I don't know that. I really have an answer to that before

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I got to the temple before I got to emanuel. Um The truth is that the professors at the Hebrew Union College have virtually no pulpit experience. That's not who they are. There was one rabbi who had had a number of years at a congregation and then

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came to Hebrew Union College and he taught education and what they call the practical rabbinate. Uh But the truth is he was out of touch with with what What the rabbit that had become. He hadn't he hadn't been in the pulpit 20 years by the time

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I got there. Okay, so he's he's 20 years outside the pulpit. Um I don't know that I have an answer to the question. There was no one who specifically, or I can't think of any people who who who modeled my rabbinate in school. Um I do

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know that there were things that I learned at the college that specifically impacted me in terms of what I wanted for my Rabbit. Um Unlike a lot of people, um you know, everybody, students like to complain, you know, they should do this, they should, I had

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a fairly positive experience. The truth is the person who probably influenced me the most was not a rabbi. He's a man named Dr. Edward six He's still alive. He's in his 90s. That was in his 90th birthday party. I became very very close to his family.

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We are we are like family. And Eddie and his wife were both carol and we're both presidents of Wise Temple. And I think I learned more from him about the rabbinate than I did from a rabbi. Because I somehow got the feeling sometimes at H. U.

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C. And this is not a consistent message. But sometimes you got the feeling that's like it's the rabbis against the laypeople and that was so different from what I learned from Eddie. Eddie taught me that lay people want their rabbi to succeed. Now this is not

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every layperson and everything you know. But he taught me to respect lay people and their opinion and their values and their commitment to the job that I was doing as the rabbi. And so I think one of the things that I learned the most at Hebrew

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Union when I was in Cincinnati was not from Hebrew Union College but was from Eddie about how how to work with and respectfully people and don't assume that they don't want the best for you and that they don't want you to succeed and that you're not

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on the same team together. So I would say that's probably the most influential piece of my rabbinate from the days of Hebrew Union College. Um I will say that I had, as I think I mentioned you once, I had met Rabbi Cahn in 1963 when I

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worked for, after having worked for nifty, I came down and worked for toffee and he was the scholar in residence at a nifty summer toffee thing and I had met him then and then again in 1968. Um I had written jazz cantata and I came and

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I performed it on this pulpit with the youth group for, for college homecoming here at immanuel. So I had met Rabbi Cahn, I knew his reputation. Um I had heard um the speech that he gave to the graduating class the year before I got there, I

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came in 1964, I think he gave it in 1963, so I didn't get to hear it live, but I did hear the recording of it. Um and I remember being inspired even then, so much so that I asked the professor for a recording of it, which

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I played as I think I told you, I played that at his funeral. So even before I came here, I was impressed by Rabbi Cahn and I was, I was impressed enough that when he called and said, would you like the job, it took me 30

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seconds didn't take me 30 seconds to say yes. Um I think one of the major reasons he, he wanted me to come was first of all he knew me, second of all, he had seen me work and the major portion of my job when I came

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was youth. I mean that was probably 80% of my job between the religious school and the youth group and things like that. So um I came here already, not impressed so much with his national reputation, which it was, but my personal association with him and he

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continued to be a role model in in so many ways for me. Um but Rabbi cahn mentored in in a different way. I can only remember one or two occasions when he sat down and said Roy let's talk about this or that he mentored just by

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watching him work. Um I can't remember more than two or three occasions when he came to me and said, I want you to rethink how you're doing this or I'm not sure you're doing this right. Um He gave me, he let me fly, he gave me

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wings. He never held me back. I remember when I went to him in 1970 right after Russia Sean and Yom Kipper was not happy with the Children's service that we did. It was one that the reform was used at the time and it was, it was

00:26:24.020 - 00:26:40.970

just a watered down version of adult service and I said, you know, how would you feel if I developed and let me go back one step of all the professors, There were two professors at h you see that I had the best relationship. One was dr

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beholder who I did my thesis with, who was just this amazing man. Uh but Jacob Petkovski, who was a litter just uh and I love liturgy because his words and poetry and you know, so anyhow, so I became very interested in creative liturgy. So I said

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to Rabbi Cahn, how would you feel if I got to, you know, developed some creative liturgy something for kids on Russia's Kipper. Um and um he thought that was an interesting idea, let's try it. So I said, put me together with three or 4 of the

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most creative people in the congregation. So he did Larry Sagna Wittes and his wife Barbara Barbara live, it's Millie cowan and I the five of us and we spent the year laughing and playing and writing and creating and I remember going to Rabbi Cahn and putting

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the sample copy of what we proposed from time to time we say, how are y'all doing? Never pushed, never wanted to see it. I put it in front of him. It was so different from anything he had ever thought would come out of this. It was

00:27:51.510 - 00:28:09.450

called, it's better to be better. It's nothing like in back, I mean today it's nothing but back then it was something okay. And I remember him looking at me and saying, do you believe in this? And I said, absolutely. He said then let's do it what

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better he didn't get it. I have to tell you he did not get it. I could see from his face but he had asked me to do something. He wanted to be sure that I thought this was the right way to go and I did and

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The proof is that we've been using it for 50, 50 years you know. So it wasn't a failure anyhow. And I mean people loved it, it became exciting for them you know. So one of the things that I learned, I think the most from him is

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if you if you when you bring in younger rabbis don't micromanage them. He never micromanaged me ever uh I know he didn't always like everything I said or everything I did but unless he felt that was something that was really, he needed to call to my

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attention. He never said a word. He let me do my thing and I I learned from watching him do and not do. So that's how he mentored. At the end of my first year he sat me down. We were we were actually, it was at the

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confirmation dinner that he and Roselle had for the confirmation class at their home in the backyard and we were just sitting there. He said well remember leaned back in his chair, crossed his legs said well what do you think of our first year? I mean that

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was how we evaluated the years, What do you think of it? And I told him what I thought. I said, you know Great, great stuff. Yeah, it is. I don't know if it's great or not, it's just what happened. Yeah. So you came here in 1970

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and there's there's a apocryphal story about a motorcycle. Yeah, here's what happened. Um I came in 1970 and when I was at Tulane, I had borrowed a friend's motor scooter on Sunday mornings. Most of my friends were, you know, New Orleans, you could drink at 18

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and I was never much of a drinker. Uh and a lot of my friends were hungover on Sunday mornings, which I wasn't because I didn't drink much. So I borrowed his motor scooter instead of having, I didn't have a car instead of having to take the

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bus. I taught religious school. So somehow word got back to Houston that I knew how to ride a motorcycle or that I had one. And then I also came wearing dress boots which were very stylish in the, in the Cincinnati is not north, but north of

00:30:42.630 - 00:31:00.180

here. Well in Houston there's only two kinds of boots, cowboy boots and motorcycle boots and they knew they weren't cowboy boots, that they thought they were motorcycle boots or something anyhow. So the rumor was that. So two of the uh guys who owned motorcycles, The Schwartz

00:31:00.180 - 00:31:14.420

boys came by one day and said they heard that the rabbi needs, you know how to ride a motorcycle. Yeah, prove it. So I got on the motorcycle and I wrote it around the temple at the time, there was no garage, you could walk. Right, okay,

00:31:14.420 - 00:31:28.250

so I wrote it around the temple, I'll never forget. One of them came following behind me just in case to be sure I didn't break my neck. Okay, so that's the apocrypha. The other part of the topography is I can tell you 1000 people who said

00:31:28.250 - 00:31:42.780

they seen me ride a motorcycle. So that's how many people must have passed the temple that day because that's the only time I've ever been on one since when my son Aaron called home as a freshman in college, he called home and to Lenny said mom,

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I need an urban myth for my college. I don't know an urban myth. So she told him that urban myth, that's what he did for his college paper. My gosh, where did the moniker Reb Roy come from? Where did I don't even know, I just, I

00:32:00.520 - 00:32:15.850

think because of rob Roy, you know the Scottish, I think hero um somewhere along the line it just became Reb Roy and I can't, I can't tell you when or how or who started it. No idea. It's just one of those things, it's one of those,

00:32:15.860 - 00:32:32.690

I mean it was, it was before I know it was before I became a rabbi. They used to call me that somehow somebody came up with it and it just stuck. It's great. There are people today who still call me rob Roy. Oh yeah of course.

00:32:33.440 - 00:32:51.710

And it's your email address of course. Tell me more about some of the first way it's reb Roy one because somebody else's rob Roy, there's another rebel Roy out there now. His probably stands for rebel. Yeah, I would think. Yeah, I'm sorry go ahead. Tell me

00:32:51.710 - 00:33:14.390

a little bit about you know those early years working with um some of the lay leaders like Myra Lipper and Shirley bearish. Well because when I came the youth was my, you know, it was my responsibility. Um the way the youth group had been organized back

00:33:14.400 - 00:33:35.490

organized back then is that the sisterhood um sort of provided the lay leader, the lay Volunteers to be the deputy advisers. There were two or three of them, but Shirley Barrett really became as everyone knows the mainstay, not only for the congregation but one of the

00:33:35.490 - 00:33:52.940

ones for the region as well. And every day after school because she lived in Meyer Land and a lot of kids went to bel air youth group central was not the temple, it was Shirley's house because kids could walk there, you know and they all lived

00:33:52.940 - 00:34:05.420

in the neighborhood so many in the afternoon. I was not here. I was out there now Tuesdays and Thursdays of course I had to be here because of bar mitzvah. But you know, and I didn't work on, on, on Mondays, but if like there was no

00:34:05.420 - 00:34:22.750

bar mitzvah, I didn't have a kid, I spent a lot of afternoons with the Bearish is um at their home became as I am today, very close to the family, just as you know, as personal friends in addition to the work we did together. Um and

00:34:22.750 - 00:34:45.640

Shirley was this really bright cree, extremely creative committed person and and we really worked very well together because we had similar similar goals and similar aspirations for the kids, you know. Uh and I'm because I was assigned to the youth when the summer came and or

00:34:45.640 - 00:34:58.200

the kids went to camp or the kids went to convention. Um, it was understood that I would be going, I would, you know, I didn't need permission, that that was, that was as much a part of my job as being here. And so I was always

00:34:58.200 - 00:35:10.760

staffing every Toft event. I don't think there was a toffee event I missed for years as one of the staff people and became the regional rabbi, so to speak. I think it's sort of a particular kind of thing. It doesn't have a lot of meaning other

00:35:10.760 - 00:35:28.570

than the fact that I was there and helped make the decisions and helped plan the conventions and all that kind of thing was always there and if they needed a rabbi for something, I was, I was the one who was there. Um The way in which

00:35:28.570 - 00:35:52.630

temple operated back then apart from the youth group was that the sisterhood. If Rabbi Cahn needed something done, he just turned to the sisterhood and that was it. It got done and Meira and her sister Dafna and her sister charlotte and tons of other people, all

00:35:52.630 - 00:36:11.380

those pictures on the wall of those sisterhood presidents and many who weren't president, they really were the backbone of the volunteer work that was done at the temple. There were on the board level of course it was mostly men. Um and some of the committees, you

00:36:11.380 - 00:36:28.080

know like the cemetery committee or the finance committee or whatever it was, but really the the hands on work was done by the women of the sisterhood. And it was it was just assumed that if you needed some, if you needed volunteers for something, you picked

00:36:28.080 - 00:36:50.630

up the phone, you called the sisterhood and it got done. Um and so I threw that came to respect and appreciate what the power of sisterhood was and in my opinion still is in this congregation. Um and so I worked, I worked very closely with all

00:36:50.630 - 00:37:10.990

of them. Um I'll never forget one day I'm sitting in my office um what the woman who a past president sisterhood, her kids had left and everything. She decided she wanted to go back to work. She became my secretary. So one day I'm on the phone

00:37:11.000 - 00:37:24.300

and she walks in with another woman who's active in the sisterhood and they picked up this sport coat that I had sitting thrown over the chair and starts going through the pockets and I'm on the phone and I'm like this. And she goes like this and

00:37:24.300 - 00:37:39.450

said like this, you're just wiping me away. Next thing I know my jacket is gone. They didn't like that jacket. So that was it. They were being my mother. They didn't like that. That was, that was the end of that jacket. I thought it was a

00:37:39.450 - 00:38:06.070

nice jacket. They didn't like it. Yeah, anyhow, I think, I think it would be fair to say that one of the key traits for lack of a better word, uh huh of the culture of this temple is this warm Hamish family community kind of place. And

00:38:06.070 - 00:38:26.000

I think the sisterhood is one of the main reasons for that because you know, they ran the kitchen, they did receptions, they, people were here, the women were here. Okay. And so when you walked in there was activity, people were here. And, and it was sort

00:38:26.000 - 00:38:44.560

of, you know, nobody stood on ceremony and you know, it just, it just was that the ambiance of the place. And so again from lay people, not so much from Rabbi cahn, although he certainly set the tone, you know, you learn about what makes, what makes

00:38:44.560 - 00:38:59.090

the place tick from, not just the professional the rabbi level, but what makes it tick on the lay level. And I learned that those people love this place as much as Rabbi Kahn and I did and I have come to and that's the heart of a

00:38:59.090 - 00:39:22.980

place is, you know, the people, not the rabbi, let's talk now about one of those really, I think incredible accomplishments and signature events in the history of Emanuel and that's Israel expo 73 what do you remember about how the idea for Israel expo 73 came about,

00:39:25.580 - 00:39:42.830

I believe it was a congregation in New Jersey had done something like an Israel expo, I don't I don't know what it's called and Rabbi Cahn, I guess doing traveling nationally and working either read about it or heard about it And thought it would be a

00:39:42.830 - 00:40:04.220

wonderful way to celebrate Israel's 25th anniversary. And so he brought the idea to the board and I don't think the Rabbi cahn ever got turned down for good reason, I remember once he did, but we'll talk about that another time. Um anyhow. So the board said,

00:40:04.220 - 00:40:30.010

yeah, and um so they set about creating a structure. Um Ed Hecht became the chairman and divided up into areas and they were chairman and committees and subcommittees and workers. Um by the time Israel expo came to be between the people who had volunteered to help

00:40:30.020 - 00:40:51.640

establish set it up and the people who volunteered to make it happen. We had 1400 families at the time, I'll bet you there's probably not 200 families that just somehow didn't touch it. It was the most exciting volunteer thing. Uh one of the most exciting volunteer

00:40:51.640 - 00:41:13.760

things ever. Um everybody became a part of it in some way or another. Um we we decided to turn felled hall into like a the streets of Jerusalem with markets and build a sort of a replica of the, of the wailing wall and went, turned to

00:41:13.760 - 00:41:28.320

the University of Houston art department and they came and helped us devise it. And literally, have you, have you ever seen the album? There's a pic photo album I've seen. Yes, there's a short, like 12 minute film. It's right, I mean, unbelievable people. People thought we

00:41:28.320 - 00:41:48.000

had brought the wailing wall, It was unbelievable. Um we sold out the entire United States supply of Sabra, the liqueur, the Israeli liqueur. Um we brought in, there was a performance on this pulpit every night of either an Israeli artist or I put together, we brought

00:41:48.000 - 00:42:07.760

in a group of professional dancers and I, we did Israeli dance. Um Barbara Loeser put together a group, there was always music Infeld Hall and live music uh going on um We brought in products from Israel and sold all kinds of stuff. We estimate that some

00:42:07.760 - 00:42:24.850

40,000 people came through this place in a week. Um One of the funny things, I think I mentioned this to one of the funny things about it is at the time nobody ever heard of hummus or Tahini a or falafel. Okay, so our Israeli, we serve

00:42:24.850 - 00:42:41.060

food and our Israeli restaurant was delicatessen, you know, but that's what people thought of as jewish, you know, so that's what we you know and that's what we did, right? So like we had like where the sovereign was. So we had Israeli food products. So there's

00:42:41.060 - 00:42:56.560

a man who's in the temple who was a grocer, he set that up, you know, we had somebody who was who owned a jewelry shop, he set up the jewelry shop. I mean you just can't believe how amazing it was to walk in this place. Dewey

00:42:56.560 - 00:43:13.530

Compton who was on KTRH radio is the agricultural guy sent him to Israel and he learned all about Israeli agriculture and came back every morning on this pulpit gave a lecture and there were hundreds of people here every morning listening to Dewey compton talked about the

00:43:13.530 - 00:43:30.860

Bedouins, the Bedouins talking about the bad ones and talking about Israeli agriculture and how they grow, grow food in the sand and all the things, you know, all the amazing technological things that Israelis were doing even at the time, it was one of the most exciting

00:43:30.860 - 00:43:44.530

things I think I've ever been a part of it. It's just an amazing event and I mean it speaks a lot to you know, as you know the history of the founding of the manual of course with this connection to Israel connection to Israel and and

00:43:44.530 - 00:44:02.640

you know, Rabbi cons commitments, but just in the testament to the congregation and the volunteer spirit, you couldn't pull that off today. I don't know what you couldn't. We subsequently did a couple of things when Israel, when America did the had our birthday, we had the

00:44:02.640 - 00:44:15.370

bicentennial, we did a jewish thing and we did the same kind of thing. It was successful but not nearly to that degree neither in terms of the number of volunteers nor in terms of the number of people who came through. But we did a show and

00:44:15.370 - 00:44:32.760

we did all you know, jewish history and all kinds of stuff. Remember steve Whitfield, whom you know as a colleague came in. So I mean it just it didn't have the excitement of that just didn't. Yeah, let's talk now, let me just add one more thing.

00:44:33.080 - 00:44:57.190

I think in a way it's maybe a bit of a diversion. But I think it's important to say that event in many ways sort of encapsulates or that there's a better word than that sort of stands out as a prime example of who the founders of

00:44:57.190 - 00:45:17.470

this temple were and how they what their vision for this temple was. Um if you read the documents of the temple, um remember that Rabbi CAhn was overseas when the temple was founded, he was a chaplain in the U. S. Army in the south pacific. So

00:45:17.480 - 00:45:32.760

all the documents, the founding documents were written by the late people Now I'm sure they were consulted with Rabbi CAhn, don't get me wrong, but they were all written by lay people. They it was their vision of what this Temple Cannon should be. And I had

00:45:32.760 - 00:45:48.860

the, I would say privilege of knowing most of them because they were all they were young when they started the congregation, they were in their, you know, fifties and sixties and even seventies depending when by the time I got here I missed the 25th anniversary celebration

00:45:48.860 - 00:46:11.990

by one year. I came in the 26 year. And so their their sense that that not just freedom of the pulpit and the pew which was which are the words but they called it an adventure of the spirit. And I just I think that it's that

00:46:11.990 - 00:46:25.150

event sort of epitomizes first of all because the subject was Israel, which as you say, was very much an important part of the founding of the temple. It was about, it was about the lay people as much as the more than the rabbi in that sense.

00:46:25.150 - 00:46:37.880

He came with the idea, but then he was off running the temple and this thing really sort of took on a life of its own and and and that that the temple is as much about its laypeople as his rabbi, you depend on the rabbi for

00:46:37.880 - 00:46:53.890

some things, but but the lay people have to make it happen and so that that that sense of their their founding of this temple, they created it and they molded it and they are the ones who made it happen uh even before Rabbi cahn got back

00:46:53.890 - 00:47:10.570

here and that spirit was set, so when he got back, you know, and he knew all those people because he had been there Rabbi at Beth Israel, it just, it just took off and I think the the expo sort of epitomizes that sense of the combination

00:47:10.570 - 00:47:30.280

of you know, the the rabbi's ideas and the lay people make it happen. Yeah, that's great. Um why don't we um talk a little bit about um your family before we transition to talking about your becoming senior rabbi. Tell us a little bit about um meeting

00:47:30.280 - 00:47:51.430

linda and starting a family here. Um my senior year of rabbinical school uh I did not, I had taken two years as with their your student pulpit in bloomington Illinois and my senior year I decided I didn't want to do a pulpit again, I had done

00:47:51.430 - 00:48:16.780

it twice. And so I became the director of Hebrew studies at Isaac M Wise Temple um and the secretary to the rabbi at the time uh um was a wonderful woman who I became friends with and she mentioned to me that she had a cousin who

00:48:16.780 - 00:48:45.010

had graduated from college and was back in Cincinnati teaching and she thought we might make a nice couple to, which I said, I don't let middle aged jewish women set me up. She almost hit me, she almost hit me anyhow. So I said, this was in

00:48:45.010 - 00:49:05.040

like february and she said, I'm not gonna fix you up, she said, but she's gonna be at the lecture next week that Elie Wiesel is speaking at um her name is linda Cohn and told me so sure enough, coincidentally, I'm sitting two rows from her and

00:49:05.050 - 00:49:25.160

from her description of her, I looked at her and I knew who she was. So I decided to ask her out and I did, we dated my senior year. Um when I graduated, when I became ordained, I said to her, um, you're not gonna be happy.

00:49:25.870 - 00:49:44.980

I said, but I'm going to Houston and I'm not, I'm not ready to ask you to come there, I'm just not there in the relationship yet. She wasn't happy, but she understood. So I came here and I spent my year, we sort of stayed in touch,

00:49:44.990 - 00:49:58.760

but not a lot, but we came here and I spent the year doing what I needed to do, which is, you know, first year of the rabbit and with all the challenges and you know, being single, I had no restrictions, I could, I could literally dive

00:49:58.760 - 00:50:17.750

in, which I'm glad that I did in retrospect, I think it was valuable time. And that summer I went back to Cincinnati and I told her I was coming and I said I'm ready now to get back together and see if we can work, she reluctantly

00:50:17.750 - 00:50:34.030

said yes, so I said, why don't you come down to Houston in august that was there in july. So she came down, we were together for a couple of weeks and she moved back and I said why don't you move to Houston? She did, I couldn't

00:50:34.030 - 00:50:47.200

move to see her and I said, I have to be honest, I'm not moving you down here with commitments, I'm not ready to do that, that's not fair to you or me to for you to come down thinking I'm promising something, I'm not promising, but she

00:50:47.210 - 00:51:10.700

took the chance. She came down and uh hanukkah, her gift was her engagement ring, so we became engaged um and were married six months later in Cincinnati, linda is an identical twin, was an identical twin, it's hard for me to speak in the past tense um

00:51:11.470 - 00:51:27.160

um she had met the man that she is married to and we got married in a double wedding, no kidding, yep, her mother was had been widowed and didn't have a lot of money and she said, look, I can only afford one wedding, okay, so linda

00:51:27.160 - 00:51:52.200

was raised in a conservative synagogue and there's a principle, you don't mix simple, so Marlene had to get married before sundown and we got married after sundown, so we were technically married, jewish lee on two different days the next day. Right? So Herbie and Marlene got

00:51:52.200 - 00:52:04.160

married, it was on a sunday. Herbie and Marlene got married at six o'clock and we got married at seven o'clock or whatever the timing was and that's how we that's how we did it right, we didn't remember, we didn't have daylight savings time so much back

00:52:04.160 - 00:52:20.940

then. So sundown instead of being nine o'clock was eight o'clock or whatever. So they got married before eight o'clock and we got married after o'clock. Eight o'clock. What a story. Right, What a story. That's great, that's great. So linda moved to Houston, you know roughly six

00:52:20.940 - 00:52:50.230

months or so nine months before we got married. She came in the fall, we got married in july um We um in let's see, yeah, in June or July of Linda got pregnant sometime about six or 8 months later and we decided that before we had

00:52:50.230 - 00:53:06.240

kids we wanted to take one big trip together. So We flew to London and rented a car and drove for three weeks through England Wales and Scotland and she threw up in every bathroom along the way, you know she was in her first trimester anyhow, you

00:53:06.240 - 00:53:25.550

know she would get up throw up. Marvin was really, anyhow. Um and then we came in in in the spring of 70 spring of 72. Benjamin was born uh spring of 74. Michelle was born and then five years later I was born in 81 And I

00:53:25.550 - 00:53:42.010

have three of the most fabulous kids a person could ever ask for. I'm a 1981 baby. Are you? Yeah, you and Benji, you and Aaron. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Speaking of Scotland, did you know there's a Scottish Jewish archives in Glasgow? I did not, but

00:53:42.010 - 00:53:58.830

it doesn't surprise me because I know people who who were, who did not go to London, but wound up in Scotland and and I can't remember who it is now, but I know a few people who came to America from Scotland. Yeah, jewish. Yeah, great. Yeah.

00:53:58.840 - 00:54:24.260

What a world. All right, so tell us now about the discussions and the process that led to your becoming senior Rabbi upon Rabbi cons retirement. Um I suspect that the way in which I threw myself into helping to make expo happened because Rabbi Cahn sort of

00:54:24.260 - 00:54:38.590

said, look, he was active in the CCR at the time, he was running the temple, He said, I want you to sort of be the staff person and and I think people got to see me in a different light in that I wasn't just the assistant

00:54:38.590 - 00:54:52.440

rabbi working with the kids, they saw me organizing and they saw me, you know, in a more executive is not the right word, but you know what I mean, more administrative organized, knows how to get things done kind of way and I don't think that's an

00:54:52.440 - 00:55:12.880

irrelevant factor in this story, I could be wrong. It's just my thought. So in 1974 after being here for four years, um I was promoted from assistant to associate rabbi. It's sort of a titular kind of thing. But most people, you know, two or three years

00:55:12.880 - 00:55:39.250

later, it it was sort of the standard kind of thing. Okay. Um I cannot tell you the year. I think it was 1976. Um the President of the temple said to me, have you ever considered becoming the senior rabbi of emanuel? Would you consider it? And

00:55:39.250 - 00:55:52.360

I said to him to be honest with you, it's not something that ever even occurred to me. Rabbi Kahn had come to me the year or two a year before and said to me that because he was getting active in the CC our was going to

00:55:52.360 - 00:56:10.280

be the president would be traveling a lot. He asked me to make a decision. He needed me either to leave the following summer so he could hire a new assistant and he would have a year with that assistant to train him, so to speak, get him

00:56:10.280 - 00:56:28.700

used to the temple so that when he was gone being the president, he would have somebody not brand new here or commit to staying through his presidency. And I was happy I was productive. I liked the people I liked. So I said I would stay um

00:56:28.710 - 00:56:46.350

again, not thinking anything other than I agreed to stay. So that Rabbi Cahn could do his his uh C C A. R. Thing. So when they came and asked me if I would consider it, I said sure, you know, so he said let's talk about it.

00:56:46.360 - 00:57:03.050

So one evening he called me and said I'd like you to meet with a group of us. We met in the south lobby, which is the front lobby of the temple. Um They were about Maybe six or 8 people in the room, I think it was,

00:57:03.060 - 00:57:22.460

I think it was eight including me and the president. Um and um let's talk about what it would be like, would you consider it, what we expect, what you expect, that kind of thing. Truth was I had never even thought about it. So I said, but

00:57:22.470 - 00:57:42.760

you know, I'm willing to sit and talk and we did. And um obviously the decision was both on on both our parts. Eventually that I would become the senior rabbi, but there are two parts of the story that are particularly meaningful or worth noting. One is

00:57:43.480 - 00:58:07.370

an encounter I think I shared with you an encounter in that meeting, Hortense came in who was a character. I loved her, She had grown up in a what she considered to be a restrictive punitive Orthodox home. I don't know if it was or not, but

00:58:07.370 - 00:58:28.620

that was her experience of it. And so she she didn't just come to reform Judaism. She fled Orthodox Judaism. So anything that resembled tradition was really offensive to her again, not because other people didn't, but what what it felt like to her because of her background.

00:58:28.630 - 00:58:45.440

Okay, and remember at the time that reformed Judaism really was not warm toward tradition in any way shape or form, Rabbi Kahn did not wear a Yamaka, he didn't wear a tallit, he wore, he took the talent he had worn as a chaplain and converted into

00:58:45.440 - 00:59:00.380

what he called a stole um there was, you know, maybe a few words of hebrew here and there in the service. Reform Judaism was in a very different place than it is now. So in her, I've forgotten where she grew up, some small town in Texas,

00:59:00.380 - 00:59:16.830

like not warden, it's out of 10, I've forgotten where it is anyhow. I remember her saying to me now Roy, this is my temple and in my temple we don't wear no yama keys and we don't know where, we don't wear no Talese's in my temple.

00:59:16.830 - 00:59:29.590

So if you're gonna be my rabbi, you ain't gonna be wearing no Talese's and you ain't gonna be wearing no Yamasaki's now I had made it clear in sermons, I had given that I thought reform Judaism had gone to, not that there was anything wrong had

00:59:29.590 - 00:59:51.940

gone too far in rejecting. Okay, so that's where that came from and I will never forget founding president of the temple Nathan klein sitting next to her to my left, he stood up and in his gruff voice looked down at her and said, Or tense, you

00:59:51.940 - 01:00:16.800

had your rabbi now give these young people theirs and he sat down and he never said another word the whole night, true story, almost word for word. I became the senior rabbi. I will add this in a deep appreciation to Rabbi cahn for this. Um he

01:00:16.810 - 01:00:37.770

had a contract to have optional retirement at 65 mandatory at 68, Which was a contract he wanted. He he always said to me, if you stay one year too long, you can ruin a whole rabbit. So he picked 68, I would have become the senior rabbi

01:00:37.790 - 01:00:52.480

if you retired at 67 which is when he really wanted to retire, he didn't want to wait the extra year. I would have technically not qualified. You had to be out eight years to take over instead of seven and he stayed an extra year so that

01:00:52.480 - 01:01:06.770

I could qualify now. They probably would have let me do it anyhow. But Rabbi cahn like things by the book, he followed the rules which I respect and he was willing to stay the extra year so that I could become a senior rabbi without having to

01:01:08.440 - 01:01:36.790

Mush the rules in any way, shape or form. And so in 19 78 um he retired and I became um I became a senior rabbi. Great. So in a minute, I want to talk about how you left your own particular mark on Emmanuel in all your

01:01:36.790 - 01:01:55.910

decades of leadership. But before we get there, I have an interesting question that we've discussed before and that is that as you know, as the jewish community moved out of the riverside and third ward area in the fifties and sixties, every other major jewish congregation in

01:01:55.910 - 01:02:15.540

the city moved to the Meyer Land area, Beth Israel moved, Bethea Suren moved. That would become us move the JCC moved. You had breakaway congregations with shalom set up shop in Bel Air, H. C. R. J. Moved out to memorial. Were there discussions, serious discussions at

01:02:15.540 - 01:02:43.790

Emanuel about also moving and if so why didn't they decide to move? I came in 1970 In 9th. I can't remember whether it was in late 70's or early 71 or 70, I think it was 71. Um, a discussion specifically about whether Emanuel should move out

01:02:43.790 - 01:03:01.570

into what was then considered the jewish area, Meyer Land etcetera whether we should move or not. Um I certainly had no nothing to contribute to that since I was brand new, but I was asked to be on the committee to just to be there as part

01:03:01.570 - 01:03:23.190

of the discussion? Um Ed Wolf chaired the committee. Um, I would say that A lot of the founders were involved in that discussion. I don't remember who was on that committee somewhere in this temple. I bet there's a record of it, I would hope. But it

01:03:23.190 - 01:03:38.160

was a large committee. It wasn't like a few people, there must have been 20 or 30 people at least. Um it was not the board um there were board members there, but it was not the board, it was a committee set up to just to have

01:03:38.160 - 01:04:12.980

a discussion about this. Um I don't remember, to be honest with you. More than one meeting, there may have been more, but I only remember one meeting and I remember the discussion being about, I don't, the discussion why the temple should move is obvious, that's where

01:04:12.980 - 01:04:32.150

the jewish community is going, you know, and we need to be where they are. But most of the discussion interestingly enough was about why we shouldn't move, why why should we stay where we are? Um And the the concept of the temple as being in the

01:04:32.150 - 01:04:52.390

heart of the city at the time, Rabbi cahn, there was something called the first church kind of thing. First christian first baptist and Rabbi cahn though he was not the first because there was no first jewish, you know. Um Rabbi CAhn participated with the the ministers

01:04:52.390 - 01:05:12.390

of of of the churches in this area. Um And the temple had always been a part of the what I don't quite know what to call it, but everything that had to do with with you know what we would today call social action or religious action.

01:05:12.400 - 01:05:35.610

Rabbi Kahn himself personally was committed this temple had done all kinds of things uh to participate um, uh, in, in the cultural life of the city and the social action part of the city remember that this was a southern city and you know, there was blacks

01:05:35.610 - 01:05:53.950

and whites were separate. You know, and we had been a part of things that made that to move the community forward and the sense that it was important that there be a continuing jewish presence in that effort. And that was happening in this part of town,

01:05:53.960 - 01:06:09.770

not out in the suburbs, not just Meyer Land anywhere. Okay. The core of that work was taking place here in this part of the city. And so the decision to remain had to do with a, there needs to be a jewish presence in the heart of

01:06:09.770 - 01:06:31.730

the city and we were the only one and that our role in the in the advancement of of of the city in terms of race relations and and all all this associate that was important. Um, I think I told you the story that shortly after I

01:06:31.730 - 01:06:49.510

became senior Rabbi, the National Conference of christians and jews still existed and I was asked to give the invocation and I put down the wrong hotel in my calendar. So I went to the hotel that I thought it was at and when we pulled in, I

01:06:49.510 - 01:07:05.940

said to linda, it's not here, there's look at all the parking spaces, There was no cell phone couldn't call anybody. So I called the Houston Chronicle and said, guys, I'm desperate, I need to find out where the National conference of christians jews dinner is. I'm at

01:07:05.940 - 01:07:20.670

this hotel and it's not here and they didn't know but they put me through to the city desk or what any, I wound up talking to someone and she said, I'll see what I can find out. But my suggestion is you try congregation emanuel because that's

01:07:20.670 - 01:07:35.860

where these kinds of things are usually held. So I said, lady do I have something to tell you and how she found it? Of course I made it. Uh, so that's the reputation of the temple from a woman who was working at the Houston Chronicle and

01:07:35.860 - 01:08:06.080

that's why that's why the temple remained where we did. So why don't we talk now about your senior rab in it and some of the big changes in reform Judaism from the late seventies into the 21st century that you know, you, you oversaw and participated in

01:08:06.090 - 01:08:42.440

starting with the worship service and and ritual with hortense in my head. Um it was very clear to me that if you went to a union biennial, just use that as the example clearly what was happening in reform Judaism was that we, some people say we

01:08:42.440 - 01:09:10.620

were coming becoming more conservative. That that's a misnomer, we were, we were bringing back into Judaism the things that make us jewish in terms of until late ke pa um um worship services, hebrew those kinds of things, chanting, none of which existed when I was here

01:09:10.620 - 01:09:31.640

in the temple. When I first came, we were pretty much what you would call a classical reform congregation. Now, less than some Rabbi Kahn was never against traditional things like that. He just didn't find it meaningful to him or to the temple. I told you that

01:09:31.650 - 01:09:48.110

Rabbi, the only time I remember Rabbi Cahn being turned down was when a family made the request to have their child where I can't remember it was the palace or both at his bar mitzvah and Rabbi Cahn said no, that's not the policy of the temple.

01:09:48.120 - 01:10:05.260

They appealed him and went to the ritual music committee which was no different than talking to Rabbi cahn. It was his committee and they appealed it to the board and the board not wanting to offend Rabbi Cahn, but on the other hand, also having a sense

01:10:05.260 - 01:10:22.200

of what was going on in the world, they decided that keep potent palette or not ritual, but custom and so he lost that battle. It's the only time I ever saw him lose a battle. But so even then and I was still the assistant or associate

01:10:22.200 - 01:10:37.590

at the time, you could see that the change had to come. So one of the things I decided was the only way to make this happen is to do it slowly if something, you know, it's like if you take a little bite here and a little

01:10:37.590 - 01:10:53.040

bite there and a little bite there, by the time, by the time you get to the end of it, nobody realizes that there's that much difference, everybody knows it's different but not that different. So I decided the best way to make the change was to go

01:10:53.040 - 01:11:15.450

very, very, very slowly for two reasons. First of all, the people who founded this congregation were themselves classical reform jews. The last thing I ever wanted to do excuse me was to offend any of them. They had put their trust in me to be the senior

01:11:15.450 - 01:11:33.420

rabbi to maintain their vision. Now part of their vision was and you can read it in the documents to be progressive to remain in the mainstream of reform Judaism, to be forward thinking and progressive. It's in the, it's in the documents, but that doesn't mean you

01:11:33.420 - 01:11:55.880

have to do it all at once. And so I decided to just go slowly. Um, we started by introducing a little more hebrew. We started by Rabbi cahn had before, the year before, I think either one or two years before uh I became the rabbi, we

01:11:55.880 - 01:12:18.650

hired a cantor. Okay, so we began to introduce more traditional styles of jewish music into the service. Um we um the kids had gone to nifty camp and talk to camp and there they were doing, you know, They were, they were doing more chanting and reading

01:12:18.650 - 01:12:34.910

more hebrew and doing more traditional services and all that. Uh and so they were coming back wanting some of these things and so very slowly over literally a period of 25 years from the time I started to the time I did the last thing um we

01:12:34.910 - 01:12:57.540

slowly introduced more hebrew into the services, uh chanting into the services, um uh wearing a tallit wearing kipapa, putting callosum out into the, into the lobbies or people who wanted to pick one up could mean you could even see, for example, on Yom kippur, you could

01:12:57.540 - 01:13:11.550

see before we ever put the talus um in before we ever put the key put out there. Okay, slowly but surely you could see more and more people coming with the taliban and you could see the direction of it. Okay. And so slowly but surely we

01:13:11.550 - 01:13:30.370

took our time and we did it and I think one of, I feel like one of my greatest accomplishments in the liturgical area in that part of the temple was when we finally decided to introduce chanting. Um that had to be done through, I did everything

01:13:30.370 - 01:13:44.220

through the original music committee. I didn't just ordain it, I didn't just say we're gonna do this, there's a process, I believe in the process, it's, it's their temple as much, you know more than it is, my temple, okay and that's what the committees are for

01:13:44.230 - 01:14:01.110

and I think one of my proudest accomplishments was one of the, one of the women who I would say was truly a classical reformed. You was raised as a classical reformed jew who was not in favor of all of this. I had managed over the years

01:14:01.110 - 01:14:21.910

to get her to see that this is where the temple needed to go, that it was not, it wasn't being done for her in that sense, it was being done for the temple. There was something bigger than her view of of of Judaism and she voted

01:14:21.910 - 01:14:39.870

in favor of chanting because she realized it was something that was the right thing to do for the future of the temple. That's you have to know what that it feels like a major accomplishment to me to have moved her. It didn't work, she didn't want

01:14:39.870 - 01:14:57.940

it, it didn't mean anything to her. It wasn't offensive to her, She just didn't care for it. But to get her to see that this is where the temple needs to go. Uh I once said to somebody, you know, um if a rabbi, if if you're

01:14:57.940 - 01:15:10.140

on the mountain over here and your congregation is over on this, on this mountain over here, you don't turn around and say, hey, what are you doing over there, you start where they are and you lead them to the other mountaintop. And so I feel like

01:15:10.140 - 01:15:26.810

that's sort of what I did in the area of liturgy to move the congregation towards a more traditional view of how you can still be reformed, still maintain all of the principles and ideals and values of reform, Judaism and yet still, you know, embrace the warmth

01:15:26.820 - 01:15:45.380

of the traditions and the rituals you mentioned, it's better to be better early on. And I wanted to give you a chance to talk about other creative liturgy that you had a part in over the years, I think in part because I was an english major,

01:15:45.390 - 01:16:08.720

you know, I love I love words, I love writing, I love liturgy, I love, I love how liturgy works. And so after we did, it's better to be better. But the year before I came in 1969, Rabbi Cahn started a process that became a service called

01:16:08.720 - 01:16:28.610

a confession for our time. Um at the time, the the cc our was working on a Gates of Prayer, it had not been published and it didn't get published for some years, but they had begun to do some work. And so some of that material as

01:16:28.610 - 01:16:47.280

well as some creative material, um they put together something called a confession for our time and in 1971 in 1970 rather, which was my first hunt, if we did a confession for our time um On the pulpit, which had been started in 69, I had nothing

01:16:47.280 - 01:17:09.200

to do with the creation of it, it was a wildly successful and um but like anything, any piece of creative liturgy um that you want to be timely, um it got stale would not be the right word, but so familiar that it becomes a little bit

01:17:09.200 - 01:17:26.700

wrote and a little bit, you know, too familiar. And so I decided that the only way to maintain it would be to be willing to to re edit it from time to time uh linda Miller who is a wonderful, wonderful writer uh and I sort of

01:17:26.700 - 01:17:48.160

became writing partners in this and so we were constantly tweaking, updating, reworking to keep it relevant and alive. Barbara Loeser always was On spot in terms of, you know, let's look for music that fits that keeps it contemporary, familiar, but also contemporary, you know, maybe a

01:17:48.160 - 01:18:07.010

new piece, but still the ones that people are familiar with and and like um um it's better to be better. It lived in its various iterations. Um it lived until um just a few years ago, I mean for, you know, 45, 50 years, whatever the number

01:18:07.010 - 01:18:24.920

would be. So along the way, we also created a Russia shawna Children's service uh called the new beginning, similar in style to uh it's better to be better with the same idea with the artwork and the pictures and you know, short sentences for kids to participate.

01:18:24.930 - 01:18:37.210

Um um I remember when we did a confession for our time, one of the things that I thought Rabbi cahn was gonna flip out over, but he went along with it was, I said, instead of doing it from the pulpit, I said I want to be

01:18:37.210 - 01:18:51.770

able to walk around and look at people and talk to people and point to their prayer books and things like that. Now we didn't have um wireless mics at the time and I'm walking around with 100 ft cord flipping the cord like crazy, you know, um,

01:18:51.780 - 01:19:04.800

from the front of the room, from the back of the room and everywhere, the same thing for a time to pray, but that sense of, you know, not from the pulpit, you know, but out there. I mean it was, it was electric, it really was. And

01:19:04.810 - 01:19:23.990

the committee that came up with this concept was just, it was just brilliant. I have to tell you. So we did the same thing for that. Then we decided to do something for us. You know, we had reached the point where we had to evening services

01:19:23.990 - 01:19:40.980

for Russia shawna and Yom kippur, but only one daytime service. Well, we were over filling the sanctuary, We didn't have room for everybody. Um, and so, um, we came up with the idea of a creative Russia shawna service, okay, sort of family oriented though, not for

01:19:40.980 - 01:19:59.720

kids, but something again more contemporary. Uh, this unlike a confession for our time, which is a self contained service, having nothing to do with liturgy whatsoever in, he doesn't follow the, it's just a piece, Okay, this because it was the service, it had to follow the

01:19:59.720 - 01:20:17.750

Rubert ship etcetera. You know, it's a, it's a rush to show in the morning service, but with contemporary readings and prayers. Um, and so I put that together, We held in the first one across the street at 1st Christian Church and I remember that Bob Loewy

01:20:17.750 - 01:20:36.620

was the assistant or associate rabbi at the time, I was over here, he conducted that service. Um, and so at one point in the, in the service, the um, while the third, the other assistant rabbi was conducted was doing the sermon in my white robe, I

01:20:36.620 - 01:20:51.630

go fly across the street with like hop holding the traffic because I went, I preached that service on Russia show in the morning and then flew back over here to continue this service and that time to pray was the name of it. And that service, I

01:20:51.630 - 01:21:13.400

don't, I don't remember, they're not using it right now because everything is uh, They switch to a different way of doing it. So again, that service lived for 20 years, you know, so I I think among the accomplishments that I'm proudest of is the liturgy that

01:21:13.410 - 01:21:28.760

I, and along with other late people didn't do it a time to pray, I did by myself, but the others were all done in consort with with other members of the temple. Um, and again, that's part of the ethos of this place in my opinion, you

01:21:28.760 - 01:21:43.800

know, the rabbis in charge of it, but it's it's the rabbi and the lay people together, that pulpit pew sense of we are one, not we are opposing each other, but we are just different parts of the same team and we come together to make things

01:21:43.800 - 01:22:08.780

happen very much a part of the history and the culture of the place. You alluded to this a little bit earlier, Rabbi, but tell me now about um interfaith relations in Houston and your role in the wider community. Shortly after, I think I came in July

01:22:08.780 - 01:22:34.070

sometime in the fall, I think in 1969, an organization called Houston Metropolitan ministries had been organized um it sort of grew out of um protestant charities and catholic charities. So I don't remember exact origin of it, to be honest with you, but synagogues participated in their

01:22:34.070 - 01:22:52.610

activities through Rabbi CAhn, but sort of outsiders in the sense you're welcome to come and join us doing this. Houston Metropolitan ministries was specifically designed to be interfaith and Rabbi Kahn had been part of the founding of it and um he said to me some shortly

01:22:52.610 - 01:23:13.220

after I came uh that fall, I think if I'm not mistaken, um it's important that you become part of the interfaith activities of the city, why don't you get involved in interfaith ministries or then Houston Metropolitan ministries. Okay, so I did, I became active, I worked

01:23:13.220 - 01:23:34.270

with them in all kinds of things through them. Um It's hard for me to destroy Montrose back then really was very different than it is now. Montrose had a lot of gay people, had a lot of runaway kids. Remember the 70s was a period of drugs,

01:23:34.280 - 01:23:54.640

kids who had been thrown out of their houses because they were gay or because they were using drugs, whatever. So it was it was it was not a rough neighborhood, but it was it was you know, it just almost seedy, not quite, but almost so through

01:23:54.650 - 01:24:15.220

interfaith ministries and I became involved in some of the other uh groups that were involved down there. I know, for example, I got involved with with runaway teens um in the eighties I got involved with uh with with people who had AIDS, I would go I

01:24:15.220 - 01:24:31.040

wasn't really a formal chaplain, but because they knew, I knew young people, I would get called to come down and counsel with with you know, somebody with AIDS. Um I guess I was stupid, I never thought about it, I could get it, but I mean, we

01:24:31.040 - 01:24:45.980

were protected and all that kind of stuff, but I just, you know, these were these were people in need. And so even though that wasn't quote unquote interfaith work, none of these kids were jewish, but through interfaith ministries and my connection with some of the um

01:24:45.990 - 01:24:59.010

some of the organizations were that they were down there. I got involved when they had a kid in trouble, I would come in council, I went to the AIDS place, there was a place where, you know, the people went to die literally. Uh and I would

01:24:59.010 - 01:25:20.250

counsel with some of them didn't do a lot of that, but some of it, but um anyhow, so I continued to work with interfaith ministries. Um I particularly became involved of all the activities with their meals on wheels. Um and I remember in Either 1971 or

01:25:20.250 - 01:25:39.890

two, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I went to Rabbi Cahn and I said, you know, and at the time, by the way, the government was really not involved in feeding people and we had this organization called uh meals, meals on wheels and I said to

01:25:39.890 - 01:26:02.030

robert Kahn, why don't we go to the congregation on Yom Kipper and say instead of since you're not eating today, we've created a hunger fund just for young Kipper um and whatever you were going to spend on food for your family today, and you're not spending,

01:26:02.030 - 01:26:14.920

write a check to the temple and we'll see that it goes to feed people. The idea that people were going hungry in Houston texas just was appalling to me and I didn't know what was going on until I got involved in the interfaith ministries. What did

01:26:14.920 - 01:26:31.220

I know? So we did that appeal and that appeal still goes on today. Um um for a long time the money went to interfaith ministries to the meals on wheels program, I don't know where it goes now, but it all goes to feed hungry people one

01:26:31.220 - 01:26:47.650

way or another. Um for when I became the senior rabbi, I sort of withdrew from interfaith ministry. What became then interfaith ministries, they just changed the name because I really felt I needed to vote the first few years to really hear and learning how to do

01:26:47.650 - 01:27:04.350

the job. And then after I got it sort of settled, I went back to interfaith ministries. I subsequently subsequently became went on the executive committee, I became the president for two years. I was, I was honored to receive a life board member, an honorary life board

01:27:04.350 - 01:27:24.040

member. Um again, I don't participate much anymore, but but from time to time they'll call me to do this or that I've been, they started an award for, for clergy participation. I was the first honoree of that was supposed to be the second one last year.

01:27:24.040 - 01:27:49.040

They didn't do it because of Covid, so the second one will be awarded this year and they've asked me to give the award. Um I also um um when um when the idea when jimmy carter's idea of building homes uh for for families came up, um

01:27:49.050 - 01:28:10.380

I went to the congregation and proposed that we do one and we raised the money and we built one of the houses uh for for a family. Um then when the biennial was here, I think it was like 80 or 81, I don't remember uh the

01:28:10.380 - 01:28:24.500

biennial built, decided to do one, that was one of the activities, well of course they didn't finish it. So who did you call on to finish it? Temple Emanu El. And then I think we did a third house as well, if I'm not mistaken. Um when

01:28:24.500 - 01:28:42.030

jimmy carter came to Houston to promote a building of 100 houses, there was a project to build 100 houses. I was invited to be the jewish representative on that group and I went, it was in a church that had never had a rabbi in it and

01:28:42.040 - 01:28:57.780

interestingly enough never had a woman on the pulpit in that and there was a black woman who was part of the process and she was, she went up on that pulpit and gave a speech. President carter was there um and she was the first woman on

01:28:57.780 - 01:29:13.720

the pulpit and I have to say I was, I was a bit of a bad boy because President carter got up and talked about how you know, christian and building houses and homeless and christian and christian and christian. And then when it came my turn to

01:29:13.730 - 01:29:28.840

speak, I got up and I and I in a nice way and it was not part of my plan speech because I didn't know he was gonna do that, I said to President carter, I have to say something like I'm so proud to be a part

01:29:28.840 - 01:29:45.840

of this project to know that you know, the value of you know, building homes for the homeless, that Christianity has values how proud I am, that the tradition that it came from his mind and we are part, I mean, I I couldn't resist, it was like

01:29:45.840 - 01:30:07.710

here's this rabbi who's been asked to be there and it's as though I'm not even, you know, um there was also an organization that um um um was formed to help people with AIDS and I was in the church invited to be there and the same

01:30:07.710 - 01:30:19.320

kind of thing happened. And I and when I stood up, it was my turn to speak. I did a similar kind of thing because you know, they invited me to be there as a full participant. Uh and I wanted to be sure that I was there

01:30:19.320 - 01:30:38.870

representing not just myself, but my faith that you know, that has those values as well. Um I was on the founding board of the first hospice in Houston. Um when I told people they didn't even know what hospice was. So and you know, various committees that

01:30:38.870 - 01:30:59.720

that that the city had, I served on this or that nothing major just you know, when, when the when the committee was formed a few years ago uh to look at the whole process by which uh people are uh put in jail and and can't come

01:30:59.720 - 01:31:17.160

up with the money for bail and they just have to sit there and there was a whole move that uh to prevent that system from happening uh so that these people, you know you're sitting waiting and you can't you can't afford bail and so you're sitting

01:31:17.160 - 01:31:34.530

in jail for six months waiting for your trial. Uh There was a whole move to try and change that system. I was part of that in a very tangential way, but again, just when they thought about having interfaith something they always called not just me, but

01:31:34.530 - 01:31:56.670

the temple I think was part of it and I know that the Phare Fund that Aubrey and Sylvia established. Yeah that was something I one of the things that you encounter when you're out in the interfaith world is that churches operate differently from synagogues and part

01:31:56.670 - 01:32:14.670

of the money that they raised in the church goes for reaching out into the community, you know, feeding people housing people, you know, helping people all kinds of things. And of course temples aren't organized that way. Um That in the jewish community is done through other

01:32:14.670 - 01:32:33.950

other organizations like the Federation A. J. C. A. D L. A. Dasa etcetera etcetera etcetera. Okay, I couldn't name them all. So it seemed to me that in order for us to be able to um to sort of hold our heads high and say look we

01:32:34.620 - 01:32:53.050

participate financially as well, nobody ever said anything, nobody ever looked down, I just, it's something I felt, so I can't remember how it came up, but I was talking to Aubrey Farm and he told me about his foundation that he had set up. Um and I

01:32:53.060 - 01:33:10.460

said to Aubrey, um how would you feel? And I knew what the foundation, the kind of thing it was doing. And I said, how would you feel about making the foundation part of the temple and creating a committee and letting people apply for, you know, just

01:33:10.460 - 01:33:24.120

like they do to these churches apply for financial help. He thought it was a fabulous idea. And so I went to the board, the board thought it was a great idea and they accepted it and the farm fund has given thousands of dollars away over the

01:33:24.120 - 01:33:42.900

years is an amazing list of the things that we've done out in the community under the name of the congregation, Emmanuel Sylvia and Aubrey Farm Fund. Um and again, it's just, it's just another way in which we're the only congregation I can't speak in the country,

01:33:42.900 - 01:33:58.150

but we're certainly the only congregation in the city that has a fund that does that kind of thing. It's just, it's who we are, who we've always been. It's part of why we stayed here. Sure you mentioned earlier, you know, that you grew up in Memphis

01:33:58.160 - 01:34:21.210

in a very divided, an insular jewish community and you came to Houston to a congregation that, you know, was born out of a very bitter ideological schism. But I'm curious to hear your reflections about the Houston jewish community at large and maybe your relationships with other

01:34:21.220 - 01:34:45.690

clergy colleagues over the years. one of the things that I love about Houston is that unlike some cities, whatever ideological differences there are between Orthodox Conservative and reform, this is not a splintered community. There used to be something called the, was it the texas conference of

01:34:45.690 - 01:35:09.180

Rabbis, Is that the name of it? I think it was the colony texas texas Qala, that's what it was. Orthodox conservative reform, the Houston Rabbinic Association, Orthodox conservative reform when women became rabbis. Uh, and we got our first woman rabbi here in Houston, no question, but

01:35:09.180 - 01:35:27.090

what she should be a part of the, of the organization. So the kind of splintering that somehow takes place in lots of communities that never existed here, that is due in large part, I have to tell you too, in my opinion, to the Orthodox rabbis in

01:35:27.090 - 01:35:47.970

Houston who were open to to that concept that they are part of the community. Uh, in my time, it was Rabbi Radinsky who spearheaded that that concept of, you know, we are all part of one community. Um, he actually had a very close relationship with Judith

01:35:47.980 - 01:36:09.980

was a boring co than Abrams who was a thomas who was really a tall modest in her own right and studied with him. So, um from the professional point of view, the rabbis, uh that was true, same thing on the lay side, the federation has always

01:36:09.990 - 01:36:30.340

which is sort of a core organization within the community, but represented by A. D. L. And Hadassah and and A. J. C. And every other one. And all of the institutions, the family service, the home, you know, the seven acres has always drawn from the entire

01:36:30.340 - 01:36:51.760

community. And so the sense that we are working together, you know, you may be shown, we may not be um That's something that I think defines this community. I remember at one there was a question because I guess because of cost, nobody objected in principle, but

01:36:51.770 - 01:37:07.040

there was a question raised about whether an event in the jewish community should be kosher. I don't keep kosher, why do I have to be kosher? And I remember there was actually a meeting about it. Okay, and and the conclusion was was very clear, you know,

01:37:07.050 - 01:37:22.040

if it's for the community, then we cannot have it be something that any member of the community cannot attend. You may not keep kosher, but you can attend if it's kosher. If I don't keep kosher and it's not kosher, I can't attend. And so that sense

01:37:22.040 - 01:37:39.540

of this is the community, we do, what will make the community work best, That's what we do. Uh And as I said, that's both on the rabbinic level, the professional level of the of the different uh institutions as well as the laypeople. And I've always loved

01:37:39.540 - 01:38:00.470

that about this city and never, I never felt the kind of division uh, that in the city that I grew up in. Um, I don't know if I ever were to say that that's, that sort of defines what I think, you know, this could be how

01:38:00.470 - 01:38:20.220

this community operates. I think I've I've definitely noticed that as well and I know that other people I've spoken to have, I remember when I first came my second day of Rosh Hashanah, I went to United Orthodox, we didn't have services here. People are like, you

01:38:20.220 - 01:38:38.890

should have seen the look, well, it's, you know, I just, first of all, I grew up going to days and the fact that, you know, and I had Rabbi Radinsky was not the rabbi at the time, he came subsequently. Um, I just decided I wanted to

01:38:38.890 - 01:38:56.170

go to Schultz, I went to United Orthodox. They saw they honored, we will, they let me do a, you know, opening the art kind of thing. Just, you know, and I truly think that in terms of, me personally, I think that act really opened a lot

01:38:56.170 - 01:39:16.230

of doors of people respecting me as someone who was not divisive in any way, I won't mention his name, but there's a, there was a man in the community, he was a survivor and um was Orthodox. Um, I don't know how or to practice he was,

01:39:16.230 - 01:39:30.560

but it was Orthodox. Um and there came a time when he, there was a committee that I was on, I'm not gonna even mention what it was about and he was at loggerheads with the committee and it had to do with something to do with tradition,

01:39:30.690 - 01:39:47.080

um, and and participation in the broader community. And they asked me to be the one to go speak to him and I did, and I got him to change his mind, I think, because he knew how much I respected the way he practiced Judaism. I got

01:39:47.080 - 01:39:58.620

him to see that there was another way to view this without in any way him having to compromise who he is or what he had to do, but to see how for the benefit of the community, if he would just participate, you know, he didn't have

01:39:58.620 - 01:40:16.690

to be there, just not object to it and he was willing to do that. And I think, I think that kind of thing where, you know, I I just felt as though if you're jewish, it doesn't matter how you practice Judaism, it matters that you practice

01:40:16.690 - 01:40:35.970

Judaism, um, what's his name? I'm blanking on his name now. The sort of jewish pundit from California. Pretty conservative guy, I can't remember his name. Yeah, Dennis Prager. He made one of the most important statements about Judaism I have ever heard. He said, the only question

01:40:35.970 - 01:40:52.660

is not whether you're Orthodox conservative reform. The question is, are you a serious jew or you're not a serious jew. And I think that's a very important statement, I think you know this is not 16th century Poland, you know, this is 21st then 20th century America.

01:40:52.670 - 01:41:12.780

And if you look at who we are as a community, I think that's the important question. Are you a serious jew sense? Um, so I want to talk now about a difficult subject. It's May 2021 and we have lived through a really difficult, you know, year

01:41:12.780 - 01:41:34.480

plus coronavirus pandemic, which is totally upended lives. And and so many people have have lost loved ones and your wife linda passed away during this time as well. And you spoke very movingly last junkie poor at the service about what it was like to have linda

01:41:34.480 - 01:41:52.620

passed away and to be To be deprived of all the traditional rituals around morning that Judaism provides for. And by the way, the same for the celebratory things. Yes. You know, you're having a bar Mitzvah and 10 people can be there, right. And everyone and you

01:41:52.620 - 01:42:08.300

have 20 people in your family and they can't all be there watching on zoom from. Well, the reason I point that out is that as hard, I mean it's probably more difficult for someone who's morning than for someone who's celebrating, but both of them in both

01:42:08.300 - 01:42:29.240

senses, you are deprived of the very, I mean it's it's a public community event and it's your even if it's not for everybody it's your community. Your I mean four people at Linda Walters Funeral. I mean it's a yeah how did you I mean how did

01:42:29.240 - 01:42:55.040

you cope with that? And what sources of strength did you find in those moments? One of the things that we did when linda died was my my oldest son had access to. It wasn't zoom. It's some something like zoom but allows you to have more people

01:42:55.340 - 01:43:18.830

okay. And so he set up a sort of a minion for and let people know when people signed on okay and something happened that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Uh One of my son's closest friends is a rabbi. And so he asked him to conduct the service

01:43:18.830 - 01:43:42.640

which he did. I gotta I gotta do this without getting teary and after he did a short service he opened it up for people to share memories of linda now yes people would have done that under normal circumstances but to have it concentrated like that. I

01:43:42.640 - 01:44:01.950

have to tell you when Benjamin said let's do a minion I thought I don't think I want to do that. He said no we're gonna do that. Dad and I have to tell you so many of the people were my kids friends more their friends really

01:44:01.950 - 01:44:25.030

than my friends you know and to hear all those people especially young people talk about linda. I have to tell you that gave me a comfort that I had never had For the 24 hours before that or the 48 from the time Linda died until that

01:44:25.030 - 01:44:44.460

moment. It really was very powerful now. I don't know if everybody else did it that way um and I have to tell you when I went from the cemetery, as I said in that speech, in my sermon from the cemetery to an empty apartment without all

01:44:44.460 - 01:45:00.610

the people saying rabbit Roy, where did linda keep the trays and where's the silverware and the minion. It was stark startling to go from a, you know, my daughter turned left to go back to Austin and I turned right to go home and I hadn't wasn't

01:45:00.610 - 01:45:18.530

able to give her a hug and then to walk into this empty apartment, it was you know really quite over overpowering, you know in a way, but I have to say that that event of Benjamin setting that up and being able to hear people talk about

01:45:18.540 - 01:45:34.710

finally gave me some sense of what community, you know, that's what the, that's what happens at a yard side or at a a minion, you know, or when people come to visit and people couldn't come and visit, it wasn't just that moment people couldn't come and

01:45:34.710 - 01:45:51.270

visit me. So that experience became very powerful for me and I don't think, I don't know that I ever shared that with my kids, I should do that. It just, it just was, I'm thinking about it now. Um, so I have subsequently performed funerals as you

01:45:51.270 - 01:46:18.010

know for people and done in the same way. Um, and um, I just, it reinforced how how important community is as a jew. You may remember a book I think called, written by Zaborowski and Marks or something called Life Is With People. I'm sure you've read

01:46:18.010 - 01:46:36.540

it, it's about a study of what the jewish community and its life is with people and there were no the people weren't there. It was very hard and I'm sure for every funeral for every anniversary, you know, special anniversary for every bar mitzvah for you know,

01:46:37.260 - 01:46:57.360

that having to do it without your community, your friends, your family, without them. There, it's just been traumatic in every sense of the word, no question about it and difficult on the other side viewing it from the point of view of the temple and I I've

01:46:57.360 - 01:47:14.940

told him many times my hat goes off to rob a high on in the staff, what they have done to try and fill the void. Using the internet in some amazing and creative ways. I'm sure you've seen the statistic that came out that now for the

01:47:14.940 - 01:47:32.710

first time in american history, less than half of americans identify with a specific church, synagogue or mosque, you know, what does that say for the future of Judaism, you know, um in one sense, I think it's true that having nothing to do with the synagogue in

01:47:32.710 - 01:47:50.590

one sense, what the pandemic has done is to hasten what was happening in America already, people going online, working from home shopping online, you know, depending more and more on the technology probably sped that up by four or five years, you know, it was going in

01:47:50.590 - 01:48:13.270

that direction anyhow. Okay. But I think one of the lessons we're learning is that we need to be together. You know, I said to somebody who, who owns a company talked about working from home versus being in the office. I said, let's suppose you are, you

01:48:13.270 - 01:48:35.170

hire a new employee, How do you onboard that person, if you never are able to introduce him or her to the corporate culture that the company culture you've created, if everybody's working from home, how do you create that sense? So, I mean, I, the same thing

01:48:35.170 - 01:48:57.250

now is true in the synagogue, I think, I think yes, it's wonderful to be able to watch services from home etcetera, etcetera. And we started that before the pandemic when you, you know, I watch from home. But on the last day of Passover for you Oscar,

01:48:57.260 - 01:49:11.380

I wanted to be here. I wanted to sit here in this building in this room to say cottage for linda and yes, that was important to me, how could have stayed home and said, I wanted to be in the room, I wanted to, even though we

01:49:11.380 - 01:49:34.360

were distant and we couldn't hug and we couldn't, I just wanted to feel the presence of a congregation to say cottage. I needed that. Um, so I'm hoping that for all the changes, many positive, don't get me wrong. I'm hoping that that people will as as

01:49:34.360 - 01:49:54.320

we come out of the pandemic and we're able to be together more and more. I'm hoping people will return. I think it's important to have that sense of being together, to pray together, to celebrate together, to mourn together to be with each other. I mean, one

01:49:54.320 - 01:50:09.760

of the things that for example, I would come on Shabbat, you know, uh with linda, this is before linda died. We'd come up on Shabbat with no plans and we're running somebody going to have dinner together. You know, we didn't have plans. Sometimes we did. Sometimes

01:50:09.760 - 01:50:21.730

we didn't. But you know, what are y'all doing for dinner? We're going home to have eggs, okay, what are you doing for dinner? We're going after. So and so join us for dinner Or we would say something else. Let's we're going to dinner someplace you want

01:50:21.730 - 01:50:42.230

to come. Don't have that. That's part of community. That's part of creating sense of togetherness. Judaism is not an aesthetic religion. We're not supposed to practice in isolation. Yeah. Well, you know, there's the famous story even in the Talmud about the rabbi who's up in the

01:50:42.230 - 01:51:01.340

caves and meditating and you know, the God appears. I think in a vision and says, no, this is not where you belong, you belong down there, you know, with you belong with the people, not up here, you know meditating. Yeah, yeah, so we're coming near the

01:51:01.350 - 01:51:25.560

end of our time together and I'm just curious to hear, How do you think Emmanuel has changed in the 51 years that you have been here? Well, part of the answer is how Emmanuel hasn't changed as well as how it has changed if I may, the

01:51:25.560 - 01:52:06.150

way it hasn't changed is the most important answer. It is it continues to be the warm loving synagogue community that it was founded to be rooted in who we are historically, but not locked into it, free to think, free to be free to think forward. In

01:52:06.150 - 01:52:29.860

the case of jewish tradition. Moving forward was recapturing in the sense of tradition and hebrew enchanting and all of that. So moving forward is not always turning your back on the past. Sometimes moving forward means bringing, you know, saying, you know, the it's not reformed Judaism,

01:52:29.870 - 01:52:56.300

it's reformed Judaism is an active thing. Okay, and so I would say to you that part of what hasn't changed is that we remain true to the founding documents of this temple, to the spirit and the values of the people who founded this place and committed

01:52:56.300 - 01:53:14.790

to the importance of the synagogue, both in the lives of its members and in the life of the community in which we participate and if you look at the things that we are doing, uh Rabbi own and the staff's participation moving the temple forward and what's

01:53:14.790 - 01:53:37.680

going on in the city in terms of race relations and things like that just fits right in. Okay, so that part hasn't changed. Okay, What has changed I think is Because we are in the 21st century and someone once said to me the 21st century is

01:53:37.680 - 01:54:08.640

the 20th century on steroids and I said that's not right. The 21st century is totally different from the 20th century completely. Okay. Um, and so how you integrate the new technological world into Judaism, I think is critical. As I said to you, I admire the way

01:54:08.650 - 01:54:27.520

rabbi own and the rest of the staff are doing it, but this is just the very beginning. Um, it opens doors that we never thought possible like what's happened with not being able to come and walk in the doors and yet you can still observe services,

01:54:27.520 - 01:54:42.450

you can still do that. But think of the opportunities that that creates in terms of being a part of people's everyday lives, you can, you know, you don't have to come to the temple, you can click on it and you can learn, you know, you could,

01:54:42.560 - 01:55:03.780

you could attend my, my Shabbat morning class continues on zoom, you know, I have three people, four people who don't live in Houston who are part of my Shabbat morning tour class all because of zoom, You know, I miss the classroom, I miss being in that

01:55:03.780 - 01:55:29.760

room, on the other hand, look at the opportunity of somebody from Israel, have somebody from, Ohio, I have somebody from, from san Antonio, think about what that means. Okay, so how you make that an opportunity and multiply, it is something that I think is gonna have

01:55:29.760 - 01:55:47.790

to change. I think we're gonna have to figure out how to keep the synagogue an important part of people's lives in the synagogue and outside the synagogue at the same time. I think that's a hell of a challenge. Big challenge. Um, and as I said, I

01:55:47.800 - 01:56:05.240

look, we're in the infancy of this. So I'm, I'm excited that, you know, that robert Ryan and the staff are, are so intent on making it work to the best of their ability. And so, you know, I'm not that I don't know how to do that,

01:56:05.270 - 01:56:18.230

that's outside my baby. Well, I'm so glad I'm not in charge of it. I'm glad I'm retired if you want to know the truth. Yeah, I'm sure know, they've, they've done an incredible job and I know clergy all over the city have been, you know, working

01:56:18.230 - 01:56:33.250

really hard. It's hard when you don't have that face to face reaction. People in the, you know, and yeah, the dynamic in my class, in, in the, in the room and out of the room is totally different. No question about it, you know, and I miss

01:56:33.250 - 01:56:50.270

that dynamic. Okay. Um but by the same token, you know, we're able to do something, we couldn't otherwise do. I hate to say this because it will exclude the non houstonians, but I'm anxious to get back in the back in the room with those people. There's

01:56:50.270 - 01:57:05.710

a there's an exciting dynamic that takes place that doesn't happen online. Right? Well, you might be able to do a kind of hybrid setup where you're teaching live in a room, but there's a camera that, you know, people can watch at the same time, right? I

01:57:05.720 - 01:57:21.020

don't know, there are all kinds of possibilities, all kinds of possibilities. Okay, Rabbi, last question for you, there's a famous story, you know? Well that someone goes to Rabbi Hillel and says teach me, you know, all of Torah on one ft and you know his answer.

01:57:21.020 - 01:57:55.460

So I'm curious what your answer is, What is to you the essence of Judaism and its teachings. You could have warned me about this question. What is the essence? Well, I'm gonna go back to what we said earlier in the sense that

01:57:55.460 - 01:58:27.770

are you a serious jew? Okay, so if you are serious too, what does that mean to you? I guess maybe that's a way of reframing the question a little bit. The first thing it means is, do you feel that being jewish makes a difference in your

01:58:27.770 - 01:58:50.120

life personally. Would you be different? Might you be different, might your life be different? Might your values be different? If you were not jewish, if the answer to that is yes, then you're on those, that that's part of, that's the basis of being a serious shoe.

01:58:50.750 - 01:59:20.370

And then the question becomes, what do you do about it? Okay, so to be a serious jew means to be an active part of the community for some people, that means giving time for some people, that means giving money for some people, that means giving expertise,

01:59:22.980 - 01:59:47.920

if you want the jewish community to be vibrant, to be meaningful to what's the word, I want to be a vibrant force in your life and in the communities life then you have to be a part of it, you will receive by doing that, but you

01:59:47.920 - 02:00:06.230

have to start out by being a giver and I don't just need the money. We all know that there are a lot of people who are, I don't like the word good jews but you know participating jews, active, jews who may or may not even believe

02:00:06.230 - 02:00:35.500

in God who may or may not be particularly spiritual people, okay, but to have some sense that there is something bigger than you beyond you to me, the most important word in Judaism is the word mitzvah. Now in orthodoxy, that means a commandment, that's not what

02:00:35.500 - 02:01:04.430

I mean by mitzvah in in the reform sense, my translation of mitzvah is sacred obligation for you? A sacred obligation as an Orthodox, you would mean to keep kosher observe Shabbat, whatever for me, a sacred obligation means to live my life knowing that there is something

02:01:04.460 - 02:01:26.950

bigger than me that makes demands on my life. I once heard someone say, it doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, it matters if you live your life as though you believe in God or not. And it seems to me that that's that's a

02:01:26.950 - 02:01:41.840

powerful and very jewish answer. There is no law, even though we say Shema Israel, there's no law that you have to believe something to be a jew. It's just nowhere says you to be a jew, you have to believe this or that, okay, we know what

02:01:41.840 - 02:01:56.420

you what we don't believe, but you know, you and I both know many an agnostic or an atheist and you would never question that they're good, jews, so to speak, or that they're active or that their value, their opinion doesn't matter. So the sense that there

02:01:56.420 - 02:02:26.350

is something bigger than you, whether you call it God or not, that makes demands on your life. I'm we are all so blessed. Not everybody is blessed, but most of the people you and I know are so blessed to live your life knowing that you are

02:02:26.350 - 02:02:48.680

blessed and living your life in response to knowing that your life is a blessing. That's what it means to me to be a serious jew. And so does that mean that because you're blessed, you're not gonna face troubles? Of course not. Does that mean that you're

02:02:48.680 - 02:03:09.180

not gonna have hardship? Of course not. Does that mean that life isn't going to deal with some pretty serious blows? Of course not. But in the end I know people whose lives you wouldn't want to live and I certainly wouldn't want to live, but they consider

02:03:09.180 - 02:03:23.710

themselves blessed and they take each day and they try to make their lives in the world around them a little bit better because they live and that's what I think. That's what I think a jew is a good, you know, a serious jew. I don't like

02:03:23.710 - 02:03:38.200

the word good, but a serious jew. I don't know if that's an answer, but it's my answer. That's a great answer. Rabbi, thank you so much. This has been such a privilege to spend time with you please. It was my privilege. I talk about all this

02:03:38.450 - 02:04:02.320

thanks, you know, among the blessings that I feel I have experience in my life, I have to tell you that being the rabbi of this place has been one of them. I never came here thinking it would happen, not why I came um I never dreamed

02:04:02.320 - 02:04:22.100

when I first made the decision to become a rabbi that I would I would have the life I've had that I have had the opportunities not so much to do, which I have had, but the opportunities to grow in ways that I never knew. A person

02:04:22.100 - 02:04:40.510

could grow to be able to do for people. The things I've been able to do to have people do. For me, the things that they've done, that I'm not expected being the senior rabbi, being a rabbi in this amazing congregation, founded by people who just just

02:04:40.510 - 02:04:54.060

got it. They knew who they were and what they wanted and why they wanted it and what this temple should be. And they put those into the words that founded this place. And I have tried to honor that every day that I was a rabbi here

02:04:54.060 - 02:05:09.060

and still do, even though I'm not active an emeritus, I am so grateful for that blessing of having been the rabbi here. There are no words, thank you rabbi. I think we got it.