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my name is Joshua furman, I'm the curator of the Houston jewish history archive at Rice University and I'm here with Rabbi Gideon estes, how are you, Rabbi? I'm doing great, thank you. All right. Today is May 25th 2020 and um excited to have this opportunity to

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um chat with you about your background, your role as a rabbi here in Houston and especially now during the ongoing covid 19 pandemic. So why don't we just start and tell us a little bit about um your family and your childhood. Sure. So um I'm a

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native of the san Francisco Bay area. Um I grew up in a small town called pinole California, which is about 26 miles northeast of san Francisco about 15 minutes outside of Berkeley was technically born in Oakland but raised near panel. Um and my parents still live

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in final. Um and growing up my my mother's Israeli um my dad's a naturalist, Israeli. My dad was group in livermore California. Um but went to Israel and converted to Judaism. Um Read my mother um My two brothers were born in Israel and then my parents

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made Derrida and moved back to California and I was born two years after they moved back to the States. Uh My family growing was not very religious um kinda would call it an Israeli secular family though in my mom's words, we belong to Reform synagogue because

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uh she said if we're in Israel wouldn't be an issue because you feel it, but you feel it in the air. Um but here in the States, you needed something to kind of feel Judaism. So we belonged to reform synagogue which were affiliated with till my

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bar mitzvah. And due to a certain kind of challenges um we left that synagogue after my bar mitzvah. But I continued getting a jewish education with a Hebrew High program called which was part of the jewish Federation of Greater Space Center for Living and Learning which

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was a co curricular high school program that also had religious retreats. That was very formative for me for my religious identity. Um I did all 22 retreats I could possibly do which included um several as I kind of like a C. I. T. Kind of counselor

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called uh and I loved those retreats and my Judaism is a major part of my identity. So therefore one of the major considerations I had when I was applying to colleges is I wanted to make sure to go to college. I had a vibrant jewish life.

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Um And so I ended up going to U. C. L. A. Which was where I did my undergrad and that was very very involved in hell and jewish life at U. C. L. A. Um My major, what did you major in jewish studies though? Uh In

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full disclosure I honestly originally had that major because I heard the non true rumor that it was easier to get into school with a non competitive major. So I applied as I declared as a jewish studies major when I applied to U. C. L. A. Um

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It's actually not true that the non competitive major makes it easier to get in. Um But when I went to orientation and I was told the description of what the major requirements or as I said to him I remember saying this to my orientation council. I

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was like wait so you mean to tell me like all these courses that I want to take as electives are my requirements. I'm totally keeping this major. So I stayed as a jewish studies major. Um I ended up being the jewish studies major for the class

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of 2003 U. C. L. A. One of two people in the department near Lansing cultures and department nearest languages and cultures department. So I did graduate the top and bottom of my major. Um And then I took a year off after college and then went to

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Rabbinical school. Um And I went to the jewish Theological Seminary. David Myers. Very much so. I had David Myers for a lot of my history courses. Um Also took courses with was the executive director of you say hello at the time and he would teach a

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sociology course in an introductory course. Um I had a Hebrew with nancy Ezer and dr amazing people. Like I took 11 courses with nancy has er dr nancy is er um and four courses with um a lot with David Myers uh Friedel Spiegel. Um And I

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can't really remember a lot of the other ones but I'm sure I can. Who was a guest lecturer at one point my concentration was in jewish history. So sure. And did you I mean when you set foot on the U. C. L. A. Campus, did you

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were you intending to go to rabbinical school afterwards or was that not yet? Part of the plan? That was not yet part of the plan. However I did um I was very close to my kindergarten teacher. Um She came to my bar mitzvah um And I

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was very involved with her and she was a major mentor to me. She did tell me that apparently in kindergarten I said I wanted to be a rabbi when I grew up. I don't recall that but I don't think that my kindergarten teacher is a liar.

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So that's very possible that I said that um my kindergartner wants to be a paleontologist. So we'll see. We'll see if in 20 years she's a paleontologist, that would be really really interesting. So I always love to talk to rabbis about what plan B. Was. So

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if you hadn't I was gonna become an attorney, I for sure thought I was going to be a lawyer. Um I liked picking apart like kind of arguments and textual analysis of it. I like arguing, I'm good at it. Um And being persuasive and I think

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that I would have done a good job at it. Um so I totally could have seen myself as a litigator. So um yeah, so I saw that the other kind of interesting thing where I always had an interest is I would see myself also like the

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hospitality industry, like a hotel manager or something like that. Um I could see how, but I could see how the skill set would, would translate right? You're, you're a people person, you want people to feel comfortable and engaged and involved. What do you, what do you

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enjoy most about being a rabbi? So um one of my favorite things is I'm a generalist. I like having my fingers and all kinds of things. So there's one area where I'm very specific, right? Like Judaism is very specific and I used to always say one

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of the reasons I'm a rabbi is like that Judaism is my biggest passion and so like I can talk about it for hours and hours, but what I like about being a rabbi and particularly being a congregational rabbi is that it allows you to do all

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kinds of different things and kind of feel different things. And so um I really like that aspect of the congregational rabbit. So I'm there for life cycle events, but I'm also like educating and understanding about like construction needs and you know budgets and you know, I'm

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one of the main repairs for when our security fence goes down about how to reset the fence like because I'm in a small school. So it's you know like the chief cook and bottle washer kind of analogy is like there's no job that's too small. Like

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you know, I know how to take out the trash and like turn on the parking lot lights and you know, give the sermon, rabbis at smaller congregations have to have to kind of do it all. Yeah. Is there is there a piece of the portfolio that

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you find um particularly challenging? I know I know for me I was never a rabbi, although I did I did consider it briefly in college before before settling on a on a different path. But I think one of the challenges that I that I experienced when

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I was I was a jewish professional after college, I taught, I worked at a synagogue in boston, I was a school teacher, I was a um youth group leader, family educator. And you're always on right, You're always, you know, no Shabbat, your work, you know, holidays,

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you're you're working and it's very hard to kind of carve out that personal spiritual space for yourself. Do you do you find that also or or not? Not so much, no. Absolutely. It's it's hard um I remember a post I made on social media like my

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first or second year um in the cabinet. Um as we had R. I. S. J. L. Fellow um was staying with me. Um and he was amazed by like the line of like sugar cereal boxes of sugar sales weakness of mine. Um I like sugar shell

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a lot in particular. Uh I like um cocoa pebbles corn pots um and I like crunch berries. Um Those are among some ones that I really like. Um and other and golden grams and cinnamon toast crunch, but toast crunch is a classic. Um But I took

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a picture of like these collection of sugar cereals and also cookie crisp um of these triggers that I said um like life in the fish bowl now you see the fish food. Um because that's the thing rabbi is that we live in a fish bowl when

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everyone sees it. So I thought it was funny. Um So absolutely it's it's one of those challenges. Um It's also particularly challenging as a single rabbi. Um And that like I also am a small shows that I kind of make friends with people that are also

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in the congregation and it's very hard sometimes to walk that that balance of being rabbi but also trying to be friendly because there are there, I can't get as close as I might want to write cause I can't be fully um vulnerable because that's unhealthy at

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times. So that's a that's a challenge. Um I don't say the challenge which kind of means the work is that some of the supervisory and kind of like board interaction stuff. Well it's interesting to learn is a really challenging. There aren't so much, there isn't so

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much nonprofit management skills taught in rabbinical school. Um and I think those are some of the bigger challenges uh that you don't really, it's mostly on the job and experience kind of training that we don't really get a lot of help for particularly like supervisory kind

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of experience, which is sometimes challenging or in your case repairing the security fence. Yeah, so that was really the certain times, tell us a little bit more about your um your synagogue, you've been the Rabbi of congregation or ami since when was it? 2010? Yeah, july

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2010, so I was ordained in May 2010. Um and literally I got the final notification that I had been approved to be there by like two days before ordination. Um and I started um my official start date was july 15th 2010. Um I moved to Houston

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on july 4th. Um and uh congregation army is a congregation that was a merger of two shovels, congregation beth um which was started in the seventies. Um and congregation or Hadash started in the nineties as a breakaway show from shalom um and or Hadash had a

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rabbi, but no building um and uh beth um had a building, but no rabbi, so they thought let's like merge and they found that their actual ideologies really flowed. So Beth um sold its building and they bought a new space um which later became the building

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we have today. They strip center just down the street on will crest green while they were building the building and then moved into the building that we're at right now. Um, So the Aura me was starting September September round, September of 01 remember correctly. Um I

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think so, we can double check that, but I think that's what it was. Um and it was served for its first nine years um by rabbi um was now back in town so you could talk more with him. Um and uh he left the synagogue and

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they were served for an interim for one year. Um uh was a rabbinical student at the time uh, did the holidays and then matt Michaels took over for the interim year um for the oh 9 10 kind of academic kind of religious here until the, until

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the summer. And then I started in the summer of 2010 and have been there ever since. So come this july will mark 10 years before Covid we're gonna actually be marking my 10 year anniversary with a gala. This May, which was now rescheduled? Think we're playing

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May of next year to kind of mark my my first decade here at the show. Um and how many, how many of your colleagues from your um school cohort are still with their the first congregation that they served after. So from my school cohort, none from

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my ordination year of the conservative movement, there's one other alone currency is still at um una in um Knoxville Tennessee. And he was also at a small school. Um So we were both at started a size congregation, they were still there. But yeah, so it's kind

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of unusual and it's a significant achievement to actually stay at the same congregation for 10 years. Um I think the congregation likes me, I like them. Uh There's a lot of good synergy that happens. One of things I love about um for me is that it's

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a very late participatory synagogue. Um I very rarely read Torah um which is nice. Uh We have like we have a nice cohort of late people that Read Torah. Um and we have other people who are willing to train other people to to read Torah, which

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is a really nice thing. We have an assortment of people who lead services. We have a tradition of encouraging our youth after they become bar mitzvah to lead services in Read Torah. Um And that's part of the culture of origami, which is a really nice thing.

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Um and we encourage and that's something that's really great. Um Members live live in West Houston. Where where do your members live? Where do they come from? So I would say probably the plurality, the largest percentage of our members live either in Katy or Memorial. Um

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But we actually have members from all over. We have several members who live inside the loop. Um we have members up in Cyprus? We have a family in college station. We have families in Bay city. So literally we have people all over. We have one person

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who is a full member and lives in Chicago. Um that's a long drive. He doesn't come regularly to services. Yeah, and and and Artemis is a congregation. There's um thank you for giving us that long and detailed history and I know there's a there's a Space

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Torah, isn't there? There's a documentary coming out. There is about the space tourist story. There is, yeah. Um it's a woman from a Hebrew college got really inspired by dr Hoffman, the astronaut who took its story. And so um it's coming out um soon. And also

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we have um one of the Westminster trust holocaust girls also from um as it's called in check um because they don't like, you know, they're no longer part of the Austrian empire. Uh Good luck to my staff transcribing that one. Uh you can look it up.

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Uh um and we have a wall in front of our facade in front of our show that kind of matches the synagogue and the Czech Republic. And actually that synagogue when I was on my sabbatical last summer, I want to talk now Rabbi about coming out

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to your congregation, about your sexual orientation. I think it was in in 2015. Can you tell us about that what what that was like? Sure. Um it was scary. So first let me give a little bit of background. So um I came out to myself Um

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it was a slow process. I hadn't fully embraced coming out to myself until a couple of years um before 2015, I've been questioning for many years um and I was working with like a therapist and kind of doing the internal work to be okay when I

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applied to rabbinical school, you could not be openly gay and ordained as a conservative rabbi. So that kind of motivated me to kind of not really fully explore my ideas, like I'd like to use the expression that is using the tone not exactly this, but the

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los let it not even come to your mind. So it didn't even, I didn't even allow the thought that I might be gay to enter my mind during college where I could have had a lot more exploration um and the more kind of normative process for

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a lot of people for coming out and exploring their sexuality. So I just thought like I'll find someone in, I was focused on the goal of going to Rabbinical school because to answer the earlier question right, when I decided to become a rabbi, I think this

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is important to kind of know, so I'm gonna answer that a little bit if that's okay. Um so while I said like, you know what I would always say to people when I said I was a jewish studies major in college is always joke to go,

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well, I could always talk about rabbi, right, because that's what people ask, What can you do with the jewish studies degree so that I could always become a rabbi. Then my sophomore year of college, I began thinking much more seriously, like, oh I would like to

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become a rabbi and I had gone from being reforms associated with forms and I got in college, I became more observant and learned about the ideology of conservative Judaism and very much chose actively became a conservative, especially after loading the history of Zacharias frankel school of

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thought of positive historical Judaism that drove me to like identifying very strong conservative Judaism. So I chose that and then my year, the summer after my sophomore year, I did a program called Reshma, which was an egalitarian, achieve a study program at camp fremont California, um

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that dan graybeard started and that was my first time, living fully jewish li like diving three times a day, having a bad week. And while there one afternoon while seeing the whole camp studying the mood after before said Ashley sheet, I resolved to God that what

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I wanted to do with my life was keep this going. But this being jewish continuity and the way that I believed I could best do that was by becoming a rabbi. So I kind of resolved there, that's really what I wanted to do. And so come

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after the summer of my sophomore year of college, I really wanted to become a rabbi. So that was like my main focus. So with that, like I knew that you couldn't be gay and be a conservative rabbi, at least you couldn't be openly gay and be

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a conservative rabbi. So I didn't really let it um kind of enter my mind come my Mckinney year, I had a roommate who was an ed student who was gay, who at first didn't come out to me, came into my room mates I heard and I

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kind of said something to him and I heard he came out to me and I I met with him privately and told him about how I was questioning and opened up myself about the fact that I was questioning my sexuality, he kind of gave me some

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support and I began wrestling with that. So that's when I first identified that I might be questioning. I don't know, it was very confusing feelings for me, but I didn't. So, so when I was at JTS, um uh I started in year Maquina, which is kind

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of like a year zero. The joke we would say is kind of like kindergarten through fifth grade Rabbinical school Rabbinical school is traditionally a five year program at JTS, but some people who didn't have a strong kind of text background. Um like I hadn't really studied

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other than I hadn't studied intensely Tolman in like the original. So this uh intensive kind of year gave me the skills to kind of catch up. So I did Rabbinical school in six years as opposed to five years. So um 12345. So this questioning is the

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very start more or less of your Yes. But while I was doing it is had to be very quiet about it because um for example, in my year even there was a student who decided she couldn't be in the closet anymore and she said something to

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the dean and she was asked to leave the Rabbinical school and she was a brilliant woman, would have been would have been a great conservative rabbi, but couldn't be. Um and so it was very much a don't ask don't tell kind of policy. So questions like

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conversations about this were held very hushed and I started JTS in the fall of 2004, we're not talking ancient history, like, you know, it's not like, oh this was like the seventies, No, this is like 2004. Um so I couldn't really kind of deal with it.

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So at the same time I thought, so I actually was dating a woman for part of the time, I was in Rabbinical school during my year one, I dated a woman in um you know, it obviously didn't work out partly because like I wasn't get internally

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acknowledging it, but it's because I was gay. Uh, and so I was wrestling with it, but at the same time I really wanted to be a rabbi, so I couldn't have it. So I'd have some quiet conversations with people as I was questioning and because I

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was questioning and wanting to be wishy washy about it, like it was this hard thing if I didn't know how to, to stand, luckily with time I came to the point of where actually while I was living in Houston, I had a really good therapist, jewish

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family services who listened was really encouraging to me. Um, who helped me work through. Um, really nice thing is that she was actually from, which is actually a really powerful thing. So she understood about like the religious wrestling that I had. Um, and she encouraged me

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to go to a um, coming out support group at the Montrose Center, which I did. Um, and that group really helped give me the strength to kind of be okay with myself. And also like I come out to my parents and took some time for them

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to understand my dad accepted immediately and my mom, it was a little bit longer of a process. Um, it's funny the main time when I think my mom finally got it and knew that it wasn't just a phase was when I told her I was going

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to come out to my congregation. So now let me talk about how it came out to my congregation. So first I have to share credit of people that inspired me. Um uh Rabbi um That was last name Gil, He was the rabbi at Addis in D.

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C. Steinhoff. Rabbi Jill Stein Lof came out around high holidays of 2014 Just for high holiday in 2014. Um because he admitted that he was getting a divorce because he was gay and it was really big news and like um I think it was someone from

00:24:27.380 - 00:24:45.970

harper's weekly or something like that like or there was a really nice kind of columnist who talked about his rabbi and it's coming out and really nice things but Gil Stein left coming out inspired me to tell my synagogue president and I had a great synagogue

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president at the time. All of my synagogue events have been wonderful, but one that I had a particularly strong affinity to like we clicked with each other on a very deep level. Um And and Perlmutter is her name. Um and I asked her for a private

00:25:02.060 - 00:25:15.540

conversation and I told her that I was gay and said oh thank God I thought you were gonna tell me you had some terrible disease because of the seriousness in which I had like I have like a light kind of friendliness kind of there and she

00:25:15.540 - 00:25:29.890

could see the real seriousness of like what I was telling her and um she made an incredible offer to me, She said like look at that time. I was gonna wait until just before the holidays to tell the congregation. And she was in her second year

00:25:29.890 - 00:25:40.500

of her presidency which had been her final year and she said look if you want me to be president for when you tell the congregation even I don't want to extend my presidency a third year for you if that's really what you want to help support

00:25:40.500 - 00:25:59.050

you for this. Which was a really nice thing because like being a senator, the president is not an easy task uh which I remember. And then I went to the first and last conference of nezarim for um gay clergy, Can you explain what that is? Yes.

00:25:59.060 - 00:26:23.670

So is a, well it was a jewish organization dealing kind of with um L. G. B. T. I. Q. Q. Issues, lesbian gay, bisexual, transgender intersex queer and questioning. Um and so they decided to have a conference for uh jewish um queer clergy. It was at

00:26:23.680 - 00:26:42.520

um in san Francisco and I remember hearing about it and I wrote to them and said hey I'm still in the closet, can I come to this? And they said yes. And so I went to that conference and it was very very powerful for me. It

00:26:42.520 - 00:26:52.690

was interesting. I was like the only person at the conference, I think that was still in the closet. Everyone else had been out. And it was interesting because I like said really carefully like, you know, I don't want to have my picture taken or anything like

00:26:52.690 - 00:27:07.220

that. And I remember some kind of things are a little embarrassing. It's like first day I'm unwrapping, I'm wrapping up my tefillin and I see a camera lens point, oh you were a blur. You weren't like, I'm literally the only person at this entire conference that

00:27:07.230 - 00:27:24.190

I don't want my picture taken. I'm and I was like really frustrated. And also they had posted the schedule. I lead Minka one day they posted the schedule on the website and one of my people who I went to JTS with Michael bucky l um he's

00:27:24.190 - 00:27:41.300

a rabbi in ST louis. He was one of the first trans rabbis to come out of the seminary um said uh you know, they posted and I like went to like the director and I'm like, hey, I'm the one who wrote you ahead of time. I

00:27:41.300 - 00:27:53.020

don't want to. So then they took it down. I'm like literally like I'm the only person, this is my first time. I was purposely evasive to people of like I said, I was going to the area that kind of let it imply that I was going

00:27:53.020 - 00:28:06.640

to go visit my family for vacation. I didn't even say conference because I didn't want someone to look conference san Francisco and like, which is like paranoid because like who's going to really do it. But I was still very much in the closet, very scary and

00:28:06.640 - 00:28:21.950

you're you're the rabbi of a small congregation in texas, in texas and like my feeling was like it's texas even though at the time I also knew Houston was the city that had uh parker the first, you know major large city to have an openly gay

00:28:21.950 - 00:28:41.050

mayor, let alone have one that was term limited out right? It wasn't that she was because she was gay, it's that she couldn't serve as mary anymore because of term limits. Um so uh but I was very scared but while at this conference um remember that

00:28:41.060 - 00:28:58.680

there was a presentation, one of the seminars of talking about the history of kind of queer prayer books and queer liturgy and there was this prayer that I think was a reworking of like a Jack Kramer prayer but kind of talked about um struggling cause it

00:28:58.680 - 00:29:13.380

was like from an original prayer book of cBS. D congregation Torah but from like the seventies when it was much more male kind of this underground kind of school but it was just reworked kind of peace from like a high holiday liturgy but of like knowing

00:29:13.380 - 00:29:27.640

our true self and it resonated like deep in my soul and I literally just sat on the pew congregation starts to have tears pouring out of my eyes. It was one of the most profound like kind of prayer experiences I ever had, I literally couldn't like

00:29:27.640 - 00:29:44.700

move for like almost five minutes or so, at least that's what it felt like. I don't remember exactly, but it was very, very moving. So I came back from this conference and I met with my president again and I said, I think I need to move

00:29:44.700 - 00:30:00.180

up when I tell the congregation, she said, I knew this was gonna happen. Uh and I decided that I was going to tell them um the way we both decided, the way I was gonna tell it is, I wasn't going to do like a big announcement

00:30:00.190 - 00:30:17.530

like Rabbi stein left in because it wasn't necessary, right? I'm not getting divorced. So it's not like a big kind of, there's not a big change. So the way I decided to do it is I was going to come out to the board of directors, let

00:30:17.530 - 00:30:31.960

people have their kind of questions and then we kind of go from there And I went to the board directors and I can later give the words of this, I have the file saved on my computer so I can print it out and give it to

00:30:31.960 - 00:30:52.420

you for the archive is I gave a little 32nd speech of coming out to my congregation and um Let me just say that I spent more time on that 32nd speech than I did on my high holiday sermons and my high holiday sermons. I write out

00:30:52.420 - 00:31:09.740

every word, other sermons, not necessarily. Um but my holiday sermons, I go word for word. And I spent more time and energy on trying to formulate those 30 seconds, maybe it was two minutes. I don't know, but I really felt really short. It was like a

00:31:09.740 - 00:31:38.970

paragraph like this big double spaced. Um but um um the feeling was one of love and acceptance. Um, I still remember um one of my members um, glen Gladstone of like just like the love she kind of expect. I can't remember the words exactly right now.

00:31:38.980 - 00:31:52.470

But it was just like this thing of like your like families and we just love you and accept you want all the best for you. It was really, really positive. I remember one of the strange reactions happen later on. Um person is currently the vice president

00:31:52.470 - 00:32:07.240

of congregation howard wallpaper um who uses humor to kind of express deep support came to he said, he said Rabbi, I think it's important. I think I need to make an announcement to have a meeting to tell the congregation that I'm heterosexual, which is very funny

00:32:07.240 - 00:32:24.060

to me because his whole thing is, which was saying of the ridiculousness that I had to like hold a special meeting of the board to tell this. Um personal later became who was my immediate past president. Uh he anticipated from like, he saw the clues from

00:32:24.060 - 00:32:35.810

like what might happen uh that he said to like the president, my creation and it's like, it will be interesting to see what comes out at the meeting. Um because we said this thing of like that there's a meeting that asked me here, it's gonna be

00:32:35.820 - 00:32:52.760

confidential like to come to this meeting. Um because I don't want to put anything advanced, you know, to it, but he figured it out. He's a sharp guy. Um but universally um everyone except there may be a couple of people who it was not so well

00:32:52.760 - 00:33:15.550

received by. Um but maybe that was like two or three families max. Um and people were really accepting. I remember I was concerned there was a family that older family, more politically conservative uh native houstonians. Uh you know, lived through kind of segregation era. Um that's

00:33:15.550 - 00:33:30.530

kind of worried. And I said to him, Rabbi, you were there for me when I uh when I needed, when I had trouble. I don't care what you do in your bedroom and it was kind of universal because what I did is after I came out

00:33:30.530 - 00:33:46.580

to the board and the took a couple of questions and then the board, then the board went discussion. I left, went home. Um One of my members gave me a rainbow butterfly cookie from three brothers. That was a gift to give me beforehand that I went

00:33:46.580 - 00:33:58.970

and a uh that would be an appropriate gift because there are a few people I told in the congregation that's kind of close to that I knew kind of their views already that new already ahead of time of what I was struggling with. But this was

00:33:58.970 - 00:34:11.380

the scene where it's gonna come out. And we also knew that you know a shul you know if you wanna you know, let anyone know tell someone on the on the board of the synagogue a secret and then everyone will know, right? That's that's that's the

00:34:11.380 - 00:34:32.730

best way to inform everyone. Um We figured that the natural spread would be the best way. Oh I was gonna say what what about to your rabbinic colleagues? Were there any similar conversations of that that you remember? I don't actually remember other than people being kind

00:34:32.730 - 00:34:47.600

of supportive. I don't remember of like how it came out. I think I just started kind of talking and being more open about it and it was just kind of accepted. I think some people were surprised at times and then it's kind of you know, let

00:34:47.600 - 00:35:03.070

it kind of naturally filter. Um And I think I kind of shared it with like some of the things for um kind of pride events um etcetera. Um So I will say one thing in terms of the lead up to it, I was really scared and

00:35:03.070 - 00:35:16.460

like my mother really didn't want me telling the congregation because she thought for sure I'd be rejected and um it would be the end of my job and I was actually also prepared for that. Like that was a eventuality that I prepared for it. It's like

00:35:16.470 - 00:35:34.380

I was prepared to lose my job because, you know, even if we did have protection, which you don't in texas for sexual orientation, if we did, religious organizations are exempt from such nondiscrimination laws, particularly for clergy. So even in California, like church could decide to fire,

00:35:34.390 - 00:35:52.330

um, uh, pastor because they're gay, uh, even in places that do have protection by against discrimination by sexual orientation because of religious freedom. Um, so I was prepared to lose my job, but I said to myself, well, even if I lose my job, I'd rather be

00:35:52.340 - 00:36:14.630

out than they're not able to do it. Um, and then my first time preaching to my congregation and mentioned that was gay from the bima was, um, following the pulse, um, attack um, in Orlando. And I gave a Torah that, um, not just by hearing this

00:36:14.630 - 00:36:31.560

text, but I said about as a gay man, um, of what it affected. Um, but I don't know if all my colleagues, I think most of my colleagues know, especially now I've talked about it more and more, but I never made a big public announcement. However,

00:36:32.970 - 00:36:54.260

I do make a point nowadays to usually, generally, especially when I'm in public to wear some kind of rainbow coupon most of the time as kind of a way of kind of indicating, um, kind of pride and, um, assessment. So that's why I was very excited

00:36:54.260 - 00:37:13.880

when I was able to get sorry not to talk over you. Have you had any opportunity to um to to be a role model either to colleagues or just to anyone else in the jewish community who is finding they're finding their place in terms of sexual

00:37:13.880 - 00:37:39.040

orientation given your story. So I have in some ways, um one is two members of my own congregation who have um had issues with kind of coming to terms with sexual orientation. Um Also, some people have chosen to um choose Judaism, felt comfortable coming to me

00:37:39.050 - 00:37:53.740

because I was a gay rabbi. And so like I told one person like, you know that because I'm very open about it because I don't want someone who's uncomfortable trying to convert and then saying, oh no, I can't handle that, but others say, oh no, that's

00:37:53.740 - 00:38:07.950

actually one thing I really like about cause I feel safe because you're not going to reject me for being gay. Um and I can also talk about how to deal with, like, the feelings and emotions of being gay um even before I came out though, um

00:38:07.960 - 00:38:26.090

I think because I had my own issues and acceptance, I had a person who was dealing with some gender identity issues who at that time was identifying um as as female, who got a sense of affirmation from me um that really helped them and their parents

00:38:26.090 - 00:38:43.180

later told me of how affirming that was for their child um who was in high school and dealing with some gender identity issues and I think my own story about being a gay rabbi makes me very cognizant of those um on the periphery. Um and making

00:38:43.180 - 00:39:02.660

sure that there's a sense of inclusion. So I will say that I think on a whole Houston does a really good job of um affirming at least the jewish community in Houston of affirming people of um the full spectrum of sexual orientation and gender identity. Mhm.

00:39:03.250 - 00:39:22.530

That's yeah, that's that's great to hear and that's really important. Um I wanna I wanna talk now about the contemporary moment that we're living in in May of 2020. Um take us back just a couple of months to um late February early March. When when did

00:39:22.530 - 00:39:47.630

your congregations start to have conversations about how to respond to the coronavirus pandemic. And what were some of the really conversations um were happening um with the Houston Rabbinical Association of which organization of which you are president? Yeah. So currently I'm the president Hr A I'll

00:39:47.630 - 00:40:05.310

say that I've had an interesting tenure as president of the HR A near the beginning of my tenure of President Tiara is when the Pittsburgh attacks happened. So I got to help coordinate the citywide Vigil in a day that we had uh and then we had

00:40:05.450 - 00:40:30.440

away and then the end of my presidency. I thought well now it's an extended year was uh with the COVID-19 crisis. So um the last thing that we did a major thing in my shul was um we had um uh forum carnival and poor um services.

00:40:30.450 - 00:40:46.420

Um that was the last major gathering that we had at our synagogue and we began talking a little before that, but okay. It seems to be okay right now and so no one would get really concerned. But as things um began ratcheting up like right after

00:40:46.430 - 00:41:08.510

poor. Um um that's when I got notifications of some calls through interfaith ministries and the Greater Houston partnership. Um And upon being on those calls, we convened uh an immediate and immediate meeting of the H. R. A. And we did a video call. Um and that's

00:41:08.510 - 00:41:22.710

where we all decided different things. That was when I was still on the fence for army whether we were gonna open or close and most people were, we met on a thursday and then friday was when the decision was happening. Um and basically us through the

00:41:22.710 - 00:41:41.900

day friday, a lot of us began saying, you know, we're gonna close, we're gonna close. Um I think that was the last service that um Emanuel had and the last service that um H. E. R. J. Had and one of the last services that Sharon had

00:41:41.910 - 00:42:02.950

um as we all kind of made our decisions. Um and I talked with my creation, we decided you know what we're going to. Um we're gonna I have uh we're gonna do just a virtual service and that's when I started doing like bought a zoom account

00:42:02.960 - 00:42:26.420

and began doing services by by zoom starting on that shabbat. Um And the following week we had uh Bar mitzvah virtually with to um and it might have been two or three weeks after, like, I don't remember any time, it's kind of all blended together. Um

00:42:27.330 - 00:42:57.230

And it's been uh challenging and um but the idea really that comes to mind is that is the overarching principle and that overrides everything else. Um The H. R. A. Which normally meets monthly has been meeting weekly. Generally we skipped a week for um and then

00:42:57.230 - 00:43:20.580

met on and we're skipping this week because of but um we'd otherwise since the crisis beginning basically meeting every week virtually. Um and uh it's really been um like there's these like pluses and minuses. So one we're getting a lot more membership participation from some people

00:43:20.590 - 00:43:41.680

who normally couldn't make it to meetings because of traffic right? Um Like sometimes our colleagues up in the Woodlands would have a harder time sometimes making it to meetings. Um But people have been on more. Um but uh we are doing kind of two pronged kind

00:43:41.680 - 00:44:02.740

of things of what the HR is doing. One we're giving to each other strength to each other. Um support and listening and people can um give voice and concerns to their worries and trepidations and also we're sharing best practices and our strategies and plans. Um one

00:44:02.740 - 00:44:19.760

thing that the HR stands by is that we are not a regulatory body, we don't issue regulation. So we issued guidelines about life cycle events in terms of um, kind of funerary lifecycle events, which were guidelines. These weren't like regulations, but this is what we all

00:44:19.760 - 00:44:43.060

thought to do and everyone makes their own decisions. But we kind of spoke community of like working on these guidelines and affirming these guidelines of what we thought. So, for example, of initially we delayed uh advocated the delay of unveilings, um using the minimums for um

00:44:43.060 - 00:45:12.470

funerals and kind of doing them electronically and kind of maintaining policies. So there was a united front, um, excuse me, message, um, uh, which was part of the idea of um, we haven't, those things can be found um, on uh the Federation's website of the guidelines

00:45:12.470 - 00:45:28.350

and they were also reaffirmed. So, um and if you want, I can like forward it to you as well for the archive. I'd like to, I'd like to see those. That's one of the ways we've been doing. Mhm. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead, finish

00:45:28.350 - 00:45:53.810

your question. Well, I wanted to know, I mean, it's you've officiated at a, at a funeral, you know, in this time and you've done, you've done bar mitzvahs now over zoom, was there, I mean, technologically speaking, was there a learning curve at first. Oh yes, there

00:45:53.810 - 00:46:13.660

still is. Um so, uh the funeral was interesting. Um, and we've done several Shiva via zoom, which actually on one thing, which is nice is it enables people to come to from all over the country, which is a nice thing. Um, but for example, the funeral,

00:46:14.660 - 00:46:37.940

what I did is, uh, one I'm, I held that, uh, there's a Tuva of the conservative movement that talks about it. But I counted, I constitute a minion, um, counting people where I'm more lenient than others, counting people on facebook live who are watching or, and,

00:46:37.940 - 00:46:58.950

or people who are on zoom. I'm counting them help constituted mignon. So in order to get, so I knew that I had, Yes. So I had like 20 people including I knew at least kind of whom were jews were watching. Um, the, uh, the funeral and

00:46:58.950 - 00:47:15.180

with one of the two people, the two sons of the, of the deceased. Um, and the, and the funeral director who was jewish and myself that I know that he had a minion. So we did codfish and for the funeral, I would say the hardest thing

00:47:15.180 - 00:47:27.870

for me for the funeral was that we couldn't use a shovel to put, usually I put more soil over the casket before the concrete liner gets placed and said this was just some handfuls of sand that got put over the casket, which was really hard for

00:47:27.870 - 00:47:51.330

me. Um, but uh, that was like the difference that we do and then what we did is I did a visitation kind of zoom immediately after the funeral we're gonna gather later from, but the deceased family who couldn't travel, who were in new york area and

00:47:51.330 - 00:48:04.950

one in florida all came under the zoom and visited with members of congregation and had a chance to kind of do that function of Shiva where you kind of tell stories and visit and offer real comfort and remembrance. So we did that virtually. And so it

00:48:04.950 - 00:48:28.770

was different, right? You don't have the egg salad, but uh he's still kind of had a chance to kind of hear the stories. And then we gathered for following um you know the bar mitzvahs just just wanna point here before we talk about bar mitzvahs. So

00:48:28.780 - 00:48:44.790

um it sounds like, I mean Shiva is just it's so integral to the jewish morning practice and the idea that we don't um that we don't leave the mourner fully alone. And I think it's really insightful that, you know, technology allows for this new kind of

00:48:44.790 - 00:49:01.750

virtual Shiva where you can be anywhere in the world and you can participate in that kind of um comforting the mourner and gathering together. I wonder if you think, you know, post post pandemic, whenever that's gonna be and we don't know do you think any of

00:49:01.750 - 00:49:27.790

these um new ways of doing Judaism are gonna are gonna continue or too soon to say gonna continue. So I think I think well first of all I think um because we'll still be through the pandemic as I think that like one of the things that

00:49:27.790 - 00:49:44.260

we talked about at army, like we used to not stream services. Um but we know that people aren't gonna feel comfortable even when we decide to reopen to come until there's like an established vaccine and its widespread and there's herd immunity. Um they're not gonna feel

00:49:44.260 - 00:50:03.520

comfortable coming to school. So we want people to still be able to be present. So we're gonna offer those things I think going forward. Um I think for the ability of perhaps supplementing in person is a very high likelihood. I think that for spectacularly for like

00:50:03.520 - 00:50:21.130

life cycle events like funerals um that things that don't happen on Shabbat, particularly like the issue is a harder thing to kind of deal with electrically right now. We're functioning in my actual under the principle of so you know, it's in critical timing that we have

00:50:21.130 - 00:50:41.540

it. Um That's what I'm saying. It's is this principle in halacha that um in emergency situations you're allowed certain leniency ease. So relying on like the Dominion and things like that, that's relying on a leniency in emergency situations that you may not be able to rely

00:50:41.540 - 00:51:00.850

on that same leniency in a normative situation. Um So that that permissibility might not be there, but we'll see how adapts and changes that might be different opinions, but right now um it's something to think about. Um but particularly for years where it doesn't really affect

00:51:00.850 - 00:51:19.440

like say for a funeral, I think absolutely people will utilize this technology because it affords people particularly like the home bound and something like that where you have leniency has been sick um to be able to participate. Um and I think that's a beautiful thing. Um

00:51:19.450 - 00:51:32.110

you know, you kind of already had it where sometimes people are holding the phone for facebook for a wedding or something like that, but I think that will come more common. Um But I will say like at the same time I want people to, you know

00:51:32.110 - 00:51:48.460

know about being present. There's a different kind of way. It's not the same thing like you and I talking right now we're talking face to face, but we're not talking face to face. Um and it's not quite the same. Um and it's not just because you

00:51:48.460 - 00:52:01.420

can't tell if the person is wearing pants. Um It's That there's a lack of the physicality and there's so much that can also be expressed by touch that I think we've lost, but I also think it's something that we also lost to, like I have a

00:52:01.420 - 00:52:20.170

feeling we will not go back to shaking hands as much as we used to and that's really hard for me as you can ask my congregation, I'm well known for, like I shake hands like before Corona, I would shake everyone's hands 2-3 times the service. Um

00:52:20.180 - 00:52:40.470

and uh that's probably not gonna happen anymore. Um and that's kind of sad. Um and the lack of physicality is something that's very hard. Yeah, and there's, and there's, you know, parts that are integral to the normal shabbat, like parading the Torah around the, you know

00:52:40.480 - 00:53:03.760

room and everybody is, is kissing it. So yeah, that's that's hard. You know, some, so those things aren't like when we talk, go ahead. You know, some, some congregations are very large, they have multiple clergy, they have a lot of staff, they have a program director,

00:53:03.760 - 00:53:23.000

they have a cantor, they have, you know, four rabbis who can kind of swap in and out small congregations, you know. No, it's it's just you, so how are you, what what what ways are you, what programs or services are you developing to try to keep

00:53:23.000 - 00:53:46.950

members engaged and create that sense of virtual community. So one thing that I've done, so the 1st 9.5 years of my congregational rabbinate, I did not lead weekday services except for the occasional Shiva minion. I didn't lead weekday services since we went into a stay at

00:53:46.950 - 00:54:11.680

home order, I've been leading services basically three times a day. Um and uh I've been intentional about that, even though we don't always get a minion. Um but is with this, we need to create ways of more space for making community. So I've been beating um

00:54:11.690 - 00:54:32.470

to really kind of help make the sense of community and have some people have been coming to almost every service. Um and uh it's it's a powerful kind of thing, it's something that's that's different, that's happened. Um and my show uh also uh Rabbi, any Belford,

00:54:32.470 - 00:54:47.430

who's at Temple Sinai, we do a lot of things together because we're both over in West Houston. Um we've been doing we call a Zishe, Which is a zum Tisch um Tuesdays at noon doing a lunch and learn. We're both kind of teach something like kind

00:54:47.430 - 00:55:07.440

of a text that we want to use. Um you know, tell me to teaching or something, um just like a 12-1, like Zoom class, but it's a nice little thing that we've been doing together um to kind of help offer programming for everyone on Tuesday. So

00:55:07.450 - 00:55:26.190

it's that's among the things that we're doing. Um do you want me to talk a little bit about the bar mitzvahs and that technological stuff. Yeah. Yeah, please do because I I so watching uh was it for Fernando's bar mitzvah Fernando? Yeah, I had a chance

00:55:26.190 - 00:55:48.510

to watch a Yeah, so the first part that we did was um David paul, um and that one uh his family, they live in college station. Um and so the family has access to the sanctuary at a and M Hillel. So then one day and um

00:55:48.510 - 00:56:02.690

Hillel, but we considered the minion from it. So he was still able to read from the Torah and he led services from there for the congregation and he read from the Torah and that was our first kind of time. We're still figuring out things for Fernando

00:56:02.780 - 00:56:20.270

gave the family the, sorry, you were at our army and they were at a mm. They were I was I was I was that they were at A and M. They were am Hillel and other members of the congregation were in their homes. Okay. Got it.

00:56:20.840 - 00:56:41.710

Got it interesting. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, so like they and they and we did the service and so um it's actually very funny is that David's father thought like you never wanted to do the generation to generation kind of passed, but he still passed the

00:56:41.710 - 00:57:00.520

torch to his son because the ark and gave it to his son. So I was like, I got what, but that price should take out. Um but uh for Fernando, um at first I thought, oh well maybe by May because this was things will be different,

00:57:00.530 - 00:57:17.050

right? That's in, you know, in early March we thought, oh, in two months it's gonna be fine. Um but it wasn't as we know um so, well I reached out to the family what they want to do, I said, if you want you can reschedule it,

00:57:17.060 - 00:57:29.790

you can even reschedule it keeping the same muffed here and Hofstra. Like I learned from Rabbi gellman of a nice leaning opinion about how to do that. And so I was like, look, you can even, so because he's already learned his era, they wouldn't have to

00:57:29.790 - 00:57:52.550

relearn it. Um, but uh, Fernando really wanted to keep the same date. So we went ahead with it, that's what the family wanted to do. And uh, what we did is we decided that the safety precautions because it's just one household and me is that we

00:57:52.550 - 00:58:10.710

would all be masked. Um, and I would be socially distant from them the whole time. Um, so I'd be six ft away. So I stood at my pulpit and uh Fernando is a reading table. Um, we allowed him to be unmasked so he could be heard.

00:58:10.720 - 00:58:25.030

Um, but he wasn't like speaking in like my path. Um, and I had their family to take out the Torah and handle the Torah and follow along from the, because that's how we've been doing the Torah reading is that someone's been following along with the Torah.

00:58:25.040 - 00:58:43.660

Usually it's been me, but in this case it was Fernando's uh um older brother Jonathan was following along the Torah as other people read and we have people reading from Hamish. Um, normally speaking what we do is we just say the blessing Torah and then have

00:58:43.660 - 00:58:57.200

people read while following along in the Torah, but I wanted to be special. So what we did is we, I called because the first Aliyah was being read by Jonathan. So I called um Fernando's parents for naturally and they said the blessings and we read the

00:58:57.200 - 00:59:11.180

first seven elio in kind of succession and then they said the closing braca. But since it was actually the first time was actually read from the Torah, I felt okay doing that and then we did the must here and I called up Fernando and he read

00:59:11.180 - 00:59:27.630

the must hear from the scroll. So I was able to have that same kind of experience um while people did and then he gave his and he did his half tra um the first two coordinates Candy like made a bag of candy earlier that I passed

00:59:27.630 - 00:59:45.050

out to his family. So we're still able to shower him with candy. Um and uh it was a nice thing and like we did the blessings the way you know, kind of what happened. Um it wasn't quite the same but it was very similar and there

00:59:45.050 - 01:00:01.110

were a lot of people that were on um I had uh people who helped coordinate the zoom who I made co hosts because there's some active having to do with like spotlighting people particularly for when I was talking. Um so they wouldn't have feedback. We had

01:00:01.110 - 01:00:13.930

multiple devices, three devices set up in the congregation as I had my laptop, which we now need to, I need to get an external camera for because as you saw from the video that I get washed out by the bright light of the window near my

01:00:13.930 - 01:00:30.820

pulpit of the sun, um all these things my my ipad talking to from now on was was was was on the bima and in a a tripod that I had bought that could hold my cell phone was holding my cell phone that was was broadcasting to

01:00:30.820 - 01:00:46.130

facebook live. Um so that was actually basic live, I was miked, so I was using the shul sound system, so that would be picked up by the speaker on the cell phone and on the ipad. But because of that, because I only because I didn't connect

01:00:46.130 - 01:01:04.610

my my uh laptop to sound, I dialed in for sound and didn't actually call in so that there would be no feedback from my computer um that uh the zoom wanted to like always have the camera of the one that was on the bima because that

01:01:04.610 - 01:01:21.540

was the one where the sound was coming from, because that was the active speaker. So um one of my members who was helping co host the zoom would actively spotlight me so that I could do it, so I wouldn't have to focus on manipulating zoom and

01:01:21.540 - 01:01:36.400

lead a service and coordinate, so that's part of the team that takes place. And also we had another member who was doing a share screen to let people follow along with the seed or who didn't have a seed or um using PDFs, it's a complicated kind

01:01:36.400 - 01:01:53.830

of procedure Um so I've learned a lot about zoom um how to mute people, the idea of spotlighting like different kinds of things. Um now like facebook live is now adding things that are like zoom like features which are like great more things I have to

01:01:53.830 - 01:02:12.420

learn um and we have to figure out all these different technologies and um it's issues and kind of how to navigate it, but but on the bright side is also, it's a way of like kind of sharing Torah and spreading Torah, like more broadly, like I've

01:02:12.420 - 01:02:28.750

had people who've been watching my services, I got contacted by a woman in like Nigeria um asking a question about like how to do something and seeking my advice. Like, so you know, that's when you put things out on the web, it has very far reaching.

01:02:31.000 - 01:02:48.120

That's incredible. I mean this is a really, I think um that was a great play by play of of of how you make a bar mitzvah happen, you know, during, during a pandemic and and with all these different technologies kind of working together and different members

01:02:48.120 - 01:03:03.740

of the community and the family and you all have to coordinate to make it to make it happen. I mean what, what for you? Let me show you one other thing, Let me so one thing, so one of our members, one of our older members who

01:03:03.740 - 01:03:17.180

at first like had issues kind of like was hesitant about joining the zoom and who the family really wanted to like read Torah. He's um, whenever one of our oldest male members and one of our regulatory readers kind of like he's one of the team of

01:03:17.180 - 01:03:34.760

the congregation and well beloved. Um, and dr Sheldon Evans, um, Shelly uh, is so he's an expert or he, he's great to have because basically any time you need something picked up, he can like usually pick up any Aaliyah like minutes before and do it near

01:03:34.760 - 01:03:47.270

flawlessly. So he's a great asset, but he was having some hesitancy at first with zoom and I kind of pushed him a little bit. I said, oh, I don't have a mic on my computer so he could watch. But he couldn't, I said, well, you know,

01:03:47.270 - 01:03:59.700

you can um, dial in for the audio and then you can be heard. And so now that's what he's been doing. So, you know, he doesn't have a camera that go on, he logs onto his computer, but then dials in for the audio and he was

01:03:59.700 - 01:04:14.310

able to read for the bar mitzvah. But the family really wanted, they were like the first person they said, oh, we really want him to read for the bar mitzvah. Um, but using the different technology that zoom has, that, you don't have to have a mic

01:04:14.320 - 01:04:27.820

on your computer, but you could use the phone audio in and it's one of things I've been trying to reach to some, not as technologically savvy or even savvy, but just, we don't have the means. Some older members of like encouraging them to use the phone

01:04:27.830 - 01:04:48.130

um as a way to kind of connect and be heard, which is a nice thing, so interesting, so in a way, you know, one of the dimensions of pastoral care while this is going on particularly with with older members is encouraging them and helping them through

01:04:48.130 - 01:05:10.180

all of this technology. Um yes, absolutely, I've been doing text support, gotten pretty good at like explaining how to do zoom, how to, how to explain about like switch camera, like there's that great video that people have been shared on facebook of the Israeli comedian of

01:05:10.180 - 01:05:27.640

like managed uh talking to his mother about how to use uh how to use zoom, um it hit a little close to home for me um but uh yes, it's uh it's a um it is one of those interesting kind of things, but uh that patients,

01:05:27.640 - 01:05:41.330

but also um sometimes being dogged of encouraging people and like one of my members, she came up and she eventually came to one of my lunch and learns which I also do once a month because I kept kind of festering her in a nice way, but

01:05:41.330 - 01:05:56.510

like, you know, it's like my dog determination finally encouraged given and try it and then she was really thankful that she did it because she missed seeing people. So um yeah, so that's absolutely one of those things is encouraging people to kind of go out of

01:05:56.510 - 01:06:11.310

their comfort zone and try it and kind of help tell them or if they have like smartphones try to explain, oh no, you do have this ability to do it on your phone, you can do this. What have you, what have you learned just a second.

01:06:11.310 - 01:06:28.240

Let me just because we're gonna run out of time. What have you, what have you learned either about, about yourself or something? You you you learned about Judaism or or being a rabbi that that you didn't know before all this started some kind of insight that

01:06:28.240 - 01:06:49.350

has um revealed itself to you while you've been forced to adapt in all these different ways in the last couple of months. So I think one of the things that really hit home is the resiliency of the jewish people that really like we can survive all

01:06:49.350 - 01:07:07.010

different things. Um and I'll give and also like the eternal truthfulness of the Torah and I'll explain what I mean by that. Um I've been struck every week as I've been giving my Torah of how like that week's Porsche speaks so well to the incidence of

01:07:07.010 - 01:07:23.820

like living with the pandemic or kind of talking about different issues and I'm like, wait, what? Like this is something written, you know, thousands of years ago And like it really is very resident for our times and like understanding that she's in that 70 faces of

01:07:23.820 - 01:07:40.500

Torah all those different dimensions. I think that's really the inside of that. We are resilient and strong and also that there's eternal truths about our perseverance and about the importance of people and community and that flexibility that are inherent our tradition and that we can adapt

01:07:40.500 - 01:07:55.650

and that we will be stronger and I'm very confident that this too shall pass and that will be stronger, for it. wow, thank you so much, Rabbi. It's really been a pleasure to to speak with you and learn from you and thank you for all that

01:07:55.650 - 01:08:12.920

you and all your colleagues are doing during this difficult time to keep us all connected and engaged. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Sorry, that I spoke a little long. It's hard for Rabbi only speak for a little bit. No problem. Thank you.