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This is Poly MRE. Today is July 10th, 1969. The interviewee is Doctor Paul Pfeiffer. This is interview number 40. This is tape 17. We are in Doctor Pfeiffer's office now. Set the dial to zero. Yeah, I, I mean, maybe I need to get a little closer

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than I have sort of mumbling. But I guess you, why don't you just, uh, give me address for instance and I'll see how it registers here. You just your normal conversation. So, uh I, I just starting to correct myself when I felt testing.

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Uh, see what happens this time, see whether that fluorescent lamp caused the trouble check back now and see. Ok. All right. Uh We were just, uh, going over some of the things we're interested in saying that you felt it, people grow. Yeah, I, I think the,

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the really unusual factor in this was that uh, so many people found themselves in substantial agreement. Um The first point on which there was almost unanimous, a very unfortunate breach of confidence student committee had ignored as it appeared they had been, um, then when it was

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discovered by like younger students that the and no personal animosity toward him, just felt that he, the wise choice, the leadership here. Uh, th this raised a whole new dimension, bonds some students enough to recognize, you know, they weren't in a position to make any firsthand

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judgment. Um, ready to support this very sizable segment of the faculty felt that not only the manner but the man was big there. Yeah. First response, political shock. Sort of an, oh, no, it, it just can't be. Oh, I guess so, but the grapevine people had

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heard it on the radio, not one of them among one of the first to be informed. Um I was aware of course, strong the feeling which I share about. So I was not an impartial, I was asked to the student faculty committee to which a of

00:04:17.940 - 00:05:14.029

invited back. Incidentally, I consider myself a member of the faculty even though I was my primary relationship with will be the water, you know, whatever uh special assignments I take on. So um my identification tackle uh immediately after this uh meeting leave this included, they

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pressure maybe one or two others uh that your impressions of that knee, the affected head on the very well. By this time, of course, representatives of the board, Mr Allen and Mr Teague, that one acting Mr Lovett's absence enforced by the illness. Um These two gentlemen

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had already met earlier perhaps the previous day with faculty committee and there were some very spirited interchanges uh in in that meeting, in which um people look one another. Now the table and said what they thought, oh, this was pretty much that, which I was present.

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I took a backseat, uh, was an interested observer at this point. A number of students raised questions very pertinent and obviously embarrassing questions which were directed to the representative of the board. They express their, their feelings. So quite politely but uh quite emphatically serious damage to

00:07:01.660 - 00:07:56.850

the fabric of trust. For real. You get that they knew about it before decide they, they participated to a certain degree. Uh I presume to make it plain peers uh where they had, make sure that their feelings had been expressed. Oh, I'm sure they

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did. Well, f from, from uh some second hand reports I've had, they didn't say nearly as much at this meeting as they had at the earlier meeting. I mean, they've had, they've had their say, playing whatever, doing the uh um the meeting was occurred immediately before

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the faculty. The fact that didn't have committee of the whole, uh th this fact was known primary reason so that they can announce it to the student body to the faculty. I attended the uh doctor. Yeah, be the students. So I was interested in what they

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would do. I'd, I'd seen them operate uh in other tent situations. Um This was a tense three student represented then this Poly MRE today is July 10th, 1969. The interviewee is Doctor Paul Pfeiffer. This is interview number, uh, 40. This is tape 17. We

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are in Dr Piper's office now. Set the dial to zero. Yeah, I, I mean, maybe I need to get a little closer and I have a tendency sort of mumble, but I guess you do. Well, why don't you just, uh, give me address for instance and

00:10:29.719 - 00:11:05.830

I'll see how it registers here just in your normal conversation. So well, uh I, I just starting to correct myself when I said, but you in a look out and see pretty well testing, uh see what happens this time, see whether that fluorescent lamp caused the

00:11:05.840 - 00:11:25.340

trouble check back now and see. OK. All right. Uh We were just uh going over some of the things we're interested in getting from you in this uh in this interview, Doctor Pfeiffer. And you were um saying that you felt that um people were of one

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mind. Yeah, I, I think the, the really unusual factor in this was that uh so many people found themselves in substantial agreement. Um The, the, the first point on which there was almost unanimous agreement was that there had been a, a very unfortunate breach of confidence

00:11:50.080 - 00:12:18.849

and when the faculty student committee had ignored as it appeared, they had been um then when it was discovered by many, including some new faculty and certainly uh the younger students that um many faculty who had known with master and Well, even though they had no

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personal animosity toward him, just felt that he was not the wise choice for leadership here. Uh This raised a whole new dimension of response. Some students were wise enough to recognize that. Well, you know, they weren't in a position to uh uh make any firsthand judgment

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and yet they found themselves uh ready to support this very sizable segment of the faculty who felt that not only the manner but the man was, was a mistake. Oh yeah, you know, first response of course, was one of considerable shock, sort of an oh no,

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it, it just can't be. How did you get the news of this? Uh oh I guess uh ju just so by the grapevine, people had heard it on the radio and so on, I was not one of them among one of the first to be informed.

00:13:31.440 - 00:13:56.559

Um I was aware of course of uh strong feeling on the part of faculty and students uh feeling which I shared by the way. Uh So I was not an impartial observe it here. I was asked to the meeting of the student faculty committee to which

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a number of student leaders have been invited of us on the on the faculty. Incidentally, I consider myself a member of the faculty even though I was dean students. So my my primary relationship with the school has no will be uh the faculty member regardless of

00:14:23.000 - 00:15:01.179

what, you know, whatever uh special assignments I take on. So, um my identification was with the faculty and students at this point. Uh immediately after this uh meeting, joint meeting, student faculty committee group of student leaders. I believe this included college president, a Preston Press, your

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editor, maybe one or two others. Uh that your impression of that meeting uh of the affected head on the various people involved and what the dynamics of, you know, personal relations were observed. Well, by this time, of course, the uh representatives of the board, Mr Allen

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and Mr Teague, Mr Allen acting in, in Mr Lovett's uh absence enforced by an illness. These two gentlemen had already met earlier perhaps the previous day uh with the student faculty committee and uh I understand there were some very spirited interchanges uh in in that meeting

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in which um people looked one other night and pounded on the table and said what they thought, um this was pretty much the the tenor meeting that I which I was present. I took a backseat was an interested observer at this point. Um A number of

00:16:18.710 - 00:16:45.960

students raised questions uh very pertinent and obviously embarrassing questions which were directed to the representative of the board. Uh and they expressed their, their feelings so quite politely but quite emphatically that uh serious damage had been done to, to the fabric of trust that, you know,

00:16:45.969 - 00:17:12.670

makes a real community. So OK, this is me, it would have been new it would have been the first official announcement. College president to the president, a sweatshirt. But they knew about it before this. Yes. Um, did they participate very much in the discussions or was

00:17:12.680 - 00:17:39.319

it mainly the, uh, college presidential? They, they participated to a certain degree, uh, uh, I presume to make it plain to, to their peers, uh, where they had stood and make sure that they understood that their feelings had been expressed. Um oh, I'm sure they didn't.

00:17:41.380 - 00:18:02.349

Well from, from uh some second hand reports I've had uh they didn't say nearly as much at this meeting as they had at the earlier meeting. I mean, they've had, they've had their say proclaim where everyone uh stood. The uh um the meeting to which we're

00:18:02.359 - 00:18:26.790

referring occurred immediately before the, the faculty meeting in which an announcement was made to the faculty. The students student Association had called a mass meeting with, with the student body committee, the whole sort of thing. And uh th this fact was known. So uh the primary

00:18:26.800 - 00:18:50.270

reason for bringing the student leaders to the earlier meeting was so that they could announce it to the student body simultaneously. So to the faculty, I attended the uh the student meeting rather than the faculty meeting. I thought that being students maybe be with the students

00:18:50.670 - 00:19:21.630

besides, I was, I was interested in what they would do. I, I'd seen them operate in other tent situations and handle themselves in a very effective manner. Um This was a uh 10 of the meeting, the three student representatives on the student faculty committee spoke concerning

00:19:21.640 - 00:19:49.719

the, the uh the whole history of thing as, as they knew it, they spoke uh in a restrained but uh very emphatic way of their feeling of having been try to think of a polite word for it. But, oh, you know, I'm pretty well given the

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run around to say the least been kicked in the teeth. Um and indicated that there had been a uh although they were not voting members of this faculty committee, there were some little diplomatic delicacies there. They had been received by the faculty members as full and

00:20:11.130 - 00:20:41.930

effective members. Their views had uh and receive, they participated fully presumably, you know, the matter of formal voting had, had not been an issue at any point. So, uh they, they spoke with um real appreciation uh the way the faculty had brought them into the, the

00:20:41.939 - 00:21:06.339

process. II I don't know how much uh you want me to say about uh oh, what had happened in, in the student faculty committee because I'm sure this has been stated to you by members of that committee. Yes, we, we do have a pretty good uh

00:21:06.349 - 00:21:19.130

document of that I would be interested uh while we're still on this committee before we get too far away uh or, or this meeting and before we get too far away of the the, um, I'd be interested in your impressions about, uh, of the three figures

00:21:19.140 - 00:21:56.229

they buried Katherine George Forestall did, uh, any one of the three seem to have more effect on the student audience than others. I, uh, I think, uh, Barry probably does most effective speaker. Uh, Greg didn't seem to me to, uh, be too effective. Um, George spoke

00:21:59.329 - 00:22:26.410

in, in, in a very, uh, uh, intelligible and, and effective manner but, um, I think it was Barry who made the, the emotional impact. Uh She's one who has been, oh, very sensitive and a great many problems in one of our more activist students in a

00:22:26.420 - 00:22:56.300

way. Although, uh this past year, she certainly matured came to and appreciation of the possibilities of working within the system and so on. She and her husband both have been very much attracted to our activist group, some of whom became SDS but, um, and found themselves

00:22:56.310 - 00:23:24.650

increasingly at odds with regard to tactics and understanding what the situation is. But, but still, you know, in touch with, with a wide wide range of the student body, respected by those who didn't always agree with her. So that, uh, in, in some sense, uh I

00:23:24.660 - 00:23:55.920

would say she was the, the one who sort of cut caught fire with, with the students. Oh, this, this wasn't difficult to do anyone who knew what was doing and spoke up well received the, um, meeting at which uh Herbert Allen and gave the announcement that

00:23:55.930 - 00:24:18.650

you attended. Did you, do you recall any special impact that the student response had on these two? Well, it's difficult to tell they already knew they were hot water before, before then. Uh, they'd already been told. So, in the previous meeting, which I did not attend.

00:24:20.300 - 00:24:57.229

Oh, hi. Felt that Mr Allen was probably quite uncomfortable. I'm not sure about Mr Teague. He didn't say much. Mr Allen was a spokesman, so Mr K pretty well kept his feelings, uh, masked, I would guess. Um, well, II I just really wouldn't know how to

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evaluate it. I think that some impressions was made. Um, I am sure that there was um, real concern about the intensity of the student response. Uh the fact that the chemistry like, I mean, the uh physics amp theater, one of the a larger meeting places on

00:25:22.459 - 00:25:43.000

the campus was packed standing room only, uh, surely must have scared some members of the board. In fact, they were some concerns expressed by one of the members of the, I'm not sure which one. Now, one of the members of the a party that went to

00:25:43.010 - 00:26:09.380

uh Chattanooga that night to get Masterson, there was concerned that uh proper security measures would be taken. And so on, these concerns were relayed to me later that evening by, uh Mr Estes is in the development office. He simply relay them to me without attempting interpret

00:26:09.390 - 00:26:35.060

them by then I knew what was developing and not at all concerned, we can get back to that one uh chronological movement. So the, we, we might go back to the uh the student mass meeting. There was a great deal of feeling expressed th and a

00:26:35.069 - 00:26:59.420

good many things said which um as you would guess in a, in a, you know, an emotional situation like this, we're far from measured expressions of any concern. Oh, student leadership moved in, in a very effective way. Warren Garin came into his own. At this point,

00:27:01.420 - 00:27:26.650

the guy had already proven himself able to sort of um provide a, a dynamic sort of leadership uh in other situations. But this was kind of his really his big test. Um There, there were, of course, all sorts of, well, we, we, we had our, our

00:27:26.660 - 00:27:47.680

uh new left group there with their usual a formula is a response to this kind of situation and so on. Uh There was a feeling that that there must be some kind of a, a demonstration of protest. Uh it was not agreed upon at, at this

00:27:47.689 - 00:28:14.079

meeting, it was a great error that um the S A uh uh officers would meet with the representatives of the colleges and consider what could be done in the way of effective protests. Um The, the meeting broke up before the faculty meeting did I stood around

00:28:14.089 - 00:28:33.000

and talked with a number of individuals who were interested in what my, my reaction to this was and I very clearly where I stood on things. Oh, in, in the course of the meetings, one thing I nearly forgot that I think is of some significance here.

00:28:34.540 - 00:29:00.910

Oh, there, there was uh some anxiety on the part of students that if they made any kind of a, an expression of protest that they might feel the wrath of the administration. Um There were still repercussions from a, oh, a tentative draft of a statement on

00:29:00.920 - 00:29:29.569

disruptive. No, a, a any disruptive activities that um was an unfortunately worded statement. Uh We could cause some consternation and, and so there was a, a real concern on the part of some students would, would there be uh some sort of retribution here, some sort of

00:29:32.489 - 00:30:01.959

under punishment? Um And I, I told them that, um, and the administration so far as I knew, drew a clear line between protests and disruptions and that, um um as far as I personally felt that that uh protest when something had gone wrong was um, oh,

00:30:04.410 - 00:30:34.619

not only a privilege but a responsibility. Uh and that if they were interested in, in making this uh protest as effective as possible, it should be done with uh great restraint and dignity that there was um a very positive response to this including considerable applause. Um

00:30:35.869 - 00:30:54.479

This, this was in the, yeah, uh this question was addressed to me by, well, the question was addressed to the uh the war scar and somebody said, well, Dean Packer is here. Let's ask him essentially what I told them your reference to the uh statement of

00:30:54.489 - 00:31:15.290

policy. Was this a statement that was put out by the president and the college president? Then when they got word of it objected so strenuously that the statement was never, the policy was never pro well, uh, no, this is, we're talking about the same statement. The,

00:31:15.300 - 00:31:38.680

the situation is not quite as you, you phrase it. Um The campus executive committee that was a set up we had then I was concerned with the possibility disruptive activities. Um There was a meeting of this committee to which uh Dean mckinny and I were invited

00:31:40.099 - 00:32:02.810

command performance sort of thing. And uh there was a strong feeling that that some sort of an administrative statement was needed, let people know, you know, where the lines were and could expect. Uh Dean Minny and I were asked to draw up a statement, we drew

00:32:02.819 - 00:32:29.880

up a statement incorporating all sorts of ideas that um we discussed there. We tried to word this thing in a way that would take, you know, full account of, of the r uh healthy situation that we have here and to minimize any, any kind of arbitrariness

00:32:29.890 - 00:32:54.280

in the way of administrative acts and so on. Uh There was a second meeting of the campus Executive committee in which we presented a draft. Uh This draft was accepted as, as having incorporated, the essential ideas. Um It was a rough draft and we, we intended

00:32:54.290 - 00:33:22.819

it that way and um the executive committee then took it with the understanding some editing, polishing up of the words. So policy led to a considerable uh surface hardening and uh with that, you know, it was still the same policy. I, I remember my response when

00:33:22.829 - 00:33:37.650

I saw the draft that uh they were thinking about turning loose on the world and I, my Lord did I have something to do with writing this? You know, this was sort of the document we wrote and yet it, it kind of hit me. Unfortunately, I

00:33:37.660 - 00:33:58.130

had a copy of the original draft and there were just a lot of minor changes in wording that, that changed the character of it in many ways. Well, after, uh, this thing was pretty well kicked around upstairs and I don't know just what all was involved.

00:33:58.140 - 00:34:27.560

Um, Dean Gordon had sense enough to realize that he ought to present this to, to, uh, some students to see what, uh, what their response would be. Uh, he called, he had a luncheon meeting with the, uh, college president, maybe one or two other war gear

00:34:27.570 - 00:34:51.329

and perhaps, um, they read it and ran up the red flag. They said this will cause the very kind of confrontation you're trying to avoid. Um, I got a call from Gordon the afternoon after this meeting and he said he made two mistakes. One he hadn't

00:34:52.699 - 00:35:14.600

invited me to the meeting and two he hadn't consulted with earlier, but he was convinced that a serious mistake had been made in the way this thing had shaped up in the way the whole process. And, um, he was having to leave for Washington. That's just

00:35:15.679 - 00:35:39.110

Tuesday, I guess before the Masterson thing broke. Yes. And so he was having to leave. He asked me to, um, to contact student leaders, um s with his agent in this matter, uh explained to them that he would like to have taken the initiative himself. He

00:35:39.120 - 00:35:55.800

wanted to ask, you know, where can we go from here? Felt that they were committed to at this point, they felt committed to some kind of a statement, but they wanted to make the statement one that it was not a threat to the students because it

00:35:55.810 - 00:36:24.689

has not really been intended that way. And uh I did uh then I had some conferences with students. Yeah, they just immediately preceding the Masterson. Yes. Go oh Gordon, you know, was in Washington. And so he, he had left for Washington. He was due back at

00:36:24.699 - 00:36:49.080

one o'clock. I think Friday, the day the announcement was made was weathered in this plane, had going to Corpus Christi. And so he did not get back to the campus until after things that happened. So this um this experience with the unfortunate document was in the

00:36:49.090 - 00:37:12.389

background and very much in the minds of many students. So I guess there had been an editorial and some letters and so on from college presidents, um, about this thing because it, it was necessary to really get it out in the open and indicate that something

00:37:12.399 - 00:37:40.120

constructive is going to be done about it. Well, this statement never published enough pressure so that, no, no, um, it was, it was just admitted that the statement was, uh, unfortunately, um, uh structured and, and that uh there was every intention to come up with uh

00:37:40.129 - 00:38:06.909

something that going to be far more satisfactory, the statement and well, that, that's what it was. Oh, yes, I mean, this, you know, as soon as it's opened up, what boom, this kind of thing just uh goes like wildfire. I mean, they, the in the colleges

00:38:06.919 - 00:38:37.600

particularly you've got good communication there. So uh this was very much a part of the background was in the, the immediate background when the students were having uh their mass meeting considerable anxiety. Oh, the fact that they were, you know, the distinction was made between protest

00:38:37.610 - 00:39:08.489

and, and disruption supporting them in their right to protest manner appropriate to the university was something they were relieved to hear. Oh, how do you account for the uh response, the quick and instant response of uh this number of students coming to the. So I can

00:39:08.500 - 00:39:30.830

see her that after you mentioned one background incident that uh that sensitize them to, to uh threats uh were there any other background incidents that not, not, not really incidents? Uh but there had been, you see widespread uh student uh interest in the matter of the

00:39:30.840 - 00:39:57.300

presidential selection. Uh While the board had not uh included in its invitation uh student membership on the faculty committee, the board invited the faculty to set up a committee. It did not mention or did they prohibit uh students? Although I understand this matter was discussed informally,

00:39:57.310 - 00:40:15.600

it just simply didn't say anything. Uh but the faculty handled the matter by asking the students to select representatives who would come on as consultants. This is a term we use sort of for non voting members who might be excluded from certain executive sessions and so

00:40:15.610 - 00:40:38.469

on. Uh As a matter of fact, however, they, they were uh accepted as, as full members as far as the committee faculty. So the students had gone through a process, one of selecting their own a larger committee and from this uh selecting and representatives uh do

00:40:38.479 - 00:40:59.540

this faculty at the invitation of the fire. So there was um they had already been sensitized to this whole issue. You see, uh not only were they feeling that they ought to be invited in, they had in fact been invited in and they along with the

00:40:59.550 - 00:41:32.850

faculty had been stepped on with uh student moods uh being what they are these days, they just don't take it and express there this pleasure. Oh, but the, the, the really significant thing was that they, they raised the question how, how, you know, how can we

00:41:32.860 - 00:41:58.870

express ourselves effectively? And 11 of the most interesting things to me uh about this, this whole experience began to show up uh shortly after the, the mass meeting, as I say, I stood around and talked with a number of individuals that came up and uh a

00:41:58.989 - 00:42:22.429

good man and the students went down to where the faculty were meeting. Oh, so, and stood around outside and when the faculty came out, um there was a faculty resolution, they applauded it and generally indicated their, their support of the faculty in this matter. Um After

00:42:22.439 - 00:42:43.270

the meeting, I was headed down parking lot by the, the center and Warren Ken was standing there waiting a ride home and I offered him a ride and he said, I've got a ride coming. So I've chatted with him and he said, you know, I really

00:42:43.280 - 00:43:15.719

hadn't realized before today for these, you know, fond I am of this place. And uh he said, you know, I'll discover it that I really fell apart. And this was a, was the first expression that, but I heard usually in milder form similar expressions from youngster

00:43:15.729 - 00:43:42.080

after youngster report so well, sort of go along with the store as I as I can reconstruct it. I left one and went home, but I had been asked uh by some of the boys at the radio station, I'd come by that evening. They wanted to

00:43:42.090 - 00:44:05.820

get statements from a few faculty people and I said, sure, I'll be glad to come by and they, they were gonna interview us to come by. Um, so I went on home, I came back, I got there. I had the, uh, I, I chatted with the

00:44:05.830 - 00:44:24.010

boys down downstairs in the center at the radio station a bit and, uh, they told me about the, um, the college presidents had, had a meeting and, and the word was out that they were gonna have a mass meeting at the gym. The word was out,

00:44:24.020 - 00:44:44.729

this to be a cop and TFA spruce up. And, uh, they had agreed that there, there would be, uh only one sign, this was the big long sign faculty in Students United. Uh, that plus the little things they printed up. It can't happen here. Oh, a

00:44:44.750 - 00:45:09.429

and, um, the, uh, sds and their cohorts had agreed to do nothing, uh, separately to join in with the group. As a matter of fact, most of them took off their buttons the next day. Um, they, uh, SBS B and, uh, so, and then I was

00:45:09.439 - 00:45:33.110

told I had a note to call the development office. Oh, well, I'll go up and call them and I'll come on back down. They said we want, I want to interview you if you're willing. So, I went up and called Lees and, and, uh, he he

00:45:33.120 - 00:45:50.899

passed on this word that, that the, um, one of the trustees said, I wanted to be sure that well, wanted me to get in touch with so much of people. Um, and, uh, be sure that, you know, the proper security measures were taken, but this time

00:45:50.909 - 00:46:16.110

I knew things were well in hand. Um, Mr Rhodes, our security man who's a tremendously capable man in this business. I mean, he, he understands uh the student situation in, in a remarkable way and then has excellent relations with them, he had already been alerted and

00:46:16.260 - 00:46:39.159

while he planned to be out of town for the weekend, he, he came back and um I just didn't call the other people because I, I knew they would were well in hand and then I went down. Did you call her? Well, let's see. I can't

00:46:39.169 - 00:47:09.080

remember. He certainly wanted to alert uh Burling and left. No, whether there was a suggestion that uh perhaps we should contact the police sort of make. But, but anyhow, I was, uh they were felt that, uh surely, you know, things were gonna grow up and smoke.

00:47:09.500 - 00:47:31.270

Did le just give you any, any indication of where this chest is shot? I don't think this was information. I think this was just, uh you know, just the rabid sort of fear that people have of what students are gonna do. So, uh well, as I

00:47:31.280 - 00:48:01.929

say by then I, I knew that, you know, they had this thing, uh, this thing was getting under control and it worked out more beautifully than anyone could have expected. I, I knocked around the center and, and, uh, was interviewed on the DL, you know, find

00:48:01.939 - 00:48:23.159

out what, what had been planned that there was to be the master the next morning. So, uh, uh, I guess I, I talked with one of the security people told them, I thought everything in control. You have a sharp eye out, but I don't really expect

00:48:23.169 - 00:48:45.010

any trouble until I, what I knew. Um, I said, well, things had been calm and they, they felt, they saw no indication of anything happened. Uh, you never can tell when, when things are getting in control like this, you may still get through four kids go

00:48:45.020 - 00:49:06.409

out and do something crazy. And then, and you didn't, this could really be a trigger off something bigger. But, uh, as, as far as anything, you know, being planned by any group that to be disruptive or destructive or violent, there was every indication that this would

00:49:06.419 - 00:49:32.840

not happen. So I, I just didn't even bother some of the other people I was supposed to get in touch with, you know, in fact that the less that was done the better. Oh, well, next morning Saturday morning, you know, I came in, I had a,

00:49:33.010 - 00:49:55.540

I was having some special sessions from my math 100 class and, oh, a number of them showed up and they, about half of them were planning to go to the mass meeting. I walked down there with some other, talked about what was happening. This was a

00:49:55.550 - 00:50:25.540

very interesting experience for our freshman. Good way to get started in college. Went to the mass meeting which very well organized, quite orderly. It's amazing what these kids can do in the way of organizing something like this. Oh, I uh, went along with, with the group

00:50:25.550 - 00:50:49.479

that marched down, go and house was in the group. The, the whole time that they were out in front of, I love it. Did not join the, the smaller group that went across and gathered around, uh, Masterson, but sort of was standing watching and, uh, this,

00:50:49.489 - 00:51:11.439

this was a period of just almost continuous conversation with one student. I guess things broke up at 11 at about 1230. And as I walked across the campus, just a little group of students would come up and want to talk about things and I was, I

00:51:11.449 - 00:51:33.129

had to come back by here before I, I was planning to go home. Mm. It was three o'clock for her. Just, you know, talking to one kid. Were you close enough to, during the time that Masterson was addressing his students to understand much of what he

00:51:33.139 - 00:52:10.250

said? Or were you too far away? I, I don't know, I guess I heard most of what he said. Don't call, he had a bullhorn. It was rather interesting, say something and somebody just couldn't pertain his feeling and somebody let out a house quiet down and

00:52:10.260 - 00:52:37.989

he'd go along and he'd say something else again and all that, any question, you know, it was, you know, extremely interesting to watch and, uh, how he could have said to this group that he hadn't seen any real indication of protest. I think that's what one

00:52:38.000 - 00:53:03.189

of the things that called for a descending. Do you know? Uh, the, they, they were well behaved though? In fact, uh one story that I don't know whether it got picked up along the way, uh, some graduate student was telling me about being in the library

00:53:03.209 - 00:53:31.659

Saturday morning when the group came by and, and a student from South America was there and he said, what's that? A letter doing demonstration. The Latin American boss says that's no demonstration. Said that's a religious pilgrimage. I hadn't heard that. How do you count for State

00:53:31.669 - 00:54:04.750

for Masterton State? I don't know. II I knew Masterson reasonably well, but not that well. I think the guy wanted the job so badly that he, he just really couldn't be realistic about that. I think he knew rice well enough. But had he been allowed to

00:54:06.850 - 00:54:27.040

handle things in his own way? He might be president. Now, there were a good many who were far closer to the situation than I including some of the students who were we met with him? The period of several hours, the several periods that went over several

00:54:27.050 - 00:55:02.449

hours and Saturday, I guess the, uh, real highlight of the weekend, the college meetings, Sunday night. Uh, I first got word that, uh, well, I was out here Sunday afternoon for a while and one of the girls who was in my math class, so there's gonna

00:55:02.459 - 00:55:25.290

be a meeting over Brown tonight. We'd like for you to come out. So I pass it off to him. Well, I, I wasn't sure. And then, um, late in the aft afternoon I had a, to, and mint colleges indicating each of the colleges was going to

00:55:25.300 - 00:55:45.500

have a meeting and I was told something of the nature of it and they would like for me to come out and I realized that, you know, this again, the students had, had really moved here. So, uh, seven. Yes. Uh, I'll be out. I did come

00:55:45.510 - 00:56:13.270

out and I spent a little time at each of the, uh, men's colleges, the five men's colleges, uh, time ran out before I got to the women's colleges. Um, and this was a, a very remarkable experience. Every commons was full. They were off campus. Students hadn't

00:56:13.280 - 00:56:38.760

been seen in the, some of them had been seen inside the college since freshman week, first year, um, associates showed up who just rarely come to anything. And, um, the, the college presidents who had been very much involved in, in this thing all along, including being

00:56:38.770 - 00:56:59.739

involved in the um interview, extensive interview with Masterson uh reported on the ad events. So they had them, there are always a great many people who are not informed in spite of the fact that, you know, this was the big thing on campus. And so uh

00:56:59.820 - 00:57:24.949

uh I was at Hanson College, I went to Hanson College first, Jim Bo just did a remarkable job of summing things up. And then they had a number of people speak on the matter from a variety of points of view, what faculty be in some cases,

00:57:24.959 - 00:58:10.239

an older student who had known Masterson in those colleges where? Well, I'm sure that Barry Cap and uh Lady Berry spoke Jones a and uh the, the questioning was serious. The the comments were restrained, even strong feeling, very remarkable experience. Uh Faculty people commented that, you

00:58:10.250 - 00:58:44.379

know, I've time and again, they say I've got to know co colleagues that really been acquainted with students talked about that they just never had had the open kind of conversation with faculty people. The faculty certainly came to an appreciation. I want a student leadership students

00:58:44.389 - 00:59:13.500

generally, I think everybody realized that the colleges while, while they're certainly imperfect instruments, um We're a tremendous force in, in, in the uh life on this campus. Oh, incidentally, the radio station really came into its own, this thing had just gotten started in January really uh

00:59:13.510 - 00:59:35.120

it became the information center in the campus, played a very important role in that information was they, they did everything they could to check the issue. It was reliable. A and where rumors, uh, got started, these were checked out as best they could and scotched where

00:59:35.129 - 01:00:08.310

they weren't, um, were, they were groundless. Um, each of these college meetings was taped. I went by the basement of, in the radio station. All this must have been 1130 and, and already kids were starting to work through these tapes to pick uh to picking out

01:00:08.320 - 01:00:32.620

uh statements to be used in the broadcast, writing summaries. And some of these kids worked all night doing, oh, the uh development office had long since told the radio station, you know, anything, tell us, you know, this is where this was where the information center was.

01:00:34.320 - 01:01:07.370

Um The uh faculty certainly recognized the, the character of the, of the student body and the, the effectiveness of, of the college system. Uh As a matter of fact, the faculty had been almost leaderless in this thing. Um Watson, chairman of the faculty student committee really

01:01:07.379 - 01:01:36.620

couldn't take leadership. We've just been a sorehead and Bill Gordon who's an associate Dean, Gordon, William Gordon, who's an associate at uh Baker. I spoke to the Baker group. I was there. I, I got around to Baker just to, and he had very definitely uh cast

01:01:36.629 - 01:02:05.610

his lot with students and faculty in this. And he and one scarn worked together to formulate the um the questions for the referendum made plans for it. And it was this referendum that served as the, the results which have never been released, that which were given

01:02:05.620 - 01:02:34.580

to Mason apparently led to his family uh resigning. But uh Bill Gordon was just amazed and I hope you'll be talking with him about this. I mean, I hope he's won. Oh, but, but t he just expressed the highest kind of admiration for what he saw

01:02:34.590 - 01:03:11.310

among the students. Dus faculty members generally felt the students had shown the way and in responding to this thing, I'm glad it didn't drag on any longer. It would have been very difficult uh to maintain the, the, the kind of dignified and, and controlled response uh

01:03:11.320 - 01:03:39.169

that, that we had um are more activist. Uh I call them a desperate group. I was beginning to get restless, you know, that, that timetable on, on this sort of thing is awfully short. Yeah. You know, the feeling was that we, we have expressed ourselves, it

01:03:39.179 - 01:04:01.370

should be clear to anybody with any real sense that this is an intolerable situation. Yeah, they were just feeling, you know, something has to be done. And of course, when they get to that point, what they decide to do is not necessarily well designed to achieve

01:04:01.379 - 01:04:50.830

the goals that they, oh, so it was becoming increasingly difficult to, to maintain really responsible control protest here. Fortunately, we did not fight that battle too long. You mentioned earlier that uh, remark to or warn scaring heed talk that was reiterated by others. You, but uh

01:04:50.850 - 01:05:22.600

they hadn't realized how fond they were of this place. Would I be interpreting this correctly? Say that somehow their ID Rice but might have been earlier was being threatened on that. It was to them, you untouched by, well, you know, uh change, this would be related

01:05:22.610 - 01:05:51.129

to uh what they thought Masterson's idea versus their idea. It seems to me fairly central to this whole issue. Yeah. Um they felt, you know, in events before this had happened, they uh they were aware that that students were taken into the affairs of this university

01:05:51.139 - 01:06:15.939

and uh is a very responsible, an intelligent part of it. We made lots of progress in the last five years bringing students into the decision making process. This is not to say that students are making the decisions but, but their contribution to, to the, the kind

01:06:15.949 - 01:06:42.709

of uh investigation and, and evaluation of situations that lead to decisions uh has been an important one in many ways. And uh the fact that the uh of the faculty, I felt that they very definitely need to be dealt in into the uh process of uh

01:06:42.719 - 01:07:05.540

evaluating prospective uh presidents and so on. He had spoken to them in very positive terms and what they saw was not simply Masterson threatening him but, but the board in, in its uh a high handed way which they understood to be perfectly legal, but which they

01:07:05.550 - 01:07:29.489

felt, uh, to be, uh, uh, as I mean, they joined us in feeling that, that this was improper, this was a violation of our character of the university. And many of them were able to verbalize this to articulate it better than others. But some of them,

01:07:31.510 - 01:07:55.530

we're quite clear on this point. Unfortunately, the board seem to have been hung up on this very matter. Uh The question that seemed to bug them was no, I didn't have much contact with the board again, so I have to speak from some distance here. But

01:07:55.540 - 01:08:21.819

the thing that they seem to be hung up on question and what they fail to understand is that, you know, you don't run a university sense if you do, it's not, not a real university. So in this sense, yes, the students understood um uh their ideal

01:08:22.180 - 01:08:43.958

uh for rice and what they thought rice was becoming, this was spirit. And this was one of the things you see that students and faculty were largely of one mind on looking back on it. Um The vantage point of the perspective we have. Now, how do

01:08:43.969 - 01:09:13.019

you count in your own mind for the boards having handled things? And, oh, geez, um in the first place has been their, their understanding, uh, you know, over the years, um, as I said in my letter to the thresher, um I went back and reread the

01:09:13.028 - 01:09:42.999

charter. And from, from our standpoint, this is a pretty grim document. It, it uh it speaks in terms of this lifetime board, self perpetuating board, setting up a business. Um they were to invest his money and so on. And, and uh William Marsh Rice Institute was

01:09:43.008 - 01:10:12.640

first uh an organization to, to handle this trust and out of the income, then they were to do certain things. So to establish a public library, a technical institute for White students, Houston and Texas or Houston Harris County and Texas. Uh and that the board uh

01:10:12.649 - 01:10:39.669

was the point. Uh all the officers to carry out and the board uh acts formally on every faculty. You want to come here, promotions as well, well, promotions as well. It acts on, it acts on the recommendation of uh of the uh uh find it acts

01:10:39.680 - 01:10:58.089

on the recommendation of the president but a and by and large, uh this has been a formality. Uh uh The only time any real question has been raised is, you know, if the number of appointments gets too large, this sort of thing because there's an obvious

01:10:58.100 - 01:11:23.560

concern there. But um so, so starting from the very charter itself, there is this, this understanding that was so typical of the business world, late 19th century and early 20th century that this group as absolute legal and for them, this means moral authority to, to make

01:11:23.569 - 01:11:45.479

this appointment and that anything it does in the way of seeking advice and so on is gratuitous. So, you know, these people in, in some sense, couldn't understand what the fuss is all about. Um The trouble was, it has been quite clear from the very first

01:11:45.490 - 01:12:11.520

that they understood their charge was to help to establish a first class university. Anybody who supported really the original president in setting up the became an institution he set up must have understood these words to mean that their first responsibility was to set up a first

01:12:11.529 - 01:12:34.899

class university. So what the university actually used in the charter or is it called? And, and the institute refers as much to the, you know, the business end of things as it does to the uh uh to the academic side. So that uh and what they

01:12:34.910 - 01:13:03.370

have done, what just is and this was later um enlarged into a governing board in which the term members um I believe under the uh that Mr Brown. Oh, but uh what, what the board has done has been to select a strong president and then we

01:13:03.379 - 01:13:37.169

have trust and pretty well let him run the university within the uh oh you know, the the framework of the financial resources directions of we were going. Um even when this was the Rice Institute, the diplomat said the Rice Institute, an American University dedicated to the

01:13:37.490 - 01:14:02.640

advancement of arts, letters and science. That's the way my uh diplomas read and the kind of faculty, Dr Levitt brought here. It was just amazing. It was a swamp we from the edge of town. Gee when I was an undergraduate here in the, in the thirties,

01:14:04.479 - 01:14:20.200

I lived out in west end. If I use public transportation, I had to take a bus. Um, in fact, for a while I take a bus and transfer to a street car and then take a bus out to about where Sears is and then take a

01:14:20.209 - 01:14:47.169

shuttle bus out to here. So, you know, this was we in the country to bring together the kind of scholars international reputation that Doctor Levitt did Memphis. From the very first, it was intended to just be a which place in university small and and limited, therefore

01:14:47.180 - 01:15:16.319

by by size but first class um what the board apparently has not been able to understand, made some real efforts to, to get through to them what they have not been able to understand in many ways the character of the great universities have changed. And if

01:15:16.330 - 01:15:52.459

we still aspired to greatness and you know, we just had to be a different kind of an institution conceived of. Do you think his relations uh with or I was not close enough to that situation to know it appears more and more that there, there must

01:15:52.470 - 01:16:18.589

have been tensions which you just now, you know, go to surfacing, oh um with respect, but I did not know, not talked with any board members about this and not latch it. I suspect that a good many of them may have helped. Well, they probably had

01:16:18.600 - 01:16:48.720

mixed feelings because they recognized they had a good man, but there was probably some relief. So, because I, I think they felt, you know, that too far and too fast away from the old Rice Institute. Most of us here felt that what he was accomplishing was

01:16:51.290 - 01:17:16.680

very exciting. I bet my own professional future on Rice back in 1958 when I decided to stay very attractive offer elsewhere. And I had to say at a time when our department was just barely getting started, uh graduate program, having an awful time attracting the kind

01:17:16.689 - 01:17:35.009

of people that we wanted to know to the faculty and we wouldn't get in, we wouldn't take any other kind. I uh sort of bet my professional future that this place was going to become what it, what I knew it potentially to be. And we had

01:17:35.020 - 01:18:06.910

just about, uh we're just about to take off, we about to get the wheels off the ground. Oh, what are some of the aspects of the program that uh you think might have been in jeopardy? Had mastered you successful in staying to make uh too many

01:18:06.919 - 01:18:34.520

guesstimates there? I, I must say that I, so uh my own um negative response came primarily in, in terms of student affairs and he was one of the men who helped to bring the college system into being and in some sense was, was an effective master

01:18:34.709 - 01:18:59.919

in the early days when, when the job was that of, of sort of put me together what had been an anarchical sort of a situation in the, the old arms. But uh it is his views of how to handle students were far too autocratic. And while

01:18:59.930 - 01:19:30.620

he was respected by many of his colleagues, I mean, who had high respect for him, but felt that this was true in terms of my own relationship. Well, as dean of students, I was relieved when he left Rice quite frankly. Oh, because uh this was complicated

01:19:30.629 - 01:20:06.290

by the fact that my own way of dealing with students quite suspect and not too popular have worked with students on the basis of very intelligent to basically responsible young people, immature sense of being inexperienced, what amazingly adaptable and quick to, to mature uh when they

01:20:06.990 - 01:20:31.770

had some opportunity to, you know, understand the complexities of things that seem at first seem quite simple. I am felt very strongly that we had to but didn't we had to allow them to make their own mistakes. And to the only thing that we could do

01:20:31.779 - 01:20:52.799

to prevent them from making their mistakes were, was, well, the principal thing we could do is in the realm of persuasion, very little we could do in the way uh paternalistic uh hedging them in. Um There are obviously some limits when you're group living in this

01:20:53.620 - 01:21:29.509

but, um, um I, I was sought for the maximum freedom and the minimum of restrictions and system liability of, of some sort of community and uh many people, many people, my respect, you know, just, well, they saw me as a, is a pretty soft headed. So

01:21:29.520 - 01:21:58.890

I've started, I don't mind being called Salt Hearted, but I don't think I was salt, but at any rate, um I felt that we would uh take some steps backward or try to take some step backward. Masterson leadership. It can be quite unfortunate. I, I uh

01:21:58.899 - 01:22:27.600

personally had to face the question whether I could have operated as being a student under and I doubt that I could have because I have since left that office anyhow, but it wasn't because I was straight in my job. My, my, oh, my primary relationship is,

01:22:28.529 - 01:23:02.890

is that of uh member of the faculty. It was just one of the jobs that needed to that 10 time out winds up what I, what I, what I wanna say, unless there's something you wanna pro on a bit. Well, I think we've covered everything very

01:23:02.899 - 01:23:30.240

thoroughly. Uh And since you'll be here, any questions should come up f so that to, I really appreciate the time you've uh you've given me this afternoon. Um This is, has been a very important experience and, and I don't, you know, I don't mind telling you

01:23:30.250 - 01:23:48.470

how I reacted to it because I'm, I'm just saying things here for the record that I've been saying to people all along. So time is now 245.