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All right, so today is Thursday, May 11th, 2023. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Ms. Naomi Kuo for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice.

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So, to start from the very beginning, could you tell us where and when you were born? Okay, I was born in, I believe, St. Joseph Hospital in Houston. My parents were living in Sugar Land at the time, on—and I was born January

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19th, 1991. And how would you describe the household that you grew up in? I–I think we moved out just, you know, after I was two months old or something, so I don't have a lot of memories of that house.

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I believe it was my parents' first house that they owned. And it's a one-story, like, thir—quite modest. Yeah, in this older—sort of older part of Sugar Land. They had moved there to be closer to my mom's work at the time.

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She was working for my uncle's, like, lab or something, it was also in Sugar Land. And I understand you have a sibling. [NK: Yes.] Did you grow up speaking Mandarin, English, or, like,

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a mix of both with your parents? Yes, I have a sibling, older brother by two years. His name is Vincent. I grew up speaking a mix of English and Mandarin with my parents.

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And then they sort of spoke Taiwanese between themselves as a secret language, so we didn't know, [laughs] my brother and I didn't know Taiwanese. That's funny. [laughs] How would you also describe, like, the school district area that you grew up in?

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So, by the time I was two–so we—after Sugarland, my family moved to Corpus Christi, and then I moved back in 1993, I believe, to Friendswood, Texas, the Harris County side.

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So I went to CCISD. I think it was, like, pretty peaceful overall, you know, like middle class. Yeah, I remember in high school, I went to Clear Brooks, and there were, like,

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occasional, like, fights and that kind of thing, but nothing too scary. And do you have any, like, favorite childhood memories you'd like to share, or any, like, memories of like—your first art-related memories, maybe? Oh, sure. Let's

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see, general good childhood memories are just, like, gatherings at my grandma and aunt's house in Clear Lake. I think we would go there, like, every week or something, and I feel like a lot of my parents' friends, they had boys, so I had to, like, learn how to play with the

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boys, like, video games and, I don't know, roughhousing and that kind of thing. Art memory—I–I always loved to draw when I was a kid, and I kept this little drawing binder that I maybe assumed would be, like, kept forever or something, [laughs] and put my drawings in there.

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And I had this best friend named Sarah who lived a couple houses down in a cul de sac, and we would—I think one summer or so, I got into, like, making doll houses or something. We'd just, like, cut up cardboard boxes.

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And I'd start with, like, one house. I'm like, "Sarah, we're going to make a doll house." And then I was like, "No, we're going to make a city!" She's like, "No, we're not even finished with the house!" [laughs] And we would, like—I think I was into Little House on the Prairie, so I'd, like, hide

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under my neighbor's bushes and pretend I was in the, I don't know, wilderness, and mix like concoctions of people's plants for, like, booby traps for bad guys, that kind of thing. So, it was a good time, just, like, within the little cul de sac, you know, a lot of

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fun. Nice. That sounds really sweet. Do you still have the binder or, like, the dollhouse that you made? Dollhouse, no.

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[laughs] Binder, yes, I believe so. Nice. I bet it's good to, like, look back on, like, your very first drawings. [NK: Yeah.] So, about your parents, where were they born and what were their occupations?

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They were both [Zoom cuts out] and they grew up there, and they met in pharmacy school in Taiwan. So, in Taiwan, my mom was a pharmacist and my dad was a pharmaceutical salesman for a few years.

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And then when he moved with his family to Texas—and later my mom joined him—he recertified as a pharmacist and–and practiced in the US. My mom did pharm tech here as well. And did they influence, like, you becoming an artist in any way?

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Like, did they ever have, like, drawing as a hobby? I would say no, although they—I think they supported it a little, at least. I remember doing, like, an actual, like, drawing class outside of school when I was pretty young.

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And sometimes my elementary school did sort of after-school, like, art programs that my mom would drive me to. And I remember getting the full, like, RoseArt set of, like, 50 colors, it's always very exciting.

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But no, they're–they're quite musical, but as far as, like, visual arts, they themselves don't—I–I think they didn't have the environment, necessarily, to, like, develop that. But even so, I think they would have preferred music in particular.

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So, yeah, it's just something that is mostly for me, although my grandmothers were quite, like, crafty—or, like, yeah, I think it's just a different culture as well.

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And within your family, did you celebrate any, like, traditional Taiwanese holidays or, like, cultural traditions growing up? Not too many, or to a significant degree, I'd say.

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Yeah, I feel like somehow we lost both, like, traditional Taiwanese celebrations, and we were like very lukewarm about American traditions [laughs], so there was, like, nothing. But I think there were some, like, Chinese New Year stuff that we'd do.

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Like, in elementary school, I remember making some, like, collage picture book for my school, and I think they, like, kept it and laminated it, like, about like how to celebrate Chinese New Year. So, I think there was something enough that I would have some kind of memory.

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But yeah, I think as—I mean as m—when, like, grandparents passed away and that kind of thing, I feel like that faded as well. There's less of a reason to celebrate, yeah. Yeah, I know you mentioned your—both of your grandmothers were, like, "crafty." Did they

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have, like, a art style that they liked to do, or was it more like DIY? My–my paternal grandmother, she, like, knitted clothes and

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crocheted and stuff like that. And she was very frugal. I think, like, she and my aunt got really into, like, garage sales when [laughs] they moved to the US. So, it was, like, gathering stuff.

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I think, like, I inherited, like, trash bags, giant trash bags full of, like, yarn that looks—that is, like, wavy, so you can tell it was, like, unraveled from a sweater or something. And they would—I guess she had planned to keep that to make stuff out of.

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But in the early days, for her, she did that as, like, a household business, like a cottage business. And then my maternal grandmother, I actually don't know too much about her, but I know she actually worked in, like, garment factories for a living.

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So, she supported the family that way in Taiwan. That's really cool. And I know we might talk about your quilts later in the interview, but yeah, that's for later. [laughs] So, moving on to, like, education/work, so you attended UT Austin for undergrad, and there, you studied both English and

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studio art–studio art. So why did you choose to double major in these fields? I think early on in high school, you know, since

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my—both of my parents were in the health care field, and I feel like a lot of my peers, like in the Asian American community, went that way, I was like, "I–I could be a doctor. I could do it, like, I think I'm kind of smart, or something." [laughs] And then

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later, I was like, "No..." Like, I think I took to heart kind of the Christian teaching of just putting to use your, like, talents, your God-given talents, to, you know, serve your community,

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make—to develop that, as sort of, like, that's your responsibility. So, I was, like, I–I chose, instead of, like, doing something that I thought would be a cool accomplishment, instead of doing that, to kind of follow where I thought I was uniquely gifted, and that would

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have been the arts, and I was interested in literature at the time. My favorite classes were always English, read a lot. And, so, yeah, I chose that. I started my undergraduate years as an English major first,

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and then, like, after waffling a bit, I was like, "Oh, I can't leave art behind," and added that on. Yeah...I think that's it, yeah. That's how I chose it. Nice. And did you see any, like, similarities between those two fields while–while you were

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in college? I think I tried to make connections. Sometimes it is a bit difficult to—you have these interdisciplinary aspirations in college, but it's hard to realize them because, you know, every

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department does their own thing at times. Similarities, I mean...I–I ended up not going down the creative writing route with English. I think—like, I used to write poetry when I was a kid.

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I wasn't ever, like, a storyteller. Like, I don't—I didn't write stories, really. So, I don't know, I think if I had gone down that field, there would have been more similarities, like, if you're generating new art in both fields.

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But I was kind of curious to see, like, as I was studying different, like, writers, like, which kind of poets were, like, more interested in the idea of, like, what art is and they would, like, write about art in general or–or visual arts, even.

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And so I wrote like a–like a really cringy thesis on that, [laughs] that I have not opened. I–I, like, worked really hard to write a thesis in the English honors program, and then I've not cracked open [laughs] that book since then.

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But it's good to learn how to research, I will say that. Very valuable. But yeah, I think the English department was, like, dusty hallways, you know, I feel like when I was in school, it was—the emphasis on, like, reading diverse

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authors was, like, not that big of a deal, and so it was, like, you know, the "Europeans and old white guys" kind of thing, which I still loved, I guess [laughs]. Yeah, whereas I think in visual arts, I saw more of a possibility to

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explore ideas organically, and, like, to use multiple mediums to do so. And I–I could see myself going down that route more, so I ended up, yeah, not advancing in English, but continuing with art.

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And, like, in your art studio, did you have any, like, professors that left a lasting impact on your life? I would say in my undergraduate years, I was still very much exploring.

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And I think, like, I wasn't—I feel like I wasn't, like, a die-hard studio art student at the time. Like, you could point at—you could be like, "You look like an art student." I didn't feel like I looked like [laughs] an art student.

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Like, I didn't–I didn't put in those kind of intense hours, maybe because I was also doing, like, work in the English department and—yeah. But—so I feel like I was a very kind of just "touch-and-go" kind of student.

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But I think, like, getting to interact with some of the graduate students who were there, being—who were TAs, that kind of help planted the seed of, like, "Oh, you can go further, like, with your art education." And I did go to Italy one summer in

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UT's, like, study abroad, like, arts program, art and art history, and so I think I really appreciated, like, the two professors that went with us there. I didn't really keep in touch after I moved away, but I feel like that door is still open, like, I still have some

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sleuthing, track down some people and reconnect. So, yeah, positive overall, and just, like, good to be exposed to, and to see that some, you know, some professors are kind of snooty and nasty and the others are really friendly, and there's kind of a mix of people, yeah.

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Do you have any memories of when you studied abroad in Italy? Oh, yeah, certainly. Memories—particular memories you're asking for, mmm...I don't know,

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I think just getting to really deep dive into, like, it's not, like—it was a different experience than if I had just gone with family or friends for sure, 'cause it's, like, we got to hit up, like, every major cathedral, and like, "Look at the tiles, look at the fresco," you know,

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[laughs] like, "This is this and that Apostle's story." Or like, "Wow, you're in the presence of, you know, Caravaggio," or something like that. I think getting to

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experience, like, Italian cooking. Like, I think just some local ladies—oh, we lived in this former nun-nunnery, I don't know, like a—convent! And, you know, windows without bug screens, no AC, like, you can

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only use one appli—electrical appliance at once. Living that kind of lifestyle in a small-ish, like, mountain town was interesting. Yeah, but I–I do recall after going, like—going to Italy was, like, my way of, like,

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investing in a future in the arts, because I feel like that was the crossroads of, like, you could find a pharmacy—you could get certified as a pharmacy technician and, like, have a fallback option, or, you know, you could put in more experience or, like, seek more

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experience with art and go further that way. But I do remember coming back home that summer, I was, like—there was no aha moment of like, "That was life-changing. I definitely am meant to be an artist." Like, I think there's always very much the

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conflict of, like, "Was that worth it? Am I good at it? Like, did I have fun?" I don't know. It's a mixed bag sometimes, but, yeah. It's still good [laughs]. Yeah.

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Nice. Yeah, it sounds like it was, like, a turning point for you, but maybe you realized it a bit later on, rather than, like, at that moment. So, after graduating college in 2013, you then traveled to New York, so you then worked at Transform Arts and at Thrive Collective.

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So, before we dive into both of these experiences, could you first tell us what it was like to live in New York, especially since you'd been in Texas ever since you were born, until you graduated college? What it was like...So,

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I was there for over eight years, and I feel like my experiences came in, like, two-year, four-year chunks, so every kind of phase felt different. But in general, I mean, I think I moved

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at a good time, in the sense that, like, I was just open-minded, like, naive enough, trusting enough, right? Like, to go.

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And I had the support of, like, working with this, like, faith-based organization that you do, like, raise your support to be able to go, and so I—it wasn't, like, stressful in the financial sense, in the way that it typically is, right?

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Like, of kind of having to hustle. So, I'm very grateful for that. But yeah, I think just appreciated, like, the different environment, like, that kind of dense, big-city

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feel, and I–I appreciated that, like, you can see people from—you sound so cliché—from all walks of life, but also, like, different social classes, kind of having to rub shoulders. Like, growing up in the suburbs, like, in the middle-class kind of

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world, I feel like you can jump in your car, you know, go to where you want to go, and don't have to really pay attention to what you don't want to see, or you just kind of avoid—you never go places where you don't want to see. Whereas you have to pass it in New York City.

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Or—everyone's riding the subway or something, or you have to walk. [laughs] And I feel like that's a more honest view of, like, where you live, and I think I wanted to grow in that kind of, like, compassionate seeing, I guess,

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yeah. And plus, it's just very, like, visually interesting. Yeah, and I feel like people—there's—it has a history of just, like, people wanting to make a difference in their communities, or, like, facing challenges but, like, pushing

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forward, both in, like, the sort of, like, faith slash missions field, and also in art and, like, activism, so I was like, "This is where I want to, like, learn from others, or, like, from people who've been here before," even if it's, like, not in the, you know, immediate—like, if it was

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something in the recent past or anything, too, right? Like, yeah. But yeah, like, it's–it's very different. Like, you know, you can't just, like, load up your grocery cart with, like, everything

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you need for a month or something, right? Because like, if you—I didn't have a car either, so yeah, you have to kind of—it's a different rhythm of life, right? Like, you have to learn how to be, like, very self-contained with, like, your

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belongings and what you carry with you from place to place, yeah. So, within this transition, transition in lifestyle, did you find that working at Transform Arts with, like, th-the faith-based mission

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helped you feel more belonging in New York? Yeah, I'd say so. I was lucky to join the organization with, like, a friend from college and two other friends

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who weren't in the same organization, but we had gone to college together as well. Just kind of, like, adjusting together, I think that was a blessing. And yeah, I'd say it's—I think in Texas,

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in my experience, like, kind of moving in mostly Asian American and Asian American Christian circles, like, not a lot of people were choosing to pursue art, even though there were a lot of really talented people. You know, there's a handful that went into, like, radio and film, which is, like, a

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degree offered in—at UT. But—so, yeah, I feel—I felt it was good to, like, get more exposure and opportunities in art, but, like, within the context of, like, something I was familiar with, which

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was, like, kind of a more, like, faith-based setting. But, yeah, I think at the same time, I would learn, like, the need to broaden the circle even further, right?

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Like, it was a good kind of, like, yeah, way to adjust and to step into a partial unknown with, like, some support. But, yeah, I would soon kind of realize that—yeah, there are a lot of, like, race-based differences, or just, like, to encounter,

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like, political differences, like, that people don't always talk about within, like, Christian circles, and sometimes that causes some friction. But, yeah, I think—I guess it's a process, yeah, but grateful as well.

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Earlier you mentioned, like, the different infrastructure of New York and then also its ris—its rich history. Could you talk a bit more about your project, "Building Stories," that you did with Fina Yeung?

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[laughs] Sure. Yeah, that was my first little two-person show in this space—the Neighborhood Church in Greenwich Village,

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they basically have their main kind of meeting space as a gallery as well. And through the sort of Christian artist network, I had started out co-leading this breakfast meetup group where we would just read articles and—oh, share our art together and, you know, very early in the

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morning, like, before other people had to work, we would go to some coffee shop. Anyway, so I knew this guy from there, and he kind of facilitated things at the gallery. And I had met Fina because I—I'm just

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doing my best as this, like, 22-year-old, right? Like, to network in a new city. And I went to a Asian American Arts Alliance, A4, meeting. I was like, "Naomi, you're going to meet one person," just like—and so [laughs]

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they–they do these short presentations, like, you can sign up to share about your art. So, Fina had shared about her art and I was just attending. I was like, you know, "My name is Naomi," [laughs] like something very, like, trying to meet someone. And we ended up chatting and–and she came to one of the

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breakfast meetups and–and there's some resonances between her work and mine, and so we just did a show together. It was awesome. Yeah, I think it was at

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the tail end of my time as a—at the sort of intern level with Transform Arts, the artist in residence program, so it was good to show a lot of the work that I had done in my studio time through that program. Yeah, I think the

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artwork itself in there for me is just, I think, my way of taking in the city and being sensitive to my surroundings and I think being curious of like, "What do the materials themselves tell us about this moment of flux or

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change?" Yeah. And they're usually—I don't know, most people would be like, "Where are all the people, like, New York's never empty." So, maybe there's some sense of, like, just trying to find my own place within the city,

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still kind of exploring that curious but lonely sort of feeling. Yeah. And I would say that's some of my best drawing, like, I kind of strayed from drawing and painting as, like, my main medium since then.

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So, I kind of look back like, "Dang, I wonder if I can still do that." [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah, grateful for that show. And I'm still friends with Fina, hope to kind of reconnect with her when I visit. Do you have, like, a favorite–favorite building

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that you drew? Or do you not remember, like, the specific buildings? I don't know that there's a particular one. I mean, I think the first kind of drawing in that

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sort of building-focused series was, like, these two sort of rowhouse-looking, like, older single-family homes, and I just kind of, like, blocked out everything surrounding it, because they were all larger apartment

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buildings. And so there were these sort of, like, relics of a different time, kind of floating in abstract space. That one I quite liked. But yeah, I believe I sold that one, so don't have it around anymore.

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But yeah. So, next, you worked as a muralist and a teaching artist at Thrive Collective, and that is an organization that centers around mentoring students at public schools. So, could you explain a bit more about Thrive Collective and then also your work

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within the organization? Yeah, I like to say that I got to do a lot of things that I wasn't qualified for in that time period in New York—or all that to say, like, a lot of opportunities came up

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because—I worked with Thrive while I worked with Transform. And so it was a bit of a partnership, even though Thrive wasn't a faith-based—explicitly faith-based, like, its organizer was really connected in those circles.

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And I—at first I was able to work there on, like, a volunteer basis, because part of my role with Transform was, like, I could—I had hours to give to, like, community service, some, like, related things.

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It—that—okay, yes, that was, like, a good turning point of, like, looking at walls to painting on walls in a sense, or kind of, like, wondering about how communities form and main—like

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maintain their well-being through time, to, like—through Thrive, like going to public schools that lacked—or were in a moment where a lot of their art funding was cut, and so they didn't have an art teacher or, like, a really robust art

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education, or at times there was, like, one art teacher and I would kind of partner with him. So—and it took me to—out of circles where—I–I was living in Astoria, which is, like, Western Queens. It's, like, very close to Manhattan, and a lot of other people

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who also moved to New York recently would, you know, live there first or something, right? So, a lot of people that I was getting to know locally were also recent transplants like myself. But working with Thri-Thrive, I would go to, like—I worked

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primarily in the Bronx. And yeah, just getting to see, like, a predominantly, like, Puerto Rican community or, like, yeah, just like Black and brown communities, right, like,

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was, I think, a good step for me out of that, like, comfortable—or just like the version of New York that I would naturally have seen, to ones that have been around for longer and have kind of their own set of cultures as well as, like, needs and strengths and

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stuff. And yeah, but I think the nature of, like, filling in for the lack of larger art funding and resources for these communities is kind of—it's just inherently chaotic,

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a–a bit. [laughs] And it was the sort of earlier years for the organization as well, so I think it was still kind of finding best practices and rhythms and stuff. But yeah, so it was, like, a lot of hard work. I think, like, one, just kind of being a drop-in teacher and

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having to learn classroom management stuff for some schools where that's, like, a little bit of a struggle, or, yeah, just kind of learning what's bite-sized enough, like, appropriate art–art education to where people have the tools to

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reflect on a theme together. So, a lot of—so, all of the murals are collaborative in the sense that we may come in with, like, a loose theme, and they would kind of respond and give input, and we put all those drawings together and then, like,

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submit designs for their further input. So, it was, like, this process that was really cool. It also helped me to revive my Photoshop skills and bring that into my own art practice.

00:33:02.620 - 00:33:21.180

It was kind of lying dormant there, but yeah, now I'm, like, mostly on the computer, like, for scenes and–and kind of drawing by hand, but also scanning in and, like, getting to manipulate things digitally. So, yeah.

00:33:21.180 - 00:33:42.320

I think...yeah, being up on two or three level, like, scaffolding structures, like, painting a giant handball, like, court in the middle of the summer. Yeah, nice bonding experiences with people that I worked with.

00:33:42.630 - 00:34:02.110

But yeah, also led me to see the—I was curious about what—how–how much more effective I could be if, like, for one, I could stay in a community for longer, like, these were, you know, a couple

00:34:02.110 - 00:34:21.540

weeks at the end of their semester after they finish testing, and you may or may not return, based on what they wanted or what the funding was like. Plus, I didn't live there, so what would it be like to be in a neighborhood that, like, you actually lived or you identify more with the community?

00:34:23.500 - 00:34:42.150

Yeah, and then I'm like, "Surely there's more to, like, community-based art than, like, murals." And so I think that sent me on the track to go to grad school for socially engaged art and to also move to Flushing, Queens after that, where it's, like, a primarily

00:34:42.800 - 00:35:09.200

Asian community, but yeah. Nice. Do you have any particular memories from working with the students that stand out to you? Mmm...I think just bits and pieces.

00:35:09.200 - 00:35:30.550

Like, I would bring my sketchbook over just to sometimes show people how to draw certain things that they didn't know how to draw. And I remember some students would be really excited about the sketchbook, and like—or–or kind of trick me into drawing it for them or

00:35:30.660 - 00:35:43.070

something [laughs]. Yeah. Or they would, like, practice on my sketchbook. So, very sweet moments. And yeah, I think painting murals, like,

00:35:44.260 - 00:36:01.200

you end up going into spaces that you don't usually walk in. And so, like, the three feet of grass behind, like, a fence between the fence and the building or something, right? Like, where there's a mouse trap and, like, some trash, but I think

00:36:01.200 - 00:36:18.700

being in those spaces like with the students and who are all just like, always super excited to paint, like, paint is like catnip for kids, I feel [laughs]. It's, like, you know, it's so tactile and it changes, and

00:36:22.280 - 00:36:39.510

yeah. So, I think, yeah, just going into those, like, marginal spaces and having fun there, it's a good memory. I like the catnip analogy. [NK: laughs] Is the mural the largest thing you've ever painted, or do

00:36:39.650 - 00:37:00.070

you have any other large-scale projects? Yeah, I would say that's the largest. The others are not quite, like, building wall sized. A large quilt maybe, or, like, a temporary structure, but yeah.

00:37:04.660 - 00:37:22.960

So, fast forwarding a bit to 2021. So, that's when you moved from NYC back to Houston. Can you think of some art-related things that you could find in one city but not the other?

00:37:22.960 - 00:37:42.980

I'm still exploring what is in Houston, so I can't say definitively something is not here at this point. But I feel like in New York there's more, like, artist

00:37:43.550 - 00:38:02.360

collectives, or artist-run, like, nonprofits, even, that are maybe more environmentally focused. Or—like, Works on Water.

00:38:03.230 - 00:38:20.990

I don't know, even Laundromat Project—not exactly environmentally focused, but, like, kind of social practice or, like, art that involves, like, community or, like, interventionist kind of actions, or

00:38:22.660 - 00:38:39.690

bringing art to, like, everyday spaces, and, you know, local communities. I'm—yeah, I'm hopeful that I'll find more in Houston, and—or maybe, you know, if I...yeah,

00:38:44.710 - 00:39:02.420

if I–if I kind of find my own niche in working, and can maybe start something here as well. But yeah, I think I really enjoyed that sort of movement

00:39:04.680 - 00:39:25.260

towards, like, a hyper-local focus with artists where, you know, they want to just, as part of their own communities, like, bring attention to certain things or, you know, highlight under-told stories or kind of

00:39:25.260 - 00:39:42.160

activate different spaces. Yeah, I'm cur—and I think—and I-I found those things living kind of, like, towards the edge of Queens. Like, we're getting into Long Island almost, right?

00:39:46.340 - 00:40:07.020

Whereas if—I-I know of more art stuff happening in, like—with, like, in downtown Houston or within 610. I don't know if all of that is called downtown, but—sometimes within Beltway eight—but living, I moved with my parents

00:40:08.340 - 00:40:23.890

to, like, the edge of Missouri City, like, to the east a little. And so I feel like I don't know if people are doing the same level of

00:40:24.670 - 00:40:46.020

culture-making in the outskirts of Houston or, like—yeah, or–or maybe it's more of, like, a multi-generational kind of gathering of hobbyists, kind of, like, groups that are—that I've seen in Sugar Land, which is cool and needed as well, but

00:40:47.180 - 00:41:02.900

yeah, I'd love to see more work on environment down here or, like, collective work. I'm starting to meet, you know, really interesting individual artists. Yeah.

00:41:05.190 - 00:41:22.660

So, speaking of, like, environmental works, or I guess kind of hyper-local as well, one of your projects, Garden Connections, won you grant funding from the Idea Fund Houston this year. Could you explain a bit more about your project and kind of the process behind it?

00:41:24.250 - 00:41:46.600

Yeah, sure. So, let's see. I'd started to do projects where I wanted to create a sort of open platform for people to share their

00:41:46.600 - 00:42:05.010

stories on different themes, right, like, I would—one of them took the form of, like, quilting workshops where people from the community kind of taught each other. And then the next was walks within Flushing amongst different Asian Americans, to sort of, like, grasp

00:42:05.010 - 00:42:21.460

that, like, what makes living here—like, how does that form an iden—like, a certain identity or a way of relating to space? But—and so, like, I feel like the next step, sort of logically for me, was—especially

00:42:23.870 - 00:42:44.370

after moving back to Houston, was now just kind of revisiting, mmm, spaces and family connections that I have a longer-term history with, right, because I had only lived in

00:42:44.370 - 00:43:00.930

Flushing for, like, four years, or at that—at the time when I was doing projects, like, even less time. So, it was like I'm trying to bring up stories that I did not personally live through, right, or, like, was not around for.

00:43:02.900 - 00:43:17.190

And I feel like I'm still, like, you're never really fully native or belonging somewhere. I feel like everyone moves around, whether or not it's, like, location or maybe you're busy with different things.

00:43:17.220 - 00:43:36.510

But anyways, it's not so much about, like, finding belonging, I think, necessarily for me in this project, but I think that sense of wanting to celebrate people who have helped—like, been in touch with my family for, like, decades.

00:43:37.920 - 00:43:53.680

So, I'm interviewing different people who have given my family gardening help in the last year, something that, like, my parents and I has—have, like, restarted in our home.

00:43:55.000 - 00:44:10.800

And I think in the process of tracing those exchanges, like, celebrating those friendships, and, like, the backyard garden is a very, like, Asian space for me.

00:44:10.890 - 00:44:29.360

Like, it's very—like, visually, some things are quite particular. Like, I–I–I did a lot of artwork about those spaces in Flushing, like, when I lived there, that was one of those, like, "Oh, I'm very familiar with that particular aesthetic." And I would notice that and–and

00:44:30.650 - 00:44:46.800

draw that and kind of reflect on that. And so now I have personal access to these spaces because I know the–the gardener, owner, now, and yeah. So, I think it's about celebrating those

00:44:48.640 - 00:45:09.050

aesthetics and the pragmatism and just the sort of, yeah, long-term practice that people have of growing things that is a little more prevalent in the older generation. And I think i-it–it may expand to, like, doing

00:45:09.580 - 00:45:28.890

interviews of other gardeners beyond, like, strictly, "Oh, you've interacted with my family kind of organically before," so it might end up revealing more of, like, a larger network, but

00:45:28.890 - 00:45:47.380

still, I mean, it's like tracing how an average person—myself—is connected. Like, when—once you start meeting people and you're like, "Oh yeah, actually you're only like two, three degrees separated from, you know, this amazing auntie gardener in like

00:45:47.380 - 00:46:05.220

Katie or something, right?" Yeah. So, I'm hoping it'll take me to different places around Houston that I wouldn't have normally gone. So, it's similar, I guess, to my first impulse that I talked about with, like,

00:46:05.280 - 00:46:22.310

moving to New York. Yeah, like, making your way through the city in a way that breaks your usual patterns of behavior, to discover some kind of treasure that's always been there.

00:46:24.720 - 00:46:43.690

Yeah. And I think a lot of the gardeners are getting older as well, and so think it's about passing on, like, what they know as well, and encouraging more people to connect with nature and to also share of their abundance in the way that a lot of people have shared with us, so.

00:46:47.370 - 00:47:04.760

Yeah, there's like—it's kind of funny because there's, I guess, a stereotype of artists being these, like, solitary people who are always locked in their rooms all day. But clearly, there's—like, for you at least, like, teaching and for-forging new relationships and kind of giving back to the community is

00:47:05.170 - 00:47:15.990

something that you do with your art. So, what would you say art means to you? And, like, do you have an artistic mission?

00:47:16.840 - 00:47:31.910

Hmm. Yeah, you know, I've had to think a lot about these things recently. And I don't know that I have, like—you know, art will mean something different in different seasons, I think.

00:47:33.850 - 00:47:52.000

But yeah, I think art means getting to dream and be absurd [laughs] and kind of

00:47:53.310 - 00:48:10.380

be a mad scientist with ideas and, you know, maybe some of them helps the larger society [laughs]. And, like, you know, you're just kind of experimenting. Yeah. Because I think, like—and this maybe ties

00:48:10.620 - 00:48:29.760

into more of, like, a mission sense, but I think there are—like, we get used to relating to each other. Or, like, a certain community may know, like, have a certain body of knowledge that doesn't get spread out to other people because

00:48:30.750 - 00:48:49.620

that's just how the relationships are contained. But I think part of, I don't know, living better together in a diverse society means, like, facing these truths and histories that are

00:48:49.620 - 00:49:08.420

not always acknowledged by all. Yeah, or, like, seeing ourselves as this kind of big, living, breathing city that's reliant on all these hidden infrastructures, right, that have different impacts on the environment and I think, yeah, just, like, helping people

00:49:09.840 - 00:49:27.240

see beyond the cocoon of day-to-day, like, experience. Yeah, to feel part of something bigger. Yeah, and to see that the beauty of those, you know, other

00:49:28.340 - 00:49:46.470

stories and knowledge and skills that you might not have encountered normally. But yeah, I think it's hard, like, an artist. Art also means being supported by the people around you.

00:49:46.670 - 00:50:06.580

I think you kind of—you need to have your basic needs met in order to dream. Or it's in the process of, like, finding alternate ways to meet basic needs in community and, like, forging new possibilities that way, in connection with, like, meeting [laughs]

00:50:06.580 - 00:50:26.060

one's basic needs. So, yeah, I think also there's always an element of connecting with kind of the most fundamental aspect of art, which in a way is, like, self-expression or just, like,

00:50:27.300 - 00:50:44.960

sensory needs or experimentation, not necessarily in the grand idea scale, but just like, "What does, like, green yarn and purple yarn look like together," right? Like, just getting to do that in your own daily

00:50:45.790 - 00:51:04.320

rhythms, I think is important. Yeah, it's, like, it's hard to imagine a life—I think would always be just randomly making things as well, even if didn't pursue it professionally. But yeah, al—yes, also,

00:51:06.040 - 00:51:24.300

I think I grow a little weary thinking about, like, if art—like the goal of being an artist is just to be this, like, mega international superstar or something, like, that shows in museums, like, I don't know if I have that kind of energy.

00:51:24.410 - 00:51:39.590

Like, my hustle is wearing thin. But I think, like, at best, if an artist can be this, like, prototypical like everyday person, but you get to

00:51:40.890 - 00:52:00.700

kind of revel in your limitations or just show those kind of, like, vulnerable sides that all of us have. But there's some kind of catharsis in being like, "Oh, like, this person is showing it, is, like, displaying it, and we can all normalize

00:52:00.700 - 00:52:21.420

our humanness." Yeah. Because while I can have really lofty missions, like, I don't want people to get left behind when there's a drought or a heat wave, right? Or, like, you know, the grandma that doesn't speak English.

00:52:22.740 - 00:52:37.920

I think about those kind of people, I think, like, why we need to build better community these days. But at the same time, I don't always make time to, like, spend time with family, right? Like, I think there's, like—yeah,

00:52:39.970 - 00:53:00.190

acknowledging our own limitations, like I said, are just like, we don't all live out our ideals the way that we want to, but we can kind of strive for that together and kind of learn from each other as we're doing that.

00:53:00.560 - 00:53:20.920

Yeah. Yeah. So, kind of related to that spirit of, like, collaboration or, like, kind of giving back to others, one of your pieces that I really love is Social Practice. Could you kind of describe—or sorry, one of your projects, Eco Crafts for Friends, under

00:53:20.920 - 00:53:37.970

your Social Practice project. Could you describe how that helped you kind of get through the pandemic? Mmm. Yeah, that—start of the pandemic, I, you know, was still—I was living in New York.

00:53:38.340 - 00:53:54.770

I had only recently started my first job after grad school, which was working at a multidisciplinary art center in a neighborhood in Queens.

00:53:56.780 - 00:54:16.360

And yeah, being, like, the only visual arts staff at the time, just kind of, like, trying to hold things together and then, you know, reinventing a whole online world for programs when, you know, lockdown happened.

00:54:16.550 - 00:54:34.030

It was really stressful. And...yeah, thinking a lot about, like, the importance of community, especially where I think was raised to prioritize just, like,

00:54:35.350 - 00:54:52.940

work, working hard or, like, yeah, even pursuing different achievements just by kind of burying yourself in work, you kind of find—you emerge and you're like, "Ooh, to survive, I need friends." [laughs].

00:54:53.190 - 00:55:11.820

And, you know, I've been thinking about that for a while, and it's just kind of confirmed through the pandemic when, yeah, you have to—especially in the absence of having family around you, you really have to rely on your community and your friends.

00:55:14.250 - 00:55:34.210

But yeah, for that project, I had just started this online residency, artist residency, with City Seminary of New York, who I had interned with in my early days in New York. And so it came time to propose a project, and

00:55:35.910 - 00:55:55.370

at first, I had this really kind of ambitious project in mind. I'd just sort of found out that my parents had very different political views than me in that really contentious election time. Oh—no,

00:55:56.630 - 00:56:12.880

it was during the—what do you call it? January 6th, when people— [EM: Oh, the insurrection?] Insurrection. That's the word [laughs]. Yeah, I think, just—I wanted to

00:56:14.450 - 00:56:35.070

do something about, like, the different media worlds we live in, and the sort of, like, networks of knowledge that I was talking about, and find a way to, like, I don't know, share in an intergenerational way, like, what we care about, and hopefully in a way that was more

00:56:35.070 - 00:56:51.050

inviting than kind of divisive as it felt at the time. But I was like, "I don't have the energy for that. Let's be honest." It was a very, like, "let's be honest," time of life,

00:56:51.360 - 00:57:07.330

right? Like, we're all kind of coming to—it was right before the "I don't dream of labor" kind of trend, right? Like, we're all kind of questioning work at the same time. But yeah, so I guess in an effort to be honest

00:57:08.080 - 00:57:27.000

about, like, kind of my mental health needs I guess, or just, like, be honest—being honest about capacity and sort of, like, questioning that just, like, "just bury your head in work" like, kind of mode. I was, like, let me just make crafts

00:57:28.480 - 00:57:44.020

and, like, [laughs] I had already done a lot of projects using, like, kind of consumer waste, I guess. Like, you know, different, like, wrappers, especially stuff from,

00:57:45.600 - 00:58:01.190

like, the Chinese grocery stores, like, kind of tying in those, the aesthetics of those products into my collage, kind of tapestry work. So, I was–I was working with a lot of trash, but for different reasons at the time.

00:58:01.320 - 00:58:15.070

I think I'd always been, like, frugal as well. And, like, the quilting impulse is really to, like, save all your old fabric things, too. So, you know, that was already part of me.

00:58:16.590 - 00:58:35.430

But yeah, I was getting really interested in, like, composting and just, like, being more aware of, like, environmental issues at the same time, and so I think just in the spirit of the mad artist, like, scientist, I was like, "This seems almost related,

00:58:35.680 - 00:58:54.330

right?" Like, the need to, like, maintain your relationships and, like, tend to your own sort of, like, I don't know, well-being and community in the way that—like, tending to things that

00:58:54.720 - 00:59:10.810

you don't really think about when you're busy or you're in the middle of something big. And you only realize during a crisis that, like, "Wow, I needed to actually maintain that or, like, take care of that a lot more." I think the same can be said of our environment as well.

00:59:10.810 - 00:59:30.170

Like, yeah, we don't think of a lot of things, just in the way that things are built and optimized for us until things go wrong, right? Yeah, and I think it helped me, mmm,

00:59:31.180 - 00:59:47.930

get out of, like, more of a sense of helplessness, because you're–you're almost, like, forcing gifts on people, like, "I made this little scrunchie for you. Take it." [laughs] Right? But yeah, it's a—it's a kind of way to, like, trick yourself into,

00:59:47.930 - 01:00:05.160

like, taking that first step to reach out to someone or, you know, in the process, you do get to check on others too. So it's not–not all about your needs necessarily either, right? Yeah. But it was fun, I

01:00:05.190 - 01:00:21.680

think, like, that kind of performance as proj—I'm not really a performance artist, but it was a relief to do something at that scale and, you know, not–not overly document it necessarily, either. Yeah.

01:00:24.020 - 01:00:42.960

Yes. I'm glad that art was a way for you and your loved ones to stay a little more sane during the pandemic. [NK: Yeah, sure.] Yeah, so as you said, art at its most fundamental is kind of about experimentation and just being curious. So, you have created a wide range of

01:00:43.030 - 01:01:07.070

art pieces, including mixed media quilts, paintings, drawings, and zines. So, do you have, like, a main medium or are they all kind of equal in your mind? Hmm...it's really anyone's guess at this point, like I think— [laughs].

01:01:10.620 - 01:01:29.990

Probably...sewing will always be one of them. I'm almost doing zines as a default medium at this point, so I'm not sure, like, you know, if I'll explore some aspect of what a zine does but in a different way.

01:01:30.150 - 01:01:51.580

But yeah, I think I do enjoy the sort of art form where you're not necessarily belaboring the process, or, like, really beating yourself up to get an image that in a perfect way, in the way that, like, sometimes paintings and

01:01:51.600 - 01:02:12.960

drawings end up being for me, in the sort of, like—potential for mass distribution is–is interesting, that sort of way of thinking about art as, like, primarily communication versus, like, a unique

01:02:12.960 - 01:02:28.060

object, right? And probably, like, my kind of literary side re-emerging. Yeah, and the sequential nature of a zine is interesting to me. Like, you get to lead people on a journey.

01:02:29.130 - 01:02:42.480

But yeah, maybe—it's funny, zines had a heyday, apparently, you know. Early 2000s or something like that, when people wanted to go back to being analog.

01:02:42.730 - 01:02:56.670

I think they're still around. I think it's still around. It's fine [laughs]. Yeah. So, okay, so I do like zines right now. I like the sort of use of recycled

01:02:58.560 - 01:03:14.650

materials or cast-offs and, yeah, like letting that be the substrate of your work or, like, being kind of waste-conscious at all levels of your art, I think that's interesting to me.

01:03:15.870 - 01:03:34.480

So I think that's why I'm drawn more to quilting and sewing and collaging more so than just painting on a canvas. Yeah. So, quilts and zines. Nice. Yeah, I can definitely see how environmentalism and kind of recycling is

01:03:34.480 - 01:03:47.810

present in a lot of your art. Speaking of quilting, did you learn to sew for the purpose of quilting, or was that a skill you already had?

01:03:47.840 - 01:04:02.410

Well, it's a mix. I'm sure my mom taught me the basics of, like, needle, thread goes through needle, tie a knot. And I think I made my own, like,

01:04:03.390 - 01:04:22.880

kind of falling-apart-at-the-seams doll clothes when I was very little, but I did learn how to—the concept of, like, piecing together quilts, like, you know, you put the wrong—the right sides together, you sew a line, and then when you fold it open, the raw side's on the

01:04:22.880 - 01:04:39.010

underside, like that little process I learned from a Malaysian friend, the daughter of the pastor at the time at this little Taiwanese church. Our parents would get together, and she was a little bit older, so she was probably like,

01:04:39.080 - 01:04:54.820

"I have to entertain this little girl." [laughs] And her grandmother had made these pretty simple quilts. It's just, like, a bunch of triangles together. But she showed me the process of that and I was like, "This is magic!" And, like, I was

01:04:55.060 - 01:05:12.080

eight or something, and I think, yeah, every summer since then, I would undertake this hu—like, full-size quilt. I mean, like, big, like, a crib-size quilt, maybe, but it took, like, my whole summer just to make a quilt.

01:05:13.500 - 01:05:28.080

So, I did that. So, yeah, I got into sewing for the purpose of quilting, mostly, yeah. Do you ever sew quilts for warmth purposes, or is it always for, like, art?

01:05:30.840 - 01:05:49.700

I don't think I necessarily felt the lack of blankets or something, but they are mostly used as, like, functioning quilts. Yeah, we don't really hang anything on walls in my family home. I have made wall hangings before.

01:05:50.370 - 01:06:12.560

But yeah, I think I had read some "theory of craft" book at some point in New York, and I think the–the unique, the sort of, like—the boundaries around making things that are, like, that

01:06:12.880 - 01:06:29.330

reference the human body and that have to fill certain functions, like keeping the person warm or holding a thing, I think that's interesting. Yeah. Whereas the sort of, like, "this could be

01:06:29.530 - 01:06:46.270

anything" sort of, like, approach to art making that, you know, when it's just an object for contemplation, is different. Yeah. So, I like things that have some other function as well, sometimes.

01:06:49.170 - 01:07:07.280

And across your varied art interests, are there any other artists who you particularly admire or look up to? There are like—no-none in particular in the sense

01:07:07.610 - 01:07:28.170

of, like, top of mind as I'm making my own art. And I think about that sometimes as, like, maybe that needs to change. Like, it's–it's good to always be inspired or, like, let oneself be inspired by other people or, like, have a reference, but I

01:07:28.170 - 01:07:46.160

think in the course of, like, my education and sort of, like, perusal, a few artists came to mind as, like, kind of touchstones. Let's see. I think, like, Mary Mattingly

01:07:46.380 - 01:08:02.980

in New York is an artist who, like—at one point, I remember—Art 21 is a great resource. I saw her work through Art 21 of, like, she had collected all of her, like, personal waste or something, and it became this huge, like, boulder

01:08:03.140 - 01:08:17.800

that she rolled across the bridge, [laugh] or, like, you know, visualizing those invisible, you know, processes, things that we are like, "We threw it away so it went away," but, like, there is no "away", right? Like—and to sort of visualize that.

01:08:18.300 - 01:08:39.250

And in college, I think the moment where I was like, "Yeah, I want to be an artist" is I think I–I was at the Visual Arts Center at UT, you know, art department, and they were showing some kind of, like, Patty Chang video, so she's, like,

01:08:39.490 - 01:08:57.640

an American, Chinese American artist. But yeah, she sort of gets to, like, play with, like, history and geography and does performances with her parents. Like, I think bringing in different aspects of, like, who she

01:08:57.640 - 01:09:13.750

is and even her family life and, like, very fantastical as well. Like, you know, one of her later projects is she's, like, trekking down, like, a lost lake, through, like, the deserts of, like, Western China, right, or something like that.

01:09:15.280 - 01:09:32.580

Yeah, I thought that was really cool. And I like artists who bring in, like, their kind of other roles in life, right, like being a mother or being a daughter. Or kind of, like, bringing to light, you know,

01:09:34.170 - 01:09:55.790

environmental justice issues, like, by kind of photographing—like, photographing your everyday environment or, like, what it's like to live in those kind of places, or...yeah, I think in New York, groups like the Chinatown

01:09:56.340 - 01:10:15.630

Art Brigade, where they're really just, like, being in service of other sort of, like, activist groups, and using different art or street tactics to bring awareness to, like, gentrification, or—yeah,

01:10:17.570 - 01:10:32.670

I think all those different modes are interesting. I guess Miri—can never say her name—Mierle Ukeles is a touch—is a–is a great example as well, right? Like, the sort of—oh, what

01:10:35.800 - 01:10:50.620

is her term? I don't remember, but, like, service as art or, like, bringing attention to the ways that we labor to keep life going. Like, for example, the work-maintenance art, there you go.

01:10:51.200 - 01:11:06.110

Yeah. I think that's a good inspiration. Yeah. I won't name-drop any further [laughs]. I'm sure there are other artists who also look at your work and feel the same way.

01:11:06.830 - 01:11:19.820

Oh, I hope so [laughs]. So, moving on to our last kind of segment on identity. So, could you tell us how you identify ethnically? For example, do you identify as Taiwanese, or Taiwanese American, or something

01:11:22.580 - 01:11:40.000

different? I identify as Taiwanese American...yeah, I-I saw that question, and I was like, "That's an interesting question." [laughs] I guess others may choose to answer in different ways, but

01:11:41.230 - 01:11:56.170

yeah. Because my–my mom's family, like, her father came over after the Chinese Civil War. So, he's a mainlander.

01:11:57.260 - 01:12:13.010

And my dad's family is part, like, native Taiwanese, as well as, like, the kind of older Chinese gen—in Taiwan kind of population. So, it's, like, ethnically, what does that necessarily mean?

01:12:13.010 - 01:12:25.250

It's, like, politically, citizenship-wise, they were Taiwanese. Yeah. But now we live in America, so it's a mix. Yeah.

01:12:25.250 - 01:12:42.840

And do you have any plans to visit Taiwan any time soon? Not anytime soon, although I'd like to. The last time I went, I was 14. And now I'm 32.

01:12:47.730 - 01:13:02.830

Yeah, I–I would like to actually go with my parents, I think that would be interesting, but health-wise that may or may not be possible. So, I don't know.

01:13:03.070 - 01:13:18.830

And how often do you visit your family in Houston if they still live in Houston? Yeah, so I currently live with my parents, and my brother lives in Brownsville, Texas.

01:13:18.930 - 01:13:39.320

He comes up every few months for, like, a weekend. And then I have two aunts and one uncle, all on my dad's side in Houston. I see some of them every

01:13:39.320 - 01:13:57.600

few months as well. My-my dad sees them more often, they're—two of them live in Clear Lake, so it's closer to where we used to live in Friendswood, but it's a little bit far. But as I do the, like, garden interviews, actually, I'm, like—have an excuse to,

01:13:59.860 - 01:14:18.130

yeah, to see them. Yeah. It's—I think it's been a little more than a year since I've moved back, but I think not living in Houston for a while, and certainly through the years of the pandemic, it was harder to keep

01:14:18.130 - 01:14:37.410

in touch. But yeah, it's an opportunity now, I think, to—especially, like, you know, the cousins and stuff that are closer to my age, I'd like to keep up with them more. As of now, it's–it's here and there. Yeah, it's great that y'all are all in Texas, so it's–it's a bit easier to keep in touch

01:14:38.090 - 01:14:51.330

compared to if you were in another state. Yeah, I do have other relatives in other states, but yeah, there's–there's a handful in Houston. Could I also ask about your current hobbies and interests outside of art?

01:14:52.330 - 01:15:09.340

Mmm. Well, gardening is a big one right now. I'm in my second year of gardening, so it's the drama of, like, "What's this

01:15:09.340 - 01:15:24.310

new plant that didn't come up before? Like, why can't I replicate last year's kind of fluke success?" [laughs] So, that's been great. I think just, like—oh, well,

01:15:25.340 - 01:15:44.900

I recently just completed the Texas Master Naturalist initial training. It's—basically, you get to be a slightly more informed volunteer for the Parks Department. It's a program between the Texas Parks Department and the Texas A&M

01:15:45.050 - 01:16:00.380

AgriLife Extension. So, you learn all about local ecology and plants and birds and bugs and water, weather, all that kind of stuff, like, very regionally. So, that's–that's been cool.

01:16:02.770 - 01:16:18.160

So, I now need to get in more volunteer hours at different conservationists, like prairie conservation stuff or, like, you know, educating the public on, like, "These are the butterflies that are here," or, like, "This is what an animal bone looks like," something like that.

01:16:21.770 - 01:16:41.480

So, yeah, I'm more—I'm more likely to just stop and be like, "What is the name of this weed?" Or, like, it's really fun for me to do that. Yeah. Getting to know native plants and animals and birds and stuff. That keeps me pretty busy, honestly, [laughs] like, those three things.

01:16:44.460 - 01:17:02.300

Yeah, I think that's—that would be the main things. Nice. So, is that, like, tour guiding with the public or is it—? There's a lot of different ways that you can sort of fulfill your volunteer hours at certain parks

01:17:03.420 - 01:17:20.940

that are primarily managed by the Texas master naturalists. You can—I think once you gain a certain level of, like, expertise in a, like, body of knowledge, like, there's, like, the "plant expert" or, like, the "bird expert," where you can lead interpretive walks, I guess, with the public.

01:17:21.140 - 01:17:39.240

I don't see myself doing that necessarily any time soon. But, it's also, like, you could be the one actually planting new native plants or, you know, helping to maintain a tree or, like, pulling up invasive

01:17:39.950 - 01:18:00.270

things. And the Natural History Museum or different park events sometimes, you know, TMN will have a table and pull out a little suitcase of, like, you know, different kind of, like, sets of objects

01:18:00.270 - 01:18:14.950

that are, like, teaching opportunities for whoever walks by. Yeah. Sometimes tour guides, sometimes not. Awesome, that sounds really fulfilling, as–as someone who loves nature. Mmm, yeah, I hope so.

01:18:15.280 - 01:18:31.610

Well, I-I wanted to have a little bit more knowledge to integrate and to offer people as I, like, develop future projects, so. And my last question for today is if you could go back in time and give a piece of

01:18:31.650 - 01:18:58.360

advice to your younger self, what would you say? Mmm...hmm...I would say...I don't know, like, a combination of, like, "Figure

01:19:04.040 - 01:19:26.930

out what you love to do," I guess, and not—"Don't worry too much about, like, looking good to other people." Yeah, or worrying too much

01:19:27.350 - 01:19:49.290

about being accepted even, or, like, accomplishment. But yeah, I think at the same time, living with an open heart is hard, but more real, I guess.

01:19:52.750 - 01:20:08.850

Yeah. Kind of general, but, you know, I think it can apply to a lot of things. I think as artists, it's easy to seek accomplishment—or even a student, right?

01:20:09.050 - 01:20:26.040

Like, as a sort of protective measure, to gain approval or to have a sense of, like, "You're worth something if you do something really well." But yeah. I think trying to move through life vulnerably,

01:20:29.990 - 01:20:46.840

but, like, sort of building strength through your relationships and sort of, like, grounding spiritually, I think is a—it's a more solid way forward, yeah. I think that's really good

01:20:48.210 - 01:21:05.670

advice. So, that's all the prepa—the all the questions I have prepared today. But do you have anything else that you want to add? I don't know. I guess, like, whoever is—comes across this interview or is doing

01:21:05.710 - 01:21:25.450

research on Asian American, you know, experiences in Houston...good luck [laughs]. Yeah, I'm finding more and more that, like, there's just so much

01:21:25.760 - 01:21:41.770

diversity in experience, you know? Even those who have stayed in Houston the whole time, you know, people's lives diverge in ways of thinking, diverge—and then if you're bringing in, you know, experiences from elsewhere.

01:21:44.970 - 01:22:03.120

Yeah, there's no one way of being Asian American in Houston. And I certainly hope also that, you know, we all come to have a better way of relating with Asia as well.

01:22:04.070 - 01:22:22.780

And yeah, I think when I grew up, it was, like, I think I called one of my friends a FOB and, like, very nonchalant about it, and she was so offended. I was like, "What? That's what you are," [laughs] right, like? And the only time I felt proud about being Asian

01:22:23.810 - 01:22:42.760

American was once the sort of like AZN trend came up where it was, like, I don't know, we, like, pretended to be gangster or something, but, like, in an Asian way, and it was cool all of a sudden, instead of being laughed at. But yeah, I-I'm concerned for people who grow

01:22:43.120 - 01:23:01.630

up in that kind of environment where, like, we're just grasping at ways to kind of form our identity. But yeah, I'd say learning about our own history and our own way of relating to who we are and

01:23:04.090 - 01:23:19.650

fighting internalized racism, it's a process. So, it's a good thing to remind myself as well. I can be, like, judgmental [laughs] of other Asians who, you know, reveal that they think differently or something.

01:23:19.650 - 01:23:34.770

But, yeah, thanks for interviewing me I guess, and best of luck with others. Yeah, thank you so much. And yeah, I definitely agree. I think growing up here, it can be kind of hard sometimes to feel proud

01:23:35.510 - 01:23:47.340

that you're Asian. But yeah, I think it's a work in progress for a lot of people. [NK: Mmm, yeah.] Yeah. So, it was a pleasure talking with you and have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much.

01:23:47.370 - 01:23:52.080

Thanks. You too. Good luck with your studies. [EM: Thank you so much.] Bye. Bye.