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GP: Today is Thursday, July 20th, 2023. GP: My name is Grace Park and I'm interviewing Dr. GP: Minjae Kim on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice GP: University. So first, I'll be asking you a few questions related

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GP: to your early life. GP: When and where were you born? MK: So I was born in Seoul, South Korea. MK: I was born in 1988.

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GP: How would you describe your childhood and adolescence years in Korea, and GP: specifically, what are some of the special holidays, traditions, or GP: memories you recall growing up? MK: Yes. So I don't think—so I grew up

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MK: in–in Seoul, South Korea, for my—until I went MK: to Colorado for high school. MK: So I was in Korea until when I was 16. MK: And I had a relatively, you know, normal but privileged

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MK: childhood in Korea. MK: Like, for example, so my parents and, you know, me and my sister. MK: So I have an older sister. MK: We lived in this southern part of Seoul where, you know, I went to a

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MK: very, you know, very good school, although, you know, I went to public school, but public MK: schools in that part are, you know, very good. MK: And, you know, so I was very privileged MK: that way. So my, you know, my parents were from, like, this southern,

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MK: you know, southwestern part of Korea—of South Korea. MK: So, you know, my grandparents still lived in that part when I was little. MK: So on big holidays, like, you know, like Chuseok, or like, you know, MK: or the New Year's, we would drive down there and, you know, we would drive,

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MK: like, I don't know, like, 12 hours. MK: Even though, you know, Korea is a relatively small country, like, it would take that long MK: . And we would go there, spend, you know, three, four days and we would come MK: back. And when I was little, you know, my father still, you know—most people still

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MK: worked on Saturdays– Saturdays were like a half holiday. MK: So, you know, my–my father would go to work. MK: My mom, you know, we were a relatively very traditional family, you know, MK: for better or worse.

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MK: So my mom mostly worked at home, you know, to take care of me–to take MK: care of me and my–my sister. MK: So, you know, like, I had a, you know, I would MK: say a very privileged background, you know, where I didn't have to worry

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MK: about, you know, the food or security, stuff like that. MK: And I could just focus on studying even though I was not very good at it. MK: And I could just, you know, worry about hanging out with my friends, MK: essentially.

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GP: I see. The next question is what were your parents' occupations and what are GP: some of the values and lessons that your parents instilled in you? MK: Yeah. So my mom used to work in MK: essentially, you know, we would call it like a Federal Reserve of Korea.

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MK: So she used to work there until she got married. MK: And then, you know, she quit to, you know, to take care of MK: us. And then my father worked in the finance industry, although, you know, MK: like, he—it's interesting because, like, whenever people meet

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MK: him, my father, they would– they would always MK: ask me or my sister, like, if my father is a teacher or a professor because he was always MK: kind of like a, he always has had that vibe. MK: And also just a little bit more background is, my sister is also a

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MK: faculty member at Carnegie Mellon University. MK: She's also a professor. MK: So me being also an academic, I think there's a reason for that. MK: And the reason is I think my father and mom—mother, always just like, they

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MK: never, like, you know, kind of put, you know, their own MK: thoughts, you know, they–they never, like, enforced their thoughts into our heads. MK: They always kind of ask us to think about it, think about different stuff. MK: And, you know, had us come up with our own answers.

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MK: Sometimes it backfires in that, you know, when I was in, you know, MK: the 12, 13, 14, you know, I would want to do whatever I MK: wanted to do. MK: So, you know, and they sometimes didn't like the answers that I came up with, but they

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MK: always kind of had me think about stuff, and, you know, that kind of MK: conversations that happened at the lunch tables and the dinner tables, they really, MK: definitely helped me think about stuff in our own way, which I think was a–was a big MK: impetus in, you know, a lot of what, what me and my sister are doing right now.

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GP: I see. The next question is what was your favorite subject in school and what were some GP: of your aspirations or any dream career as a child? MK: I see. So I–I always liked social studies. MK: I identify myself as a sociologist right now, so somebody who studies

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MK: organizations, a sociologist who studies organizations in the business school. MK: And I've always liked that subject. MK: I liked history, you know, my–my high school didn't have, like, a social studies as MK: a subject, so I liked history.

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MK: I also liked English. So it was always social sciences. MK: I never had a question about, like, whether I would major in anything related to MK: social sciences. I always knew that, you know, it was a question of which of the MK: social sciences I would major in, in college.

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MK: I did not like, you know, math or science, you know, I still am not a very MK: good math or science person. MK: So that was—what was the other question? MK: Sorry.

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GP: What were some of your aspirations or any dream careers as a child? MK: Yeah. So, I don't know. MK: At one point, I wanted to be like a journalist. MK: Kind of the investigative journalist.

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MK: At one point, I wanted to be like, a lawyer. MK: I always wanted to do something kind of along MK: that line. Kind of like asking questions and trying to answer. MK: Although, you know, they do, you know, investigative journalists and lawyers, they

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MK: do things very differently. MK: I never thought of, like, an academic as a profession or a career that I, MK: you know, wanted to be, partly because I didn't really know what it entailed. MK: You know, most people, you know, including some of the students that I teach, probably

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MK: think that, you know, I just teach and that's all I do. MK: Which is fair, you know? MK: That's all they see. MK: You know, but like, more of what academics do, at least at Rice

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MK: University, have to do with, like, research. MK: And, you know, it's–it's hard to know what research is until you do it or until you see MK: it and stuff like that. So I didn't really have a good idea about it. MK: So that's, you know, so lawyer or the—or journalist were kind of

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MK: the kind of oscillating thoughts when I was growing up. GP: I see. GP: Next, to talk a little bit about your immigration experience. GP: Could you tell us when you moved to the States and how and why it happened?

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MK: Mhm. So as I had said before, I, you know, come from a MK: very privileged background. MK: So when I was finishing up my middle school in Korea, MK: I did not want to go to high school in Korea.

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MK: And one of the reasons was because, you know, there's a–there's a high level of MK: competition in South Korean education system. MK: And I always saw my sister who is one year older, MK: she, you know, she's always been a good student.

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MK: And I saw her and I was, like, I'm not going to be able to do that. MK: So a part of me, a big part of me was like, you know, I want to escape this education MK: system. I wanted to, you know, play soccer. MK: You know, if you go to high school in Korea, you–you don't play soccer as often.

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MK: So that was a big part, and I could, you know, I was in–was in–in the MK: privileged position to be able to ask my parents to send me off–off to–to school MK: in the US. MK: So we essentially started looking at different schools in the US and,

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MK: you know, it was relatively late in the cycle. MK: I couldn't go to public school in the US because I didn't have citizenship or a green MK: card or anything. MK: And so I had to go to a private school and it was relatively late in the cycle of the

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MK: private school. So I just ended up applying to a kind of a handful of private schools in MK: the US. So and then, I ended up choosing Colorado, MK: not because I knew anything about Colorado, but because, you know, it had the same MK: latitude as Korea.

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MK: So I was, like, "Oh, it must be kind of a similar weather kind of stuff." So MK: we-I chose Colorado and then we-I came in 2004 MK: when I was, I think when I was 15. MK: So, that's essentially when I came and I started high school.

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MK: So that's–that's kind of the beginning of my chapter almost, you know, 19 years ago. GP: I see. To elaborate on that move a little bit, so, what was the transition from GP: Korea to the States like, and what were some of the most striking differences that you GP: noticed?

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MK: Yeah. So the–the transition, I think MK: was, you know, relatively smooth for–for a couple MK: of different reasons. One was that I went to a boarding school. MK: So the boarding school had a lot of kids away from home.

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MK: So I didn't necessarily feel like I was the only one away from home. MK: You know, other people also didn't have parents with them when they went–when they MK: went to my high school. So that was in a way helpful. MK: And my–my high school had a lot of other Korean students as well.

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MK: So that–that was helpful too. MK: Another reason was, you know, like, I was young MK: enough to be able to kind of pick up different stuff. MK: I could speak English relatively well, I think.

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MK: I always say that I spoke English well enough to be able to, you know, understand MK: things in the classroom, but I really couldn't understand what was going on outside MK: of the classroom because, you know, the language that you use, the vernacular you use MK: outside the classroom is slightly different.

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MK: So, you know, but I knew enough to be able to get by and then, MK: you know, I could—I was young enough to kind of have the–have the learning curve go MK: up. The–the biggest difference might have been, you MK: know, I was in a school setting, so it was a relatively controlled setting.

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MK: So in a way, a lot of differences that I felt came later when I MK: was in college, when I was interacting with, you know, quote unquote, "real people outside MK: of school," you know, like to be able to learn about, you know, different MK: factors of inequality in the US, you know, different kind of social stratification in

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MK: the US that might have been different or that I did not, you know, appreciate when I MK: was in Korea. MK: Stuff like that. But the biggest difference that I felt when I was in high school was essentially, like,

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that they didn't put that much pressure on studying, which was helpful for me at that point because I was very, like, you know, I want to do, you know, what I want to do essentially. So I would have, kind of—it would have backfired essentially if somebody was telling me that.

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And also, like, that, you know, it was lots of–lots of—what, kind of, drew people were self-motivation. You know, people–people did what they wanted to do. Like, I had a friend who was really into films.

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And, you know, she was, you know, making all these films. And, you know, she was kind of volunteering her time to do so. You know, nobody was telling her to do so. And then, you know, she was essentially just going after her passion.

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So that was very different, you know, that was allowed by the high school structure. And, you know, it's definitely both ways, but that was the biggest difference when I started high school. GP: I see. So to talk a little bit about your immigration experience now,

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GP: I see that you've been at Rice/Houston since 2020. GP: So how would you describe the Asian American community in Houston in comparison GP: with other cities that you've lived in? MK: I see. So...to be honest, and I

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MK: think it would be the case for a lot of people who moved during the Covid, I don't MK: think I know the city as well as I should. MK: For two reasons. MK: One is that because I moved in the middle of the Covid, so I couldn't get out as much.

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MK: The second reason is that my wife actually lives in New York right now. MK: New York City. So I go back and forth quite a bit. MK: So, you know, that definitely costs my time spent in Houston. MK: So I don't know the city of Houston, not as well as I should.

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MK: Not because of, you know, of how Houston is, just because of the timing and my personal MK: situation, so far. MK: So, given that, MK: the—so Houston community, so the Korean community, I don't

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MK: know-for that reason, I don't know as much about the–the Korean American MK: or the Asian American community in Houston. MK: One thing that I noticed was MK: that—and another factor is, like, the–the way people look

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MK: at me is also different. MK: Not because you know how Houston is, but because now I'm no longer a student. MK: I've always been in some kind of a student position before Rice. I was a postdoc at Northwestern, you know, in Evanston or

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Chicago before here. But, you know, that's still—kind of is like a student. So–so I think–I think that part is also different. What I, you know, like about Houston and Asian American community

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is it seems a little bit more integrated, than maybe Boston, Chicago or definitely Colorado. Both, you know, within the Asian American community, but also between the Asian American community and the, you know, other communities.

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I see Houston, as you know, for whatever reason, more integrated in many different ways that way. I don't know if it is, you know, statistically or factually true. Like, you know, there are my colleagues, you know, who study the social integration.

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So, you know, I should ask them about it, but it seems like the–the Asian American communities are more integrated. And I, you know, I enjoy—that kind of makes me easier to kind of go back and forth.

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That community and the–the outer kind of the community as well. So that's kind of something that I, you know, think about how I think about the Asian American community in Houston. GP: I see. And adding on a little bit, out of Korea

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GP: and the different US cities that you have lived in, which place would you call home GP: and why? MK: It's hard. MK: Yeah, that definitely is hard...The first answer

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MK: I would give is, like, I don't know. MK: And the second answer is, you know, so my parents still live in MK: Korea. So if I had to pick one place, I would call that MK: home. But at the same time, like, I feel very, very close to Colorado.

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MK: Lots of—most of my friends are in Colorado, my high school friends at MK: least, and I go there, like, you know, once every other year or once MK: every year. And whenever I do that, I really feel at home. MK: So it was a big moment for me to take my now-wife but

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MK: then-girlfriend to Colorado. MK: And you know that, you know, even though I have no relatives in MK: Colorado right now, so–so that you know, MK: and I think some people have told me that, like, the first place that they immigrated to

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MK: is, you know, their–their American home or something. MK: That's definitely true to me. MK: That's–that's been the case since I moved here. MK: Yeah.

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GP: That was a difficult question, but thank you for your response. MK: Oh, of course. Yeah. GP: And now to move on to some questions regarding your college GP: experience and education.

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GP: Could you describe your undergraduate years at the University of Chicago in terms GP: of your academic interest or how you changed as a person throughout the four GP: years? MK: Yeah. So I often, you know, tell my

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MK: wife or other people that I'd be, like, I formed my personality when I was in high MK: school and I kind of formed who I am as an academic when I was at UChicago. MK: So essentially I–I just studied a lot at Chicago. MK: I mean, the place is a little bit of a pressure cooker that makes you do that.

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MK: Also, like my high school was, it was a, you know, very, very good private boarding MK: school. But it was not like a, you know, super academic pressure cooker. MK: So it was a little bit of a culture shock in a way that, like, you know, everyone was MK: very intellectually driven and academic.

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MK: So I had to essentially play a little bit of catch up. MK: And I learned more from, like, my peers than from MK: classrooms. Like, you know, the conversations that happened in the dorm and MK: on Saturday nights. Like, I learned more from them than in classrooms.

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MK: And I had–I—before that, I had never been in that, you know, that MK: kind of environment. Even though, like, you know, my, my friends from high school are MK: very, very smart, We just did not have that kind of the environment. MK: You know, talk about that kind of intellectually stimulating things.

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The–the—and also, UChicago was the first time that I essentially got exposed to the broader kind of Asian American or the Korean American community, because in Colorado I lived in the dorm, you know, there were only a handful of other Korean

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students. We were all, you know, young enough that, or little enough that, you know, but in, you know, the–there were more kind of diverse Asian American community in–in college I think, you know for most people's case as well. So that was definitely a big eye opening thing too.

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Like I learned that, you know, oh, these you know—there are these kind of, you know, the direct imports of the Korean culture here, you know, very, very different kind of transformation of the Korean culture there. You know, absence of Korean culture there.

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So it was–it was definitely a learning curve to kind of get to know the Korean American and the Asian American community. GP: I see. Did you have any professors, mentors, or fellow GP: students who left a significant impact on your life, either academically,

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GP: socially, or otherwise? MK: Yes. Academically, there were a few people. MK: One, you know, there- you know, I still keep in touch with them, MK: partly because they are in kind of our field—my current field too.

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MK: You know, they–they definitely—you know, two of them, MK: Amanda Sharkey and Gary Herrigel, they really kind of MK: have–have—had a big intellectual/academic influence on me. MK: You know, like, I still, to some extent, I still think like them and stuff like

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MK: that. There was another professor whose name is Cheol-Sung Lee, who is, you MK: know, back in Korea now who-who was a faculty member at UChicago. MK: He-he had a big influence on me. MK: You know, he's, you know, he's Korean.

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MK: And he was really, like, the first Korean academic that I got to know. MK: And he was, you know, studying things that were very, very interesting. MK: So I think either implicitly or explicitly, I think I learned of him MK: as a role model.

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MK: You know, he was very active. MK: He was, you know, he was very successful in his career. MK: Also, he was, I think, you know, he's a very good person, you know. MK: So even though, like, I was not really personally close with him, you know,

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MK: I—he had a big- kind of the role model kind of influence on me that way. GP: I see. Thank you for your response, and how would you compare and contrast GP: your education experience in Korea versus the States, both from a GP: student and an instructor point of view?

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MK: I see. So from the student point of view, I think, there was a MK: lot more freedom in the US that I–I really liked MK: that I could kind of go off and do my own thing, which MK: was a—which I really enjoyed and I think that really made me—they

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MK: really allowed me to become the academic that I am right now. MK: At the same time, I MK: think—my mom always tells me, like, I MK: study only what I want to study.

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MK: So and like, you know, in general, like, I'm not interested in the things that I'm not MK: interested in. You know, and I don't do the things that I don't want to do. MK: So, like, that kind of attitude kind MK: of carried through me.

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MK: Whereas in the Korean education system, you would need to study what even if you don't MK: want to study that, you know, and to some extent you learn from that. MK: You know, you are not, you know, you–you open your eyes to MK: new things that you didn't think you would learn anything from.

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MK: So I think I'm a little bit kind of shoehorned that MK: way because I've been in the–the US education system. As an instructor, I only know of the kind of the US system. I've never been an instructor in Korea, so I know less about that.

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But it's interesting, like, part of what people often say is like, oh, like I grew up in, you know, like somebody–somebody would say, like, oh, they grew up in, you know, Korea. So, like, they–they do things in a very formulaic way and stuff like

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that. And I always say, like, the Korean education system really got me to think creatively, partly because I had to do the things that I didn't want to do. And it, like, pushes you to different directions. So in a way, I think I often disagree with those

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statements because, like, the Korean education system pushes you to think about ways—in different ways, whereas the US education system has made me do, you know, allowed me to do the things that I want to do, but sometimes, you know, lets me do, you know, kind of get shoehorned in one way.

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Yeah. GP: I see. Now to jump into some questions regarding your career. GP: Could you tell us how you came to pursue a career in teaching and specifically a GP: university professor?

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GP: And also, why is teaching important to you and what do you hope to achieve GP: as a professor? MK: Yeah, of course. MK: So I think—so as a–as a faculty

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MK: member, like, the teaching as well as research, I think MK: they are very intertwined. MK: And I've always been interested in teaching, MK: especially undergrads.

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MK: MBAs too, definitely, and MBAs think in a very different way than undergrads. MK: So I learn different things from teaching them. MK: Partly because I want them to do critical thinking. MK: And I think the–the way in which that—kind of learning how to

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MK: think is the—is a big part that I try to, I don't know if I'm always successful, that I MK: try to make sure that my students are able to learn in the—in my classrooms. MK: It's always, you know, I often learn more than I teach when I MK: teach. So, you know, like, the topics that I think I talk about

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MK: in each class, year after year, are similar. MK: Not exactly the same, but similar. MK: The–the conversations that happen from—on those topics are very, very different year to MK: year. That's sometimes—that often reflects how much they are teaching

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MK: me and in their own critical thinking way. MK: At the undergrad level, they're already at the level where they can kind of think about MK: things in a very, very critical way. MK: So–so that's kind of the biggest pleasure I get.

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MK: Like it's more of the conversations and I would imagine—I've never taught a high school MK: or middle schoolers, so, but, I would imagine that, you know, that's more MK: achievable with the undergrad, you know, university teaching, college teaching. MK: So that's definitely pulled me in.

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GP: I see. GP: The next question would be, could you describe your experience of teaching at the GP: Jones Graduate School of Business? GP: And what would you say are some of the most impactful moments in your teaching career at

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GP: Rice so far? MK: Yes. So the—I mean, one thing that I MK: really enjoy about teaching at Jones is that–that kind MK: of going off of the same theme, like, the students are very motivated, very smart,

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MK: very driven to really push me and, you know, kind of teach me stuff as MK: well. Whether it is, like, kind of the–the substantive stuff about, like, what's MK: going on in the business or the economy or the society, but also, like, they–they think MK: about—they-they kind of push me to think in different ways than I–than I had thought

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MK: before. So MK: the–the—sorry. MK: Also, and also the one thing that I really enjoy, both at the MBA level and the MK: undergrad level, is that–that they come from very diverse

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MK: backgrounds. Not only kind of personally, but also like a disciplinary. MK: Like, you know, some of them come from engineering, some of them come from, you MK: know, humanities. MK: Partly because they, you know, often the business, they're kind of the second–second

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MK: major. So that—and you know, like I am really able to learn a lot MK: from them. You know, when–when they come from different field they really give me a MK: different perspective. So I think I would imagine that that's particular to MK: Jones School.

00:26:06.120 - 00:26:18.130

MK: Jones Graduate School of Business. MK: Because, you know, partly because people shop around different business classes and that's MK: really helped me. GP: Adding on to your response a little bit.

00:26:18.220 - 00:26:29.840

GP: So you mentioned, like, the diversity of the backgrounds in students. GP: How do you think your background, and kind of your upbringing influences your GP: teaching? MK: Oh yeah, definitely.

00:26:29.860 - 00:26:46.040

MK: So, it helps me in two MK: ways. One is MK: that–that MK: it always—I don't know if I'm always good at it, but at least it sensitizes me to

00:26:46.040 - 00:27:02.360

MK: kind of the fact that there are different perspectives out there, that the perspective MK: that I'm teaching them is not the only perspective that they will have or they MK: should have. I think that's definitely it. MK: The second thing is more pedagogically or kind of as a strategy.

00:27:02.360 - 00:27:18.620

MK: I often use my kind of the immigrant slash racial MK: status as an example. MK: So I teach one of the topics that I teach is, you know, discrimination. MK: And I explicitly ask them as an exercise–I explicitly ask

00:27:18.620 - 00:27:31.760

MK: them, you know, what are some of the reasons why, you know, the, you know, let's MK: see if they–they see a resume that comes from somebody who went to Rice University MK: versus who did not go to Rice University but who went to a local high school. MK: You know, what would you prefer?

00:27:31.760 - 00:27:44.640

MK: And I have them think about different stuff. MK: I sometimes, you know, and then I have them think about like, you know, between the MK: incarcerated citizen and a non incarcerated citizen. MK: And then I have them think about, you know, an Asian male versus non Asian male when they

00:27:44.640 - 00:27:57.480

MK: are trying to recruit someone for some kind of quantitative job. MK: You know, it's obviously, you know, like, it's obvious in an exercise to kind of push, MK: you know, force them to think about different stuff, you know, different—the MK: factors that are used to discriminate.

00:27:57.480 - 00:28:10.110

MK: And I think that kind of exercise, you know, I can use partly because of my MK: own racial status and the immigrant–immigrant status. MK: Yeah. GP: I see. Thank you for your response.

00:28:10.460 - 00:28:28.860

GP: And the next question is—I saw this—I read a little GP: bit about this on your resume, but I'm interested in the Granovetter's GP: weak tie theory, and I see that you've made a study on this theory. GP: So could you elaborate on your study a little bit?

00:28:29.220 - 00:28:45.630

MK: I see. So–so that study MK: is–is a co-authored study with one of my—kind of the PhD MK: advisors at MIT. MK: And the study—this is a review study, which means that it's essentially a review

00:28:45.630 - 00:28:58.680

MK: of the literature that has talked about that theory. MK: So it's not really like a quote unquote "original study" in that I have some kind of MK: a new theory around it. MK: But it's essentially kind of assessing, you know, how much do we know about the theory, h

00:28:58.680 - 00:29:13.700

MK: ow much do we not know about that theory and stuff like that. MK: So, you know, as with any sciences, both the social sciences and the physical sciences or MK: biological sciences, there is a theory and then there are—there is MK: evidence, you know.

00:29:13.700 - 00:29:27.760

MK: And this weak ties theory is essentially that somebody is MK: more likely to get a job through a weak tie than a strong tie. MK: And that came across as very counterintuitive when it was published, which MK: is in 1973.

00:29:28.000 - 00:29:43.990

MK: That—partly because people always expected to get jobs from, you know, close friends or MK: family members or something like that. MK: And, you know, the—it came, you know, and his theory was that people are more likely to MK: get jobs through weak ties because weak ties are more likely to be ties to

00:29:43.990 - 00:30:00.430

MK: somebody who is in a different social circle than you are. And because, you know, that tie is more likely to be weak, but that tie is also more likely to be quote unquote, too "distant" or long—socially "long." So they're going to give you different kind of information than the one that you already have.

00:30:00.580 - 00:30:11.260

So your family and friends are going to know the–the information that you already have, the job information that you already have. Whereas somebody who is connected to you through a weak tie is more likely to give you information that you don't know.

00:30:11.260 - 00:30:27.130

So that's why that person is more likely to give you the–the–the job essentially. Job information that's helpful. You know, and subsequent—you know, for the past 50 years that there has been—there have been a lot of studies that try to test this empirically, meaning they try to kind of give

00:30:27.130 - 00:30:40.840

evidence to–to it one way or another. So that-that review piece, that piece was in the paper, was essentially trying to assess, you know, how much do we know, like, what kind of evidence do we have for the theory? What kind of evidence do we not have for the theory, you know, what kind of questions

00:30:40.840 - 00:31:01.210

still remain? So that was essentially what we're trying to do in that paper. GP: Thank you. Next question, it's more centered on GP: your study itself, but how valuable is it for corporations and other GP: institutions to understand leadership, organizational dynamics and the use of

00:31:01.210 - 00:31:14.120

GP: networking? And how would you say—or would you say that GP: these elements also apply in government or schools or any other type of GP: associations? MK: So, definitely, yes.

00:31:14.240 - 00:31:32.900

MK: So one of the big umbrellas that we—I study, and my MK: colleagues in the same department study, is essentially the umbrella of organizations. MK: So-so the dynamics-the dynamics and the theories that we try to come up with MK: about, let's say, the private corporations or the public corporations, they should to

00:31:32.900 - 00:31:50.390

MK: some extent, not always, to some extent apply to governments, nonprofits, schools and MK: stuff like that. So, my-my colleagues are mostly psychologists MK: who study kind of the, you know, how the individuals respond to different kind of, you MK: know, things that are happening in their organization or outside the organization.

00:31:50.390 - 00:32:06.670

MK: And I'm more of a sociologist who's tried to kind of put that in a—kind of the–kind of MK: the-the broader perspective, so to speak. MK: The—so yeah. MK: So the—so I specifically—so I teach my classes

00:32:07.150 - 00:32:22.540

MK: called the Leading People in Organizations. MK: I teach—I study relatively little about leadership per se, but I MK: study more about how individuals kind of interact with their organization or MK: the-the kind of society more generally.

00:32:22.540 - 00:32:38.680

MK: So I think that's definitely applicable to the government and education. MK: That said, obviously, you know, many things are different in that, you know, MK: the—some of the incentive systems in the government are going to be different from the MK: incentive systems in the–in the kind of the for-profit corporations.

00:32:38.680 - 00:32:57.720

MK: So they would obviously, you know, need to be taken into account. GP: I see. I read this from an article featuring you GP: as one of the 2022 best undergraduate professors, and you mentioned that GP: you'd like to see more students doing research in business school.

00:32:58.080 - 00:33:16.260

GP: And I believe you mentioned this in one of the earlier questions as well. GP: And doing research in business school seems a little contrary GP: to the common misconception, but could you refer GP: to a few topics that you consider to be valuable for students

00:33:17.160 - 00:33:30.300

GP: researching business? MK: Yes. So let me think. MK: So one of the things, one of the papers that I have published with–with a MK: colleague is, this paper on

00:33:30.300 - 00:33:48.280

MK: ratings on–on the online platform. MK: So this—we essentially look at, we–we look at beer. MK: So, you know, first of all, favorite topic of college students, and also MK: we essentially look at how reviewers on the—this platform—this online platform

00:33:48.280 - 00:33:57.880

MK: is essentially Yelp for beer. MK: You know, like, the people go on there. MK: It's called Beeradvocate.com. MK: You know, they go on there and then they rate different beers and stuff like that.

00:33:58.950 - 00:34:17.130

MK: And we essentially look at how that review ratings change. MK: And, you know, do they—you know, the beer presumably stays the same in terms of its MK: quality. But the review ratings change depending on who have—who has reviewed the MK: beer before, who, you know, and what kind of people have reviewed the-the beer before.

00:34:17.130 - 00:34:34.440

MK: So we try to—we, you know, try to kind of get the data from that MK: website and try to predict kind of what the next rating is going to be. MK: And we have our own theory about it and we test that theory and stuff like that. MK: I think it would be super cool if–if cool for undergrads to kind of get involved in

00:34:34.440 - 00:34:52.590

MK: this kind of project because they can really look at, you know, how do MK: consumers respond to this kind of the market dynamics? MK: And also it kind of gives—they can really learn essential skills if they want to be, MK: let's say, data scientists or some kind of–some kind of data person—big data person

00:34:52.590 - 00:35:10.810

MK: and different kind of, in the firms, even if they don't go into academia because they can MK: run different kind of statistical programs, they can learn how the data are structured. So those elements, I think can be learned through the research. I think another aspect of the–the research that-that is perhaps

00:35:10.810 - 00:35:27.250

underappreciated is that they really have to come up with a problem solving skills. You know, it's–it's often that, you know, there is rarely a straight line from, you know, the beginning to the end in research. There are always unexpected turns and people really have to come up with the creative

00:35:27.250 - 00:35:40.010

solutions. And I think that can be really learned in research. That kind of problem solving skills—I mean any jobs, have some kind of problem solving skills and I think research definitely has that too. GP: I see.

00:35:40.010 - 00:35:56.400

GP: How do you see yourself motivating and inspiring students to develop the GP: enthusiasm towards studying social dynamics as a career and better yet, to pursue a GP: career in teaching? MK: Yes. Well, first of all, I don't think it's–i t's

00:35:57.720 - 00:36:08.040

MK: for everyone. MK: Not because, you know, it's hard or easy just because, you know, people are interested MK: in different things. MK: I think–I think it's for the people

00:36:08.040 - 00:36:27.710

MK: who are very intrinsically curious MK: because I've seen a lot of cases where people do research to, you MK: know, quote unquote, "change the world." And I think that can MK: be done. It's not impossible, but there are a lot of steps between doing the research and

00:36:27.710 - 00:36:43.700

MK: changing the world. There are lots of steps that can be, I think, done more effectively MK: by somebody who is not a researcher. MK: So I think somebody who really is interested in the phenomenon and the social MK: dynamics in and of itself, I think that's kind of the–the better–better job

00:36:43.700 - 00:36:54.290

MK: for them. Something that I always encourage people to do is essentially, you know, try MK: your hands on it first. MK: You know, it's a relatively low cost thing. MK: You know, they can try for a semester.

00:36:54.290 - 00:37:06.380

MK: They can do it during the school year. MK: You know, they don't have to take the whole internship out of it. MK: And they can really, you know, they can—they can try it relatively MK: easily and they can work with a professor that they really liked.

00:37:06.550 - 00:37:25.190

MK: You know, so that can–that can be often a good motivation too. GP: I see. For a couple questions regarding specifically GP: Asian-Americans in organizational behavior. GP: As an Asian-American yourself, have you ever considered research on social causes

00:37:25.190 - 00:37:41.380

GP: from the perspective of different ethnic groups or sampling groups of different GP: origin? MK: Yeah. I've—I actually always think about it and I always–always want to do MK: it. But part of it is that–that it's not really

00:37:41.650 - 00:37:58.630

MK: my, like, expert field, that I sometimes feel a little bit afraid MK: to kind of go into different field, partly because I just don't know much about it. MK: But I'm an- I'm definitely an avid reader of that field. MK: And I think there's a lot to study for the Asian Americans in

00:37:58.630 - 00:38:13.150

MK: the—in organizational kind of dynamics. MK: You know, to take the most recent example, there was the Supreme Court MK: ruling on affirmative action. MK: You know, a lot—there are lots of kind of debates to hash out

00:38:13.330 - 00:38:31.510

MK: between different kind of racial groups, too, about how they are receiving it. MK: I saw some kind of poll about how, you know, perhaps contrary to the, you know, popular MK: beliefs that Asian Americans actually, you know, thought of the–the, you know, the MK: affirmative action as positive before the ruling as well as after.

00:38:31.700 - 00:38:47.840

MK: So-so, you know, but at the same time, you know, what are some MK: of the kind of the perceptions toward the Asian Americans. MK: You know, within the—for the kind of selection into these, you know, these MK: universities as well as how do Asian Americans perceive it.

00:38:47.840 - 00:39:04.390

MK: That's–that's a very organizational problem, as I see it, as well as a kind of a societal MK: problem, too. So, you know, I see a lot of stuff to be MK: done and I hope that I can do it in the near future. MK: I, you know, so that's—yeah.

00:39:04.390 - 00:39:21.730

MK: I hope I can do it sometime in the near future. GP: Yes. Adding on to your response a little bit, what is your view on GP: how Asian Americans are regarded in the American education system GP: in regards to ideas such as model minority?

00:39:22.840 - 00:39:41.400

MK: Yeah. So I think MK: —so it is really, really tough. MK: And I think–I think the MK: part of it is that there is that common kind of stereotype about Asian Americans

00:39:41.400 - 00:39:55.280

MK: as kind of hard working but not creative. MK: You know, the personality wise, like, you know, somebody who is a good follower but not MK: a good leader. MK: But also, you know, kind of like a, you know, quote unquote,

00:39:55.280 - 00:40:12.430

MK: "sneaky." You know, stuff all–all stuff like that-that I think those stereotypes MK: definitely persist and exist. MK: Another aspect of this is, I think as-as with MK: any racial groups, kind of the non-Asian Americans see Asian Americans

00:40:12.430 - 00:40:26.350

MK: as more homogeneous than Asian Americans actually are. MK: First of all, you know, even within Rice University, there is an Asian Americans who MK: are, you know, born and grew up in the US. MK: You know, there are Asian Americans who immigrated when they were little.

00:40:26.350 - 00:40:40.090

MK: There are Asian Americans who came when they, you know, for college, you know, stuff MK: like that. And they have very different backgrounds, you know, different perspectives MK: on things. So I think that kind of diversity is MK: often overlooked.

00:40:40.100 - 00:40:58.450

MK: I think there is a little bit more appreciation of this in the–in the public MK: narrative now, after I think some people found out that, you know, MK: like, that Asian Americans have higher median wage than the white Americans in MK: general, but Asian Americans have the highest variance, meaning, you know, kind of

00:40:58.450 - 00:41:11.320

MK: spread. You know, so that some Asian Americans earn a lot, some Asian MK: Americans earn really little. MK: So I think that heterogeneity is a little bit more appreciated, but MK: it's still not enough.

00:41:11.320 - 00:41:26.490

MK: I think the diversity among Asian Americans is something that should be more MK: appreciated. Yeah. GP: Yeah. Thank you for your input in that. GP: And next to move on-onto a little bit of—about your

00:41:26.490 - 00:41:43.220

GP: identity. What aspect of yourself as an immigrant GP: to the US are you the most proud of? MK: I see. MK: .. Let me

00:41:43.220 - 00:42:02.780

MK: think... MK: I think part of it—I mean, MK: perhaps it–it should be this way, but I am proud MK: of the fact that I still speak relatively good

00:42:03.050 - 00:42:19.430

MK: Korean. Still, you know, MK: have... MK: I'm proud of the fact that I'm still, like, I'm still very Korean in a MK: way that doesn't, you know, that still makes, like, I still

00:42:19.430 - 00:42:29.750

MK: identify myself as Korean. MK: I don't think it's really surprising because I didn't come when I was like, you know, MK: five. I came when I was 15. MK: So I don't think anybody who comes at 15, you know, would forget Korean.

00:42:29.760 - 00:42:44.680

MK: But, you know, I still kind MK: of keep updated, like, I still am updated about, like, the MK: Korean news, you know. MK: I know the Korean news as well as the US news, if not more about Korean news.

00:42:44.680 - 00:43:01.710

MK: And I think that really kind of keeps me grounded. MK: I–I did not appreciate the MK: Korean-ness until, let's say, college. MK: You know, I, you know, I had a very, kind of the binary mindset of like a mainstream US,

00:43:01.800 - 00:43:17.850

MK: which is, you know, white America. MK: And, you know, and kind of the Asian American community as kind of the peripheral. MK: And, you know, after college I kind of started appreciating, MK: you know, what it means to be Asian American in the US a little bit more.

00:43:17.910 - 00:43:29.070

MK: I think part of it is growing up. MK: Part of it is just the time that I spend in the US. MK: Part of it is just meeting more people. MK: So, but I am very proud of the fact that I am, you know, still

00:43:30.000 - 00:43:42.360

MK: very Korean, after spending 19 years in the US. MK: Yeah. GP: I see. Thank you for your response. GP: The next question is, are there any extracurricular activities or hobbies

00:43:42.360 - 00:43:58.560

GP: that you enjoy engaging in? MK: Mhm. So I like playing soccer, but I haven't been able to play soccer as much as I wish I MK: have. My wife and I started, you know, playing MK: tennis. We are horrible at it, but we–we started

00:43:58.920 - 00:44:11.280

MK: playing with one another, and we've been enjoying that a lot. MK: So that's that. MK: My wife is also academic, so she'll actually start as a faculty in MK: engineering at Rice next year.

00:44:11.640 - 00:44:23.380

MK: So one of the things that we're trying to change MK: is that we're trying to pick up more hobbies. MK: We're just, you know, we're deprived of that. MK: So we–we need to pick up more hobbies.

00:44:23.380 - 00:44:39.230

MK: And tennis was definitely one part of that. GP: I see. GP: The next question is how do you want to be remembered? MK: Like, you know, by anybody, like, by students or

00:44:39.980 - 00:44:53.690

MK: people like my friends...? GP: Yeah. If you could specify it for students and GP: then maybe everybody else. MK: I see. For students, I-I want to be remembered as

00:44:53.690 - 00:45:08.960

MK: somebody who, in that—in my class, that they-they MK: thought about things a little bit differently than they would have if they did MK: not take the class. MK: I don't think there is anything that they need to remember or memorize from my

00:45:08.960 - 00:45:25.460

MK: class. But if they think about my class and they were like, MK: "Oh, that gave me a lot of questions. MK: You know, the questions that I could talk about with my roommate kind of in a very MK: intellectual way, you know, on Saturday night." That's kind of what I want my

00:45:25.460 - 00:45:39.280

MK: students to get out of. MK: You know, so, and, you know, I try to structure my class that way, so MK: hopefully they get that out of that. MK: For friends and family, other

00:45:39.280 - 00:45:56.830

MK: people, you know, like, I've been—kind of the running theme is, like, MK: I've been very blessed with the people as well as kind of material MK: stuff. So, I hope that, like, at the end of the day, MK: like, I have given them more than I have been given.

00:45:56.980 - 00:46:12.750

MK: So that, you know, that they–they really felt like that they had a good MK: friend because they–they, you know, a lot of them were—are my good friends and they really MK: kept me going. So, hopefully I can do the same. GP: I see.

00:46:12.750 - 00:46:30.940

GP: And to move on to the last part of the interview, and this will GP: be about a little bit of advice for the future generations. GP: Do you have any advice for Asian American students in general and also for GP: those who are hoping to pursue a career in business and or teaching?

00:46:32.380 - 00:46:48.720

MK: Yeah. MK: Well, as kind of the—so MK: obviously my experience as an Asian American student in high school, MK: college, you know, and beyond is obviously, you know, just one

00:46:48.720 - 00:47:06.310

MK: experience that I think many Asian American students have different kinds of MK: experience. So, you know, just this—to take it as just MK: one answer, one perspective. MK: I—you know, I like to say that, like, you know, struggling is okay.

00:47:06.310 - 00:47:22.930

MK: Like, struggling as, you know, feeling like that you are MK: not part of something that's, like, quote unquote, more "mainstream" MK: or feeling like that you have to, you know, kind MK: of escape Asian-American-ness.

00:47:23.260 - 00:47:37.030

MK: Feeling like that is okay. MK: I think a lot of Asian-American students, not a lot, maybe, like, some that I–I MK: have known before. MK: Some struggle with the fact that they feel that way and they feel guilty about that.

00:47:37.330 - 00:47:51.250

MK: And I think, kind of feeling that MK: way is okay. MK: Because it's not like you are betraying, you know, the Asian-American community or, you MK: know, your racial or ethnic identity.

00:47:51.250 - 00:48:06.400

MK: It's-it's more that, you know, it's just part of, you know how the MK: society is structured that-that we are–we are essentially—we are taught to kind of go MK: through that struggle. And I still struggle with that, I'm sure. MK: You know, I-I still struggle with that.

00:48:06.400 - 00:48:24.880

MK: And, so that, I think that's-that's essentially what I would MK: say. To people who pursue things in the business MK: and-and teaching, I think for the latter, for life in MK: academia. Like I say, you know, just give it a try, you know, like

00:48:25.300 - 00:48:37.990

MK: at the same time, like, you know, feel free to quit after, you know, trying it and not MK: liking it. I think academia is one of the fields that giving a try is MK: easy. It's relatively costless. MK: You can do it during college.

00:48:37.990 - 00:48:50.110

MK: So I think that's the best way to do it. MK: Yeah. MK: So that's what I would say. GP: I see. And the next question is if you could go back in time and give a piece

00:48:50.110 - 00:49:06.680

GP: of advice to your younger self, what would it be? MK: I see. I think part of it is kind of the-the kind of the advice that I would MK: say, like, which is the struggling is okay. MK: I think

00:49:06.680 - 00:49:26.480

MK: another part is—this is relatively trivial, but, MK: I was very uptight when I was in high school and college, like, I was, MK: like, you know, even in college I didn't drink much because I MK: thought that, you know, I would need to study more or something like that.

00:49:26.600 - 00:49:43.100

MK: I think I wish I was let loose a little bit more, you know. MK: I think that's okay, because, you know, if for nothing, like, you MK: can't do that, like when you're working, you know. MK: Like, so I think there are—college definitely is time for

00:49:43.100 - 00:50:00.290

MK: exploring or, you know, or high school and you know kind of the younger self is MK: definitely time for exploring and exploring—and getting lost is okay, you know? MK: I think I was very afraid to get lost. MK: And I think I would tell my younger self that it is okay to get lost a

00:50:00.290 - 00:50:15.910

MK: little bit as well. GP: Yeah. Those are all the questions I've prepared, but did you have anything GP: else that you wanted to add on? MK: I think—the

00:50:15.910 - 00:50:34.080

MK: more—so I've lived in, like you said, I've lived in, you know, Colorado, MK: Chicago, Boston, and back to Chicago, and then Houston. MK: It's like, essentially my fourth kind of place in the US. MK: The more I move around, the more I appreciate the Asian American community.

00:50:34.230 - 00:50:53.640

MK: Even though I might not be an active member in kind of the Asian American community MK: in Houston, and, you know, kind of conversations like this, kind of MK: really—kind of helped me—kind of think more about it. MK: I think it's-it's something that, you know, I

00:50:53.700 - 00:51:07.250

MK: can always think about a little bit more. MK: And so, you know, even when you kind of, like, sent me an MK: email for this interview, kind of MK: puts me in different perspectives.

00:51:07.430 - 00:51:20.420

MK: And then, you know, like, I would have thought differently if I got this email five MK: years ago or ten years ago or something. MK: And, you know, I'm sure I'll think about it differently five years later. MK: So, this kind of project and, you know, as I was kind of thinking about

00:51:20.420 - 00:51:36.940

MK: this, I-I watched some of these kind of the-the HAAA MK: interviews, and they-they definitely, you know, kind of MK: made me think about, you know, different things about the Asian-American community. MK: You know, even about the–the Asian-American community within Rice University.

00:51:36.940 - 00:51:46.920

MK: So, I really appreciate this opportunity too. GP: Yeah. Thank you so much for participating in this interview.