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Today is August 20th at one o’clock in the afternoon. We’re interviewing Dr. Ming-Jer Tsai for the Houston Asian American Archive.

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My name is Priscilla Li. And I’m Steven Loyd. Okay, um, so, we’ll start out with, uh, where and when were you born? Well, okay where…when, [laughs] long time ago.

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Where, I was born in, uh, middle part of Taiwan called, uh, Taichung in the, uh, uh, in a small town called Qingshui. And, uh, so I stayed there ‘til about kindergarten, and I left.

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You left to… Yeah, we went to, uh, southern part of Taiwan because my parents, my father moved to uh, you know, Kaohsiung, so I moved there with them. And, uh, through my elementary school, sixth grade,

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you know, in—in Taiwan, middle school is sixth grade. And in the seventh grade, then I go into the middle school, called, uh, Kaohsiung [Taiwanese word?], first, first uh, middle school of Kaohsiung, for one

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year. Then my father moved again into Taipei, northern part of Taiwan. And, uh, I stay there since. [ Okay.] So then the middle—finished middle school, middle school in Taiwan is from uh, seventh to ninth

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grade. Then from ten to twelve is high school. [Mhm.] And so I stayed ‘til there until college. Finished college over there, yeah. Okay. So can you describe how—what your childhood was like?

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My childhood, my childhood was very simple, right, every people, you know, everywhere, it’s safe. Not so many cars, there’s, you know, you can go out no problem. The kids always go out because every

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family are big family. Right, there’re always a lot of kids and parents who doesn’t really know where they can take care of you like right now. You know, there’s no babysitter needed.

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So you just go out and play in the street or play with your friend, and uh, you know, very simple. In those days, you know, you don’t have uh, toys, right, like right now, my grandkids

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have many, many toys. But those days, you don’t have toys. You make your own toy. So we’re making our own kite, you know, fly the kite, we make our own.

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And uh, we can making, we’re making the…you know, paper crane, paper airplane and everything, you do yourself. That’s from beginning, so, that’s what we do, very simple, simple life, and uh, there’s not, no

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crime to talk about it. You know, there’s—everybody be honest—and people doing things, you know, very simple mind. Mhm. So you had how many siblings?

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Many. [Many?] [laughs] I have six siblings. Okay. And one in, one of uh—the girl is just two years younger than me. She had polio and she died, I think probably about eight years old.

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Okay, so, so that’s one, and then also I have six—five more, five more siblings. And uh I have one older sister, she’s the oldest one in the family. And a younger sister,

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also youngest in the family. And in between are four, four boys. So those are six of them, and uh, so I have five brothers and sisters, yes.

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So were you the second-oldest child, or…? Third. [The third oldest child?] Second boy. Okay, second boy, okay. Yes. Um, so did you play with your siblings out on the streets or with other kids in the

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neighborhood? Uh, all of them. [All of them.] All of them, because, you know, my sister is very different, right, girls uh—girls do different things, those days. And uh, boy play together, most of the time.

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So yes, that’s what we do. Okay. Um, so the neighborhoods that you moved to were about the same—‘cause you moved to, um, the, you were in central, and then you moved south, and then north?

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[Yeah.] So the neighborhoods were about the same? Did you see a difference? Well, neighborhood is really not major difference, except in Taipei they are more crowded. They’re big city. [Mhm.] And Kaohsiung is not a small city, but

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those days, also much more simple. So they do uh, you know—people have their house, usually all the boys and girls living in the same room, you know. Bunk beds, huge bunk bed, and then you’re just sitting over there.

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[laughs] There’s not bedrooms, bathrooms, separate, no, just one—one bathroom for every. Mhm. Um, so uh, how were—how is your relationship with your siblings? Who are you closest to?

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Well, we’re doing very well, very well. I have two brother in Houston. They all immigrate to Houston. I have one sister in Kaohsiung still, and one

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sister in, uh, also Kaohsiung. Two sister both stay in—stay in Kaohsiung. Well, the youngest sister, they went to Saudi Arabia for Aramco, and later they come back, settle down in Kaohsiung.

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Uh, one, another brother, he lives in Las Vegas. [Okay.] So that’s all my sibling, yeah. They all live so far. [laughs] Pretty good.

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So um, what were—what did your parents do? Well, my, my mother is a house—housewife, right, and we, in those days I don’t see any housewife—you know, wife, do any work, you know.

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And uh, you have six kids, seven kids start with, it’s very difficult to have housewife to do the work. My, my father is more businessman, okay. He’s uh, doing the optical, you know, on the, say, the glasses.

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Mhm. Okay. Um, and what kind of principles did they raise you on? Well, work hard and be honest. I think that’s about it, two things that, [unintelligible] my father working very hard. So he don’t even need to teach us, we

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know we need to work hard. And uh, that’s the way I think all my family, you know, they work pretty hard. And uh, that’s the only way you can survive, especially you immigrate into United States, and the only way you can

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do is work hard. Um, what kinds of foods were, um, would they cook in [Well…[laughs]] your cultural traditions? Yes.

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When Taiwanese cook food, okay, usually it’s uh, you know, Chi—very similar to Chinese food. But uh, flavor a little bit different, you know, different area, different kind of flavor. In Taiwan, the

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Taiwanese food is a little bit more bland. It’s not as spicy, you know, we don’t use sp—the pepper, hot pepper. I’ve never seen my mother cooking anything with hot pepper. [Okay.] So, but uh, still tasty I

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think, still tasty. And as a, you know, local food, it’s not really anything special like Chinese food. Definitely it’s not American food, French food, Italian. I don’t think that my mother know how to cook

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those. Okay. Um, so where did you go to like, elementary, middle, and high school? [Well…] I know you mentioned middle school. Well, my elementary school is a famous elementary school in Kaohsiung,

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they call the, uh, Example Primary school [Okay.] of Kaohsiung. [Mhm.] So it’s supposed the best middle, uh, middle school in Kaohsiung. Okay, so, you know, we went there,

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and the teacher is very tough. Teacher can hit you. [laughs] Physically, okay. And can punish you or whatever. They are not allowed anymore in

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Taiwan. But used to, they’d do that. In the U.S., I remember my son went to primary school, they do discipline. So it’s a, a church school, they do discipline, they hand up, [smacking sound]. [laughs] But

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now it’s not allowed anymore. So those days, I think that school—it’s a very good school. They are more academically-oriented, okay. And uh, not athletic oriented—I think almost all the Taiwan

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schools now are athletically oriented. The only thing we do in uh in the physical activity is playing soccer, okay, because it’s easy, you know, you have a field, you have a ball, and you can kick it along.

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[Mhm.] So that’s what we usually do, yeah. Okay. Um, and in your primary schooling, and like middle-high school, did you have like a favorite teacher or a memorable class?

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Yeah, my—I think my major thing I like is math. [Mhm.] Okay. And it goes through the—high school too, high-school algebra, and geography, and geology, or something.

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And uh, you know, I’m, I’m—excel at those. Physics, I also love physics. [Mhm.] So those are the area I like the most. And I like the teacher, the teachers, [Mhm.] because they can really inspire you.

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So yes, that’s uh, another area—I’m always bad at uh language. Like Chinese, even Chinese, English, I’m never good at it. [laughs] Get by.

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[laughs] Um, so how did you uh, get in, how did you um, apply for colleges and stuff, what was that process like? Well, you know, uh, those days, going from primary school to middle school, you need to take an

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exam. [Mhm.] When exam your score good, then you go to a good, good middle school. Middle school, then go to high school, high school go to college, you also take the entrance exam. [Yeah.] And so that’s what you, you’re taking, right.

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So all through my school year, pretty good actually. I go to the best middle school, high school, and best, you know, college, in Taiwan, okay. That’s the Taiwan— college, National Taiwan University.

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And uh in Taipei middle school and high school were called Jianchung. Jianchung I think is uh, you know, is probably the best school in Taiwan, middle school high school, in Taiwan.

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The judgments to the—I’m sorry, the exam to college, they always go to the good college. [Mhm.] So yes, that’s a, that’s where they take all the exams. [laughs] Okay. So you have to get a certain score to be able to get [Yes.] into your co—? [Yeah.] Okay. So for—fortunately my math, physics,

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chemistry, are very good, otherwise I would be doing poorly, because poli—politics one…at that time in Taiwan you had to study politics, and on politics I’m doing very poorly. I remember I go to high school to college exam, it

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went to 100, right? I get 38. [Ohh.] [laughs] But I still get into the National Taiwan University, so, all the other had to be uh…[Mhm, yeah.] So that’s uh, yeah.

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I hate politics. [all laugh] Um, so in college, what did you major in? I majored, well, you know, it's not what you're interested in [Yeah.], right? When you do the entrance exam you had to fill in the, the priorities,

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right? The first one I like is physics, right, so it’s physics. Then under physics the engineer, then I put in the medical school, and agricultures. So I end up in the [coughs] agricultural chemistry, so that’s my major.

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And then in the, there, I majored in biochemistry. So I graduate with a, you know, agricultural chemistry, and majored in biochemistry. Okay. Um, and were your parents supportive of you?

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Yes, they’re our parents, you know. My father is educated in elementary school only, right. In those days, elementary school educated, it’s not bad, okay. Those time are the—before the war and during the

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war. And during the war, you know, Taiwan was occupied by Japan. And the U.S. bomber would bomb Taiwan like everywhere, bombing. So when I was born—I was told, I don’t know—because we stayed

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during the, almost toward the end of the World War II. And the U.S. armies, U.S. Air Force, bombing Taiwan all the time. [Mhm.] So we all had to go through, run, run, before the airplane come we had

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to run. In those days, I think not too many people had educations. You know, so my father, you know, always thinking education is the most important things. So we’re making all, all six kids all go through

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college. So they are very supportive, you know, because they almost demand us to be—at least go to college. Yeah. Okay. And um, so you majored in biochemistry ‘cause you really liked it, and…? Well…[laughs] you have a choice, I would go to

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biochemistry—chemis—I mean, physics, right? But uh, you know, agricultural chemistry, they had the fermen—fermentation, and they have microbiology, uh, biochemistry, and something, and the others.

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And I think biochemistry was the one only thing that fit me better, so, so I choose the biochemistry. Okay, [Yeah.] um and so then how did you come to the United States? Well, after the college we had to serve in army for one year.

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After one year, then you applied to graduate school. In Taiwan, those days, economy’s still very poor. That’s, uh, after World War II, you know, and Chiang Kai-shek come, dictatorship that time,

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you know, economy is just start booming. And because during the Vietnam War, and the Korean War first, then the Vietnam War, and uh, U.S. spent tremendous amount of money in the war, right, and uh, they had need—place to produce food,

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produce all kinds of things for U.S. soldiers. So Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, they all benefit a lot. And that’s how at that time, economy start to go up, okay.

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But those times when we graduate, there’s not too many job for us. So we say, well, you want to get a better education, you go to graduate school. And that’s the way you go, is go to United States or England, or Japan. So, I would say probably about 70% of people go to

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United States. Maybe 20% go to Japan, and maybe few percentage go to, you know, Europe. [Mhm.] So and that’s the reason I should apply, and uh, get into UC Davis. I get into—actually, I applied for three

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schools, I get into all three. One is Michigan, one is, uh, the, the, in the, Atlanta, what’s that school, private school? Oh, Emory?

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Or… Emory, yes, yes. [Emory? Okay.] And uh, because my professor is from Berkeley, and he know the professor in Berkeley, and then I was recruited to

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UC Davis. And so, you know, he suggest me I should go to UC Davis, so I go to UC Davis. [laughs] [Okay.] At that time I didn’t know any school, what they do, I have no idea when I leave, but that’s what we do.

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Okay. Um, so did you have any expectations coming to the United States? No, not really many expectations, I mean I expect to get a Ph.D. degree, and then, either go back or stay here for the faculty positions.

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And that’s what I do, you know. Yeah in a way, these days, the kids always, you know, what they want is very interesting and they want to go to this place for major in…those days we don’t have much choice.

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You just go and you do the best you can. [Okay.] Yeah. So did you have any culture shocks when arriving? Yes, you know, I mean, one was the language problem, right? [Yeah.] And uh, [clears throat]

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culture, you know, I mean, you know every time you do things, people teach me, tell me all of what it is what we do, St. Patrick’s Day, you know, what we do, when we do that, and things like that.

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And uh, you know, Halloween, we never thought about Halloween, [laughs] what it is. Anyway, we don’t—we still enjoy. Enjoy.

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Yes, a little bit shock, but, you know, get…get used to it. Okay. Um, so how was graduate school like at UC Davis? Length? Um, how was it, yeah, the length of it, and…

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Well, the length is, is short. [Mhm.] I—take me less than four years. And, probably three years, almost four years about, you know.

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I go in there, study in October because of quarter system. And I finish in May. I even attend the graduation. [Mhm.] No, I mean June, finish in June.

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So I even attend the graduation for the, for, for, for the Ph.D. degree. And the four years, I really enjoy it because, you know, there there’s a lot of—UC Davis take a lot of Taiwanese students.

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So when I was there, they have thirty- some graduate students from Taiwan. So it’s a lot of graduate students. [laughs] And so we established a

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relationship, you know, we go out camping together, go out play together, and most of the time you study, you work, so. But I really enjoyed, that’s how all the friends I met, that’s where I met my wife, and then we get married, so it’s a good place.

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[laughs] Okay. So you guys are working in the same lab? Yes. Okay. [Yes.] Um, and she arrived there after you, or before? She’s before me. [Before you?

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Okay.] Couple years before me. [Okay.] She was mostly…she’s—well, you will talk to her. [Mhm.] She mainly(?), you know, high school a bit, and

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the college, and uh, you know, graduate school all in U.S., so. [Okay.] Yeah. And she didn’t need to go through military service. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Um, oh, going back to your military service,

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um, where were you stationed? Like, what did you do during military service? Well, we had, during college we had four months basic training, right? One is the basic training, the

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other one is basic training for…special one. That way we are serve in artillery. So I serve in artillery and basic training. After college, we spend one year.

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So as soon as I graduate college, they send me to a small jinmen [Kinmen - group of islands of the southeastern coast of China] island. That’s a…jinmen. Small jinmen. That’s just uh, across from China, Fujian.

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Very close, frontline. And uh, so we served there for one year, I se—I served as a lieutenant—second lieutenant, I’m sorry. Second lieutenant, lowest officer.

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Second lieutenant. And uh, served there as a forward observer. So you go to front, and artillery in the back, right? Give me one month in back. And um, you go there to observe there and direct the artillery

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where to shoot, [Ohh.] okay. So you shoot from here, you say, “done,” you—they shoot, alright, the first test shoot, come in there, and then you say, “too far, going back how many feet,” or “go forward how

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many feet,” “left how many feet,” “left how many feet.” We were using meter, but that’s, you know, what we do, that way to…but those days, in there is really there is never war. But there a lot of propaganda

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sharing. So we send them—our duty’s send, send the propaganda bomb to send to the other side, and they send us one, so, right. So that’s what we do. So it’s not any stressful at all.

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But it’s so called, they—you know, I have nothing to do with you know frontline. Frontline, they don’t training you. Okay. You’re supposedly to be doing, doing the fighting if it come.

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So they don’t training you, so that’s good. That’s good that means we have nothing to do. [laughs] So we just study, study English, prepare for exam. Mhm.

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For the exam to come to the U.S.? TOEFL. [TOEFL? Okay, TOEFL, okay.] We need the TOEFL exam. Um, so when you were getting your Ph.D., who did you—whose lab did you work in? I worked with Dick Credo’s lab.

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[Okay.] And he’s a mitochondria persons. And uh, working there, he’s young, very young. And uh, I worked for him, you know, we tried to study the mitochondrial RNA polymerase.

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[Mhm.] So that’s how get into the DNA, you know, through microbiology. Because DNA, and transcription, you need to do the microbiology. So I isolate and identify the mitochondrial enzyme, polymerase, yeah.

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That’s my thesis. Okay. Um, and what was the demographics of the lab? Like, were there a lot of other Taiwanese…? [No, no.] There…

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No, uh, the—mostly I think all of them are American. And uh, I [stammers] I'm wrong—we have one German, one uh…two German. [Okay.] And uh, then we have a few American.

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And uh I’m from Taiwan, and Sophia is from Hong Kong. Okay. Um…so, what prompted your—or what did you do after getting your Ph.D. at UC Davis?

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Well, after Ph.D. I had to do the postdoc [Mhm.] training. Those days, much shorter. So I also took less than two years postdoc in…here, in the MD Anderson, with Dick Credo.

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Dick Credo is famous on uh, identify uh, called PAX6, uh, gene. PAX6 gene is important for eye development, it could determine the eye.

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So I worked there for RNA polymerase, human RNA polymerase, and do the transcription and study and so, so that’s what I do. When I finished postdoc, then, you know, the, my boss, you know, eh, you know, asked me to see—are

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you interesting? Ask—you know, to look for a job. I said sure. He said there’s a one person, Dr. Bert O'Malley, coming down to Houston, in Baylor.

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He’s looking for people, are you interested? I said sure. [laughs] So I met him later, and uh, then Bert—you know, Bert O’Malley, our chairman, right, no, not—chancellor. He called me, talked to

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me, and he say, you know, he’s coming down and he want to interview me. I say fine. So, and then a few weeks later, he called me again, he said, can I come down?

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[unintelligible] to interview me. So I get a job [laughs] as an instructor. I worked there and I was(?) gradually promoted to the professors. Mhm.

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Um, so what was that like, working in a different lab environment? Um, with different people I guess. [Yeah?] How was that like? Well, different people, it’s definitely very inter—college,

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I’m working in my major advi—we have major advisor to the thesis, right, senior thesis. He’s a person, very busy, he left us alone, right. So then

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when I go to graduate school, my boss is the same. He’s not busy, but he leave you alone. He don’t even select topic for you, you select it yourself. And you approach yourself, only your result, you go talk to

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him. Right. And uh, so, that’s—and then the postdoc, my boss is more involved. But it’s the same thing, any project, you go yourself.

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You give it a title, give it a subject area you’re working on, then you work it out yourself. So all these three, you know, professors, teach me how to be independent.

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[Mhm.] You have to be independent to survive. You cannot independent, you cannot survive their conditions. And I think that’s very important. A lot of…you know, P.I., who train people, right,

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do this, do this, every day they follow you. Say do this, you should do this, do that. And those training, I don’t think it’s as good. Because yes, you may be more productive, but you don’t, you don’t train to

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think. Here, you have to go to literature, you have to find literature all alone. You have to know how to approach it to see how people are doing, and you approach it different way, or you have to devise yourself the approach.

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And when you get a result, you have to think about what you need to do next, okay. Your boss don’t tell you. And a different professor will tell you, well, that’s the next thing you need to do, third thing you need to do, and

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things uh, you know. And that’s more training a technician, to me. So we don’t do that. And uh as a faculty now, I train my postdoc the same thing.

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I give them a topic, okay, but I follow them often. But I don’t tell them what to do. When the people come to me, show me the result, and we discuss, you know, the interpretation. We say, well, we have this interpretation correct.

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What else do we need to do? And they have to think about it, okay? So they all do them, they’re all thinking, they approach it, and they’re doing something, you know, I don’t even know, and they show me this data, I say, oh, that’s

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good. You know, and things like that, that’s what we was trained. And that’s good training I think, yeah. And I think that’s training to become very independent, yeah. And so um, when did you start getting into your research on, um, nuclear

00:28:31.230 - 00:28:41.860

receptors? Well, when Bert O'Malley offered me a job. [Mhm.] Okay. He liked me to working on the nuclear receptor subject area.

00:28:43.070 - 00:28:57.070

So I collaborate with him for quite a few years, four or five years, okay. And after that I branch out, I working on my own program. And uh then, collaborate still, continue

00:28:57.100 - 00:29:14.570

collaboration. So I training his postdoc for a few years. Now I don’t train his postdoc anymore, but we still talk a lot. You know, I, in a way I always consultation, you know, I think he need to go into this, I

00:29:14.570 - 00:29:28.090

always suggest him, this program, and things like that. But mainly we’re working our own program. Yeah. And when I collaborate with, Bert O’Malley, we cloned this gene called COUP-TF, okay.

00:29:29.910 - 00:29:39.360

He's not interested. So I say, I would like to work on this. So I work in microbiology first. Then later I start to say, microbiology, always a limit.

00:29:40.420 - 00:29:52.610

You cannot really answer a lot of questions. So I went to see what is the biological functions. So I start to using animals to study, so now I do a lot of animal work on this.

00:29:54.980 - 00:30:13.050

Um, so what were some of the challenges you faced in research? Well, challenges, always, all the time. One, as a researcher, the funding is the most important one. No funding, no research, okay, you constantly have to

00:30:13.050 - 00:30:22.790

get a grant. And the private schools like Baylor, one grant is not enough, you need two grants. Because you have to pay your own salary. So you need at least two grants.

00:30:23.670 - 00:30:36.500

So you’re constantly on that—that’s the pressure. But fortunately, if you have a good research program, you work hard, then I think grant is—sooner or later you’re gonna get it, okay.

00:30:37.100 - 00:30:52.740

You will not doing too poorly, maybe one time, your grant have a period of time, say one year, you don’t have a grant due to—renew didn’t get it, then you try it again, then you will get it soon. Second round you

00:30:52.790 - 00:31:01.670

always get it. If you…good program, okay. So that’s really, you know, and in research you have good time and bad time. Bad time.

00:31:02.460 - 00:31:14.610

You know, some cycle. The government give you money, good money, later they will cut it off, the good money, and that’s always the—for the meantime, if you have a grant, you are considered the lucky one.

00:31:15.920 - 00:31:34.210

Fortunately, I think most, more or less, I always have a grant until, you know, until I don’t want it, you know. I prepare for the time, and so, I not renew grant…my grant should be able to renew, but I’m not renew the grant for two, three years already.

00:31:34.590 - 00:31:49.230

And my grant will be finishing about…oh, one uh, one year and nine months. So that time I’ll be retired completely. So I’m part-time now. You’re part-time.

00:31:49.230 - 00:31:58.550

[Yeah.] So you work less hours? No, not really. [all laugh] The reason I do part-time is uh, part-time is, you know, I want to travel a

00:31:58.550 - 00:32:12.550

little bit, okay. And uh, so, we, this summer we traveled extensively. Some for business, some for pleasures. And not until early

00:32:12.830 - 00:32:27.430

October, you know, stop, stop, stop travel for a while. So we travel, that’s uh, so that’s the reason, you know, I—if I'm in town I was working full-time. But I do take time off, more

00:32:27.490 - 00:32:45.690

time off. Um, are there any like, uh, social challenges or like, um, in interacting with other people, um, [ Well…] from different backgrounds? In our field, you interact with scientists in our field.

00:32:46.230 - 00:33:00.480

That’s not too bad, if you're in the field long enough. But uh, in the beginning I think probably your English and things like that, also your interest, right. Here, you’re talking to people here, a lot of social talking, right, talking sports,

00:33:00.740 - 00:33:08.610

right, politics. I’m not interested in sports. I’m not interested in politics. [laughs] Therefore, for the talks, I cannot get in.

00:33:09.000 - 00:33:19.760

Very difficult for me to get in, right? So that was a challenge for me. But uh, that, I mean, even that’s a challenge, it's not enough for me to get into where I want to.

00:33:20.490 - 00:33:36.430

I don’t want to pay attention to sports, so I…[laughs] My wife loves sports, but I don’t, I don’t. [unintelligible] Yeah, but science is no problem, you know. You go to the meeting, you go to, you know, different, uh,

00:33:37.210 - 00:33:49.550

society meeting, you know, and you meet people, you talk, and things like that, always good. You have, you have to establish the relationship, otherwise when you review grant, review paper,

00:33:50.960 - 00:34:01.090

and things like that, you don’t have advantage. Yeah. Advantage in knowing other people? They know you, so they know you, they know what you do, [Okay.] and they give you

00:34:01.180 - 00:34:15.310

benefit of doubt. [Mhm, okay.] And if they don’t know you, they, they don’t give you benefit of doubt. Um, so I saw that you had um, many graduate students [Yes.] and postdoc students who’ve

00:34:15.410 - 00:34:30.290

gone through your lab. Um, do you value, like, mentoring people, mentoring scientists? Well, you're also proud of your—your trainee doing well. Right, that's—since you're always very

00:34:30.380 - 00:34:41.650

proud, right. And uh, I mentor them, for better or worse, that's what I can do. [all laugh] Now it's they, what they can do. Right.

00:34:42.850 - 00:34:56.420

So I think that mostly they're doing pretty well. [Mhm.] So I'm proud of them, you know. Now I have one graduate s—I have several graduate students in Taiwan, one graduate

00:34:56.420 - 00:35:10.820

student doing very well. And uh, then one in China, you know, Shanghai. And in Shanghai, have this called jieqing you know, it's

00:35:10.930 - 00:35:23.520

different—young investigator, if they are doing very well, they give a title. [Mhm.] And then a second title, third title—he get the third title. He only live here for six, seven years.

00:35:24.930 - 00:35:36.280

And this title is he get grant very easier, so it’s also that the—after this, he have nothing else he can do now. Only thing he can wait is for the academicians.

00:35:37.870 - 00:35:51.700

[Hmm.] And in China, academician is very highly respected. Not so many people, you know. So, so I'm very proud of them, you know very proud of them. Some they still struggle but I think they’re still young,

00:35:51.990 - 00:36:04.130

so take time, but it should be okay. Mhm. What was it called? Academic admission? Academician. [Okay.] Yes, right, I mean the, academician, like be in

00:36:04.470 - 00:36:13.720

uh, National Academy of Science. [Mhm. Oh.] Academician, the member. [Mhm.] And they are well respected. In here, we only one, in our department, Bert O'Malley.

00:36:13.720 - 00:36:28.000

Yeah. So what would you attribute success in research to? Well I think you have to be—well of course, my training, my mentorship—like, people mentor me.

00:36:29.390 - 00:36:42.460

Made me become very independent, thinking for myself, right. So that's I think the best training I ever get, okay. Second thing, you work hard, right. Now you come to think about it, also I have personality

00:36:44.240 - 00:37:01.800

different from other people is, I don't get patience. Don’t get patience, there are good things and bad things. Don't get patience, means you don't, you don't want to do those detail. You get something advance, right, you find something, gradually you do it.

00:37:02.400 - 00:37:11.600

A lot of people will stay on there, keep on doing and doing and doing the detail. And they have patience, they do it. Keeping up with everything. So they

00:37:11.660 - 00:37:27.490

thought that I have to see one area. And science is this, you go up, gradually you're going to come down. And when you stay there like that all the time, you end up you're going to be down. But you have to grab—you have to keep on going.

00:37:29.090 - 00:37:44.680

And uh since I don't have patience, I have no patience in the details. Try to clean up the details. Major point is, something new, I discover or whatever…you know, I will do

00:37:45.090 - 00:38:01.980

quite a lot of things, I mean it would be stupid not to harvest, right? But then I'm not patient to say, doing also minor things, minor paper. So I move on to new area and that's, I think that’s make me

00:38:03.150 - 00:38:18.090

uh, I think another reason I am, in this area, successful, more successful in this area, yeah. So I think these two things really, really help me. Personality and that and work hard for sure.

00:38:18.690 - 00:38:29.840

You know, work hard is, is necessity. You don't work hard, forget it, alright. So these three things, I think that’s make me—I think I consider myself even some success.

00:38:30.760 - 00:38:45.770

Yeah. Okay. Um, and with all the awards and recognition you've received for the research you've done, um how did that make you feel as a person? [laughs] It always good to be

00:38:45.770 - 00:38:57.910

recognized, [Mhm.] right? And uh sometime recognition is this: is a lot of politics, right.

00:38:59.360 - 00:39:15.230

A lot of people help you to get it, the award. Award don't just come to you simply, right. You have to do well, but people have to help you. And politics is very important—that I do not

00:39:15.290 - 00:39:28.170

have, okay. But, I'm satisfied, you know I'm happy with what I do. I mean, award or not. I don't think it's important for me, right?

00:39:29.770 - 00:39:45.660

For example, in Taiwan, give me academician position, uh, title. I didn't ask for it. A friend, you know, know my work and they help me out to do that. I didn't ask for it. All the award is

00:39:45.660 - 00:40:03.830

the same thing—we do not ask for it, alright. But uh they give to us—and that's…to me is even more…you know, satisfied, okay. So, you know, you know, when people recognize you, it’s a, it’s a good

00:40:03.830 - 00:40:17.570

things. But if they don't recognize me, that's fine too, okay. I think the people know me, they know for the, f—for who I am. And uh, I think this award, all those things, only for people that don’t know you,

00:40:18.620 - 00:40:33.060

right. Say “Oh, this guy have this position, this award, he must doing well.” But people know you, this doesn't matter anyway. Yeah. [Okay.] I've actually, my—to my parents, that's for sure, they are

00:40:33.060 - 00:40:51.160

happy with it. [laughs] But to me I don't think there's any differences. Mhm. So, have you seen more um, I guess uh, scientists of Asian descent go into research? ‘Cause uh when you first came to UC Davis, you said there were um, there's only one

00:40:51.230 - 00:41:01.780

other Taiwanese student in your lab, [Yeah.] but you’ve seen a lot more, like, Chinese graduate [Yes.] students? Okay. Um... Yes. I mentor a lot of them.

00:41:02.740 - 00:41:18.860

Because I see this committee and see things like that, so I know a lot of them, yes. Mhm. Okay. Um…and uh, do you collaborate with other scientists from—uh, globally?

00:41:19.550 - 00:41:34.200

Yes, [Okay.] because this er—era of scientific research, you cannot do alone anymore. [ Mhm.] Okay. And uh, thirty, forty years ago, you can do alone.

00:41:35.740 - 00:41:48.760

But not anymore. Okay, you need collaborations. Otherwise, you'll be very slow. So I collaborate with a lot of people. You know, I have collaborated with people in Germany, I collaborate with people in

00:41:48.880 - 00:41:59.640

England. I collaborate people with Japan, Korea, Taiwan, U.S., Canada, and even South America. So, and you know, there's a lot of

00:41:59.640 - 00:42:11.500

collaboration and, you know, you need to do for sure, major collaboration still in United States, [ Mhm.] locally most. And uh, you need their help, they need my help.

00:42:12.700 - 00:42:25.090

And we collaborate with others, and sometimes we even write grant together. Okay. And I think collaboration is important, okay. Collaboration is you give—you take some, you give some, okay.

00:42:25.680 - 00:42:35.550

You can not always take without give. Because nobody gonna collaborate with you, okay. And uh so we, we collaborate, [Okay.] collaborate a lot.

00:42:35.550 - 00:42:47.780

And how do you usually find these collaborators? Do you read their research online? Research, yeah. Okay. Well we usually do the, you know—as scientists you get to be, you know, update to all the journals

00:42:47.830 - 00:42:59.010

right. Journal articles, and things like that. Used to be you look at a book, right, those journal like this, [Mhm.] you know. Or you—now you can read it online. [Mhm.] Yes.

00:42:59.370 - 00:43:09.750

you have to know everyone very well. What they do and things like that. And then when you need something, you search for it. Need something, then you call them up or talk to them, or email them.

00:43:10.370 - 00:43:25.160

Then to say you know, “Let's collaborate, this is very interesting, are you interested in this?” For example, you know, we have— we discover, our gene, it's very important in CDH. CDH is called congenital diaphragmatic hernia.

00:43:26.760 - 00:43:40.990

When we see a phenotype in the mouse, we have no idea what this is, okay. The reasoning is, let’s—what you call it, diaphragm have a hole. [Mhm.] And your liver, GI tract, and

00:43:42.200 - 00:43:57.130

your stomach, protrude into the thoracic chamber. And this is one of the three-thousand newborn boy have this disease. Girls too, more boys than girls.

00:43:57.930 - 00:44:16.330

Newborn, I think how many percent, I cannot remember, have this disease. So usually this baby die early, in early life, because it push in, their lung cannot develop well and you cannot breathe, you have problem.

00:44:17.890 - 00:44:34.260

But now they, they can diagnose earlier. If they do, they find—what they can do is in utero, the surgeon can go in there to, to uh, to push back the, the liver, and the

00:44:34.440 - 00:44:56.140

stomach into the stomach area, right, then sew it off the diaphragm. Baby was born, but lung was—development’s not good. So lung can not develop after birth, okay. So lung is not developed well, then usually

00:44:56.780 - 00:45:12.360

the patient will have some problem, they die in the early age, much later than the—without surgery, but they still die. So we find this animal, we say, “Gee, this is very interesting but what to do?" So we search, we find this

00:45:12.360 - 00:45:25.210

called CDH, then we look for it. Then we see the genetic department somebody work on CDH. Oh no, I'm sorry. They are not working on CDH, but genetic department is working on genetic disease. So I call him

00:45:25.210 - 00:45:36.820

up. I say, "Well let's take a look at this data. You got interesting.” He say, "Yes they are very interesting." [laughs] So that's how we screen patients. So that's how we collaborate.

00:45:42.260 - 00:45:56.190

Mhm. Um, and so you worked with your wife on some research projects? Say what? You work with your wife [Yes.] on research? Okay. So how is that um, like I guess, are there mostly collaboration or like arguments about research?

00:45:58.840 - 00:46:09.630

You ask me is how I survive the marriage? [all laugh] My marriage survive. Yes. Okay. The collaboration, even the argument, yes.

00:46:10.870 - 00:46:28.650

I think we need to—we push this way, she may think differently, right? You argue about it, right? And then you try to convince the other side, right, and she try to convince me. And if we cannot convince each other,

00:46:30.500 - 00:46:41.300

then we say, well, we’ll compromise. Sometimes, I yield, sometimes she yield. Or, postdoc—let the postdoc choose.

00:46:42.190 - 00:46:56.310

Right, let them choose what they want to do. Sometime they ask me to see which direction they want to go. They can go to both directions, but a postdoc, the time is limited, one person.

00:46:57.090 - 00:47:05.900

They cannot go to both. And so they are weighing out which way they want, right? We usually let the postdoc choose.

00:47:06.940 - 00:47:25.190

We tell them, we recommend, we think is advantage, disadvantage. Which part more risky, which part more not risky. Or even this one potentially can be more important. This part potentially you can get data faster.

00:47:26.250 - 00:47:42.480

It's, that’s their choice, so we give them their choice. And uh, when he cannot choose, then we have to tell them, you know, decide, and Sophia and I have to be—compromise, we discuss, most the time we agree.

00:47:42.480 - 00:47:56.900

[Okay.] But once a while, we do not agree, right. And um, yes, we do—because the work, we do fight, right.

00:47:58.550 - 00:48:12.850

[laughs] Husband and wife always fight. So we have family things, household things, always a fight, right. That's—don't expect it's gonna be smooth [laughs] honeymoon rest of your life, there's no way.

00:48:13.550 - 00:48:26.200

But that’s just part of them, you know, we fine, you know, we respect each other. And uh as soon as that, you know, marriage is strong, no

00:48:26.260 - 00:48:45.220

problem. No problem, yeah. Actually at the end I think make our marriage even stronger, hopefully. Yeah, okay. So when did—what year did you marry, um, what year was your marriage?

00:48:45.250 - 00:48:55.560

Oh, '71. '71. You want to test me, right? [all laugh] [Um.] You ask me how many years we marry. [laughs] Um, so what do you hope are the results

00:48:56.010 - 00:49:08.480

of your research? Like, how do you hope it will help people? Yes, I think uh, we are working on gene, play very important role in diseases. Like uh, in prostate

00:49:08.840 - 00:49:26.050

cancers, like in heart failure, like in muscular dystrophy, and Parkinson's. We have so far. This gene probably also important for obesity and uh, you know and uh, osteoporosis and so on.

00:49:28.330 - 00:49:43.870

Reason why this gene is so important, is because this gene—one they control mesenchymal stem cell differentiation. Mesenchymal stem cell differentiation into bone, muscle,

00:49:45.060 - 00:50:01.400

fat, and chondrocytes. COUP-TFII favor fat and chondrocyte at the expense of bone, and uh, muscle. So you—this, this, this gene, right—I mean this cell,

00:50:01.400 - 00:50:15.330

mesenchymal stem cell go in four different route, right. They are balanced. You have too little COUP, then go to fat, become skinny, then have more bone, more muscle, okay. But you get too much COUP,

00:50:16.140 - 00:50:29.260

more fat, less bone, less muscle. So bone, osteoporosis, right? Fat, obesity, right, diabetes, right. And so, so in a way it's, now we have device,

00:50:31.050 - 00:50:49.970

we knock—we, we using knock off this gene. Animal favors high- fat diet, Western diet, okay, they don't become obese. They have more bone, more muscle, that's good things, right. Now, and then they, they have less fat,

00:50:50.750 - 00:51:07.410

they are less—uh they are more insulin-sensitive. And so it, you know, they don't develop diabetes. And uh, we have found this inhibitor in COUP-TFII. And now we try—we find

00:51:08.520 - 00:51:22.020

taking the white-eyed animal, the mouse, feeding them with high-fat diet, and they all become obese. Right? And uh, but— when we treat with this compound, feed them with high-fat diet, they don't become obese.

00:51:23.040 - 00:51:35.150

They are very insulin-sensitive, okay. And therefore, it's very good, right. They have more bone, [inaudible] more bone, and that's, hopefully we can treat diabetes, obesity,

00:51:36.550 - 00:51:54.700

and maybe we can do it on the bone, okay. In the cancers, this gene is very important in uh, development, early stage embryogenesis. But when the embryogenesis finish, young adult could do—it,

00:51:54.790 - 00:52:09.830

it’s become very old, not important, you can knock it out, animal happily, you know, to live. But when the disease come, this gene go, okay. And that's this

00:52:09.860 - 00:52:26.220

gene I'm talking about disease like obesity—no no, I'm sorry, the cancer, prostate cancer, like heart failure, and like uh, Parkinson's, like uh, muscular dystrophy, the gene go up. And we over-express the

00:52:26.250 - 00:52:39.240

gene in animal, right, all these phenotype. So now we do take in this animal with prostate cancer, treat it with this compound, this tumor cannot grow anymore.

00:52:40.420 - 00:52:59.040

Don't grow that well. But control using placebo, the way it grow big tumor, and metastasize into the other organ. So we hopefully—this can be developed into a drug for the treatment of this different disease.

00:53:00.010 - 00:53:11.900

Where this is more applied. But all the—most of my work is basic. Basic is very important right, to be full applied. Without basic, there's no apply.

00:53:13.010 - 00:53:30.460

Application. So I think that’s, we think—we hopefully, we are—we do some good to the scientific communities, through our work here. So how do you balance, um, work and your family time?

00:53:30.920 - 00:53:44.210

[laughs] Okay yes. We work hard, but when I go home, I don't take work home, okay. My wife do, but I don't. [laughs] I usually—she want to talk about science, "No, no science."

00:53:45.840 - 00:54:00.760

Anyway, but we have enough time here to discuss the science here. So I don't like to take, take my business back home. Only very rare occasion I will work at home, you know, you know, but

00:54:00.930 - 00:54:14.370

I usually don't unless sometimes I'm sick, I need to stay home and I work. Otherwise, I don't, yeah, I don't like—because you go home, it will be late already, then the cooking dinner, and you know you don't really have much

00:54:14.820 - 00:54:26.570

time. So I don't want to do, you know, thinking about science anymore. Okay. Um, so how many children do you have? Two. Two? Two yeah. Yeah, they are… yeah much older than you now.

00:54:28.060 - 00:54:41.980

So they have—I have four grandkids already, so they uh, they have two kids. One in uh, the older one is in uh Beth Israel, in Boston you know,

00:54:42.090 - 00:54:56.670

[inaudible] Harvard University he's the assistant professor there. The younger one is in Dallas, Southwestern, also assistant professor there. Yeah. Both of them are M.D./Ph.D.s so they’re doing

00:54:57.180 - 00:55:10.280

research. Oh okay. So did they get into research because of you and your wife? Well I don't really know. Frankly in high—in uh, middle school, they told me they don't want to be a scientist like us.

00:55:11.470 - 00:55:26.900

But uh, in college, they do—called SMART program, working with this professor here called Hugo Bellen. And Hugo Bellen is very good, he really talk to them and teach them.

00:55:27.580 - 00:55:38.010

So my two kids listen to him very much. And also I'm quite sure because we are doing research, they look at our, you know, look, look at us, right.

00:55:38.630 - 00:55:51.620

So all together, maybe that's the reason they go to science, I think. Yeah. But I think Hugo Bellen really—they talk to Hugo Bellen a lot on science, you know. Yeah, so they actually—he's a very good mentor.

00:55:52.570 - 00:56:08.830

Yeah. Um, so what languages do you speak at home? We speak English and uh, and Chinese, Mandarin, [Mandarin Chinese, okay.] yeah. Um, did you want them to grow up speaking Chinese?

00:56:09.910 - 00:56:26.250

Yes, we send them to Chinese school [laughs] but it's not—not very successful, okay. Actually my grandkids could speak better Chinese than my son. But they do, they learn Chinese, you can—last year,

00:56:26.250 - 00:56:39.060

we went to China and my son can’t understand languages, speak, but he can communicate with, you know, the motions and all those things, so it's okay. [Mhm.] It's not good, you can see, you know,

00:56:39.530 - 00:56:51.590

sometimes you listen, you laugh. But uh… [laughs] Um, so what kind of celebrations do you uphold—do you celebrate at home? Say that again? What kind of celebrations?

00:56:52.350 - 00:57:04.530

[Celebrations?] Like New Year's, Chinese New Year? No, not much New Year, mostly Thanksgiving, Christmas. [Mhm.] So that's probably the most we celebrate. [Mhm.] And for sure, birthday.

00:57:04.530 - 00:57:20.560

You know, and uh, anniversary, Father’s Day, Mother's Day. The Chinese New Year, we don't do much celebrations because it's always weekday, you

00:57:20.560 - 00:57:36.460

know, you don't have time. [laughs] Um, so do you have any hobbies or side interests? Uh yeah, hobbies, yes. I like photography, I like painting, I like fishing, I like

00:57:36.460 - 00:57:45.240

travel. [ Traveling.] Travel, yeah. I love 'cause I enjoy scenery. [Mhm.] I'm not interested in the big city, but

00:57:45.570 - 00:58:03.230

I'm interested in scenery. Okay, um, and so what would you consider your greatest accomplishments so far in life? Great accomplishment…[laughs] Well, everybody tell me, and

00:58:04.020 - 00:58:19.160

I agree, I raise two sons, they doing pretty well, in a way, you know, still struggling, junior year as a faculty. But I think, you know, they’re

00:58:19.510 - 00:58:34.860

doing well and that make me proud. So I consider that's probably the most accomplishing. [laughs] Um, so I saw that you travel a lot [Yeah.] for your um, like, giving spee—talks and stuff.

00:58:35.250 - 00:58:49.850

So do you meet other collaborators through these talks? [Yes.] Yes. [Okay.] Well, most collaborators we usually meet [Mhm.] sooner or later to discuss publication, discuss things like that, yes. Yeah. Okay. Um, did you have any questions?

00:58:50.440 - 00:59:08.670

Yeah, where did you go uh, over the summer, traveling? This summer? Yeah. Uh, a lot of business travel and uh personal as well. I went to Spain and Portugal for the high-school

00:59:08.670 - 00:59:23.110

reunion. Then, end of June, went to Taiwan for academician meeting. And also reviewing grant and reviewing institute. Then come back, we went to—oh,

00:59:23.630 - 00:59:42.300

my granddaughter, playing the lacrosse, tear her ACL tendon, right. So surgery, so I go there to help twice, one week each time. So that's what I was doing, then I went to—I'm going

00:59:42.300 - 00:59:55.640

to Iceland for tour. So that's pure vacation. And uh, then come back, I'm going to China for meeting plus, academician(?)

00:59:56.870 - 01:00:12.260

give seminars. Then come back, then I have to go to Boston for college reunion. So that's the reason I'm so busy these few months. [all laugh] Yes. Too much,

01:00:13.360 - 01:00:26.400

so it's spaced out a little bit. Mhm. Um, so with these—at these seminars in China do you um, teach in Mandarin Chinese or English? Well, I'm going to give two

01:00:26.510 - 01:00:40.070

or three cha—three, uh, talks, actually. One is a major one, a meeting. They prefer you to speak Chinese, Mandarin. And that's tough for me so I probably mix English and

01:00:40.330 - 01:00:53.310

Mandarin. [Mhm.] The other one is uh, the, you know, is the Institute of Science, you know. That one I think they speak English.

01:00:54.520 - 01:01:08.260

There—because they do have foreign scientists working there. So they do require people speak English. [Mhm.] So that's no problem, okay. So that's uh, you know—I did

01:01:08.510 - 01:01:21.330

speak Chinese in some other meeting. Like one time they invite me to play the keynote speaker in the Endocrine Society meeting in China. So I speak Chinese.

01:01:21.480 - 01:01:37.550

[Mhm.] So I had to prepare a lot [laughs] to speak Chinese because term—those terms, so I—terms I use English, but still a lot of words I had to relearn [Mhm.] because they are—they are new.

01:01:37.550 - 01:01:54.750

Yeah. Um, and how would you identify yourself like as in um, Chinese, Chinese-American, Taiwanese? I'm a Taiwanese American, [Okay.] yes. Um, and so do you have any more questions?

01:01:55.490 - 01:02:06.520

So what—what do you do when you're at home? I know you said you like photography. Um, [ Yeah.] you don't like politics or sports. [laughs] No, I don't watch—[laughs] my wife watch, sometimes I watch

01:02:07.130 - 01:02:23.560

sports, I do watch a little bit with uh, okay. Especially when the Astros or, you know, the Rockets play. [Mhm.] S—football I'm not, I’m not interested, but uh, the baseball, and the rug—and the

01:02:24.060 - 01:02:36.260

basketball, basketball especially, I’m more interested in. So I do watch some, okay. And at home, weekday, you don't have much time. You go home,

01:02:36.390 - 01:02:50.830

after dinner we, we take a walk. We walk for about thirty, forty minutes, okay. So every evening we do that. So that's probably take up most of the time, then, you—you know that by the time

01:02:50.880 - 01:03:02.260

you eat some food, taking a shower, it's almost time for bed, so I listen to news, right. Weather, the news, and then go

01:03:02.300 - 01:03:16.800

to bed. Weekday, Saturday, we—it's working day for us. We have a meeting in the morning, okay, that's what we do. [laughs] Science.

01:03:18.450 - 01:03:30.290

I don't require all my people to come, but they all come, okay. And this meeting is uh, Bert O'Malley's group meeting and also other people in there. So we come over there, I'm in charge of the meeting.

01:03:31.470 - 01:03:47.230

So we have, you know, you know, one-hour meeting, we have to bring the breakfast, we…and after that we just working for a few hours, and then we leave early, probably in afternoon, mid-afternoon, or the early afternoon.

01:03:49.040 - 01:04:07.530

Sunday, you know, I usually take a long walk, usually go to see my brothers, and things like that. So that’s uh, most of the day, the time I do, yeah. Yep.

01:04:07.530 - 01:04:24.210

The photography, usually when we take a trip or you take special, if you—if you go fishing. Sometime you go fishing or sometime you—you take pictures, you know, yeah. So did your brothers come to Houston because

01:04:24.770 - 01:04:34.310

you were here already? Uh yes, yes. When they immigrate, at the time, I'm here already. [Mhm.] And uh, my older

01:04:34.440 - 01:04:49.180

brother he was in Pennsylvania, and he get an Aramco job. So he work for Aramco for more than—than twenty years, probably. Then he retired, they say, “Where to come?” He say,

01:04:49.260 - 01:05:04.570

“Well, come to Houston, because I have, I have two brothers here, so.” You know, my brother and me here, so he come and he settle down here. Okay. Um, so wait, did any of—of your other siblings work in research?

01:05:04.570 - 01:05:15.500

No. Do research? No, you're the only one. I'm the one working in biology. My older brother is engineer, my younger brother is accountant.

01:05:17.930 - 01:05:38.320

Yeah. So no, no, no, no research. I'm the only one get PhD, so. Um, so what values did you raise your children on? Well I think I raise the values, I didn’t really—you know, I mean,

01:05:39.490 - 01:05:56.400

specifically, but uh, I think set by example, right. Hard working, and um, you know, try to be honest, you know, be honest. Uh, and now they become very liberal, too.

01:05:56.400 - 01:06:09.080

So it's much more—[laughs] very liberal to me. But anyway, I'm not conservative either, I’m liberal. I consider myself liberal, but uh, they are even more,

01:06:10.310 - 01:06:24.650

I—to me. So I, you know, in a way, I think that hard working, and uh you know, be honest. I think that's the two things I would say I do now that both of them working much harder than me.

01:06:26.020 - 01:06:42.490

They’re working very hard, struggle right, junior faculty struggle to do it. We are at the end of my career so it's okay to relax a little bit more. Okay. Um, did you have any more questions?

01:06:42.960 - 01:06:55.460

Did you say that your children are in the same field? Or what are they teaching? Well it's all biological field. [Mhm.] My older son, he's more in the neuro and obesity.

01:06:57.530 - 01:07:14.640

My younger son is uh, uh—older son, endocrinologist. My younger son is uh, more of a, he's a pedia— pediatric neurology. Specialty is the uh, uh, what you call those,

01:07:16.570 - 01:07:33.690

not Parkinson's, it's uh…autism spectrum disease. [Oh.] So he, he have clinical duties. So he do see patients I think fifteen pe—fifteen percent

01:07:33.690 - 01:07:48.570

of the time. Fifteen percent usually means thirty percent, and physician has a lot of work to do. But uh, then the rest of it he's doing research, you know, autism. Yeah. So I don't—I do neuroscience some, but

01:07:48.780 - 01:08:04.280

uh, it's not my specialty. I do some neuroscience like Parkinson's, you know. Neurodevelopment, I do some neurodevelopment. I understand what they do, you know, but uh, it's not

01:08:05.890 - 01:08:20.380

very—the area I'm not that familiar with. Yeah. So did they ever ask you questions like consult with you or…? Seldom. Seldom.

01:08:20.380 - 01:08:36.240

They talk to my wife. [Oh.] [all laugh] My wife like to talk science with them. [laughs] [ Oh okay.] I won't. I talk to them about my grandkids. Okay. Um, so we don't want to take too much of your

01:08:36.360 - 01:08:48.250

time, [That's okay.] do you have any more, anything else, any more that you would like to add? Well we almost [laughs] my life story, that’s…no, I don't have really any more added.

01:08:48.680 - 01:08:52.830

Okay. Okay, well thank you so much [No problem, no problem.] for allowing us [ Thank you.] to interview you.