00:00:05.150 - 00:00:14.190

Yeah. Okay. Today is August 11. My name is Chelsea Li, and I'm here with Miss Millie Chan. And we will be conducting a full-length interview.

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So thank you so much for being here today. And let's get started. So the first couple of questions will be about your early life.

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Where and when were you born? I was born in San Antonio, Texas. March the 11th 1933. It was a long time ago.

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How would you describe the household and neighborhood you grew up in? Well, actually, my parents were business people. And they own grocery stores, and restaurants. And when I was little, it was mostly grocery stores, which was

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within walking distance from the house, and we lived on a street that was not paved, so it was kind of a dirt street. And many of my father's relatives from China came to work in the various businesses.

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So there were a lot of young adults around, many, well, I would say, four or five men, young men, and then my mother was the eldest of 10 children.

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Actually, we've discovered it was more than that. But her sisters, she had many sisters, they came to work in the in the businesses as well. So there were a lot

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of young adults around both male and female. And then, during the Second World War, many of the Chinese pilots came to train in San Antonio, because the weather there is perfect for

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flying. So there were a lot of young military men around. So that was my early childhood. Then, when I was a young teenager, I was the middle of

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three girls: I had an older sister who was named Bobby— Barbara. And she was about maybe two years and three months older than myself.

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And then I had a younger sister, Priscilla, who was five years younger than I was. And when we were young teenagers, we moved to a very large stone house on Mulberry Avenue in a very nice part of San

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Antonio. And we lived there until I married Lo-Yi. And my mother actually lived there until she died. And then my sister lived there until she died

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recently, about two years ago. This house was very close to Trinity University. So, I think my sister went to Trinity. I started to go to Trinity as well.

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But then I ended up at Our Lady of the Lake and I studied music because I started the violin at age five. And so, I was playing the violin, and I played it in college as well.

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So I studied music education is what I studied. Yeah. So you mentioned that your parents ran a grocery store when you were younger. And a Chinese restaurant as well, did you have to help out?

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And, in either of these businesses, and how did this experience shape your childhood? Okay. It did, we did have to help out. Not a lot. But on occasion, we would have to be cashiers.

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Well, first of all, I love to watch people doing things. Ordinary things. So I was watching the butchers carve, you know, carcasses and meat and steaks and different cuts that were going

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to be sold. I was very interested in the technique in how they cut up the meat, and I learned to do that.

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And that helped me later on in my life when I taught cooking. Then my brother was born, who's 13 years younger than I am. And after having three daughters, of

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course an Asian family, to have a son was really a big event. So my father opened a very large Chinese restaurant in San Antonio called Tai Shan. And it became very popular

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and was well-known. None of us really worked in the restaurant. My mother ran it. My father also was involved.

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And this restaurant was recently sold to a community organization— I don't remember what it was called.

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But this organization held a large annual celebration of San Antonio. And it held a large parade with lots of floats, and people would be all dressed up, etc.

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The annual event was written up recently—I think I sent it to you — by some historians in San Antonio. My parents were very well-known, particularly my mother who was very outgoing.

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She was born in Arizona, nine years before it became a state. And she was the first of, as I said, 10 children. We now have a cousin who is a

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genealogist and we found out that my grandparents had many more children than that, like 14 and 15, I can't believe. But they immigrated to Arizona, in the late 1800s and,

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and lived there. And I— when we were young, we would travel by car to Arizona, from San Antonio, which took several days in those days. So that, and that was

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sort of our early life. There were lots of adults around. There were young men around who were very important in my life

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because they came from the village and would cook Chinese meals every evening. And because everybody worked late, they all came to dinner at our house. And so there were 15, 20 people at dinner every night. And I watched the young men

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cook. And of course, that interested me. Our early life, my sisters and I were taken care of by a Mexican nursemaid who didn't like to cook. So this was an opportunity to learn to cook and–

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and just, you know, be in the kitchen and watch what was going on. So, what was it like being– growing up as an Asian American in San Antonio? Were there other Chinese families around during that time?

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Yes, there were. As a matter of fact, San Antonio had a rather large Chinese population there. And so, you know, as a young person, we went to high school, there were young Chinese in the high

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school and, you know, early on we would date and so forth. And now, my mother was very outgoing, she was very well-known. We did

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not feel discriminated against, because she was so accepted– our parents were so accepted in the community. My father was a Rotarian. My mother was a Rotarianne, which is the women's part of that

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organization. And, you know, we belong to church and many other organizations. So they were well-known in the community. And I think that really made a big impression

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as far as, you know, being Chinese was not looked upon as anything negative in any case. In fact, this is a one very interesting incident:

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during the 1940s, I think it was, the supermarket chain wanted to pass a bill in the state legislature to forbid foreigners to own

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property. And my mother went to testify at the state legislature. And she testified in such a way that she was written up in the

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newspaper. In fact, I have her, her whole incident was written up, because it was so noteworthy.

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The news article discribed what she wore as well as what she said. And because she was so adamant, and everybody looked up to her. As a result, the bill was not passed.

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And they credited her with having been the person to, to actually negate that bill. So that's very important I think, espeically during the early days in San Antonio particularly

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for the Asians. Well there was a large Asian community, and as a young kid growing up, we had a lot of Asian friends, Chinese friends, and so on. In fact, I

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married at the age of 18 to a Chinese fighter pilot of the Second World War, he was a lot older than me. And three months after we were married, he re-enlisted, and was sent to fly in Korea.

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And he flew into a mountain and was killed. I was told later by a fellow pilot that the Chinese Communists misdirected him into the mountain. Because I hadn't finished college I decided to go back to finish

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college. And that was before I met my present husband, Lo-Yi. We met when we both were in our early 20s.

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He was studying architecture at Harvard. And because of a sad love affair in which the woman that he was interested in

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told him she was going to marry someone else. Because of this he decided to join the army. And of course, he was sent to San Antonio, a big army base for the Air Force and

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Army, etc. So the first thing he did was to apply for a transfer. He didn't want to stay in Texas. Then my future brother-in-law, Bill, who was also Chinese

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and from Hong Kong, was also an architect, brought Lo-Yi to our restaurant and my mother of course, invited them to Thanksgiving dinner. So that's how we met. Lo-Yi and I fell

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in love and were engaged before Lo-Yi left for Europe. He wanted to go to Europe. So he was in Germany for

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about a year. And then when he came back, we got married, and we moved up to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he finished his schooling.

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And that's where I was working for the Harvard Press, he was going to school. And then we had our first child, Chris, in 1957. Uh no, we were married in

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'57. I had Chris in '58. Oh, I was. Yeah, I was just gonna ask. So back to— so I realized that the San Antonio Chinese community

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has some very well-known grocers, there was someone named Rose Wu. That's my mother. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, yeah.

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And there's other grocers such as Jane Gee. And do you know if these families— Oh yeah, they were friends, we were all friendly because, you know, there was a small, wasn't that small

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but– but of course we were Chinese, we all knew each other, and we all had events together and knew each other socially, so it's a close community really. Yeah. Jane Gee became my brother’s mother-in-law when he married

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Jane’s daughter Linda. You also mentioned earlier that you attended Our Lady of the Lake College for music education. What made you choose this major?

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Well, as I said, I started the violin at age five. So I played the violin through college. And I had got into Trinity at one point, but then decided, I don't know why, but I decided to

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transfer to our Lady of the Lake. And that's where I finished my education. I think, because, frankly, although I started violin and music very early,

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I didn't think I had really great potential. My ear wasn't that fine. But I love the violin. And music is one of the

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things that I enjoy most now. Actually, my husband and I are very avid goers to the Chamber Music Society and so forth here in New York City.

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When you said you were going to major in music education, did your parents have any opinions on this decision? Or any thoughts? Actually, no, they were very liberal.

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They, I mean, my– my mother actually found a music teacher for us. And that's how I started at the age of five with the violin. She wasn't a great teacher, she didn't really give me a

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good background in technique and so forth. So I felt that I lacked that, continuing on, and I played, you know, the violin in college and did recitals and so forth.

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But I didn't ever, wasn't really my— I loved it, but not to the extent that I thought I could do it professionally. Let me put it that way. Yeah.

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I was actually much more interested in being a mother. So that was a great motivation for me when I married and had three children. So you married your husband in

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1957. And you mentioned that you– you guys met through, I think it was your brother-in -law who brought him over? Well, it was my future brother-in-law.

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Future brother-in-law. Yeah he married my younger sister, Priscilla, and after they married, they went to live in Hong Kong. I see. I'm so sorry. And so— I'm

00:18:21.710 - 00:18:34.890

sorry about that. So what was your dating experience, like if you had one? Oh, we dated very early in Texas. First of all, everybody learned to drive, everybody had their own car.

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So dating was an easy thing. And frankly, I had a lot of different boyfriends at that time because, you know, everybody was interested in going out and being together, we had

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things like bowling clubs, in which people would get together. And I did that, when I was younger. I was more sociable than my sister, actually, my older sister. And my younger sister was so much younger, we didn't

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really intersect that much socially. So that's– that's what it was like. It was– it was a very close community. It was a lot of fun. I remember talking to my friends for

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hours on the phone, you know, in those days, we didn't have iPhones. But we did have a telephone so we talked for a long time. And there was always a lot of gossip. And so, the things we talked about.

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So it was fun. Yeah. So when did you decide on marriage? And how did you know it was the right decision for you at the time? Oh, that's a very interesting thing.

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Lo-Yi’s type was not someone I was familar with— because I had gone out with so many boys and men when I was younger, and they were all from Texas, Lo-Yi was very different. He came from a very academic family: his father was a

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professor at Dartmouth College, for instance. And he went to Dartmouth and then graduated from there and went on to graduate school at Harvard. And, so he was very

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different, but I just knew he was really a good person. And I also knew he was a really intelligent person. Whereas my earlier experience with dating and all that

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was all fun, you know? So I thought, well, you know, I'm 24 now. And also, I've had this other experience, I really better settle down and do something really worthwhile.

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So I, you know— plus the fact that we did fall in love, so there was that. And at that time, he would– he was always interested in music as well.

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And since I was at the Our Lady of the Lake, we had a concert at the local Symphony Hall, which was singing the Beethoven Ninth.

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And I was in the women's chorus. And he was in the male chorus. So we had, you know, some real deep interest, similar deep

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interest. I'd never been east before that. So during that period, I came to Cambridge. And I just looked at everything, and I thought, you know, everything looks so old.

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The buildings, everything looks so old there. It was quite an experience. In any case, we really had a good time. We liked it. We met other couples that were also married

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during graduate school. And I guess the major thing that happened was he got this traveling fellowship and we had this seven-month-old, I don't think many people would have traveled around the world

00:22:35.750 - 00:22:46.710

with a seven-month-old. But my mother, who was very optimistic, outgoing, said, “Oh, you can do it. No problem.” Then, of course, what did I know?

00:22:48.550 - 00:23:07.750

So we took this kid around the world and we started out in Hong Kong, Japan, India, the Middle East, in Europe. It was a really wonderful experience. In fact, we have a picture of Chris, our

00:23:07.750 - 00:23:24.970

oldest one, standing— I don't know if you've ever heard of the artist Gaudí, the Spanish artist Gaudí, and we were in Barcelona. And he was very well-known. And he– he did a whole ceramic bench

00:23:25.100 - 00:23:39.330

in this garden. And so, Chris is standing there, not even a year old, and his picture's there. And not too long ago, he went back and got another picture. And now he's 60 years old.

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So it's kind of fun to relive some of these things. Yeah. So you moved to Cambridge to work for the Harvard Press. What did this job entail?

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And– and what ended up leading you to this job with the Harvard Press? Especially since you majored in music education. That, did, I— nothing.

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Nothing. I mean, I just worked as a secretary, nothing major in any way. And I made friends there, which was fun.

00:24:16.200 - 00:24:29.040

And then once I had Chris, of course, I had to stop working. So that was that. I didn't work there I don't think, maybe even a year. Not even. Around there, yeah.

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And then we, as I said, we– we had a little money. So we decided with his traveling fellowship and with the little money we had we were able to go around the world. Yeah.

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And that I think, also was a major impetus in our life. We traveled, we saw different people, different countries and it

00:24:58.840 - 00:25:12.950

opened our knowledge of the world. Yeah, so what were— you mentioned a couple, but what were all the places that you visited on this fellowship? And what did you all see?

00:25:13.400 - 00:25:33.960

Any highlights? Well, India was really the most sobering incident for me, in the sense that the people there were so poor. And they were, you know, you would see— I walked into the bathroom in a—

00:25:35.200 - 00:25:50.510

it was a public bathroom. And there would be people lying on the floor with shrouds over their heads; they had no place else to sleep. And that was, you know, very distressing

00:25:51.480 - 00:26:05.200

for me to see that. And then, Lo-Yi wanted to see all these buildings. So we hired a car and traveled to different sites that were architecturally

00:26:05.200 - 00:26:19.880

interesting. And, so, a lot of young children would come up to the car and look in the window at us. And I should also go back.

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When we first started to travel the world, we spent three months in Japan. And I had a young Japanese woman help me with Chris, and I could go

00:26:34.670 - 00:26:47.520

shopping and cook. We lived in a Japanese tea pavilion house, which is, you know, the Shoji sliding door, and

00:26:47.520 - 00:27:04.170

you opened up and you looked out, and the garden was beautiful. And there would be several gardeners out there trimming the trees, it all looks so natural but it was all taken care of. You know. And– and then friends would

00:27:04.170 - 00:27:27.040

come over. We took baths in this huge wooden ofuro tub, and had a sort of an open fire to cook on. And this young woman who helped me take care of Chris was very

00:27:28.540 - 00:27:39.980

progressive in her ideas. She thought that everything Japanese was futile, although she was herself Japanese. But she was a young Japanese so she had a lot of

00:27:40.020 - 00:27:56.270

complaints. But we had a good time, we were very interested and made some very good Japanese friends. We also went and visited Burma. Our friends, actually a classmate of Lo-Yi who

00:27:57.230 - 00:28:13.750

had got a Fulbright to Burma, and they were living in a Burmese-style house, which is a square donut with the garden in the center. And you could just

00:28:13.830 - 00:28:30.710

open up the side of the house and be on the outside. And if you– we slept on the floor deck of this square house, and you looked up in the morning, and you could see the sky. And that— but we still are friends today.

00:28:30.740 - 00:28:44.500

They're living in South Carolina right now. So we still talk to them. Yeah. Oh, and I remember, in Japan, our friends were so generous.

00:28:44.800 - 00:29:01.430

They gave me some jewelry. And while I was in Burma, because our friends had been so kind to us, I gave her some of my jewelry. And when you enter a country like Burma, they have a lot of

00:29:02.130 - 00:29:11.250

precious and semi-precious stones. So you have to write down everything that you're bringing into the country. When I was leaving the country, I was missing a few things.

00:29:11.250 - 00:29:25.750

So the customs officer gave me a Dickens because he said I didn't have everything. I wasn't leaving with everything that I came with. So that was an interesting experience.

00:29:29.530 - 00:29:43.860

Yeah, Spain, also went to Venice. Venice was wonderful, but Venice in the winter— don't go in the winter. It was freezing cold. And you walk through these little streets and the wind would be blowing, it was just,

00:29:44.730 - 00:29:59.070

you know, it's really something, but. And then, I guess, we ended up in Europe, in...

00:30:03.720 - 00:30:15.590

We didn't spend a long time in England, as I remember. So we were anxious to get back. We'd been gone for seven months with this baby and we

00:30:15.660 - 00:30:32.960

were tired. As you can imagine. What was your journey like with a child traveling with you everywhere? It was, well, it wasn't easy because there weren't any Pampers in those days.

00:30:33.910 - 00:30:45.580

So I had to do his diapers wherever I was. And we had to be sure that he had good food and we ate a lot of bananas. And fortunately, we had

00:30:45.580 - 00:31:02.130

powdered milk from Hong Kong. And we were able to boil water to make the milk, eat bananas, something you could peel that you knew were safe. Yeah, you know, so you learn how to survive in those conditions.

00:31:03.980 - 00:31:22.660

Be very careful with him, especially with the baby, because you don't want him to get sick. Actually, he did get sick, finally he got a cold in– in Spain, and the doctor came to the

00:31:25.240 - 00:31:40.550

hotel and chastised me because he was sick. Anyway, he survived. He's now 60. About to be 63 years old.

00:31:40.550 - 00:31:56.060

So you ended up moving and settling in New York City. What made you end up choosing this city? Okay. We didn't really want to live in New York.

00:31:57.360 - 00:32:11.980

But in those days, it was the early '60s, and there was kind of a depression. So Lo-Yi tried to find a job. And his family friend I. M. Pei hired him.

00:32:13.330 - 00:32:29.980

So that's how we ended up here. And when we first moved to New York, we lived in Brooklyn Heights where our second child was born. And we

00:32:31.900 - 00:32:44.200

were– we lived there for a while. Lo-Yi did work. He, at that time, was working very hard because I. M. Pei's business was flourishing.

00:32:44.900 - 00:33:02.110

And so he would often work, you know, way into the night. So pretty much, but we made close friends that we still have in Brooklyn Heights. And we lived in a brownstone, one floor of a

00:33:02.110 - 00:33:16.700

brownstone. And then a friend of ours found us this apartment up where we are still living in New York, on what we consider the Upper West Side. We're at 99th on Riverside.

00:33:17.980 - 00:33:34.350

And it's a very large apartment with three– one, two, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a maid's room, kitchen, and living room. So we stayed here because we

00:33:34.350 - 00:33:51.850

were in something called rent control, which meant you paid very low rent. And we've been here for over almost 60 years now. And we've watched this whole area change.

00:33:51.850 - 00:34:03.680

When we first moved here, it was full of drug addicts and alcoholics on the street. But we survived those times. And now it's pretty much gentrified.

00:34:06.480 - 00:34:19.370

What was your experience like in raising three children and everything? Yeah. It was wonderful actually. We were very lucky.

00:34:20.330 - 00:34:40.030

We had a friend who was in the administration of a private school, Fieldston Ethical Culture, run by the ethical culture organization.

00:34:43.840 - 00:34:59.520

So they had, our children went to elementary school there. We were able to keep our children in the Ethical Culture

00:35:00.010 - 00:35:15.240

Schools all the way through high school. They all went to Dartmouth after that. And raising children in New York was pretty challenging because, as you can imagine, they

00:35:15.240 - 00:35:31.740

had to go by bus or subway. We didn't– we had a car, but it wasn’t something you did. In other places, you know, you drive to school or whatever, but not in this city. And they got a very

00:35:31.740 - 00:35:48.570

good education in the lower school. Actually, I was dyslexic, which also made school hard for me. And our second son, Leighton, who's a doctor and heads the

00:35:48.870 - 00:36:05.940

rehab clinic at NIH, was also very dyslexic. But because they knew what dyslexia was, and they were able to help him, you know, he learned how to manage it.

00:36:07.300 - 00:36:21.110

So, I mean, you know, he went through, obviously, very stringent education, so he made it through. And our daughter, also,

00:36:23.410 - 00:36:38.040

she's– she was five years younger, she's just now turned 55. And unfortunately, she has a hereditary eye problem.

00:36:38.640 - 00:36:56.770

My husband, Lo-Yi's mother, had become blind and deaf by the age of 60. And although my daughter is working in finance, she also is losing her eyesight.

00:36:57.330 - 00:37:12.960

So she's becoming a critical problem for her now. She has to make decisions on what to do. But they're all great kids. We just had a big family gathering at Lake Champlain where

00:37:12.960 - 00:37:32.200

our daughter-in-law, Leighton’s wife's family has had the property there for many, many years, generations as a matter of fact. So that was wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was great to

00:37:32.200 - 00:37:52.070

be able to bring up children in the city, 'cause there's so many advantages: museums, education, you know, etc. Whereas growing up in some other area where you lack this broad spectrum of things you can do and learn is

00:37:54.070 - 00:38:07.240

quite different. So my next series of questions are about Chinese cooking. So you enrolled in the China Institute to learn about Chinese cooking, and—

00:38:07.940 - 00:38:28.590

Oh, yes, yes. I had always cooked a lot. And that's what, you know, was good about having children and being able to be home and cook for them, etc. So, Leighton, our second child, said to

00:38:28.620 - 00:38:40.930

me one day— and he was only about nine or 10— and he said, "Mom, what are you going to do when we're all gone?" I mean, I, this– this kid has always thought outside of the box, so to speak.

00:38:42.270 - 00:38:58.850

And I thought, well, you know I really like to cook. And so maybe I'll go to the China Institute and enroll. So that's where I met Florence Lin, who became a very dear friend. And we collaborated and worked together for

00:38:58.850 - 00:39:15.620

many years. And she died a few years ago. But she was like a mother to me. And so she brought me into China Institute, and I became president of the Women's Association

00:39:16.500 - 00:39:27.290

there, and that's how I got on the board. And then once on the board. I stayed on the board and, and until I left,

00:39:27.530 - 00:39:48.130

which was a few, you know, quite a few years ago. But that was a wonderful experience because, I think I mentioned that during my time of cooking, teaching cooking, the children's high school,

00:39:48.580 - 00:40:00.690

Fieldston, at the time asked me to donate a class, which I did. And the person who bought the class was kosher. And I knew nothing about Kosher.

00:40:00.690 - 00:40:12.690

I had heard of kosher, but I didn't know what it meant. And so this person was very interested in Chinese food. The person who bought it really wanted to learn Chinese cooking. And she said, "Oh, I'll tell you about the dietary

00:40:12.740 - 00:40:30.990

laws." So that's how I learned about that, and was able to transfer that to teaching through 92nd Street Y, which is a Jewish organization and I taught at a synagogue.

00:40:30.990 - 00:40:50.910

It was quite an experience— Eventually I decided to give up kosher teaching, because the young people became so orthodox that they wouldn't eat with their parents.

00:40:52.980 - 00:41:07.850

In other words, they had to separate the meals. Also it became so difficult, because they were so closed to new ideas, to teach them was very difficult.

00:41:07.850 - 00:41:20.610

I decided I didn't want to do it. And so that sort of ended my teaching career. And— oh, meanwhile, I did write this cookbook, which also was good for me to have done, about kosher

00:41:20.610 - 00:41:33.930

Chinese because I think I'm the only Chinese person who has ever written about kosher cooking. And so that's kind of interesting.

00:41:33.930 - 00:41:51.960

But then I became involved in something called the New York Women's Foundation, which is quite well-known. And I think, New York Women's Foundation is one of the most successful fundraising

00:41:53.930 - 00:42:10.930

women's organizations in the country. And at that time, it was just starting, it was in the '90s. Then, the NY Women's Foundation really raises money to help

00:42:11.330 - 00:42:26.170

women-led organizations for women. And as I said, I think they're one of the more successful New York women's organizations in the country, I think there are a number of them.

00:42:26.220 - 00:42:43.490

But they hold an annual breakfast, which thousands of people attend. And they raise millions of dollars. And during the early period, I became very involved, and was the chair of the board for a while.

00:42:44.190 - 00:42:59.530

And, because at that time, it wasn't so large or so well-organized. Anyway, That's– that's sort of my life. And now I've just been, now that I'm in my '80s,

00:43:00.360 - 00:43:17.300

close to 90, I've started taking it easy. Just enjoying this jig and traveling. Not so much during pandemic though. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:17.340 - 00:43:33.460

Were there any, like favorite recipes that you— You're good. Were there any favorite recipes that you've had, and that you really enjoyed making? I guess the soy sauce chicken recipe is my favorite one. And I will send– send it to you.

00:43:33.980 - 00:43:43.070

I should also send you a book. Because I have some extra ones. I just haven't gotten around to it. But I will do that.

00:43:43.130 - 00:44:00.490

The soy sauce recipe is easy and it really is delicious. That's one that if you have the right ingredients anybody can do. It doesn't require a lot of preparation like cutting it up and so forth.

00:44:01.700 - 00:44:16.950

Except after it's cooked, you should cut it up. But it's in my– it's actually in my cookbook. I'm pretty sure. And I can, you know, stir fry.

00:44:18.610 - 00:44:34.960

I have taken to stir frying kale with red onion, which is pretty good. Little soy sauce, a little salt and pepper. Yeah. So maybe I can write

00:44:34.960 - 00:44:52.670

those up and send them to you. Do you have— I guess you gave me an address? Yeah, I can send you more information after the interview. I can't hear you. I can forward you more information after the interview.

00:44:52.670 - 00:45:07.930

Okay. That would be good. Yes. So you– you also mentioned Florence Lin. Do you, what– what did you learn as her assistant or through her mentorship? I learned how to teach.

00:45:08.930 - 00:45:28.170

She didn't speak English perfectly by any means. But she always got her idea across. And she was very outgoing, a little bit like my mother in the sense that people just gravitated towards her.

00:45:29.050 - 00:45:52.540

You know. She could— I have all her cookbooks. She's written many. She's written a one dish cookbook, she wrote a complete book of noodles and dumplings,

00:45:53.480 - 00:46:10.520

and breads. I'm just looking up on my shelf all the cookbooks that she's written. And one of the things that I learned from her is how

00:46:11.460 - 00:46:33.690

careful she is in method of teaching. And she makes sure you understand what she's trying to portray you know. I got a vegetarian cookbook from her. Then, of course,

00:46:33.690 - 00:46:46.470

her regional cookbook is, I think, you can't even get it today on Amazon. It's probably like $80 a copy. It's that well-known and that well-revered.

00:46:47.430 - 00:47:08.020

She also did things for “The Cooking of China” for Time Magazine, and New York. She was just

00:47:10.410 - 00:47:30.840

very outgoing. The third daughter is her biography of and— I don't know if you're interested in having that in the...

00:47:31.770 - 00:47:43.150

What, I'm sorry? We'd be happy to have that in the archive as well. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:47:46.390 - 00:48:01.540

Yeah, because I think as a Chinese person, she was very well-known. Grace Chu is well-known, but not— and Grace would tell you— she taught Chinese cooking, too, but she's not a good cook.

00:48:04.430 - 00:48:17.780

She said– she said that herself. So interesting. You also mentioned that you taught cooking as well. What was that experience like?

00:48:19.350 - 00:48:35.830

Well, it was a very broadening experience. Because you met all different kinds of people. And also, especially teaching kosher, because people who are kosher

00:48:36.690 - 00:48:54.410

are very, how shall I say, are very careful. They stick to their rules. And so everybody has an opinion. There were lots of arguments during these classes about what was

00:48:54.410 - 00:49:08.570

the best way to de-feather a duck. Kind of interesting. How do you remove pin feathers? There were certain rules:

00:49:08.650 - 00:49:24.230

for instance, normally you dunk a fowl in boiling water and then de-feather it; you're not allowed to do that in kosher. So, you know, so the de-feathering is a lot more laborious.

00:49:27.110 - 00:49:41.260

Yup. And people, I think because when you're cooking, people are so relaxed. They open up and they tell you things that they don't

00:49:41.260 - 00:49:52.580

ordinarily talk about, especially when it has to do with their religion or whatever. You know, that's what I found. So it was a very broadening experience.

00:49:52.920 - 00:50:13.840

Yeah, yeah, it was fun. Yeah. So then what motivated you to also then publish your own cookbook? Oh, well, because, as I gave this class, and this woman told me she would teach me about Chinese

00:50:13.840 - 00:50:27.840

cooking. Actually, it was Florence who said, "Millie, you got to do this." Because I'm very shy. Actually, I'm quite shy. And I don't feel, you know, like I can be an authority on

00:50:27.840 - 00:50:40.570

anything. And she, she just was at me and at me, she said, "You have to do it, you have to do it." So I finally did. And she– she was very sweet about it. You know, she just,

00:50:41.500 - 00:50:55.110

she really goaded me into it, so to speak. Yeah. So it was Florence, my mentor. Wonderful woman. I really miss her. Yeah.

00:50:58.870 - 00:51:13.470

You also mentioned that you were the president of the New York Women's Foundation from 1997 to 1999. Can you tell me more about how you came into this position and what you liked about it?

00:51:14.270 - 00:51:29.070

Okay. What was interesting was that I was in a cab with my friend, Polly Guth. And their family owned the

00:51:29.070 - 00:51:45.950

Corning glassware. So she had seen– she had been involved with the Women's Foundation for a while. And because I worked with her husband at China Institute, he was also on the board of

00:51:45.950 - 00:52:00.990

China Institute. So we were kind of close. She said, "Millie, you, you should join the New York Women's Foundation." And I said, "Oh, I don't know if I want to do that." I was not, you know, I didn't promote myself in any way like that.

00:52:02.030 - 00:52:12.240

And so finally, I said, "Okay, well, I'll join." And what I did was, I joined to promote the album. They did an annual album.

00:52:12.890 - 00:52:28.760

So I joined that small group. And I became very friendly and good friends with the people that were working on that. And that led me into— in those days, there was not a lot of staff, at the– at the Foundation.

00:52:29.300 - 00:52:45.160

So you were very, you know, close to the executive director. And the executive director said to me, "Millie, you should be president of the board." And, you know, it wasn't something that I

00:52:46.260 - 00:52:56.100

went out to try to do. Somebody got me into it. And so therefore, I did it. And that was pretty much my whole life.

00:52:56.290 - 00:53:10.740

I mean, I didn't seek to do it, I wasn't ambitious, so to speak, to do this or do that. But when– when the– the opportunity presented itself, I-I stepped into

00:53:10.770 - 00:53:28.390

it. I mean, you know, so that was very interesting for me and I liked it because at that time, we would travel by subway or whatever, to go to these different women's organizations

00:53:28.390 - 00:53:42.660

through the boroughs, as well as Manhattan. So you had to go way out. And you learned what other women were doing in their communities. So that— and–

00:53:42.770 - 00:53:56.950

and also, I was learning more about the Asian community in New York City because of it. So that's what my experience was. And– and I did that for a long time.

00:53:57.580 - 00:54:12.800

And, you know, after a while, other people took over as well. So, you know, you– you go, you do what you can when you can do it, and then you ease out because of other

00:54:12.830 - 00:54:26.750

people coming in who have actually yeah, good and have more energy, etc. I don't know if that explains it. That was perfect. Um, yeah.

00:54:26.840 - 00:54:44.940

So in New York, during COVID and amidst the escalated anti-Asian environment, have you– do you know of anyone who's been targeted or yourself or anything like that? Okay. I don't know anybody personally.

00:54:46.010 - 00:54:59.040

But I have a hair cutter who's Japanese, and she comes to my house, she's young, she's about maybe 15, 20 years younger than I am. And she is frightened. She won't— and I

00:54:59.040 - 00:55:19.130

don't take the subway anymore, Chelsea, I, because most of the incidents happen in public transportation, I think, or when you're out on the street in the middle of the city. So she bought herself

00:55:20.500 - 00:55:32.170

a motorbike. And she travels around that way. So that, she— nothing has actually happened to her, but I think she's felt, you know, kind of

00:55:32.170 - 00:55:50.010

uncomfortable at different times. And we're living on the Upper West Side, so very close to Columbia University. And it's a very, sort of older people, moderate income.

00:55:50.530 - 00:56:09.240

So they're, I think it's a very safe area, compared to a lot of different places in the city. So I don't have any problem walking around. I see. So going back to your children, you mentioned

00:56:09.880 - 00:56:22.260

that your eldest child, Chris, is an architect. Leighton is a doctor, and Leicia is the head of operations at a family investment management firm. So they all

00:56:22.260 - 00:56:37.190

came out to be pretty successful. Did– were there any values that you instilled in your children that led to these outcomes? Oh, yeah, I think so. I think so. We just were very good, you know,

00:56:40.550 - 00:56:55.750

loving parents. I remember, Leighton was in something at school. And he was some sort of, I don't

00:56:55.750 - 00:57:08.420

know, on stage or something. And he said, "You know, I don't think I did so well. Mom, I'm really worried." I said, "Leighton, whatever you did, if

00:57:08.420 - 00:57:25.500

you did your best"— I just remember this because I think it really made an impression on him— "whatever you do, you do your best. And we would, we don't, aren't going to be critical of it." That's one thing.

00:57:25.700 - 00:57:41.260

Yeah. And we always praised them. But we also, you know, if they did something wrong, they knew it. And they got chastised for it if

00:57:41.330 - 00:57:59.640

necessary. Our daughter, as I said, has this problem, eye problem. So she's going through a critical period right now of what she should do, because she– her firm has just been sold to a bigger firm, and she doesn't know

00:57:59.640 - 00:58:13.350

whether she wants to or can actually transfer into them. So it's a big decision for her. And she's unmarried, and doesn't want to get married.

00:58:14.990 - 00:58:30.670

No. So. But both our sons have very good relationships. Both are married to Caucasian. The oldest one's married to a young woman he met in

00:58:30.670 - 00:58:46.470

graduate school, who by happenstance was born in San Antonio. Her parents knew my parents, and we didn't know this until after they fell in love. It wasn't like,

00:58:46.470 - 00:59:04.150

you know, it was predestined or anything like that. It was just a happenstance, which is really unusual, I think. And Leighton is married to a physical therapist who he met when he was interning for medicine in

00:59:04.230 - 00:59:13.170

Seattle. And they lived in Seattle for a while. And then he got this job at NIH, and they moved to Bethesda. They've been there ever since.

00:59:14.780 - 00:59:32.960

And we have three adopted granddaughters, all from China. And one biological grandson was missing a chromosome, so he has a

00:59:33.540 - 00:59:44.370

problem. But he's the most lovable, empathetic kid you'll ever want to meet. So we have a very wonderful family.

00:59:44.460 - 01:00:03.760

I'm very, very lucky. And they care about each other and they care about us, you know, so, well you can't ask for more. What would you say are the most important aspects of raising children?

01:00:06.410 - 01:00:24.230

I think being very forthright, very honest, you know, if something is wrong, say so. If they can be praised, praise them. And I think

01:00:24.620 - 01:00:40.080

in general, just accepting them for who they are, you know. I wouldn't– we didn't say you have to go to— in fact Leighton's the first doctor in the whole family. We didn't— they chose what they wanted.

01:00:40.410 - 01:00:56.370

They– they consulted with us. I remember one day after college, he was really in a quandary of what to do. And so he talked about, you know, what should he do, and I.

01:00:57.730 - 01:01:13.520

And then he finally decided on a medicine and we were, nobody in the family was a doctor so you know, couldn't advise him about that.— Chris always wanted to be an architect. And he did a lot of traveling in his early days, he was

01:01:16.290 - 01:01:29.340

going to be a lawyer, and he interned for– for a company, a diamond company. And he thought that was the worst possible, worst

01:01:33.790 - 01:01:49.580

possible thing you could do as a profession, because it was so boring. Anyway, that— and you know, and our daughter has always been good at figures, and she doesn't, she likes to, she doesn't

01:01:49.880 - 01:02:03.110

like to make decisions. And she also doesn't like change. So she find something that's her niche, and she just stays there. And she's, she's wonderful.

01:02:03.110 - 01:02:18.130

She's the best auntie that any niece or nephew could ever want. She doesn't have her own children, but she's, I mean, they all love her. So she's, and she loves them.

01:02:18.860 - 01:02:34.030

And she, I mean, she's got nieces that will call her up. They're, they're in college now. And they call her up. And she spends hours on the phone. I think, you know, it's unusual, I think.

01:02:34.030 - 01:02:46.480

So finally, do you kind of have a vision— I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Oh, do you have a vision of how you want to kind

01:02:47.760 - 01:03:02.360

of live the next couple years now that ? It's on, it's– it's on our minds a lot. And we've looked at retirement homes and we've looked at different places. We're in a very good spot up here.

01:03:03.100 - 01:03:19.890

There are many older people in the Upper West Side of New York. So we've joined something and Lo-Yi is particularly, now that he's retired, particularly interested and active in it. It's

01:03:19.890 - 01:03:35.060

called Bloomingdale Aging in Place. And so he has joined it, he's started a tennis group. He's on their Zoom Tech

01:03:35.060 - 01:03:49.510

Squad, he runs that. I mean, you know, so he, it's really been terrific for him. He's much more active in it than I am. I have a lot of personal friends that I see and keep up with.

01:03:50.460 - 01:04:09.350

I'm not so interested in meeting a lot of different people and doing a lot of different things, although we do that and we're traveling more now, which is, now that COVID is, you know, a little bit easier, but it doesn't

01:04:09.350 - 01:04:28.200

sound like we can do that again so much, so recently we've been traveling a lot. I um, for instance, in the last few months, we've been to

01:04:28.700 - 01:04:46.610

Fire Island to visit friends, and then we went to, we went back to the Berkshires— we had a house during this period which also helped with bringing up the children, I failed to mention that.

01:04:48.980 - 01:05:03.720

Early on when the kids were about, the boys were about seven, eight, we bought a place in the Berkshires, a house that was right across from the Housatonic River.

01:05:04.650 - 01:05:18.410

And like our boys fell in love with fishing because they would go down to the river and see all these fish up and on the river and they very early on would be making their own lures and their own blah, blah, blah.

01:05:19.620 - 01:05:34.920

And so, we had this house for many years, and sold it a year or so ago. But during this period, I would spend the whole summer in the country with them.

01:05:34.920 - 01:05:49.090

That's also helped bring up the children because they learned to play tennis. And they, they had close friends, they weren't necessarily Chinese, but a lot of close friends that we had that they were able to play with.

01:05:51.470 - 01:06:04.730

And so, they got out of the city for the summer, which helped a lot. Because otherwise it would be very confusing. And Lo-Yi

01:06:04.730 - 01:06:22.070

would work during– stay here during the week and then come up for the weekends. For many years we did that. Then we expanded the house. And you know, there were many big parties there, it was

01:06:22.290 - 01:06:33.780

wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have pictures of the house. I don't know if you're interested in stuff like that. Yeah, feel free.

01:06:33.810 - 01:06:50.290

Yeah. Feel free to send them over through email after the interview and we'll put them in the archive. Okay, okay. Yeah. And we just, our oldest son, his wife and one of their daughters, and another of our

01:06:50.290 - 01:07:06.280

granddaughters, they just took pictures of jumping off this cliff into the water. I don't know if you're interested in stuff like that. Yeah anything. Yeah, well, that is all of my

01:07:06.280 - 01:07:24.260

questions. Is there anything that I might have missed? I don't think so. I mean, you know, I can't think of anything else. Well, if there is anything, you can always feel free to

01:07:25.410 - 01:07:36.590

email us, attach anything else and we will put it in. Okay. Are you interested in Florence? Yes. Yes, for sure. Okay, okay.

01:07:36.590 - 01:07:41.550

We can do that. Uh, the other person...