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My name is Norie Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fondren Library Rice University. I am interviewing Mickey White. Today is June 19th 2018. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, Oral History project. Can you tell me about your early life? Uh Well, it uh

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I was an air force brat. OK. My family is from Southeast Texas, the Golden Triangle. And my dad, he entered the uh the Air Force, the Army Air Corps at the time and you know, right with right before the war broke out and stayed mainly in

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Texas and then after the war, uh the family moved around. So I popped out in Detroit, Michigan in 1951. And then we moved to England, uh where most of my earliest memories are, you know, from England, living in a kind of a suburban village called Pinner.

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And I was there for about three years and then we, he was transferred to Texas. So we came back and you know, I got to meet my family in the Golden Triangle and got to know them fairly well and moved to San Angelo for four years.

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And then Okinawa for three years. Uh and then Albuquerque, New Mexico where I graduated from high school in 69 Sandia high school. Um What first drew you to music? Um We had a musical house for one thing but my mom was real, she, she had lines

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on a singing career at one point in time and she was a professional dancer. She did, you know, like these chorus line, you know, high kick chorus line things and toured the Midwest, uh when she was probably 2019 years old. Um and she toured for about

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three or four months. So she kind of had this show biz thing and both my mom and dad really liked being sick and they would perform in, you know, the officers club shows and things like that, you know. So there was music always in the house.

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We had, you know, record players, you know, I had one of those little th you know, where you get those little yellow 70 eights, right? One of those little bitty kitty record players from as early as I could remember. So, um and, you know, we liked

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the musicals and, you know, the, uh things like that, you know, Rogers and Hammerstein was always big. Uh But when the sixties came along, my brother, he was three years older than me. Um He started listening to rock and roll probably in the late fifties, uh

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in San Angelo. Um You'd think it would have been country music but you know, all the kids like rock and roll and he was listening to that. So I started kind of getting into, you know, Elvis and Ricky Nelson and uh Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers

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we really liked and that kind of carried over to Okinawa. And then when the Beatles broke, you know, that was just like a sea change, you know, for, for me musically. And I, by that time I was taking piano lessons, um, and learning, uh, one of

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my piano teachers, uh, we worked through the West side story book, you know, so I was kind of doing that but when the Beatles came in it was just, you know, everything changed. I mean, significantly musically socially, it was a pretty dramatic moment for us. So

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you graduated in from, it was, um, Albuquerque. Yes. And then, um, why did you decide to go to the University of Texas? Well, I didn't really decide my parents decided, um, and my, my dad retired from the Air Force and he wasn't really excited. He was

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a very patriotic guy and he was, did some important stuff and, um, they basically booted him out after 30 years and mom and dad were not really getting along that well and they mainly mom decided that she wanted to move back to the Golden Triangle. So,

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you know, their story was, you know, I was a bit of a train wreck at the time. But, you know, the, their rational, rational rationale was that uh they couldn't afford for me to stay in New Mexico, you know, out of state tuition because they were

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now Texas residents. So my choices were U of H uh Lamar or UT and I chose UT, fortunately I had just enough, you know, all the AC T scores to get in. But uh so I went to uh enrolled in UT in the fall of 1969.

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And by that time I was already, uh, my brother was really into, uh, into the folk singers and I kind of, you know, I did the, you know, rock and roll garage band. I was actually a drummer for a while and, you know, we did Louie

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Louie and Gloria and all those, you know, garage band staples. Um, but the band broke up and I ended up kind of through a set of circumstances with an acoustic guitar and I started kind of strumming these, you know, Beatles songs and everything and, and I

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was pretty adept at it. Right. And I had some musical background. Um, but Bob, my brother really got into the, the folk music thing, a huge Dylan fan, but he turned me on to Donovan and Simon and Garfunkel and Pete Seeger was a, a big influence.

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So by the time I got to Austin, I was already kind of wanting to learn how to finger pick and, um, you know, was doing some, you know, some of the more political songs and things like that when I, when I arrived here and there was

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a very, very active focusing in Austin. It was humming at the time. It was very, very cool and it was centered around the checkered flag which was um on the corner of Guadalupe or La Vaca Lavaca in 15th in Austin. Uh The building is still there.

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It was owned by Rod Kennedy who of course go on to found and do the Curville folk festival. So there were a lot of guys coming through there, you know, a couple of them like from OX, which was uh Steve from Holtz's band with his partner

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Dan mccrimmon had a record out, which is pretty cool, you know, now everybody, you know, burns a CD back then having a vital record out was a big deal. It was like this, you know, double fold out thing and, you know, really well produced and had

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all of Holtz's classics on it and uh some really good stuff by mccrimmon. Uh Mike Murphy at the time was playing at the Checkered Flag. Um There was a, a trio called Three Faces West. 11 of whom one member was Ray Wiley Hubbard. So all that

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kind of stuff that would lead to, you know, kind of the outlaw country folk stuff in the seventies was already pretty much in place at the Checkered Flag. So, you know, I spent less time in class, less time at the fraternity house and more time at

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the checkered flag, you know, as time went on and by, you know, the end of that year, you know, I, I switched into the music school at UT. Um, but, you know, that's, they couldn't teach me how a fingertip. So that was pretty short life. So

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by the about I remember actually the, the date that I decided I was gonna go back to Albuquerque, right? So, um why I would choose to go to Albuquerque to pursue the music business. I'm still kind of curious about, but I had hitchhiked up to uh

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Dallas and I had enough money to take a, a plane from Love Field to uh to Albuquerque and it was there kind of waiting for that flight that I heard about Kent State. So whatever day that was in May of 1970 was kind of my first

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official day as being a professional musician. Ok. So then how did you make it to Houston in 1910? Well, um that's a curious series of events. Um I was actually uh taking the bus from uh like I think it was called spring break maybe in the

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spring of 1970. And I already had, by that time I had a, a steel string Yamaha guitar with a big piece sign on it and I was sitting on it in the Greyhound Station which is down on uh oh, maybe Rusk about where Rusk is, um,

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and I was sitting on it and this old Wino guy came up with this little beanie, you know, and, um, they had a trench coat, these kind of horn room glasses like these. And, and he walked up to me and he, he talked, he, he lost

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his voice box, right? His learning. So he, he talked like this, he forced the error and he came up and he said, oh, can you play that thing? And I said, well, yeah, yeah, you know, I do. All right. You should check out the old quarter.

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Uh, what's that old timer? The old quarter? And he pointed the direction it was a couple of blocks up the street and, um, lo and behold, um, you know, my parents came and fetched me from Albuquerque and I went back to, to Beaumont in the summer

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of 70 and, you know, I was getting itchy footed. There wasn't anything in Beaumont for really, for me to do. And my dad had this, uh, you know, what do you wanna do? So, you know, he wasn't really, you know, uh, you know, totally against me

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doing this, right. But he asked me what I wanted to do and, and, uh, well, I wanna be a folk singer. So he gave me 50 bucks and I took the bus to the Greyhound Station in Houston and I hopped off and I walked up the

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street to the old quarter and I auditioned for Dale so far and he pulled out his Cali after I played him a couple of songs and gave me a couple of dates and it kind of went from there. What, what songs were you playing at that

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time? I was doing, uh, I was still doing some Beatles stuff. Um, the, my opener and I remember this pretty clearly. My opener was everybody's talking by Nelson, everybody's talking and, you know, I still kind of brushing my guitar, you know, that kind of thing and

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not really uh playing with picks too much, but uh that uh Stephen stills. Um definitely Paul Simon April come, she will, you know, I like the finger picking part on that. I never could see. Still can't. But uh Paul Simon Donovan, Donovan songs and some other,

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you know, uh a little bit of Dylan here and there. I wasn't as high on him. I really like Donovan because I, I like Donovan's guitar playing and I thought it was real good, nice and clean and, you know, precise and, you know, uh bit emotive

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too, you know, I mean, he was a very expressive singer and guitar player. What was the old quarter like at that time? Can you describe it? Well, it was kind of at the tail end of the, the Market Square scene. Uh There were a Market Square

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was kind of in the northwest quadrant of downtown. Um I forget the exact street names but there were some other, the, the cellar was kind of the rock and roll, uh, club down there right on the square itself. And then there was Love Street, which is

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kind of the hippie hangout, which was actually kind of right down on Buffalo Vio. And the old quarter was about four or five blocks away from Market Square. But it kind of caught up, you know, like some of the, you know, the suburban people would come

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in, you know, to the city, you know, that kind of thing. So it was part of that scene. Um It was fairly, it, it, it was a small venue. It was like an old warehouse. So you'd walk through the door and, um there was, you know,

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about, oh maybe five or six tables and then it, they had this old piano bar that went in at an angle right out to the middle of the club. So if you're looking long ways, uh the bar was on the, the right and then the stage

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was on the left and between the bar and the stage, there was only room for about one set of tables. So they could stuff, I mean, stuff 100 in there, but, you know, a good crowd would, would have been 50 or 60 people. Um It had

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a small stage, you know, generally there just solo acts were playing um and kind of, you know, a very rudimentary pa I remember it had, you know, the, the vocal mic was the Elvis mic, you know, the square, you know, mics. So the sound wasn't real

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great, you know, they just had, you know, enough to kind of get it and they would eventually get, you know, a, a little better P A system, but it was pretty rudimentary. But, you know, the, the thing was that the, the people who played there, I

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mean, it was just, you know, a parade of future stars and, you know, just really, really great musicians. What, what I really thought was cool about it is the variety of stuff that, that came through. And when I was growing up, you know, we had, as

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I mentioned a little while ago, you know, a kind of, a variety of musical influences and, you know, I liked a lot of different stuff. So for somebody that was coming in, you know, just in the process of defining what they wanted to do, um I

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had a lot to pick and choose from, you know, from the more seasoned folk singers like Don Sanders who by the time I came to Houston was, you know, a, a drawing act, so to speak, seasoned professional, you know, um Guy Clark had already started his

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songwriting, um, some of the songs that he did then only one kind of remained in his, you know, repertoire and down the line, but he was a stalwart, but all the young up and Comers had different things, you know, there was a guy named, uh Fred

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mcclane that would come in to play jazz stuff, you know, so we'd learn different kind of diminished and augmented chords and stuff like that from Fred mcclain. You know, some guys were real good at finger picking, you know, I started getting to be one of those

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Eric Taylor comes to mind. Um, but of course it, and, you know, Lightnin was. Lightnin. Hopkins was lightning. I mean, when he came in it was kind of a special deal. But, um, his influence definitely pervaded the old quarter, you know, that blues, you know, blues

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and e everybody at the old quarter could play a blues and e no doubt about that. But I think, you know, ultimately Towns was kind of the, you know, the, the godfather of the figurehead, um, of what was going on there. Most of the people, you

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know, the, the, the young guys would kind of either emulate guy or towns but, you know, towns seem to kind of have the, uh, you know, a, a simple thing like sitting down, um, you know, most folk singers at the time, you know, would play standing

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up and at the old quarter it's a little more intimate and they had these little stools and, you know, towns guy would stand right. But towns would sit down on the stool and, um, um, you know, once he started doing that, that's what everybody did. Except

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me. I did. Um, so you were playing there? Did you play any other venues, uh, while you were in Houston? That during that period of time, Sand Mountain was the other one. So, um, the kind of the, the, the history of the, the folk music clubs

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went from the jester lounge where town started and that was owned by a guy named, uh, Mac Webster who was one of he really, what that sweet guy, you know, just a lover of folk music. And, um, he wanted to be a folk singer and he

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just, you know, he just wasn't gonna be, you know, everybody kind of knew that. Um, but, you know, he, he loved it and he promoted a lot of, you know, give a lot of people, Guy Clark included, uh their first opening shots at the Jester Lounge

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and from then the gesture kind of fizzled out and everything shifted to Sand Mountain, which was kind of right where, you know, Richmond, uh, you know, dumps into downtown. Um, and Jerry Jeff played Sand Mountain. So that kind of put it on the map in towns.

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Of course, that was his regular gig. Uh John Kerrick was a folk singer, his mom kind of, you know, they, they collaborated, they went in on the club and, but everybody started gravitating towards the old quarter, you know, towns was friends with Rex, you know, from

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way back and, you know, it was just kind of it was they serve beer, you know, for one thing. So, you know, that, that was, uh, an advantage for a lot of people over Sand Mountain. But, uh, you know, it was much more of a bohemian

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type scene. Were they able to, just to make sure that I understand, I feel like 1972 is about the time that liquor by the drink became legal. Yes. And so would that have just been hard liquor or were you able, how, how were they able to

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serve beer at that time? You could have a beer and wine lessons. Yeah. Yeah. Had one. and then the, the, the old quarter kind of had 223 phases. Really? The, the first phase he was in partnership with a guy named Benji Bell. No, no relation. Um,

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and Rex opened it up and uh, it did real well, but they had this chalkboard, a graffiti chalkboard where you could write, you know, basically anything you wanted in the L CV. The liquor control board came in and told him to take it out and he

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refused and they shut the clip down, they shuttered it and took his license away, but he ended up kind of uh, he and Dale started hanging around and they were driving by the old quarter one day and there was a four rent sign on it and

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he called uh, John Toomey was the lawyer that was the uh, that managed the De Georgia State, which was like the quadrant of, uh, of downtown Houston. And, um, you know, so they set him up with a beer and wine license, you know, put it in

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another, the guy's name and got him back into business. And that was the heyday. So you could serve beer and wine and then you could also serve setups, right where, you know, a person could bring in their bottle and you pay a dollar for a 7-Up,

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right? And then you mix your own drink. So, but it was mainly you, not too many people did that really. It was mainly, you know, kind of a beer and wine, but it was liquor and it, you know, Sand Mountain of course, did not. So I

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know, I, I'm glad to hear that distinction. So it was a little fuzzy for me and to add, to add on, you know, just kind of a broad perspective of the Houston and the Texas clip scene. Um, a lot of those little mom and pop, you

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know, get a $300 beer and wine license and a, you know, $200 P A and open your doors. Uh Those places they disappeared after liquor by the drink came in because they just couldn't compete, you know, and then the liquor by the there was a higher

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profit margin and that raised the rents and it just made it harder for, you know, people like Dale and uh, later on with the old quarter to stay in business. Um, a couple of years later you ended up moving to Nashville. Wow. How did that come

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about? Mainly through towns? Um, you know, we might as well get to this but, you know, a lot of us were getting involved in drugs and, you know, I was, you know, dealing with, with a heroin habit and, you know, there's a reference in towns of

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Song Light Freight Liner, bad news from Houston. Half my friends are dying. It was that it was reference to, you know, a lot of us were really getting dragged down by that. Um And, you know, towns recognized that he would, you know, he would have his

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own issues with it, but he'd come into town and then leave and he'd, you know, go out on the road living on the road. My friend supposed to keep you free and clean, which, you know, didn't account for the alcohol, right? But, you know, as far

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as the, the heroin and the hard drugs went, you know, he would be able to kind of get out and kind of make and, and be able to look at what was happening to us and he, you know, told me, look, man, you need to get

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out of here, nas, you know, a good, good place to go. There's a lot happening there. A lot of songwriters I was still at the time kind of wanting to be a songwriter and, you know, of course, I ended up being mainly a guitar player. Um,

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so that was an attraction and mainly just, you know, kind of getting out of town and, you know, I, I knew that, you know, the, the drug thing was kind of dragging me down. So, um, I sold my car to a friend of mine for 100

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and 50 bucks, which was enough for a plane ticket and a half a paper or junk and 50 bucks left over in my pocket when I got to Nashville. So towns were supposed to have been staying at guys. So he gave me guy Clark's number guy,

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of course, had already moved there from L A. And so, you know, I arrive at the airport, you know, get on the floor. Hey guy, it's Micky, I'm, I'm here. He said, well, you're not coming in here. And so many, so many words, you know, where's

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towns? Well, you know, he left the other day, you know, uh, I don't know where he is. He's supposed to be back in a week or so. Hey, let me get, uh, Rocky Hill staying at Jack Clements house. Let me give you that number. So I

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called Rocky Hill, of course, he was, uh, you know, one of the great blues, electric blues players from Houston who was up there doing a record with Jack Clements and say what you will about Rocky. Um, you know, I owe him a debt of gratitude because,

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you know, I had, you know, enough money for a cab to get there. But yeah, come on, you know, we can, you know, we it has to be a low profile but I can put you up, right? So I went over to, he was staying at

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Jack Clement's house on, on Belmont. And uh so uh oh, about a week or so later, um a room became available on in this little house on Ackland Street out near uh Hillsborough Village and um skiddy Sanchez who had come kind of followed guy from L

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A and Richard Dobson who had kind of migrated up there as one of the Houston expatriates. Um, they had just lost a roommate who happened to be Rodney Crowe who had moved in with his girlfriend, right? So they needed a third and, you know, I had,

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I think, you know, the 20 bucks for my share of the rent left over. And so, uh I moved in with them and it became, you know, that was Action central as far as picking and singing and people dropping in and, you know, playing guitar and

00:24:11.119 - 00:24:25.869

introducing new songs and sharing ideas. And of course, you know, it was always characterized by the coffee table with the big half gallon of Jack Daniels in the middle of it. Right. So there was what we did. I mean, it was very, very productive. There was

00:24:25.880 - 00:24:43.099

a lot of songwriting going on a lot of exchange. Um you know, one observer would refer to as a liquid network, you know, where all these things were kind of intersecting and going. And, um you know, I, I had gone up there, you know, as, as

00:24:43.109 - 00:24:58.349

I mentioned, still with the mind of being a songwriter and I had a couple of songs and Roddy Roddy Crow actually uh took me down to his publisher and, you know, the publisher, like the publisher, like these two songs that I had and we demoed them

00:24:58.359 - 00:25:12.569

and wrote the contract and I said, man, it can't be this easy, you know, and of course, you know, like most of them, they all get buried away. But, you know, I, I continue to try to write songs, but I, you know, I could not keep

00:25:12.579 - 00:25:30.459

up with Rodney and Richard and Guy and what towns was doing, you know, towns was still kind of in his heyday. Um And some of the other writers like David uh that would play at this place called Bishop's Pub where all the songwriters kind of congregated.

00:25:31.560 - 00:25:48.069

But um I was already starting to kind of get better on guitar. So we'd be sitting around in these circles and people would have songs, you know, we play Hank Williams songs and just, you know, we sit around and pick for fun and it would come

00:25:48.079 - 00:26:03.400

to the break and they pick it pick. So I became kind of the default lead guitar player in that little circle. And that's where I kind of made the transition from, you know, I didn't totally give up aspiring to be a songwriter and I continued to

00:26:03.410 - 00:26:17.689

write some stuff after that. But, you know, that was the, the shift, the quantum shift, you know, a focus to, you know, acoustic guitar playing lead acoustic guitar and flat picking and finger picking. You know, that's what I do best, you know, that, that's what kind

00:26:17.699 - 00:26:48.380

of separates me from, from the pack a little bit coming into when I first went to two up, you know, the Checkered Flag and everything. I was, I was, uh you know, I was gonna play like this, you know, kind of with an open finger and

00:26:48.390 - 00:27:07.089

kind of brush it and scrum it, that is to that kind of thing, right? So, um what kind of became evident um for one thing is, uh when I auditioned for uh Alan Damron at the Checkered Flag, you know, I had a gut string guitar, you

00:27:07.099 - 00:27:20.329

know, and probably played that song and um he said, well, that's good, you know, I'll give you a shot, I'll give you an opening, uh you know, opening act coming up here. Uh But if you're gonna play clubs, you gotta learn how to use picks. So

00:27:20.339 - 00:27:42.660

I started, you know, it, we're kind of working with this, you know, but still just kind of strumming. So the the big change came and, and that's why I was kind of alluding to towns influence. Um, you know, and, you know, Bob Dylan Drew from Woody

00:27:42.670 - 00:28:21.079

Guthrie and, but the idea of, you know, set up with a song like this start had the little Syncopation and, you know, some more individual string. So that was kind of the stepping stone and then it would come, you know, from there, you know, which towns

00:28:21.089 - 00:28:49.469

was beautifully proficient at. Um, I just started right and kind of just kind of moving up the deck and kind of expanding on that. And, um, you know, towns that, uh, that's something that he wanted to do. And he just, you know, it's kind of like

00:28:49.479 - 00:29:03.410

with my songwriting, there was a certain plateau that I got to. Um, and I think that he really appreciated, you know, that I was kind of stemming from some of the stuff that he was doing and kind of expanding and, and just, you know, kind of

00:29:03.420 - 00:29:16.500

adding to embellishing it, you know, to a degree. And I think that that's the reason that, you know, he chose me as his lead guitar player eventually, you know, because it was a lot of the stuff that I was doing was based in what he was

00:29:16.510 - 00:29:30.439

playing in the first place, you know, so I wasn't gonna do anything to get in the way of that. You know, my job as a lead guitar player was to make his guitar sound better. Right. That was the whole intended purpose. So that's kind of a,

00:29:31.780 - 00:29:59.089

you know, the more to the more flat picking kind of stuff and then, uh, the finger picking, of course, um, I was just when I came to the old quarter, um, and Rex is actually the, the one who, uh, who turned me on to, uh, to

00:29:59.099 - 00:30:20.239

Towns. And one of the very first things that, that I heard, the first Townsman sent, saw that I heard was from Rex, right? And, uh, you know, I was using plastic finger picks at the time and, uh, you know, I noticed that towns have these steel

00:30:20.250 - 00:30:47.300

finger picks and towns, how come we use, uh, steel finger picks? They sound better. Of course, the next day I was down at the music store buying steel finger figs. That, that's the, uh, finger picket for Columbine. And, um, you know, after I, I come to

00:30:47.310 - 00:31:05.229

the old quarter and, um, Rex had actually been out of town and I played a couple of gigs and, uh, Rex had come back from Colorado and, you know, he was there and, uh, he heard my set and, hey, you're a pretty good finger picker, man.

00:31:05.239 - 00:31:25.290

If you like finger picking, you got to hear this guy. So it was actually he played me that song by. So that's where, you know, and I was doing some, you know, Paul Simon type finger picking and everything before that. But um, a lot of the

00:31:25.300 - 00:31:54.510

finger printing that I ended up doing was, you know, kind of based on towns as such. No, thank you. No, it's, it's nice to have you be able to kind of give a little bit more detail. Yeah. Um How did you join Mickey Clark's band? Uh,

00:31:54.520 - 00:32:12.280

Mickey Clark was, he, he had recently moved to Nashville, maybe just a few months before we all kind of converged up there. Um He was from Louisville, Kentucky and was already a veteran. He was an older guy. He was, I think 30 you know, I would

00:32:12.290 - 00:32:27.630

have been 21 or two. So he was more like guy's age one of the, you know, one of the vets and he had actually, um, had a group that played in Greenwich Village, you know, during the heyday. So, um, you know, he had moved to Nashville

00:32:27.640 - 00:32:48.920

to pursue songwriting, uh which he was very good at, but the songwriter scene of course, was Bishop's pub and he came down, I think by that time, um Bronco Newcombe had been kind of the, the hire by the club to kind of MC, the shows and

00:32:48.930 - 00:33:04.939

do the sign up sheet. And, you know, I, I think I'd, by that time I'd kind of take it over that role, uh from Bronco. But regardless of what it was, Mickey came down to Bishop's pub and played and, um by that time I was living

00:33:04.949 - 00:33:23.099

around the corner from the Aklan House on, uh, I think Hillsborough Road and the address was 1929. So I told Mickey, I said, uh, hey, you know, we have these picket parties all, you know, all the time, you know, you need to drop by, you know,

00:33:23.579 - 00:33:38.150

and he asked, we were, it was a stock market crash on Hillsboro Road in 1929. So, I mean, literally the next day he showed up and, uh it might have even been, might have been that first time that he came by and we played some Hank

00:33:38.160 - 00:33:54.619

Williams stuff that I was picking along with him and singing some harmonies and, you know, it was kind of jiving and moving and sounding real good. And, uh Mickey was on the National, I have to kind of backtrack a little bit. He was on uh the

00:33:54.630 - 00:34:12.870

Bitter End, uh National Coffeehouse circuit that, you know, set up with college campuses and it was just uh Godsend for folk singers. Towns really went a long way to establishing his following on that circuit, you know, where he would create like pockets of, you know, diehard

00:34:12.879 - 00:34:30.810

followers, like in the Carolinas, you know, in different parts of the country. So towns had taken rex out to kind of get him out of town, you know, due to the aforementioned, you know, situations that were going on. And, uh, so I knew that how easy

00:34:30.820 - 00:34:46.729

it was for somebody that was on that circuit to add somebody on, you know, you just get another meal ticket in another dorm room. You know, there's really no expense. It's no problem for the Circuit or the colleges at all. So I told Mickey Clark, he

00:34:46.739 - 00:35:03.080

says it was $15. I think it was 25 regardless. I had added up what it would cost to. I do, I'd get free food, so I added up. Ok. How much is a pack of cigarettes and a half pint of Jack Daniels a day and kind

00:35:03.090 - 00:35:19.629

of tab that up and offered that as a figure that I would work for out on the road. So I think it was $25 and, and he said, yeah, well, I've got like this four week tour up the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania, we'll try it out,

00:35:19.840 - 00:35:34.050

see how it works. So, we took off on the road, you know, and, uh, God, I was just, I mean, this was it, you know what I wanted to be a rambling gambling, you know, guitar player, right. We were on the road and, uh, fixing to

00:35:34.060 - 00:35:49.110

do these gigs and it worked out really well. You know, Mickey and I just had a synergy and, you know, we're still very good friends and, um, you know, it was fun playing, you know, that's so much about what was going on then. You know, you

00:35:49.120 - 00:36:06.969

know, the band was your friends and the friends were your band, you know, I mean, that was kind of part of the dynamic and so all that was working. So Mickey at the end of that tour, um went ahead. He, he offered me $100 a week.

00:36:07.719 - 00:36:28.330

Uh and he said he had gigs in Toronto, uh a month long gig in Jackson Hole Wyoming, which I love the mountains. And, uh you know, that was very, very appealing. And um a weeklong gig at the Earl of Old Town in Chicago and Ricky, you're,

00:36:28.340 - 00:36:42.850

uh, the Earl of Old Town was like, you know, that was the old quarter. It was extremely prestigious club, you know, big, that was a big time gig, you know, maybe not quite as important as folk city in, in New York, right? But right on the,

00:36:42.879 - 00:36:59.239

probably the second most important folk club in the United States. So, um, yeah, I think you got it. So we did these, this tour for about a year and, you know, we played Jackson Hole a couple of times and, uh, the Earl of Old Town several

00:36:59.250 - 00:37:18.949

times. And, you know, I got to meet some really, really great people up there and we got to play with some, you know, probably most notably Gamble Rogers, um, that we were at least one time, maybe twice that we were paired with for five nights. And,

00:37:18.959 - 00:37:35.879

uh, you know, it just one of the great storytellers in Americana, one of the great finger pickers really in American folk music. Um, and so that was a real treat. We became good friends with Steve Goodman and, um, you know, met Bob Gibson, of course, he

00:37:35.889 - 00:37:51.070

was, you know, he, he, the guy that wrote a and he was kind of, you know, a major player during the folk room in the early sixties. He was kind of in the middle of a comeback. Um, it was at the Earl of Old Town where

00:37:51.080 - 00:38:10.610

Mickey and I were playing one night and it was the night before Bob Dylan was gonna launch his tour with the band, kind of his comeback tour with the band and we didn't really expect it or anything, but we were like into our second song and

00:38:10.620 - 00:38:29.949

here comes this cluster of hippie looking, you know, all with sun shades on, right that sat back in the corner, you know, sure enough, you know, there's Bob Dylan sitting there in the earl of old town catching our gig, right. So, um, you know, we did,

00:38:29.959 - 00:38:43.110

but neither one of us were the least bit intimidated, you know, I was, I was to, you know, brash, to even think about it. You know, I was pretty confident in what I was doing guitar wise. And so we played a good set, there was a

00:38:43.120 - 00:39:02.209

good crowd there. Um, you know, they paid up and left and it was, uh, several months later when an interview in Rolling Stone, the Ben Tores interview came out and Dylan was talking, uh talking about starting a label, you know, like the Beatles had tried Apple,

00:39:02.219 - 00:39:20.610

you know, it was kind of the, the thing that some of the musicians were doing. And um the Ben Tores asked him about, you know, who's gonna be on this label. And he talked about Leon Red Bone and some other guys chatting along and, uh, Tori

00:39:20.689 - 00:39:38.590

and anybody else that you seen that you liked? And he said, yeah, a couple of guys in Chicago were good, Mickey Clark and another Mickey. So if I ever meet Bob Dylan, I'm gonna introduce Bob. I'm another Mickey. Mhm. But it was nice to have a

00:39:38.600 - 00:39:56.489

little affirmation. We, we didn't, obviously, we didn't get the record deal but, but they're still special nonetheless. Um How did that come to an end? Well, you, you know, I, I wanted to do, you know, I always kind of, you know, I started off as a

00:39:56.500 - 00:40:10.050

solo performer, you know, and even in, back in the old garage band days, I was a drummer, but I was basically the front man. I was the singer in the band and, you know, called the shots and that kind of thing. So, you know, I felt

00:40:10.060 - 00:40:24.739

like that I had had, you know, got my experience and, you know, I had some connections in Houston and, um, you know, I wanted to go back to Houston and give it a try as Mickey White, you know, try to get this thing going again. And,

00:40:25.449 - 00:40:37.899

you know, it was very, you know, Mickey was disappointed. I mean, we had a good, good duo. I mean, we, we did really well and, you know, he, he would have preferred that. I keep playing with him, but it was amicable, you know, he understood, you

00:40:37.909 - 00:40:57.070

know, where I was coming from. So I came back to Houston in the spring, late spring of, uh, 74 and I called my at Liberty Hall and he gave me an opening shot at Liberty Hall and I really pulled it off, opening for free to the

00:40:57.080 - 00:41:12.179

fire dogs, which was Marsha Ball's band back then and, you know, did good, you know, I played it like a weeklong gig at the old quarter and, you know, I had good crowds, you know, as a headliner. Um, you know, and everything was rocking and rolling

00:41:12.189 - 00:41:31.719

pretty good. And, um, towns had been out of town, you know, still doing the, the, uh, coffee house circuit. He blows back into town and we ran into each other on the front steps of the truck selling house where Darryl Harris lived. That was kind of

00:41:31.729 - 00:41:50.030

the place where we all, one or more of us inhabited that little four unit apartment, um, which is just about a mile and a half up the road. Um, and we were waiting on Darryl, right? Or Dale. Probably one of the two anyway, you know, they

00:41:50.040 - 00:42:06.139

were, we were locked out. So we were sitting on the front steps and pulled out our guitars and Towns hadn't heard me play in a year. So he starts picking some of his new songs and I start playing, hey, man, you know, you would have played

00:42:06.149 - 00:42:21.040

at the basement coffee house at UU of H you would have played with me tonight and you got it right. So I had come back and, you know, to do Mickey White but within, uh, you know, just a few weeks, you know, of being there. Um

00:42:21.260 - 00:42:36.419

Towns, it was kind of like with Mickey Clark, you know, we played the one gig and Town said, well, I got four more. Um You wanna do those with me? Yeah, sure. So we played the Saxon pub, we played the Ho opened it for Hoyt Aton

00:42:36.429 - 00:42:55.709

at Liberty Hall. It was, that was a, that was a great experience. It was, uh, it was kind of fun to watch Towns who had, you know, been so charming with everybody. You know, he was really, you know, a great, a great backstage presence, you know,

00:42:55.719 - 00:43:10.449

because people would come and just be in awe of the guy, right? You know, they'd just be, you know, like, wow, I'm in the presence of greatness and, you know, the kind of fawning over him and stuff like that. And, uh, it was interesting to see

00:43:10.459 - 00:43:25.929

that Towns with Hoyt Abston where the roles were reversed because Towns was just like, in awe of, you know, Hoyt was like one of his heroes. I mean, it was kind of interesting to, to see that dynamic, you know, that Towns had those feelings and somebody

00:43:25.939 - 00:43:46.570

that had really influenced, it was important to him, um, as well. But we played the Saxon pub and then Towns had been working on the record, which was supposed to be seven come 11 and it ended up coming out as the Nashville sessions. Um, anyway, he

00:43:46.580 - 00:43:57.840

had recorded most of the stuff, but they were gonna clean it up and he wanted me to play the lead on a couple of things. So, um, you know, he paid for my plane ticket and we flew up to Nashville and that was, you know, I've

00:43:57.850 - 00:44:13.800

been in the studio a little bit before, but that was a real terrific experience for me because I got to go in, you know, working with Chuck Cochran and Garth on the, on the board, you know, one of the great Nashville engineers and, uh, you know,

00:44:13.810 - 00:44:30.739

working with the big boys, you know, only one of my, uh, only one of my performances ended up on the record, but it was a pretty definitive play, still kind of holds up. So was, was that at Jack Clements studio, Jack Clements Studio? Yeah, that was

00:44:30.750 - 00:44:46.199

the, actually the one that it was called Jack's Tracks at the time. He had the two studios that were kind of out on Belmont towards his house and then Jack's tracks was one of the those old houses right there on Music Road. And was this about,

00:44:46.209 - 00:45:04.530

this is about coming to the time where John Lomax the third started to become a manager for Towns. I think that just like a little bit later, that's gonna come a little bit later. So, um basically what, what happened is, you know, towns was, he was

00:45:04.540 - 00:45:20.580

at his peak right then and, um, you know, the shows were great. He was writing this brilliant stuff, you know, that's right when he wrote Pancho and Lefty and, you know, two girls. And if I needed you and, you know, some of his, you know, the

00:45:20.590 - 00:45:33.800

greatest stuff and he was still, you know, in the game and he knew it and he was very proud of that record. Um You know, I thought it was great. There were, you know, some of the critics were still, you know, they always complained about Towns

00:45:33.810 - 00:45:48.719

being overproduced, you know. Um I can tell you this, if Towns complained about it, it wouldn't be on there. You know, he, he had total veto power on any anything. And I saw that dynamic in the studio. He was very, very much involved in the recordings

00:45:48.729 - 00:46:10.899

of his records. Um But he was, you know, energized. So he and I were playing and we went back down and Rex had moved back down to Kema Texas and was trying to recover from his issues. And he was playing in this band with a guy

00:46:10.909 - 00:46:25.189

named Ed Whelan and they just played, you know, country Honky Tonk dance more stuff. And, um, so towns and I went down there to kind of hang out and, you know, we would all scatter to the mountains during the summer. I, you know, I've been doing

00:46:25.199 - 00:46:39.270

that for years and that was one of the things that towns that I kind of had in common. So we knew that we were both fixing to go our separate ways. Um But I, you know, I'll never forget it. We were sitting there at one of

00:46:39.280 - 00:46:55.629

the little round tables, you know, listening to Rex make his comeback, play a bass. You know, that's how Rex kind of kept his, he kept in touch with music is he, he became a really good bass player. So town said, well, look, man, we got this

00:46:55.639 - 00:47:10.850

record coming out in the fall. He would always release his records in the fall and go on tour, you know, that he had done that with the previous five or six records. And, you know, let's get reps bass player. Uh We'll get some tour and support

00:47:10.860 - 00:47:32.020

from the label and we'll go out on tour in the fall, uh, you know, in conjunction with the release of the record. So we all, you know, re gathered during the, during September and unfortunately, the record got shelved, but the tour went on and the tour

00:47:32.030 - 00:47:44.189

started off pretty good. We, you know, we played some good gigs and we played the Earl of Old Town, you know, some of the connections that I've made with Mickey Clark. Uh, you know, I was able to call Earl and book us, you know, that kind

00:47:44.199 - 00:48:02.810

of thing. And, um, so it was going pretty good. Uh, and right about that time, uh, Johnny Gi, it was kind of a friend of ours. Um, one of the, what I call the Milby Mafia, they were all kind of friends of Darryl Harris and there's

00:48:02.820 - 00:48:19.469

a kind of an extensive network there, but he drove up in front of a truck, sell one day with this 30 ft blue mo motor home, right? And Chad said, you know, Johnny, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna quit your job and you're gonna drive

00:48:19.479 - 00:48:35.860

us around the country on this tour. And, uh, it was right during the, the first oil crunch and the, you know, the price of motor homes are just plummeted, right? He got this thing for a song that was brand spanking new. And Johnny said, yeah, fine.

00:48:36.250 - 00:48:56.139

So it was really pretty crazy with the, you know, the four of us and Johnny, you know, would, would go toe to toe. But after the first stretch of the tour, um we started adding people on, you know, the towns was the first to break no

00:48:56.149 - 00:49:14.909

girls on the road rule. And brought his new girlfriend, Cindy along and then it just kind of escalated from there, Richard Dobson joined because he wanted to, you know, tape our adventures and of course, that's documented in the, the Gulf Coast boys. Um, but in my

00:49:14.919 - 00:49:31.100

view, what happened and being, you know, like working with towns and not just musically and his friends and everything but, you know, seeing his business strategies, what he wanted to, to do, um, he had a game plan, you know, he wasn't just, you know, out there

00:49:31.110 - 00:49:48.699

blithering along, you know, taking what would come his way. You know, he had things that he wanted to do. He knew he wouldn't be a big star, but, you know, he wanted to be big enough and I could just see his frustrating frustration mounting. Um, as

00:49:48.709 - 00:50:08.040

each one of these gigs started kind of unraveling and we never got the tour support, you know, Kevin Eggers, and I'm not gonna blame him at all. Right, because I think Kevin did some great work with Towns and they were collaborators and partners and, um, but

00:50:08.520 - 00:50:30.800

I think Kevin's gift was moving money around and there wasn't anywhere to move and we never got the tour support. Kevin was unable to pay Jack the studio time. So the record never came out and the tour just got crazier and crazier and crazier and I,

00:50:30.810 - 00:50:51.350

and I saw Towns, you know, just over this period of time, just losing interest in being more inclined to blow the gigs and, um, you know, it, it was basically just unraveling, you know. So, um, in the meantime, me and Rex were kind of stepping up

00:50:51.550 - 00:51:07.149

to kind of fill, you know, uh, towns more and more came to where he just turned the stage over to us, especially if we were playing, you know, the ski joints and things like that because Rex and I had just kind of off color, you know,

00:51:07.159 - 00:51:21.790

funny stuff and, you know, things like that. So we, we would do more and more of that kind of stuff and, um, you know, going back to, you know, my personally wanting to be the front and the singer in the band and, um, you know, I

00:51:21.800 - 00:51:36.379

told Towns after one of our gigs in Denver that, you know, when this tour is up, you know, about me and Rex are gonna go do the Hemorrhage Mountain Boys. So we kind of parted ways and at that point in time, you know, towns would have

00:51:36.389 - 00:51:55.080

within a year or two moved back to, uh, to Nashville. But, you know, that was certainly the low point of his career and, you know, you could just, you know, he wouldn't tell anybody, you know, because that wasn't part of the persona of being, you know,

00:51:55.090 - 00:52:12.340

the rambling gambler, you know, the crazies artist, you know, nobody's gonna buy my paintings until I'm dead kind of thing. Right. And, uh, but that wasn't his mo at the time, you know, when he was, you know, that was something that he adopted as a way

00:52:12.350 - 00:52:32.679

of or adapted as a way of dealing with his disappointment and all that stuff and rattling for him at the same time to you. Um You guys started to form the Hem Ridge Mountain Boys. Can you talk more about that band? Well, uh you know, Rex

00:52:32.689 - 00:52:48.100

and I eventually, um you know, I, I'm, I'm the one that came up with the term aggressive fuck, ok. And like I played a little bit, you know, the, the a, a lot of, a lot of my music was a little, a little bit more assertive

00:52:48.780 - 00:53:05.780

and, um, you know, that's, that's what I had in mind and, you know, Rex and I were just a, a duo at the time, but, but we added a drummer very quickly. It was a guy named David Ake who played for, uh Kenneth Threat um in

00:53:05.790 - 00:53:22.370

Austin and he started playing with us. So it was an amplified trio. You know, I would have, you know, a amplify my guitar, um But still acoustic, right? Um And we started playing, we were able to play a little bit bigger venues that way, like the

00:53:22.379 - 00:53:39.719

split rail and, you know, so we got gigs, we were doing pretty good Rex and I had a brief falling out. But, um, you know, we put things back together pretty quickly and, um we went in to make a record and David Ay, bless his heart.

00:53:39.729 - 00:53:55.590

You know, I mean, he was great for the gigs but didn't do real well in the studio and we, we'd gone in with the Charlie Bickley studio up in the Heights and Bigley's idea was for us to just go in and do you know what's your

00:53:55.600 - 00:54:13.540

side and all our funny stuff? Right. You know, just kind of smothers brothers. Well, no, you know, we, I, I wanted to do an EP of our songs, right? And the tapes just weren't going very well. And so we kind of, you know, we got one,

00:54:13.550 - 00:54:29.860

we got one song recorded which is 86 and that, that is, uh, David Ake playing, you know, the brushes or that kind of swing tune, uh, that Rex and Townsend I wrote. Um, but that was it, you know, so we kind of, you know, stepped back

00:54:29.870 - 00:54:49.889

a little bit and, uh, Bickley recommended that we do Rex's version of up against the wall, redneck mother. So did pig Latin. Well, we didn't really want, you know, that wasn't the gate, you know, the idea to be a novelty act, you know, that was never

00:54:49.899 - 00:55:06.169

our intention at all. Um, but Vicky's next door neighbor was a drummer and he had worked in his studio and said, yeah, this guy, you know, he's great. His name is Mike Edwards. You know, he'd love to come in and do it. So we showed back

00:55:06.179 - 00:55:22.739

up and, you know, in three minutes and 20 seconds or, you know, whatever the time we knocked that song out, we overdubbed a couple of things. Um, but, you know, Mike was just right in there, first cut, first take and, um, once again he was, you

00:55:22.750 - 00:55:36.649

know, we got along, we were friends, you know, we, you know, we liked the interaction and Mike showed up at one of our gigs at Anderson Fair and it turns out, you know, I think Rex and I were doing that as a duo because we kind

00:55:36.659 - 00:55:49.969

of dropped David, what we were looking for a drummer and, hey, Mike, we got like five gigs lined up and he said, man, I got a van and a P A, let's do it. So that was, you know, really the core of the Hemorrhage Mountain Boys

00:55:49.979 - 00:56:07.350

in my view and what our distinct sound was was that amplified acoustic guitar, bass and drums with the two part harmonies and what I play now, that's, that's what I do. I use a bass player and a drummer, you know, with an amplified acoustic guitar. And,

00:56:07.360 - 00:56:20.860

you know, that's, it's really unique, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a fairly, you know, distinctive sound. Not very many people do it, you know, there's probably a good reason for that. But, you know, it, it is the thing that, that I, I think that was

00:56:20.870 - 00:56:36.620

the thing that kind of defined our sound. Um, we did eventually add an electric guitar player, Andre Matthews. Um, we weren't really looking for another guitar player. We wanted to add like a piano or a saxophone or something like that. We wanted to add 1/4 piece.

00:56:37.149 - 00:56:51.310

Um, but he sat in with us on a couple of gigs and it sounded real good. So, hey, let's do it. So it remained, you know, for about the last two or three years of, you know, a four piece band and it was pretty cool because

00:56:51.320 - 00:57:04.469

we could take that four piece band into Anderson Fair and play it like a folk gig or we could take the four piece band to pop up late leaves out in eight leaf and play it as a dance band. You know, it was a very pretty

00:57:04.479 - 00:57:20.899

versatile lineup in that sense. But, you know, I think with the, the music business people and the reviewers and the press and that kind of thing, we were kind of pigeonholed into this novelty act thing because of redneck mother. That was our, you know, our hit,

00:57:21.110 - 00:57:36.159

the medley of our hit. So, you know, I think business wise, we had a difficult time overcoming that, you know, kind of, you know, that identify well, they're just a novelty act. Um Our followers didn't look at them at all, you know, that I think that

00:57:36.169 - 00:57:51.550

they knew what we were doing and it was a pretty cool sound. No, I've I've heard it, it's staring ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba ba ba, it's really hard. It's, it's like, kind of hard. Yeah, it's aggressive folk music. That's what it is. Yeah.

00:57:52.770 - 00:58:10.120

Which was fun. Um, so then the Ridge Mountain Boys kind of started to tour with towns, right? So, it's like you guys were kind of together as a unit in Houston for a while, right? A little bit. Yeah, we played, we played gigs in Houston. You're

00:58:10.129 - 00:58:27.679

that, the tour that lasted from the fall of 74 to the spring of 75. We probably played two or three times in Houston. You know, the sweetheart of Texas. I think we did, we did one of the old quarter as well. The sweetheart was kind of,

00:58:27.689 - 00:58:44.000

it was a bigger venue and more money and we really like Bruce Bryant. Um, so, you know, usually in this room, what I went back with towns, you know, he was always pretty, you know, the kind of the business deal was that, you know, you, you

00:58:44.010 - 00:58:57.409

pick the club in that particular town and that's the one you play. You know, so you don't try to, you know, play one club over off against the other and you get loyalty and you get, you're picking dates that way, right? You know, when they know,

00:58:57.419 - 00:59:14.010

hey, we're gonna tour that area. Let's look at some dates and then you kind of wrap it around, uh, that particular venue at that particular time. So, yeah, we played, you know, I mean, we, we did, um, you know, the first Midwest tour to Chicago and

00:59:14.469 - 00:59:31.449

uh Milwaukee and, you know, places like that. And then we did the West tour to Jackson Hole. Uh and then we did various configurations, uh all over Texas, you know, Dallas Fort Worth and then just to make sure I understand it right, then you kind of

00:59:31.459 - 00:59:47.159

came back in, through like the mid to late eighties and you were kind of more stationed with the Hemorrhage Mountain Boys in Houston. We did it, I mean, not mid, mid to late 19 seventies. Sorry, I didn't mean eighties. Yeah, the, the boys basically played in

00:59:47.169 - 01:00:04.929

and around Texas. We did a few, a couple of tours. We did, went back up to Jackson Hole and did that one. but mainly Texas, mainly Southeast Texas. Um, you know, Houston, uh, Beaumont Galveston, we had like a regular club in Galveston that we played. Um,

01:00:05.919 - 01:00:24.510

Austin, of course, why did that, that end up coming to an end? Well, it just kind of ran out of gas. Mike ended up being less and less reliable. Um, you know, he was married and, you know, he, he just, you know, he, he left us

01:00:24.520 - 01:00:39.040

at one time and then kind of came back and, you know, he, he was becoming less, less reliable. I'll put it that way. Um, and it was kind of rutted. We we just weren't going anywhere. We had kind of plateaued, we could fill all the clubs

01:00:39.050 - 01:00:53.350

in Houston. Right. But, you know, we just never could kind of break it into that next level. We did have a booking agent for a while. Um, you know, we had some patrons, you know, we're, you know, we really upped our equipment, you know, we had

01:00:53.699 - 01:01:09.040

publicity photos, we had a good demo tape that we did at Bickley. You know, we had some stuff going, right. Um But it just got to a certain point and stopped, right. We couldn't kind of break out of that regional, we couldn't get the record deal

01:01:09.050 - 01:01:30.850

that we wanted. Um So I was kind of, you know, Rex and I were trying to keep it alive. We play as a duo on Tuesday night, Hola Hands is the Green gang. So we had these like uh soda jerk shirts, white, you know, white and

01:01:30.860 - 01:01:48.179

red striped soda jerk shirts that we play and that was the green gang to kind of differentiate between, you know, the Full Him Ridge Mountain Boys. Um So we were trying to hang in there, Rex and I were still, you know, good friends and hanging out

01:01:48.189 - 01:02:02.060

and, you know, trying to collaborate and come up with new stuff. But, you know, from a business perspective, we were and, and I wanted to travel too. I mean, that's always, you know, I love tour with Mickey Clark and the towns and that kind of thing.

01:02:02.070 - 01:02:21.189

So, it was the fall of 1980 and we had wrapped up that year. Of course, being, uh Lucinda's band on her second record, uh Happy Woman Blues. Can you talk more about that? Yeah, I will. Um, Lucinda came, uh, you know, I, I knew her the

01:02:21.199 - 01:02:40.080

big 1929 house in Nashville. She was a, you know, a roommate there. Rodney Crowe was also a, a roommate in that house. We were all taken down to, uh, the, the cops came in and busted an all night picking party one night in Nashville and took

01:02:40.090 - 01:02:54.459

us. So we all spent a night in jail together. So it has some bonding. But, um, Lucinda of course, was playing, you know, her 12 string and playing all this Robert Johnson stuff, you know, she, she had that distinctive voice, you know, that kind of bone

01:02:54.469 - 01:03:12.889

wine Lucinda thing, you know, and everybody loved her, you know, she just had, you know, terrific energy. Um, but I hadn't seen her in several years, you know, I think she went back to Louisiana. She was hanging in Arkansas, you know, but in the meantime, you

01:03:12.899 - 01:03:30.489

know, unbeknownst to me, you know, her ambition was to become a songwriter, you know, her father was a poet and so she shows up to Anderson Fair. We had this, I mean, literally it was a big round table there in the main entrance of Anderson Fair

01:03:30.810 - 01:03:46.139

and it was an Algonquin round table big time. You know, people would show up there at noon and, uh, you know, kind of more from the coffee to the beer and eat the dollar bowls of spaghetti that they'd serve for lunch. And occasionally there was music

01:03:46.149 - 01:04:05.270

going on in the, in the, the listening room, but it was kind of a daytime, daytime scene. And, uh, Lucinda shows up one day and she said, look, I've got all these songs and um, I want to demo them and I was wondering if you guys

01:04:05.280 - 01:04:23.310

would be interested in backing me up, you know, that was when kind of the hemorrhage boys were, you know, kind of at our peak and had a reputation going and, uh, yeah, sure, that sounds great. So we started, um, you know, looking around for studios where

01:04:23.320 - 01:04:44.979

we could do this demo. And right about that time, Folkways Records came up with some money. She had done AAA blues record with John Gramado of, you know, all those traditional blues things and from her earlier incarnation. So, um Folkways came up with 500 bucks for

01:04:44.989 - 01:05:00.770

her to do a record. So we had heard that, uh Mickey Moody down at Sugar Hill Records, you know, if you go in and kind of, you know, work up during the off hour time, you know, cut you a deal. So we went down and, and

01:05:00.780 - 01:05:17.070

talked to him and we told him that, you know, we have X amount of money. Um And we would want to record these 12 songs. Um Can we do it for 500 bucks? And he said, yeah, yeah, let's do that, get it. So we came back

01:05:17.080 - 01:05:35.020

in and we set up me and, and you know, Mike in the meantime, in one of his flaky periods didn't show up for one of the gigs. But you know what would, when that kind of semi collaboration started happening, Lucinda had gigs and we had gigs.

01:05:35.290 - 01:05:51.100

So for her gigs, the Hemorrhage Mountain Boys would back her up and for our gigs, she would come up and play as a, you know, kind of a guest featured artist. And um anyway, from one of her gigs, Mike didn't show up. So, you know, that

01:05:51.110 - 01:06:05.000

kind of eliminated the use of the drummer, you know, in the studio. Well, you know, he didn't, you know, I don't wanna have to rehearse it. So we went in with just uh Lucinda and me and Rex and we let the tapes roll and we cut

01:06:05.010 - 01:06:26.229

the songs hot and we, we cut four songs on the first day and we came back in the next day and Mickey booty hits the play button and here comes the songs that we have recorded the night before with a drummer and it's, we all looked

01:06:26.239 - 01:06:45.540

at each other and man, that sounds great, you know, um and you know, you got to give Rex props on that, you know, overdubbing drums is, you know, the, the hardest thing to do. Right. I mean, there's no, as far as overdubbing in a studio, it's

01:06:45.550 - 01:07:00.290

a really, really difficult thing and you can't do it without a solid bass player. But this black drummer named Ira Wilks went in there and hammered him out and he was, like, played right in the pocket and, um, you know, I don't want to create a

01:07:00.300 - 01:07:21.969

controversy or anything. Lucinda had later on told an interviewer that, you know, that, you know, that it was kind of thrust on her. Um But my recollection does not coincide with that, that um that we all thought it was great and, you know, uh kind of

01:07:21.979 - 01:07:38.810

support that argument by pointing out that, that he had also added a slap bass to the song Happy Woman blues and that was rejected. Ok. Well, we didn't like that. So we're not gonna use that, but we like Ira Hayes and Ira Wilts actually. And um

01:07:39.820 - 01:07:52.350

so Mickey Moody said, well, he'll play the rest of the record $25 a cut. So at that point in time, Lucinda had a, a kind of a patron, you know, a friend where she could uh borrow a little bit more money so we could come in

01:07:52.360 - 01:08:07.189

and, and produce it up a little bit. So Ira Ira Wilks played the rest of the, the cuts with us and then we brought in Malcolm uh, forget his last name. He was kind of the, you know, the fiddle player. Uh, we brought him in to

01:08:07.199 - 01:08:23.399

play on Lafayette and we brought Andre Matthews to play slide guitar and other lead guitar parts on a couple of things. So there were a few overdubs. We did a little bit of vocal harmony, overdubbing and produced it up a little bit and that was the

01:08:23.410 - 01:08:38.060

final product. It came out. The total tab was two grand, $1900 I think. And, uh, you know, we're still, you know, we're pretty proud of that. II, I was listening, just happened to be listening to one of the folk music shows on the radio and they

01:08:38.069 - 01:08:54.379

were doing the Lucinda thing and, you know, they were playing songs from her different records and one of them was one of the ones off Happy Woman Blues in my view, you know, it didn't drop off at all, you know, and then, you know, they cut

01:08:54.509 - 01:09:07.419

and a lot of people really, because it was kind of like fresh and unadorned, you know, kind of, you know, cut live and hot that a lot of people like that aspect of it. So I think it's, I think it's held up. I'll put it that

01:09:07.430 - 01:09:37.160

way. Did you do any other session work in town? Um Yeah, I did with Richard Dobson. Yes. Uh, recorded his, um, in Texas last December, his first record that would have been in the fall of 75 um Rex and I had kind of, we took about

01:09:37.169 - 01:09:50.850

two or three months off and some kind of hissy fit of some sort. Um, but um Richard had come to town and he had a little bit of a budget and he had a, a old friend of his Rock Romano that was an engineer and a

01:09:50.859 - 01:10:10.560

producer. And Richard didn't have a lot of experience playing with the bands and there was this group called Medicine Wheel, uh, that rock knew. So I went in as kind of kind of a go between, you know, kind of a, you know, to kind of, you

01:10:10.569 - 01:10:24.660

know, interpret in band form, you know, Richard stuff to the band, you know, you know, doing some, you know, like starts and stops and kind of arrangements for the league break, goes here and, you know, that kind of thing. So, um, and I played on virtually

01:10:24.669 - 01:10:43.180

every, I think there's all but a couple of tracks I think on that record I played on. So, let's see. Um, you were talking a little bit more about the playing at Anderson Fair and being there for those, um, those kind of influential times where everybody

01:10:43.189 - 01:10:54.419

was kind of coming around and sharing their work. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Well, it was, you know, that was the, you know, the, the bohemian scene had, you know, shifted from the jester, it kind of bounced off the Sand Mountain to

01:10:54.430 - 01:11:11.899

the old quarter and then, you know, Mosie to Anderson Fair by the mid seventies, um, we kind of were pretty snotty towards them, you know, I think early on it was, you know, we were still kind of the hardcore urbanite, you know, Anderson Vera was the

01:11:11.910 - 01:11:24.120

hippie giffy place. But the, I, I think the, you know, and I love Tim Lever Leatherwood and he's done a great job and the place is still going and you gotta hand it to him and he's put a lot of his heart and soul and money

01:11:24.129 - 01:11:38.850

into it. Um But in my view, uh it really kind of hit its heyday with Roger Ruffcorn was uh in charge of the booking, you know, he was kind of the figurehead of the club. It was kind of a consortium, you know, with Roger just kind

01:11:38.859 - 01:11:53.339

of emerged out of the pack. He's the guy that I think he heard us play with uh at Liberty Hall with Steve and he's the guy that, hey, I, I want you in my club, you know, he, he recognized the hemorrhage boys, you know what we

01:11:53.350 - 01:12:13.509

were. So I think Roger had a lot to do with drawing that crowd in and kind of legitimizing it. Um One of the things that he did was to do Blue Wednesday and that started with Rocky Hill actually playing every Wednesday. And, you know, it all

01:12:13.520 - 01:12:29.350

of a sudden, you know, there was a place to go and that was happening in the middle of the week and it was packed. And so the blue, the Blue Wednesdays tended to kind of start drawing in these other art, you know, like artists and photographers

01:12:29.359 - 01:12:45.350

and like this skating group called the Urban Animals. And the Z Brothers would eventually, you know, show up doing street theater in front of uh in front of Anderson Fair. So it just kind of attracted all that stuff. And of course they were open during the

01:12:45.359 - 01:12:59.390

day, you know, so we would like to go down there and hang out and, you know, just never could tell, you know, who was gonna drop in and have what to say or what new song to play. It was a really, a very, very productive scene.

01:12:59.490 - 01:13:16.620

One of the things that I kind of that I think has kind of fallen out in the music business is that you don't see too many of those, you know, it's kind of, you know, most of the clubs are, are not just social hangouts, you know,

01:13:16.629 - 01:13:34.060

they're kind of music venues and you, you go there in time for sound check and that's kind of it. Um So what then led you to start, um, exclusively touring with towns? Well, um as I was talking about a little while ago, um, you know, the

01:13:34.209 - 01:13:51.029

Ridge Boys are kind of plateaued in kind of half, plateau, half running out of gas. And John Cheatham, who would you, you asked about John Lomax a little, a little while ago, John Lomax was uh when towns had kind of hit that low point. Uh in

01:13:51.040 - 01:14:08.720

the mid seventies, uh Lomax took over his management and he put a, he started a towns fan club and advertised it in Rolling Stone and, you know, got this unbelievable response, you know, I think that that made a lot of difference with towns, you know, and

01:14:08.729 - 01:14:29.470

kind of, you know, picking up his spirits. Um Lomas is not the greatest of business. Uh Neither was John Chito for that matter, but, you know, Towns knew him from Clarksdale and approached him about um managing him. So Towns had actually done a record um in

01:14:29.479 - 01:14:50.430

the late seventies, um with chips moment producing and he was gonna go on tour and do the whole shebang, you know, this time they did have some promotional money and a tour set up and he had broken his arm, right. And that kind of scuttled that,

01:14:50.439 - 01:15:09.580

but he was Towns was kind of moving back up a little bit and he, you know, he was doing some more touring and there was this promoter in Vermont that wanted to do promote a tour for Towns up in the New England area who had contacted

01:15:09.589 - 01:15:31.069

Cheatham. At that point in time, Townes's backup band, uh mainly his guitar player, Rooster Roland had gone back to school, I believe. So he had this tour set up without a guitar player. So, Chito called me and ask if I wanted to do these dates and

01:15:32.339 - 01:15:46.359

it was a no brainer. You know, I went to Rex and, you know, I'm sorry, you know, I had to break up the band and everything but, you know, and he understood. Right. I mean, we, it was never really a problem at all. But, uh, that's

01:15:46.370 - 01:16:05.709

when towns and reunited. So we actually had, uh, during that tour, we had Jimmy Gray, um, still on bass. So it was a trio and the tour itself was a bust. The promoter was well intended, but he kind of put, you know, cashed all his chips

01:16:05.720 - 01:16:21.589

with this one big show that he wanted to promote and nobody showed and, you know, it was hot chicks and, you know, policemen visiting the door of this farmhouse that we were staying, you know, that, uh, you know, where we knew that that that gig had

01:16:21.600 - 01:16:40.490

unraveled. So we, we had a, we, we played one gig that we did play was Guie Folk City. And, you know, of course, folk cities where Bob Dylan, bro, Paul, Simon, Phil Oaks, you know, I mean, it was the Maria Mulder, you know, it was the,

01:16:40.500 - 01:16:57.270

it was the scene in the heyday of the folk boat in New York City and it was still extremely prestigious, I mean, big time gig. And that was one that came through and it was packed and it was just a, a glorious night. You know, I

01:16:57.279 - 01:17:12.970

mean, it's just probably, you know, one of the, one of my fondest memories of any gig that I've ever done, uh, Towns was just on the money. You know, he was in his element. He had the sophisticated crowd that, you know, understood where he was coming

01:17:12.979 - 01:17:31.149

from and, you know, got his jokes and loved his music and, and, you know, I'll, I'll never forget, you know, that, uh, you know, he'd pop off a good one liner. You know, the crowd would just erupt in laughter and he would turn around to me.

01:17:31.160 - 01:17:44.890

I was standing on his left with this big grin, you know, it was just like this, hey, this is what it's all about, man. This is why we do this and not, you know, just our musical thing, but our friendship and, you know, all that and

01:17:44.899 - 01:18:04.040

it was just a, a real moment, you know, the backstage was just rex ended up. He had showed up because he had moved with his wife out to Long Island to work at his father's father-in-law's, uh, the windmill business, right? So he showed up other, you

01:18:04.049 - 01:18:19.560

know, notables and everything. I can't recall who all but, you know, it, it was a scene for sure. And, uh, so anyway, that gig was really, really good. Um But the rest of them were kind of a bust. We had enough money to kind of get

01:18:19.569 - 01:18:35.290

back. We had one other gig at the Child Herald in, uh, Washington DC. And so, you know, so we're driving and we kind of got caught behind and we're, you know, pulling up at the last minute and we walk into the Child Herald and, you know,

01:18:35.299 - 01:18:50.169

walk up to the bar and the bartender, New Towns and hey, towns, good to see you. What are you doing here? It turns out there was no gig at the Child Herald. So I think we even borrowed 20 bucks for the bartender, you know, to make

01:18:50.180 - 01:19:05.729

sure we had enough gas. So we ended towns and I ended up at this little farmhouse outside of Nashville, you know, threatening the chickens to lay eggs, you know, so we would have something to eat, you know, that kind of, I mean, we, uh, you know,

01:19:05.740 - 01:19:21.919

everything was gone, there was nothing, you know, we had the, the colonel, his pickup truck. So we were kind of, you know, wondering what in the world to do and, um, the phone rings, of course, the phone and the electricity were on, by the way, it

01:19:21.930 - 01:19:43.529

had running water and flushing toilets and all that. But, uh, uh, Cheatham calls and Cheatham is opening a club in Austin called U Cream Ice Cream. And he wants towns to come down and playing. So he's got one plane ticket for towns and I go, you

01:19:43.540 - 01:19:56.350

know, I, I see what's going on and I grabbed that photo to cheat him. I'm gonna wring your neck. You're the one that got me on this tour. You know, you, you go down there and buy me a ticket. So he coughed up a ticket. So

01:19:56.359 - 01:20:10.339

towns that I flew in and it was kind of like the, the old days, you know, what else are we gonna do, man? We gotta get on the road and we got to find some gigs. So towns had made connections in, you know, like the west

01:20:10.350 - 01:20:28.640

coast. I think the first one we did was like, uh uh the van, he had an offer for the Vancouver Folk Festival and he said, yeah, let's do that one. And then call Great American Music Hall in mccabe's um in San Francisco and Santa Monica. So

01:20:28.649 - 01:20:46.799

we booked that and some other gigs kind of fell into place and everything. So we started touring again and um you know what, once again to kind of, you know, reiterate town's having game plans and, you know, having ideas of what he wanted to do. Um

01:20:47.080 - 01:21:05.020

He wanted to put a band together and make a record, you know, let's do it, you know, if we have to do it ourselves, we're gonna do it, but that's gonna be the plan. So we eventually added uh David Waddell, Leland Waddell on bass and drums

01:21:05.029 - 01:21:25.330

and Donny Silverman on flute and saxophone. Donny was a friend of my wife, Pat Mears who come down from Boston to play on her record, which I had produced, which never got completed. But that's a whole another story. Um, so a a actually, and it, and

01:21:25.339 - 01:21:42.790

it was crazy. It was the end of my particular, you know, involvement in mind altering substances and, you know, of course, towns, you know, he kept, you know, he, he did his gigs but his alcoholism, you know, uh we all know, is a progressive disease and

01:21:43.040 - 01:22:00.250

it was becoming more and more bothersome and the, the band set up was pretty crazy. I'll, I'll put it that way. There was a lot of drinking going on. Um, but we played some, uh, some pretty good. We did this TV show and I can't for

01:22:00.259 - 01:22:15.000

the life of me remember it's out there on youtube and there's a cut of us doing, uh, if I needed you and it sounds pretty good. I mean, I was really surprised at how in the world, you know, we were even conscious when we did this

01:22:15.009 - 01:22:29.459

thing. But, uh, you know, I guess through it all, you know, you kind of revert to what really means something to you. And we were all playing pretty good. But, um, David Leland had other things anyway. So, uh, but Donny stayed with the band. So we

01:22:29.470 - 01:22:53.330

toured as, uh, that trio and, uh, Harold Eggers, Kevin Edgers little brother had set up a gig for us in Nashville and we went and played that gig and Jack Clement came out and Jack Clement had, he'd always been cognizant of the criticisms of production on

01:22:53.339 - 01:23:11.629

the albums. Um So he heard that gig and then he phoned Jeanine and Janine called caught up with us on the road said, hey, Jack wants to record you guys. Um you know, he'll put up the studio time and um you know, buy the tape and

01:23:12.040 - 01:23:27.850

all that kind of thing. And uh so we went back to that, we did that, that one and that would be at my window and that was done in Jack's studio and, you know, the upstairs the attic studio at Mont with Jim Rooney engineering. And, um,

01:23:29.330 - 01:23:45.540

it was done, uh, it was all done live, you know, Jack, I, I wish I remembered them all and I think my wife has a list of, of, uh, you know, the, the copy that Jack gave us about, you know, the rules for recording. The two

01:23:45.549 - 01:24:00.689

that I remember are no headphones and remember it only takes three minutes to cut a hit record. So that was his philosophy. He wanted to take our, our sound, our little trio sound and just add a bass and drums and just, you know, sit around in

01:24:00.700 - 01:24:14.399

a circle and play them. We ended up doing a little production on it. You know, I kind of would leave some black spots here and there so I can kind of overdub some things and, you know, we had like Mar o'connor and Mickey Raphael and harmonica

01:24:14.410 - 01:24:28.290

that came in and, you know, uh, Chuck Cochran on piano, Roy Huskey Junior played the upright bass and Kenny Malone, uh, did the drums and it was a neat little record, you know, a lot of, um, you know, I think some of the stuff that he

01:24:28.299 - 01:24:45.120

did earlier, you know, despite the production, you know, there's some beautiful stuff on those albums. Our Mother of the Mountain, you know, the Kitchen album, the late Great Towns Vanzant, you know, there's some definitely definitive cuts on all of those records. But I think take it

01:24:45.129 - 01:25:00.419

as a whole, a lot of critics uh prefer that one because it's clean and unadorned. Um I don't think Towns was playing as good or singing as good as he was in his heyday, you know, his finger picking and kind of fallen off a little bit

01:25:00.430 - 01:25:16.509

and, but he was still there. I mean, he was definitely, you know, wanting to make a good record and I think it came out pretty good and then you continue to stay on with him for a number of years. Yeah. So, um that record would have

01:25:16.520 - 01:25:38.310

been done about 86 and then Towns moved back to Nashville in 89. They're about and that kind of ended it, you know, we played a couple of gigs here and there. I think that one at the uh the chemo theater we kind of met there to

01:25:38.319 - 01:25:58.180

do that one. he had a period of sobriety, um, and Jeanine actually called me and asked if I wanted to accompany him to New Zealand for a couple of weeks. He was doing some gigs down there and, um, I don't think it was town's idea. Um,

01:25:58.490 - 01:26:13.890

but that, that was the last tour that I ever did when he was in New Zealand. But it was good, you know, I mean, we had fun tells us, you know, I mean, he was bipolar and, uh, when he wasn't drinking, you know, I think that,

01:26:13.899 - 01:26:28.660

you know, that, that's a lot of why people that drink is because they, you know, they, like, they don't like the way they feel and the, you know, the depressed parts, but he was still, you know, real pleasant with all the, the people and the gigs

01:26:28.669 - 01:26:45.629

were, were good, you know, they might not have had the kind of the energy, um, but they were good and clean and professional. I'll put it that way. And so after touring with town so long, why did you decide to stop touring with him and, and

01:26:45.870 - 01:27:06.649

basically kind of leave that completely. Leave music. But it stepped into a different, well, it wasn't my decision to, to leave towns. Um, he moved to Nashville and in my view, you know, I was still thinking, you know, the understanding was that, you know, he would

01:27:06.660 - 01:27:21.580

live there. I would live in Austin but we just meet up to begin the tours. And, um, I had actually, you know, and I've been doing all, all the booking, I booked all those tours. I had all the contacts, all the numbers, you know, and I

01:27:21.589 - 01:27:40.209

don't want to sound, you know, bitter or anything like that. But, you know, I, I personally don't think that it was very cool that I turned all of that stuff over to a booking agent in Nashville who, you know, name doesn't really matter. Um But he

01:27:40.220 - 01:27:55.919

just started booking town solo and towns didn't, you know, he, he never stepped in and did anything, you know, never did come to me and explain. Well, look, just logistically Mick, you know, we never had to talk. It just all of a sudden, you know, towns

01:27:55.930 - 01:28:15.339

is playing all these gigs without me. So, um you know, I was, I was disappointed but we, we, we remained friends, you know, um I ended up running into him when I was a couple playing guitar for Pat, my ex-wife in Europe. And um I sat

01:28:15.350 - 01:28:31.890

in for about four or five songs at the Milky Way in Amsterdam. And that was actually the last time I ever played with him. So it wasn't really my choice. But, you know, so there I am in Austin and uh Pat and I had been married

01:28:31.899 - 01:28:53.729

since the early eighties and we were in the process of separating and divorcing. Pat. Had a record deal in Holland. And we had a five year old son and I didn't have anything going. I said, Pat, you gotta, you gotta go do that. I'll take, I'll

01:28:53.740 - 01:29:16.930

take care of John. So, um, you know, I actually worked as an auto mechanic for a while and, um, you know, kind of, you know, doing the dad thing and I heard from a friend of mine, this old friend of mine that you can substitute at

01:29:16.939 - 01:29:35.629

this school district if you have 12 hours of college credit. It was actually the, the Elgin school district and I, I kind of lived out in that direction and I said, well, how coincidental is that I managed to secure 12 hours at the University of Texas

01:29:35.640 - 01:29:53.790

back in the fall of 1969. Right? I actually passed and got credit for it. So, um I started to just to kind of, you know, supplement my income. I was still trying to get gigs. II, I did AAA record which was got me some gigs, but,

01:29:53.799 - 01:30:10.669

you know, I couldn't sell it. I'll put it that way. Right. Um And, you know, I was still trying to keep, you know, Mickey White Alive and the Austin music scene was really changing, you know, becoming much more competitive and businesslike. And, you know, I think

01:30:10.680 - 01:30:29.299

the moment that I knew that it was over with was when Griff Bloomberg at the Cactus Cafe hired me like for a whisky dike you know, Mickey White at the Cactus Cafe. And one person showed up, I mean, and that one person, she was really nice

01:30:29.310 - 01:30:48.640

and she sat there and I played my set, you know, but I think I knew then that, you know, I, I just can't start over, you know, I, I can't, I've got a son to raise and, um, but right about that time, Pat's guitar player, she

01:30:48.649 - 01:31:06.209

had her second record come, or her first record had come out and she had a tour in Europe and she needed a guitar player. Well, you know, we parted amicably, you know, I mean, we're still best friends and, um, I think that, you know, I'm not

01:31:06.220 - 01:31:21.310

much of an electric guitar player. Uh, certainly not my forte, but I think she needed someone that, you know, she knew and could rely on and not have to mess with, you know, I mean, running bands, it, it's, it's tough, you know, I mean, um, so

01:31:21.319 - 01:31:41.060

I, I said, sure, you know, and, um, the gigs went, ok, you know, my guitar playing, you know, my electric guitar playing was not received very favorably. I'll put it that way. Um, but the gigs were great. But what was cool about it is, you know,

01:31:41.069 - 01:32:02.240

just, I lived in Europe for six weeks, Jack. Uh, you know, our son went and lived with my mom down on the, the beach in Oliver, um, for that time and it was kind of win in Rome situation. Um, there was a, an apartment that the

01:32:02.250 - 01:32:20.240

Watchman ads had an empty apartment. So I had my own place to stay and, um, we'd have, you know, four or five days off, you know, and I get to kick around in the coffee shops and kind of, you know, II, I went to London, like,

01:32:20.250 - 01:32:37.080

hopped on the train and took the ferry across from the Hook of Holland, uh, to England and spent like a few days London went to Abbey Road. You know, it just, you know, I'd always been interested in history anyway. You know, I read history just, you

01:32:37.089 - 01:32:50.500

know, I was good at it in high school and, you know, I'd always kind of read historical novels, you know, go vital and, you know, and, you know, it just kind of piqued my interest. Well, you know, I, I need to, you know, kind of, um,

01:32:50.509 - 01:33:09.350

you know, catch up on there. There's some gaps in my knowledge about how Europe developed, you know, into nation states and things like that. So, when I got back to Austin, I started auditing some classes and I was seven and I didn't want to be a

01:33:09.359 - 01:33:28.169

mechanic anymore. And I figured, you know, I think I'll just, you know, kill two birds with one stone, go back to school, study history, get a teaching certificate and be a teacher. It just all kind of, you know, fell into place and, um, I guess kind

01:33:28.180 - 01:33:46.080

of the, you know, the confirmation on that is the one school that I subbed at, um, or, you know, a sub, but one school that I did sub at was like the one I wanted to teach at and I got my application into them and they

01:33:46.089 - 01:34:06.689

were the first ones to call, you know, Westwood High School, you know, just kind of this premier school in the, you know, the Austin suburbs. And, um, so I took the job and taught up until, uh, may 31st a couple of weeks ago and completed 22

01:34:06.700 - 01:34:30.200

years as, uh, social studies teacher. So, how with this kind of big change in life, career change, how did you kind of balance the being the teacher about having this backstory of being a touring musician and, well, I shared it with him. Yeah, I would, uh,

01:34:30.859 - 01:34:46.069

you know, when I taught us history, um, I did several singing lessons. One, like when we studied the old West, I'd do some, you know, old western ballads and, you know, that kind of thing. When we did the depression, I would do some woody guthrie kind

01:34:46.080 - 01:35:00.779

of stuff. Um, when we did the sixties, I would do, you know, stuff that I was actually playing in the sixties, right? Some Donovan and Dylan and, you know, things like that. So I, and, and, you know, I shared it with them. I would, you know,

01:35:00.790 - 01:35:14.509

the kids would ask me to do like benefits for the literary magazine, you know. So I played, you know, several gigs, you know, in the student center. So I kind of, uh, in fact, there was just right before I left there. Uh, one of these kids

01:35:14.520 - 01:35:31.410

did a, uh, kind of a, a graphic cartoon of Westwood High school with all the, you know, different caricatures of the teachers and right in the middle is me with my guitar on, that was kind of my identity at, at Westwood, you know, I was kind

01:35:31.419 - 01:35:47.120

of the guitar playing teacher. So, yeah, they knew it. Uh, you know, I would bring in when I ended up teaching geography. I, I figured out that, you know, there's this, uh, you know, concept of, you know, cultural convergence into fusion. So I would do less,

01:35:47.129 - 01:36:00.970

you know, I play a blues song and a country song for him and explain how that, you know, kind of fused into rock and roll and, you know, so, you know, they, they got a little bit of that. So, since your teaching career has come to

01:36:00.979 - 01:36:15.850

an end, what do you have going on next? What do you, what are your plans? Well, I have a job at Pebble Beach golf course at the end of the end of August. Um, I'm, I'm actually working on a, so a lot of this, you know,

01:36:15.859 - 01:36:32.680

a lot of the things that I've talked about with you today are gonna be kind of in there and elaborated somewhat. And, um, and I, one of my colleagues at Westwood is a bass player and he knows my stuff. So when gigs pop up, you know,

01:36:32.689 - 01:36:52.490

I do have and I have a drummer that I work with. So I'm still kind of in, you know, I don't pick up the phone, but if the phone rings, I'll answer it. I'm kind of in that mode right now. If the opportunity arises, I still,

01:36:52.899 - 01:37:07.379

you know, love playing and performing and, you know, I doubt that I would. Um, you know, I, I've talked about, uh, there's a friend of mine that has a home studio and if I were to do any kind of recording, I would probably just get my

01:37:07.390 - 01:37:22.819

bass player, my drummer in and set everything up and play 20 songs and pick the best 12 stamp it out as a CD. You know, I've, I've thought about doing that. But, right, as far as, you know, anything related to the music is just the main,

01:37:23.759 - 01:37:40.569

the main thing is the memoir and I, I really, you know, enjoyed working on that. It's, it's the first time in a long time where I've had stuff that has to be done, you know, back in the, in the days as a musician, you know, I

01:37:40.580 - 01:37:52.629

mean, you had, you had to, you had to do this, you had to play the, you know, develop that lick, you had to write this song, you had to get this done, you had to play that gig and, um, you know, with the memoir in, in

01:37:52.640 - 01:38:11.390

telling my story and kind of, you know, trying to place it in perspective of one of the, you know, dramatic periods of change in American society. You know, I've just had, you know, all these things that are just kind of urging to get down, you know,

01:38:11.399 - 01:38:24.790

so that's been, you know, I really, most of the stuff that I write is already written by the time I sit down at the uh is the word processor. You know, it's already kind of formulated and it's really kind of fun to just sit down and

01:38:24.799 - 01:38:39.660

kind of bang it out and, you know, I don't know if anything will come of it. But for me, it's, it's the process and it's being engaged in that creative process again. And that's kind of, you know, probably the, the most dominant thing that I'm working

01:38:39.669 - 01:38:55.169

on right now. I wanna thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for doing this. This is great. You know, I just love, you know, the, the whole concept of what you're doing and, you know, it, it is important and significant and there's, you know,

01:38:55.180 - 01:39:05.890

a lot of, you know, I know from our discussions that uh you know, you've talked to all the right people, you know, you're getting it. So it's very cool. So, thank you