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So today is April 9th 2019, and my name is Chelsey Wen. Uh my name is Mai Ton. And we're here interviewing Matt Manalo. So just to start off, can you tell us about where you were

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born and a little bit about what it was like growing up there. Um I was born in Manila in the Philippines. Um growing up for me um was sort of I guess 'cause— because my family came from like a middle class family so

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um we weren't really struggling or anything like that um but it almost like I was living in between the city and kind of like

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the suburbs because I went to school in the city and then I lived in the suburbs so we were always commuting for, you know, long distances everyday . Um... um I

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wasn't—I didn't kind—I—I really didn't get a lot of uh culture shock in terms of like moving here in the US because um, you know, the Philippines was colonized by the US , so there was a lot of like Western influence already there um so it wasn't like—it was

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a lot more of things that I didn't learn there that kinda like shocked me when I got here. Um it was simple it was—I was I was uh I was very happy-go-lucky I

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guess, growing up . Um yeah I really just had to worry about uh go to school and make my parents happy with my, you know, grades and all that. Yeah, yeah, you know, uh

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it was a lot easier, I believe, you know, growing up with, you know, same, you know, Filipino friends and being, in the same religion, which was, you know, being Catholic, yeah. So my friends and I

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always shared like a lot of common things together, you know , we all went to private schools and um, yeah. Um what did you mean by like, being shocked by what you didn't learn in the Philippines? Um well when I got here I was already

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19 So it was a lot of things that a lot of people would probably think that was kind of like easy or or you know like a normal thing . I didn't know how to cook or to you know even use a rice

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cooker {MT laughs um you know even like a, the clothes washer or dryer or anything like that. Um simply because we had, you know, people doing it for us , so I—it was frustrating for me

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kind of like not knowing that or or that I wasn't prepared for that, so... What like—what caused your—you and your family to like immigrate to America? Um we—growing up we never really had a plan like

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it was never mentioned by my parents that we were like, "Hey maybe like in 20 years we're going to move to the states." Um you know my dad was, was like a VP for for an electrical company there.

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My mom was a teacher um and they've been working for the same company for more than 10 years , um it all started with my grandpa being diagnosed with cancer.

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Um my parents came here for a vacation and um you know to see him and take care of him, and then um according to my mom, the story goes that my aunt told her to— that there was like a s—shortage of teachers here in

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he—here in Houston, so she was like "hey just, you know, maybe just try applying for a position even if you're just here as a tourist." Um so she applied um and then

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they went home and then we—we were just living a normal life, whatever, like nothing, um and and she got a call that she got accepted, so after that knowledge that she got accepted um everything just

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happened so fast, you know, like um so I was—I was told that we were going to like move like maybe in two years or something like that or in—in a year, started slacking off in college uh just started partying

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whatever. Um yeah because it like, there wasn't any um point in kinda like doing better I guess um yeah but it was like, it happened so fast um and

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it only hit me when I—when I al— already came here. So like when you were growing up in the Philippines like how did you, did you have any like kinda like preconceptions of what America would be like or aspirations to go there or anything

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like that. Um... I was scared, just because like, I know that—because I was already 19 and, you know, like I already had my friends there um I was like in a—I was dating somebody Um

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um I always thought that the US was almost kinda like a perfect place to be. You know , growing up having like, like a colonial mentality that the West has always been like the greener

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pastures and stuff like that. Um yeah that's what I thought um America was like—green lawns and um you know uh everybody was driving their own cars and um credit card

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mentality, uh um basically like consumerism and you can just get whatever you wanted as long as you worked hard for it. That's—that was like my idea and to a certain point it's still the same expect like I'm um like

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learning about the history and and and about like you know colonialism and and and racism and all that then as for like—the golden blanket has been taken off and it's just like— everything unravels and, and yeah

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um it—it's it's not surprising but it's um it's almost like why am I here kind of thing , you know. So like had you not come to—ha—if your mom hadn't applied to um

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the job he—the teaching job here, wha—what were your original plans back in the Philippines like what were you trying to do in, aspirations? Um to be honest

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um so I graduated in high school—I was 16 when I graduated so I—I just, as soon as I graduated I went to college and I didn't know what I was going to take but for the sake of kind of like being on the safe side , like making my parents happy

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and earning a lot of money, I was like going for computer engineering , so... if I didn't leave I probably would be, you know, like a computer engineer um I don't know I probably wouldn't

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be even, be painting , you know, like what I'm doing right now. Um cause like in the Philippines, if you're an artist, you know , it—it's it's sort of—if

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you're an artist from a poor family, then you're going to be poor for the rest of your life, but if you're an artist coming from like a wealthy family, then you a—automatically get like your network and whatnot, but I mean it's kinda the same

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here I—I—I can imagine that it would be harder there. I see, it's a lot more stratified over there. I see. So when did you start learning how to paint, or start painting in general? Um well I don't know I—I guess I would say I—when

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I was a kid. Um my parents would alway just get us crayons, watercolor, pastels and I remember um my dad, since he worked at an office, he would take home like stacks and stacks of just, office paper,

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the ones that had like holes in the side 'cause the printers were, you know, like really old school, and that's where, we would draw on them and it kinda, it kinda worked as like a sketchbook almost, so uh and then my parents

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like included my brother and I, my older brother and I like in art competitions and yeah I never won anything but it was something I was always interested in and , and then you know like comic books and cartoons was like a huge

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influence on me, growing up, um but it wasn't until 2006 that I really um like told myself that this is what I really

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wanted to do. Um, you know, because like when I got here in 2004, I was going through like a really dark phase and I—I well—I didn't have like the right mind to decide on like "hey like what do I do, do I continue computer engineering or do I take up something new,"

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since I'm like, you know, like "hey, new place new person here it is" you know, um so I listened to my parents, my aunts, you know, who is a nurse, and I was like, ok let me go into the medical field and try, you

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know, maybe it's for me, and that didn't work out, and I felt bad because my parents were paying for, for my college, um so I had like a sit down talk with them, and I told them, "mom, dad, I can't do this

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anymore, you know, I—I—I don't want to waste your money anymore, uh 'cause no matter what I did, you know, like I was staying up late, I was go—ah, you know, I was going on to like study groups at Starbucks and whatnot, and

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I was still failing and that's when I realized like I'm doing something that I really don't want to do, and I can't imagine myself working at a hospital till like what, like I'm 65 maybe?

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So, yeah I—I just told my parents like I want to do art, and my, my mom who... who was the one asking a lot of questions. She was scared because I was gonna, I was gonna

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pursue art, she was like "what are you gonna do after graduating and all that?" and I just told her like, " hey, I'm gonna teach," and that was kind of like, I don't know, something to assure her , so she—she won't be scared but I've

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never taught any class since I graduated I mean I've worked at, you know, galleries and I worked on museums um, you know, there are other jobs for artists out there, other than teaching, so, yeah you know and now that I'm working for

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myself and my mom hasn't really asked anything about it. How did—how did your parents like first take it when you just, when you sat down and told them that you wanted to become an artist? Well they were, you know, typical Asian parents I guess.

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They were scared 'cause my, my parents were really wanted to be assured that I was gonna, not fail. Um and I—I just told them like it's something I'm really passionate about um and I always believe that

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if you're passionate about something then the chances of failing is lower than something being, you know, if I was a nurse somebody probably would have died on my care you know, and and that scares me . Like putting somebody's life like you know to your—in

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your responsibility, you know, I don't think I can take that like mentally and emotionally, probably. So they eventually came around to it? They were, I mean they were s—they were constantly

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questioning um maybe not until like five years ago or something like that um but once they started seeing that I've been showing um I've got in some collectors

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then they kind of like , okay, maybe he's not going to fail. He's got some credit But then it's funny because you know I have siblings, you know, my brother works at a bank, my

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younger brother's a nurse, and my sister's uh studying to be a doctor but, but she's, you know, doing like bio—bio research so whenever um like careers come up, they always say like,

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"oh, it's okay you can, you can be the only artist in the—in the family." You know um like it's, that um that we only get to get like one artist in the family or something.

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It was kind of like, I don't know demeaning, but then at the same time I'm like, yeah like I don't want to be competing with my siblings , you know, like having a show here, and uh you know, but yeah. So how did you like start getting into, into like the art world?

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Um well when I started taking classes first, um but then I didn't know what to really focus on , so I was taking all of the art classes that they offered uh I was taking photography, sculpture,

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drawing, printmaking, um ceramics, so I know like how to do stuff , like within like different practices but then um um... I started

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leaning towards photography and painting more because it was like—like for me painting was it was like a practical thing, um, you know I wasn't making a lot of money, but then um I was able to like get materials so I can just paint on stuff

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easier compared to like the sculpture where you either you get like you have to buy like a big block of wood or or or plaster or something like—which was expensive. And then I was kind of like doing

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photography on the side you know like shooting weddings and the and and all that stuff but I couldn't, it came to a point where I couldn't afford like catching up with like the latest stuff. So then, it

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narrowed down really to like painting and drawing um and then so I started making my own paintings and I was still in school, I felt like I didn't need to ask permission like because like I think there's a mentality

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where a lot of people think that you need to graduate first before you go out there, or something like that, but I was already kind of like, joining like open calls and you know getting kind of

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like my name out there and then I kinda got involved with with graffiti as well um The Houston graffiti scene? Yeah, yeah. Um I was like part of a crew and all that.

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I mean I did dance but I didn't do that part, um but yeah we were doing that for a while, and then um it was at one point where um we got pulled over by cops so that kind of like opened my eyes I

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was like this is something I don't want to be doing, you know, I don't want to get in trouble for um, I mean it was cool it was fun, you know, it’s, thrill of it, but for like the career that I wanted to achieve I

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felt like it wasn't Yeah it wasn't worth the trouble, um so yeah so my goal was always to kind of get out there um show my work um and it still is my goal, you know, to be

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able to be shown in museums and not—and whatnot um um so yeah—Oh uh uh I started working for, for art institutions as well uh I was like, I was like the studio manager for, for Houston Community College,

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so I got to meet like a lot of artists through there. Te—they were teaching and then I got to meet, you know, some students who would just hang out there who were really interested in art, so you know I

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get—I became like really close friends with them. Um and then through my professors, you know, I got like some art advice and what not, on top of just being in the classes. And then uh I

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started um working for this artist as well um I was uh I was doing you know like designer paintings I guess on the side, and getting paid for it.

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So it kind of like taught me how to like do landscapes or portraits or whatnot, so like when I, when I was at U of H, a lot of my professors were like "Oh, he can paint already" you know kind

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of like um so I was able to get into the program easily uh and then yeah, I just, was just constantly showing, constantly going to art shows, you know, trying to support my friends and and

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then even like supporting my professors and and then, you know, now they, they come to my shows and whatnot, so now it kind of like went full circle with them. Mhm. Um before we go—we get into like your more professional

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work can you describe more about the, the Houston graffiti scene? I- Yeah I've never heard about this before. Yeah I've never heard anything about it but it seems really interesting.

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Well I wasn't, um it was really interesting like when I was part of it because um it was in between the times where it was purely w- just on the walls, and

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then, and then when that movie um about Banksy came out um Exit Through the Gift Shop came out, so that's when, when graffiti kind of like started taking off more into mainstream , and

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then getting more into like galleries , and then there was like a show in LA that um I forgot the title of it, but then a famous curator, like K- like graffiti into white spaces or like the white cube.

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And so, a lot of like the graffiti artists that I know in Houston started you know showing up in galleries and uh and it was weird because there were like purists , against, you know, so

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they're like, "graffiti should just stay on the streets, you know, be accessible to like the masses" which is what it originally is for, compared to like the higher upscale kind of snooty audience, so um

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yeah I mean and then um there was also a lot of uh people who were doing weed pasting um I mean d-, it wasn't a huge scene, but then it was,

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it was there, it was like a grounded scene where like, you know, old school, graffiti artists are here in Houston. Um Was there like kind of like a message that everyone was trying to like push out or like, you know,

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what kind of demographics would be involved in like the group, the graffiti scene in Houston. In Houston? It was mostly, I was mostly surrounded by Hispanic or Latino um gr—graffiti artists, but then the goal really was—there

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wasn't like, just a main message, the main message of graffiti was to get your name out there. you know like who had the—the biggest tag out there or , or the biggest you know throwup or or who was able to like

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get on top of like a bridge and like put their name on there, so it was about getting known for you know, so it was more like , promoting yourself, it—there wasn't really like anybody doing kind of

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like political messages like Banks—like Carl Banksy was doing then. But then it, yeah, ever—ever since that movie came out, other people like started jumping into you know being political, activism and all that.

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But I felt like it was always like an activism as well, towards high art , and you know, like the whole structure of what art should be and what it shouldn't be and—

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or where it should be shown and what not, so I guess that's what it is. Yeah, I feel like, I feel like Houston graffiti scene has kind of like expanded a lot in recent years cause—especially with the, the murals and stuff like that.

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Do you feel like the graffiti scene is connected to that in a in a certain sense or? Yeah, yeah a lot of my friends who, who did graffiti , are doing a lot of murals right

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now um you know I even went to school with some of them um and I'm all for it because you know, when you're an artist, you gotta hustle you gotta you know make a living and and

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that's one, one of the ways where especially the people who have like, almost perfected their craft, with, with the spray paint um yeah i mean it's like you get like a huge wall , you could be paid you know like five figures or something like that,

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so yeah I'm all for everybody you know getting them—their money. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool.

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Um but I guess now we can move on to your actual art style So like um how did you start like solidifying like what your art style is? Um well I was I was like well it all kind of started when I

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was a junior uh at art school , you know, I didn't have money, for supplies um and I was, yeah I was—I was like struggling , um and there was a spot at the school

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where people would, would just um discard you know materials and—not not like a trash bin but it was just a spot where people would just like, you know, like put extra wood or whatnot and—and I was always

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like on the lookout there just grabbing whatever I could, I think that I could make into or I could use you know for painting , especially that I was majoring in painting so that's what I had to do. So I was like painting on canvas that

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had already paint on them or or or you know it had like some stains on them and people didn't want them, or or wood that that was like a table top for something, um and

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I had like a lot of paper just from um... you know just from being an art student and that was worth—also being like the studio manager um so I was

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already kind of collecting materials that some students would just leave when they're done with their semester and all that, and I would take them home. So I was using a lot of different materials and and that was like one of the things that made me stand out

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from my classmates in junior, in the junior block um uh and then I started dabbling with paint even more, um but then I—I realized that

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that my strength was really into putting things together , um because like when I was growing up also um I went to like a technical school so it was like we had like a technical curriculum in in

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academic so we were doing like shopwork, metalwork, woodwork, um so I was already using a lot of, you know, I used tools and my hands a lot, so I figured it was something that I was, I felt natural with and something that I really enjoyed doing.

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So now as part of my practice um I—I like put out on social media saying like hey if you guys like have things um that sort of have a meaning to you um but you don't want to trash

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then you can just give them to me. So a lot of like my friends have been giving me stuff, so I'm kind of like a hoarder almost um and then like my wife and I love thrifting a lot so I, you know, when I

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see something that I could use and I buy it, but then most of the stuff that I get I also use . It's like, different things you know like porcupine quills um dried flowers you know,

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and I keep them because like I never know like like hey when I could use it, um which is kind of like a problem uh um and and the whole idea behind that is that um

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having like sense of community to build something so in a way, I'm reaching out to people and then that whole interaction of like giving and sharing um you know builds the relationship e—even more, and then when

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they see that "Hey, I gave you that," you know "that fabric" or something like that and they always get excited whenever they see it , in the finished painting um and it's also kind of like

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um having people's memories kind of like immigrate into my own memories, so in a way I'm, it becomes personal to me , and then it relates to like my whole immigrant story um

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yeah, I mean that's my practice so, to sum it up. So what's like the most like interesting piece that you've m—incorporated into your art so far? Um the most interesting piece that I've incorporated in my art so far, I would

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say is um because I still keep in touch with my former boss um who is also an artist, um she, one day she just called me and, "hey, I have some fabric for you." I was like "Oh okay cool, let's go

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meet up and you know let me get them off of your hands and" —and so she brought them out and I was like hey this looks kind of familiar so the, so it's a bunch of um vintage

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uh pineapple fiber uh textile from the Philippines, but then she's white, so I was like How did you get this? So the story is um her mom was a

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nurse , and and she was sent off the the Philippines like during the war, and and she collected these items, and you know she felt like I was like the perfect person to give them to, uh

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but then it was kind of weird because she was also telling me that she had read some letters uh from her mother and it had like a lot of like racist remarks , so so it's like accepting a gift from somebody who was

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like racist almost, so I, so I had to like be at peace with that , and and do something about it, it was more of like just some, something that um I felt like I had to deal with , but then in my

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own way, so I was like, yes this is you know from the Philippines , made by a Filipino person, and but then it was acquired by somebody so, I just had to come at peace that she

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gave them back to me almost, it's almost like reparations I guess um so it was like a peace offering by, by my old boss. I see, so do you think like the history of it, informs the art piece?

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Um not so much anymore because because I—I like came at peace with it , so now I'm just using it for more of like my message and my aesthetic, rather than like having all that um

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heaviness to uh, of the material, including, you know, cause I feel like I don't want to put out anything negative out there so. Um so how much like of your own Filipino identity informs your art?

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Uh a lot of it because um I was reading this interview by, by another artist who's Filipino and he said that—I forget his name, but he was saying like, If you make work, and you're Filipino, then you're

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making Filipino art. Um because a lot of people might think that, oh hey he's not painting farmlands or water buffaloes or or huts or something like that then then it's

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not Filipino art , um which I kind of understand, and which is why like one of the, one of the goals in my work is to like, hey there are Filipino artists who make contemporary work, who who kind

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of are aware of, you know, contemporary art history, and all that. Um yeah so I would say—also because I talk about identity a lot, and and um like my journey

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as an immigrant, a Filipino immigrant here in the US. so yeah. So how do you like incorporate your Filipino identity into your art like, like how does it inform your art, like yeah.

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Um... like for the simplest explanations I guess, I—I I use a lot of like raw materials um which most especially um raw

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canvas and I always kind of like compare that color to like uh like my skin color, you know, brown. Um so in that, you know, that talks about um kind of like my identity, and and

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um there were times when I would paint over it with like a black, or a wash of white and most recently like blue, um so I wanted to talk about like colonialism, colorism, um and

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then the fact that for us Asians being an im—an immigrant it's not like a physical wall or mountains that we have to cross, we actually have to cross like the ocean and the sky, that's the reason why I started

00:36:18.050 - 00:36:37.700

using blue in my work um and then I always start off a piece by um by drawing a grid on the surface and by—with that um I'm

00:36:40.130 - 00:36:59.410

talking about uh topography, geography location and also um what's—what is it called, the science of making maps cartography, there you go. Um so yeah,

00:37:02.110 - 00:37:24.980

but yeah and then—and then um using materials that are um, you know, like the pineapple fiber and all that um, yeah, so with materials, I get to talk about my identity. yeah. Um when did you—had you always known about

00:37:25.180 - 00:37:39.440

like the history of like colonialism in the Philippines and try to push that message or did you have to like learn about that, actively learn about that, all of that? Um when I was in the Philippines, I—I really

00:37:40.010 - 00:38:02.640

didn't care at all about the history, um I just know, well we were raised thinking that that the US were, you know, the, the heroes , um but then later on I'm learning that there was a Philippine-American

00:38:03.270 - 00:38:19.090

war that happened where, you know, they had to slaughter a lot of Filipinos and that we were used to um help fight against Spanish, because you know we were like conditioned to think that hey we're the good guys, but then

00:38:19.090 - 00:38:33.660

at the same time—because the wh—the whole Philippine-American war was erased from history, like they—they didn't teach the um, growing up, and then also having like a uh colonial mentality and

00:38:33.940 - 00:38:55.650

thinking you know like anything from the US is like the best thing, um um yeah it was—it wasn't until here that I got more interested into the history um to a point where I'm learning more about

00:38:57.230 - 00:39:17.050

the Philippines before it was even colonized by Spain . So a lot of um precolonial history, precolonial knowledges um you know, religion um even the text um alphabet and all that.

00:39:17.090 - 00:39:30.740

I see. Chelsey do you have anything? Um I think earlier you mentioned you met your wife in art school? Yeah Does she still do art as well?

00:39:31.570 - 00:39:48.740

She does art, um here and there um you know mostly like a lot of craft work. She sews, um but yeah we met in art school, um we were classmates but then we

00:39:48.740 - 00:40:08.420

never talked during that class, yeah it wasn't after um it was after that class, because I was showing and so I kept inviting her to my art shows and she never went until that one time that she came and

00:40:08.420 - 00:40:24.240

then we started talking and eventually dating and then getting married. Um do you think that she ever influences your work? Yeah, yeah she does, um, you know,

00:40:24.240 - 00:40:41.390

because she's also an immigrant herself. Um she's from Mexico, so it talks—like, we're always kind of like comparing and contrasting Filipino and Mexican

00:40:41.390 - 00:40:57.640

culture at the same time um and then you know the whole history about the Acapulco Manila galleon trade as well, that happened like we have, there's like Filipino tamales that I don't even know about

00:41:01.330 - 00:41:17.490

you know, and there's like Mexican adobo which is like completely different from like ours, um yeah and then like the things that we talk about all the time you know um border, immigration uh racism

00:41:17.630 - 00:41:31.780

and all that, racial inequalities, so yeah. Her, you know, being married to me, being around me, um yeah she contributes a lot to my practice as well.

00:41:36.080 - 00:41:51.790

Well I mean, also she helps me sometimes because she sews, I—I like I don't want to touch her sewing machine. If I have to sew something I sew it by hand, um but yeah there was a—there was one time I was doing a large

00:41:52.150 - 00:42:09.720

painting that was gonna be for the Dallas contemporary art fair, so she was helping me like make my canvas boxes, so she was sewing those. So yeah, so she helps me when she can. Mhm. Does, does religion inform

00:42:09.720 - 00:42:28.740

your art in any sense or like like ideology like Daoism for example or something like that?

00:42:28.740 - 00:42:37.900

Uh no not really, not really. Why do you ask? Oh cause you mentioned the Daoist contemporary art fair... Oh Dallas Dallas I meant Dallas. Oh Dallas I heard Daoist. I was like, "interesting..."

00:42:38.880 - 00:42:57.760

Yeah Dallas, yeah um well in terms of, you know, I was born and raised, oh I was raised Catholic so uh no, no I don't really include that, cause to me, 'cause my wife is Catholic as

00:42:57.760 - 00:43:17.350

well, and we practice and it’s just something that we keep to ourselves, like, we don’t knock on people’s doors and, like, “Hey, come with us,” kind of thing . Do you feel like your-your race has, like, affected how, uh,

00:43:18.800 - 00:43:34.390

affected your career in any sense? Like, your success in your career, or... Um, I feel like it could be. Um… and it’s one of the

00:43:34.390 - 00:43:45.720

reasons why, like, I’m trying to push Filipino work further out. Because, like, when people think of Asian art, they always think of, like, East Asian art, you know?

00:43:46.710 - 00:44:03.010

Um, Chinese, Korean, Japanese art are like well represented in the art world. Um, and, and recently I went – I-I attended like a Brown artist retreat, and so – because we

00:44:03.060 - 00:44:18.200

think, like, South… South Asians and Southeast Asians, we claim to be Brown, you know? Um, sSo, I went there, and it was full, you know, it was mostly Hispanic and Latino

00:44:18.260 - 00:44:33.080

artists. So, I was saying, like, “Hey, we’re Brown too, so where are we part – you know, what part of the conversation are we in?” So, I was – II was – it was just me and another artist who

00:44:33.080 - 00:44:49.210

was – who was Thai, uh, so we had, like, all the discussion about, um, how, we’re also kind of, like, underrepresented, in terms of, like, not even just art

00:44:49.310 - 00:45:06.820

alone, but, you know, in a lot of things. Because like when-when people think Asian, they always either think – it’s always almost Chinese, um, um, so, I feel like in the Brown

00:45:06.920 - 00:45:20.420

community we’re underrepresented, and then in the Asian community we’re underrepresented as well. So, yeah, it plays – my – me being Filipino plays a huge role I believe, um…

00:45:22.770 - 00:45:38.790

because – especially like for curators maybe or museum directors, um, when they automatically think, like, “Hey, we need Asian art,” then the-they wouldn’t automatically think, like, “Hey, Filipinos

00:45:40.610 - 00:45:57.800

are part of that,” you know? And, yeah, so, like in the Houston community I’m really pushing hard, um, for that to happen. I’m-I’m, like, in conversation with

00:45:58.000 - 00:46:11.400

Asia… Asia Society of Texas, um, which was, like, surprising. They have like a-a Filipino art show right now, but then it’s not like Filipinos in Houston,

00:46:13.240 - 00:46:34.820

so that’s the conversation that I wanted to bring in. Um, and then, um, you know, like even in-in just… art communities as well, like, especially, like with that, um, Brown artist retreat, um,

00:46:35.130 - 00:46:51.350

there was like a lot of other artists who were interested into, you know, collaborating and and listening to, you know, to what I had to say, so I think it can happen eventually.

00:46:55.870 - 00:47:14.040

Um, how, how connected are you with, like, the Filipino community in Houston? Um, it’s hard to say, um, because most Filipinos are very regionalistic, so it depends on where

00:47:14.040 - 00:47:30.570

you’re from, then that’s like part of the group that you hang out with. But, um, I would say… like I’m not best friends with them but I can work with them.

00:47:30.700 - 00:47:45.130

Um, um, there’s, you know, like, one of the Filipino communities here, um, they’re called Filipino Young Professionals, my sister-in-law is like

00:47:45.170 - 00:48:03.610

the president of that, uh, organization. And then there’s another one called UniPro, uh, which is a nationwide Filipino organization, um, like, I’m really good friends with-with, like, the president and-and, the other

00:48:05.570 - 00:48:27.110

officers involved in that. Um, among the Filipino artists, there’s really not a lot, and there’s really like not a solid group of people that – like I could say like that the person that I showed

00:48:27.110 - 00:48:40.620

with here at Rice, you know, Isabel, she’s the one that I’ve been showing with, um, for the most part who’s also Filipino. Um, but yeah,

00:48:40.720 - 00:48:59.380

well, that’s the goal is to like gather all of them and, uh, you know, start doing things together rather than just separately and being underrepresented and, so yeah, just lifting each other up as a community.

00:49:02.060 - 00:49:13.410

So, you’re, you’re trying to, like, get it off the ground, like the Filipino artist community here? Yeah, because it already, it already exists. There’s-there’s professors, there’s, you

00:49:13.800 - 00:49:33.890

know, um, there’s Filipinos in the creative community who’s already in positions that could kind of like help us. It’s just a matter of like getting, like, everybody together and doing something. Because, like, comparing – I talked with, like, other Filipino artists,

00:49:34.820 - 00:49:51.290

like in the East Coast and West Coast – comparing their communities to the Houston community, we’re like not even there. Yeah, we’re like baby compared to something – like I get jealous of communities in-in San Francisco in

00:49:51.290 - 00:50:11.420

particular because they have like everybody, like, they have curators, they have, you know, museum directors, um, they have gallery owners who are Filipino and, you know, that’s something that we barely have here. So, how do you see, like, that type of

00:50:11.450 - 00:50:30.000

community being able to form in the future, like, you working actively towards one like that? Um... what, like, what are the steps that I'm taking? I feel like, like my goal for this

00:50:30.000 - 00:50:45.330

year is to have an art show, um, because I feel like people need to see something first. Um, and then from there kind of like start building the community from inside, you know, like,

00:50:46.110 - 00:51:01.720

like maybe there's like... an artist who's struggling and, you know, but makes work, then maybe there's something we can do to, you know, help him or her in some way .

00:51:01.720 - 00:51:16.980

Um, and then maybe like start talking to like younger Filipino kids who wants to do something creative , but then are pressured, you know, to do something that they don't want to do .

00:51:17.930 - 00:51:33.140

Um, yeah, just, you know, like representation and how important that is. I think that if they see that there are Filipino artists out there and not just, you know, Asian artists in

00:51:34.280 - 00:51:47.900

general, then-then they'd be more confident in pursuing something that they really want. Then, you know, after that, hopefully, you know, a

00:51:48.020 - 00:52:09.890

community emerges where it's more solidified rather than separately, like how it is right now. Um, have there ever been periods where you felt insecure about your art or your abilities?

00:52:11.900 - 00:52:27.910

Yeah, all the time. Um, because... because I-I make work as a living, so I'm alone a lot. It's always like, a battle in my head like, "hey, you can do this," or

00:52:29.120 - 00:52:47.220

"why is this happening to me," kind of thing. Um, or like, "why wasn't I picked," you know, because like for, for an artist, it's kind of hard to just wait

00:52:47.960 - 00:53:06.440

to be like, "hey, like, pick me for this show or whatnot." But you have to apply to make shows or to to get involved in, in, in, in institutions and have a show like, you know, just like the one that we had. Um, my friend Isabel and I applied, uh, to

00:53:06.440 - 00:53:20.020

be shown here at Rice and we got accepted for that . Um, but when we get rejected, when I get rejected, I'm always like, "why?"

00:53:20.870 - 00:53:37.800

you know, but then I know that it's not really about the art. There's, you know, knowing institutions and knowing how like donors work and all that, that also comes from play. So that kind of like makes me just

00:53:37.800 - 00:53:51.020

like brush it off and be like, okay, well let me just make more work. You know, I can't have something like that slow me down if I get rejected and it's just going to be like one thing on top of that list

00:53:51.330 - 00:54:08.320

or that pile or – of rejecting-rejection letters and um, yeah, because you can see it, you can see it like... That the system is broken, and they don't want certain conversations involved in their institutions.

00:54:09.760 - 00:54:26.390

So yeah, they're scared. So how do you, like, confront that struggle? You know, with, like, the institution having, like, being, having gatekeepers and you trying to get into the-those, those gates.

00:54:29.310 - 00:54:48.140

It's hard. I mean, it's a question that I constantly ask myself because like , um, let's say like I type up a, uh, um, a proposal for-for a certain institution. I always ask my wife like, "Hey, can you

00:54:48.140 - 00:55:05.810

read this? Is this too white or is it white enough for them to understand?" So, in a way it's hard and it's – I hate it, that I have to kind of like whitewash my message, but then at the same time, if they get it, then that's going to be like a step

00:55:05.950 - 00:55:20.300

in. So, once I get my step in, then I can like start pulling, like, other people in, you know, you know what I mean? Um, but then at the same time, I'm very conflicted about the whole idea of like, "Hey, yeah,

00:55:20.790 - 00:55:36.520

you're at, you're in a respectable institution as a Filipino artist." But then I'm scared of thinking like, this is like the white audience and I hate and feeling...

00:55:38.420 - 00:55:55.470

being exotified or tokenized . Um, so that's like a constant question that I have, and I haven't really – I don't have any answers to that yet. Like how I have to deal with that, but it's just something I have to deal with.

00:55:56.700 - 00:56:13.980

Um, and I even asked this question, like, at that artist's retreat that I att—you know, that I attended recently, and even them, they don't know , but then most of their answers was just like,

00:56:14.620 - 00:56:29.980

we just need to get our foot in so we can start, um, disrupting system. And I was like, I agree, but I guess you just have to deal with the whole whitewashing

00:56:33.230 - 00:56:47.050

things, you know, and you just have to deal with being tokenized for a little bit, you know, kind of like doing it for the culture and doing it for the rest of...

00:56:47.050 - 00:57:04.690

the, you know, doing it for the next generation almost kind of thing. I see. So, have you been to, um, like showings outside of, like, have you showed your art outside of Houston before? Like, and what other areas have you gotten involved in?

00:57:05.460 - 00:57:19.960

Um, I've showed in LA. I've showed him in, in, like, San Francisco. I've shown in Oklahoma, Arizona, um, Dallas, I've shown there a lot.

00:57:21.900 - 00:57:38.070

Um, I've shown in San Antonio, um, DC, um, I'm going to be part of a show in Miami for the first time this year. Um, yeah.

00:57:39.460 - 00:58:00.950

How-how do, like, each of the areas, like, kind of, like, compare to each other? Well, you know, like the West Coast is... because their community is bigger there and more solidified, it's like, it's just easy, you know, you almost don't have,

00:58:01.050 - 00:58:14.200

like, to do anything really or have to worry about anything because it doesn't matter, like, what kind of message you put out there. It's sort of accepted or-or it's a discussion that'll already— Accessible?

00:58:16.050 - 00:58:33.210

Yeah. But, like, I felt like in DC it was kind of... I mean even in, in Dallas, not in Oak Cliff, but like, um, Deep Ellum.

00:58:34.840 - 00:58:50.720

Yeah. Like that, there was like – there's a gallery that I tried to show with, but, um, you know, because it's like a-an upscale gallery, so like the audience was mostly White and I had to, um,

00:58:52.990 - 00:59:08.930

kind of put extra effort into having to explain a lot of things . So, um, I think that's where I had to struggle the most, which is kind of weird.

00:59:10.780 - 00:59:24.960

Um, but yeah, it's mostly, like, with White audience, or mostly White audience. So, like what keeps you in Houston? Like, why the Houston art scene instead of going to like San

00:59:25.140 - 00:59:41.920

Francisco where it's open and accessible? Um, well, Houston mainly because, you know, my family's here, um, is the – where we immigrated to.

00:59:43.280 - 01:00:01.630

Um, and then, you know, my wife works here. Um, I don't know, there's something about Houston that's – it's like, it's like a big city, but a small city. Um, I feel

01:00:01.630 - 01:00:18.830

like... well now I feel like I have a mission to kind of like cultivate something here. You know, I don't want to just go into a city where it's already said, then you want e-,at thean you , you

01:00:18.830 - 01:00:34.720

have to be part of that. Um, um, I feel like that'll be just too easy. Um, uh, yeah, I mean, I like Houston. I don't like the cold that much.

01:00:35.980 - 01:00:54.100

Uh, I like the food here for the most part. You know, traveling, it's always disappointing having to travel and kind of, you know, just eat whatever. Um, um,

01:00:58.190 - 01:01:15.620

yeah, it's mostly family. Um, also, um, the cost of living is low and there's money here, um, you know, with the oil and gas industries here, biggest

01:01:16.600 - 01:01:40.220

medical center's here, so in a way, kind of works out. Um, so what do you think have been some of your favorite pieces or exhibits that you've enjoyed doing the most?

01:01:40.320 - 01:02:00.600

Um, it's hard to say. Um, I really enjoyed showing at the Pennzoil building in Downtown because of like, you know,

01:02:02.570 - 01:02:15.050

the history of the building. I was like, it's like a designer building almost, but I feel Johnson. Um, and then I just had like this

01:02:15.070 - 01:02:32.350

whole space for myself in the lobby, and, um, you know, it was intimate. There was like a lot of people that saw the-the show , or they didn't have to -- they could just like see it and they didn't have to,

01:02:34.280 - 01:02:48.580

kind of like, like, well, I guess it was more accessible to the public rather than having to like go inside a museum or a gallery or something like that, which is kind of intimidating to a lot of audience.

01:02:50.770 - 01:03:05.110

Um, uh, I mean I enjoyed my show here at Rice. Um, it was cold, but there was like a lot of interesting people, uh, like came, that's how I met

01:03:05.320 - 01:03:26.350

you guys. Um, um, there was a show in LA that I was part of, um, it wasn't just Filipino artists, but, but we were in the mix, but it was a lot of -- it was POC artists.

01:03:26.350 - 01:03:40.300

Um, and just the quality of the work, you know, from performance art to video art to photography, painting, sculpture.

01:03:41.990 - 01:04:00.030

I thought it was like a good, like a really good curated show. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, as an artist, like, who do you draw, like, a lot of

01:04:00.820 - 01:04:25.370

inspiration from? Um, I used to say, I used to say, um, like Cy Twombly, Robert Rauschenberg, you know, all these White artists , like de Kooning and all that.

01:04:25.370 - 01:04:44.870

It's like, yeah, like art history, you know, but eventually I got really bored with them and I started looking more into, um, you know, artists of color. So, what one of the artists that I take

01:04:44.870 - 01:05:01.860

inspiration from is, um, Leonardo Drew, who was a Black artist, and then Mark Bradford, um, Ruth Asawa who's Asian and she did sculpture. Um, and then

01:05:02.190 - 01:05:18.530

also looking into, um, not only art, but also, you know, like, authors and poets and all that. And then, yeah, just taking inspiration from all

01:05:25.950 - 01:05:40.740

that. Um, have you gone back to the Philippines since you immigrated here? No. Do you have family there? Yeah, I do, you know, extended family, but, um, we still have our house there. Um, and it's always

01:05:40.740 - 01:05:59.850

like a big debate with my parents, like whether to sell it or not. Um... we have plans, like, you know, my family and I, it's just, costs a lot of money, and the travel time is like

01:06:01.010 - 01:06:13.180

16-hour flights and all that. So, in a way, if you're really, you know, like I don't know if it's really going to be a vacation just because the travel alone is already exhausting.

01:06:13.990 - 01:06:28.680

Um, plus my kids, you know, like I have, I have a son who's only, who only turned five and I feel like he probably wouldn't enjoy it as much yet. So, I want everybody to enjoy it when we get back.

01:06:30.030 - 01:06:50.730

But my wife has been wanting to go, or maybe even live there, which I'm completely open to. How much of, like , your-your Filipino culture do you try to pass on to your son?

01:06:50.730 - 01:07:02.080

Um, well, I also have a daughter. Oh, your kids, your kids, your kids, I’m sorry. Yeah, um, I tried to. My wife always, like, tells me to like talk to them in Filipino, or Tagalog,

01:07:03.050 - 01:07:22.800

but it's hard for me because, like, my family, they talk to me in English because we were, we grew up speaking English first and, um, you know, and then my wife is fluent in Spanish and

01:07:23.050 - 01:07:37.540

English. So, if I say something in Filipino then she wouldn't understand it. So, it's like, but yeah, I try, you know, I-I-I I tell them words and I tell them like, "Hey, this is how you say, this is how to pronounce it, this is how you spell it." Um,

01:07:41.510 - 01:07:56.630

but then I also expose them to like the food, which they get a lot from my, my parents, you know, hanging out with my parents, or at their house because, you know, even my, even their cousins, um, my older brother's

01:07:58.380 - 01:08:18.430

wife is Filipino as well, but then my younger brother's wife is Vietnamese, and then my, um, my sister's fiancé is, is like Mexican, but he was raised as White. Um, so it's like the whole

01:08:18.430 - 01:08:35.840

UN whenever, you know, we get – Yeah. You know, we get to share like a lot of food, different kinds. Um, but yeah, it's the same thing with my wife, like, somet-, she talks to

01:08:35.900 - 01:08:54.720

them in Spanish sometimes and – but then I think we all get together, or we all agree like when it comes to food. So, like food has always been kind of like a gateway to introduce like different things to them as kids ,

01:08:55.930 - 01:09:07.610

you know, and-and, like I drop off my daughter to school every morning and there were – there are times where I would just listen to Filipino music or bands and whatnot.

01:09:07.670 - 01:09:22.000

I mean, I don't know if she cares, but, but it's there, you know, I'm sure she'll remember those things. I'm sure she'll recognize those things. Um, yeah, having Filipino

01:09:22.030 - 01:09:32.600

things at home. Tradi– oh, well we also celebrate like all the traditions, but then we also celebrate Mexican traditions at home. So, it's like the best of both worlds.

01:09:32.780 - 01:09:50.310

Um, do you have any goals for your work in the future? Any new ideas or...? Yeah, there's always, like, new ideas.

01:09:50.540 - 01:10:03.780

Um, I'm slowly, um, getting into more sculptural work, like more something -- well, I mean, my work has always been sculptural, but then they've always, like, hung

01:10:03.780 - 01:10:20.040

on the wall. So, now I'm getting into more something, you know, things that are objects that, like either like below in the floor or like lean on the wall or, you know, hang from the

01:10:20.040 - 01:10:36.950

ceiling or something like that. So, just broadening my whole practice. Um, my goal has always been, um, to be shown at the museum and maybe eventually I'll get there, I'm sure.

01:10:38.430 - 01:10:51.540

But yeah, that's always just been like, oh. Do you think that you'll continue to have a really strong sense of your Filipino identity in your work? I think so.

01:10:52.670 - 01:11:09.370

Probably even more so in the future, you know, than today, because, I mean, I'm surrounding myself with, like, Filipino literature as well. Um, and you know, I'm not just talking about

01:11:09.370 - 01:11:26.100

like dead poets or whatever or authors or whatever, but, you know, they're still working and writing and, um, making work. So, you know, I'm always going to be influenced, and then knowledge

01:11:26.690 - 01:11:42.670

about the history is just going to keep growing for me. Um, so yeah, so, maybe like in 20 years it probably be, you know, more Filipino than ever. Yeah, cause, I mean that's one of the reasons

01:11:42.940 - 01:12:01.830

why I chose to be an artist because I could be like on a wheelchair at 90 and still be making work , you know, compared to like 65 and overly tired and stressed out, you know, one of the reasons

01:12:05.320 - 01:12:26.740

why. Um, do you do anything else on the side besides working on your art, like, yeah? Uh, well I would say that it's my day job, like, like I make paintings for designers sometimes. So, that's how I get some of my income.

01:12:28.430 - 01:12:45.030

Like I do commission work and all that. And then... other things like install, because they need people to do install for them sometimes and I do that. Um, I take photographs

01:12:45.150 - 01:13:04.660

of Asian grocery stores inside, like a hobby because I think it's an interesting space to be in . Um, um, there's almost kind of like a home feel to it ,

01:13:05.330 - 01:13:23.680

you know. Uh, it's, it's a different feeling I get like, you know, going to whole foods or-or HEB or Kroger, it's completely different. And the food is always... like a thing. Um,

01:13:26.760 - 01:13:44.830

you know, and and a lot of identities can be, um... identified, um, or-or explained by food alone.

01:13:45.670 - 01:14:00.800

So, you know, like, I dunno, it's just some side project that I do. Um, yeah, I mean I've gotten a lot of good response from it just because like people have different reasons

01:14:02.420 - 01:14:20.900

on why they – they're really, like, I don't know, I just get random messages saying like, "Hey, I really like what you're doing," so, okay. I'll just keep going. Um, yeah. I mean it talks a lot about the immigrant story and how

01:14:21.740 - 01:14:47.390

the first Chinese immigrants were the first ones to start restaurants here in the US, so, that as well. Um, uh, do you have any, like, goals for the future in general? As an, like, an artist or as a person or

01:14:48.570 - 01:15:06.210

anything? Um, I mean like what I mentioned earlier, um, the goal has always been, um, you know, to be kind of like side by side with, like, the big White

01:15:07.970 - 01:15:20.910

artists that like, you know, like, "Oh, who's your favorite artist? Picasso?" I want to change that story. You know, like I want to change it to where like, "Hey, you have a Manalo," or something like that, or,

01:15:23.480 - 01:15:36.220

um , because like... I feel like I have a purpose immigrating here. Like, it wasn't really clear to me at first, but then...

01:15:38.380 - 01:15:56.860

now, um, it's become, you know, clear to me as like what I should be doing and, yeah, I just really want to change that whole narrative of

01:15:59.510 - 01:16:14.120

the whole, like, who should be the artist, or should you – who's... like, who is capable of being an artist in, in, in America. Um, yeah, I mean it's always,

01:16:14.540 - 01:16:32.380

it has always been the White male and, and it's still the same way even after, you know, so many years. Like the artists that are still being talked about right now are dead and they were making work like in the 70s or something like that,

01:16:33.490 - 01:16:48.740

and it's still the same way and that has to change. So, like, while I'm doing that as well, I think that it's important to also uplift other communities, like, you know, the Black

01:16:48.800 - 01:17:07.230

communities and the Latino communities because like whatever, um, whatever step forward that they make will-will be good for us, for everybody. So yeah,

01:17:07.830 - 01:17:26.190

that's the goal. Are you connected with any sense like the art – contemporary artists community in the Philippines? Um, I have an uncle who's like a well-known artist there , but I not really

01:17:26.550 - 01:17:39.460

like personally close to him . In a way I kind of don't want to cause I want to make a name for myself, but I'm – it's like an audience that I'm trying to build as well .

01:17:40.320 - 01:17:56.330

Eventually, like, you know, um, people have started collecting my work there, but I haven't really shown there yet . Um, so yeah, eventually I'll get to some point , you know, without having, you know, to use

01:17:56.330 - 01:18:09.700

like my family card to get that . Um, you know, and then I have my cousins whose – who said the same thing and who are willing to like help, you know, to make that possible.

01:18:10.190 - 01:18:28.030

Do you feel like the-the art of the-, contemporary Filipino community in the Philippines themselves is any – is diff—very much different from the Filipino American community

01:18:28.830 - 01:18:45.790

in America? Yeah, it is. Because like, um... It started, it only really started booming like maybe five to six years ago and I was like closely following it.

01:18:47.080 - 01:19:02.660

A lot of, a lot of Filipino are, um... a lot of them still talk about it, just like, you know, what is beautiful or something

01:19:04.690 - 01:19:21.060

aesthetic based. But I feel like the Filipino American art has been more political. Um, I know a lot of folks who, you know, do a lot of portraiture

01:19:21.980 - 01:19:40.500

because you know, they want to talk about identity here, like what it is to be a Filipino immigrant here. But if you're a Filipino artist in the Philippines then you get to... I guess that's like the least of your problems, so, that's, like, something that

01:19:40.500 - 01:19:54.390

you don't really talk about . Um, so yeah, that's – I feel like it's completely different. Although there's like some artists who travel back and

01:19:54.390 - 01:20:16.390

forth and I see their work and they do both, which is okay. I mean there's nothing wrong with, with whatever subject matter they choose , but I can tell that it's different. Um, I guess in terms of like, cause you push a lot of like political

01:20:16.390 - 01:20:29.000

messages through your, your, like, identity and your art. Do you – are you involved with, like, any type of, like, activism and, like, cause there's a lot of intersections between art and activism?

01:20:29.770 - 01:20:47.230

So, like, do you interact with, like, any modes of activism here at – in Houston or...? Um, yeah, but you know, I-I-I do it like in a personal way .

01:20:47.700 - 01:21:05.080

Um, and I, and I do things like, cause I, you know, I do support like Black Lives Matter, um, um, organizations, like, who are for,

01:21:05.840 - 01:21:20.330

you know, immigration and all that. Um, but I feel like there's also a lot of things that we need to learn for ourselves that we have to do to take part of, you know, in that

01:21:20.390 - 01:21:35.490

activism and to take part in that process of healing of communities and all that . So, I'm doing a lot of like that in personal manner where I'm learning so that I could speak and stand up better for

01:21:35.870 - 01:21:53.020

other people. Um, but also because I have kids, so I'm kind of like push it back a little bit. Cause I know I don't want to get; you know, somebody can easily just pull out a gun at a protest and, you know,

01:21:53.060 - 01:22:05.410

I don't want my kids to be fatherless either. Um, so in a way I'm being careful about that. Um, I mean I-I-I-I

01:22:06.640 - 01:22:24.680

try to make it known to like people that this is what I stand for. Um, you know, like, cause I have family members, I have, um, friends who are like Trump supporters and all that , and they think that what he's doing is like the best for the country.

01:22:24.680 - 01:22:43.770

And I'm like, "Yeah, but know that this is what I think about it," you know, "Know that this is what I stand for." Um, so yeah, like talking to people, you know, like my friends and family about those things, that's how

01:22:46.580 - 01:22:57.540

I'm, you know, doing my activism. Um , like, I don't really want to be like a troll or something like that online or anything, cause I feel like it's a waste of time.

01:22:57.810 - 01:23:13.820

I feel like you can... the best way to, like, convince someone or to change their hearts is to talk to them as a friend. But then if they, if they retaliate like in an aggressive manner, then that's completely

01:23:14.180 - 01:23:24.940

different, you know , that's where it gets scary for me. And it's something I'm not ready for at the moment. I see. Chelsey, did you

01:23:27.360 - 01:23:43.800

have any other questions? No, no. Unless you have anything else you want to talk about? Oh, well I guess like talking about more about activism, like I support communities of color, like,

01:23:44.000 - 01:23:55.810

especially within the art, like, I support Project Row Houses a lot and what they stand for and what they do. You know, the community that they're trying to build. Like there's the SHAPE Center that's part of the Third Ward.

01:23:57.110 - 01:24:15.240

Um, but yeah, like, I even have, like, a friend who was, like, the food blogger, but he only talks about, or he only features, like, Black owned businesses and restaurants and stuff like that, and yeah, like, I completely support his cause, and I have a friend who

01:24:15.370 - 01:24:33.930

owns a restaurant, um, and he's getting, like, huge, like, in the whole food communities scene, um, at a national scale. That's funny because I met him and he

01:24:33.930 - 01:24:50.060

was just like a, an assistant chef back then and now he has his own restaurant. Um, yeah, I mean it was like a Filipino member in the Black

01:24:50.130 - 01:25:08.390

Panther community, you know. So, you know, I feel like being a person, we have, like, that responsibility towards each other and, um, on aI don't know, on a bigger scale, not

01:25:08.390 - 01:25:22.670

just to ourselves but to, like, a community, you have to build that, you know, so that everybody can live in a better place and not just like, you know, like the Asian community is better than, you know –

01:25:23.150 - 01:25:40.800

comparing ourselves is not going to change things, but if we work together as one and we're here to like, fight one problem, which is White supremacy, than I think everybody can, um, can,

01:25:42.870 - 01:26:00.170

uh, take advantage of that or benefit from it. So, yeah. Absolutely. I don't – I think we don't really have any more questions, so, all right.

01:26:00.550 - 01:26:06.660

Well, thank you for your time and allowing us to interview you. Yeah. Thank you. It was a pleasure.