00:00:01.210 - 00:00:18.610

Well, Mary, we were just, uh, uh, informally talking here as a sort of a warm up session to our interview this afternoon and I'm interested in, um, having you, uh, recall for us if you would, uh, your reaction to, uh, the news that Kenneth Pitzer had

00:00:18.620 - 00:00:34.110

resigned. So you're a senior this year. So you've been, you've been here all four years of your college career? Ok. What, how did you get the news of pitcher's resignation? Uh, I was in Colorado and I remember being very surprised because it was, there was an

00:00:34.119 - 00:00:50.020

article about it in our hometown newspaper and, uh, I just, it just came as a complete shock to me because it wasn't anything that I had expected at all. And I started thinking about, uh, how it, it seemed a shame to me because I, I had

00:00:50.029 - 00:01:03.560

liked Pitzer. I really had never known particularly much about him. I met him a couple of times at formal occasions but I didn't, didn't really know him and I, but I did know that he was quite well respected throughout the university and I sort of picked

00:01:03.569 - 00:01:22.129

this up myself. Um, I was sort of pleased for him that he was going to Stanford. It was a school that I had always thought was heard or felt was a good school and such. But I thought that rice was certainly a good man. And um,

00:01:24.019 - 00:01:40.180

then at the beginning of the school year, there were rumors about some students who weren't thinking that they should have a have, I don't know, a fairly definite say in what, in who the next president was going to be. But I felt most of my friends

00:01:40.190 - 00:01:54.889

and the people that I knew felt that it should be uh what they most wanted was to see the faculty have some sort of say in um what who the next person should be and that the student voice should be limited more to, to telling faculty

00:01:54.900 - 00:02:11.289

members what kind of qualities they thought should be in the new president. And um so we were really quite, most of the people I knew were really quite surprised when we heard the announcement that both students and faculty would be on this, on this advisory committee

00:02:11.300 - 00:02:25.479

and we were very, very proud so to speak and happy that this is going to be the case. And um I remember there was a little bit of f at the time just among the college presidents and some of the, and some of the S A

00:02:25.490 - 00:02:48.089

leaders as to how we were going to choose the students for this committee. And uh actually what the problem came down to was whether or not we should just have representatives from the colleges and the colleges choosing themselves or whether the S A should, should by

00:02:48.100 - 00:03:06.149

some sort of committee interviewing situation, choose the students, which is usually the way students are chosen for faculty, student committees. I see that, that interested students apply for. And then a community, usually student leaders, so to speak as a, as a uh officers and usually maybe

00:03:06.160 - 00:03:23.369

some of the college presidents interview these students and then choose which one should be. And um actually that controversy was more because of the personalities of some of the others involved. One of the college of the college presidents was very concerned. It seemed that the essay

00:03:23.380 - 00:03:38.690

was to him taking more responsibility in some of these affairs than he thought they should, it should be more in the colleges. But that was kind of an ideological battle. This might be, this might have a bearing though the selection of the students I, we haven't

00:03:38.699 - 00:03:59.020

gotten into before with anyone. So I, I would like for you to amplify on this if you would um who, who in the college committee was uh questioning the, the mostly the president of wr um is this, is this Tom plan still? He seemed, he seemed

00:03:59.029 - 00:04:13.399

very concerned that that maybe the S A was just gonna take over on this. And there, there is a battle between Tom from my point of view it seems that they, they don't get along too well and there's kind of a vibe for them. But, um,

00:04:14.649 - 00:04:31.920

so it was finally resolved anyway, just by discussions of Warren with us that we, we go ahead and have a combination that the college is choosing each, choosing a representative and then the S A choosing four representatives. And this would choose, would form an 11 student,

00:04:31.929 - 00:04:49.890

11 member student committee. And then these students would choose from themselves the uh students to be on the on the actual student committee. And you were involved in this because you were representing Brown College, Brown College. OK. You're as I understand you're president of Brown College.

00:04:49.899 - 00:05:21.989

I was who is your president elect over there? Have you had your election for next year? Ozal, Lisa. Ozal, Ozal. OK. Og er Ogorzaly Ly not Elel one. Yeah. So each, so each uh college then set up its own method of choosing their representative. We just

00:05:22.000 - 00:05:36.040

called together in Brown. We called together a meeting of students who were interested in being on this committee and then the groups of us that were there chose the one that we thought we wanted to send to this committee, other colleges, some of them held interviews

00:05:36.049 - 00:05:51.029

and some of them just let the cabinet choose it with their own different methods. So anyway, this uh 11 person committee was set up. Who, how many did you interview from Brown? A minute for this committee? Were there very many of the people being on this

00:05:51.040 - 00:06:08.170

committee, there were about seven or eight who really wanted to be on the committee. There were four or five others who came because they wanted to help choose. Uh let's see, did the, did the cabinet uh choose? Uh no, just the people who were interested, people

00:06:08.190 - 00:06:24.980

who were interested chose. So, so they uh people selected themselves to be on a committee to, to choose who would be on the, on the committee. OK. And then uh some of the other colleges did it more strictly, more formally. So you picked out one out

00:06:24.989 - 00:06:51.799

of your seven or so. Who wanted to be on it? Who, who was, who was selected from around to be on? How does she spell her last name? Jitkoff. Her father is a Russian professor here and Tasha T a Tasha eash ad this was back in

00:06:51.809 - 00:07:10.040

October or sometime. Yeah, I believe, I don't remember exactly the month, but it was around then right before the 11 person was born. And so then they chose the two undergraduates for the committee. I'm not exactly sure how the graduate was chosen. I'm not sure. So,

00:07:10.049 - 00:07:27.989

um and the main connection that I have with any of the students on uh that were actually chosen Barry and Greg Barry is, has been in one of my classes this semester. But other than that, they're not people that I know. Well, you mentioned earlier that

00:07:28.000 - 00:07:46.619

uh there were some students on campus who, um, uh, voiced the opinion that the student should have a, oh, say, definite voice in the selection of the president. Did you associate this opinion with any particular group? Yeah, there was a new committee set up this year

00:07:46.630 - 00:08:05.250

called the Student Action Committee and, uh, later it disbanded and became the SDS the second semester. And it was, it was a more radical element of the student body. They were sort of proposing some sort of an election, I think probably by the only university on,

00:08:05.260 - 00:08:24.799

on candidates for president so to speak. Did this get uh where you sat? Did this get very much support from the student body as a whole? I wouldn't say so, but um it was probably a lot because of their efforts that the students got as much

00:08:24.809 - 00:08:41.059

say as they did, I would say because just from the people, I know, I would say the general attitude was more, let's just have a faculty committee and students could not do them, you know. So, um and that was, that was the standard of events then

00:08:41.070 - 00:08:54.049

once it was set up and, and I didn't have any really direct contact with the committee. I didn't know what was going on in that particular area. Did you have any strong feelings one way or the other about the uh the qualities the new man should

00:08:54.059 - 00:09:14.039

have? I didn't, I didn't really think about it too much to tell you the truth. I, um, I had thought, hi Pitzer had been good and I wanted somebody like that. Although I heard, had heard also that Pitzer had had some trouble with the board himself.

00:09:14.049 - 00:09:34.239

And, uh, so I was wondering if they would choose somebody a similar, I didn't know what they would do. Um, definitely somebody who was an eminent scholar in his field and some way or another could demonstrate that he could get along with, with faculty and students

00:09:34.250 - 00:09:58.250

and um sort of in a what I consider a liberal vein as far as the particular feeling you mentioned, having heard the pitcher had some uh kinds of uh difficulties with the board. What kinds of difficulties uh did you hear about? And what would this, how

00:09:58.260 - 00:10:24.719

would you interpret this in as applying to the selection of a new president? I knew that there had been some trouble when, when Pitzer wanted to, to, um, I guess it was Pitzer and yeah, who wanted to change the will of, of William Marsh Rice in

00:10:24.729 - 00:10:54.159

allowing, in charging tuition and allowing Negro students? And um I just heard that was a pretty nasty battle and I don't, but I didn't hear anything particularly specific about it. Um See, does this, did, did it occur to you that, that if the board were against

00:10:54.169 - 00:11:13.520

admitting uh more minority students, for instance, that they might choose someone who would be against this policy or wouldn't uh, actively pursue it. It's, it seems logical. I didn't think about it particularly much. So. So this didn't really enter into a, a factor of, of any

00:11:13.530 - 00:11:28.979

anxiety about what the board might do. No, because, because it was more later, it was more during this year that I heard about the troubles with the board that Pitzer had and not, not previously. So that, uh, that it didn't occur to me too much. Did

00:11:28.989 - 00:11:45.909

you, uh, uh, suggest any names of any particular, um, applicants that you thought would make? Uh, no, I didn't, I didn't feel like I knew enough about anybody. Did you, did you hear anybody's name mentioned in the rumors around campus who, uh, who stirred your imagination

00:11:45.919 - 00:12:01.200

and interest? I guess the one that most people talked about was Jan, but people heard all sorts of speculations as to whether they do it and whether he can be good or bad or whatever, everybody thought he'd be good as a money maker, weren't sure about

00:12:01.250 - 00:12:26.809

anything else. And, uh, other than that, I really didn't. Did you ever hear Masterson's name mentioned? No, no, that's, that was, and sort of my background is before the actual four day event occurred. Uh, whichever it was, was, was that I wasn't sure what was going

00:12:26.820 - 00:12:45.150

on. I kind of trusted that, that it was, things were going all right. And I remember, um, that Friday when the board was Mr Allen was gonna make his announcement to us. Um, I had a test in one class and then I had a hurried lunch

00:12:45.159 - 00:13:00.859

and I went to the next class. The first thing I heard was somebody saying they just announced on the radio that Master Show was gonna be the next president of Rice. And I was really shocked. I was shocked that, that they had gotten that far because

00:13:00.869 - 00:13:14.979

I had sort of assumed that it was gonna take a while, quite a while for this selection to take place. And I hadn't heard people talking about it and I kind of expected that when, before the actual decision was made, more discussion throughout the campus would

00:13:14.989 - 00:13:30.080

be going on. I mean, people really might be talking about it more and I just hadn't heard anything. Did you know anything about Masterson at this time? Uh, I had had him for history on as a freshman. I thought he was a very good lecturer. I

00:13:30.090 - 00:13:46.059

really did. I didn't like where he conducted the course. What didn't you like? I didn't like the doors being locked five minutes after lecture began. Although I could understand it to the extent. And I didn't think that his tests were good. I didn't think that they,

00:13:46.229 - 00:14:01.950

um, act that, uh, asked questions that to me were important. They were, they were more just to me, they were sort of objective tests without the questions because our greater said there were a list of things that had to be included in these tests and they'd

00:14:01.960 - 00:14:18.440

go down and mark off points if they weren't included instead of any kind of your comprehension of it and your putting, how you put things together in this sort of thing. I thought there should be more interpretive, uh, sort of thing with history. So that, but

00:14:18.450 - 00:14:33.570

I thought he was, uh, um, a good lecture and I knew that some of the boys at Hanson didn't like him as a master. I think, I thought he was rather authoritarian and the sort of myth of the God squad over there. Sort of, there was

00:14:33.580 - 00:14:49.349

a myth of what they call the God squad. The students who went along with Masterson and he could kind of get them to do what they, they were usually were the officers and stuff and he could kind of get them to do whatever he wanted. And

00:14:49.359 - 00:15:11.659

um other than, and other than that, not too much. Um So when I heard this, I was shocked that it had happened, I was not upset because I didn't know whether it had been done properly or not. I didn't, and I didn't feel that I knew

00:15:11.669 - 00:15:32.330

enough about Masterson at that point as to whether or not I thought he would be good even though I didn't particularly like the way he'd conducted the course. Um But when the next, the next real communication I got about it was about this urgent meeting, we

00:15:32.340 - 00:15:44.200

were gonna have with Mr Allen and he was gonna tell us what happened, he was gonna make the announcement. And the thing that surprised me in this meeting, it was in a small room and there were a whole bunch of people packed into it. The thing

00:15:44.210 - 00:16:00.609

that surprised me was that he, he just announced it and um it was as if he didn't expect any kind of reaction and, and just the people reacting that all sort of seemed to surprise and, and then when they reacted negatively, I think it was very

00:16:00.619 - 00:16:19.090

hard and he didn't understand. And uh so that meeting didn't, wasn't conclusive in any way, he just announced it. Some students said they expressed the feeling that they felt um that we had not done the right thing and not consulting the committee. And this was the

00:16:19.099 - 00:16:39.280

first that I had heard about the committee not being consulted. Uh So what was his reaction to that? What was his reaction to the questions that were brought up? Uh time? He didn't really, he wasn't very expressive of anything. He, he kind of said, uh yeah,

00:16:40.630 - 00:16:57.000

he said that um some sort of, there was a rush of events that had occurred which did not enable them to carry out as detailed an action as they would have. They thought maybe they should have. But then when asked what this rush of medicine was,

00:16:57.010 - 00:17:13.010

he would not, he was saying he didn't think he could comment on that. Did you have any idea what he might mean by that? No. Did it cross your mind that, that he might be talking about the establishment of the SDS chapter on campus? Did it

00:17:13.020 - 00:17:28.198

occur to you that you might have in mind some of the other events that were going on in the campuses or? Um, did you not relate it really to anything? Uh, I didn't relate it until later when people started saying some more, uh, things about Masterson

00:17:28.208 - 00:17:55.650

himself and how, gee, I can't remember. I got the idea at one point, I'm not sure if it was true or not. That Masterson had already resigned from the University of Chattanooga before he was selected. And then maybe that made him, made them choose him fast

00:17:55.660 - 00:18:13.270

or something like that. But I don't really recall to. Uh, so you didn't really relate it to the campus situation here, uh, to the extent you thought of it. Uh, um, at this meeting, Mary did, um, was there any particular individual who spoke up who impressed

00:18:13.280 - 00:18:40.040

you? Especially the, what stands out in your mind in that meeting? I, I remember Mr Allen making the announcement, um, Warren said something about the sort of violation of trust kind of thing and that this wasn't going to be accepted. And then Barry was, was really

00:18:40.050 - 00:18:58.979

quite adamant having been a member of the committee. And I remember one person saying he felt like a sucker and other than that. I don't have a clear recollection of that meeting. What was your reaction to, uh, to Barry's comment? Well, as soon as it, as

00:18:58.989 - 00:19:16.920

soon as it became sort of clear to me that the committee had not been very much involved, I, I understood very well why she would say that I'm not at all outspoken, like period is, and, and I don't share all of her feelings and yet I

00:19:16.930 - 00:19:33.599

can understand very much she felt. Did you get the impression at this stage that there that there would be uh very much objection or any objection to the man to the, to the uh the man who was elected by? I knew that there was, I knew

00:19:33.680 - 00:19:48.300

just within the interim between that one class when I heard about it in between the meeting, I knew that there were several people talking about how they didn't really like Masterson in person and one graduate student, a graduate assistant in Brown who's in history saying that

00:19:48.599 - 00:20:06.619

he's not well known in history. He's not as good, a good scholar in history, particularly as far as being nationally known. So and um and others of us who had had him as students, didn't really think he was happy, particularly who as an administrator, that post.

00:20:07.060 - 00:20:25.920

And um so I knew that there was feeling, I didn't know about faculty feeling in this meeting. Did anyone raise the point that people would object to the man they selected at this meeting with Allen. Not that I recall, no one suggested that the reason they

00:20:25.930 - 00:20:41.540

objected to the method of selection was that if they had followed the right procedure, this man would have been vetoed. I don't think so. That that really wasn't pursued. In other words, as far as you know, Mr Allen left that meeting with the, with the understanding

00:20:41.550 - 00:21:01.239

that nobody objected to the man, they just objected to the procedure. Would that be true? I think he probably felt that way he is because nobody said anything specific about Masterson himself that I recall. So then, so then we marched down to the music theater, those

00:21:01.250 - 00:21:14.420

of us who were there and explained to all the students who were there, Barry and, and Warren mainly explained to the students what happened? That was when I got the first detailed account I had of the what the committee had done in their attempts to meet

00:21:14.430 - 00:21:29.790

with the Yes, what was communicated to the students at this meeting about what the committee had done? She said that uh she explained how they had tried to meet with the board. She didn't say how many times or anything like that. She just said that they

00:21:29.800 - 00:21:43.510

had tried to get the board to meet with them and that the board had never been able to do so. She said that um as a result, they just kind of went ahead and worked on it themselves and studied these 60 names prepared a list of

00:21:43.520 - 00:21:57.170

five just to get the board moving. That was her main point there issue. They were trying to get the board moving and they were very shocked to get this reply saying we have chosen Doctor Masterson. I don't recall whether she said love it or any of

00:21:57.180 - 00:22:14.410

the board. Um, gave any reply to this list of five names that they submitted. But did she imply at the time that the Matine was not on the list? And she said that the mattress was not on the list? Did she indicate that he had been

00:22:14.420 - 00:22:35.000

considered or did she not make any comment on that? Um Yes, she said that he had been considered among the 16 names and that was not on the list of five, but she didn't elaborate further about him himself. Am I think the main thing that I

00:22:35.010 - 00:22:50.479

think she was trying to convey was that the committee had been working hard and had never really been communicated with by the board and they just felt lost. I mean, they'd done all this for absolutely nothing. And that as such, the committee is representing us, we

00:22:50.489 - 00:23:12.160

should feel deeply, deeply hurt by this. So, uh then we went outside and walked down to the chemistry building where the family were meeting and Barry kind of slipped in and was listening to what was going on and she'd come out and tell us what they

00:23:12.170 - 00:23:32.729

were saying. And that she communicated, the vote was taken mainly like the past and then the bey came out and we all cheered. What was your reaction to the faculty vote? I was, I was happy. I mean, I did feel bad that the committee had not

00:23:32.739 - 00:23:51.729

been consulted more than that. I didn't think that was procedurally correct at all. And because I was kind of hesitant about matching himself, although not violent myself at the time, um I felt this was a very, not a good, was it at the physics amphitheater meeting?

00:23:52.130 - 00:24:05.400

Is there anything else that stands out in your mind? Uh At that meeting, you said that Barry and Warren spoke, did it, were any faculty members there who spoke? No, any other students speak? A few of the other, a few of the boys said something, but

00:24:05.410 - 00:24:24.280

I don't remember at all what they said except I think Tom and Mike Berman of Baker, uh just were kind of emphasizing to how um how much we had tried, you know, how much they submitted to us in, in selecting people to this committee and such.

00:24:24.520 - 00:24:46.099

And then we felt sort of betrayed by the resultant action. Was this uh anxiety that um was this anxiety generalized into larger issues that by anyone who spoke at that meeting, for instance, was the committee system uh appear to be threatened. Uh Did anyone generalize into

00:24:46.920 - 00:25:08.400

uh a little bit, I believe Barry mentioned and, and just the statement that this, the S A came out with a sort of, of the, this action of the board of our trust, the that we believed existed kind of extended to the committee system. But that

00:25:08.410 - 00:25:25.770

actually came up more in the later issues subsequently after the faculty meeting. So then we uh I went back to Brown and um told people at dinner that we'd have a meeting later on that night at the college meeting to explain what had been going on.

00:25:25.780 - 00:25:46.079

It was, it was funny, um, most of the Brown girls were going out to an uh French navy ship that had landed that night. And so I didn't get to most of them until quite late that evening. But, um, I, I had a sense of feeling

00:25:46.089 - 00:26:01.380

that I better stick around and see what was going to happen. So I was called later on about a meeting at Hanson. And so I went over to that where they planned the teaching and what was going on would go on for the very next day.

00:26:01.390 - 00:26:15.079

It was kind of decided at that point not to plan too far ahead and just do one thing at a time as they came up. And after we did one thing we would evaluate and decide what to do next. So, uh it was an interesting meeting.

00:26:15.089 - 00:26:31.430

There were even some mothers there saying what they thought we should do, how we should demonstrate so that people wouldn't be upset with us and such by wearing coats and the boys came up with the idea of mother's face. It was great. I'm going to take

00:26:31.439 - 00:26:46.910

advantage of this, flip this tape over a moment here that we can do that. I think. Ok, just to back up for a moment. Um, Mary, I want to, um, ask you how you happen to have your, uh, ho how you happen to decide to have

00:26:46.920 - 00:27:01.040

your meeting at Brown that night? Was this something you discussed with others earlier in S A or what? Um, we hadn't discussed it. Apparently some of them had gotten together earlier about noon. I hadn't heard about the meeting because I didn't need it in my college

00:27:01.050 - 00:27:17.150

that time and I didn't get the notice of that meeting. Um, but I don't, I mean, I think I talked to a couple of them after the student and faculty meetings that afternoon, a couple of the other presidents and they were going to have meetings. I

00:27:17.160 - 00:27:30.880

remember some of my college members saying, oh, we're going to have a meeting about it and I felt that it was definitely warranted. I thought that, that all the students definitely needed to know what was going on, needed to decide in their own minds, what they

00:27:30.890 - 00:27:50.439

thought should be done. So, the purpose of the meeting was informative mainly and to tell people what would go on the next day so they could find out more about it. And, um, so they had some meeting, then they decided to, to have exactly how the

00:27:50.449 - 00:28:11.869

procedure was gonna be set up for the teaching the next morning. And, uh, then I went back to Brown and we had a meeting, there were only about 60 or 70 people there. Um, and I just explained to them what had happened during the day, but

00:28:12.369 - 00:28:27.859

because some of them didn't know, especially the ones who've been off the ship. And so we went ahead and posted signs around and we kept having announcements the next morning to let people know that they were about the teaching. I missed that point about how late

00:28:27.869 - 00:28:41.959

you had the meeting with at Brown. It was, it was either 1230 or one. It was late. That was another reason why it wasn't too well attended because we kind of changed the times a couple of times. Do you have hours over at Brown? Uh On

00:28:41.969 - 00:29:05.760

weekend nights, people have to be back when, um, well, the set curfew is one o'clock, Friday, two o'clock, Saturday and 12 o'clock all other nights. But, um, seniors, juniors and sophomores who have parental permission, the others, all, all seniors and juniors came out. Uh I have

00:29:05.770 - 00:29:33.510

flexible curfew, which is that there. So, let's see. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about the Hanson meeting, uh, who spoke over there that impressed you especially. Um, I don't remember being in, I wasn't particularly impressed by any one person I was, I

00:29:33.520 - 00:29:52.130

was impressed by the way it was, it seemed to be fitting together fairly well and people would thrash things out a little bit and go ahead and decide on something. Did, did uh anything emerge in your mind about eventual goals, the, the, the purpose of all

00:29:52.140 - 00:30:15.449

this activity? Not then, not then because I wasn't sure yet how far we would wanna take it. But I did think that we should try to let uh Masterson know the next day, how we felt about the procedural matters. So your understanding of the purpose of

00:30:15.459 - 00:30:35.180

the activity Friday night was uh again in, in to protest the uh procedure, the procedure and let people know how you felt and then you were sort of open on what, what, what would come next, right? And that really came to be our policy among those

00:30:35.189 - 00:30:48.959

of us who were supposedly directing it was to, to decide after each thing had happened, what would be the next thing we would do instead of trying to plan an overall thing because somehow we knew somehow we had to communicate with the board at some point.

00:30:49.219 - 00:31:02.920

You know, it depended so much on, on the reactions of the individuals who are communicating with, which is why we didn't know how we get ahead of time. Did you get the impression that there was any sentiment emerging from all of this activity uh that, that

00:31:02.930 - 00:31:20.680

might be termed anti Masterson sentiment or was it still anti procedural? It was still anti procedural. I, I feel very much so, I think a couple of people would say something about Masterson, but that was usually put down. Warren would put it down usually. But we

00:31:20.689 - 00:31:44.729

just, we just didn't feel in small groups, people would talk about Masterson themselves at large meetings. That didn't, did you hear anything during this time that that changed your attitude about Masterson uh uh as a as a replacement? Um the graduate student who would say that

00:31:44.739 - 00:32:07.349

about him in history that, that disturbed me that, that he really wasn't a top scholar. And um and the things that more turned me against him personally was was various mem feelings of many faculty members towards him personally. So the faculty vote had an effect. Uh

00:32:07.729 - 00:32:30.530

Definitely OK. And so, and I, I remember a lot of many students being upset when they would hear us particularly say freshman say, oh, I hate masters when they didn't know him at all and this kind of thing. So that I think people tried pretty much

00:32:30.540 - 00:32:54.869

to keep it down the personal thing because obviously that was too individualized. So um we had the teaching the next day, it ran fairly smoothly. I don't remember picking up anything new from, from what any of the people said in the, in the talks. Anyone's talk

00:32:55.719 - 00:33:10.469

that out in your mind. I remember Castaneda as the one who was for him but I did. What points did he make? Do you recall that? I didn't, he made the point that he had, he had submitted his name and he thought he would be very

00:33:10.479 - 00:33:25.560

good that he was a personal friend, was a personal friend of his and he thought he would be good. I don't remember any other points he made as to why he would be good and such. What kind of reception did he get from the audience? Casting

00:33:25.579 - 00:33:45.229

a speech? They weren't nasty to him, but he didn't get any kind of rousing reception. There were no, were there any hostile or provocative questions or responses or was it just sort of, I mean, not numb? But uh we wanted to, Warren was trying to keep

00:33:45.239 - 00:34:00.160

it down then because, um, we didn't have too much time when we had to get back to, on our, for our march down to co house. So, uh we didn't, they didn't really allow much time or questions. Did anyone else speak? Uh, who was pro Masterson?

00:34:01.349 - 00:34:20.300

Not, I call, who was the most anti Masterson speaker? I remember, um, Doctor Ward in the English Department. He's one of, I had him for a professor my freshman year and also he's an associate of Brown. I was surprised at how sort of hostile his speech,

00:34:20.310 - 00:34:43.789

his speech was. It, it, it was more an emotional appeal and it wasn't too much informative. I didn't feel. How did it strike you Um, yeah, and it, it sort of bothered me because I, because I did feel like it was an emotional peal and I

00:34:43.799 - 00:35:03.780

didn't think that that was necessary yet. Was it directed at heart mostly? Do you recall? I felt, I felt like he had a very person, such a very personal antagonism and toward master. Have you ever heard anything that might have gone on between them that might

00:35:03.790 - 00:35:26.449

have explained this? Or were you just at a loss for an explanation? I was at a loss. I was, I was at a loss at the time. I heard later something about his blocking, Masterson's blocking, accepting some professor earlier. Masterson told us that. No, in fact

00:35:26.889 - 00:35:41.050

that that one of the professors he knew who was most adamant against him was one that he, he, when he was Dean of Humanities had not let come to rise and he um and he does, he still didn't think that he should be here. But I,

00:35:41.060 - 00:35:58.100

that's pure speculation. I thought, well, maybe doctor I had no idea really because, because I did feel a very personal resentment in the speech that Doctor Ward gave. Well, let's see if Masterson was here when you were a freshman, wasn't he? And, and I don't know

00:35:58.110 - 00:36:22.840

when a doctor came here and Doctor Ward was here then too, but, but Masterson was not Dean of Humanities then. So that was earlier. Yeah. So it could have been the mhm. So um let's see. Did uh getting back to Doctor Ward's speech? Uh you say

00:36:22.850 - 00:36:43.590

it was uh mainly attack on Masterson? Do you recall uh what points he brought out? Uh What do you remember what he said about him? It was that accounted for his reasons for being against him? Did he talk against him as an administrator or say he

00:36:43.600 - 00:36:59.290

was an evil man or? Uh I really don't. I only remember the impression I got from it. And then I remember at the end, I think he was the one that said something about um will this university always be poised on the threshold of greatness instead

00:36:59.300 - 00:37:17.239

of, you know, kid it? That's, that's all those are the speeches that stuck out in my mind. But I don't really remember what anybody said. So then we had our march and it was quite early and we walked down there and it was confusion when we

00:37:17.250 - 00:37:40.229

got there, people were just kind of talking there. There was a, there was, there was, yeah, there was a cluster of students that gathered around, I think it was Doctor Ward and Deb Bremer. I'm not sure who was dreicer. I think so. Um Doctor uh grope.

00:37:41.959 - 00:38:11.149

See he had a, he made a very good point that I thought was gonna come up with it. Well, um oh he was, he was comparing, he was talking about the structure of the university and grove and how uh he said that if the board was

00:38:11.159 - 00:38:28.290

going to treat us like longshoremen, then we should act like longshoremen, you know, in other words, strike instead of, instead of their, they're treating us as actual. And I mean, you said they were thinking of us, they were the employers and we were the employees and

00:38:28.300 - 00:38:43.300

as such, then we'd have to act that way if they, if they, we couldn't convince them any other way when, when you say convince him any, convince them any other way that we wanted to be other than employees or that because that the way they had

00:38:43.310 - 00:39:02.830

acted seemed to make us feel that that's the way they felt about us. Did you understand at this time that Doctor Grove was suggesting that that uh the students should strike if uh if what if the board didn't either, didn't agree to, to these proposals that

00:39:02.840 - 00:39:21.689

had been passed like reconsidering the decision and such. So, so the, the the object was to get the board to reconsider the appointment. This was, this was just informal talking. We waited and we finally master came and it was a very disappointed meeting. I felt at

00:39:21.699 - 00:39:39.909

that time that if Masterson had been smart, so to speak, he could have saved himself because there were enough people who were still just concentrating on the procedural method and personal matters were not being brought in as much. And they were open to being able, especially

00:39:39.919 - 00:39:59.750

the younger ones are open to, to trying to, to judge him from what they saw him at this time. And quite frankly, I'd say he really goofed when he said that he didn't see any, uh, any, um, overwhelming reaction to his being uh appointed when here

00:39:59.760 - 00:40:14.770

we were all standing here. Have you counted that statement on his part? Well, it could be just the way that we interpreted it because even though we were standing there, we applauded when he came out. I mean, he might have expected that we were, we had

00:40:14.780 - 00:40:30.550

gathered there just to just to welcome him. I didn't really think of that at the time, but I did later. But that statement that he made was used against him very much the next few days about how many students were there by this time. Uh There

00:40:30.560 - 00:40:44.449

were about 1000 or so in the gym according to the vote, I would say there was about half that number. Then I'm not sure, maybe not even that many because a lot of them had gone back to lunch with him. He came out uh if you

00:40:44.459 - 00:41:04.199

can cast your mind back to how that scene looked. Uh And where you were standing from where you were standing. Could you could you get the idea that um that from where he was standing it, it might look like a welcoming committee. Our we our students

00:41:04.209 - 00:41:27.050

welcoming him and that maybe the hostile questions are only coming from one or two or three individuals within the crowd. Was there anything going on that could have s, you know, supported that illusion. Uh, I think, I don't, oh, golly, I think they made one sign

00:41:27.739 - 00:41:44.419

and I can't remember what it said. Just one big sign, but I don't think it related to him specifically, as I recall from the newspapers, the sign said, faculty and students united. Yeah. Right. Do you know whether he could have seen that sign? I'm not sure

00:41:44.429 - 00:41:56.459

if it was visible to him. They were holding it, boys who were carrying it, held it in front of the group and we were back on the grass, but when he came out, we had all gone across the street and we were really standing right in

00:41:56.469 - 00:42:15.129

front of him on the sidewalk there in front of love it. And, uh, so, yeah, I, I think he maybe could have, could have construed as only a few people were opposed. The ones who spoke out. Except that when Warren read that statement to him, I,

00:42:15.139 - 00:42:33.830

I think he didn't really know how to react. Then, when did Warren read the statement to him before he began speaking or at the end? Or was he made the statement before Warren read that? Right. It's just that there had been people calling him a lot

00:42:33.840 - 00:42:47.030

about this the day before. And so I don't know, maybe he just didn't believe that it was really that strong who was supposed to have called him the day before. I don't know who I knew some of the people who were over in the thresher office

00:42:47.040 - 00:43:02.110

in the S A office Friday night. Do you know what they ever got through to him or not? I believe so. Um Someone said they had talked to him. Uh, let me ask you, I understand that that there were one or two or maybe more students

00:43:02.120 - 00:43:20.520

going around with. Um, welcome Masterson. Uh I'm not sure how big signs or how small did you see anyone like this? I didn't see any signs. I remember a few individuals who like Paul and for one of the girls in my college, she dates some of

00:43:20.530 - 00:43:37.689

the boys who live there for him, for him too. Were they carrying around anything that he might have seen, been able to see and read? I really don't remember because I don't remember seeing anything. Mhm. Yeah. So anyway, he, he made this statement before Warren read

00:43:37.699 - 00:43:53.090

this statement. So then Warren read the resolution of the, of the morning's action of the 951 to 7 or whatever it was. And then as I recall the meeting was, didn't I mean, he didn't say much more. He said something about he was going to be

00:43:53.100 - 00:44:17.639

meeting with people later on that day. But you know, like you said much about, do you recall how he reacted to Warren's statement? I really don't or what he looked like? Uh, he looked a bit harried most of the time, actually, just kind of tired. Um,

00:44:17.780 - 00:44:40.850

I felt like you didn't really know what to do and how did this impress you? Well, I wasn't too understanding in that. I felt he should have known what was there? That wasn't. So, um, have you ever seen a human being under, under attack in a

00:44:40.860 - 00:44:59.570

situation like this before? I was wondering if you had formed any impressions under how they, you know, certain standards of behavior. They should. I remember my freshman year, Doctor Vandever was, was Master of Brown and we had that big, a big hassle about change in our

00:44:59.580 - 00:45:22.250

liver rule. And he resigned because we wanted to change the rule and he didn't, but he never Masterson sort of seem to give the indication that he was bothered. Vandever seemed more sure of himself the whole time when, when he, uh did this, even though it

00:45:22.260 - 00:45:40.889

disappeared, this, uh, this event that happened with Van De Rebecca Brown. When was that, was this your freshman year? Also in the spring? Was there any liquor policy in the room at all before that? So this was whether to introduce liquor at all into the rooms

00:45:41.040 - 00:45:55.500

at around because the men's colleges all had the, didn't the men's, do you recall how long the men's colleges that had? No, I didn't, I didn't know I didn't. I knew they changed their rules as soon as the, the university had changed their policy and I

00:45:55.510 - 00:46:09.590

wasn't sure I knew it occurred before I came. I didn't think it was very long. What, what did you understand? Doctor Vander's reason was being for, uh, did you think he had a double standard toward men and women or just against them both? Yes, he did.

00:46:09.600 - 00:46:26.520

I remember very clearly one statement in his speech about, about, um, there are just some things that ladies don't do if they wish to be ladies and drinking is one open door in the privacy of your own heart. How did that, how did you react to

00:46:26.530 - 00:46:50.419

that? I thought it was silly in your mind. Have you ever associated Mattson with Vandever? As I knew that in this instance that Vandever was pro Masterson very definitely and that the history department was split because of it. And since Van, who was the chairman, did

00:46:50.429 - 00:47:13.010

you associate Masterson's selection at any time with, with liquor policy as a as a, did you know what his policy might be on the that I just, I just uh sort of consider them both in the same context of, of being well, sort of um conservative

00:47:13.030 - 00:47:37.169

historically speaking and they, but Van were in particular uh is very conscious of leadership type qualities and how leader should act in this kind of thing. And I think Masterson, I feel that Masterson is sort of agree. So getting back to this uh Masterson uh meeting

00:47:37.179 - 00:47:53.669

at 12 noon, how soon after that. Did you, uh, find out that, uh, the student leaders would be, uh, concurring with you? Oh. I heard that earlier. I heard that, um, at the teach, um, and I was telling some of the others but I didn't think

00:47:53.679 - 00:48:10.629

it hurt it. Um, while, while we were milling around before Masterson came out and I remember Warren coming up and grabbing me and saying, I don't want anybody but the people who were supposed to come. No, because they were afraid the SDS would come, people would

00:48:10.639 - 00:48:34.080

do something. Did. Uh Was there any discussion among among the the student leaders about how they should approach this thing or what, what they were after that afternoon before he came, we talked about it some before because he was one. And uh we agreed that we

00:48:34.090 - 00:48:49.719

had to convince him how much we really cared about the university. We felt that he really should resign and we wanted to convince him why we thought that, that we thought that because we cared so much about the university and how we didn't see how it

00:48:49.729 - 00:49:08.479

was going to function very well if he was there, particularly in view of the faculty sentiment about the appointment. So that was gonna be the major approach when he came. See, there were no faculty members at this meeting. Uh This was the college president, the S

00:49:08.489 - 00:49:40.610

A president and vice President, Barry and Greg, two members of the faculty the graduate assistant Dean M LE the Development Office and Master. How did the meeting start? Uh uh did, did anyone give the impression of presiding or, or did, uh you know, how did, how

00:49:40.620 - 00:49:58.909

did anyone say Barry did the main thrust of it? But it started with masters himself. He uh he did a kind of social, social kind of chatter at first about how he was glad to be there and such And he was kind of tired at the

00:49:58.919 - 00:50:26.389

moment and this kind of thing. And, um, then Warren again, which, um, explaining our position that we had decided first. And so then, um, Doctor Masterson really talked most of the time, I could understand how he felt. He was worried about his position, so to speak

00:50:26.399 - 00:50:44.540

his job, his future. He, I, you could tell he would really like being president of Rice. I think many people would. And, um, we didn't really like his statement about his daughter's social standing in Chattanooga. And I think that was important. But, but the rest of

00:50:44.550 - 00:51:01.689

it, I, I felt, I felt sympathy for him and I could see why this is a very difficult position he was in. What defense did he did? He use, of course, what defense did he use to in response to Warren's statement? He should resign. He used

00:51:01.699 - 00:51:16.149

to the main defense he used was the board wouldn't accept. He said the board wouldn't let him, they wouldn't let him out they wanted him and they weren't gonna change and then he brought his, his own personal feelings about it, you know, that it would hurt

00:51:16.159 - 00:51:41.989

him personally. Did you get the impression from his response that when war, when he was thinking about resigning, he was thinking about doing just a, uh, a, um, a sort of a, uh, a gesture to resign. And then, um, uh, or, or what did you get

00:51:42.000 - 00:52:02.979

the impression that when he was talking about resigning, he was talking about permanently resigning Masterson? Uh Well, I felt that he felt like it was permanent in the sense of that it would be redone the way it was supposed to be done. And in that case,

00:52:02.989 - 00:52:18.129

it might be permanent forever and it might not. But, and I felt that was why he was reluctant. I mean, if it was just a gesture, I felt he might do it. But you, you, from his response, you got the idea that he interpreted Warren's suggestion

00:52:18.659 - 00:52:35.530

as uh being that he should resign and then let the board select a president through the regular procedure in which he may or may not be selected the second time around. And this is the way that way, but that's, but he wouldn't have it that way

00:52:35.679 - 00:52:57.270

because he started suggesting alternatives. What the main alternative he suggested was for him to talk to the faculty students uh advisory selection committee. And um, but he wasn't clear as to what the outcome of that might be as to whether he would let them decide whether

00:52:57.280 - 00:53:11.070

or not, you know, that he could be president or, or what he was not clear on that. Did you get the idea that he might be willing, willing to talk to them to discuss his views on the university and maybe sell them on the idea that

00:53:11.080 - 00:53:23.669

he would be all right, as a president. Yeah, that's what he told us he was going to do. He said he was going to talk to the committee and let them hear his ideas about what the university was gonna be, but not anything about qualifications and

00:53:23.679 - 00:53:49.149

such, rather what his ideas do would be. And so at the time, so that's why at first we wouldn't agree to something like that because we didn't see any way of, of, of, I mean, that just was not, was not making up for the procedural error

00:53:49.159 - 00:54:07.600

at all. I mean, in, in that case, he was just kind of getting the committee to rubber stamp it afterwards and it was too late for that. So, but it just, I don't, it was just kind of hashed around for a while some more. Lee has

00:54:07.610 - 00:54:25.520

to bother me. What did he do? He just, well, but mostly because he was trying to get us to see different points of view as far as Masterton was concerned, I can't really blame him for it but, but I didn't feel that they were very relevant.

00:54:26.100 - 00:54:41.479

What, what was he trying to put across, uh, in the way of ideas that he wanted you to agree to? Just to say that I don't remember too much in the first half of the meeting. But in the meeting later on that night, I remember he

00:54:41.489 - 00:54:59.439

was comparing the situation to something that had happened in some school in Chicago. I believe it was that he had attended And um they didn't like some, some selection either. And there was some sort of protest but it didn't get anywhere. And we got the idea,

00:54:59.449 - 00:55:17.879

he was trying to get Stella on the idea of just trying to work with this man and not worry about it. So did uh from this whole meeting, uh was there very much discussion about uh the fact that you all felt that he could not be

00:55:17.889 - 00:55:37.459

an effective president for the reason that there was a lot of hostility against him, that was what people were hesitant to let him know was how much hostility there really was because we knew that would hurt him. And um that was why we finally decided in

00:55:37.469 - 00:55:54.449

the second meeting. It would be ok for him to talk to the student faculty committee because we wanted him to talk to some faculty members, other than those who was close friends who were probably telling him to bear with him. Because we, we really, there was

00:55:54.459 - 00:56:07.770

a little bit of discussion about it and his reaction to it was only that, well, in, in a, when a man has many roles and such, you can only expect him to have some enemies and we didn't know how to convey to him. I mean, I

00:56:07.780 - 00:56:24.979

just saying that there's a lot of hostility wasn't, didn't seem enough to convince him, which was why, I mean, he said he could imagine some people he knew he had some personal, some very personal enemies. He could imagine them stirring up a lot of people. But

00:56:24.989 - 00:56:38.810

he couldn't, he couldn't seem to imagine anything else. And that's why we wanted to talk to faculty members. So that meeting was, I felt, I really did feel sorry for him at the end of that meeting because he was so tired and he finally, he finally

00:56:38.820 - 00:56:56.879

just blew up and said he had to, had to leave, blew up a honey. I mean, he, well, it was, it was a funny meeting, the one that started at 10 because we all came in. We were upset. We, we felt each of us independently. We

00:56:56.889 - 00:57:14.669

kind of done different things. In the meantime, we came back feeling and we didn't trust him because he just kept proposing these things that we didn't see were gonna, um, solve the matter at all. What, what the, what, what would have been, what would it have

00:57:14.679 - 00:57:31.889

taken to solve the matter in, in the opinion of the opinion of us was for him to resign and for the procedure to go on as it should have. How do you think on the basis of your, uh, observing him for this, what, two hour period

00:57:31.899 - 00:57:51.969

before dinner? Uh, you were there three years? 230 to 6 or five and six? Yeah. How do you suppose this looked to him? I frankly think he was surprised because he'd worked with student leaders before, especially in Hanson and stuff. And I got the feeling that

00:57:51.979 - 00:58:06.239

he had usually been able to win them over to his point of view. And I think he really was surprised because I felt like in the morning, the meeting earlier that morning when he had spoken to us that he kind of thoughts talking to the student

00:58:06.250 - 00:58:25.000

leaders as a way out. I mean, that they would probably agree to what you want or you want it looking back on it. Now, do you think that, um, do you think it was wise or unwise to refuse to discuss, uh, the personal hostility to him?

00:58:26.939 - 00:58:44.989

I think maybe we probably should have tried to drive it home more. Uh We just kind of didn't know how kind of get back to this problem of how this must have looked to him. Um, is it possible that, that he could have looked at this

00:58:45.000 - 00:59:03.760

as just a big four roar over procedure? But after all, you had a marvelous president. So what, you know, what's the big problem? Right. I could, I could see that he would feel that way, it could interpret it that way. And, um, so that the, the,

00:59:03.770 - 00:59:23.340

the real issue didn't become evident until some time later. Um, well, not to him, I don't think it did. No, but you felt like it was pretty clear in the minds of the, of all of you that, that resignation was the only thing that would really

00:59:23.350 - 00:59:43.620

solve the problem in that sense. We were very unflinching and I would say, not very open to suggestions so that, but we did, he blew up him and he got really very mad at our second meeting because, ok, we, we had gotten together and we sort

00:59:43.629 - 00:59:58.510

of build up a certain amount of hostility in ourselves with this kind of predis discussion that we went through of how we didn't trust him and stuff. And then he came in and Barry mentioned something about letting the committee decide on his qualifications and, and then

00:59:58.520 - 01:00:12.399

we asked him to leave so we could discuss some more and then he came back and it was really mad because he didn't think his qualifications should be discussed at all. And he thought we were being very rude and all this. And um so he said,

01:00:12.939 - 01:00:27.530

and so he said he was, he was going to leave and he wasn't going to meet with anybody and he would just leave and let us let us decide ourselves. We could just work out this matter ourselves with him gone. And he'd come back someday. Well,

01:00:28.679 - 01:00:43.830

then people tried to appease him and then, and he calmed down and he said, well, he was awfully tired and he said, well, he, he would meet with the student faculty committee the next day. Yeah, he did say that he would. And we, we were pleased

01:00:43.840 - 01:00:57.100

with that because we thought that since we couldn't make it clear to him that there were, there was a lot of hostility throughout the faculty and it wasn't just personal enemies that, that talking to this committee might make it clear to him with some faculty members

01:00:57.110 - 01:01:18.820

there. Mhm. Did he, I guess he knew who was on the faculty advisory committee, didn't he, did he make any comment about his personal relations with any of them? No. Did he suggest that that committee might be friendly or hostile to him? No, Barry suggested she,

01:01:18.830 - 01:01:34.870

she suggested as to which ones she thought he would think were on his side and stuff and he was probably mentally figuring out the boat if he, um, if, if the committee really was signed that he, he wasn't sure about the students and it was only

01:01:34.879 - 01:01:48.080

in this meeting that he can tell. I mean, we, we really did get the feeling that he was mostly directing his comments to the three students on the committee. That is your Forest Stone Greg White and Barry cat. And he was kind of trying to feel

01:01:48.090 - 01:02:01.800

them out. I just want, when Mary said that, uh, do you recall who she said would be on the committee? Who would vote for? She didn't say who she, she, she just said numbers that there would be so many who would vote for him. So, I

01:02:01.810 - 01:02:24.239

guess Castaneda was on that committee for. No, I don't think, no, he's not on the committee. Um, but she, she got it down to numbers where he probably figured that she thought he figured that George Forestall was on his side and that made that split the

01:02:24.250 - 01:02:37.510

vote right there and he wasn't quite sure about Greg and Barry. So she, she felt like a part of his birth style was against her because she is the one who had said that about his qualifications and stuff, being discussing the committee. So she felt that

01:02:37.520 - 01:02:58.300

maybe at that point he had decided she would be against him and that blew up. Mhm. So, um, so he then left after he did say he would meet with us the next day. So the next day we had this real hurried meeting and surprise surprise.

01:02:58.310 - 01:03:13.629

He had left. When did you get back together? Uh, was it, it was around noon? It was a little before noon, 11 or so. So the time you gathered together, you already knew that he had left or did you not do it? We knew it as

01:03:13.639 - 01:03:33.530

we were going over there a couple of people knew it and they told us and we just sit there uh shock. So, so at this meeting, we hurriedly wrote our statement and we did think that it was, it was important to, to change the issue at

01:03:33.540 - 01:03:55.750

that time to switch the emphasis to her. The individual also, was there pretty general agreement on this or did there have to be a little discussion and a little persuasion first, there really was agreement. So um and, and I remember faculty members came over just as

01:03:55.760 - 01:04:17.699

we finished and one of them read it and said, why this is such a pleasure to work with rice students? This is so ingenious because here it's brilliantly switched the issue. But anyway, so we remember who said that uh doctor. So we, I went ahead, issued

01:04:17.709 - 01:04:41.270

our statement and then we had another meeting after lunch, we issued a statement in the colleges and um we had this meeting. Um there were, we told people it was funny, we all told people and oncologist to expect another meeting that night, even though we weren't

01:04:41.280 - 01:04:56.209

sure if it was gonna be one or not, but it turned out there were more. So we went to this um meeting after lunch, there was a TV interview at the time. We were all standing there and they were asking more on some questions. I don't

01:04:56.219 - 01:05:12.969

remember exactly what I said there in this. I thought it was good. I think it was good. So, uh, was this by one of the local stations? Uh, oh, TV. That's right. You don't have a student TV? It's a student radio. You've got it. I don't

01:05:12.979 - 01:05:36.689

remember which one. I think. So, this meeting after lunch was just, uh, student leaders, the same group of presidents, plus college presidents, plus S A and we, Warren told us that the, oh, Doctor Adams chair of the geology department talked to us and said that they

01:05:36.699 - 01:06:01.379

told us about how the geology department had gotten together that morning. And, um, they were all opposed to Masterson's staying and, uh, he, they hadn't decided on a specific action, but they sort of encouraged us to keep on. So, uh, I mean, they, their, their main,

01:06:01.389 - 01:06:13.580

I think the main thing they decided was to keep discussion up in all the departments and get, and get to the departments and see how they really felt. When you say geology department. Does this involve very many faculty or is this a sort of a small

01:06:13.590 - 01:06:41.090

department? Oh, I would say there's about 10. So it's a pretty sizeable number of? Ok. So, um, then, um, at that meeting we just decided to meet again early in the evening to discuss what was gonna happen at a meeting that Warren was going to with,

01:06:41.100 - 01:07:01.129

uh, Dean Gordon and some, um, department chairman and they were gonna decide something that day. I mean, we were, we were waiting for direction from the faculty at that point. So we weren't sure what to do. So, um we all went back and carry on individual

01:07:01.139 - 01:07:19.350

activities in colleges. Did any other faculty members uh uh meet with you and speak with you during this uh during this meeting where Doctor Adams spoke. Did you have any word of any other faculty organization ever being? Then we knew that the masters had met in

01:07:19.360 - 01:07:39.159

the morning, but they had, they had come up with an action, were telling us what it was going to be. So, excuse me, that was all I knew. Were you familiar with any other uh efforts? Uh Just jealousy department and the college masters Geology hadn't decided

01:07:39.169 - 01:07:56.340

on an action and the masters had but weren't talking right. So, so we thought this would be interesting to see what would happen at this meeting with Dean Gordon and department chairman, see what would happen there. So, um incidentally right after this meeting that we had

01:07:56.350 - 01:08:11.040

that afternoon, we went over to an SDS meeting and Warren impressed him with how they needed to stay down and things were being handled. All right. And so he, he spoke very well. I remember being very impressed by how he spoke and that terrible about not

01:08:11.050 - 01:08:25.549

remembering what they say in speeches. Anyway. Did you get, did you get the idea that there might be some danger that the sds sds would try to launch a more? I really wasn't worried about them at this point because I remembered in the first student meeting

01:08:25.560 - 01:08:39.799

afterwards, some of them talking about, I mean, that student meeting at Friday talking about how they were, they were so pleased because it was like their predictions come true. You know, look, this is, we told you this is the kind of thing that's gonna happen and

01:08:39.810 - 01:08:53.959

look how corrupt the board is and such like this. And they were, they were just kind of feeling good and, and they didn't think they, they didn't see that they needed to do anything yet. At that point, we were only afraid of, I was only afraid

01:08:53.970 - 01:09:13.579

of reaction from them if this thing became very prolonged, save some kind of resolution did not come through soon. I could see them things about how many do you associate in your mind with this movement? The sts about how many people, um, actual hard core members

01:09:13.588 - 01:09:33.799

I associated but between 2030 but they can rally up to, I think about 100 people's support I would say. And even more than that on just a sort of liberal issue. Much more so. Um, it was good anyway, that Warren kind of, he kind of calmed

01:09:33.810 - 01:09:55.189

him down and encouraged him at the same time as me. So we, um, then went back to the colleges and prepared for the meetings that evening, uh, at our meeting with Warren for the college meetings. Um, he explained that at this meeting with Dean Gordon and

01:09:55.270 - 01:10:13.910

the, uh, department chairman that it was just that they had decided to take this vote on Monday morning, they had decided to take a vote of the whole student body and departments. Had, they worded the ballot during this meeting or is this yet to come? They,

01:10:13.919 - 01:10:33.180

they worded the ballot at that meeting, whether we were supposed to vote on whether or not we, uh, agreed to the, accepted the procedure and, and agreed to the choice, the actual choice. So, so it was a two stage. So um our objective then in the

01:10:33.189 - 01:10:50.890

college meetings that night was to explain what had gone on in the meetings so far because most of the students, of course, hadn't been involved after the, the noon meeting on Saturday and they were anxious to know what was going on. And then we also explained

01:10:50.899 - 01:11:09.759

that this balloting that was gonna go on the next day and we invited the faculty members, there were many faculty members in all these meetings. Pretty interesting, Mary did, um what was the reaction? Uh Maybe you didn't do this until the evening meeting, but what was

01:11:09.770 - 01:11:24.259

the reaction to the essay uh of the, of the statement that the leaders had come out with about noon that day? You know, the, the statement that said, uh as a result of all these, we find uh Doctor Masterson unacceptable. Did you, did you happen to

01:11:24.270 - 01:11:38.109

read that at the dinner? Meeting? Yeah. Yeah. And some people asked me about it afterwards and I tried to explain as well as I could. So mainly I explained this, this agreement that he had made with us before he left and that he had walked out

01:11:38.120 - 01:12:03.689

the next that day and we, we really did feel like it was pretty bad. Did you form any impression of the student reaction to they, they seem, they seem to be behind it. They were not opposed. I didn't get negative reactions. So um at my college

01:12:03.700 - 01:12:20.229

meeting that night, I tried to explain as well as I could as I could, what had gone on in our meetings with masters and the day before? And what points did you, did you bring out in those meetings at the time? I think I made it

01:12:20.240 - 01:12:37.310

too, too detailed for a lot of them to understand exactly what I was trying to ring out. And uh it did create a bit of a problem with our meeting later on. But um OK, I mainly at that time too, I mainly wanted to emphasize about

01:12:37.319 - 01:12:57.990

the agreement that we had made about his agreement to talk later with the faculty committee and then he left town. So uh did anyone else speak at this meeting? No, after that, there was a doctor Margrave got up and wanted to know why we were voting

01:12:58.160 - 01:13:15.049

on whether or not to accept the choice. He didn't think that people should be able to do that. He's chairman of the chemistry department. Is he one of your associates or he is, he's not master. He's no, he's an associate. Dr Rogers is our associate. He's

01:13:15.060 - 01:13:37.370

in geology. So, um I remembered that I had asked Warren who had been in his meeting and Doctor Margaret wasn't one of them. So he didn't understand the reasons why we were um voting against the choice at that time. They thought what he thought was that,

01:13:37.379 - 01:13:54.520

that the ballot should be similar to the resolution that the faculty had made on Friday about reconsidering uh reconsidering the choice instead of instead of we disapprove of the choice. And uh many of the college members felt the same way and that was when we sort

01:13:54.529 - 01:14:09.169

of had a problem because there was a discussion. Oh dear, can we change the ballot just for Brown or can we, what shall we do? And Margrave kind of set the tone with his questioning of it at the beginning. And I was very surprised because I

01:14:09.180 - 01:14:27.959

expected some sort of violent reactions from people like Doctor Ward who was an associate and he didn't because he could see why Doctor Margaret might feel that way. And I, I was, I didn't know how to make it clear then why the how um even though

01:14:27.970 - 01:14:45.240

they didn't know him personally, they could vote on, they could still, after our explaining what had been going on, could, could vote on whether or not. They thought he could function at the university and how, how the situation would be here if he came. So, um

01:14:46.049 - 01:14:58.930

one of the girls, one of the sophomores got upset because she thought too many people wouldn't understand. She went over and she told all these, the whole press, she'd go into the meetings and tell them real urgently. Brown's in trouble. Come running over and I was

01:14:58.939 - 01:15:16.839

so upset because all these people came running over and they started, they, they had been told that Brown was abstaining from the whole ballot and we weren't, there had been some, there had been a suggestion that perhaps people who didn't want to vote for the against

01:15:16.850 - 01:15:30.160

him, you know, could just staying on that one issue and I didn't really think a whole lot of people would do that anyway. So I wasn't really worried about it, but she had gone over telling them Brown's abstaining. So all these people came over here with

01:15:30.169 - 01:15:45.589

these speeches about how we couldn't abstain and we were going to ruin the whole thing if we didn't make a united effort in this, who all came over at this point. Oh, Barry was the first one to go there and she really made people mad because

01:15:45.600 - 01:16:01.109

she um she started talking about Masterson as a *** hater and this kind of thing. And it was, it was really very emotional and, and not to the point, did she have any evidence for this or, or was he just name calling? She was kind of

01:16:01.120 - 01:16:17.640

name calling and she mentioned that bit about the, uh, he has been worrying about his daughter's social position. And, uh, so that, that didn't go over too well, but then some of the other speakers did make new points was Warren at the Brown meeting before, um,

01:16:17.649 - 01:16:33.560

Barry got there, Warren? No, Warren didn't come away at the end. Oh, I, I misunderstood. Uh so Barry was the first one to arrive and then who came next? Oh, gee, I don't know who, I don't know who came next. There were several presidents there. Um

01:16:33.660 - 01:16:52.529

Tom said something and Jim body said something and Mike said something. Um were any faculty members? Uh did any faculty members come in? Doctor Gro came and that was one thing why, why it was difficult to get the whole group to understand because there weren't any

01:16:52.540 - 01:17:14.520

really firebrand faculty members at our meeting. And um I'm not a fire brad. But anyway, um Doctor Grove helped them to see um how they couldn't vote against the choice. How did he explain it? Um Just, just that way, the, the, the events that had gone

01:17:14.529 - 01:17:27.049

on the amount of faculty see what I wanted to do was be able to say, look at all these faculty who are opposed to his being here and the faculty that my meeting weren't reacting that way. And so it was hard for me to explain it

01:17:27.060 - 01:17:45.830

otherwise as being an impossible situation and such. And uh uh Grove brought in it when people like Grove and other faculty members, I don't remember who else said, something started saying things like that. Then more of the people understood and about how many were at your

01:17:45.839 - 01:18:02.430

meeting, uh, during this, during this 100 the commons was completely filled and it holds over 200 then there were people standing around. You were, you were chairing this meeting? Did you find it very difficult to keep order? Did people sort of obey the rules of, uh,

01:18:02.439 - 01:18:16.109

who can, who should speak next and wait for recognition from the chair and so forth or what? I didn't have trouble keeping order, but I was upset with how some people didn't, weren't making sense. Like at one point in our meeting, we had, we had finished,

01:18:16.120 - 01:18:29.165

I, I said, ok, enough of this discussion of the ballot. If you, if you don't want to vote against this choice, you can't abstain. And that's what most of the people agreed on. And I said, so let's go on to another matter. And so some other

01:18:29.174 - 01:18:44.899

girl got up and said, said something else. I don't even remember exactly what but some other matter. And then another girl got up and said, you know, I think we got to change the subject because it's too long. And I just felt like I was really

01:18:44.910 - 01:19:03.109

sort of bothered, you know, there was a lot of, sort of irrationality going on anyway. Um, uh, this meeting lasted about 2.5 hours and these people kept speaking and it wasn't clear to me until after several of them had spoken that they had heard something that

01:19:03.120 - 01:19:16.689

wasn't really true about what was going on. I mean, I knew I was having trouble explaining about this one. Abstention bit. I mean, it's one part of the ballot but it wasn't clear until more of them spoke that they prayed we were abstaining entirely more of

01:19:16.700 - 01:19:33.890

these visitors. You mean it came over at the, uh, I see. And, um, it, I felt after it all happened, I felt ok, this, this, it was all right because several of the people and the girls in the college told me after that they really understood

01:19:33.899 - 01:19:52.080

at the end they understood why they shouldn't vote the way they did, you know, vote against on both issues in this. Whereas up to that point, up until a lot of people came in, they, they didn't understand exactly. So, I, I felt bad that I hadn't

01:19:52.089 - 01:20:15.759

been able to make them understand and yet I felt good at the end that, that they did understand. And, um, I was just emotionally exhausted after me. I just collapsed anyway. So, um, the next day we just had this book and of course, the results were

01:20:15.770 - 01:20:32.919

never released to, to us. What was your reaction to that? I thought that that was good. I, I thought that the, um, we had to give the board time to react and that people shouldn't go around spouting out these things. It certainly shouldn't get in the

01:20:32.930 - 01:20:52.100

newspapers before the board heard it, what the vote was or anything like that. And, uh, at that and it seemed kind of a personal thing. The second boat, especially. What were you, what were you hoping that the vote would, um, would accomplish? Uh, I was hoping

01:20:52.109 - 01:21:15.209

that it would show that it would show how much actual feeling there was against his coming there both for, for both reasons. And, uh, I wanted both the board to know that and Masterson, I, they had planned to let Masterson know too and, uh, then I

01:21:15.220 - 01:21:34.919

wasn't sure what would happen, but I, I didn't think he would really wanna come if you knew that much, there was that much with him. And then so you're hoping that it really would re um, yeah. So, um, at a meeting we had Tuesday morning, Barry

01:21:34.930 - 01:21:51.569

was all upset again because she said, oh, we have to keep doing things and we have to keep people busy and getting disinterested and all this kind of stuff and no, just we can wait. I thought so. Uh, they went, we waited the rest of that

01:21:51.580 - 01:22:06.319

day, Barry went ahead and tried to start a committee of, of faculty wives and get some girls involved in making sure that all the statements that were coming out of the media were correct. I mean, immediately letting various media know was what they were saying was

01:22:06.330 - 01:22:27.899

not correct. And this kind of thing, which is a good thing, especially if it was gonna be prolonged. So, um, hm, the rest of the day was not really that eventful. Um, I remember were classes back to normal or, or were you? Some and some were,

01:22:27.910 - 01:22:45.899

and I didn't have, I don't have classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So I, uh I don't remember, I think I just kind of rested that day. I was tired and then there was a meeting called for that afternoon at five with Dean Gordon and department chairman

01:22:45.910 - 01:23:07.589

and Masters and Presidents and S A officer and student members of the committee and department chairman, uh Dean Gordon Masters of the colleges, presidents of the college S A officers and the members of the faculty advisory committee. Ok, at this meeting. And I guess we were

01:23:07.600 - 01:23:22.830

probably going to decide what to do next then. But before then it was just before then the, and that was what came out that mattress and had resigned. Did you hear it before you went over to the meeting? Was right before I heard it on. What

01:23:22.870 - 01:23:40.459

was your reaction? I was, I was relieved. I was, I was very happy at the time, partly because I was glad this wasn't gonna go on anymore. Um, but I soon began to feel sorry for Doctor Masterson too. I mean, I can understand how hard it

01:23:40.470 - 01:23:58.839

would have been for him to. And after it was all over, I finally decided that what really made him change his mind was partly the vote. But also people like, I believe Doctor Fulton and I don't know who all else who were good friends of his,

01:23:59.279 - 01:24:20.060

talking to him and convincing him that, that he probably shouldn't continue as president. I think that's what probably really clinched it. This with some people like that, that he trusted, trying to convey this to him. Looking back on this uh event for four days, Mary, what

01:24:20.069 - 01:24:42.529

um what did you learn from this um political action experience? What did I learn? Um Personally, I think I learned the hard way how to conduct a meeting. Uh What, what came out of this thing that you, you think will stay with you forever? I mean,

01:24:43.609 - 01:24:56.500

I, I was too concerned with trying to let them know everything that happened and I should have tried to crystallize it more ahead of time and, and maybe even talk to more of the, of the faculty members that I knew were going to be there like

01:24:56.509 - 01:25:13.990

our associates and stuff ahead of time to speak with how they really did feel. So that if I wanted to use that in an argument, I could and this kind of thing. So another words in me, are you saying then that, um that in situations like

01:25:14.000 - 01:25:32.669

this can be used to mobilize opinion. Uh if you, uh if you prepare yourself and that to present a concise interpretation of a group of events works better than just recounting, recounting step by step, what happened and leaving them to make their own mind too much.

01:25:33.850 - 01:25:44.970

I mean, if you really want a whole group action, you kind of have to suggest to them really what it is they're supposed to conclude. And the purpose of the purpose of the meeting was group action. But you want action, you want them to vote on

01:25:44.979 - 01:25:58.189

the ballot and you were hoping to a certain way, my, my purpose was really just to make sure that they would vote a lot of times. They, they don't. And that's why I wasn't that concerned if they, some of them wanted to abstain on the second

01:25:58.200 - 01:26:19.669

choice because, um, I felt that if departments went ahead and voted against on the second choice that that would matter more than whether the students did. And so I wasn't, I wasn't that concerned about that particular point, although others seem to think I, to me. So,

01:26:19.709 - 01:26:38.950

uh, that, um, I mean, there's all, there's a certain amount of, of worry. So it was big in my mind of, of really wanting to control people's opinions because I really don't. And so for something like that, if you want to get a group action, you,

01:26:38.959 - 01:26:54.970

you kind of need to, but there's something about this, it seems to be a little bit, makes you a little bit hesitant to. Um, I, I felt that in a sense if you at least be quite definite in, in a, in a suggestion that it will

01:26:54.979 - 01:27:14.069

help you in that sense, it will even help people decide that that to just go along and recount events doesn't even give them enough to decide unless they maybe have one strong opinion to either react for or against. Maybe so, in other words, the role of

01:27:14.080 - 01:27:30.419

leader in something like this. If you're, if you want a group action, it, it would be to select the information you present and uh try to get a unified response. I mean, if, if you really feel deeply about it enough that you, they feel this unified

01:27:30.430 - 01:27:43.640

response is necessary. This is the in, in most, in most things that go on in the college. I mean, I, I don't want to control the pain. I'm just, I just wanted to find out what most of the people feel and then do it that way.

01:27:44.109 - 01:28:00.240

Um In this, in this case, I should have, I, I was committed that myself, I felt that definitely we should go forward with this and that people should vote against on both choices. And mainly that was because of the faculty that I had talked to that

01:28:00.250 - 01:28:15.109

I knew were opposed. And that was my own particular rallying point was the amount of faculty in opposition. And um that was why that was the main argument I wanted to use and I couldn't use it well enough. And some of the faculty were, there were

01:28:15.120 - 01:28:30.600

reacting. Were there any, were there any students who uh uh sort of jumped on the Margrave uh uh side of things after he raised this question? Yeah, there were, there were some of the students who fail but they didn't know enough to vote against him, but

01:28:30.640 - 01:28:45.490

it's the choice either for or against for that matter. And it was after this meeting that they changed the wording of the ballot to say something about circumstances. Yeah. Apparently some of the other colleges had a little bit of trouble. We and love it, I think,

01:28:46.890 - 01:29:07.140

had a little problem with emphasizing this too. And so they, they did decide to put that under the present circumstances to emphasize that that was what they were supposed to judge on. Did you have any impression about whether this change would, uh, uh add to the

01:29:07.149 - 01:29:20.910

vote or diminish it? I felt it would add. I really did. And in talking with some of the other presidents afterwards, I remember some of them saying they didn't really think that we should have worded it that way either. That was something we just haven't really

01:29:20.919 - 01:29:40.819

thought about before we went into our meetings that maybe that wording wasn't particularly good about the choice. What other things did you learn? From this, uh, from this experience overall. Well, I was, I was very pleased to see the reaction among students arise because I've always

01:29:40.830 - 01:30:04.100

felt that they were pretty and, and, um, it was the whole time it was, it was a very nice feeling of just kind of a communal feeling on this campus that I've never experienced here at all. And, um, it, a lot of my life at Rice

01:30:04.109 - 01:30:25.879

has not been really happy. I mean, I, I didn't really want to come here and I haven't adjusted exactly to, to its demands. And so that I, I, um, was at that time really for one time, really happy that I was here. What, uh, what was

01:30:25.890 - 01:30:41.779

it you were looking for in a university that you haven't found at Rose? Um, I really wasn't that, uh, that definite on what I wanted when I came. And I, and I, the reason I decided when I was here even not to transfer was that I

01:30:41.790 - 01:30:57.450

didn't feel I would be, that would be that much difficult for me to another university. That was mostly my own personal, not knowing what I wanted and having to find out and, and too often I'd blame it on rice instead of just on my own problem.

01:30:59.439 - 01:31:25.589

Um, but let's see, I, I remember being very, very happy when the situation was over and since then I've been very disappointed in the reactions of the board then herbs too. Have you ever lived in this part of the country before, or is this your first,

01:31:25.600 - 01:31:42.189

uh, you know, that was another thing I was unhappy when I came here was finding how many people were from Texas. I didn't know that, that, that there were these quotas and such and I expected more people from all over. Where all have you lived? Um,

01:31:42.200 - 01:31:58.970

I was born in Buff New York and lived there for four years in El Paso, Texas for fun. That's where I started. Milwaukee for Colorado Springs. We lived there for about five years and then we moved to Germany. I was there for two. Who were you

01:31:58.979 - 01:32:21.149

in Germany, uh, during these two years in Frankfurt. What age were you when you were in Germany? Uh, my last two years of high school, I was just in a dependent school. Actually, you have a pretty cosmopolitan background. Having lived all over again. I was, it

01:32:21.200 - 01:32:43.600

took me a while to get used to all the accent. Now, my sister teases me because she thinks I've picked up some of it. Is your sister, older or younger, older? Let's see. I, I'm sort of worried about the future here because I don't because we

01:32:43.609 - 01:33:03.689

were hoping, you know, from that experience that the board had learned what kinds of things were important to us and apparently they didn't. And, uh, I've heard little rumors and things since then. I mean, besides the things that stand out, like the premonition and stuff. Just

01:33:03.700 - 01:33:22.520

other things about the, the love it handles it. Perhaps he shouldn't. Mhm. Uh, besides the Freeman issue, what else was it? The, uh, well, there's been some discussion of, of some faculty termination of some faculty appointments, although I don't know a whole lot about that and

01:33:22.529 - 01:33:37.520

I remember hearing, even before the Masterson issue, the possibility of some of these faculty members not being able to come back. But I had heard it mainly on the basis. So they're not uh churning out enough research or writing or whatever, any particular faculty members come

01:33:37.529 - 01:34:09.240

up in this connection in this room, in connection with these rumors. Um Doctor Milburn and doctors, are, are you well acquainted with either of them? Not? Well, no. And I was disappointed that the board appointed Vanderburg as acting president and I was disappointed with the Freeman

01:34:09.250 - 01:34:29.899

issue. Has there been any attempt to uh interfere with the college liquor policy or anything of that sort? Uh or any other college? Uh I'm sure they never realizes he couldn't do something like that really? I mean, I don't, I don't um I think that any

01:34:29.910 - 01:34:46.180

of these people are bad and evil and horrible and all this kind of stuff. I just, they're just operating on different assumptions and I think they want different things. Perhaps if, if we really, if some student leaders and faculty could really talk to some of the

01:34:46.189 - 01:35:01.560

board members more, if there would just be more dialogue between them. Maybe we might come out with some common goals and some understanding. But as it is, there just isn't enough communication even. Have you ever had an opportunity to exchange words with any of the, any

01:35:01.569 - 01:35:26.040

of the members of the board? We had social occasions. Pitzer invited some board members over and the college presidents to his house last spring. And, uh, there wasn't as much time, there wasn't really a whole lot of time to talk to them. Yeah. And, and Pits

01:35:26.049 - 01:35:47.240

or was, it was, and then afterwards kids who just talked mostly about some things. And then, um, this year Dean Gordon had a, a little social occasion with us and the board over at Cone House and I was sitting, it was a dinner and I was

01:35:47.250 - 01:36:07.970

sitting with Beloveds Malcolm Lovett and Mrs Lovett. And my impression of Malcolm Love was not somebody. I mean, I felt like I, it would take a lot of real kind of persuasion or talking a long time to, for us to understand each other. He, he talked

01:36:07.979 - 01:36:20.169

about how he'd been in Europe but he didn't really like it. America was the best and stuff and didn't like communists and that was our biggest enemy and all this sort of thing. Students who don't know what they're doing should just do something and not worry

01:36:20.180 - 01:36:40.790

about it and then they can change when they're 30 or something, but just don't worry about it and all this, so maybe shy, but that's not the way people seem to feel. And I just, well, excuse me for this interruption. Uh, uh Mary, when you, uh,

01:36:41.729 - 01:37:02.709

when you just finished speaking, you mentioned two characteristics about, uh Mr Lovett that I'd like to, um, explore with you, you mentioned, um, oh, something that is frequently associated with, um, shall we call them southern conservatives? One of them is, is an attitude of pro Americanism

01:37:03.330 - 01:37:23.299

and the other is an attitude of anti communism. Um These uh I don't want to uh just limit our conversation just to these two characteristics. There may be another cluster or, or more ideas in this cluster that you want to talk about. But um in the,

01:37:23.310 - 01:37:43.319

in your attitudes and reactions to these characteristics, this cluster of ideas, do you think this comes from uh your education or from your family background or from having uh lived in a number of different places been exposed to a number of different uh styles of, of,

01:37:43.330 - 01:38:01.959

of life? Um I don't really know how to separate too much my family background from living in different places and such. I think that all has very, has really had the most effect in sensitizing me to these kind of issues and, and sort of maybe polarizing

01:38:01.970 - 01:38:26.370

me on them. But um that my education has sort of taught me how to articulate my feelings on these matters. And um bye comparing myself with, for example, my roommate and some of a few other people from this area, um, I can see where their background

01:38:26.379 - 01:38:45.149

has not sensitized them to the same issues. They feel the opposite has sensitized them oppositely. So that even if we were to take the same course, we probably would maybe come out with a different idea. Would I be correct in interpreting you to be saying that,

01:38:45.160 - 01:39:06.299

that, uh, your education has not produced in you a, um, a, a contradiction between what you now believe and what you believe to say when you were 12 or 13 years old. Um, you haven't gone through an adolescent rejection stage where you reject, uh, your, your

01:39:06.310 - 01:39:28.509

earlier assumptions and, um, the conflict has come more and just sort of, there's a conflict between some of my parents' ideas, just the two of them and where I've kind of swung back and forth between the two of them at times. And, uh, I've gone through

01:39:28.520 - 01:39:43.609

a very searching phase as far as religion and things go, which, which I would say I'm at a very different point than I was when I was 12 or 13. But, um, political issues, it's hard for me to say because I don't really remember being that

01:39:43.620 - 01:40:01.910

particularly politically conscious before I came to college and that's why I feel like I probably had feelings that, that if I had some opportunity to somehow know what they were at that time, I don't really think they would have been that different. Yeah, you mentioned earlier,

01:40:01.919 - 01:40:21.290

uh, before we started our interview that, um, uh, after you graduate, um, this next week you'd like to go into the teacher corps. Um, what is it that interests you in this kind of activity? Uh, I've always sort of wanted to teach, I feel that I

01:40:21.299 - 01:40:41.490

kind of like to teach younger Children rather than older ones and I couldn't really prepare for that at rice. Um, mainly it caught my interest when I was, uh, uh, two summers ago I worked in the Office of Education in Washington DC and it was coming

01:40:41.500 - 01:40:55.259

up before Congress at that time as to whether or not to appropriate more money for it and they rejected it. And there was this deep sense of disappointment in the Office of Education among most of the employees because they seem to think it's just a good

01:40:55.270 - 01:41:18.089

program and I had heard about it my sophomore year. I don't, I think I just read about it. I don't remember exactly. And it just seemed like a good thing because I do feel, um, that education is important for people in disadvantaged areas. And that II,

01:41:18.140 - 01:41:37.370

I tutored some, my sophomore year Children in, in the fifth ward here. And I could just see how their, the education, the kind of education they were receiving was not what I had received. And I feel that most, I really feel that most individual differences, so

01:41:37.379 - 01:41:59.149

to speak on intelligence are more um dependent on their background and part of their background is in educational sense than inherent ability and intelligence, et cetera. And I would like to be able to help in this area. I think it's very important in your tutoring experience.

01:41:59.160 - 01:42:18.169

Were you um uh were you able to get uh um very gratifying results? And uh and the length of time you worked with any one individual student or did you form an opinion that, that this is a project which needs to, to continue through the child's

01:42:18.180 - 01:42:37.089

entire? Yeah, I felt that, that a limited exposure, so to speak is really not enough. And, um, the thing that's gonna worry me in the teacher car. I know is having so many of them and, and I know I, I'm aware of that sort of frustration

01:42:37.970 - 01:42:53.169

but I think that if perhaps if more people would just join a program like that, then maybe there, this would be a continuing thing instead of they'd get it now and then when somebody happened to be there and what I remember most about the Children was

01:42:53.180 - 01:43:12.379

some of their own comments on their teachers and things and how, um, one girl that was in the fifth grade and actually she was a fairly good student. I mean, she could learn, she hated history, she despised history and, and I couldn't figure out why she

01:43:12.390 - 01:43:26.089

really, why she hated it so much. And I started, I tried to explain some things to her on the maps. I thought maybe if she could kind of locate herself or something, maybe geograph geography maybe would be a little more interesting. And she was totally unaware

01:43:26.100 - 01:43:42.250

of where Houston or Texas or anything, what context it was in or anything like that. But what bothered me was she was fairly good in arithmetic and she, she said that in her class she usually got done before most of the other kids and with her

01:43:42.259 - 01:44:01.529

problems and the teacher set her off, um, from the rest of the kids because she didn't want her, uh, going around and helping them after she'd finished her work. So she made her sit apart from the rest of them and that, and sort of reverse. I

01:44:01.540 - 01:44:17.240

know, it sounds very weird. She said her teacher would come to school with hair and rollers and things like this and I just totally unbelievable to me. It seemed very strange. And then this little girl had an awful lot of bitterness in her because of it,

01:44:17.250 - 01:44:31.209

I think. And like when I tried to get her to, I had a, a younger student that I was helping her out to in the third grade. And so I tried to get this older one to help her and she just didn't want to. And then

01:44:31.220 - 01:44:44.589

the funniest thing of all was I asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said, teacher and I said, why, you know, why was your teacher? And she says, so I can have a big belt and hit all the kids when

01:44:44.600 - 01:45:02.330

they're naughty and stuff. And I just said, oh, it was very frustrating in that respect that I felt like I have to change a whole value system that this little girl was living in. And, um, I see that sort of thing as only being able to

01:45:02.339 - 01:45:23.529

be done in a long process. And in that sense, I see education as a long term answer to racial problems and this sort of thing, Mary, I'm very impressed with the uh the insights you've shown uh in, in these various issues before we, uh I know

01:45:23.540 - 01:45:42.060

that we've got, you've got to get over to dinner before long uh before we uh close. Uh Is there anything else you'd like to say in the way of a, of a generalizing uh summary of this alter? That was my job with my college reading. Uh

01:45:45.029 - 01:46:02.589

I don't know, I'm, I'm happy now that I'm leaving rice, partly because I'm really leaving, but partly because I've, I've learned more about it just in this last year and I, I appreciate what I have learned here and, and such and I, I really don't know

01:46:02.600 - 01:46:19.339

what to say about the university itself except that I wish it luck because I'm worried, like I said earlier, just, just what will happen unless the board can really get down and start talking to some people around here. Has it ever occurred to you that after

01:46:19.350 - 01:46:33.370

you graduate you might just, uh, sit down and put some of your thoughts on paper about, uh, rice and just send it off to Mr Lovett or after all, you've spoken with him. You know, I hadn't really thought about it. I suppose I ought to, it's

01:46:33.379 - 01:46:52.729

not a bad idea. Maybe if more people, I'm not sure how you'd react. I guess it would depend on how many letters like that he would get. I think you would need to get a lot. That might be a good point. Well, you've, you've shown this

01:46:52.740 - 01:47:10.600

concern and, uh, it's, uh, now that you're about to pass from student to alumni status that, uh, yeah, I, I remember we had trouble with some of the alumni during the math or something. There's apparently all kinds of people that come out of life. That's what

01:47:10.609 - 01:47:25.799

I mean, where it really makes a difference on, on what courses you've taken. And also I think some studies have been done that sort of show that, uh, an undergraduate education doesn't always change your outlook on things as much as perhaps if you continue, it might,

01:47:27.430 - 01:47:42.439

um, that most undergraduates come out with pretty much the same values that that went in. But, um, if they continue into graduate school, do you mean they frequent? I've heard one professor was telling me about that, I'm not sure the validation of it or anything, but

01:47:42.459 - 01:48:01.990

it sounds interesting. Yeah, that's a good idea. I think of some things I could do with no one. I certainly wish you all the luck in the, uh, in the world and I hope that, um, this, this, uh, opportunity with the teacher's corps works out just

01:48:02.000 - 01:48:05.669

the way you want it to. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you very much.