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This is Polly Moran. Today is August 7th 1969. This is tape number 19 interview with doctor Mary Ellen Goodman. Now set the dial to zero. Ok, let's do that. Also, I'd like to get you to give your name and address and I'll check my sitting here

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and all right, Mary Ellen Goodman 27 01, Bellefontaine, 77025. So you're not getting too much registration on the leave. No, just to uh get started, Doctor Goodman. Um you mentioned on the phone yesterday that uh you deliberately uh did not take part in this uh episode.

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Uh Why was that, what did you see happening at the time? I was out of sympathy with my friends and I was quite convinced that there was nothing I could do the instrument who made the train. And so I felt no point in simply exposing myself

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to painful and uh emotion laden situation. Uh The students invited me to come in. This was Saturday morning when we had teaching and express my point of view, they have the family and so on did not wish to do so because I was convinced that I

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was not gonna be exposing myself to the hospital atmosphere. Uh As I said earlier, I was absolutely convinced that the trend was extremely strong and the of shape and that it was really to try to combat it. But I, I think if they did to you,

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uh why were you, uh, out of sympathy with the major view? Well, let me tell you, um, when we, uh I tend to the faculty meeting on Friday afternoon, which the announcement was made, I rapidly size up the situation for my own satisfaction, not to anyone

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else, if necessarily you be sure and concluded that the situation was such that uh Masterson, the board of trustees and the university as a whole stood to be greatly embarrassed by the action that the majority of the faculty ium body is obviously the likely to take.

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I did not feel that the games were the handle if that's the correct expression. I'm not sure that is now that I said it. But anyway, oh, I know, I, I agreed with a major group in both faculty and the student body that the c we

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can handle the situation badly. I was not convinced that they had made a brilliant choice. On the other hand, I wasn't convinced it was such a bad choice either. I really don't know the man well enough to make the judgment. Uh I know that he had

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very dear enemies on the faculty who spoke very strongly. At that meaning. And this did not impress me. I felt that they were actually under emotional motivations rather than intellectual entirely. In short. I was not convinced that the choice was so bad. Uh But I agree

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that the trustees had acted very unwisely, very foolishly as a matter of fact. However, at the faculty meeting, the trustees, I represented by one name to be sure Ble themselves, they really ate humble pie in a manner, quite unusual for right trustee. I'm sure if not

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without precedent. And personally, I felt this was not ok. They've apologized, they've said their name f they've learned their lesson. Um It is not necessary to press the matter to further embarrass them, to embarrass master in his pathetically, the man has been invited to accept his

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presidency. He has accepted it or could possibly be gained except a great deal. Well, what is it the only rate of loss of state for the university as a whole in further pressing the issue? And to what end? Merely to assert the prerogatives of the faculty

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and to your body in the situation? OK. We had varieties which had been ignored to be sure. And I agree. Um but at what price do you press those derogatives? And it seems to me the price is too high that we stood to lose in the

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eyes of probably uh a great deal by creating an incident at this late stage in this series of developments it could have been earlier and I had not accepted the appointment. Um There are all kinds of conditions we try to make a difference. But to me,

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it seemed that this is simply too late. And as I say, pressing for the uh the broom period at this point, uh or simply to uh to make a kind of childish gesture which um would really do little besides satisfy the egos of uh a certain

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number of faculty members, some of whom had been looking for issues. And certainly the students had been looking for issues, some and uh there was a dandy one that they could grab on to. In short, I really felt that there was much more here than met

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the eye. And that um the position taken by the majority of faculty and by many of the students uh represented not entirely a justified intellectual position or a well thought out intellectual position, well thought out in relation to the general welfare of the university that represented

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rather a season of a situation uh to uh to create um a, yeah, a situation in which the uh the faculty goes in to the faculty who wish to do so. And now seems to assert themselves over the fact in the administration. And another consideration from

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my point of view is that a very strong consideration influences me. I had been treated extremely well, the university I've been to other universities and pretty well long years. In academic experience and I'm in a position to evaluate it right in the treatment I've had it

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right in relation to what I have seen with other universities and experience. And it is my deep conviction that rice treats people extremely well. Certainly in my experience, they have, I have nothing but um deep appreciation for the administration and the board of trustees too. So

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far as the personal treatment I have had, has been concerned and I'm not about to turn on the administration of the Board of trustees at this point. Um Not for any uh any causes no greater than the one that was lazy for us. So there was

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a personal reason too and he was at that price and we were grateful to look for the opportunity for talking. Um And it's a great deal of radiation for the past administration, I think president because it was a disaster. And I felt so at the time

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he left and I felt even more strongly so as events marched on towards the Masterson incident and active. But then of course, that's one of the things that one draw. In any case, I simply had no, no motivation, either intellectual or personal. We're going along with

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the uh the train, the train, I thought it was wrong. I still think it was wrong and it was unwise. Now you can argue that position indefinitely. You know, and I have, of course, with my colleagues, but I still think that the students, in fact, the

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majority group that dominated the situation, active and wisely and the response of the community uh bear me out. I feel I understand, you know, the estimate to be lost a law is not of mind. The way cancer findus is the public simply did not understand the

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position taken by the back you do on your back and feeling disappointment. And uh I can see why they didn't understand it. And this is exactly what I'd anticipated would happen. It would not be understood that we remove phase and to lose the support we had.

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And this is his pre and again, uh I consider too high price for serving our karate. You know, what I regard as a child is sort of fashion. So that's, that's sad. Actually, you mentioned the pictures of the nation being a disaster and then the event

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uh that uh followed bore that out. Could you elaborate on that? Well, again, I have to be quite personal in that point of view. I have the greatest respect for president that you as um an administrator, as a scholar, of course, um my, the personal um

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treatment that I I had during his administration in this beyond the quizzes and beyond compare in my academic experience, he was a key figure in uh the administration of course, in determining my academic God. And I have even been grateful to him. But more than that

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beyond the personal gratitude and appreciation, the university in my opinion, uh prospered and thrive and leadership. Um In spite of the fact of his uh own eminence in physical science, he supported the development of humanities and social science in a very remarkable way. We on the

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social science describe we can't prescribe under this administration. We didn't exist, right? The young people, we're in our department of none. Any travel, obviously. Thank you. This is excellent support for Canada for more. He was understanding, he was sympathetic, he was supportive, have a feel about

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what you remember real but uh we had on screen. Mhm So from our point of view in the department is departed, most unfortunate, it was not the fall but I say no, I just think about it and support it, I'm sure. But uh no, in any

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case, my general impression is that R 50 did a very good deal on all fronts. His own personal grad school niche is enough. Uh even by itself, if you haven't seen those eyes are very effective and you his personal FC did a great deal for like,

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you know, like ma ma we have tremendous breasts to have him leave us and leave us with some implications that he was unhappy with the board. Uh was another glove to his first and I cherish the university and I cherish it its prestige of standing in

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the community in the nation. And what are the threatens that stand here and here it's really about the heart of my view and of my motivations was inspected. The whole man, I put the welfare of the university, generally speaking and it pushed down and ahead of

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any other considerations, including the variety of tobacco, which I do not feel I've been seriously jeopardized my thought. You know, he didnt, no, I don't see that. I feel what we do. He had every opportunity to, er, on varieties and then other ways and they have

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to accept that, but I just didn't do any of that bad too. How do you account for this uh this upsurge of uh of Conen? How did it come? About? 12, 1 factor in the situation I believe is a, what might be called a national contagion

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factor. Uh It's fashionable, I have the great issues on university campuses these days and they, and students and fighting back on the administration. Well, we had the unusual situation which some of our faculty felt was marvelous and wonderful and beautiful thing for this one. It didn't

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appeal to me that we had the situation, the faculty not battling with students and students battling with battle too. Uh but shes united in this situation, I guess that's a good thing. I wasn't terribly impressed by it and I saw it rather, I saw it as

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I read it as childishness on the part of the faculty as well as on the part of the students. But um I really did. I really thought about it back when I was the challenge. But anyway, you know, this uh this national fashion for uh getting

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hold of uh of an issue in terms of what versus anymore making a big thing of it and assist the machine. And so on. This is this is fashionable. These things, there are contagious um that had been stirring on r campus. Students have been in some

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of the CS students. They've been looking for an issue around which they could rally the students and help the faculty too. And, uh, they hadn't been able to find one. They tried to stir up excitement about ROTC and nothing happened. She decided that there were other

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efforts to stir up excitement about issues and said, but here was something you spot. Uh, not only the students but the faculty marvelous, marvelous, marvelous. We've got it, we've got it. We'll make the most of it, you know, and we'll, uh, we'll hit while the iron

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is hot and it is. And it's beautifully done. I'm ramping that and I, I must admit I just pick of the week. But, uh, the, uh, the fact that the right students when they demonstrated on Saturday, I'm told, I didn't watch it because I didn't near

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the campus that week. But I'm told that they marched in hopes and ties and, uh, all the dream and so on. They wanted to charge me. Right. Uh, just cute with his little wife that pleases me. Uh oh, that was good. And it was good for

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them to university and ok, that's fine. But, um beyond that, there were local reasons for, I mean, beyond this national invasion that uh they were local reasons which made it easy, your local conditions, factories, which made it easy to stir up excitement. Um, about this particular

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incident. Masterson's unpopularity, very great on profitability in certain forms which I think outweighed his popularity and he was also strongly support and the support uh of exactly keep them knowing he's been gone too long for most of them do more than that. But uh as I

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mentioned earlier, he is an extremely dedicated woman who I fly. I don't know why, who would you include in these dedicated enemies uh members of his own department, the history department to some extent members of the English Department. So um other departments in which their faculty

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members they knew well. And uh right. Um probably, yeah, mainly uh department, senior humanities and social scientists over which the being the same trying to remember about physical sciences. There was some dedicated enemies in physical science too. I am a little reluctant to many names. I'm

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sure you've got millions of people replay it themselves. I'm sure. So there's no real from but uh to generalize, I think f they all covered as well as I can. Let's see, what were the 90 days on it? That was signed the one on Friday, Friday,

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I think. 61 or 61. Mhm. Right. I guess that was right. Well, that was, you know, it was, it was pretty good thing. Imagine. Um, I wasn't asked to sign the petition because I wasn't on the campus that afternoon. So I just came back to the

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camp and the back and, uh, I would have reduced. So, if I, for what was there at that meeting that uh impressed you at, at the time you've mentioned, uh uh Mr Allen's eating humble pie. Right. Right. You certainly did. Well, KC master all the while

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as a fashion, uh everything was wrong. Um atmosphere. I, I was terribly worried about that because when I was having to chair the sessions, it wasn't too long. Um beyond recuperation has been a very serious surgery, you know, but we've been very well and uh there

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was a heart condition and part of my concern during his memory was the fact that he was being put under terrible strain and read. As you can imagine, one of the most difficult for the wish to do that. Um There were students present and why they

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were present, why they were allowed to be never going to be back with you before. I don't know. Oh, I would be making a rough. Yes. And I was, tore me half of that. And uh there were lots of teams outside the building waiting for a

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word and apparently they were listening at the back door or else they were getting a word. We and I was, they were inside. I don't know, but when we emerged the meeting, they knew exactly how we vote, they even know, knew how individual could vote. Because,

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um, as I told you, I was called, I was doing Friday night, the department to P Saturday morning with the teacher. But then my, the point of view I had taken to me and I didn't feel it was any of the people's business. What's going to

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be? I, it, to me, I resented this. Um I'm a little touchy about faculty varieties too, I guess, but in a very different sort of way than most college. Um I do not believe that students have run university. I'm delighted to listen to their suggestions and

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their advice to select some money is because it didn't make sense that it was a fine, but I don't want students deciding on uh faculty appointments and promotions, for example, uh this way lies anarchy and the popularity kind of travel, for example. And I think that

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the trend towards student power was, uh, was very dangerous. Yeah, but it must be kept out of control. And uh I, I resented the fact that students were allowed to sit in there and out of work except I did the doctor bur, I just didn't quite

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have the heart of the strength to cross them out or have somebody toss them out. It might have been a little bit difficult to do for any other persons that you were aware of. I think there may have been these crazy people, but I am not

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sure about that. I'm just guessing. Um, that was your felt about it. Uh If you had known they were friends of, uh, present at the time, I wouldn't like that either because I thought this was an in house affair and this was a family bottle she

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infect in his family money as much as possible. And, you know, again, I, I was concerned about the injury, working, the whole situation seemed to me to be most important. The fact was the costal to Mr Allen uh majority. How does it manifest itself hostility in

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uh hospital questions? And uh and oh, it's, it's hard to describe the atmosphere of a meeting, but you can, it's, it's practically tangible. You can feel it when the majority is hostile to you speaking. And uh they were tremendously, nothing he could say was right. In

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fact, he, he, he made a poor presentation. Everything went wrong. As I say, you know, everything was wrong about that meeting. What was it? It was weak, it was ineffectual. He didn't present an adequate explanation for the behavior of the drug use. Maybe it wasn't even

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because he presented. Um And I suppose that's quite true as in that, but um his humbleness far from winning sympathy and support simply, uh, seemed to arouse more hostility. It was the wrong approach. I don't know that there could have been a right approach to the

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faculty at that point. Uh, because there already is. Uh, so, so last time I'm willing to listen to the dress of the side. But, um, everything he said and the way in which he said it seemed only to further confirm, not exactly sure they build it,

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um, I, I guess it was probably a, a trend that had already been set in 19. He was back control. I don't know. Did you get the impression that, uh, he's a poor speaker of the room or, uh, just in this particular environment? Well, certainly, you

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know, you can do for winning friends and influencing people. We have never met him personally. No, I don't know him. Not personally. No, I don't, I never heard him speak at me. I know the situation so I don't know. But my soul, he's a very successful

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business man. I understand. Surely he must be persuasive ordinarily and surely he must be, uh, capable of winning people to your side. But in this situation, they get very lost. And here again, you see the situation unfortunate because, uh, the German board was only gonna be

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present the board. I just a lot, but everything went wrong. Just everything was, uh, I don't know whether love it would have been any more effective, but I think we would have been part of it because he is changing his before and because of his lung

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association, you know, a lot of movie carried a lot of weight on. So that might have helped. I don't know, but I really doubt that anything was, it was, uh, it was running very, very strongly and we get a clear and that was, as I said,

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at the beginning, I knew that I, at least I felt convinced but nothing could reverse the. All right. My health condition has been like on the people side all last year. I don't, I simply don't expose myself to situations unless I feel I can be useful

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and uh that, you know, that I really have something to give and I was absolutely convinced that the kids and had nothing to do with nothing to be effective. And so I simply stayed away from all. Ok, I got all my news about what was going

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on from the radio and TV. And his personal report. Can you get uh the hi appropriation, I mean, acute radio here? Uh or is it just broadcast on the table as far as I know it just broadcast the same? So you uh the news you got

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over radio commercial? And then of course, I had, I got my personal report to it. I understand. Um oh, some of the behavior, the fact we just made him kill. I mean, like the grandmother reported to him shaking his finger. And then after to his nose

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and said, you will never be present in this and that was exactly where you were. But I, um, well, if one is to name the outstanding firebrand, I know the back, right back or anything who is front and center in any disturbance. And, uh, you know,

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this is another thing you have on any faculty. I'm sure going back to the factory to be responsible for what have you. I'm sure on a fact that you have uh what might be called professional visitant because you and the student body people who are only

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happy when they're in the middle of a fight. I need all the drive so that great you safe. And certainly we need to be down for number one uh professional visitors. And right, exactly. Uh We've got a lot of others who are not quite as constructive,

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but almost one of them you need to buy, to buy this one. Got my more history. Oh, what's his name? His name is Alan. So right now France brought me, he was chairman of the Exactly guys. Me, his name and of course furious because it's really

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overnight. Uh France is not a professional visit. On the other hand, you guys are a strong man, including that of this community too. I understand, you know, like this, you know, with me, did you talk with him uh personally about this or uh uh when you

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say that uh he was curious, is this the impression you got from his presentation? And uh I overheard him talking with people that I thought I didn't talk personally. I never did talk to the person about it. But I mean, not that we're good friends, we

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have them in the back and been good to you. There's no point in fighting about this thing. I'm not, I'm not a fighter except when I feel very, very strong with this, an important cause involved. I'm sure my colleagues are the same way or feel the

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way I feel as much as about themselves, as much as I feel about America. I think I will if um if I feel strong that there's nothing to you, but I don't go on my way looking for flight and enjoy that. I bet one over here.

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So I have to go through the same thing too. So that too explains my non participation. Just the personal attitude of the uh professional dissidents or even those who were um who were outspoken activists, uh who would you regard as uh those having a great deal

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of prestige among the cycles, bro? You're Yeah. Uh But I, I just qualified him as a professional victim to the um I'm not sure either that I would want to playing outstanding drug dealing badly for any of the others. They're all well known, they're all conspicuous

00:31:27.310 - 00:31:49.510

back. I mean, but prestige is another thing, respect and respect. I don't know I don't know how far it goes. Yeah, earlier, you mentioned that uh by the time of the four o'clock fax meeting on Friday, things that had been set in motion were almost irreversible

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here. Um How do you think this was done? What the carriers of the PC, the current succeeded in crystallizing you point. And uh, well, as early as noon time of that day, I remember I was having lunch at the back of club J nine o'clock and

00:32:11.949 - 00:32:42.199

we were approached by exactly. I don't want to do that. See that, uh, who said she was the sparkle in his eye and don't miss the back of the room. That real confrontation, really something. It's sure you're there. You know, there was people were going on

00:32:42.209 - 00:33:14.760

the outside and things like that and he was wondering, ok. Mhm. Oh, I think you should a buzz all afternoon. I gather from that, I guess it was keep going. I'm not falling to do their own boat and so on. And even our departments sort of

00:33:14.770 - 00:33:35.949

by mutual consent. It was in formal ranking. But we, uh, we kind of gathered and sat together and voted pretty much together. Our department was, I think I can say almost solitary on, on the same side that I took. Uh, well, I hope this, this solitary

00:33:35.959 - 00:34:03.020

weakened somewhat over the weekend. I please. The double room. Yeah, it is. But, um, a lot of time they came down, I think I believe you, you know, the, the damn. Oh, exactly. You know how to do. Well, I think, yeah, to be sure there were

00:34:03.030 - 00:34:26.479

a lot of older people who, you know, was in the business but by and large, that's the sort of thing that feels more young. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In my opinion, you know, like a perspective on the situation, the kind of perspective, for example that I was

00:34:26.489 - 00:34:41.949

talking about, I wanna talk about how well I can feel it was, you know, many of these younger people have no idea how well they're being treated because they don't have any other experience. They start working for the best university. That's right. Exactly. You know, and

00:34:41.959 - 00:34:55.330

they just don't know how well off they are. They never had it so good and never will again, but they don't know it. And, uh, I get kind of sensational with him because I feel it's a, it's a shame that I appreciate what they have. We

00:34:55.350 - 00:35:20.090

have, we have two courses, semester requirements. Uh, we have all kinds of encouragement and opportunities to be researched. We work with graduate students. Uh, we have fine library resources in short. You know, we have practically everything. It seems to me. Small departments, small classes, uh, excellent

00:35:20.100 - 00:35:37.189

students, highly selected students. We had everything. Exactly. And they were good to good war and as for and certainly reasonable salary schedules, not the best in the country, but far from the worst. In the country. They're pretty well off on the scale among universities with respect

00:35:37.199 - 00:35:59.260

the salary schedule. You know, I, I don't see what we got to think about. So, ok, the trustee don't consult us about the new present, you know, for me, this, so what, it just isn't all that important to me. Obviously, some people, it is vast differences

00:35:59.270 - 00:36:17.010

in the pain that she must be taken out. You see that it is, it means I'm really a great deal of many, many things. Mhm. Mhm. At the time, the uh the faculty advisory committee was meeting all through the fall. Did you have occasion to submit

00:36:17.020 - 00:36:34.530

any names of a candidate whom you would like to have considered for pregnant? No, but my husband did and survive on. I manage everything for city. Uh At least you have an approach to the brain and I'm sorry about that because that was just a highly

00:36:34.540 - 00:36:57.139

appropriate hand, whether the, whether the student faculty committee took any cognizance of his name. I don't know. I've never asked Bratton. I don't think my husband was asked my husband has but, but I heard just the other day that this man is taking me to move

00:36:57.189 - 00:37:28.000

with me doing something. It's a shame for first I, I let, but we, that, that in quality um national recognition is a physical scientist. Um Maybe he's a physicist. Maybe it is, you know, I don't know, um good looking man, young, vigorous and excellent speaker. Uh,

00:37:28.010 - 00:37:57.550

good administrative administrative experience, not as eminent as pictures, certainly. And I'm saying this, but with a sterling reputation, a considerable reputation born in, in his early forties and he was willing to be considered and this is not too easily come by these days. Not too many

00:37:57.560 - 00:38:17.260

people want to be even considered a university president. And that was another thing that been worried me about the men situation if we treat masters in this way, how much uh further where we have to go to find somebody who's willing to consider this position for

00:38:17.300 - 00:38:33.090

this kind of treatment that he's received. Just worried me and still worries me. Uh I don't think ever wants to do anything. He wants to 10 his own garden and get on to his own and search and write, you know, something you an issue. I may

00:38:33.100 - 00:38:58.209

be wrong but I usually have it down for same for your face and saying of the day. But were there others uh on the campus here who uh I knew that would have made? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Blood pressure and visit the first rate. Would you really

00:38:58.399 - 00:39:19.560

consider no national reservation? Apparently he's a minister. The business people aren't well, so far as I know this is what you experience. He is. He done well. He's a very attractive person physically first on so forth it brown that he was one of the people I

00:39:19.570 - 00:39:42.429

thought of immediately. He said when he was young as a possible success of the picture. I think I sound in the campus. I would, I feel about it in the first grade. I don't think I have strong stuff and it, finding for the patient who, where

00:39:42.500 - 00:40:01.370

from the campus, how do you feel about Gordon is not interested? And I said, and he said he said more than enough. And that's my impression. So I think he was the last one here one. I'm not sure if I want it either. You're not sure

00:40:01.379 - 00:40:25.189

Broxton would want how he done. Yes, there's so few people who, and once they got there to get out of this, what in your view would be some of the most serious problems facing? Well, I, I should put this in a patch pen at the time.

00:40:25.199 - 00:40:42.379

They were looking for a president. Uh, what do you consider to be some of the most serious problem the president would have to deal with here at? Uh, I don't think it was all about the question. Is he really had that many serious problems, I suppose

00:40:42.389 - 00:41:08.300

on every campus at this stage in the game, uh, a president or a president has to worry about relations between things, faculty and administration and trusts. He, um, and the possibility of disorders and disruptions. Uh, but I don't think life was peculiarly outstanding in that regard,

00:41:08.739 - 00:41:26.669

but I think this would have been if I had been asked to be pregnant. I would have worried more about this kind of problem and immediate future about anything else. I mean, beyond that, of course, there is always a problem to fundraise building segments of the

00:41:26.679 - 00:41:51.719

university, everything. And in terms of uh becomes a balanced structure, we are becoming a balanced structure as a university and not, not of the Institute of Science. And then, and that's what smart for me to do. Would you regard the fundraising as an important function of

00:41:51.729 - 00:42:19.159

the president? One of the things that you say reduces the interest of people having become a university person. I know that I find several times you've mentioned the national prestige uh as an important factor in the president. Uh Am I interpreting it correctly to indicate that

00:42:19.169 - 00:42:39.399

uh you think that it would take a, a scholar of National International iIn to satisfy the conditions for presidency here at Rye? No, not necessarily. The institution can make the name as well as the name. The institution is true. But by and large, if one can

00:42:39.409 - 00:43:07.120

get a pregnancy there, imagine you recognize this to this does a lot for me by itself, probably good for public relations. It's likely to be an indicator of ability. It didn't necessarily be sure if it's likely to be. But as far as confidence and is he

00:43:09.310 - 00:43:29.080

rash in the people tend to assume that he's a good name that he's going to be a good president and giving him the benefit of that my hair is not to be, but he starts out with the family. This is important, have the advantage of the

00:43:30.550 - 00:43:57.979

important to him. So, uh do you have any candidates in mind at, at this point who you'd like to see uh considered to as a success or say to bend up be it? You know, unless we take some cancer specific diver, I enjoy it. It could

00:43:57.989 - 00:44:30.540

be a sign. OK. We're, we're personal friends. I expect to be sure, probably there. Yeah, I know in relation to other members of the faculty because uh my husband, you mentioned earlier that um at the four o'clock faculty meeting on Friday that uh uh Doctor Kona

00:44:30.879 - 00:44:46.850

uh chaired the meeting amazingly. Well, yet everything went wrong. Did you sense any opportunity that he might have had to uh end the meeting or channel it in any different way so that the vote might not have been registered to or if that could have happened,

00:44:46.860 - 00:45:06.820

what do you think would have? I don't think it, they can see the cat is running so strongly that it would have asserted itself formally or informally just as it asserted itself informally I say, and uh he did one thing and delighted, he insisted that the

00:45:06.830 - 00:45:34.310

man had presented the petition signed by the X 960 or whatever, read all the names on the list that this is done. Uh Was, it was amusing because partly because some of the names were illegible reason unless it is unable to read them. You know, how

00:45:34.320 - 00:45:58.449

people just crawl in hand. There was no fake about it, but it just amused me because he was stumbling and embarrassed. Uh, uh, is it Jack and Joe, I think? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And I must admit I was sufficiently and he was good to be

00:45:58.459 - 00:46:16.120

amused by his embarrassment over the situation and to be pleased that Carrie insisted that he was, he read, he said that was only fair. What was your reaction to the names, uh that, uh, that you heard, uh, some of them spread. But of course, I had

00:46:16.129 - 00:46:33.969

not known, I don't spend a lot of time gossiping with my colleagues and, uh that's part of it and I had not really known much about the, the friendship and enmity alignment in the battle of VWs. So that some of them seem to be a great

00:46:33.979 - 00:46:54.979

surprise. Go. Well, does that mean that you interpreted the, the signatures on this petition as being, uh at this point? Uh anti master? Yes. But both ants and anti and indeed they, at least he just pushed to the case as I was saw, wasn't it? He

00:46:54.989 - 00:47:14.199

was in the preamble as it were, didn't he? Well, as I recall, the petition had uh, two parts in it and uh, one was, uh, and then for the procedure and the other was, uh, medically requesting a re evaluation. Right. Exactly. That's what I mean to

00:47:14.209 - 00:47:35.320

say with both, both hit, did you notice any vote switching um that struck you at the time between um the vote on splitting the petition and the vote on the second part of the um of the uh petition? That is the anti master as far as

00:47:35.330 - 00:48:01.050

the resolution uh switching as I recall and I may be wrong because I recall and you run out of me. Now they vote against the Trustees Action Center in drafting action was considerably larger than the vote, asking for reconciliation with the appointment itself. So with a

00:48:02.199 - 00:48:23.159

return, what I was wondering is whether uh it occurred to you at the time that it may have been possible to that those who signed a petition may have signed primarily as an anti procedural matter and you may in the faculty meeting itself have changed over

00:48:23.520 - 00:48:46.919

and voted no on part two. I think that's possible and I, I've already used those parts patient, not because I subscribed to the way the trustees would behave, as I said. And I thought that be very wide and remarkably foolish. But in fact, I find I

00:48:46.929 - 00:49:04.620

still find it difficult to believe that they could have been so short sight in this day and age where it can be climate of what they are. He suggested that they were putting it removed and remote in the real world, I must admit. And I certainly

00:49:04.629 - 00:49:28.219

didn't feel that like a wise, but I my favorite ashes too. You mentioned that, uh, that some of the names you heard on that patient surprise you. Uh, do you recall which names, uh, came surprised. Uh, the ex chairman of the English Department is the one

00:49:29.239 - 00:50:03.129

wheeled out and will out and you're surprised that you sign up. Yes, I know the same as well. Uh, some of the people in physical sciences, Adam. Yeah. Sulfur and three. That's all of us. And anyway, I know they were quite nice. II, I have no

00:50:03.139 - 00:50:46.659

previous knowledge of the. Yeah, I see my dog casually a lot of, is that it not a faculty and gosper? Mhm. I don't see that pretty, my colleague necessarily system. So, um I'm just sitting on to shadowing. Mm, about 500 years. 10 to 2. Besides, I

00:50:46.669 - 00:51:05.080

have confidence in people who are running campus affairs and as far as I'm concerned it's their business and I've got enough to do in my own, but that's my own meeting. I realize it's getting uh getting on for your lunch time. I'd like to late breakfast.

00:51:05.090 - 00:51:27.080

So don't worry about, um, I was interested in, in exploring your, uh your thoughts on a couple of other things though. You mentioned uh over the phone yesterday. I think that uh that uh you thought your uh position in remaining aloof from the controversy was uh

00:51:27.760 - 00:51:46.370

I don't remember what you said. Unrepresentative or representative. Do you think that there were very few, uh, neutrals, uh, who shared your probably very, too. I think I was in a small hurry. I often am. It is a difficult position for me to find myself in.

00:51:47.649 - 00:52:06.149

I don't know what that says about me, but I think it's true. Well, does that mean that you think then that, um, the vote that was taken in the, um, on Monday, for instance, was pretty representative of the genuine sentiment on campus on the family, right?

00:52:07.330 - 00:52:26.989

How do you feel for this sudden polarization? Do you think it was there all the time or what's the I account for it? I, I really can only guess of course, but factors I have already mentioned in the national and the fact that both students and

00:52:27.000 - 00:52:56.370

faculty, at least some of them have been looking for issues. And here this rally support to um Masterson is personal, maybe the board's personal enemies. The board is not very popular, I think basically and has not been very popular. It's been removed. Actually, at least this

00:52:56.379 - 00:53:13.090

is my impression. I don't I scar if they know the name of the board. Maybe. In fact, if you were to ask his name, all of our names, I can't foster you. Um so very remotely for the board, he's probably done nothing to do it. Um

00:53:13.550 - 00:53:48.000

Traveling students money probably exactly supposed to win probably well for these people to rally support. Uh What kind of a fertile field must be present? In the beginning. So they will let me do that amazing leadership and the professional visits and the, and the activists and

00:53:48.010 - 00:54:15.699

the, and the faculty who felt genuinely outraged. I'm sure they did. You know Robson, for example, he's a reasonable man. You just need to go off. He was genuinely outraged. I'm sure just as genuinely as I was uh differently the same and one can only respect

00:54:15.709 - 00:54:37.560

one. So hugs you. These are the considered, uh, opinions that, uh, of a large number of people in the faculty, the fact that I didn't happen to share them. I mean, I don't feel that they're necessarily right because I was in the minority. Um, on the

00:54:37.570 - 00:54:58.300

other hand, if you were necessarily wrong, entirely wrong, I understand this and motivation to some extent, but it's not to the extent of sharing them all the way, that's for sure. Did you, uh, at any time beco become aware of any, uh, coercion or intimidation even

00:54:58.310 - 00:55:16.860

on the most subliminal level, uh, in this whole, do you think the vote in the department, in the vote for? Not in our department? That's all I can say. I can only speak for a, uh, a bar is good democratic in the spirit. It certainly was

00:55:16.870 - 00:55:41.610

not. No, you don't. So lovely. No implication you were expected to vote one. No one ever. No. And I didn't do it. Exactly. Generally. Uh, many of my good friends differed from me very radically. In their points of view and uh with some of them I

00:55:41.620 - 00:56:06.520

discussed tonight but, um, you know, I, I felt no, you know, pressures on whatever and have them since I made no secret of my position. I never do. Yeah. No. Hold, which is one of the things too that I think is wonderful about right? One thing

00:56:06.530 - 00:56:28.719

different radically and one colleagues and, you know, not be, um not feel it inviting ostracism. You, uh, have not been aware that of any, uh any changes in friendship patterns, uh because of uh conflicting views on this one. There have been some, I think there must

00:56:28.729 - 00:56:50.449

have been, um, I'm told that some of Masterson's friends on the faculty felt very strongly about, uh, the opposition that we see. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty bitter uh, about some of its sources which I can well believe. And I think if I were one of his dear

00:56:50.459 - 00:57:13.129

friends and one of his wife, dear friends, I too would have been pretty there from the opposition, which I wouldn't undoubtedly have thought that he was there and I'm good. So, but, um, apart from who I, deep ribs left and you are, again, I don't gossiping

00:57:13.290 - 00:57:34.340

at you to have my finger on the pulse, probably of the, uh, the gross unfairness of the opposition. Do anything particular in mind, uh, that, uh, friends of massing might have objected to most of them. Yes. I think they ejected vehemently to the fact that. And

00:57:34.350 - 00:57:58.050

as this uh opposition arose uh after the men had already accepted the appointment and publicly Health assist, which is humiliation and man did not deserve but no man deserved. It's not like I share this feeling. I felt that care it up for me. And at his

00:57:58.060 - 00:58:20.050

own university, you know, his home base as it were to have this happen to women's rejection and the pelvis of it. You came in the bar on a Saturday, uh, the public confrontations and sure medicine or anything else and so on. Uh, how dreadfully familiar I

00:58:20.239 - 00:58:51.399

just have to do and you just don't stay. Mhm. I probably been all these close friends. I too. It's dreadfully. I called for and dreadfully really cruel to eat what you thinking. And this too. I was part of my family on his behalf. A little, not

00:58:51.409 - 00:59:15.649

his friend. I know you want to be a friend and not to be his friend. Uh, my limited contact within it. That for me to feel better, the notes that are cool personality, not particularly warm, not particularly rain. And that's what I said. I did not

00:59:15.659 - 00:59:41.360

regard as good an appointment. I thought it best to put it much better than, and sure that, but on the other hand, all these other considerations as far as I'm concerned without weights perfect. And besides, I thought I was really quick. Jo, I haven't been terribly

00:59:41.370 - 00:59:57.229

attracted to him as a person, but you know what that good for him. It doesn't. Yeah, some people will hurt. At least they're qualified to judge of that person. Well, they, no doubt do and possibly they aren't a lot better than you do. I don't know.

00:59:58.500 - 01:00:35.949

So, so I'm not closing the back 2000 and I wasn't impressed. Certainly no rice. And, uh, they have the best interest of rice at heart. Equally hard. I also think that from his personal point of view, take care of um being as familiar as you are

01:00:35.959 - 01:00:57.570

with this oral history project. Are there uh any faculty members uh or for that matter, anyone? Uh Some of you especially think we uh should seek out interviews who might not come to our attention otherwise it seems unlikely would not have. Right. Um And if you

01:00:57.639 - 01:01:19.010

don't, you ignore it. Sure. Not so good. You talk to change, David. No, I haven't talked to with him but uh I've, I've heard the tape so I see. I see. Well, you probably will talk, I talk to Martin. Oh, yes. And uh I had a

01:01:19.020 - 01:01:42.429

talk with uh Doctor Harwood, a good one. What are you trying to interview everybody? Well, we're not really funded to do that. Uh uh The interviews are running uh an hour and a half to two hours each. And uh we uh had budgeted about 80 interviews,

01:01:42.540 - 01:01:59.540

an average of two hours. So uh so some of them are shorter than that. So we'll be able to do more than that. We've done about 46 so far, about half of it, half a pack of it. So, um, you know what I mean? We, we

01:01:59.550 - 01:02:19.120

would interview everybody on the phone but, uh, well, we certainly won't as many different perspectives possible because every, every individual sees things differently. I don't know what you're gonna do with all these different perspectives. It's gonna be pretty difficult integration, uh, researchers. So we're just collecting

01:02:19.129 - 01:02:34.810

the data. I think it's an interesting idea. Although my initial reaction to the project, I must have, you must admit was, oh, why can't we just forget it? You know, the sooner we forget it, the better it, the better for the university. I wasn't at all

01:02:34.820 - 01:02:55.179

sure I wanted to see it preserved and documenting. Well, frankly enough, there are uh what's coming out of it I think would be especially interesting for sociologist and social psychologist and the um the mobilization of, of mass opinion or in an academic uh environment is really

01:02:55.189 - 01:03:13.600

something very interesting. It is, it's very impressive. It's uh well, as far as I know, there has been not a great deal of work done on social perspective or social perspective, you know, the, the way people perceive different groups and they, the stereotypes they carry around

01:03:13.610 - 01:03:34.629

their mind. Therefore, how they interpret things in accordance with the stereotype rather than in accordance with what's really going on. But who knows what's really going on another question too and how to separate their, your interpretation is based on stereotypes and your interpretation is based on

01:03:34.639 - 01:03:58.870

reality tricky business. Fred Dent in our department is a very level headed man. Anthologist. Uh, from when I had a graveyard is already back, you might like to care for him. Have some burglar, is that right? Because it done, you know, were they there fairly recently

01:03:58.879 - 01:04:18.770

enough to have, um, have had some experience with the, uh, servings of your birth? How was the, the early times? So you might find out and just physically afraid of them? Well, I, I appreciate that suggestion. I had realized he, uh, he was at, at Berkeley.

01:04:19.290 - 01:04:37.100

Mhm. Well, I have no further questions at this time. Do you have anything you'd like to, uh, to add? I said much more than I expected to say. I thought I had to say you're an offer. Good interview. Oh, well, thank you very much. II, I

01:04:37.120 - 01:04:46.409

like to believe I've gotten better in the last few months. I'm sure you have nothing like experience. That's really true. The time is now 1215.