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Teresa Morgado: Okay, awesome. Were you able to get your headphones figured out? Libre Rocha: It's fine. I can hear it just fine. Teresa Morgado: Okay. Are you familiar with the oral history project that TTBP is working on? Libre Rocha: Yeah, I'm fairly familiar with it.

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Teresa Morgado: Okay, cool. So if you don't mind, we can just get into the oral history. Please introduce yourself. Libre Rocha: My name is Libre Rocha. My family is Lipan Apache, on my dad's side. I work for a Texas Tribal Buffalo project as a volunteer coordinator. I guess that's pretty brief, but that's me. Teresa Morgado: And yeah. Where were you born if you would like to share? Libre Rocha: I was born in Virginia. My dad's family moved to Virginia because of the Navy. My aunt and uncle moved there, and my dad’s family lived with them, so that’s how they ended up in Virginia from Texas.

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Tate Bregman: Did you grow up in Virginia or when did you move to Texas? Libre Rocha: I grew up in Virginia. Yeah, I've been in Texas not that long, about four months or something like that. Tate Bregman: Do you have any memories from your childhood that you feel impacted you and really led to your personal development to the person you are today? Libre Rocha: I mean, I've always gone to powwows and things with my dad. Growing up, I think that's part of something that we did and I don’t know, so I think that's part of my development as an adult as well being connected since I was little to things like that.

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Teresa Morgado: And these powwows were in Virginia? Libre Rocha: Most of them are Virginia, yeah, powwows are intertribal gatherings that happen all over. So most of them were in Virginia, yeah. Teresa Morgado: And it wasn't just your tribe, it was various different groups? Libre Rocha: Yeah, that's how powwows are normally open to the public. It's people who are around or people from out of town even. So they're all kind of a hodgepodge group sometimes.

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Teresa Morgado: Do you have any memories that specifically stand out of your favorite moments? Libre Rocha: I mean, I think some of there are things like my dad has told me and stories and things like that that stand out to me, but as when they were little and growing up in Corpus Christi eating sea turtles and things like that, which is a Karankawa tradition, but apparently my uncles were very much the eaters of sea turtles, which is endangered and all of that now, but so little things like that are kind of cool to hear and talk about. My dad talking about having to eat cactus and stuff growing up out here in South Texas and stuff like that. Tate Bregman: Within Virginia, did you move around a lot growing up or did you stay in the same place? Libre Rocha: Location? We stayed in the same location. I graduated high school in Virginia Beach, so I basically grew up in the Hampton Roads area. We all kind of [unintelligible] and then I joined the Navy myself when I was seventeen. So everyone in my family has been in the Navy in some way, somehow, generation wise.

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Tate Bregman: How did you stay connected to your culture while in the Navy? Do you feel like you got a bit disconnected or was— Libre Rocha: Sure, it's definitely hard to connect when you're assigned somewhere and I was on a ship for four years, so being on a ship, your office goes where it wants to go and then you go with it. So that definitely is a hard disconnect when you're deployed or on a ship. So that definitely was a factor for sure. Teresa Morgado: How are you able to connect with your community here in Texas since you've moved? Libre Rocha: I've gone to several bear dances. I've been to Sunrise Dances in Mescalero Apache reservation with my family there. I've done sunrise dances on San Carlos with my relatives out there on the reservation in Arizona and helped this year with the fires in Mescalero Apache reservation, raised a bunch of money to help out with my relatives in Mescalero after the fire. And then since I've been here, also working with Texas Tribal Buffalo Project and working with the Buffalo and being out on the ranch and being with the buffalo was definitely a very special thing as well. Got to spend a week out there and ranch sit, so I was kind of cool and just connecting with my relatives here and my family and found out through the DNA portion that two of my coworkers that I was working with at Texas Tribal are my third Cousins so that's kind of cool because the DNA backs everything else, and that we're all related, so little things like that have been cool connections being back here in Texas where my family's always been.

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Tate Bregman: Are you close with your extended family, like your cousins? Libre Rocha: Yeah, I am. I'm kind of the only one of my cousins who speaks Apache and things like that, so people ask me lots of, they call me for culture questions and things like that, so I get to hold that space in my family, but they're all part of, we've got a, Montezuma is our fourteenth grandfather and we got paperwork for that as well, so we've got a group thread called the Montezumas and so everything that happens with our family is pretty much shared there, updated there and kind of disseminates through the family through a pretty big group text message. So we're pretty connected with each other. I have my Aunt Debbie lives in Dallas. She came down and helped sell Buffalo at the powwow, we were selling buffalo meat at the powwow in San Marcos. So yeah, keeping them connected as well as the back and forth that we all—space we hold for each other. Teresa Morgado: That's incredible. How did you learn to speak Apache? Libre Rocha: I took Apache through online classes. It was a group class through San Carlos for a few years and I took a college level Apache for two years in San Carlos Apache College. And then just doing some, I teach entry level Apache as well, so I have a class we do every Friday at Texas Tribal. We do culture and traditions and language and things like that. So just putting in hours and hours and hours and hours of time learning and with elders listening to sometimes the same story over and over and over again. But that's how knowledge is shared sometimes, long and slow.

00:10:20.000 - 00:12:45.000

Tate Bregman: I know you talked about how you're the center of culture for your family as far as speaking Apache, what are your favorite things about your culture? Libre Rocha: I think just being in Texas and being from Texas, the heat and the mesquite thorns and the noseburn nettle and all of the other things that bite and sting and make Texas a rough place to live. A lot of people will complain about those things and I think having been from here and of this place is different when you're kind of riding around and you're connecting with the land in a different way and connecting with your relatives that have, like I said, my family has lived all up and down South Texas forever, so just going to San Marcos and going to San Antonio and going to different places where my family's lived for since the records began and connecting with those places in a different way. Teresa Morgado: And have you been the one to go and find these records about your family's genealogy and all of this? Libre Rocha: Yeah, I did that for, I mean I still do a lot of that, but yeah, doing all the genealogy research and the paperwork and the DNA and the haplo groups and all the other pokes and prods and then getting my dad to do things and getting my aunts to do things so that we have records of that we can split their parents off and things like that. So they text me when they're like, “Hey, how did so-and-so and so, so die or can you get these records?” And I just, I'm like, give me a minute, I'll pull up the stuff we have for our family's documents.

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Tate Bregman: Do you envision yourself passing down all of the genealogy records to someone else in your family? Libre Rocha: Yeah, I share everything openly so nothing is private and I keep everything public so that it helps other people who connect with us and other people in our family and other people in our family call. We have other native people in our family who are from California and their husband is my first cousin, so they always call me for things like they're trying to get him, see if they could get him any kind of health insurance or things like that just because of the nature of Texas and how Texas became Texas and then Texas. There's no provisions for any kind of recognition for native people of Texas. We're all just considered Mexican, even though if you consider Texas part of America, it's just a way of recognizing people, but it's a whole another story. Teresa Morgado: How do you keep your culture alive in your daily life? Libre Rocha: Painting a teepee right now. So I mean I'm doing things all the time in a very specific way and doing my research and knowledge and culture bearing things and still continuing to teach and speak and think in an Apache way and connect my family in those ways and do ceremonies and things like that when they arise. Continuing to do those things keeps me connected, especially being here back in Texas.

00:15:03.000 - 00:17:33.000

Teresa Morgado: Is there one lesson or tradition from Apache culture that has been passed down to you that forms an essential part of how you live your life or how you see the world? Libre Rocha: Yes, I'll say in the Apache language and in Apache life ways, customs and traditions, there is no word to this day, nor will there ever be a word to say I'm sorry. And so there's no way to say I'm sorry. And I think in our apologetic world that we live in, we're always using, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. We say that, but it doesn't mean anything. And then thinking about taking responsibility for what you do and what you say and how you act or the things you do, owning that and not being apologetic because there's not even a way to think of shame and sorrow and guilt is not a part of traditional mind rules of thought, I guess. So I try to, when I hear people tell me, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm like, don't say you're sorry. It's not even something we should all use very loosely like we do, but to just stand by what you do and do good things and be in a good way so that you don't have to apologize for things or own what you have done or what you do. Libre Rocha: The only thing you can say is, I was just saying it. That's the closest way you can say I'm sorry is I was just, there were just words is about as close as you can get to saying I'm sorry, and Apache language. Tate Bregman: You mentioned that you're painting a teepee now. Are you a big artist beyond that? Do you feel like art plays a really important role in your life?

00:17:33.000 - 00:18:54.000

Libre Rocha: I'm a tattoo artist and I do traditional things and art and stuff like that, so I think also just living in a different way. It all goes hand in hand. The art and the history, the knowledge and things like that. Teresa Morgado: You said you're a tattoo artist. Where did you learn this art from? Libre Rocha: I went to tattoo school in New York and Brooklyn in 2017 and I worked at a shop in New York until the pandemic and then I work for myself now and just for five years I was fully nomadic living in the school bus behind me, just traveling in the country full time, somewhere different every month. Teresa Morgado: That's awesome. What led you to try out that nomadic life?

00:18:54.000 - 00:21:14.000

Libre Rocha: Say what? I guess the pandemic for sure. I used my unemployment money to build the school bus tiny house and just went on from there. So I've hiked the whole Appalachian trail. I've hiked Pacific Crest Trail. I've lived in a tent for a year and a half of my life and live on a motorcycle for six months. So I guess I've always been in tune with my ancestors roaming around the country and following the buffalo herds. But I think that free spirit is something that you have to feed in the modern world as well. Being recently colonized, it's not many generations of adjusting to the systems that we all live in, which are skewed to capitalism and things like that. But yeah, just trying to live in a different way. In the modern world. Tate Bregman: How do you share your art with your community? If you're traveling a lot, do you share a powwows or do you have some kind of social media presence or your tattoos, anything like that? Libre Rocha: The thing is basically Instagram, all of us, I get most of my work and things like that through Instagram and just being in different cities and when I was on a constant tour, I would just post my schedule where I was going to be and people would be like, oh, when you come to LA I want to get a tattoo. Things like that. Creating that following and content and things like that to be able to live remotely and work everywhere you are. Tate Bregman: Is there a specific moment that stands out to you where you felt like your art or your tattoos have been able to have you connect with your culture or with other people in a more personal way?

00:21:14.000 - 00:23:30.000

Libre Rocha: Yeah, when I was in San Carlos on the Apache reservation doing a sunrise dance for Geronimo's great-granddaughter, my long-time first Apache instructor, Bob Stevens, I got to tattoo him underneath a tree on San Carlos, no wires, it was all wireless and just in a different way. And it was just a little, it was like Snoopy and the little bird, but he had Snoopy forever, but he was like, he's missing his friend. So just being able to do something little like that just and on the reservation at the ceremony was something that Bob was like, oh, I always look down and I think of you and I'm connected with you and things like that or ways I've used my art to connect with culture simultaneously. Teresa Morgado: Do you like tattoo—? I don't know much about tattoos, but the way you do it, is it, I don't know. Is there any connection to traditional tattooing methods? Libre Rocha: Methods? The methods, no. But the meanings and the symbology and the history of symbols and things like that, those are things that I specialize in and do a lot of specific symbology and old ways and old symbols and things like that. Teresa Morgado: And do you have any memories that stand out involving food or cooking?

00:23:30.000 - 00:24:39.000

Libre Rocha: I mean, my family has always been traditional cookers, making salsa with my aunts and making tortillas with my aunts and making fry bread with my nieces and nephews and my cousins and things like that. Just everyone is a part of making things and getting their hands involved. Teresa Morgado: Do you have a favorite meal from when you were growing up? Libre Rocha: Not a specific favorite. I would say nothing I can think of, just a little bit of everything. Taco, salsa, tortillas. Tate Bregman: Does your family have any special recipes for those foods you mentioned?

00:24:39.000 - 00:26:45.000

Libre Rocha: I wouldn't say anything specifically that I feel is unique, but we all cook. We all cook a little bit different. We use similar ingredients and we all like jalapenos and cilantro, so those things go into our food that some other families are averse to. Teresa Morgado: So you grew up with knowing your Native heritage and that was a part of your childhood, it wasn't something you discovered later? Libre Rocha: No man, they talk about the Mexicans and things like that and we were all, [unintelligible] always like we're Native Americans, that's who our ancestors are. And then trying to prove all the records, some truth to what's going on or the oral traditions to put paperwork with it and people and dates and locations and plot them across South Texas before Texas was even a state and things like that. So it's been a double-edged sword I guess as far as compiling documents and things like that. Teresa Morgado: In terms of healthcare, when you're feeling sick, what is your first course of action? Have you grown up with any traditional medicinal practices or just modern healthcare?

00:26:45.000 - 00:28:32.000

Libre Rocha: I would say there's no traditional medicine still passed down in my family in any way, but we're all the lad to go to the doctor. I don't know if that is anything traditional or not, but yeah, we're not ones to go to the doctor. Tate Bregman: Moving to more the mental health aspects, are you able to find, I know you said that you travel a lot and have hiked a lot of different trails. I do. You enjoy spending time in nature and do you try to prioritize that? Libre Rocha: Yeah, for sure. It's the only thing that keeps me sane I think in the world is spending most of my time outside and touching the ground in some way or in the forest or on a lake. My native people have a higher rate of suicide. My brother just committed suicide this year as well, my little brother. So it's just like all those go hand in hand with mental health and connection or disconnection from the land and native lands and things like that. Tate Bregman: I'm so sorry to hear that. I know this is a sensitive topic, but have you struggled with mental health at all? I know that it can.

00:28:32.000 - 00:30:44.000

Libre Rocha: I think everybody does at times and I definitely have felt that way before. It's been a long time. I've changed things about my life to keep from letting other people or outside sources steal my joy and things like that. And then creating boundaries with people and ways that keeps me safe mentally. We all still are emotional people and having lost my brother and my mother in the last year also are things that keep me having and flowing when it comes to emotions this year. But yep, I guess my answer to that, we're losing light here. Trying to get a little closer for the light. Teresa Morgado: Yeah. I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Are there any places specifically like that you go to for comfort in the natural world or a place that you go to that has a special significance in your life? Libre Rocha: Just connecting with the ground and the earth. Wherever I'm at. It doesn't need to be any particular place, just being feet on the ground, nothing over my head. What Tate Bregman: Was the most recent trip you went on, a hike trail that you walked?

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Libre Rocha: I guess the last longer trail I hiked was this spring in Lake Havasu, just hiking through the canyons, through Lake Havasu. Tate Bregman: Do you consider yourself a spiritual person at all? Libre Rocha: Sure. I think if you are connected to your family, you're connected to your homeland, you're connected to your ancestors, there's no way to not be spiritual simultaneously, basically be my thoughts. Tate Bregman: You talk about being connected to your family. Do you feel like your community, including your family and not including your family, have played a large role in your life? I know you said that you travel a lot and you're on the road. Is it hard to have a sense of community when you're not staying in one place like that?

00:31:58.000 - 00:32:42.000

Libre Rocha: I mean, I think in the modern world, we're all good with being connected to each other. No matter where we're, the internet and things like that, people still feel connected. Tate Bregman: Do you go to other tribes, powwows and events when you're on the road visiting other places? Libre Rocha: Yeah, I definitely, no matter where I'm at, if there are native things going on, I try to be present. Teresa Morgado: Were you able to do this when you were on the road, visiting different tribes, communities?

00:32:42.000 - 00:33:51.000

Libre Rocha: Yeah, I have friends in different reservations and relatives on different reservations all over, so I've stayed on lots of native lands for different amounts of time and do ceremonies and things like that along the way. Tate Bregman: Given all of this travel and involvement in other communities, do you feel like you belong in your home community back in Virginia? Libre Rocha: I mean Virginia is just where some of my family is, my immediate family is, but there's also, my dad has 14 brothers and sisters, so there's a good chunk of them still in Texas, so my family is everywhere. Tate Bregman: Do you feel more connected to your Texas community then in that case.

00:33:51.000 - 00:34:19.000

Libre Rocha: Currently? Sure. Tate Bregman: Makes sense. Given you're living in Texas now. Libre Rocha: Yeah. Tate Bregman: Do you feel welcomed by the non-Native people in your vicinity and non-Native communities given your work is so related to Native culture?

00:34:19.000 - 00:35:46.000

Libre Rocha: Generally? Yeah. Teresa Morgado: Do you find a sense of belonging, particularly with people who are also Lipan Apache or with all people of all Native heritages? Libre Rocha: There's surprisingly a good amount of us and from different walks in different places and have been, I've been in Tennessee and randomly got to hang out with four other Lipan Apache people in a middle of nowhere side of the mountain, Tennessee. So everyone finds each other and is aware of each other and then connects where they can and when they can because of the modern world. Those things overlap pretty frequently or they have the ability to. Teresa Morgado: What's the biggest similarities you see between all your friends in different Native communities or on different reservations? Is there a similar worldview that you all share?

00:35:46.000 - 00:37:39.000

Libre Rocha: I mean, yeah, I think of the land first and being a steward of the physical environment that we all come from and that everyone else is new to and just seeing how other people care for that land or do not care for that land. And then going from across the country, you can see, especially in the west, you're outside a reservation and it's kind of dead. And as soon as you get into the reservation it's kind of green because it's just the land is cared for differently than if you would just leave the dead trees and leave the dead things and don't tend to the land. So just seeing those stark differences with land management and connection. Teresa Morgado: Have you also learned through working with TTBP, have you learned a lot of these ranching and land management practices yourself? Libre Rocha: Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely always learning and just even learning the buffalo and how they communicate and being in the pen with them and things like that. You have, being up close with them, you really have to learn how you have to learn their communication styles as well. Teresa Morgado: Did you grow up connected to the land in the same way or ranching or something?

00:37:39.000 - 00:38:19.000

Libre Rocha: I've always grown up working the land and my family's always had gardens and grown a bunch of food and hunted and things like that. Tate Bregman: Have you ever hunted buffalo? Libre Rocha: No. There's only, Tate Bregman: It’s illegal now, right? Because there's so few of them.

00:38:19.000 - 00:38:52.000

Libre Rocha: I would say that's not true. You could probably kill one for, someone would probably let you shoot one for 3000, I think. Tate Bregman: Oh wow. Pretty expensive though for a buffalo. Libre Rocha: Yeah, I think that's what you could buy a buffalo for something like that. $3,000 for a buffalo Tate Bregman: Is there just such a low supply of buffaloes now?

00:38:52.000 - 00:40:38.000

Libre Rocha: There are genetically pure, and then there are modern buffalo, which are partially cow genetics, which most people get in the stores, I would assume the Native herds are genetically pure, but there's lots of buffalo ranch and buffalo burgers and buffalo for sale. Tate Bregman: You said that you sold buffalo meat when your aunt came down and helped you with that. Where did you source your buffalo meat to sell? Libre Rocha: We have a traditional buffalo harvest we do every year with Texas Tribal, and then those buffalo that are harvested in the traditional ceremonial way, they get processed and sold throughout the year for our buffalo sales or our bison meat. And we have a USDA-certified license to package and sell buffalo meat. Tate Bregman: Do you have anything else that you'd like to share?

00:40:38.000 - 00:40:50.000

Libre Rocha: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Well, Tate Bregman: Thank you so much for meeting with us. We really appreciate it. Libre Rocha: Yeah, Absolutely. Teresa Morgado: Yeah, wonderful speaking to you. Thank you.

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Libre Rocha: Bye-Bye.