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my name is Joshua furman. I'm the curator of the Houston jewish history archive at Rice University today is july 21st 2021 I am with Hannah and Bernard Lewis and their daughter and how are you all doing today? Excellent Hannah. Let's start with you. Tell us a

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little bit about um your parents and your early childhood growing up in Germany. Uh okay my parents were Ilsa Blumenthal Ballon and helmet Jacob balan who went by Jack when he came over the United States. Nobody is going to be called helmet over here in 1938.

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I I was born in Berlin and I lived there till I was seven and I must say thinking back on it, I was so protected by my parents. I didn't even realize there was something like anti Semitism and this was in 38 in Berlin. So anyway,

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so much for that, so much for that. What what did your parents, what did your parents do? How did your father make a living? He would work for a junior as was a junior executive and a company, a textile company that his father had also worked

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for. And my mother was basically a housewife. She worked in a bookstore part time and she found some very nice books. She was buy books and have some leather copied volumes of thomas Mann's short stories that she found that wow and do you have any vivid

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you know memories of of of life in Berlin before you left that stick out in your mind. Can you can you picture you know certain places or Well I could draw a scale map of our apartment that would probably be out of scale because I'm so

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much bigger now and but yeah, I enjoyed the park down down the street, the believer plus um and remember eating blueberry ice cream there and walking the walk, visiting my grandparents uh go into the bookstore with my mother and uh that's about it. I mean, you

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know, ordinary childhood memories. Sure. I remember putting up the black blackout curtains in 1938 when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and thinking, you know, we might get bombed, but we were good Germans were putting up those blackout curtains in the bathroom. I remember that. And can you recall

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you know, being a child in in Hitler's Germany, I mean, were there uncomfortable comments made to you at school? Did any of your childhood friends, you know, suddenly turn on? No, because by the time I went, by the time I went to school, they weren't and

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you didn't go to public schools. I went to a nice jewish school where my uncle and aunt were both teachers, so I was teacher's pet and there wasn't any, nobody ever made any remarks to me about being jewish. Mhm. We went to we went to the

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christmas tree and our uh our uh manager's apartment in the basement. I didn't feel jewish. I mean my dad always said Hitler made a jew of me, wow, because because your family was pretty assimilated Very assimilated. Uh huh. So so did they observe any jewish holidays

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at the time? Or I guess we did Hanukkah. Yeah, but that was after we got to the United States. I don't remember doing any of that when I was a little girl. Now you told me that your family left a week before Kristallnacht in November 19.

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So how did you, how did your family find its way out in time? Well that's you know, I've been reading two novels recently about young jewish girls in Germany at that time. One is called Let Me Go and the other one is called Wonderland Wonder which

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fell with A U. And they both uh highlight all the problems that people had getting out of Germany or getting in the United States because the State Department were very anti Semitic and didn't want a whole bunch of european jews, overwhelming the United States. So that

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was very hard to get visas in the first place and then you had to pay exorbitant funds apparently to get out of Germany, couldn't take any money out. But you could, my father must have been very good about realizing all this was going to happen because

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he had all our stuff packed under the ship before we even got on the ship. I mean all our furniture, all our silverware, all our crystal or china, everything anything except money, But my mother was very clear clever. She had won, 20 mark, gold piece wrapped

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in a ball of knitting wool with her knitting things. Oh my gosh! Um Yeah, I know the nazis were among their many cruelties. They you know, any families who tried to leave Germany had to pay a huge immigration tax. Um How did you, what what family

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contacts did you have in the States? That could, that could get you an affidavit? Well, when we had my father's brother, let me know my father's sister, we lived in Philadelphia with her husband and Children. We had my mother's only brother who was a chemical engineer

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and had gotten a job in 1936 in Pittsburgh with a steel company. And then we had my grandfather's youngest brother, uncle Alfred, who never always said he was a Christian. He was a colonel in the United States Army and is buried in Arlington cemetery that he

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would sign the sign the affidavits for us. And the mother had some uncles in new york too. I don't really know about those. There's a lot of family already in the States. Sure. And do you remember the journey, I mean what it was like on the,

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on the ship? Well, it was very luxurious, unfortunately, I was seasick most of the time, but dad enjoyed it. He went and got, he loved to try different foods. He was able to go to the dining room and try all these different things. He'd never eaten

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before. And Mhm. I resented it the fact because that was the when uh snow white and the seven dwarfs first came out, they were showing it on the ship, mother wouldn't let me go because she's afraid I'd be sick up there. So I didn't get to

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watch it till I was in my 50s. Oh, they had they had a showing of Snow White and seven dwarves on the ship. Oh my gosh, it was a very chip. Who was a new Amsterdam holland american. And we were traveling tourist class, which isn't first

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class, but second class, we had our own cabin and you know, I don't know, I didn't get out of the cabin much. Sure. Yeah. And you were, you know, you were you were how old again? 77. So born in 1931. And now it's november 1938. And

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were there, were there other jewish families on the ship with you that you remember? No, I don't have any idea. So you came to philadelphia and you and and and then what and what was put in school. And the first grade I had started school in

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Germany could read german of course, I couldn't read english and I couldn't speak any english. They started in the first grade because I had a teacher that spoke Yiddish and they thought I'd be able to understand her, but of course I didn't understand a word, so

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after that they skipped me to the second grade, and I remember looking the first word I looked at in a german in an english book was laugh and I thought that's just like these languages are very similar and after that about three months I was speaking

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english very well. That's great, that's great. And how did your, did your father get re established in business or how did he, how did he support the family once you re settled in America? Never very well, I mean he had all sorts of minor jobs, finally

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ended up working for a vending company, going to different towns and checking their rending equipment and everything. He unfortunately because of the World War One and the inflation and the whole mess after World War One in Germany he was unable to go to the university and

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he had to help support his family and so he had a wonderful high school education with a gymnasium and the auditory and everything but no college education was, his brother did have got a PhD, his brother in law had a PhD, his sister had a nursing

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degree but helmet had to stay home and support the family. Actually went to work for an uncle who was a banker. Uh huh. Yeah, very good. And um I forgot to ask you if you had if you had any siblings, only child. Okay we're gonna pick

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up your story again in a few minutes but now it's a good time to bring Bernard into the conversation. Bernard tell us about. Um your parents. How did you, how did your parents meet? They met after World War One. My father volunteered for the army because

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he wanted to get his citizenship. He was single. Uh He went to uh in europe, he was lucky that he survived the war. They were just about ready to attack a heavily fortified place when the Armistice was declared. But then he became a victim of the

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spanish flu and a nurse really was the one who saved his life. She's smarter than the doctors unfortunately, because she just pumped him full of lemonade, gave him plenty of liquids, plenty of vitamin C. Obviously he survived, he came back, he came back to um the

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United States. He started a business, he had left the business actually before he volunteered for the army. Yeah, he was a jeweler by trade. He was educated in Warsaw, he knew find gyms, gyms, jewelry was the main thing, not so much watches, but he learned the

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watchmaker tried trade fortunately because in 1932 that's what saved him because he had a very successful jewelry store Right in the heart of downtown Houston on the corner of Prairie and Fannin, which was the heart of the business area, established quite a successful business. But in

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1932, nobody was buying jewelry. They even took the pennies out of his gun machine in the front door. But he met my my mother and I think really it was arranged by the two mother in laws that my mother grew up in New york city. Typical

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immigrant story. Her mother had a little candy shop of some sort while her father studied the Talmud so that he was highly respected. But my mother went to work very early. She was one of the first female employers employees of the new york post or the

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american U. S. Postal service in new york city. So she got a vacation. Her favorite brother who she loved as much as her father was. Her favorite brother invited her to come to Houston where he was. He was one of the starters are as he was

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one of the three who established star furniture company in Houston before it was taken over. What was his name was? Lou lou gets lou gets sure. Okay. So anyway she came to meet her brother when she was on vacation. She wanted to see uh lou her

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brother. So I think the mothers in law arranged that she should meet this handsome young man who was a nice Jewish boy just back from the war single. And that's the way they met and they got married in Houston um like guess in 1920 because Phil

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was born in 21. My brother and we should bernard we should say your your father was joseph louis. Yes and your and your mother's name? Lena Lewis, her maiden name was. Lena gets, it was shortened from Gaza limits. Yeah. Right so Lena gets married Joseph Lewis.

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And what what what year did your parents get married? I think it was 1920. I'm not quite sure neither 19 or 20 because my brother was born in well in July of 21. So they must have got married at 19 I guess. And then and then

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when did you come along? I was a surprise. I came along in 1927 in between. Um my brother had a sister born two years after him and then four years elapsed. And there I came I think I was a surprise. Okay well it we'll take your

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word for it. Tell us about the house you grew up in or the houses you grew up in. Well actually I only grew up in one house but on two levels my father owned a very, you wouldn't believe it was on Crawford 2700 block of Crawford.

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And it was an old wooden two story house. He bought any in the beginning. When I first arrived he rented the upstairs and then he decided after I got there to move upstairs and he ran at the bottom uh portion. So that's that's where I grew

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up until I went to the usual three schools. It was a very jewish neighborhood. I went to Allen elementary, Albert Sidney johnston Junior High school in san Angelo Central High school. Very typical. Right And if you were I don't know if you've done this, but if

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you wanted to go visit 2700 Crawford today, what would you see all town houses? Some of the trees are still there. I remember it was very heavily lined with oak trees, but the whole, I mean that's near outlets within the loop and it's all town houses

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very upscale. But they kept, they kept as many trees as they could, which I appreciate. Yeah, yeah, that was the, that was the jewish neighborhood at the time. And where did your family go for synagogue? Well, we went to, we were my grandmother of course was

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was orthodox. She lived, my mother's mother, she lived uh here maybe 50 years and still spoke very broken english. It was mostly God, God bless you. It was, that's what it was very broken english. We went to uh Temple Emanuel, she went to a doctor to

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Sherman which was an Orthodox temple. Those two merged and became beth reassuring, I think you mean Beth El Beth El and right And Bethel was on was on Crawford also. So it would have been right, right. Was that would have been they had they had a

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Rabbi Blumenthal. I don't know if you remember. Yes, I remember him very well. He was during World War Two. He was a very um charismatic preacher. My father really liked him. Mm hmm. Did you have a do you have a bar mitzvah or a confirmation? I

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had a bar mitzvah. I don't remember a confirmation on that. And then tell us about, you know san Jacinto high school. I've heard so many stories in my work about, you know, all the jewish students there, you know, it's a high school that hasn't existed now

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for many, many years. It was around the corner from the old beth Israel, is that right? Yes, it was, it was and it was, it was a beautiful school and the teachers were excellent. Uh they were really first class. They dedicated themselves to teaching. I was

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especially interested or impressed. I guess I'm a ham actor but I love my english teacher where she had the peculiar name of Miss nellie bat. She was a spinster. She wore a black wig. She was a typical old lady teacher who loved her students and I

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loved her teaching because she taught me as young as I was. But she taught me some of Shakespeare which gave me an appreciation for the beauty of the american of the english language. So I wanted to please her and I was one of her top students.

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I also went to a drama class by nine advance. So you can see I was really a ham but also I was interested and I should have put it either first, well it must be the first place girls and second ROTC. So a bit of a

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split because I enjoy the ROTC. I enjoyed the discipline of it. And of course I think you've heard this many times. But santa center was known as, because there were so many jews there and so I had, I had a number of friendships, but oddly enough

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the two that were closest friends, one was a Viennese uh jewish boy who got out in time and the other was a roman catholic and we became very close friends. In fact, when I got back from optometry school, my Roman Catholic friend Bill Vaughn would come

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to visit me. We stayed a friendship all the way through um I guess so maybe 30 years ago, 20 years ago he would come up clean and I would examine him and we would talk about old times. Mhm. That's great. Yeah, I'm still here. I'm still

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here. That's really great. What about anti Semitism in Houston? You know, in those years? In the thirties and forties. I mean can you remember any incidents of uh you know schoolmate or somebody making remarks to you about, you know, being jewish or feeling uncomfortable. Oh sure.

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Don't forget in the thirties and forties Houston was a very jim Crow town and it was full of KKK especially in the thirties and late twenties because I could hear my father talking about it. My father one time had to sue someone for non payment. So

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I went before a judge and my father said when he saw the judge pulled out a cigar, the guy that he was suing hand, the cigar to the judge. He knew it was over because the judge and the guy was KKK my father remembers cake, a

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parade in full regalia marching down main street if you can believe that. Unfortunately it never dawned on me if I got on a bus, of course I sat in the white section because there was a white and a black section and if it got crowded in

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the white section, you could just move on, little pulley move this colored sign all the way back, let them crowd in. So the whites would have room. So it was a jim Crow town anti Semitism. Oh yes. Oh yeah, it was there. It was there um,

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one of the guys I was in ROTC with didn't realize I was jewish and he was talking about those derby jews. Uh one of the friends I had in high school who was quite wealthy and I went to his house one time I was invited to

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his house and I think much to his embarrassment, we went into a very fancy living room. His mother was there and she started talking about dirty jews and I know that he had to cringe. So did I. So there was always that underlying area, but I

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never, not once did I ever hear anything from Bill Vaughn, the roman catholic. Never uh, we were just good friends and he was a very bright boy. Unfortunately he became an alcoholic and that's the end of that story. He had, he went through rice graduated but

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it was downhill from there. Okay, okay, got it. Very good. So now um Oh I have a I have a note to ask you about being in the Boy Scouts. Yeah. Yeah I was in a jewish troop um didn't particularly enjoy it. I mean it was

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it was all right, went on a camping trip. It was alright. Uh Yeah it was a typical thing to do. I inherited my some old scout uniform because we didn't have any money. So whether it was my brothers or cousins, I have no idea. Got it.

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Okay great. Well now we have to we have to get the two of you together. So um how how is it that you two wound up meeting and falling in love. Who wants to tell the story you want? Okay. Um Go tell her tell her version,

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I'll tell my version. That's well Bernard College was at the foot of the street. Uh The street our house was on and a lot of the boys boarded in different, they didn't have any dormitories. So a lot of the boys boarded with families up and down

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the street this street the next street. And And they would walk down the street to go to school, it was about a half block or a block and right past my house. Well I was 14. The uh his class was full of veterans because it was

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44, and one of the veterans had been a spanish teacher and I was taking spanish, so I was talking to him about spanish, you know, trying to test my spanish and Bernard and some of his folks walked by and he noticed me not quite a figure

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in those days, I was, I've got to interrupt here because the guy told me who had passed by, hey you ought to take a look at that girl on the porch just before you get to the school, which I did, but that wasn't really, that was,

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I just, I saw her and I married her, but time passed and I was playing a baseball game, the two fraternities were playing baseball against each other and I happen to be at back and Hannah was with a bunch of girls way out there by right

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field, they were just dancing around of course they were watching us too and I saw this absolutely gorgeous girl with a long skirt twirling, I took my eye off the ball, I don't know what happened to the game, but it wasn't long after that that I

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asked her to a sum function we had at school was on a long concert, was an outdoor concert and yeah, so anyway, I happened to go down on the way to her house to pick her up her apartment, I didn't realize that I was walking behind

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her father and I said, hey I'm seeing this really cute girl, I'm taking her? So and so and I realized later it was her dad right in front of me, but that's where it started and it hasn't stopped yet, that's great. And just to provide some

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context. So so Bernard you came up to to philadelphia for optometry school? That's right, yeah, it was part of the family trade. I had a first cousin who went there, same school, my brother went there, same school. So when I came along, I mean at 16

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I didn't know what the hell I was gonna do. So they suggested it, okay, I'll do that. So I went, you know, I did that, you went up there, yeah and you got you got college in the interim before going up to, I went to the

00:27:06.050 - 00:27:29.300

University of Houston first got a few classes there and of course we had heard rumors that the University of Houston was gonna start an optometry school nowadays, every in every state inspector, particularly state university, there's a school of optometry, right? Almost all the the basic 48

00:27:29.300 - 00:27:46.580

states. Yeah. 50 50 states. Right, well okay, so we'll come back to Hannah in just a second. Um I lost my train of thought, there was a follow up question that I was gonna ask you, I remember now what it was. Oh um so your your

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father had lost the jewelry store? Depression? Yes, okay. And did he also become an optometrist? How did the family tradition of optometrist? No, no, he actually my first cousin uh started uh my uh my aunt's first son started and and really my father was uh it

00:28:12.230 - 00:28:34.210

was his sister and he was a good, he was close to her and he recommended it. That's where my cousin Nathan first started the whole chain of optometry. My father. Uh and you have to understand something about the depression. There was one business especially that did

00:28:34.210 - 00:28:58.810

very well during the Depression and that was the uh where you go to, not loans but where you give up your ring or something to shots. Now my uh the jewelry runs in my father's family and his in laws. He had a brother in law named

00:28:58.810 - 00:29:18.430

Ben Ben Lewis. Lewis's were, there was a lot of louis is a lot of Lewis's in Houston. Yeah, yeah. He had a place right across from the county courthouse and during the depression. Ben Lewis did exceedingly well in the pawnshops. My father said I can't do

00:29:18.430 - 00:29:35.180

that when a woman comes in and offers up her wedding ring just to get some money. He said I can't I can't do that and I always admired my father for that but he managed to get a lease that was renewable every year at Foley Brothers

00:29:35.190 - 00:29:51.580

who at that time was owned by a jewish kind of last name was Cohen and every year he had to sweat out. Is he gonna renew my lease? He was on a watch repair department. So during World war two, that's what saved him and our family

00:29:51.590 - 00:30:08.930

because he worked like a dog seven days a week repairing watches because new watches were hard to come by and he was very popular with the railroad men, which was just down the street on prairie not too far because the railroad men always wanted to check

00:30:08.930 - 00:30:24.880

their watches once he fixed them because that was very important. So there was a big western Union clock right by my dad's least area, which was accurate. As accurate as you could be in those days. So when a conductor or somebody would pick up the watch,

00:30:24.880 - 00:30:44.340

dad fixed, he would go right over to that clock and check the watch against that clock to be sure another world. That's great. Okay, so you, you went up to philadelphia for optometry school, you became enamored with um with Hannah. Now let's, let's hear the story

00:30:44.340 - 00:31:14.060

from, from Hannah's point of view. Well don't believe 12. There's nothing 16 and a love. And you just feel like if you spend the rest of your life with this person, you'd be perfectly happy he's recording this recording it. I graduated from high school number valedictorian,

00:31:14.060 - 00:31:39.470

which meant I had a scholarship tuition scholarship to the University of pennsylvania. And so uh, did the first two years here, but tailored my courses, I could transfer to rise. No, if you're careful about doing that transfer almost anything but you have to be thinking ahead.

00:31:40.470 - 00:31:58.410

And so um I mean they wanted either two years of german or two years of french. I'd had spanish latin in high school. I took the german exam at penn and aced it and then just started enrolling in upper level german courses so I could transfer

00:31:59.140 - 00:32:22.670

two years of german to rice and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna talk about your experience, Hannah at rice in just a second. So so then what year did you two get married, 1950, Wow. In in Philadelphia. Yes the Rabbi study and happened

00:32:22.670 - 00:32:37.320

to be one that my father recognized because he was a rabbi in Houston. And the man and the Rabbi said yeah I had to leave Houston because it was just too hot. What what rabbi was that? Do you remember his name remember the name? I was

00:32:37.320 - 00:32:54.290

very nervous at the time. Well let's understand Jack the ripper with the bible. I don't know but he got married at the end of the day you got married. I guess that's all that matters. That's funny. Alright so you get married in 1950 and you're you're

00:32:54.290 - 00:33:13.430

gonna come down to Houston and Hannah is continuing her education now at the Rice Institute. So Hannah tell us about rice in those years. Well it was very different from the way prices today. First of all they didn't have any girl storms at all. So all

00:33:13.430 - 00:33:36.110

the girls, there were basically local girls or again they boarded with families tuition tuition free of course until 65. It was completely tuition free and we have, I don't know, it wasn't, I don't think it was a premium education and some of it was very stupid,

00:33:36.120 - 00:34:00.890

especially the education courses which I was gonna take because I wanted to get a teacher's certificate. But that was, that was a total waste of 12 hours totally wasted of some, there was a history of education which got a watered down world history and history education.

00:34:01.710 - 00:34:20.680

I can't imagine what they were teaching there always 10 names of this and four aims of that before. Steps for this. Nobody ever taught anything about real teaching, which the first issue is discipline. If you can't keep your class under control, you have lost the whole

00:34:20.690 - 00:34:43.870

have lost them. Classic, classic problem. Um, were there any, were there any particularly good classes or memorable professors that you learned with? Probably carol Camden for Shakespeare was really good. And yeah, trying to think who else was really well, it's been a few years kate. You

00:34:43.870 - 00:35:06.800

both like Shakespeare. Yeah, I guess so. You both mentioned Shakespeare in this interview. Tell me about the literary societies at rice at the time and and and also you know jewish students being excluded included. How did that work? Well in the beginning, there were three uh,

00:35:06.810 - 00:35:31.500

literary societies and they were all Houston? Upper middle class girls in them, none of them jewish. So then they decided to Add one more to be a little bit more democratic. And that was Sarah lane and they had one jewish student, Edda Kalish, bubbles, Kalish, whose

00:35:31.500 - 00:36:00.880

father was a doctor etta went by bubbles. I'm just making sure we got. That was just great. She was the only jewish girl, you know, lit what they call them. Let's, so then they added four more to be completely democratic and some of them had jewish

00:36:00.880 - 00:36:19.230

students, some of them was the one I was in was didn't have too many jewish students had two or three and some of the others, some of the other new ones, the VCS I think. Anyway, some of them had more jewish students, but they're still weren't

00:36:19.230 - 00:36:45.930

a lot of jewish students. Right, right. Which, which society were you a member of Mills mary Ellen Lovett, literary society. Mills mary Ellen, love it. Okay, the rifle, the first president, yep. Yeah, sure. Very good. Um, okay, great. So, um, What about, you know, impressions of,

00:36:45.940 - 00:37:04.540

of Houston at that time because Houston and you know, the early 1950s very different than Houston today. Where did you, where did you live when you, when you came back to Houston as a married couple? Well, first religion, a Roger Parkman on what is now? Emancipation

00:37:04.540 - 00:37:30.450

Avenue, which was what the name of it then? Yeah, that's uh changed the name because dowling dowling used to be dowling now it's Emancipation Avenue. It was a garage apartment from a couple. It's a jewish couple called Mints I think. And yeah, mint Mint anyway, um

00:37:30.460 - 00:37:51.350

it was a one bedroom apartment. No air conditioning. Of course it was so hot when people came to see as we sit on the steps, the roaches were tremendous. Her first experience of really big roaches in Houston. I bought some bookshelves and reach and finished them

00:37:51.360 - 00:38:11.980

unpainted bookshelf. I lost Um almost £10 the first summer. Just sweated it off. Just just sweating. Yeah, Houston will do that to you. Um Okay. And I think did you did you become members at Emanuel at that time? Is that right? I didn't have any Children

00:38:11.990 - 00:38:31.790

and it was expensive to belong to a temple. Not till we had Children. Did we feel the necessity belong to a temple? Uh huh. Okay. All right. Why don't we why don't we talk about Children since one of them is part of this interview? Yeah. And

00:38:31.790 - 00:38:57.080

as part of this interview about Children, talk about the kids four and 4.5 years uh which eventually had my father in law asking don't they have television up there in Cleveland. Ah so were any of your Children born while you were still in Houston or was

00:38:57.080 - 00:39:24.280

it after you moved to Cleveland? Cleveland. Okay 152. And in 53 Paul. In 56 and K. and 57. Got it. Now I get the joke. Yeah. Now I get the joke. All right. So let's let's talk about this. Right. Why would a nice jewish couple like

00:39:24.280 - 00:39:55.150

yourselves move out to Cleveland texas? I uh it's really rather strange. It's hard, it's hard really for me to explain. It involves a lot of family. I had mentioned my cousin Nathan who went to college optometry, the first one. He um people thought he had a

00:39:55.150 - 00:40:14.990

very successful practice. He died suddenly just as I was coming out and getting I got my license a degree in the license open. Or do you just fell into something so good. It turned out he had nothing. He had, he owed everybody. He had nothing. It

00:40:14.990 - 00:40:37.630

was all a front. It was a bad time. And but he had as has crazy circumstance would have it About two weeks before he had died. He decided he would start a place in Cleveland. I mean, you can't imagine how primitive it was, but I did

00:40:37.630 - 00:40:59.050

want to get away. I wanted to go to, I've heard from a optical salesman, uh, optical representative. They needed an optometrist in Cleveland. All they had was an old iron nose and throat. That's the way they went in those days. I your nose and throat. Doctor

00:41:00.000 - 00:41:18.910

who was the best advertisement I could have ever had because they know nothing about examining eyes and he was way retired, Just sat on the porch and smoked a cigar and I would see people that he didn't know how to examine telling the truth. So anyway,

00:41:18.910 - 00:41:38.310

I I knew that there was a jewish family and jewish uh doctor and his wife and Children in Cleveland. So I was not the first jewish family to move to Cleveland. So we moved there with the expectation that the population would grow and more and more

00:41:38.310 - 00:41:57.820

jewish families would come in. That's not the way it turned out. But we found the home there. We've made some good friends. Our Children grew up together. I was very active and accepted in many, many different organizations. In fact, I served two terms as president of

00:41:57.820 - 00:42:15.090

the school board and 10 years on the school board, savings and loan. I was one of the founding members of that. So it's very, very active in many different ways. So we were accepted. It turned out that the jewish doctor, he was a new york, jewish

00:42:15.090 - 00:42:37.800

doctor. Why he settled in Cleveland. I don't know. But here's another example of anti Semitism because the main doctor in a small town happened to be very active in the baptist church. He was very, very good businessman. He wanted it all and it turned out this

00:42:37.800 - 00:42:58.220

jewish doctor was quite good, just as good as the first doctor, the hospital. But the first doctor owned the hospital and he denied the jewish doctor privileges. He squeezed them out to this day. I mean I served on the school board with this man for many

00:42:58.230 - 00:43:19.660

years But I knew the way he truly felt as a matter of fact one night in those days because of desegregation and that's a whole other story being the only jewish board member in east texas town during desegregation. So the meetings were very long And one

00:43:19.660 - 00:43:38.110

night it must have been about 11 1130. This doctor and I walked down the stairs together and he stopped me on the sidewalk and he wanted to proselytize me. He wanted to convert me At 11:30 PM. He's concerned about the state of my soul. Not only

00:43:38.110 - 00:44:00.150

that, but here's where an comes into the story because his daughter Jill and Ann were best friends. I could see them in elementary school at recess, walking around with their arms around each other, great friends. But he told me as part of his proselytizing that he

00:44:00.150 - 00:44:21.590

had Jill in tears when he told her that anne was jewish. She didn't know whether she was gonna, he was worried about her soul and she, he frightened Jill into the ending of that friendship. They became friends later on when they were adults. But this is

00:44:21.590 - 00:44:35.080

what that man did to his own child and it's very hard to forgive something like that. And I told him of course that I was strong in my face as he was in his, I understand what he was trying to do, this was his calling, that's

00:44:35.080 - 00:44:52.330

what baptist do, they go out, spread the good news and all that. But no, let me worry about my soul, he doesn't have to get on my stump now. And every time I think about it, my blood pressure goes up and that's what makes me affected

00:44:52.330 - 00:45:10.000

and then her friendship. Yeah, this is, you know, an interesting perspective on, you know, jewish life in a small texas town where you know, you're, you're you're one, you're the jewish family or one of only two jewish families and this seems like a good time maybe

00:45:10.000 - 00:45:27.320

for you to talk a little bit about growing up in, in Cleveland with, you know, and what that was like for you from your perspective. Yeah, most of the time we lived there, we were the only jewish family. So of course all my friends were methodist

00:45:27.320 - 00:45:48.950

baptist church of christ catholic. Um and um it just really wasn't and it wasn't an issue. I mean I was, I was an I mean they, they knew that our family was kind of different, but I think that the ways our family was different was my

00:45:48.950 - 00:46:06.300

mom was teaching at rice. You know, there was a highly educated woman with her own career, you know, my dad was the town eye doctor, so everybody knew him, my older sister who ended up going to rice was, you know, really good student and so we

00:46:06.300 - 00:46:24.000

were known, I mean sort of as an unusual family, but I don't know if it had so much to do with jewish, although there is a Cleveland historical society and someone did post this family portrait of ours. It's really nice portrait and said something about the

00:46:24.000 - 00:46:45.000

first jewish family, you know in in Cleveland. So maybe I wasn't as aware of the perception as as you know as there was. Um but yeah, he was talking about my, my my friends and I had, you know, I had great friends. Um nobody actively tried

00:46:45.000 - 00:47:06.000

to to convert me. Um I don't know, I mean maybe it hadn't filtered down to the kids as much, but I did go to church services with a lot of my friends because usually they had youth groups that met on Wednesday and that meant that you

00:47:06.000 - 00:47:24.120

could get the car and you know go and go, you know pay tribute to whatever the church was doing, but then go meet your friends for cokes or whatever. So um you know I was, I was, I was pretty fully integrated. Um There's only one thing

00:47:24.120 - 00:47:44.030

that I remember that's sticking with me now. I just remember this is that there was some note in middle school that a friend and who was maybe not such a good friend showed me that another girlfriend had written something about anne and her jewish shoes and

00:47:44.070 - 00:48:06.410

which shoes those were, I can't really picture them, but I've never heard of jewish shoes and um, I didn't know if that was, I didn't know what that meant anyway enough for me. So it's a strange comment. What about, you know, like christmas time easter, you

00:48:06.410 - 00:48:22.860

know, on the one hand, how did you navigate, you know, being the only jewish family in town, you know, did all the christian things and the jewish things. So we had Monica and christmas, we had easter and Passover, but my mother was very upset when she

00:48:22.860 - 00:48:47.130

saw that we had a christmas tree. Yeah, when you come to our house, yeah, we had both. I mean we, you know, culturally always were jewish um, and religiously and stuff and I guess most ways, but mom was, mom and dad had different ideas about the

00:48:47.130 - 00:49:07.650

religion and dad was more observant and mom was more like I want a christmas tree and you know, that's, that's something I want and that's really more german than it is christian and um, you know, easter being more rite of spring, uh, that along with Passover.

00:49:07.650 - 00:49:29.240

So some things were just presented as we're going to do both. Yeah, yeah, you know, finding your way in a, in a, you know, a place like Cleveland texas Hannah, didn't you sing in the church choir? Uh, yeah, the methodist church cried not as a young

00:49:29.240 - 00:49:58.740

woman later on and as I said they needed Altos. Yeah, yeah, okay, hang on a second, but just don't have us. So tell me, how do you provide a jewish education for your Children living out in, you know, Cleveland texas, you drive them into religious school

00:49:58.740 - 00:50:22.830

every saturday or sunday dependent and until they finally revolt as all, as all Children do. But that's, you know, that's quite a commitment right for, for folks listening to this who don't know the geography from, from your home in Cleveland to, you know, the emanuel Rice

00:50:22.830 - 00:50:53.720

University areas, How far of a drive? 2055 no, 55 miles from Cleveland to rice. I know I've done it in a, they must have moved rice. No, well king would, would be somewhere in between, wouldn't it? Yeah, that would be 25 minutes, but this is 55

00:50:53.720 - 00:51:13.480

minutes, Believe me, Yeah, it was a long distance, it's a long distance drive. You know, you really have to be committed to doing something like that. And again, that's really a compromise. And of course most of our married life is consisted of compromises, but I wanted

00:51:13.480 - 00:51:33.220

the kids to have a jewish education and, and, and Hannah did too, but I wanted to belong, always wanted to have a membership in a synagogue or temple and she didn't really care. So uh, the compromise, she said, okay, we belong to a temple, but I

00:51:33.220 - 00:51:54.550

don't have to attend. Okay. Mhm Yeah, that's, that's how the compromise worked. And, and again, you know, from your perspective as as a kid, you know, I'm sure most of your peers that, you know growing up, you know, they live probably in the mire land area,

00:51:54.550 - 00:52:12.110

you know, or what have you or maybe the memorial area and they all went to school together and they all probably, you know, hung out after school together and were you made to feel a lot like an outsider? Yeah. Yes. I mean it was, it was

00:52:12.120 - 00:52:30.570

so totally out of my usual orbit and you know, nobody knew me because I didn't go to school in Houston. Um My cousin, my first cousin Adrian Fox is another part of our family. Um she and I you know would meet at religious school and so

00:52:30.570 - 00:52:48.720

I had that friend and then I had another friend who we, we still talk about it, we're friends today that she lived on and the east part of Houston which was not as money as some of the folks who came to um Emanuel and she said

00:52:48.730 - 00:53:04.270

we we always click that I was nice to her, she was nice to me and what's funny about that as our boys, our sons became really good friends and we re met my friend and I re met, we hadn't seen each other and I don't know

00:53:04.280 - 00:53:21.160

30 years or we met at Emmanuel's Creek Becker school because both of our boys were going there, we looked at each other and said, oh are you and we recognized each other. But yeah, that was not easy and also you know, think about when we had

00:53:21.160 - 00:53:39.150

to get up on saturday morning and poor mom is driving you know every day except sunday to Houston, you know for rice. So she'd drop us off and then pick us up afterwards, she'd go to her office and uh yeah, we didn't want to get up

00:53:39.150 - 00:53:55.610

that early on a saturday, especially, you know, as we got older and there are lots more social activities on friday night. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I'm sure and I'm probably, you know pulled you away as you said from social activities with your with your peers in

00:53:55.610 - 00:54:13.910

Cleveland and kind of commitments that you had to make. Yeah, I will say say one more thing real quickly as I did make a friend through my cousin who I'm still friends with today and we correspond and she lives in Seattle and she's a midwife and

00:54:13.910 - 00:54:29.260

she did something that I thought was so fantastic, which is, she made a dress and wore it every saturday and if you couldn't believe it in those days because it was a fashion show, you know, everyone wearing their, you know new clothes every weekend and this

00:54:29.260 - 00:54:48.420

friend wore the same dress, you know every every week, which was a statement. Yeah, certainly was um Bernard, you had hinted at this earlier and I definitely want to give you an opportunity to talk about it more. Although I know it may be a difficult subject.

00:54:49.250 - 00:55:10.760

Um you talked about being you know the only jewish member of the school board in Cleveland texas during the era of desegregation. And I just you know I can't imagine how contentious and controversial that must have been and I'd love to hear your retelling of that

00:55:10.770 - 00:55:36.660

period. Well it was It was traumatic. Uh people just couldn't understand what had happened although the Supreme Court had told him in 1952 what was going to happen, it was going to take time but it was going to happen. So we had um as in almost

00:55:36.660 - 00:55:56.640

every town in the United States including boston which is one of the worst towns of really disputing this decision. But we had angry citizens piling into the school board meetings and I felt like the seven of us were just backed up against the wall because people

00:55:56.640 - 00:56:18.760

were unreasonable, they weren't listening. And unfortunately they had a an attorney oddly enough whose name, last name was Cohen and his grandfather, her father had a map of Jerusalem all over his face, but this attorney was a methodist and he was representing them and you know

00:56:18.760 - 00:56:38.150

I've often thought about him since then because I really feel if he had any courses in constitutional law which of course he had to have, he went to U. T. And got advanced the bar exam, he knows what the constitution says, he knows who is the

00:56:38.150 - 00:56:56.380

final authority. So here he was protesting. He wasn't the only only attorney protesting but he was egging them on. He was giving them hope and in his heart of hearts he knew that this was gonna happen now. It was a real hairy time. And I got

00:56:56.380 - 00:57:20.470

some terrible phone calls and even some guys that I knew his friends saying oh we're gonna take guns to school. No, no don't do that, you're gonna hurt somebody you care about had nothing. Although one time, one time after a really really bad meeting I was

00:57:20.470 - 00:57:32.900

that on the sidewalk and some of the members were actually checking to see if there wasn't a bomb under their cars. It was that bad a time. It was late at night and this friend of mine who was a good friend of mine, we were neighbors

00:57:32.900 - 00:57:55.120

for years. He made a crack about me selling the sheets to the KKK. Now that was that that hurt me a great deal because we were neighbors and friends, our Children growing up together. Our wives knew each other later on later on he had his own

00:57:55.120 - 00:58:17.200

way of apologizing. He would call and of course we talked as friends afterwards after the hate finally dissipated. They still talked with each other but I knew he had a way of saying I'm sorry every birthday he and his wife would get on the phone and

00:58:17.200 - 00:58:34.430

they would harmonize happy birthday to me. I knew what he meant, I understood what he was trying to say and the ironic part of it is I think none of us realized at the time that it wasn't gonna be a black white problem in our public

00:58:34.430 - 00:58:58.990

schools, it was gonna be hispanic problem schools and the rights were gonna be the whites were going to be a minority Because we're Hispanic population, it's about 90% Hispanic in the school district. Let me just say one more thing about the Jewish education for Children. I

00:58:58.990 - 00:59:16.720

think it's very important for Children to have a religious education in some religion. So if they don't want it later on they know what they're discarding and they know what to do about it. I mean they need to have the background to understand either for or

00:59:16.720 - 00:59:33.840

against it or be neutral against it, but they need to have the education and let me say something else about being the only jews in Cleveland several times it's happened several times people would come up to me and I think probably to Hannah separately but I

00:59:33.840 - 00:59:59.350

know for me and say I admire your family so much because we were a tight family and there are a lot of our aunts, friends whose parents had split, divorced drunk drink too much or whatever, I'll get it later anyway. Um the way I feel it's

00:59:59.350 - 01:00:23.250

about religion and I don't believe in for, I don't believe in anyone religion, let's put it that way because I think it's too big for the anthropomorphizing it all the time and you know God is a father and he's gonna be mad at you, we do

01:00:23.250 - 01:00:41.990

this or that it's all, it's all us trying to understand something we don't can't understand, right? Yeah. That search for truth and that search for meaning well we're almost out of time. I want to just ask you one or two final questions. So did you ever

01:00:41.990 - 01:01:00.650

think about leaving Cleveland at any point? I mean, you know the other opportunities, I'm sure to teach and other opportunities to practice optometry in, you know, we thought about it one time and well we would have had to sell our house and one person who came

01:01:00.650 - 01:01:17.080

to look at it, I didn't want it and then we just gave up the idea we wanted to get the kids into better schools was what it was, I mean better schools in Cleveland School District. Sure, yeah, but you don't, you don't today, it's it's July

01:01:17.080 - 01:01:34.980

of 2021. You don't live in Cleveland anymore, is that correct? We've been left Cleveland in 2008, now, so it's been a while and there's a lot of friends, we knew that they have done it. I mean don't forget our ages. Yeah, practically everybody. Yeah, sure you're

01:01:34.980 - 01:01:54.700

now living in the Kingwood area, is that right? Uh huh in a retirement community, do you go back to Cleveland ever? I used to go back to Cleveland because I had three other guys that I played bridge with when we're all retired, one baptist, one methodist,

01:01:54.710 - 01:02:12.530

one who originally was a greek Orthodox went to the methodist, but he would go into Houston for greek Orthodox services as well. Uh so it was a pretty diverse group, but we all liked each other, we all within a couple of blocks of each other and

01:02:12.540 - 01:02:31.370

we had some good fun, good laughs and pretty sorry bridge, but two of those are dead now, the other one's moving into our same community that we're in, which we're very happy about, I'm sure I'm sure you must be and there's really hardly anybody left from

01:02:31.370 - 01:02:53.580

Cleveland we're interested in, I would like that and also that there's nothing more flattering than being asked to talk about yourself of course. Well we, we we've done really well so far, I want to end by asking you to reflect on, you know, the special or

01:02:53.580 - 01:03:14.500

unique perspective that you get on life, um being, you know, the member of of of a minority in a place like Cleveland texas where um you know, you, you have to adapt to to fit in more than, you know, other folks might in a situation where

01:03:14.500 - 01:03:37.150

you don't stick out so much. So I mean the course of this conversation and reflecting back on, on, on that period in your life? What what special lessons or values do you think that that experience has imparted on you and uh Bernard and Hannah and also

01:03:37.150 - 01:04:01.290

you and what? Go ahead. Well, I think if I had not met Hannah and married a jewish girl from Newsom, I would have never moved to Cleveland, but Hannah would have gone with me anywhere anywhere and she's, she's very adaptable, she loves to talk to people,

01:04:01.300 - 01:04:23.680

she's very open and we established really good friendships, it was a good life, we made a good life for ourselves and I have no regrets about that at all. I was but the point is that Hannah was with me all the way, she was the one

01:04:23.680 - 01:04:38.680

who traveled, not me, she was the one who gave up a lot. Although I have to say that some Sundays, yes, I would drive the kids into Houston to religious school because by that time there was another jewish or half jewish family in Houston, they had

01:04:38.680 - 01:05:00.680

two boys and I would drive them as well as my son and do a religious school on Sundays for bar mitzvah lessons interesting, wow from Cleveland. Anyway, I'm a very adaptable person. I can adapt to any kind of lifestyle except camping. I'm not a camp, I'm

01:05:00.680 - 01:05:23.690

not an outdoor person. Right, That's true, that's absolutely true. Anyway, I'm very adaptable and I'm very extroverted, don't talk to anybody, hmm well that's something that you need, I would imagine being in a, being in a small town and I'm gonna, I'm gonna offer you the

01:05:23.690 - 01:05:47.660

last word, talk about your parents and what they mean to you and talk about the childhood that, that you had. Well, I feel not quite right being the only child who's able to speak because my siblings are so great, we're all very close and I think

01:05:47.670 - 01:06:03.970

I'll say these things and hopefully it will represent them in some way to, I think, I think some of it will, which is that we've always been proud of our parents, both of them and um, and and what we've gotten in life, a lot of what

01:06:03.970 - 01:06:27.750

we've learned and absorbed is through our parents. Um, and so even though growing up in a small town, we were in this protected and very, um, stimulating academically and intellectually and musically through our parents, but I would say growing up in Cleveland, I mean, even though

01:06:27.750 - 01:06:44.410

I don't think we got top educations, um, you know, through high school, I got other educations, I would think my siblings might say the same thing. We dealt with a lot of different kinds of people. It wasn't, you know, one group of, you know, upper class

01:06:44.410 - 01:07:02.790

or middle class or however you, you categorize that it was all different people and um, that helped me, not necessarily in college, you have to work hard, but in my work life. Um, I always had very good jobs and part of it I think was being

01:07:02.800 - 01:07:22.860

adaptable to working with different kinds of people. So that's what I would say. I don't regret it at all growing up in Cleveland and I don't know what my siblings would say about it, but maybe something similar. Maybe something similar. Well, this has been a really

01:07:22.860 - 01:07:38.700

fascinating conversation. I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to spend time with you all and and to try to record you know, these stories and I'm sure that people will enjoy listening to this for years to come. So thank you all for your time today. Thank

01:07:38.700 - 01:07:42.730

you. Thank you, josh. Okay.