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Today is November 25th, 2024. My name is Karis Lai, and I'm here today with Leonard Chan on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. So, we are going to start at the—with the basics.

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So, could you please state your full name and where and when you were born? Leonard Ng Chan L-E-O-N-A-R-D. N-G. Chan, C-H-A-N. I was born in Houston, Texas, April 8th, 1984.

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Awesome. And do you know the story behind your name? Like, how your parents picked it? Yes. It was pretty much just go with the alliteration of my dad's name, which is Lumen. And that's pretty much it.

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Nice. So, you're like a—you have a similar alliteration there going on? [LC: Yes.] Okay, awesome. And, do you have, like, a Filipino or Chinese name? There's a Chinese name.

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But I think only my—my grandparents gave it to me. Don't really use it at all. Chan Ahn-Ming. The funny thing is, my dad's Chinese name is Yao Ming. So, a lot of relatives were very disappointed in early 2000 when they heard Yao Ming was

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visiting and they got someone that was 5'7", 5'8" show up. [KL: Laughs.] That's really good. And so you mentioned you were born in Houston. Have you lived in Houston your whole life?

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I lived in. Well, I lived in Sugar Land essentially. My childhood years, lived in Houston '84 through '88. So, my toddler years in Sharpstown, moved to Sugar Land in '88. Then went to Rice, so that––I

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still voted in Sugar Land––and University of Houston for graduate school. I moved to the Austin area from 2000––August 2009 through June, July of 2018. Nice. So you've stayed in the Texas area?

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Yes. Okay. The longest stretch I've been out of Texas was six weeks during an internship on Capitol Hill, right before my senior year of college here. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. And do you have a sibling?

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Yes, I have two siblings. My brother is Andrew, two years younger. My sister is five years younger, Ann Margaret, she's a school teacher in Boston.

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Oh, nice. Okay. So, you are the oldest? Yes. What was it like kind of growing up being the oldest brother? Pretty much being the responsible one. Although my sister would beg to differ.

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She's much more independent, but I was pretty much charged of making sure no one gets in trouble, including amongst my peers, like in the high school. There were times where my friend’s parents, if they knew they were with me,

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they didn't have—their curfews were lifted. Heck, my house was used as a cover story on where they were actually were. It helps, though, when they actually would tell me that I was the cover story because their parents aren't happy. When I was like, "I don't know where they're at" when they

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call. And it's like, "Well, we just dropped them off there an hour ago." Also like, I was student council from fifth grade onwards, president of my elementary school. So I—I also couldn't talk until I was like four.

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Apparently runs in the family. At first, I just blame my parents for mixing up five different languages in the same sentence. So, I was a year behind all my peers. So I could––had a driver's license before a lot of my classmates,

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could vote before all of them, and so forth. So, you have the benefits, and I guess the not so— [LC: the burden} the burden—the burden [LC: the burden and responsibilities]. Yeah, that makes sense. And you said you were president of your elementary school? [LC:

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Yes.] I didn't even know that was a thing. We did. Fifth grade, elementary school. We did student council for fourth and fifth grade. Didn't get elected fourth, fifth grade. We––the student body was a student––we ran

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a school store. We would actually––the fifth grade teacher would actually have us call the school supply company. And it's like, "All right, we're going to order these." And we also did food tasting of the new cafeteria items and also

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our budget was new so I think [00:04:27] we bought Legos for the kindergarteners. That's so funny. That's great. So even early on, you were kind of in the political realm. It's like—just like having the confidence of your peers and trust that makes a difference,

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I feel. Mhm. Did you feel like, I guess you said you didn't get elected fourth grade. What was the difference between fourth and fifth grade? Just––I don't know. It's like––it's the

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same group of people [laughs]. I think there's just more––there's also more spots in fifth grade. Gotcha. No, that makes sense. And I guess a little bit more on your siblings.

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Are you guys very similar in personality or very different? I would say each one of us are unique. My brother is the complete introvert. My sister is the––much more charismatic than I am and much more

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talented. And I get on with just grit and–and hard work. Like––yeah, my brother is the completely quiet one. My sister is the one that gets all the attention. And you're just, like, gritted through and you're like,

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work hard and— Yeah, and the like––my sister and I did a lot of the same things growing up, except she did everything better. I was vice president of the high school.

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She was district officer for the surrounding Houston area. I did karaoke, she was All-State choir, for example. Where I was a camper for some things. She was actually the camp counselor.

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That's funny. So you were outshone by your younger siblings? Like, another example was yearbook, rookie––I was rookie of the year my senior year, she was editor in chief. The thing is, a lot of our––my friends had younger siblings her age.

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So we kind of had the same social circles, and I wouldn't––my parents were involved, but not as, like, integrated to the other social networks, amongst the parents' groups.

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So gossip travels faster amongst the little siblings faster than they did amongst ourselves or the parents. That's so funny. That was where the real drama was at. Yeah. We're like, "How do you know dad?" It's like,

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"Well, so and so." I'm like, "Oh, okay." That's a little unnerving too, I guess. Yes. And wh-what did your parents do when you were growing up?

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My dad, is—was an electric engineer. He retired back in 2016, 2017, around that time. I stayed with the same company from 1978 or so until he retired with Bechtel in Houston.

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My mom was a stay-at-home mom until my sister was in elementary school, and then she became a cafeteria school worker just because the schedules matched. She loved working with kids and loved cooking. So, it just was––the schedules matched up, even though she did get a degree in business

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back in the Philippines. Mhm. Okay. Gotcha. And so your mom is Filipino and your dad is- No, both my parents are Chinese blood. [KL: Okay.] But three of my four grandparents were born

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in the Philippines. [KL: Okay.] And then my grandmothers actually were classmates together growing up. And they just happened to stay connected. And that's how my parents got–got introduced to each other later on as adults.

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My dad is the—I would say my dad's Catholic. But all of his siblings are Protestant, essentially. My mom's Protestant, her entire family. Okay. Gotcha. How–how did that work out between your two parents?

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Never made a diff—like I grew up—my dad raised—we were raised all Catholic. My mom would go to church with my dad every Sunday, but she never converted. And it was just never was an issue, I feel.

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Gotcha. Okay. So they kind of, like, agreed to raise you guys Catholic, but she would still identify as Protestant. [LC: Yes.] Okay. Interesting. And how would you kind of describe your parents' parenting style? Got much more relaxed as with each sibling [laughs].

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I would say they let us do what we wanted. Like, let us pursue our own interests. Like, very hands—like, supportive, and they wanted us to do well and very kind of emphasize

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education, but at the same time, let us pursue our own interests. Like, I had comments when I was here as an undergrad, like, "Whoa, your parents are letting you be a political science major?" And I'm like, "Well, my brother is a fine arts major." And I think it's also a product

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of my dad's side of the family being a lot of educators. So, my [00:09:27] sister was, like, encouraged to be—go into teaching. Like, my grandmother was a schoolteacher. My cousin and so forth.

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I think like my—my sister might have had a different experience because my grandparents moved. My sophomore year of high school, towards the end, we actually moved in with our grandparents just to help support

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them and such. So, having four sets of adults per se for my younger siblings might have changed their experience a little bit more, whereas I only did it for my last two years of high school and we were pretty independent.

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They're like, "Yeah, just come home by dinner. You can walk home." Whatever. There was a lot of trust. It wasn't, like, helicopter parenting or anything like that, which also kind of maybe have clashed with,

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my peers or even extended family of, "Oh, you're letting your kid do that?" It's like, "Why not?" And I think that really helped me coming here, because I think a lot of folks that kind of struggle their freshman year here at

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Rice is they don't know how to handle freedom. They don't know how to handle the independence. At the same time, like, I noticed my parents got more lax with each passing child, and yet my two siblings would probably still like,

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"Ah, they were hovering," and whatever. I'm like, "You have no idea." Yeah, I totally get that. Like, when I saw, like, my sister got a phone so much earlier than

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me, and she was like, "Oh, like, they're so strict." I'm like, "No, no." Yeah. It's like—like, they encourage our activities, and they like—my—when I took that internship in DC before my senior year

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of college, they're like, "Hey, it's a once in a lifetime. Don't worry about the costs. Just do it." Summer camps, like, granted, I would say. Not until late elementary middle school.

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My parents were comfortable with just, like, letting us be on our own. Gotcha, okay. And I guess, like, I was wondering, too, like, did you grow up celebrating any, like,

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Chinese holidays or do traditions like that? Chinese New year? [KL: Okay.] Heck, we have a—my aunt's the one spearheading it, but made me in charge because this is being taped, so [laughs]. It's stressful to run a Zoom family reunion

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on Chinese New Year weekend every year, but it's worth it. Gotcha. Zoom sounds like quite the time. It was supposed to be in person, but the pandemic hit and they were like, "Oh, let's just do Zoom from here on out." And I'm getting text messages from

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the cousins of, "Hey, you need to cap how long you should speak." And then their text is like, "Just let him be." To—I'm like, "If you guys want to run it, you're free to do so." The leadership position is open.

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Yes [laughs], but it's worth it. No. That's great. It's–it's the—also the–the pros and cons of technology. But I would say the biggest challenge, especially—this is my dad's side of the family is they're very international.

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So, trying to find a Zoom time that meets the German side of the family, alongside with the Hong Kong side is a challenge, and the ones that sometimes are stuck are the ones with the toddlers on the East Coast. And since I'm on the topic, like my uncle married someone,

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a German woman—that my aunt. And they're still living in Germany. My—one of my cousins, second cousins married a Jewish guy, gentleman in New York.

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My sister is married to a Swedish American. So it's a very, like, melting pot and a lot of traditions just being blended together. But we're all still family on my dad's side.

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Wow, that's really interesting. Did your extended family have, like, comments on them marrying outside of, like, a singular like, like Asian or not? Because that would mold was already broken before I was born.

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My aunt Susan married my Uncle Ron years before I was born. My Uncle Ron, he actually teaches Chinese poetry at Stanford, and he speaks the best Mandarin out of everyone, of course. I—I can't speak, or I can—the only thing I understand

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is food items. So, [00:14:29] that was in the '70s, so it's already kind of like—it's nothing unusual, although some other folks might comment. It's kind of like a given now.

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Gotcha, gotcha. Now that makes sense. And you mentioned that you can't speak. Like, what language do you mainly speak at home, or did you learn any— So—my I can only speak English. And my Rosetta Stone on Spanish has kind of fallen off by mid year this year.

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My grandmother tried to teach us Chinese, Mandarin over the summer when, before they moved in with us, but it never took. My sister was actually put through Chinese school. My cousin Matthew took Japanese in high school.

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But I think some of my older cousins, I would say Tagalog, Cantonese would be the two primary. If there's other languages. My parents can speak Taiwanese, Tagalog.

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Mandarin, English. The thing is, like I mentioned, they will just blend it all in one sentence. And I always struggle with languages. Like, as you know, there's always a D1 distribution for foreign language.

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I avoided that like the plague to protect my GPA. If I had to take a language, it would have been Spanish. I do regret not being a little more proficient. Like, I can still read Spanish. That's what I took throughout high school.

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But otherwise I can understand when my parents are talking more or less on certain languages. A lot of my parents social circles are Filipino, so I have no idea what they're talking about.

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Half the time when at the dinner table, they still my parents still do like a monthly, dinner with their Filipino friends. And you're just, like, trying to guess at, like, the 50% that you can.

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Ignorance is bliss at times, though. That makes sense. I also was wondering if you could tell me more about your experience growing up Catholic. Like, did you have a big community around going to church,

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or was it just like a side part of your life? I would say I was a weekly attendee. I was also a religious studies major here and Catholic Student Association president, so keep that in mind.

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Co-president. My co-president would not appreciate it if I took all credit. But I would say growing up as a Chinese—like that was actually part of my topic for my application here. Like, "What makes you unique?" I was like, "Well,

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most Cantonese-blood individuals that are Christians aren't Catholic." But at the same time, m-more—my familial ties are like just my background, family background. They grew up in Manila, so that's a heavily Catholic country.

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A lot of the folks in the Sugar Land area, if they're Christian, Asian, would go to, I believe it was Fort Bend Community Church, and so did my cousins. So, there were—and it was a very diverse crowd,

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like Catholic, meaning universal, like it kind of spanned across all ethnicities and races. And I would attend every Sunday and also attend the Confirmation classes in Sunday school whenever it was scheduled from first grade

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onwards. And the sacrificial mentality was what really resonated with me. Just sacrificing for your friends, for your community. And it was not anti-intellectual. Like,

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some folks, their charisms are much more mystical—spiritual. Mine is much more the intellectual side. So, just conversing with folks, we still keep in contact. Heck, we have a text group amongst, like four of

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us, plus one of my Jewish friends. Talking about Astros and smoking meats, and barbecue. Like, during the off-season, it turns from a Sports oriented text group to more of a "Let's talk about food and also some

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theological items here and there." So yeah, I would say it was part of—my strong part of my identity. Still is. And the love yourself—love your neighbors as yourself is huge part.

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And I learned as I [00:19:27] got older, it mattered—like, even though I do have the—I know the basics of the theology, it's much more important on how you treat others. Like, after I left Houston,

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I was two years—like, I found community, at the church, still. Just happened at one of my high school classmates was sitting at pew behind me and was like, "Hey, we need help teaching the high schoolers." And that kind of provided my anchor for the next nine plus years

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there. Even when I moved back, I got guilt trips. I wouldn't say guilt trips. I wanted to come back. I felt really bad for the seniors I left behind. So, I chaperoned a—their–their post-graduation trip

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to Tiger Georgia because I was like, "I'll come back for your trip." They're–they were really unhappy I left, because I had the same group from their freshman year onwards. So, leaving right before their senior year, was something I was like,

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"I know, I'm sorry." But just by coincidence, my—one of my high school classmates, I haven't seen her in, like, four years behind—like, six years from high school graduation to that moment and just got recruited.

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It's like, "Hey, we need some more volunteers." And providing an anchor, especially when I was trying to get to be settled in Austin, like being in Austin. Being an outsider, like I knew a lot of folks in Austin,

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but at the same time, it's a rougher transition from just going from going to a completely new city in your mid-20s for the first time in your life. Like, I had ten friends from high school that went to Rice that I could see,

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like on a weekly basis. But being an adult, transitioning out of Houston, new city, everyone has their own life. It was rough.

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Yeah, no, it's definitely like—I feel like I've talked to so many people who they say, like, "You got to take advantage of the friends that you make in college because afterwards people are just like, have like so much of their own lives," like what you were saying.

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And Austin is a very different culture. You're trying to figure out where to eat. Where's the grocery store? And just—I would say I was spoiled at Rice.

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Like, they would take out our trash, clean our bathrooms. I went on a business trip, for a week, and I didn't take out the trash for a few days before. And I come back. There's flies all over. I'm like, and it's around 11:00 PM,

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and I'm like, "It's way too late to go to Walmart. I have to go to work in the next day. Oh, well," just rough it, like, stereotypical. "Oh, geez. I don't know how to have life skills."

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That's so funny. Were you one of the boys who did laundry in college? Like, you—you're like, "I've done laundry before." I've done laundry before. [KL: Okay.] Like, I knew—some of my classmates never did a load of laundry in their lives before,

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before coming here, which was like, "You just put it in there. Like, if it's sensitive, like, if you depending on your clothes, you might have to separate your darks." Stuff like that. But like, Rice spoils folks here.

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In all honesty. Definitely, definitely. I was wondering, you mentioned like that Manila is a very Catholic place. Do you have any ideas as to why?

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Being like, because it was under Spanish occupation until the Spanish-American War. So it's like just the colonial history of it all. It's just interesting that my mom's side is all Protestant. And a lot of my dad's siblings are still Protestant,

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so. But it's just, like, just part of the culture. Mhm. Why didn't you like—I mean, did you ever consider Protestantism or were you always like just more attracted to Catholicism? I would say I was always more attracted to Catholicism. I think

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it's like even if people fail in it, the principles still hold true. And like, I think it's there needs to be—What's the best way to put it? It's like, the institutions also need to come to

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face that, "Hey, there's still room for improvement." And acknowledging his own shortcomings, just like how it expects individuals to do so. [KL: Mhm.] Like the first wave of the, like, sex abuse scandal happened when I was in high school and it was treated as

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like, "Oh, that's just media hype. It's just somewhere way off in Boston or and it's [00:24:27] only like X percentage." [KL: Mhm.] And when the second wave came, and I knew people—I wouldn't say close but

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like I don't know details fully, but I know people that have been victims. And when that second wave came in 2018, 2019, I was like, "The more you just blame the media, the more you just say it's someone else.

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Like, look at them. What about them? It's you're not resolving the issue." And that has kind of shaped my views on politics as well. [KL: Yeah.] Because I like my first, like, I guess world

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memory that like super young. But at the same time, you remember these things just like how—some folks, like, their biggest memory as a child was nine over 11. My first world memory, like global impact,

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was the fall of the Berlin Wall. [KL: Mhm.] That just—the sense of optimism, the sense of "Hey, we have to change these maps in the classrooms. Oh that globe that you got for your Christmas gift.

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That's, that's out of date." Like just the optimism of the early '90s even though I was super young. [KL: Mhm.] You could feel it. [KL: Yeah.] Of, "Hey, democracy is on the rise.

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There's no more threat of nuclear warfare. We somehow ended the Cold War peacefully." Your teachers would talk about it. My parents would talk about it. So, that kind of shaped a lot of my world views of, like, this optimism, this idea of this—the world

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can collaborate together for a greater good. And then I remember watching, like, at the baseball card shop, pretty much the end of the Iraq—the first Persian Gulf—My—I do remember the

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Persian Gulf War was like, "Oh, this was an easy victory, peace in our time" type of vibe of, tyrants aren't going to triumph in this generation. [KL: Mhm.] So, because like, there was like a

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television at baseball card shop. And that's where a lot of us would visit, the comic book store, which is kind of an antiquated idea now. And I didn't grow up with cable, so a lot of my

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television watching was PBS. And a lot of sports. So. Gotcha, gotcha. So I guess kind of then going into your, like, Rice education, you majored,

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you triple majored—[LC: Yes] in political science, religious studies and history.[LC: Mhm.]What led you to get the triple major? Did you start adding as you went? Did you [LC: I just took] what you wanted to do.

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I knew I was doing political science. [KL: Okay.] Religious studies was like, I thought it was just going to be like, "Oh, I have to take a few RELI courses." And back then the curriculum, like, the requirements were a little, let's face it,

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a little looser [laughs]. Like—and I—the first class I took, I did not realize 300-level class meant junior level and I didn't take the prereqs, but I survived. And I was like, I turned an audit class to an A,

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just great, just take the A-minus. So, and I just took a lot of classes that kind of revolved around like church-state relations, like the role of religion in the fall of the Soviet Union, the role of the church

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in Latin America, some Reformation and early Christianity courses. So it kind of just all blended together. [KL: Yeah.] My history major,

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I was always considering doing history, but what sealed it for me is like I was talking to the history advisor before my final semester. And he's like, "You're one class short of a history, major. Just finish it." And I'm like, "Okay."

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Yeah, might as well. But they're all interconnected. Gotcha. No, that makes a lot of sense. I'm, like, super interested in that.

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Like intersection between how, like, studying, how like the power, I guess, of religious institutions and then how then—like, I feel like there's always a gap between, like, maybe like the what, what people are learning and

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teaching and then I guess how they [LC: practice it.] Yeah. Practice it. So. So a few more things. It's like there was, what really helped getting the triple [00:29:27] major was Christians and Jews Under Medieval Islam, which accounted for all three.

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But like I would say, the—in grad school, one of my classmates, his interest area, he was a PhD track. I was not—a lot of his early work was like the religiosity of voting.

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He was trying to look at some of the factors that affect voting patterns on religious affiliation and so forth and so on. To his dismay, he was also one of the early scholars on the alt right at the University of Alabama.

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I actually helped review some of his early manuscripts, some for two of his books at least, got credit for being a reviewer. And he's like, "Well, my publisher really wants me to add this chapt—"

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Like the first book he—I helped him with, just—just doing a read through was "Right Wing Critics of American Conservatism." It's like different tracks of different—it's an intellectual history of different movements in the United States on the—on

00:30:41.910 - 00:30:54.720

the conservative side. And the final chapter was on the alt right. I'm like, "Hey George, do you want this chapter in your book?" Like, "the FBI might have a file on you on this or something." And we joked and he's like,

00:30:54.930 - 00:31:11.920

"Well, I think the FBI already has a file on me if I wasn't a professor. Heck, I think they probably already do." And that chapter. This was in 2014, 2015, and it had been expanded into a bigger book. And this was right during the, Steve

00:31:11.920 - 00:31:25.700

Bannon, Stephen Miller, Trump ascension and drew a lot of attention. And so his advisors, his was like, "Hey, can you do this? Publishers and so forth, like keep working on this topic because this

00:31:25.700 - 00:31:34.660

will get your tenure fast tracked." That's so funny. It happened to work. And that's that's pretty crazy, especially given like the time span too. Just the trajectory of it all.

00:31:34.760 - 00:31:50.880

Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. I was wondering also like, how did your time at college change or solidify certain political views that you held? Oh, I would say it helped mature in

00:31:51.230 - 00:32:09.840

them. Like, I would say, politically, my emphasis has always been good ethics. Good policy. I would say good ethics, good execution, and good policy are what I look at. I think somebody that is dishonorable that's

00:32:09.840 - 00:32:23.940

championing a cause you believe in, actually discredits that cause. Like, if he's our champion, how do we have credibility on these other topics and issues? If they just caught for bribery or corruption,

00:32:24.030 - 00:32:45.780

like, do I really want to be associated with that? I think some views that have shifted the—during college was I—was I was here during the Iraq War, and I still—I respect

00:32:46.160 - 00:33:02.880

General Powell and I—and that's why I kind of like, supported the initial justification of the war in Iraq. But granted, I was in high school at the time when it all first started. At the same time, it's like learning what we learn now.

00:33:02.960 - 00:33:14.950

Like, we—we have to have understandings, like people are working with the best information that they have in front of them. At the same time, if we make the wrong calculations and wrong judgments, there are consequences.

00:33:17.870 - 00:33:35.740

I'm—I would still say a lot of the principles and foreign policy. I'm still aligned with that, like the Powell doctrines, like, "Hey, we should have a reason to go in for any military action, have an exit strategy, like have clear objectives and do it as

00:33:35.740 - 00:33:56.350

humanely but quickly as possible." I would—also—and it's also the biggest like mind shift is realizing this is not just an academic exercise.

00:33:56.630 - 00:34:11.700

I think I've learned that a little bit more later. Especially my first professional job is this is not just an exercise of hypotheticals. This is actually affecting real people, the policies, the ideas that we're putting down on paper.

00:34:14.520 - 00:34:29.780

Like what we say and do our words have meaning. Our words can spur action, and we should always be conscious of that. It's [00:35:00] not being,

00:34:30.120 - 00:34:44.520

quote, "a snowflake" or being soft or whatever. It's like, real people are affected. Mhm—mhm. No I think that's a good reminder, especially with the way that humanities can tend to just feel like—feel like you're just in an echo chamber of like,

00:34:44.520 - 00:34:56.980

theory and like you can't see— The actual people being affected. It's like when you're like, "Oh, these people's like—" Those are still people with families.

00:34:56.980 - 00:35:15.700

Those are still individuals. And we also have to set realistic expectations because if we oversell and embellish what we're promising or who we are, that's just going to lead to much more issues down the road.

00:35:15.760 - 00:35:28.650

I don't care about what it looks like. I want to know what the substance is. And I would say, like looking back though, there are a handful, if you look deep enough,

00:35:29.030 - 00:35:42.680

there are a handful of, letters to the editor of the Houston Chronicle that you can find that I au-authored, but I regret none of them, even if it's the one that's saying that we should push the high school baseball playoffs until after everyone graduates, so no one's

00:35:42.680 - 00:35:59.020

playing a baseball game the same day they graduate. Nice. Good to know if I ever want to dive into the "Thresher" Archive. Or the "Houston Chronicle" Archives. Oh, wow. I'm interested in your experience studying humanities at

00:35:59.020 - 00:36:11.710

Rice. Given, like, now, I know that my experience has definitely been like, I know this is a STEM-heavy school, but I think there are pros and cons to studying humanities. It was a very collegial atmosphere, even in political science,

00:36:11.710 - 00:36:25.360

where you expect like, "Oh, we're trying to one-up each other." No, everyone got along for the most part because we were all in this experience together. We weren't like—no one, benefits when we're holding back talent.

00:36:28.050 - 00:36:47.060

Granted, I was like–I was like one–I was the one of 2 or 3 other people that in my cohort in political science that did not consider law school at all, which made me a little bit of a unicorn. On top of that, I think I

00:36:47.060 - 00:37:06.860

was my graduating year, one of the very few Asian males in political science. And was there from day one, which was also contrasting because I was like, "Huh, I guess everyone else

00:37:06.860 - 00:37:22.900

is in engineering." Not surprising. So I guess my social circles were much more—I wouldn't say it's diverse regardless, but I was like much more leaning

00:37:22.900 - 00:37:36.520

towards, like I did not—I was not part of any of the, like, Asian student groups here. There was just not a natural fit to just merge into it.

00:37:36.950 - 00:37:56.000

Mhm—mhm. No that makes sense. Did you know like what you wanted to do post-college coming in? Not really. Like the thing is if you walk around a job fair your junior year, like no one's really looking for any political science or history majors.

00:37:57.110 - 00:38:14.610

[KL: Mhm.] And I was like, "I don't want to be a lawyer. [KL: Yeah.] I couldn't imagine myself being a staffer". Like, actually, when I was younger, I did dream of going to the State Department, like

00:38:14.910 - 00:38:30.630

Secretary of State, type of track, just dreamers' world. What held me back was lack of foreign language. Two, is I have a weak stomach. I'm allergic to way too many things. I did take the Foreign Service Exam twice.

00:38:30.680 - 00:38:47.130

Once right after grad school and once a handful of years later, passed both times, failed the—passed the test, and failed the personal narratives. I'm not sure if my life was too interesting or not interesting enough. But

00:38:48.410 - 00:39:04.570

like, I was thinking more of, like, civil service type of— [KL: Okay. Got it.] Looking back, I think I actually, I think my essay, my application here is like, like being able to affect lives, at a broad level with

00:39:04.570 - 00:39:14.700

just a stroke of a pen. Yeah, definitely. And is that why you decided to go into public administration next? Well, there was also a recession.

00:39:14.910 - 00:39:29.790

Or, no, grad school was all honestly a way to just postpone joining the real world. I think grad school does increase your floor by quite a bit. I [00:40:00] was looking at between UH and A&M.

00:39:30.030 - 00:39:47.920

UH gave me a full ride for a Master's program with stipend.[KL: Mhm.] My grandparents that were here were getting older. Being more able to show up for the family events was a big appeal. And I had a lot of friends that were still undergrads that,

00:39:48.490 - 00:40:04.440

so I was like, "Might as well," especially if it's a full ride. Like, they actually sent me two acceptance letters once. "Hey, if you want to be a PhD, I was like, I didn't even apply for that. And here's the Master's." And they're like, "Well, if you want to stay four more years, you can.

00:40:05.040 - 00:40:16.000

You don't need to make that decision today." So, I did my public admin masters and just kind of stayed in the Med Center area during those two years. Gotcha. And how did you choose public admin?

00:40:17.020 - 00:40:34.610

Because I think it's just the app—like, a lot of the stuff that you learn in undergrad is more like abstract theoretical. I think grad school, especially professional masters, gives you an opportunity to actually learn how to apply that [KL:

00:40:34.880 - 00:40:49.800

Gotcha.] to more concrete examples. And my cohort in grad school, I would say there were four of us. There were some that were part-timing and just staggering their classes.

00:40:49.990 - 00:41:01.850

But I would dare say there were four of us that were—that was there essentially from day one through graduation and finished up in two years. So it was a very small program at the time. They're growing like no other.

00:41:02.650 - 00:41:20.040

They just integrated an undergrad program this past year [KL: Oh, wow.] for public administration, public policy. And yeah, it's also they're—like, you can have the greatest policy in the world, but if you can't execute, what's the

00:41:20.110 - 00:41:33.320

point? Very true, very true. I guess how did you decide to pursue your current career now? I was unemployed [laughs] after the 82nd legislature

00:41:33.320 - 00:41:53.480

worked for Sunset. I was job hunting. Honestly, I was probably too young and too green to work for the Leg at that time in that role. And there was a lot of other personal stuff going on at the time, but I was unemployed. I think there

00:41:53.480 - 00:42:11.430

was the—a recession was happening, like there was budget cuts. Also, everyone was—and sent a bunch of applications everywhere. Going to a worker's comp orientation,

00:42:11.430 - 00:42:27.590

not worker's comp worker—unemployment insurance, unemployment orientation, because you can't collect unemployment unless you go to orientation, was so, so—it was like, "I need to get off of this as

00:42:27.590 - 00:42:42.860

fast as possible." Because just the way that the shame that the system tries to bring on people kind of just compels—was like, for me, I was like, compels me, it's like— Anything but being here.

00:42:43.060 - 00:42:50.360

Yes, anything but being here. I don't need to be in a class on how to type. I don't need to be in class. Oh gosh. Yeah. What you have to do, they make you do an orientation.

00:42:50.620 - 00:43:04.680

It's like pretty much like these are the resources. So, for and so on. You also need to show proof that you're applying to X number of jobs each week no matter what it is. [KL: Okay.] So, it was

00:43:06.830 - 00:43:24.250

like—people were—it's like, there's enough pressure there of like, "You need to get off of this." But at the same time, you send out dozens of applications and you don't hear anything for months because HR departments are notoriously slow.

00:43:24.250 - 00:43:39.290

[KL: Right.] So, I got a—finally got an email with Cedar Park. and I forgot what I even applied for, so I had to look up my cover letters. And then it was a good.

00:43:39.470 - 00:43:54.430

It was a good atmosphere. I was there for six and a half years, but when I first started, I was like, "Hey, I still was doing stuff I can apply." I understood, I knew my limitations of what I knew and what I didn't know.

00:43:54.430 - 00:44:10.820

Get out in the field and understand what the folks are talking about. And just learning the job and—and fire departments are much less stuffy than the State Capitol or Capitol Hill.

00:44:12.280 - 00:44:24.910

Because I think there's a much more familial atmosphere in the fire service. Yes, there's a lot of pettiness. [KL: Okay.] It's like working for a frat house with no alcohol. [KL: Really?] Like, each fire station is like its own little,

00:44:26.720 - 00:44:33.140

family unit. That's so funny. Because they are stuck with each other for 24 straight hours or more. Right, I guess they are just, like, sleep-deprived together.

00:44:33.610 - 00:44:44.980

They're cooking together. They're watching, arguing about what petty TV show to watch, asking who's dating who. Stuff like that. It's much more familial. I think that was a good thing.

00:44:46.840 - 00:45:01.420

Unless, like, people are still like. Like, sure. People are like, "Oh, I want to get this promotion" or whatever, but it's not status-driven, I feel. Like it's not—that's not the predominant culture. [KL: Gotcha.] People would rather

00:45:01.640 - 00:45:17.930

avoid it is, they would rather just like, "Let's work out. Let's go to run this medical call. Let's serve the public," fundamentally. Like people might say, "Oh, I took this job for the schedule or

00:45:17.930 - 00:45:35.880

because I–I whatever." But at the same time, it's like you can do those type of gigs outside of public service. But what I would say the public driver for those is like, "Hey, we can have fun while still making a difference." [KL:

00:45:36.380 - 00:45:52.140

Yeah.] I heard this second hand, one of the firefighters said, "Yeah, we over there—It's like we used to be against having—I used to be against having an award ceremony. It seems like really cheesy and so forth. But then I was talking to a veteran that served in the armed forces before coming to

00:45:52.140 - 00:46:03.340

firefighters. Like, something like that makes you realize, 'Hey, we can still do some good after seeing all this stuff that we did overseas.'" So, it is like a very uplifting experience for him. [LC: Yeah.] That's great.

00:46:03.780 - 00:46:22.360

At the same time, I had a firefighter said, "Hey, this is my third failed CPR child CPR call in a row." And I'm like, that wears on folks. [KL: Yeah.] And it's something that they need support on.

00:46:22.870 - 00:46:38.280

Do you feel like there's inadequate support right now? I think it's—there's always going to be improving. Texas is actually in the forefront [KL: Okay] in taking care of its first responders.

00:46:38.700 - 00:46:53.900

Like, they don't need to say, "It came from this one incident." It's taking an actual expert advice of, "Hey, you can have an accumulation of incidents that affect you. It doesn't have to be one mass shooting type of call."

00:46:54.310 - 00:47:11.390

A couple of years ago, I actually helped co-write a book chapter on the legal and legislative issues in first responder mental health with a lawyer in–in the Pennsylvania area. So Texas, like in the two departments I've been part of in the fire service have put a strong emphasis on mental

00:47:11.390 - 00:47:28.490

health. Standing up a peer support team. Having—like, my original department has a psychologist, on retainer. They do mental resiliency evaluations as part of their annual checkups.

00:47:28.980 - 00:47:41.280

Here in Houston, we also have a peer support team. We have two psychologists on staff. There's resources available. Of course, no matter how many resources you have,

00:47:42.140 - 00:47:59.140

there's always someone that might be afraid to ask for help. Like, as for myself, when I was in Cedar Park, I got the American Red cross to administer psychological first aid training to the regional first responders, help coordinate that. I went through suicide

00:47:59.140 - 00:48:17.830

intervention training myself. And I think that those resources can sometimes get overlooked, but there's an increasing acknowledgement that these things need to be taken care of. And I think Houston and Cedar Park

00:48:18.260 - 00:48:30.140

and the rest of Texas has placed the appropriate focus on trying to shore up those programs. No. That's so great to hear. That's really, honestly very inspiring.

00:48:30.400 - 00:48:44.690

What other things have you like kind of worked on with them besides like trying to get adequate like mental health resources? When I was in Cedar Park, we actually partnered with University of Texas Nutritional Sciences Department.

00:48:45.620 - 00:49:03.980

And at first I was like, "I'm the accreditation manager." One of the accreditation items like, "Hey, we need nutrition training." And I approached them like, "Hey, we can use some nutritional because part of their, like, coursework is like providing training

00:49:04.130 - 00:49:21.850

to live audiences." And I was also put in–in the same emails like, "Hey, we're willing to like, do research if you all are interested." And that turned out to be a three year collaboration until their lead researcher left for another university and took the funding. But

00:49:22.010 - 00:49:40.750

the dietary diaries, because cardiac health is really important [00:49:27] for first responders. And—and they also signed off on sharing their medical physicals, blood work, all the privacy protected.

00:49:41.320 - 00:49:56.270

We don't have access because HIPAA and all of that, but for research purposes, anonymize. So, they realize how much beef jerky and sodium intake firefighters were having because a bag of beef jerky is not supposed to be eaten in one sitting.

00:49:57.990 - 00:50:17.780

So, and they did presentations on the department's personnel on their own data, and they're like, "Your sodium intake, the BMI and the body fat percentage." And you didn't see jerky at the stations for a good handful of months because I think they were scared and realized,

00:50:17.780 - 00:50:32.270

"Hey, this is not just like some far off department. This is our own data. It's saying we have poor dietary habits." What else? Like, for Houston, I would say my,

00:50:33.380 - 00:50:48.290

like, my, what I'm most proud of, is actually other people's work. Like, we when I came on board in 2018, we had two hazmat units for the entire city of Houston.

00:50:48.750 - 00:51:07.930

We account for granted—they only run calls that involve chemicals. Okay. We account for two-thirds of the chemical facilities in the state, and that's assuming—that's making the very optimistic assumption that all those facilities are reporting.

00:51:07.930 - 00:51:25.410

[KL: Right.] In comparison, like, granted, in central Texas, they're doing more than just chemical calls, but there were a handful more units. So, we enlisted the University of Houston's Hobby School of Public

00:51:25.440 - 00:51:44.420

Policy, my alma mater, and for a capstone project, a couple of capstone projects. They were analyzing hazardous materials risk and response times for the city of Houston for Hazmat. And February 2021, the first expansion of the Hazmat

00:51:44.420 - 00:52:00.970

team since the 19–since 1979 happened. So, we put in a unit on the northwest side of town, so, using data and using the analytics, also getting the students there to collaborate and talk with the actual responders made a difference,

00:52:01.360 - 00:52:14.690

understanding the data. [KL: Yeah.] And just building the case, like, if you make public policy I feel is shouldn't be run by emotion, but make a case so compelling that it's really hard to to deny.

00:52:15.090 - 00:52:24.820

Mhm, no, that makes sense. What is like some other things that you have learned, I guess, about first responders having interacted with them so much that other people might not know?

00:52:26.310 - 00:52:44.510

Oh, the thing is, it's like it's—like I tell them, it's like, "Hey, a lot of folks think what you do is routine is really exciting, but once you're in it for so long, it's like you just treat it as so routine, you know?" I would

00:52:44.510 - 00:53:13.760

say what...I would say it's the amount of how much things cost, in terms of equipment and, and when you're saying, "Oh, we want to cut taxes, we need to cut the waste." It's like most

00:53:13.760 - 00:53:31.960

of your government services are there for a purpose. Where—like a fire truck these days costs at least—a decent fire truck, a million dollars, and it takes 2 to 3 years to build, even when you do have the money,

00:53:33.860 - 00:53:48.980

and the training that goes behind it, the maintenance, it's like, "Sure, you bought the fire truck, but you still have to maintain it." The equipment, like the gear, you can't just buy that off Amazon for a couple hundred dollars. And there's always advances in science

00:53:49.060 - 00:54:06.540

and trying to make sure it just protects you on the scene, but also doesn't harm you because, just like how—a good example is, like bleach, it's good cl—to use bleach to clean things, but too much exposure to it, it's going to cause harm.

00:54:06.660 - 00:54:18.970

[KL: Right] So a lot of the personal protective equipment, there are trade offs involved and that's still being studied. I would say it's not an exercise of—also

00:54:18.970 - 00:54:39.120

for the first responders—of it shouldn't be an occupation dominant by just pro-athlete [00:55:00] males. [KL: Mhm.] This occupation, it's more about, like, skills and mental as much as it is about physical.

00:54:39.840 - 00:54:59.100

[KL: Right.] Who cares if you're the strongest person there if you are entering the building in the wrong entrance, right? So—and it's kind of sad that I think the fire service is behind construction workers and police officers in terms of

00:54:59.100 - 00:55:14.250

female representation. And it's not an issue about DEI, versus—but there's still an atmosphere in certain departments I feel. I heard so many stories from my colleagues from other departments on

00:55:14.250 - 00:55:27.020

discrimination and harassment they face. [KL: Mhm.] And they just attribute that to as, "Oh, that's just station talk." [KL: Mm.] But I think that's one issue in terms of retention.

00:55:27.920 - 00:55:40.690

Okay. That makes sense. Like, just the toll it takes on folks. [KL: Mhm.] It's like, "Hey—" It's not like, "Oh, we need to have x number of women." It's like "No,

00:55:40.690 - 00:55:59.360

we need to make the environment welcoming." [KL: Right.] For people that can do the job. [KL: Right.] I fear the fire service is going to struggle because, like, I think we made strides, I think, towards minorities,

00:56:00.990 - 00:56:17.980

not just ethnic, but also the gender, religious and—minorities—is there there's going to be struggles. Do you feel like...I feel like I've read so many articles about how also people younger generations are less interested

00:56:18.150 - 00:56:30.580

in going into like first responder jobs. Have you like noticed? Oh yeah. Much fewer applicants than there were traditionally. I think part of it is

00:56:35.240 - 00:56:54.090

more knowledge on the risk people are facing. Also the more structured lifestyle that involves. And also, I believe that the hiring processes for a lot of departments

00:56:54.470 - 00:57:16.060

and a lot of states is geared for a years' past. Learning that you're not going to have a—if you have the job or not within seven months, like you're putting—on like for civil service departments, for example, you test for a job, That job might only have two openings, but there's 50 people

00:57:16.060 - 00:57:33.030

that are on the list. And that list might stay active for 12 months, and there might be more openings. But if you're like, number ten on the list and you find a better opportunity and it's been months or there's not even an opening yet,

00:57:33.030 - 00:57:49.420

they're just keeping the list active. Like, "Yeah, sorry. Thanks, but no thanks." And there's like, I just came from a Department of Defense, evaluated their fire department a couple of months back. And it was like trying to find ways to fast track things like,

00:57:52.210 - 00:58:07.100

get—reduce the lag on when you're hiring somebody, when you know you're going to hire someone. It's like going through all the background checks and all of that. It takes time, but it also you lose candidates.

00:58:07.520 - 00:58:25.960

Gotcha. Because it's just like, it's just old fashioned. And generationally, people are less likely to know the difference between screwdrivers than they were ten years ago. [KL: Mhm.] It's much more a digital world rather than a

00:58:25.960 - 00:58:36.000

hands-on world. Right. No, that makes sense. So the nature of work also changes. I was wondering, what was your experience like running for Texas House

00:58:36.380 - 00:58:53.410

district? Like, yeah, [LC: Laughs] I guess like, what were like, some of the main things that you took away from that experience. It—I would say number one is—actually two things. One, just a deep appreciation of the friends and family

00:58:53.410 - 00:59:07.590

I have, the true friends and family that would do anything like go to bat for me. [KL: Mhm.] Because there's sometimes like, you know, someone that's like, "Oh geez, I really hope they don't become a teacher or a doctor." [KL: Yeah.] Whereas for me,

00:59:07.630 - 00:59:25.970

I was overwhelmed by the level of support by my friends and family. Even the ones that couldn't donate financially were very encouraging. And two is like, I'm proud that I never did anything on the campaign that forced—forced me to go to a confessional.

00:59:26.290 - 00:59:44.600

Because [01:00:00] I was like, I'm not going to embellish anything, I feel. I'm not going to attack anyone unless I—like, I was not–I was not going to speak a false word about anyone else

00:59:45.840 - 00:59:59.750

of the other candidates. [KL: Right.] So, one of the other candidates, after the fact, a couple of years later, my parents were doing a road trip to Los Angeles. My dad ended up having to do emergency gallbladder surgery on Christmas

00:59:59.750 - 01:00:14.450

Eve in Las Cruces, New Mexico. One of the other candidates actually invited me for Christmas Eve dinner. [KL: Oh, wow.] Deeply appreciative for that. Treating me as like a human instead of an asset. I would say on a negative side of what I learned is one,

01:00:14.450 - 01:00:33.390

a lot of people jump to conclusions without actually knowing the people. [KL: Mhm.] Or they're trying to treat you as an asset or as a tool for their own ends or means. [KL: Mhm.] Some things that also made

01:00:33.390 - 01:00:51.670

me lose some faith in a lot of people unfortunately. Just because of, like I said, a lot of those earlier comments of some folks just didn't really treat people as people.

01:00:52.750 - 01:01:08.260

It's like, "Oh, they're–I don't care what happened to those illegals. They're illegals anyways." Or something like—like even before running for office, I heard that at a, like a county convention in—in Williamson County. They're like, "I don't care if those illegals get shot.

01:01:08.260 - 01:01:29.230

They're illegals anyway." And other people at my table were like, "What?" But he was just treating it as part of the course. And—and keep in mind, this was right before the pandemic hit. [KL: Okay. Wow.] So, I was also—so, immigration

01:01:29.230 - 01:01:50.880

was a huge issue, especially in the more rural parts of the district. [KL: Yeah.] I was told "You don't care. You don't have kids, so you don't care about the border." I was also like, some of the slurs

01:01:50.880 - 01:02:07.930

used were unexpected. And I ran essentially to, like, one—amongst my peers, we realized I had more flexibility to do anything.

01:02:09.900 - 01:02:24.150

Also, apparently I have to squeakiest clean reputation when I was in school here. They can't find any dirt to dig up there. Like, there's, like, I actually had a conversation with one of

01:02:24.150 - 01:02:41.160

my classmates when–when I was visiting in DC. I was like, "Was I social, but had a clean, a squeaky clean reputation?" Like, "Yeah, they're probably the most so, of the people that actually got out of their rooms." [KL: That's so funny.] So, part of that,

01:02:41.300 - 01:02:58.110

like it was—when I was asked why I was running. It's like, "This is my community." When I was asked, "So are you pro-Trump or anti-Trump?" Like, "Well, I'm pro-Sugar Land. This is my hometown," which was enough to get that.

01:03:00.690 - 01:03:16.280

And I was probably the most open about being critical about Trump during that time. I was like a lot of the values did not resonate with me from that–that administration. And I was like, "Hey, I need to show that, hey, it's still

01:03:16.280 - 01:03:35.590

possible, to run on a more positive policy based platform of education, ethics, transportation, [KL: Yeah.] public safety." [KL: Yeah.] And

01:03:37.500 - 01:03:55.550

whereas everyone else, not just the office I was running for, but everyone else was focused on border wall, immigration and so forth and so on. So, I was trying to show a different path.

01:03:55.650 - 01:04:13.480

I just didn't—lack the financial resources. A lot of folks personally told me we would have donated with our lobby group. But we–we don't want to be caught in retribution in like once—so and so or anyone else would have won.

01:04:13.550 - 01:04:22.370

They were trying to stay neutral. [KL: Gotcha.] and it was. I already knew it was all over once the governor endorsed one of the other candidates. Really? Oh, okay.

01:04:23.310 - 01:04:39.870

He never met with me. He just–it was kind of seemed like it was predetermined, [01:05:00] predestined, like [KL: Yeah]—but he–but he actually finished second before the runoff. [KL: Okay.] The lead candidate missed by 50 votes at the time.

01:04:39.930 - 01:04:54.720

[KL: Mhm.] So the runoff the candidate ended up winning that cycle poured in pretty much enough money to have a commercial on Fox News every morning. [KL: Wow.] with the governor. So I was like-

01:04:55.170 - 01:05:06.030

You did not have those resources. I don't have those resources, and he actually got—he was on redistricting-redistricted district. He redistricted me out.

01:05:06.030 - 01:05:19.410

But then he kept the other guy still in and he actually defeated him this time around. And I just stayed out of it. I was like, "I'm done. I'm burnt out." Working full time while running for office was a challenge. Yeah, what were you doing at the same time?

01:05:19.720 - 01:05:34.990

Still working for Houston Fire. [KL: Okay, Wow.] Yeah. And everyone else, all these other seven candidates, I think they took a leave of absence from their job. Or they were priv—independently employed.

01:05:35.350 - 01:05:50.330

[KL: Okay.] So, I was still working full time. Wow. Trying to show up to voters forums and answer all these questionnaires. And the number of lobby groups and special interest groups were staggering. All of them with their own surveys.

01:05:50.350 - 01:06:03.930

[KL: Right. Oh my gosh.] I wish the Houston Chronicle gave us then. Houston Chronicle didn't get involved in our race. They just reported on it. They didn't do any endorsements. They're like, "Oh, that's Sugar Land." Like really? [KL: Please.]

01:06:06.940 - 01:06:23.620

So, like some of the lobby groups, I'm like, "Nope, not even doing theirs because, I don't agree with their platform to begin with." And this was pre-pandemic, the anti-vaxxer group was already kind of, getting up there.

01:06:24.200 - 01:06:35.630

And when I did these surveys, one of the candidates, the one that ended up winning, didn't actually do any of the surveys, like, he might have done 1 or 2. Or they like the newspaper interviews.

01:06:37.330 - 01:06:53.060

I did it—the ones that I was like, might as well just get the name out there, right? But I wasn't going by any of the—the party lines. I was actually getting my Rice classmates, my high school classmates to help draft up positions.

01:06:53.450 - 01:07:10.490

So, did you kind of, like, go as, like, Independent? Essentially, But I had to be in the Republican primary. Okay gotcha. So you were just a very atypical Republican candidate? Yes. Like I said, the reason I'm

01:07:11.220 - 01:07:25.650

affiliated with them is like one like George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell, Joe Straus, who was speaker in Texas, big influences. I interned under Kay Bailey Hutchison when I was in college. Same with John Cornyn,

01:07:26.230 - 01:07:39.840

surrounded by really great staff. The thing is, a lot of the staff, the former staffers, have the mentality right now of what in the world is going on. This isn't normal. [KL: Yeah.] The ones that have a sense of how government actually should work from

01:07:39.840 - 01:07:56.570

ten years ago. It's like, it was working before. The people that are complaining it's broken are the ones destroying it. [KL: Yeah.] So, like, so some of my health care stuff I was talking to–to my, one of my high school classmates, one of my college classmates, they're both

01:07:56.570 - 01:08:10.630

doctors, er pediatricians. It's like, "Hey, how do you want me to answer this question on vaccines?" And they're just like. "Oh." Because they were really leading questions. [KL: Yeah.

01:08:12.050 - 01:08:27.890

Gotcha.] One of my classmates that was homeschooled, we walked through the homeschool lobby. So, you really got people's, like, advice from who you knew? And it seems like they already kind of—one, I think the homeschool lobby was surprised

01:08:27.890 - 01:08:41.570

I self-identified as a moderate. They're like, "No one ever actually does that." And there are certain groups that. "Oh," and I was like, "Oh, based on their questions,

01:08:41.670 - 01:08:48.870

they're not really about this." They're about that. Something else. Yeah. No, that's so interesting. Different focus areas. And I find it like—do you–do you feel, like,

01:08:48.870 - 01:08:59.960

after that experience, do you feel like it's possible to go through politics without making like playing the game, basically? Like, it's possible. I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy when you say it

01:08:59.960 - 01:09:15.220

can't be done. [KL: Okay.] And–and I and–I have clashed with a lot of people in, in, especially in the last two years about that. I'm like, "Well he's corrupt, but so are they. So–but we need to we have to play the same level." I'm like,

01:09:15.700 - 01:09:34.330

"That sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And you're just enabling this behavior." [KL: Yeah.] Like, I'm pretty open on like–like—heck, I [01:10:00] was on freaking Nightline, ABC news, after the State of the Union.

01:09:34.330 - 01:09:54.200

They were doing State of the Union commentary as part of a community panel, back in '23 or '22. So, I'm the–and like, I was like, "Yeah. Ethics matter." [KL: Yeah.] And when you're just like, "Oh, we're just going to vote for them because they're going to do what we want, but

01:09:54.630 - 01:10:10.780

we have no choice." Because I'm like, "You have a choice." There was a primary, one. You don't have to go for the one that's going to get indicted again. And I'm speaking with the Texas Attorney General. I'll—I'll go on record on that.

01:10:12.530 - 01:10:30.810

Because when–I had hope, when, like, I actually was watching the impeach-impeachment hearings of Ken Paxton and I'm like, I was really proud of those House reps that know it's near political suicide to go against him to vote for impeachment because the facts of the case.

01:10:33.720 - 01:10:50.090

But then when the Senate votes came in and then hearing what the lieutenant governor said made me lose pretty much all faith in the current state of the Texas Republican Party in all honesty. [KL: Mhm.] That was

01:10:50.790 - 01:11:03.330

pretty much my breaking point. [KL: Gotcha.] I still vote in the primaries just so I can vote against certain individuals. Okay, gotcha. But it is hard. It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you're so nitty gritty in the—

01:11:03.670 - 01:11:23.010

Yeah. But it's–I think it's... I would not run again unless I have–I cannot put my friends and family through that again unless I know I have like a—and I value my mental health too much.

01:11:24.260 - 01:11:37.340

I need like, sure have like–like I said, I value my friends and family, but I can't have them burn in the day-to-day stress of it. Like seeing them like, like be stressed on your behalf.

01:11:37.830 - 01:11:53.420

Or me putting—like, venting to them. Right, because of everything that has to deal with with that. Like and a lot of my friends that are far more qualified than I am, but they're like, "Hey, wife and kids or the husband and kids

01:11:53.940 - 01:12:02.540

come first?" Yeah. No, that makes sense. That is, that's just crazy. I guess, like lastly, in terms of career things,

01:12:02.640 - 01:12:10.660

I was really interested when I saw you worked as a security officer. Yeah, that's my, stress relief gig. Yes. I want to hear more about that. What is that experience like?

01:12:10.810 - 01:12:25.280

So, I got recruited to do that because the fire inspectors in Cedar Park are like, "Hey, the hockey arena needs more folks. Your house is three minutes away by car or 15 minutes by foot, and you get to see the game like—experience, like people get human

01:12:25.280 - 01:12:42.380

interaction and so forth." So, I joined back—I've been a certified security officer since, since fall of 20—my license says—my dad's birthday is when I got my license. Actually, it can carry a flashlight.

01:12:42.380 - 01:12:58.050

I can carry a notepad, carry the radio. October 20th, 2015 is when I became an official non-commissioned security officer for the state of Texas. So I can check bags, but I also can work to work the barricades at concerts,

01:12:58.200 - 01:13:13.760

make sure no one charges the stage. And I worked hockey games, basketball games, I get—I have now seniority at H-E-B center. Like, whenever I go back, I usually work courtside,

01:13:14.540 - 01:13:27.090

making sure no one charges the court. But it's a—it's a minor league basketball game. So, you can see some of these big stars up and rising stars like, Derrick White, who's now with the Celtics, was there,

01:13:28.370 - 01:13:39.170

playing for the Austin Spurs. I worked "I Love the '90s" concert security. That was very fun night. They had Vanilla Ice, Salt-N-Pepa, Coolio.

01:13:41.040 - 01:14:00.980

And then they had—who else have I worked? Vanilla Ice also brought the Ninja Turtles on stage for "Ninja Rap." [KL: Wow.' And he has more than just one hit, allegedly. Disney On Ice. [KL: Oh, wow.] During the pandemic.

01:14:02.520 - 01:14:18.470

Sister Hazel and Everclear did a drive in concert. [KL: Oh, nice.] Price is Right's traveling show. [KL: Wow.] Who else was there—besides—Backstreet Boys' [KL: Wow.] holiday concert, which was a disappointment for everybody

01:14:19.350 - 01:14:30.760

because they only did five songs and they had four openers. [KL: Oh, no.] Kidz bop. Harlem Globetrotters. Did anything [01:14:28] ever happen at any like. Do you have any stories of, like, you

01:14:30.760 - 01:14:42.730

actually having to, like, stop someone? I've never thrown anyone out. [KL: Okay.] I have some coworkers that had to. [KL: Okay.] I had confrontational patrons.

01:14:42.980 - 01:14:59.730

For example, there was a postgame kids' party on the basketball court after a game. Private party, and this father and daughter was trying to get his daughter in there and he's like, "Are you going to tell my daughter she's not going to be able to go on the courts?" Like, "Yes, because this is a private party." [KL:

01:14:59.730 - 01:15:17.760

Yeah.] Supervisor told him the same thing and he kind of stormed off. [KL: Okay.] There was a Rick Springfield concert in which we were trying to clear arena. We–we allow people to finish their final drink, and there's just one person left,

01:15:18.510 - 01:15:32.520

and we're trying to get her out, and she's like, "You are the cutest guy I've seen all week." And I'm like, "Okay, I can I can enjoy this attention." And she's like "Being a single mom of three teenagers." I'm like, "Please leave."

01:15:32.750 - 01:15:47.030

Never mind. Here in Houston, I've worked Houston Dash and Dynamo games. I go more to low key, low stress events because I'm like, "I'm too old for this." [KL: Yeah.] I don't want to chase anyone streaking

01:15:47.030 - 01:16:00.330

down or. [KL: Yeah.] Usually the issues are drunk people. [KL: Mhm.] Or some people—another example is like Disney on Ice. Someone's like, "This knife is not a weapon. It's a tool." I'm like, "You still can't bring it in."

01:16:01.490 - 01:16:14.380

Oh no, so bad. It's like I worked at Houston Symphony, which is more ushering. Okay, nice. Wow. You've done a whole range of things. Miller outdoor theatre. Houston dash, Houston Dynamo.

01:16:14.700 - 01:16:30.950

[KL: gotcha.] More of a low-key that won't–you won't have a soccer riot. Because I've been to, like, the radio traffic that you get on big shows can get pretty hectic. [KL: Yeah.] And I would say

01:16:30.950 - 01:16:46.750

some groups take it too lax, and you can tell those folks are just essentially throwing on a red shirt because they need warm bodies and they're really paying attention to the concert rather than actually working. Yeah and because if things go wrong, they can go really wrong.

01:16:47.290 - 01:17:01.300

The Travis Scott concert from years back. [KL: Definitely.] And there's some surreal moments, like comedy shows. I don't want to work ever again. Just the amount of marijuana involved.

01:17:01.300 - 01:17:15.740

[KL: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.] And the comedians are usually late because they're doing marijuana backstage. [KL: Okay.] So, they're always off schedule. [KL: Yeah.] And the sense of entitlement by some

01:17:15.740 - 01:17:28.090

folks, may it be like from the actual staff of folks, like, from the the talent. [KL: Yeah.] Or the, like, season ticket holders, like, "Hey, I paid so much for these season ticket holders."

01:17:28.330 - 01:17:49.510

Last question. Where and when do you feel most at home? Oh, Texas. I would say most at home is with—I need at least someone I know in a room in a big group that I know that I can lean on,

01:17:49.510 - 01:18:11.210

that has known me for years, just because I'm much more comfortable in that setting. Like here on campus, Sugar Land, or...most at home. That's–I would say it's more affected by the

01:18:11.210 - 01:18:25.990

people around me than where I am physically. [KL: Mhm.] Like, if I'm with friends and like in, in let's say Denver, just having that familiarity makes a huge difference.

01:18:26.200 - 01:18:42.830

[KL: Mhm] Yeah. No that's great. That's awesome. And I would say one last thing is like...yeah I would...But in terms of like my other passions.

01:18:43.510 - 01:19:04.010

One thing that I'm just because I'm not sure if I put it down, but I think I like just giving back to the community. [KL: Mhm.] Some of the passions I have—have been like, just the youth. Also domestic violence cases,

01:19:04.010 - 01:19:21.110

like I grew up volunteering for the Fort Bend County Women's Center. [KL: Mhm.] And I know a lot of my close friends have been victims, had a cousin that was murdered. [KL: Wow.] Several years, like over ten years now,

01:19:21.110 - 01:19:38.720

I think. And another one of my friends, her, one of her close friends was killed in a domestic [01:19:27] violence case and stuff like that. I'm like, "That's–shouldn't ever happen." [KL: Mhm.] And–but people still kind of like, "Oh that's just

01:19:39.230 - 01:19:41.280

not." [KL: Yeah, yeah, definitely]. So.