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[Audio description: an image of Kim Szeto wearing a black and white sweater on the left. On the right, the Chao Center for Asian Studies and HAAA logos at the top, the text "An Oral History Interview with Kim Szeto" displayed prominently, and the text "Houston Asian Archive" and "February 18, 2022" near the bottom.] All right, so today is Friday, February 18, 2022. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Ms. [Audio description: Kim Szeto sitting in a living room, wearing a red jacket.] Kim Szeto for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice.

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So, to start from the very beginning, could you tell us where and when you were born? When? It's a long time ago. I was born in 1950 in a little village, in the southern part of

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China, in Guangdong Province. Great, and could you describe the household that you grew up in? The household that I grew up in?

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I lived in China till I was five, five and a half. Before that, you know, we lived in a village. My family is supposed to be one of those landlords

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back–back in those days. So we had—I eventually had like seven siblings. So with my–with my parents and my grandparents, and lots of

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servants when we were growing up in China, and then we–we escaped to Hong Kong. So it was a totally different environment, because we were afraid of being persecuted.

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So we changed our names, we really hid our identities, and we didn't talk about our past so much, you know, no politics, naturally. So it was a pretty—in retrospect, it was a very

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sheltered life in a very vibrant—a metropolis such as Hong Kong. So yeah, it was–it was—we had a good life, but so to speak, but it was pretty sheltered.

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We didn't—my parents didn't dare to take us places. And we never went back home for a long, long time. I didn't go back till 1995.

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So… and we—in Hong Kong, I don't know if you know, space is very limited. So, people pretty much crowded into small spaces,

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small flats, you know, so we–we were lucky, we had a condo, we had five bedrooms, which is very unusual for–for, you know, common people, you know, you're not rich, you know.

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So we were—we, you know, I feel pretty privileged, you know, even though I will say, at the time, we didn't feel like it was a sheltered life. We thought that was it—you know, we were being

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able to sent to private school and those. But once we came to this country, I was 16 and a half when I came, moved to Boston, and it was a very, very

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tough adjustment as a teenager. I didn't speak hardly any English, you know. We did learn English in school, but it's not—it's book learning, you know, so you don't really have

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conversation. You think you understand English, but you really don't. So most people, you know, we write better, read better than we can speak.

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But it was a pretty, pretty, pretty tough beginning, you know. I end up—I grew up from a very traditional family. So, since I was 16,

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17, my father in particular wanted to just married me off to someone by arrangement. That's how my two oldest sister were married off.

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So, I don't know if you know about those like picture brides back in those days before the internet, where some–some Chinese gentlemen that have migrated to the US or to Canada, and they would go

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back to Hong Kong and pick out a bride and then bring them back. So that's how my oldest sister was married off at 18. And then my second oldest sister was married off at 17.

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So–so when I came here, was 16 and a half, almost 17, so my father said, "Oh, it's time to marry you off," you know, but it was a very tough situation because I was

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not allowed to go to school, so I went and worked in a garment factory with my mother. So that was in July of 1967, in Boston Chinatown, and because we couldn't find any other job, you know.

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And so when my father wanted me to–to be married off; I, being a dutiful daughter, I agreed. But the whole time when I was working with my mother,

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several incidents happened that–that sort of really changed my life, basically. Because neither one of us speak any English, and I spoke—I knew English a little bit.

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So my mom loves to go shopping, I remember going shopping with my mother. Back in those days, those—we had like what we call five-and-dimes. Woolworth's, they had lunch counters,

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so those were way before your time , you probably don't even know about them. But one time, my mom got hungry after shopping, this is like

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six or seven o'clock at night, and she said, "Kim, can we get something to eat at this lunch counter?" Now, they were selling hotdogs. I have never had a hot dog.

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I didn't know what they were called. I just saw there was some meat. Then I saw people putting in like mustard and relish and those kind of things on it.

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I didn't know what they were. I-I was so embarrassed. I told my mother, "I don't know how to order." So, I remember getting on—sorry, just get emotional.

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That's okay. Let me know if you want me to pause the recording or anything. So anyway, we got on the–the subway, the trolley, to go home. And I remember crying the whole time. I said to my mother, "I have to learn English.

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Send me to school, please let me go to school." And my mom said, "Your dad wouldn't–wouldn't let you." So very fortunate, come like October, November, there was slow down, there was

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no–no–no work, so I was stuck at home. I had no pay. So one Sunday, my father suddenly said to me, "All right, you want to go to school?

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Go, rather than just sitting at home doing nothing." So it was a Sunday. It was Thanksgiving, which, you know, we didn't know about Thanksgiving back then, either. So my little sister and I

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took the trolley up to this high school that I was supposed to go to, you know, that we're zoned to. And I still remember looking at the school on a Sunday, there was nobody. Do you remember Jamaica Plain?

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Do you know that–that area? I think I've–I think I've heard of it, yeah, I don't think I've ever been there. I eventually went to Jamaica Plain High School. So I was just looking at the school and, you know, trying to

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figure out, is the place to come tomorrow, to come and register? Out comes this–this little old lady. She was just like really tiny. And she was across the street in a big house, sweeping leaves,

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fallen leaves, on her yard. And my sister and I went over and talked to her and asked her whether, you know, that was a good school to go to, you

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know, simple things. So she told us to come back the next day to register. And so I went in the next day. And of course I couldn't carry on a conversation with–with–with the school. So they told me, "You–you have to go to

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what we call Buffalo School," which is–which is really ESL classes. And so just as I was getting up to leave, they got a call. And then they told me I can stay. I was like, "Wow!" Then they said, "After school, you go across the

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street to see that lady." Little did we know, she was the wife of the first principal of that school. So she was like really impressed that I wanted to learn, that I wanted to know about the school.

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So she really changed my life just because I asked her, and then eventually, she really supported me, you know, I would go over and you know, just talk to her or get advice from her, and you know.

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So going to school at that time was like really difficult. Didn't understand a word, so I would used to—I used to bring my notebook and go up to the teacher after each class and say, "Can you tell me what I'm supposed—what homework I'm

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supposed to do? What page?" And then I'd go home and I'd do them, you know. So they were like, really translating everything. So it's–it's—it takes a lot, you know?

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Not only was–was I sort of straddling two cultures as a teenager, you know, not knowing the language, you know, not knowing really what—the–the whole general environment was so

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foreign to me, you know. I still remember we've never met Blacks before. So we were in a—when we first moved here, was in a–in a part of

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Boston called Roxbury, basically all Blacks, and we were just stunned, you know, how they were being treated. So I think that was the first time that I've noticed discrimination.

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Because in Hong Kong, and China, is a pretty homogeneous society, everybody looks like us, everybody speaks the same language, so there was no overt racial discrimination

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that we had ever observed. So I think seeing how they were being treated, and how we were really struggling, and knowing that they probably would be struggling just like us, you know,

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because people don't treat them the same way, I think that's how it really started–started my–my sort of advocacy later on, in terms of civil rights, human rights, and, you know, working

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with people in social services, and all that, you know. My–my teachers in that school had also totally opened up my eyes, I think, because they were, for lack of a

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better words, like impressed with–with someone who really wanted to learn, who really wanted to know what's going on in the world. I remember being exposed to fine arts because my history teacher,

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Mr. Landrigan, one day, he took me to the–to the Isabella Gardner Museum, right–right behind the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. So—and they had chamber music playing at the time, so it was my first

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exposure to–to art of any kind. Never ever been to a museums, so, you know, I truly appreciate that. So later on, when I was working with refugee youth,

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or immigrant youth, I always take them to museums, and—just because I know that would open up your eyes to see, you know, that we can be part of this great, big—that the world is–is good, actually, you know, so yeah, I enjoyed that

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very much, being that exposed to more cultural stuff in this country. So, you know, if you don't ask me a question, I'll be talking on and on. Thank you so much for sharing.

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Well, that sounds like a really hard transition to make, especially for a young teenager. But oh, sorry, that sounds like a really difficult transition to make, especially for a young teenager, like yourself, and—but it sounds like it

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really shaped your passions for the future. It did. And not only that, I was determined to go off to college, because I know, like, just having a high school education wasn't gonna get me far, you know.

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I don't–I don't know how it happened, but I had a very high SAT score, so I was accepted into several pretty good colleges with full scholarships, but since I've only been here, at the time, like a year and a half, my mother in particular didn't want me to

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go away. So I ended up staying in Boston. But teachers were all very nice, you know, even though I was really struggling. I still remember

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freshman year English, you know, I had to write this—I don't know if you guys are reading it now, or you just read it in high school rather than in college. My very first thing in English Lit was–was reading

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Iliad of Homer. So I—it's a myth, I mean, a Greek mythology, right, which I did not know at the time. So I couldn't understand a word, what–what it was all about.

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And I remember my professor, Dr. Bluestone, asked us to write an essay on it, right, and I stayed up till like four in the morning, just trying to write something, but I didn't understand what was

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going on. But again, I just did my best, did my homework. And the teacher was very, very understanding. And he looked at me, he goes, "Just go home and write whatever you can think of, you know, you don't have to write

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about this book," you know. So people really helped me along the way. And that's–that's what helped me to have a

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better understanding of where people coming from and have more empathy, you know, when I'm dealing with people, because of my own–own experience. And I remember teaching my mother and a group of her friends who worked in the–in the garment factory in

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Boston, teaching them just simple ABCs, because I remember, we lived on the Huntington line. So, we have to teach my mother, that, "Get on the line that has 'H.'" So we told her it

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was like–like a stool or chair with the thing across, so you look for that letter, you know. So that was really tough, you know, so–so that's how I started do—teaching ESL much later on, all through—trying

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to help people get adjusted. And when I was in my sophomore year of college, I heard from somebody that the city of Boston was

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handing out funds to underprivileged, underserved communities. And all the money was going into the Black community at the time. And so I said, like, "What happened to Chinese community?"

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Now, the Chinese community was very small back then, so that was, what, 50 years ago, right? And—but there is a Chinatown, and there was a little place that we

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called little–little city hall. And Caroline Chang, who's a lawyer, one of the first lawyers in Boston, she was like, sort of like the mayor, you know.

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So these are, like, unofficial kind of places, but that's where we gathered. And anyway, I went and argued with the city, that they need to give some money–to give some money to–to the Chinatown youth, so

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that's–that's really the first time I had to deal with someone outside of–of Chinatown. Even Chinatown, I've never dealt with people in that community, and also with the cit, so it really opened up my eyes.

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And that's how I really started all the nonprofit work, basically all my life been just working in the nonprofit sector. And having, having to deal with—back in those days, we had what

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we call On Leong Association. So it's the Merchant's Benevolent Association. Back in those days were–were the triads.

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People come and, you know, have the Chinese merchants, they have to give them money, protections, and all that. But technically, they're the Merchant's Association, and they own buildings and all that.

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So I was able to negotiate with those elderly men to get space to start a—I called it Youth Tutoring Youth Center.

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So, YTY. And so I hired, using those money from the city, I hired a group of American Born Chinese high school students, and then have them tutor newly immigrants, new immigrants that are in, like, grammar school, you know.

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And then I hire college—Chinese college students to supervise the whole program. And I also had students going—working at different hospitals and even working in Chinatown itself.

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So, it was a real good time, a fun time, and that things are being developed. And, you know, you just get so involved and, and seeing how all the–all the high school kids and the college kids

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were just so enthusiastic because we all find something that we feel very, we feel—I feel very useful, you know, that I was helping out people, you know, that I know, I–I would have loved that if—had I gotten, had I gotten that

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kind of help, you know, when I first came to Boston, so it was good. It was very good, you know. Yeah, haven't talked about, haven't thought about all this stuff for so long.

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So, actually, that's when I met my ex-husband. And then we moved out—right after college, we got married and moved to New York City, where he

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was going to medical school at Columbia. So, that was my first job, as you might have read in my—working in Chinatown and the Chinatown Planning Council.

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By the way, that little tutorial center that I started? Still there. You know, I was very impressed. People carry on, you know, and so the

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Chinatown Planning Council is one of the very first social service agency for Chinese in Chinatown areas. So, you know, I was very happy to–to continue my work, you know.

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Still remember that very first job was very exciting because I was working in the housing area and there were–there were slum lords. It's–it's like really horrible

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situation, when we go and visit Chinese family that were living in Chinatown. Holes in the walls, rats running rampant, you know, the place is just like, the room is gonna fall down, it's so dilapidated, you know.

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And yet, you know, they–they charge them a lot of money and all that. So, I remember organizing tenant strikes. First time

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going out, having picket signs, have the elderly holding signs and just marching around Chinatown, you know, got on local television because not too many Chinese people were doing those kind of stuff. And it–it, you

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know, it was good, it's good work, you know, I enjoyed it tremendously. So I was just a little bit older than you then, you know, right out of college, you know. So that–that was a lot of fun, you know,

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and then I got recruited into the Chinatown Health Clinic to do health education. And that's how I really started this whole journey and working in health area, as well as social services.

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So, Chinatown Health Clinic at the time was, again, the very first health clinic. All volunteers at the time, you know, that we–we have to go out and recruit not

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only just doctors and nurses, but patients as well because they didn't know that we would be able to do those kinds of stuff for them. Lots of the elderly in particular don't believe in doctors, or Western doctors, so they get very sick,

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and they don't get care. I had a great aunt who lived in New York Chinatown at the time, she was in her 80s, and she had diabetes where her–her

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whole foot, one, you know, her left foot was totally gangrened. And she didn't seek care, you know, she could have lost her whole foot, you know, but things like that.

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So that's why, at the time, I was doing health education, was really just going out and telling people, you know, one, about the services that are available, you know, and how they can access those care.

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So–so that whole theme carried with me basically all through. It was the—finding the availability, you know, getting—finding out what's

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out there, you know, what medical doctors, what mental health practitioners are available to serve the Asian community, at the time it was the Chinese community, and how they can access, and how they can utilize those

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services. So always use—with those three things in mind, I was able to just carry on programs that me and other people would, you know, sort of come up with, you know, when we're trying to deal with certain issues.

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So we said, "How are we going to deal with this?" You know, so, yeah, the Chinatown Health Clinic later on became one of the largest community health center that is federally funded. I eventually went back and

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became their Deputy Executive Director for the Center, you know, so yeah, we had quite a bit, we had like $9 million in budget back–back in those days, it was pretty large, you know.

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So that's why I learned a lot dealing with federal government because the program was federally funded. You have to write grants, you have to tell them what to—you know. So there was a lot of research, looking into what's needed in the community,

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and how to convince people those services are needed, for them to–to provide funding so that we can carry on our work, you know. So, yeah, that Chinatown Health Clinic is now called the

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Charles B. Wang Community Health Center. And, yeah, I'm very proud of that work. Also, because we were always like in the—sort of the pioneers,

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people who were starting out and doing—you know, so that tells you how old I am, right? A lot of things been like way, way, back, you know. So, subsequently, I-I've moved quite a bit, because my ex-husband became

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an academic, academician, you know, in medicine, so we would go from—first he has to do his internship, his residency, then he started teaching, so we were moving quite a bit.

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The only place that I didn't deal with any–any China—Chinese community was when we first moved to Pittsburgh. We were only there for one year, and I-I don't know whether there were any–any

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Chinese community there and then I moved to Los Angeles. We were there for nine years. And that's where I started, with a group of people, started a Cantonese

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language school. So, everybody has Mandarin language school on the weekend for the kids, but I didn't speak Mandarin at the time, so–so I started—became the dean of

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instruction and developed curriculums to teach, and recruit teachers, of course, to teach the kids Cantonese Chinese. So, as you know, the written languages are the same, but, you know, we say it differently.

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So that's also where I started working with non-Asian community for the first time, in Van Nuys, California, which is in the valley just outside of LA, and working

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with gangs. So, that, again, made me–made me—I think that's the first time I really paid a lot of attention to mental health issues because

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I–I saw how working with the parents, the kind of issues that they–they had to go through with their kids, you know, and the reason why they–they got into gangs

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or participating in gang activities. So–so you're trying to look at this root cause, you know, what's happening, and you're trying to look at the whole family, you know, all the dynamics that are affecting that one child.

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So it's not just affecting that one child, but it's affecting the whole family. So–so that's when I realized mental health is very important, you know, because if you

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don't have the support of your family and friends who understand what you're going through, you know, it's gonna take much longer, so—yeah, I was still very surprised at the

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kind of horrible experiences those–those so called "gangsters," those youth had to go through, you know, yeah. I think–I think my whole immigrant experience

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really colored how I view society and how I–how I become sort of empathetic with other people's situation. And also,

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because my ex-husband is Jewish-Irish American. So that opened up like a whole different experience for me. It made me become, I guess,

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more open-minded. Even the mere fact that I was–I was—I dared to–to date a non-Asian, non-Chinese, back in those days.

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And I basically, I got—my family was totally objected to it because I've only—when I married him, I've only been here like four years, you know, so didn't even speak a whole lot of

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English, you know, not fluent at all. And so there was a lot of stigma, even just–just marrying outside of your own race, you know.

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But I also get to see a whole different side of the world, you know, a whole different culture, not just–just me and my little Chinese mindset, you know,

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so–so we—because of him, you know, I've become a lot more open-minded, but not only that, I was able to travel throughout the country quite a bit.

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Then we moved to like Cleveland, Ohio, where he taught at the Case Western Reserve. So there, I participated in—by then we had two kids, so, you know, I couldn't work full time, even though I wanted to. So I did—I

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participated, I took my kids to the Chinese language school on the weekend. And also, are you familiar with OCA?1 I'm not sure what that is.

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OCA is the national civil rights organization. So you need to look into it, that we have a chapter here. So back then in–in Cleveland, we had a Chinese Community Association, but it later morphed into this

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OCA affiliates, and so everywhere I've gone, you know, I've tried to–tried to be in, you know, tried to engage in community activities, community affairs, you know,

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and then I moved here. I moved here in 1988. Sorry, it's my phone. Took me—it took me a little while to really get involved with

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the Chinese community. My kids were 1 OCA stands for “Organization of Chinese Americans.” It was founded in 1973 and has since developed into the OCA-Asian Pacific American Advocates .

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having some issues dealing with transition into different schools and the whole different environment. And they also immediately encountered a lot of

00:35:21.750 - 00:35:39.680

racial discrimination kind of issues I was trying to help them with. And so I did a lot of volunteer work in the non-Asian community, non-Chinese community. I volunteered at school, did a lot of stuff with both my kids' schools in grammar school and junior high.

00:35:40.600 - 00:36:05.010

And so I–I taught as a volunteer worker, I taught ESL to–to a group of Vietnamese immigrants. What do they call

00:36:05.010 - 00:36:26.920

those? Eurasian Vietnamese, that particular group, this is through the YMCA international services. And this particular group of Vietnamese, they were young, they were in their late teens or early 20s.

00:36:28.710 - 00:36:47.740

Their fathers were all servicemen from–from America that were stationed in Vietnam, and they were either Black or white Americans that married Vietnamese women. So this group of people were not accepted by either

00:36:48.080 - 00:37:02.670

society, you know, in Vietnam, they were like, "You're not Vietnamese," you know, and here, like, they don't speak English, and they look different, also. So they're not accepted even in the Vietnamese community.

00:37:03.570 - 00:37:22.390

And so there was a lot of also not just teaching them English, but teaching them about how to be part of the community, you know, and then–and then I don't know how that

00:37:22.640 - 00:37:41.870

happened. I was offered a job because of my volunteer work. I was offered a job as the Director for the Institute of Chinese Culture. It was basically, it still is, a Chinese

00:37:41.870 - 00:38:00.370

language school. It was the oldest Chinese language school in the city of Houston. In fact, they were affiliated with Rice University for the longest time because it started by several professors from Rice, so

00:38:01.590 - 00:38:21.530

classes used to be held at Rice itself before they had money to–to rent some facilities in—not even in Chinatown. That–that also, like, made me

00:38:21.530 - 00:38:38.470

realize the Chinese parents that sent their kids to–to the Chinese language school, they were not—they're not very well assimilated, or even want to assimilate.

00:38:39.090 - 00:38:58.020

So very, very old fashioned, very traditional, very strict, you know? So, the kids were just–just—the children, who were all American born, were also having

00:38:58.050 - 00:39:15.970

issues, you know, assimilating or acculturating. You know, they also feel like they're living in two worlds, and you might feel that way too, you know, that at home, you have to be like really Chinese-like, but you have to be totally

00:39:16.420 - 00:39:36.340

different when you're out going to school, you know, out with other people, you know. So, that's when we started a—it's still going on, it's called Youth Leadership Council. Have you heard of them? And at that time, it was due

00:39:36.340 - 00:39:50.860

to this—again, I was—we were doing at Rice, you know, is to talk to the kids. So we have like a, what do you call, summer camp, like just three days at Rice University.

00:39:50.960 - 00:40:05.190

Well, two nights and three days. So we bring in people from different fields and talk to them about, let's say, leadership skills and, you know, all sorts of issues, but

00:40:06.090 - 00:40:25.220

basically it's trying to help them acculturate, you know, be successful in both worlds, you know, you don't have to be just Chinese, you don't have to be just Chinese American, you know. So that–that just started all my involvement with the

00:40:25.590 - 00:40:42.850

community, so—and also, I did the—when I was at the Institute of Chinese Culture, I taught ESL to a large group of

00:40:42.920 - 00:40:53.200

Chinese seniors. So there's a Chinese Seniors Association, we still have it, that we would go in and teach them English.

00:40:53.570 - 00:41:10.200

Then, I eventually taught citizenship classes so they could get, you know, the citizenship. So, yeah, so it's like working with all different age group, you know, youth and seniors, you know, and

00:41:11.680 - 00:41:31.470

at the same time, that's when I start-started, co-founded APAHA, APAHA is the Asian Pacific American Heritage Association. So that was the first organization in the Asian

00:41:31.870 - 00:41:47.540

community that was truly encompassing all the Asian subgroups, rather than just dealing with Chinese American, Chinese community, Vietnamese community, Korean community, and so on, you know. So this—the APAHA was

00:41:47.540 - 00:42:04.850

very encompassing, you know, very inclusive, including all different groups. So we started with just–just trying to tell people about, first of all, about AAPI's, you know, that we do exist.

00:42:04.920 - 00:42:17.890

And, you know, we're not a homogeneous group of people, that we–we have all these different subgroup, different subcultures. And, you know, basically, we just didn't want them to lump us all together, even though if they started

00:42:17.890 - 00:42:31.480

acknowledging that there is—as you know, lately, with the–with the hate crime, the AAPI crime, people are beginning to–to sort of notice more Asian Americans and the issues that we're facing, you know.

00:42:32.080 - 00:42:52.320

But APAHA was basically a cultural organization to share the culture with–with–with people, you know, and so that–that was, that was a great segue into me working with

00:42:54.570 - 00:43:10.350

Asian American Family Services. When we started, it was called Asian American Family Counseling Center. The reason why we even started that organization was the fact that at that time, there was only the

00:43:10.390 - 00:43:29.280

Chinese Community Center that was providing any kind of social services to the Chinese community. And then there was a Vietnamese community group who has now—is now defunct, that they started, but they

00:43:29.600 - 00:43:41.290

only deal with the Vietnamese group. And were a couple of associations, community association groups, like for the Korean and the Japanese and, you know, the Filipinos,

00:43:41.290 - 00:44:01.140

you know. But there was no group that were providing social services or mental health services, or any kind of services provision to the entire Asian community. So, we happened to be a

00:44:01.300 - 00:44:16.670

group of social workers, social service people, community-oriented people. But we–we know medical healthcare was a major issue for the Asian

00:44:16.750 - 00:44:34.190

community in terms of accessing services because of the language. So, we were not able to do a medical clinic, so to speak, so we started to concentrate on the mental health services. So

00:44:34.280 - 00:44:49.780

that–that was a very tough going. We started that in 1994. It took us a long time, two, three years, before–before we were able to get some funding, and

00:44:50.990 - 00:45:09.720

there is only one foundation that is geared towards mental health needs. It's the Hogg Foundation for Mental Health. So we, at that time, did not know whether there was even practitioners, therapists, or psychiatrists,

00:45:10.670 - 00:45:23.860

or psychologists, who–who can speak different Asian languages, who would provide services. So, we started with just developing a directory,

00:45:25.130 - 00:45:40.430

getting information, and then we realized that all the—not too many people speak an Asian language, and if they do, they are not fluent, you know, in their conversation, so they cannot provide

00:45:40.430 - 00:45:51.830

services, basically, not–not in—not–not in their native tongue, you know. And there were not too many people that were licensed in the field.

00:45:52.840 - 00:46:09.540

So, we work with UH School of Social Work, College of Social Work, and also their psychology department later on, in terms of recruiting students from even Hong Kong and China,

00:46:11.270 - 00:46:26.380

different–different Asian community, to go into that field to begin with, but it–it takes quite a few years, you know, it's like, two years of grad school and social work. And then you do—you have your practicums, a whole

00:46:26.690 - 00:46:44.590

year, then you get, you know, takes another year to get your license, you know, so it's a long process. So, we started by just first developing and seeing what is available. And then we got some funding, and we started to

00:46:45.680 - 00:47:07.350

recruit some people as volunteer therapists and whatnot. And gradually, like, in—I became the CEO in 1999. And we were able to recruit a couple of people who were

00:47:07.450 - 00:47:24.960

actually working full time for some non-Asian organization. One person work for the prison, you know, working with youth groups there and—who are in prison, he-he's

00:47:24.960 - 00:47:43.410

Vietnamese. And then we had a Chinese woman practitioner, who was not really in private practice, but she's—she does sort of counseling at a church, she's licensed.

00:47:43.680 - 00:47:57.590

So, we recruited those two people part time to just come in. So here lies the problem: one, people don't know that you have those services available. And two, the stigma of

00:47:57.850 - 00:48:10.280

mental health is just such a taboo, not only in the Asian community, but in–in the general community. So I always say we're selling something nobody wants.

00:48:12.240 - 00:48:26.750

So we try to tell people about the kind of services and why they, you know, what it is, you know, when and how they should access services, you know. But then the major problem is

00:48:27.040 - 00:48:36.770

we don't have enough people. We don't have enough hours. We don't have enough people to speak the different Asian languages.

00:48:38.350 - 00:48:54.520

As you know, we, you know, Asian is not just Chinese or Vietnamese, you know. So that–that was the—that was a major impetus

00:48:54.520 - 00:49:11.370

for us to start AAFS, is to try to help the Asian community in terms of their mental health issues, but that's also the major hurdle, the major challenge because our community is so diverse.

00:49:12.680 - 00:49:29.770

So, you can't–you can't just have one person, you know, one group and say, "Okay, I'm helping the Asians." You're not, you know. So, finding interpreters

00:49:29.990 - 00:49:45.520

for, you know, we've tried to have psychiatrists or people from the hospital that we—Baylor and all those, we try to have their resident come in, and we would provide interpreting for them.

00:49:46.070 - 00:50:02.170

But that's–that's not really optimal, you know, because mental health is basically like talk therapy, you know, you have to be able to share what's in your heart, you know, be able to

00:50:02.280 - 00:50:18.870

empathize and not just hearing it from, you know, a third person, you know. And, you know, because of the confidentiality, we usually don't–don't bring in family members, actually, we don't even tell family members that–that

00:50:19.500 - 00:50:37.660

they're, you know, taking—accepting care at our facility, you know, so it's a major struggle in terms of provision, you know. And then, of course, people

00:50:37.660 - 00:50:52.410

don't have money to pay, or they don't want to pay because they said, "Oh, you just, you're just talking to me, why should I pay you for talking to me?" Then when we had psychiatrists working there, and then people just want

00:50:52.980 - 00:51:05.090

to—they don't want to talk about what was in the heart, you know, what–what the root problem was, they just wanted to—now, some people do need that medication, you know, but they just come in, and they just wanted

00:51:05.320 - 00:51:23.520

medicine. They feel better to tell people that they're going to a doctor, you know. So, when our agency was called Asian American Family Counseling Center, that–that was, you know, another

00:51:23.520 - 00:51:39.830

hurdle. So we—because people say, "I don't need counseling," you know, so we changed our name to Family Services—Asian American Family Services, and we provided social services, social work stuff, helped people

00:51:40.090 - 00:51:56.900

apply for Medicaid, and other services. And we had youth program, working with refugee youth, you know, different school districts, and working with seniors, you know, all sorts of social services, trying to link them up.

00:52:00.100 - 00:52:20.330

You know, we did–we did major conferences, these are where you get academic credits, you know, for the CEU's, for coming, so we had basically like non-Asian

00:52:23.300 - 00:52:40.500

practitioners, psychiatrists, psychologists, and social work, and LPC's, for them to come in and learn about the Asian culture, so that they could better help their clients, if they happen to have clients that are Asian Americans.

00:52:41.530 - 00:53:04.820

So it's–it's something that-that's very, very much needed. Now that–now that Asian American Family Services is no longer in operation, it's

00:53:04.820 - 00:53:23.560

really sad because people say, "Where do–where do we find services?" You know, there are some–there are some, very few, Asians in private practice, but then they have to charge you a regular fee.

00:53:25.330 - 00:53:43.290

Unlike at AAFS, it's–it's either free or it's like 25 bucks, you know. I understand that HOPE Clinic now have some mental health services, although that's not—of course,

00:53:43.870 - 00:53:59.370

it's not–it's not their primary focus, you know, but it's someplace that they can–they can ask for help, maybe get referrals. I still get referrals. They—people still call me and ask me for referrals.

00:54:00.370 - 00:54:18.560

You know, because back before I retired, we had–we had staff that spoke like 16 different Asian languages, including like Burmese and, you know,

00:54:18.560 - 00:54:33.970

Nepalese, and these are like—we really had to, how should I say, nurture those practitioners while they were in school, to tell them how important it is for them to come and serve their own community.

00:54:35.440 - 00:54:50.720

The rate limiting step is that those students, when–when they finished school, they really need a job that pays them, you know? So it's

00:54:50.760 - 00:55:07.180

tough because we–we were a small nonprofit, so our pay was not great to begin with, you know, we tried really hard for it to be comparable with other non-Asian organizations, clinics.

00:55:07.250 - 00:55:23.380

But, yeah, eventually, I think that money is a major factor for the–for the practitioners. Now we do have some who are like, in their 40s, 50s.

00:55:24.870 - 00:55:43.630

They are—they're well-established in their own practice. So they're able to come and they volunteer, they say, "I don't need to pay, I just want to help out," you know, for those who can speak an Asian language, so, yeah.

00:55:44.770 - 00:56:04.240

Mental health, it’s-it's a tough subject. So, like you mentioned, many Asian families don't really view mental health as important or acceptable to

00:56:04.240 - 00:56:17.750

talk about due to the stigma, and how there's often a lot of shame associated with reaching out and seeking more help in traditional Asian culture. So, how did you help patients who had trouble kind of reconciling this?

00:56:20.070 - 00:56:39.720

Well actually, lots of time, the patient don't come on their own. We started out having clients that were referred to us from school by school. They said, "Oh, this—we can't deal with this kid." We also had lots of

00:56:39.810 - 00:56:57.270

kids that are referred to us from the court system. This is how we all got started because we would go and do public outreach. So we'd go to school districts and doctor's office

00:56:58.240 - 00:57:12.240

and just tell them—hospitals, and tell them that we're around. So they have Asian clients, so that-that's how they–they got referred in. And they don't recognize that they have a problem, they don't want to accept that they have a problem.

00:57:12.590 - 00:57:35.130

Neither do the parents, you know, so it takes a lot more education, really, to talk to the parents and tell them how we can really help them, you know, and eventually, with a lot of—we did a lot of radio programs, newspaper

00:57:35.130 - 00:57:50.470

articles, in different languages. And people who came to us were primarily people who were really sick, with major issue, that they–they recognize

00:57:51.730 - 00:58:06.890

that they—there's something that they can't—they can't handle. And even though they don't know what it is, they don't want to, you know, so they're mainly very sick people. They don't come in when their–when their issue

00:58:09.590 - 00:58:26.500

first started. So the people who come in really to do therapy were basically American-born young adults, you know, people

00:58:26.500 - 00:58:43.190

who come in for relationship issues and maybe addiction and all that, whereas the other whole group, people with schizophrenia, you know,

00:58:45.920 - 00:59:03.570

lots–lots of major mental health—mental illness, you know, that we felt like we were–we were not really totally competent in dealing with because we don't have

00:59:04.840 - 00:59:21.530

so many different full time clinicians that can help with all these different issues, you know. We had lots of domestic abuse clients, you know, after we–we went out and did a lot of public education about–about

00:59:21.850 - 00:59:37.330

what's–what's–what's child abuse, what's domestic abuse, and all those stuff. And also, sexual abuse, which is something, you know, on top of being a

00:59:37.330 - 00:59:55.030

mental health issues, you know, there was such a–such a shame and a stigma for them to even discuss, so we–we get them. And it's–it's–it's really sad, you know,

00:59:55.820 - 01:00:10.020

we have had women just—because we, we—eventually, we moved to Chinatown. And so we were very close to–to our client base.

01:00:10.450 - 01:00:26.280

And we have women that–that were being chased by their abuser, they were just running out the house, one shoe on, you know, with nothing, you know. It's just really awful, you know, we had to call police and all that, you know.

01:00:27.110 - 01:00:40.010

We had children that were being abused by the parents, and they'd go to school, they don't—teachers said there's something wrong, you know, but they couldn't talk about it, you know.

01:00:43.050 - 01:01:04.090

I still remember this–this one, one of the very few first cases that we dealt with at the school district was that a nine-year-old Vietnamese kid had threatened to commit suicide with a pair of scissors at school and we got

01:01:04.180 - 01:01:20.370

called. And, you know, we had a Vietnamese clinician that rushed out, it was pretty far away, it was—I forgot what district it was, spoke to the kid in Vietnamese. So what happened was that both parents worked.

01:01:22.180 - 01:01:35.460

So, grandparents, a grandfather was the one that was, you know, stayed at home to take care of him. But when he comes back from school, the grandfather would just tell him to do homework, if

01:01:35.460 - 01:01:52.590

he doesn't do homework, he hits him, and he makes him kneel in front of the wall for like hours on end, and won't feed him, you know, so the kid's just like, wow, you know, "What's there to live for?" You know, for nine-year-old to think of committing

01:01:52.660 - 01:02:10.370

suicide, it was pretty bad. But we were able to work with the–with the grandfather, you know. So little things like that, you know, even simple things, like we worked with the

01:02:13.100 - 01:02:29.140

Burmese refugee kids, they were being, like, bullied at school because they had never—some of those kids grew–grew up in refugee camp in the Philippines and so on.

01:02:29.700 - 01:02:44.620

And some of them had never even slept on a—you know, they had dirt floor, you know, what they—they would come to school, they had never held a pencil; they had never went to school. And so it

01:02:44.620 - 01:03:03.360

was really tough for them to go to like junior high and high school, and they would spit on the floor, and they would wear their–their own ethnic clothing because that's all they wear, so people would laugh at

01:03:03.360 - 01:03:18.420

them. So we, you know, we worked with that whole group of kids, and we would not only work with the refugees themselves and trying to teach them how to be acculturated, you know, but we also teach–teach the school.

01:03:18.420 - 01:03:35.790

We held like classes for general assembly to talk to the whole school about what's going on and all that. So those things you might not think of as mental health, but it is. It affects the kids, you know, it affects how they

01:03:35.970 - 01:03:53.050

really deal or look at the world, you know, that it's not fair and all this other stuff, you know, so yeah. Boy, I haven't talked about it for—I haven't even thought about this for so long, now it's

01:03:53.620 - 01:04:09.420

getting kind of like emotional thinking about all the kids we had to deal with, you know. I remember this one 16-year-old Vietnamese boy who had just been here a few months,

01:04:10.040 - 01:04:26.050

and he saw that kids were like having birthday cakes, birthday songs sang to them, and the presents and all that, and he–he came to me one day, he said, "My parents don't love me."

01:04:27.640 - 01:04:42.480

I said, "How do you know?" Well, I said, "We Asian don't openly express our love by like–like other people saying 'I love you' or I hug them, you know." And he said, "They never say to me that they love me.

01:04:43.110 - 01:05:00.090

And I've never gotten birthday cakes." So I ended up having to explain to him that in my culture, in the Asian—Chinese culture, that we don't celebrate, back in the old days in our home country, we don't

01:05:00.090 - 01:05:11.990

celebrate people's birthday. Never, you know, little kids, you know, you don't get that kind of respect. You don't get to celebrate your birthday until you turn 60. So that's a big birthday, you know.

01:05:12.490 - 01:05:26.040

I guess back in those days, our life expectancy is much lower, you know, so when you reach 60, that you've made it, you know, so that's when–when people—that your children

01:05:26.040 - 01:05:40.850

would give you a big cele—you know, big banquet and all that, you know. So, for him to even think—just because he sees other people having their parents tell them, you know, "I love you," hug them, and give them

01:05:40.850 - 01:05:59.540

birthday cake, birthday presents and all that, you know, little things, you know, just affect them, you know. So, anything else to ask me? Since the closing of AAFS, do you know if there's been

01:05:59.540 - 01:06:10.270

another organization that has assumed the same or similar services provided? I-I know you mentioned HOPE Clinic, but I guess that's not as like comprehensively

01:06:10.270 - 01:06:30.110

mental health. No, unfortunately, I-I had to retire because I was very ill. And I was somewhat surprised that the–that

01:06:31.170 - 01:06:49.590

the interim CEO closed it down. I think it's–it's very difficult if you don't have the passion and the compassion to deal with these kind of issues, you know, it's–it's

01:06:50.290 - 01:07:03.450

still a stigma for people to talk about. So I-I immediately was trying to re—sort of restart, because it–it wasn't, like, totally closed. So I had gotten a group of people

01:07:06.000 - 01:07:17.600

together, and said, "Okay, let's see, we don't want—we put in like 20 years of our lives, my life anyway, into doing this," you know. And it's a much needed service.

01:07:17.660 - 01:07:30.610

It's not like it's—you know, it's a cultural organization, it can–it can–it can be here, or it doesn't need to be here, you know. But this is such a need in the community. So we were trying, really

01:07:30.650 - 01:07:46.390

quickly trying to–trying to resurrect it, but we were all pretty old. We were all in our early 60s, I was in

01:07:46.390 - 01:08:02.820

my early 60s, and other people were approaching 70. They all have full time jobs, they didn't have–they didn't have the energy to do it.

01:08:02.820 - 01:08:19.830

So they–they had asked, they said, "Kim, you need to be the person who's doing it." I said, "I am so sick." You know, I was not able to even walk, so I said, "Maybe six–six months," you know, so

01:08:22.680 - 01:08:40.380

yeah, it's really sad for me, because we–we were, we were highly recognized by the non-Asian mental health community. I worked with all the different hospitals, worked with the city, and I sat on certain—you know, started

01:08:40.380 - 01:08:51.890

some major mental health group, you know. We worked with the Mental Health America, so all those things are sort of lost. So if you don't have the continuity, I think it's–it's–it's

01:08:55.210 - 01:09:11.680

hard. Because it's not like a–it's not like a medical thing, you know, that people can understand, they can see, "Oh yeah, you, you know, you're hurting here, or you know, you cut your finger, we can-we can fix it," you know, those kinds of stuff.

01:09:12.170 - 01:09:38.330

So, no, I am very sad, and–and I'm actually—it's–it's–it's terrible for me to know that such services is not being carried out. And even if some people

01:09:38.370 - 01:09:52.060

are doing it, they don't have—they are not providing overall, you know, looking at the whole person kind of thing, rather than just one single thing, you know.

01:09:52.440 - 01:10:07.310

That's why we tried so hard to–to have the medical people be aware and involved in even recognizing what the problems are, to make referrals, you know.

01:10:08.790 - 01:10:24.750

With—I did work with HOPE Clinic to–to include nine questions in their intake forms that would identify "someone needs help," someone needs mental help, mental health help, you know,

01:10:26.080 - 01:10:38.840

and would also dia—not diagnose, but indicate the seriousness, how quickly, how soon those people need to–to seek care, you know. But, you know,

01:10:42.310 - 01:10:57.300

I wish one day, you know, maybe you guys would like to help. Yeah, I-I would—if I—if–if my health allows, I think I-I would, I

01:10:57.300 - 01:11:16.040

would gather a group of people. I can act as an advisor, you know, to help them get–get going again, you know. It takes a whole lot to be like, you know, being a Medicaid/Medicare and insurance provider, you know.

01:11:17.060 - 01:11:35.600

Because if you don't get—if you don't accept insurance or Medicaid or Medicare, you know, it's–it's another barrier, you know, for people, you know, to access care. And we also opened like on

01:11:35.670 - 01:11:51.850

weekends, we'd do late hours so people could come after work, come after school, you know. So, no, there's no one that's just concentrating and focusing

01:11:51.900 - 01:12:11.650

on providing mental health. Sad, huh? Yeah, it sounds like it's a big piece missing from the community. Yes it is, yes it is. Yeah, took us 20 years to build it up,

01:12:12.930 - 01:12:28.030

and yes, very sad. For the future, like, what is your outlook on the future of mental health, particularly in underserved–underserved populations in Houston that might need multilingual care?

01:12:33.300 - 01:12:52.200

I think–I think the problem's going to continue, in the sense that it is—unless there's some major issues, like this hate crime kind of thing, that would galvanize the Asian community

01:12:52.200 - 01:13:09.270

to come together and say, "Hey, mental health is very important," you know, otherwise, we just—people will keep going. I remember, you know, that–that Virginia Tech shooting member was a Korean guy that did it, you

01:13:09.270 - 01:13:22.500

know, but he was really mentally ill, you know, but instead, they don't talk about this mental ill person who was doing all these, you know, things. They–they said a Korean student did it.

01:13:23.270 - 01:13:43.430

So the focus was on the race, it wasn't on the illness that this-this person have, you know. So that was like a group of us, you know, we got on Internet back then, you know, and just, we wrote Op-Eds and editorial stuff to tell people, you know, this person—yes,

01:13:44.600 - 01:13:59.960

it's not forgivable that he did all this stuff, but he–he had a history of mental illness. So unless something like that happened, and then people are galvanized to–to open up and talk about the subject

01:14:00.010 - 01:14:16.340

and deal with it some more, you know, work—really focus on providing better education and better services, I think it's gonna be here. Statistics have always indicated that–that Asian are

01:14:17.370 - 01:14:31.290

like one quarter as likely as white to–to access mental health care. So even mental health in the general population, it's–it's–it's what I call a

01:14:31.290 - 01:14:49.250

"stepchild," you know, people don't look at it as carefully. Funding is funded separately, you know, so, yeah. It's—I'm not optimistic. But given what we were

01:14:49.250 - 01:15:08.500

able to do in the past, changes can happen, right? Because we didn't know we could do—you know, could happen, but we did. We–we started and worked on–on these issues. And I know we affected and made a lot of positive

01:15:09.300 - 01:15:26.660

impact on people's lives, you know, in the short 20 years. So, I think that if, yeah, if someone would get–get going and get started working on this, maybe even as a school project for the psychology students or–or social work

01:15:26.660 - 01:15:41.170

students, you know, I think it's enough to start. But, you know, again, there's a group of us that are–that are here, that we're willing to–to provide consultation and advice

01:15:41.170 - 01:16:01.240

as how to get going and doing that. What has been your proudest accomplishment from working within AAFS? I didn't hear you, what? Oh, sorry. What has been your proudest–proudest accomplishment from working within

01:16:01.650 - 01:16:19.120

AAFS? Within AAFS? I think the whole existence of AAFS is a major milestone, a major accomplishment, not for

01:16:19.300 - 01:16:38.580

myself, but for the Asian community at large, you know? It–it takes a village right, it's not just me who did this, you know. But it's—lots

01:16:39.980 - 01:16:58.010

of people put forth the idea, lots of people put forth a lot of effort in–in helping to bring AAFS to life, you know, I'm the one that was just pumping–pumping air into it, you know, making sure it stayed

01:16:58.320 - 01:17:18.520

alive, you know? Yeah, I think AAFS itself is a—it's a major accomplishment. But then the demise of AAFS is a major disappointment in my life.

01:17:20.210 - 01:17:43.770

Yeah, I think it was so important to me that–that it has become one of my major—I don't want to say failures, you know, I don't think I

01:17:44.700 - 01:17:59.170

really failed at it, per se, because I know that a lot of good had come out of it, you know. But—so maybe–maybe it's a major disappointment, along

01:18:00.820 - 01:18:14.150

with my—not to be personal, but my divorce, you know, that I had 24 years of wonderful life, you know, with someone I loved. And

01:18:14.220 - 01:18:31.280

so it's very similar to–to AAFS, you know, that for 20 years, I put forth a lot of effort to–to nurture this–this–this organization, nurture its purpose, you know, to

01:18:31.600 - 01:18:46.610

help people. So, yeah, so while I'm disappointed, I'm very proud of it, you know. And if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to your younger self, or anyone pursuing a

01:18:46.610 - 01:19:21.250

similar path in life in mental health advocacy, what would you tell them? Piece of advice about mental health advocacy? I would think maybe secure funding,

01:19:22.130 - 01:19:35.770

having a continuous stream of funding that are not dependent on donations. So by that, I mean, like,

01:19:40.590 - 01:19:54.770

becoming a Medicaid/Medicare provider, being accepted by insurance. So those will help you be on the par of medical services, so you don't have

01:19:54.770 - 01:20:09.900

to depend on some—you want to–you want to help the–the indigents. They might have the–the Medicaid, you know, that we can help them apply for Medicaid, and then provide them services.

01:20:10.040 - 01:20:23.960

So if people don't have to pay, so to speak, or they know that insurance covers them, they're more likely to seek services. So, I would say

01:20:24.990 - 01:20:43.100

to–to—but it's a double-edged sword, okay. You cannot become a Medicaid/Medicare or insurance provider unless you have certain number of licensed people, licensed—either MDs, or PhDs, or LCSW, you know,

01:20:44.900 - 01:21:02.350

there are certain things that are not being covered, you know. So, our major problem was I'm constantly writing grants, proposing different services so that people could give us money, we got

01:21:02.490 - 01:21:17.310

government grants and all that. So when—the last year I was at AAFS, our budget was at 1.3 million. So that-that's a lot of money that you have to

01:21:17.940 - 01:21:35.720

maintain to bringing in every year to provide those services. So my advice, or I wished, which I knew I couldn't have done sooner, you know, is to–to–to get those funding streams in line.

01:21:37.290 - 01:21:56.830

So that's why working with a medical clinic can provide—it's much easier to bill Medicare and Medicaid for it, so—because–because then you're linked up as part of the medical service, not just as

01:21:56.860 - 01:22:11.990

a mental health service. So yeah, to get–to get governmental funding streams rather than–than just individual donations. Yeah, think that's really great.

01:22:11.990 - 01:22:29.010

And also very practical–practical advice, thank you for sharing. So moving on to some more personal questions, how would you identify yourself as a person? And this can be in terms of, like, your ethnicity, your religion, your core beliefs, or anything of that sort?

01:22:33.050 - 01:22:49.030

Interesting question. I think primarily, I would be–would be American, Chinese American. American in

01:22:49.060 - 01:23:07.850

that—because I'm really educated here. I feel like I really grew up in this country, you know, in terms of what I've learned, you know, in terms of my attitude towards life, towards everything, you know, I'm more American than

01:23:08.390 - 01:23:21.410

I am Chinese in that regard. And yet at the same time, I'm a very traditional Chinese woman. So it's sort of, you

01:23:21.410 - 01:23:37.570

know, an enigma, right? Because you–you, you know, you feel both ways, you know. But I dream in English, I think in English, you know, I open my mouth, I speak English, you know?

01:23:39.260 - 01:23:56.290

Yeah. So, Chinese American. I see. And what are some of your current hobbies and interests outside of your professional life? Painting, drawing.

01:23:59.190 - 01:24:15.610

Used to be reading, but I have a lot of medical problem with my eyes, so I'm legally blind, so I have trouble reading. Other thing that I really enjoys traveling.

01:24:15.930 - 01:24:29.980

So—because, you know, you really open up your eyes seeing other people's culture, you know? Yeah. I would say traveling is probably the greatest joy, you

01:24:29.980 - 01:24:43.330

know, other than working. Unfortunately, the last time I traveled was end of 2019. And then the pandemic started,

01:24:43.330 - 01:25:01.340

so I'm itching to get out, you know, but yeah, I love to paint. I do callig—Chinese calligraphy, I do drawing, yeah. I think all those so called "artistic stuff" comes from the fact that my–my

01:25:01.790 - 01:25:17.470

high school teacher took me to the museum. It's like, "Oh," you know, "You can do that?" You know, like in—you know, you may notice in China or Hong Kong this—those things are not nurtured.

01:25:17.980 - 01:25:32.790

You just go to school and you–you basically regurgitate what you–what you learn, you know, you—there's no–no creativity that's encouraged, you know. So I still remember,

01:25:33.280 - 01:25:49.990

first time in high school, I was in this—I guess it's art class. I still have it. The teacher gave us clay, like, I didn't know what the heck that was, you know, and we're supposed to make something.

01:25:50.790 - 01:26:07.990

So my first piece of artwork was a little clay hold—pencil holder. I still have it, since high school, I've kept that, you know, and yeah, it's

01:26:08.020 - 01:26:31.640

been a good life so far. Yeah. I think–I think having a positive attitude, you know, yeah, having a "can do"

01:26:31.680 - 01:26:48.200

attitude, you know, like, all these things happened to me, would certainly not have happened had I lived in China or Hong Kong. You know, I would have never experienced any of these stuff, you know, so, yeah, I'm just like, I

01:26:50.630 - 01:27:09.480

am—I'm very happy being a Chinese American, you know, and I've lived in this country longer than I've lived anywhere else, you know, so I've been here 50 some years. Can you imagine? Boy, yeah,

01:27:15.130 - 01:27:27.690

it's been good. Yeah, that's really great to hear. And if your children watch this interview video in the future, what's something you would like them to know, as they watch it?

01:27:31.740 - 01:27:47.990

Both my children are very proud of me, proud of the work that I've done all through. My son in particular has followed and done some–some nonprofit stuff, you know,

01:27:48.120 - 01:27:59.020

leadership stuff, you know. What would they want to—what would I want to say to them? Oh, be happy.

01:28:01.220 - 01:28:14.590

Find what they like to do, and enjoy it. You know, like, I enjoyed my work when I was working, so it was never, it was–it was not like "going to work." It was just doing

01:28:14.840 - 01:28:31.970

something I-I really liked, you know? And not to–not to take themselves too seriously. And be kind to people, be kind to others.

01:28:31.970 - 01:28:50.520

Yeah, they're good–they're good kids. Yeah, they are both–both lawyers. I sort of–I sort of encouraged them—or discouraged them to go into

01:28:51.420 - 01:29:06.660

nonprofit work because I understand why some people don't want to go into it. Because if you have to raise a family, you know, doing nonprofit work, that's not gonna help

01:29:06.960 - 01:29:27.750

you. You know, so I-I was really lucky in that, because my ex-husband was a professional person who–who, you know, bring in enough money that I don't have to work. So I was able to develop a lot of interests, a lot of things,

01:29:27.750 - 01:29:45.020

you know, and also, later on, I didn't–I didn't need a hefty paycheck to keep myself living well, you know, so, yeah. So, be happy, be kind, enjoy life.

01:29:45.020 - 01:29:52.640

I think that's really good advice. Thank you so much for sharing. I think that's good advice in general, too. I'm sorry?

01:29:52.640 - 01:30:07.770

Oh, that sounds like really great advice in general. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been fun. How can I–can I—do you have a transcript of this later

01:30:07.770 - 01:30:17.040

on, or would you— Yeah! I'm just gonna–I'm gonna pause the recording real quick. But thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me. It's been a really great interview.