00:00:00.400 - 00:00:12.760

KC: So today is October 4th, 2023. KC: My name is Kevin. I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. KC: I'll be talking today with artist Kenneth Tam. KC: He's currently a professor in the art department here at Rice.

00:00:12.760 - 00:00:28.030

KC: He's had his work exhibited throughout the US and in fact his work, I think "We played," KC: is currently being shown on one of our PCF tents here at Rice, which was commissioned by KC: the Moody Center. KC: So thanks so much for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today about your

00:00:28.030 - 00:00:37.210

KC: life. KT: Yeah, no problem. KC: So pretty basic, simple question is, I guess when and where were KC: you born?

00:00:38.450 - 00:00:54.020

KT: I was born—I actually-I tell people I'm born in Queens, New KT: York, but I'm actually born in this town upstate KT: called Tarrytown. KT: But I spent most of my childhood and young adulthood

00:00:55.250 - 00:01:10.850

KT: in Queens, New York. KC: So tell us a bit, I guess, about—you know, Queens is a very KC: diverse, like, borough in New York City. KC: What was it like growing up in–in an environment like that?

00:01:10.850 - 00:01:29.030

KC: Was there—did you have friends from all sorts of KC: cultural and ethnic backgrounds, or were you kind of mostly stayed with, you know, KC: other Asian Americans or other Asian individuals? KT: So the area that—the neighborhood that I grew up in–in Queens is in

00:01:29.030 - 00:01:40.610

KT: northeast Queens called Little Neck. KT: And it's pretty, um, KT: unremarkable, in terms of its KT: outward sort of character.

00:01:40.660 - 00:01:59.750

KT: It's a pretty sleepy, basically suburban, as close to KT: the suburbs as you can get within the confines of New York City. KT: But the interesting thing about this neighborhood was that KT: when my parents moved there, it was undergoing this demographic shift,

00:01:59.750 - 00:02:16.840

KT: uh, predominantly because of its high ranking school KT: district that brought in a lot of young immigrant KT: families, particularly East Asian, some South Asian KT: families. Up until then, it was pretty white.

00:02:17.760 - 00:02:35.360

KT: A lot of Jewish retirees. KT: But, when I started—my parents moved there, there KT: was already this sort of like, slow tide of new KT: immigrants living there in this sort of lower to

00:02:36.290 - 00:02:53.540

KT: middle class neighborhood, I guess. KT: Um. And growing up, I—it was diverse, but it was KT: diverse in the sense that it was mostly, um—the KT: diversity was mostly concentrated in East Asian folks.

00:02:53.540 - 00:03:13.970

KT: So throughout my time growing up there, I was KT: constantly around other East Asian KT: people, mostly from–from Korea, South KT: Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, some from mainland China, but that–that wave

00:03:14.000 - 00:03:27.680

KT: had not started yet. KT: Um, so—and then–and then a scattering—a smattering of KT: other folks from other backgrounds. KT: So, it was simultaneously diverse but also kind of

00:03:28.190 - 00:03:44.830

KT: um...How should I say it? KT: Not diverse at the same time, because it was so sort of KT: organized around these tw—basically these two groups of individuals, these two KT: these–two kind of communities, I guess, Asian and non-Asian.

00:03:44.840 - 00:04:02.820

KT: But, if you travel sort of outside of my immediate KT: sort of area, it starts to change quite a bit. KC: I see. So, you know, growing up in that very, I guess, KC: concentrated in kind of this East Asian, like diaspora,

00:04:03.540 - 00:04:18.120

KC: those sorts of people, growing up did you embrace your kind of Asian American KC: identity pretty early on? KC: Because some, you know, some Asian Americans, it may take them a while to–to embrace that KC: identity or discover what that–that means to them.

00:04:21.340 - 00:04:37.900

KT: Um, I think that's because there were so many of us, there was never really a KT: question of even having to, KT: um, identify that identity, right? KT: Like, it just felt very normal to be around a lot of Asian people all the time.

00:04:38.090 - 00:04:53.920

KT: Um, if you wanted to, you certainly didn't have to. KT: But it was just a very sort of, again, KT: easy and familiar kind of social milieu KT: to fall into, particularly in the schools I went to and

00:04:54.220 - 00:05:12.550

KT: where I specifically lived, there were any number of other KT: Asian families with children my age to socialize with. KT: So in that sense, the question of identity never really came up, only KT: because we felt like we were just, if not the majority, at least part of the

00:05:12.550 - 00:05:26.950

KT: status quo to a certain extent. KT: Um, that—I think that would change a bit at different points in my KT: life. But again, it was just like such an easy, um, KT: situation to fall into.

00:05:27.130 - 00:05:41.510

KT: We were never sort of, we never felt like we had to sort of, um, KT: even—yeah. Identify ourselves in a particular way. KT: So I guess in answer to your question, we did embrace it, but only in the sense that, KT: like, it was just it was all we knew.

00:05:42.680 - 00:05:55.220

KT: It was a default. KC: Gotcha. Gotcha. KC: Okay. So pivoting, I guess, more to your interest as a KC: kid and later on to, I guess, your creative and

00:05:55.340 - 00:06:08.570

KC: artistic pursuits. KC: You know, you mentioned in our class that you didn't really come from an artistic KC: family or household, but you were really involved with art in like high school. KC: You did this like pre-college like art program offered by the Cooper Union.

00:06:08.570 - 00:06:24.570

KC: So did you have any, I guess, creative experiences that extended KC: past like extended further past high school? KC: Or I guess what were you interested in as a kid? KT: Um. Oh, I don't know.

00:06:24.580 - 00:06:37.680

KT: I think I played a lot of computer games. KT: Um, I mean, I think that artistic interest even KT: did predate high school. KT: I think in middle school, those things started happening or I was being exposed to

00:06:37.710 - 00:06:53.170

KT: that and certainly on just a level of a hobby and not taking it particularly KT: seriously. But they were definitely a part of my life, amongst other things that I was KT: doing. Um. KT: I guess I had a lot of free time growing up just because my parents worked full time

00:06:53.170 - 00:07:09.570

KT: jobs. So when I came home from school, I was kind of left up to my own devices. KT: And not to say that I was just doing art all the time, but it was–it was one of the KT: activities that was available to me and think, you know, it was just KT: sort of, something that I knew I was interested in, even though I didn't

00:07:09.570 - 00:07:29.310

KT: necessarily think of it as like a future profession or a career. KT: Um, but yeah, I mean, I think from–from–from middle school on, KT: you know, art making or, you know, whatever–whatever that KT: set of activities was, was–was something that was available to

00:07:29.310 - 00:07:45.570

KT: me. And so even though I didn't, again, necessarily take it super KT: seriously, it was something that I was sort of constantly doing, but in the background, KT: never really in school, primarily because the schools that I attended KT: didn't really have very strong art programs.

00:07:47.640 - 00:08:04.530

KC: And so when, I guess jumping forward, when you eventually KC: matriculated at the Cooper Union, were I guess, your parents KC: amenable to–to that? KC: What were their thoughts on, I guess, you know, your path to–to

00:08:04.530 - 00:08:14.970

KC: art up to that point. KT: Um, I think that I don't know if amenable was the best word. KT: I think they were, um. KT: .. They had no choice.

00:08:15.660 - 00:08:32.070

KT: I got accepted into a program that didn't cost them any money, and certainly they were KT: not going to pass that opportunity up. KT: They knew that it was a–it was a great opportunity for me. KT: I don't know if they actually understood what I would do with that education and that

00:08:32.070 - 00:08:43.830

KT: degree once I came out of that program, but again, they understood that it was KT: a significant achievement. KT: And um, I also didn't apply to any other schools. KT: So it was that or nothing.

00:08:44.130 - 00:09:02.340

KT: Um, and I think for a very long KT: time, certainly up until that point and applying to Cooper, um, KT: the arts as a profession, as a serious activity for an adult, KT: was pretty mystifying, if not totally ungraspable.

00:09:04.470 - 00:09:22.290

KT: It wasn't until, you know, actually fairly recently in my adult life that they actually KT: start to see it as like a thing that a person could do seriously. But for a very long time, particularly for my father, he was like, "Oh, you know, when are you going to start—you know, this is a hobby.

00:09:22.320 - 00:09:38.160

When are you going to start doing something else?" He always saw it as like a kind of like a non-serious activity. Um, so, yeah, there was always that kind of tension, but I was also very stubborn individual, and I kind of didn't care what they thought.

00:09:38.160 - 00:09:53.910

I didn't necessarily need their approval to do what I was doing. I'm sure part of that was just sort of youthful rebellion. But at the same time, I was just very passionate about what I wanted to do, and I didn't really have any other interests at all that I wanted to pursue in the same way.

00:09:54.010 - 00:10:10.330

So I kind of forced them to basically take what I was doing seriously. KC: It's a quick jump back to, I guess, some of your early educational experiences. KC: Before we move on to more of, I guess, your later

00:10:11.890 - 00:10:31.240

KC: endeavors. Could you, I guess, tell us what you KC: know, elementary, middle and high school that you went to in New York and kind KC: of—I mean, you touched upon this in our class in a little bit, you know, STEM KC: heavy. But you know what–what kind of profound experiences did you

00:10:31.240 - 00:10:49.950

KC: have, if any, that that kind of set you on on your path? KT: Um, I don't really have too many significant or profound KT: memories from–from–from grade school, e lementary school. KT: I guess, in middle school.

00:10:50.040 - 00:11:06.910

KT: Um, middle school there was an art class, actually. KT: There was like this basic art class that had a lot of fun in. KT: I think that was like probably the highlight of of my time there, if only KT: because all my friends were in that class, and I was making art, you know, making

00:11:06.910 - 00:11:27.630

KT: art. But it was also like a very kind of socially satisfying KT: experience outside of the sort of the–the more KT: sort of routine banalities of–of middle school. KT: Um. High school–High school was a real drag, like I said.

00:11:27.810 - 00:11:44.760

KT: Um, but there were, there were moments that were—that KT: I do think of quite highly and fondly. KT: So there were no real art programs there, but there was an after school kind of KT: theater community at the school.

00:11:44.760 - 00:11:59.220

KT: And I wasn't doing—I wasn't acting, I wasn't a performer, but I was part of KT: the–the art club—or the sort of the art crew, I guess, that was KT: in charge of making the sets. And that became the sort of like artistic outlet

00:12:00.150 - 00:12:17.520

in–in high school for me, you know, that–that theater production. And that was actually like a very big deal. It was like a–it was like the one thing that—not the one thing, but like, you know, a lot of the other students who were sort of disaffected and not interested in

00:12:17.730 - 00:12:34.420

pursuing, you know, the more STEM heavy parts of that—of their education tended to gravitate towards this sort of theater, extracurricular activity. So you had a lot of like, um, the

00:12:34.420 - 00:12:47.770

potheads, the–the kind of the burnouts. I wasn't one necessarily, but like, you know, they were—I did–I did understand that they were fun to hang out with. And they offered like a really nice contrast to, again, like the more

00:12:47.770 - 00:13:06.000

intense rigorous academic life that my—this high school was–was known for. Um, so–so yeah, I was grateful that there was like at least that outlet because otherwise it would have just been like a really kind of [laughs] dreadful four years.

00:13:08.890 - 00:13:28.240

KC: So then at Cooper—you know, at Rice, I think, and KC: they may be changing it a little now with the new major, but I KC: mean, there's this like you have to concentrate kind of in like a field, at KC: Cooper, I guess, what medium or area did you concentrate in

00:13:28.240 - 00:13:44.290

KC: if you were required to do so? KT: So Cooper only had three schools and you–you applied to KT: the school that you wanted to go to. KT: And once you basically landed at Cooper that was your–that was your

00:13:44.290 - 00:14:02.830

KT: major. Um, you sort of decided the moment you stepped into that–into KT: that—or really before you stepped into that building, what your major was going to be. KT: And so that was great if–if you were someone that, you know, was–was already KT: knew what your passion was going to be and didn't mind that you were going to be doing

00:14:02.830 - 00:14:19.070

KT: it nonstop for four years, basically. KT: So for me, I applied to the art school and that's where I ended up. KT: And I–I was very happy to be there. KT: I didn't necessarily feel like I wanted to be—I knew I definitely didn't want to be an

00:14:19.070 - 00:14:34.290

KT: engineer. And then architecture seemed like a–like a KT: really tortured environment. KT: So–so I felt very much at home within the art school as an art KT: major. But within that there was no other–there was no

00:14:34.290 - 00:14:53.670

KT: specialty. You know, I didn't have to–I didn't have to identify as a painter or KT: sculptor or whatever. It was a completely interdisciplinary program. KT: I decided what I wanted to make, but I would end up with a with a KT: BFA, regardless of what I actually did in that–in that program.

00:14:56.440 - 00:15:15.010

KC: So I guess, what were you making most of the time or KC: what was like—what were you kind of concentrating in, like in terms of KC: like subject matter or I guess, what are some like KC: notable work or projects that I guess stand out to you from your time there?

00:15:15.850 - 00:15:34.120

KT: Um, I tend to—I somehow, or not somehow, but like I ended up being KT: very into making sculpture. KT: Um, so if—yeah, that was–that was predominantly KT: how I sort of identified myself, but also in terms of the hierarchy

00:15:34.120 - 00:15:49.090

KT: within—or not, not necessarily a hierarchy, but like the sort of social organization KT: within the school itself, the sort of like unspoken organization that was KT: basically divided by disciplines. KT: I found myself within the sort of the sculpture world, for better or worse.

00:15:49.660 - 00:16:06.430

KT: Not to say I didn't do other things, you know, I took basically as many classes as I KT: could in different–different disciplines, I guess. KT: But I tended to–to–to locate myself within–within KT: sculpture. And there were no departments at Cooper either.

00:16:06.430 - 00:16:23.210

KT: So these–these identifications, these, um, the ways in which we KT: organize ourselves was–was done wholly through the KT: students themselves. KT: But yeah, I was really into being a shop rat, being in the wood shop and spending a

00:16:23.210 - 00:16:40.550

KT: lot of time there, making things and developing skills KT: and just getting getting my hands dirty and really KT: throwing myself completely into that world. KT: Um, that's basically, yeah, how I spent most of my–my time there.

00:16:42.910 - 00:16:55.600

KC: So do you–do you prefer that kind of environment where there aren't these kind of KC: demarcations and departments? KC: Because it's very different from, I feel like Rice or I don't know, KC: probably other schools too.

00:16:57.660 - 00:17:11.580

KT: Yeah. I mean, I think it, you know, it served me well in that, like, KT: very small environment. KT: Like, I understand the need for discipline. KT: Certainly at a larger university—in a university context, you–you need them, you

00:17:11.580 - 00:17:30.760

KT: need different departments and–and, or, you know, you need a way to kind of KT: organize your–your–your students and your faculty. KT: You know, you can't really compare Cooper with a school like Rice, they're just so, so KT: different. Um, but I think, you know, within the

00:17:30.910 - 00:17:48.400

KT: structure of just an art school, thinking about the ways in which it was so KT: interdisciplinary and so not structured around departments, it was pretty KT: forward–forward thinking at the time and I think it probably still is. KT: There are still a lot of art schools in this country that are still structured around

00:17:48.400 - 00:18:06.030

KT: disciplines and that's fine, but I think more and more you see artists, young KT: artists are interested in working in an interdisciplinary way where KT: their interests are not defined by the medium that they're working in. KC: Gotcha. Okay.

00:18:06.750 - 00:18:22.650

KC: And then at Cooper, did—were there any professors or KC: mentors that really stood out to you or had a very KC: strong influence on your practice KC: after—post Cooper?

00:18:23.740 - 00:18:41.810

KT: Yeah, there are definitely a couple of professors that I found myself, like, KT: gravitating towards or aligning myself with when I was there. KT: There was one, um, artist named Walid Raad who KT: kind of started there fairly recently when I–when I

00:18:41.810 - 00:18:59.110

KT: arrived, and he's still there. KT: He was really influential and KT: opened my eyes to KT: understanding what an artist could be in terms

00:18:59.380 - 00:19:16.020

KT: of a—not just as a–as a profession, but just as a kind of like KT: figure within the world, as a kind of a social actor. KT: And there are other–other sort of professors there too, most of them have since KT: retired and are no longer teaching there.

00:19:16.020 - 00:19:32.890

KT: But I mean almost everyone that I encountered there was KT: really influential. KT: These are all people that were working artists, you know, they were teaching, KT: but they–they really, you know, shifted my thinking

00:19:33.550 - 00:19:51.900

KT: in any number of different ways about not just art making, but just, again, how to KT: be—what it meant to be an artist in the world. KC: I see. Okay. KC: Um, and then in our class, in senior studio, you mentioned you

00:19:51.900 - 00:20:11.430

KC: got your own studio with a couple other Cooper graduates. KC: And then there's this period of time and then—where you KC: didn't think like an MFA would benefit you, and then you had some comments KC: about that. So could you, I guess for us, kind of

00:20:11.430 - 00:20:27.200

KC: break down why you thought at that time why an KC: MFA would have benefited you after those years of–of kind of KC: resisting that—or not resisting, but choosing not to. KT: So why an MFA would benefit me?

00:20:27.410 - 00:20:37.070

KT: Ultimately, why I decided to go. KC: Yes. Yes. Sorry that was convoluted. KT: Yeah. No, no, it's fine. KT: Um, I think one of the reasons that I ultimately did

00:20:37.070 - 00:20:53.600

KT: was a way to–to leave New York. KT: I had been living in New York my entire life, basically up until that point. KT: And I really thought that I could benefit from relocating KT: myself, particularly to the West Coast, to Los Angeles,

00:20:53.600 - 00:21:10.070

KT: where I knew there was a really rich history of art and art KT: making that was very different from New York. KT: And it was, yeah, it was a world that seemed really tantalizing and KT: alluring. And I thought going to grad school there would make sense just in

00:21:10.070 - 00:21:27.890

KT: terms of the change in–in environment. KT: Um, I still—you know, even—I think I expressed this in my presentation, even KT: going to school and attending school, I still had a lot of doubts about KT: the–the program itself and the kinds of artists that

00:21:27.890 - 00:21:44.020

KT: it produced and yeah, its relevance or its like KT: perceived, um, necessity to KT: become an artist. I felt really sort of resentful of the fact KT: that you needed to do anything to become an artist.

00:21:44.020 - 00:21:59.520

KT: Like that an artist needed to have a degree–have a degree, have any kind of like KT: external validation, it seemed really, again, kind of counterintuitive to what an KT: artist was as a figure. So I don't think those doubts and and critiques necessarily

00:21:59.520 - 00:22:13.110

ever dissipated. In fact, they might have sort of like gotten stronger [laughs] when I was in the program because I was experiencing these things firsthand. It was no longer just a kind of speculative thing

00:22:14.250 - 00:22:29.970

for me. Um, but at the same time, also, you know, I got into this program that paid for itself, so I knew that this was again, also a great opportunity. I would not be necessarily making—it would–it would not put me in a–in a situation of financial hardship necessarily

00:22:29.970 - 00:22:44.260

in the way that other programs might. And so—but also, you know, at the same time, I recognize what an MFA or a graduate program would do for one as an artist despite all of my misgivings.

00:22:44.260 - 00:22:56.890

So, so yeah, I went in there with a sense of excitement, but also apprehension and trepidation. Um, the sort of tension never really resolved itself through my time there.

00:22:58.510 - 00:23:12.060

KC: So you briefly mentioned this–this idea of, like, the sort of artist that I KC: guess that your program produced or KC: USC produced. KC: Could you comment a bit on that?

00:23:12.060 - 00:23:28.810

KC: Like, what–what do you mean by, like, that sort of artist as opposed to a KC: different kind of artist? KT: You–you know, I just—it wasn't necessarily a kind of artist as KT: much as, like, the way in which you professionalized the—that–that–that–that

00:23:28.810 - 00:23:48.100

KT: figure—that the way in which— expectations about... KT: Studio practice, about the KT: kinds of work that was being made. KT: You know, basically the sense that, like, an artist was just sort of atomized

00:23:48.100 - 00:24:08.410

KT: figure that made work in the studio and then they would present it in a gallery. KT: This very sort of—it felt like, at that time anyway, this very sort of, l KT: inear trajectory in which the artist developed the career. KT: It was–it was—I think these were all mostly things that were career related.

00:24:08.410 - 00:24:24.940

KT: This idea of a career and the way that in which it structured, how an artist moved KT: through the world. I think those were the kinds of things that I was KT: most frustrated with because I still had—you know, I KT: th—went in there with this very idealistic sense of what an artist was, which was this

00:24:24.940 - 00:24:44.540

KT: sort of free thinking, somewhat subversive, perhaps KT: even radical kind of figure that fu ndamentally KT: was antagonistic towards institu-institutions. KT: And so being in an institution caused me, you know, a lot of

00:24:44.540 - 00:24:56.320

KT: sort of... KT: Yeah, it was–it was difficult to sort of, like, think about myself as an KT: institutionally trained artist that was fundamentally opposed to institutions. KT: That was something that I learned from Cooper.

00:24:56.930 - 00:25:15.670

KT: Or, that was an attitude that I–that I—that came from Cooper. Cooper was a very—I don't think I mentioned this in my presentation, but the ethos at the time, and it might still be the case, was a- was a very kind of critical–critical one where there were—there was–there

00:25:16.090 - 00:25:34.290

was a lot of conceptual practices that were being—are coming out of that program. Certainly that wasn't the only way you could be an artist, but, you know, a lot of the professors that I really cared about approached art in that way, asking questions, you know, like, basically questioning everything s—you know,

00:25:34.290 - 00:25:53.130

institutions included, you know, because Cooper was so sort of radical in its way of thinking about education as being a common good versus a privileged asset, right? In which I think that's how a lot of higher education is sort of understood these days. So, I came out of that program with this sort

00:25:53.130 - 00:26:06.240

of, like, you know, I guess a chip on my shoulder thinking, like, oh, like, you know, like, institutions are problems. We artists should–should think really critically about them instead of just sort of, like, absentmindedly becoming a part of it.

00:26:06.450 - 00:26:21.010

So, I think that was really—one of maybe the largest kind of tension, yeah, I guess, going into grad school for me. Squaring that kind of way in which I understood

00:26:22.510 - 00:26:37.530

institutions like schools while at the same time being part of that process in becoming a more professionalized artist. KC: I see. I see.

00:26:38.070 - 00:26:54.270

KC: And you know, I think it's safe to say that you're more, I guess, radical in your KC: ideology with regards to those things than your peers. KC: And you kind of made those things known amongst yourself, I think, especially with KC: that story about how you kind of transformed your studio door into

00:26:54.270 - 00:27:10.830

KC: something not as uniform or as others. KC: So, I guess, what did your peers think about that, KC: or your professors or me—like, what were their thoughts on KC: being with [laughs] someone like that?

00:27:11.000 - 00:27:25.860

KT: I don't really know to be ho—I mean I don't—I mean, I KT: think–I think in grad school everyone's sort of very KT: busy with their own thing. KT: That was another issue I had with grad school, that it was so sort of

00:27:25.870 - 00:27:41.790

KT: self–self-focused and about individual development versus some sense of KT: collectivity. I don't know. KT: I don't know how people thought. I mean, I'm sure some people thought I was annoying, but KT: other people were just, like, 'Oh, he's just doing his thing.' You know, it's–it's an art

00:27:41.790 - 00:27:56.090

KT: school, so everyone's going to be doing something kind of—everyone's going KT: to try to do something that–that fucks with the system in some way, perhaps. KT: Or not everyone, but like, that's not unusual. KT: That's to be expected to a certain extent.

00:27:56.990 - 00:28:12.020

KT: So I think, you know, for my peers it was just KT: seeing an artist sort of evolving and adjusting to–to art school, I KT: guess. For my professors at the time, I'm not sure. KT: You know, I'm sure they also thought I was going through some growing pains.

00:28:12.020 - 00:28:29.000

KT: Maybe they thought, you know—I think some of them were definitely encouraging of what I KT: was doing and–and–and found some of the things KT: productive. Others might have just, again, like, thought I was going through some sort KT: of rebellious phase or something.

00:28:29.000 - 00:28:39.410

KT: I don't know. I don't really know. KT: But again, you know, it's–it's–it's art school. KT: Like, You're supposed to kind of expect—those kinds of energies are part of what KT: makes an art school an art school.

00:28:39.420 - 00:28:53.340

KT: So it-it's no-nothing you could do is really going to be KT: that–that unexpected, let's KT: say. KC: Okay, I see.

00:28:53.530 - 00:29:09.930

KC: And just quick question just because I'm curious, but, you know, you mentioned KC: how you met Lisa Lipinski and Bruce Hainley, who are both here at KC: Rice, as a grad student at USC. KC: So I feel like I'm always constantly reminded of the fact that, you know, kind of

00:29:09.960 - 00:29:23.560

KC: the art world is pretty small. KC: So, did you kind of keep in contact with them? KC: Like, were you particularly close to them, you know, while, you know, when you came here KC: to do the core program at the MFAH or, you know, post grad.

00:29:23.560 - 00:29:40.230

KC: Like, how did this whole thing, I guess, come about? KT: Yeah, I mean, I definitely kept in touch with Bruce more than I did with Lisa. KT: Bruce has been always kind of in the background. KT: I mean, I lived in LA after I stayed in LA after grad school, and Bruce was there the

00:29:40.230 - 00:29:54.660

KT: entire time, and I would keep an intermittent contact with him. KT: Lisa less so. KT: But certainly when I came to give a core in Houston the first time KT: around, I–I was–I was definitely in touch with Lisa quite a bit.

00:29:54.660 - 00:30:13.690

KT: In fact, she hooked me up with my first teaching gig at Rice when I was KT: here. So, she was definitely a figure that was, KT: yeah, maintained a presence in my day to day life. KT: But at the same time, you know, I–I—yes, it's true that

00:30:13.690 - 00:30:30.310

KT: the art community in any city is-is–is small, but it's also—can KT: be quite broad and diverse and people sort of maintain their own–maintain KT: their own kind of distance from each other. KT: Especially in LA, where it's–it's–it's easier to do that, to kind of spread out, to–to

00:30:30.310 - 00:30:45.990

KT: physically bigger city than someplace like New York. KT: So even though these–these figures were–were–were—I could–I could call upon them KT: if I needed to, you know, just kind of, like, with an email, I–I definitely maintain KT: a kind of respectful distance from them, let's say.

00:30:46.440 - 00:31:02.970

KT: And I think I still do even now that we're all living in the same city again, and KT: teaching in the same school. KT: But I think-I think you know, for most—I shouldn't say most— KT: if you're lucky, if you're lucky as an art student, you will

00:31:02.970 - 00:31:18.130

KT: find faculty, peers, whatever KT: that you can maintain-you can be—yeah, you can stay KT: in touch with and they can be sort of figures in your life beyond just KT: school.

00:31:21.150 - 00:31:39.930

KC: And when you, you know, first learn about that–that–that first teaching stint at KC: Rice the first time around when you're in Houston, was teaching something that KC: was on your mind before, you know, especially since before KC: that, you, at least to my understanding, it was—you didn't do much of that?

00:31:40.980 - 00:31:49.830

KT: Yeah, it definitely was. KT: I mean, that was one of the thing—I forgot to mention that one reason I went to grad KT: school is because thinking that, oh, at least—at the very least, I can come out with KT: a degree that would allow me to teach.

00:31:49.840 - 00:32:07.330

KT: I thought that was like a—kind of a worthy thing for an artist to do. KT: And, you know, basically to train other artists, I thought that was KT: something that seemed really appealing and that I wanted to pursue. KT: So–so yeah.

00:32:07.360 - 00:32:24.590

KT: Coming out to–to the core and–and teaching it was KT: something—was a goal that I–I definitely had. KC: And what did you teach, I guess, initially? KT: I taught a—I taught one semester of beginning sculpture.

00:32:25.240 - 00:32:39.620

KT: [KC: Sculpture.], which I still do now. KC: Okay. Gotcha. Okay. KC: Okay. So, you know, like, KC: I guess, in that transition period your first time

00:32:39.620 - 00:32:57.530

KC: around in Houston, and then you came back, what were you doing between then? KC: Were you still in Houston or based somewhere else? KT: I left Houston to return to New York in 2017, and once I got back KT: to New York, I guess like my–my career officially began in–in

00:32:57.530 - 00:33:10.890

KT: earnest. I was–I was teaching throughout my time there, I was making work, I KT: was exhibiting. KT: So doing all those sorts of things that basically a professional artist does. KC: Gotcha. Okay.

00:33:12.270 - 00:33:32.070

KC: Kind of different topic, but you know, I was very impressed when you were talking KC: about how you and some other artists kind of transformed this large facility into, KC: like, studio spaces, like, very DIY, you know, electricity construction KC: and then kind of your own art practice is also very, like, multidisciplinary

00:33:32.070 - 00:33:46.640

KC: like performance, you know, like, video, etcetera. KC: So has this—how do you, I guess learn, how–how have you, like, KC: learned all these skills? Are you in a kind of continual KC: practice where you're learning new things to incorporate?

00:33:47.270 - 00:34:05.350

KC: Or I guess what's that attitude like? KT: Yeah, I mean, I think part of just being an artist is KT: about acquiring skills. KT: Maybe not to, like, the level of a–of a–of a fine

00:34:05.730 - 00:34:19.380

KT: craftsman or artisan. KT: But definitely when I was at Cooper, I was surrounded by a lot of very talented KT: individuals, and I was constantly learning from them. KT: I felt very fortunate because of that, that these are people that actually knew

00:34:19.380 - 00:34:38.070

KT: how to make things, you know, if you-you're learning how to lear—use machine KT: tools or carpentry or whatever it was, KT: I was constantly around this kind of knowledge. KT: Some, you know, because–because some of these people came from very different

00:34:38.070 - 00:34:52.290

KT: backgrounds from me, you know, some–some, a lot of my peers like—or not a lot, but like, KT: some of them just grew up on a farm and knew how to fix farm equipment or did carpentry KT: with their father. You know, a lot of–a lot of my peers had parents that were in the arts KT: or in adjacent fields.

00:34:52.290 - 00:35:08.200

KT: So a lot of this knowledge that I never had growing up was something that came very KT: naturally to them. So that was another kind of secondary education that I KT: had while I was at Cooper. KT: And throughout my time there, I was also working, like, for

00:35:08.200 - 00:35:23.860

KT: money, in the moments I had outside of school with the KT: intent of also picking up other skills. KT: I was very sort of focused on, on having some practical KT: skills basically, partially out of like fear of not knowing how to do

00:35:23.860 - 00:35:41.890

KT: anything after school that we—would–would—that I could derive an income KT: from. But just also out of just—out of my own curiosity. KT: Because again, these are things that I was not exposed to when I was younger. KT: So yeah, I mean, like, learning how to build a studio and doing electrical, some of that

00:35:41.890 - 00:35:56.470

KT: was just learning on the fly, which is not ideal, you know, when it comes KT: to stuff like electrical, you kind of don't want to just piece it together. KT: But, you know, that's not so different from so much of DIY culture that exists today. KT: I mean, now you have all these YouTube videos that teaches you how to do anything

00:35:56.470 - 00:36:11.800

KT: you want, for better or worse. KT: That wasn't really there when I was learning this stuff. KT: So it was–it was really just through asking people, KT: being in proximity–proximity around other people that knew how to do stuff, or just

00:36:11.800 - 00:36:26.510

KT: trying it out and failing and then learning from that. KT: So–so yeah, it was a KT: very—I think all these skills are also just a KT: part of being an artist, at least in that moment, learning how to build walls and

00:36:26.510 - 00:36:38.610

KT: put together a studio. KT: These are things you just sort of did out of survival. KC: Gotcha. Okay. KC: One last question before we move on to the final section for the sake of time.

00:36:39.660 - 00:36:57.690

KC: You know, on your website and kind of, like, your artist statement, KC: you mentioned that you make work about the performance of masculinity. KC: I'm quoting this, "Spaces of physical intimacy and the transformative potential of KC: private ritual." So, what are some, I guess, life events that

00:36:57.690 - 00:37:12.560

KC: have influenced your desire to produce work that deals with these sort of KC: subjects and–and ideas? KC: Or is it something that, I guess, that you discovered later on, there's maybe not KC: an origin story or experience.

00:37:13.830 - 00:37:31.400

KT: I don't think there was a specific life event that put me on this sort of artistic path. KT: I think it was something—I don't know. KT: I think I was always someone, even as a young person, just interested in KT: observing how other people behaved, like, being on the outside of

00:37:31.400 - 00:37:48.160

KT: groups. Let's say I–I never felt comfortable being in groups. KT: Even though, you know, even though I had, of course I had groups of friends, but, like, I KT: was never someone that, like, really felt comfortable having KT: to kind of like...

00:37:48.160 - 00:38:04.950

KT: subdue my own sense of self in order to kind of KT: have a group identity. KT: So I think that's part of—that's one component of–of KT: I guess the research or what I'm interested in as a—as an artist in my own artwork.

00:38:05.730 - 00:38:23.020

KT: But, yeah, I mean, it's a–it's a KT: difficult question to answer. I don't have a particular sort of, like, inciting moment. KT: I think it's just to say that like I was, yeah, again, always fascinated by how people KT: behave and perform themselves, particularly my male

00:38:23.020 - 00:38:38.500

KT: peers, in this way that always felt kind KT: of constrained or, you know, KT: behaviors that seem very learned. KT: And I think that there definitely is some relationship with growing up

00:38:38.510 - 00:38:53.620

KT: as Asian American or it's kind of, like, already being sort of KT: outside of a normative culture, let's say. KT: And so perhaps that—that's one reason why I'm KT: interested in the things that I'm–I'm interested in.

00:38:56.140 - 00:39:13.060

KC: Got it. It makes sense. KC: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting because I was looking at your work on your website KC: kind of perusing around and—and–and the work you showed in class briefly, like, where KC: you got people from Craigslist, you organized them together this like—so for

00:39:13.090 - 00:39:31.280

KC: that, I guess I'm curious, like, when you were organizing those sorts of KC: things, did that m—make you uncomfortable to organize, like, KC: group behaviors, group activities, since you personally are KC: not—or like, you know, growing up or whatever, not comfortable with that, or was

00:39:31.280 - 00:39:45.340

KC: it a different feeling? KT: I don't think I was ever uncomfortable doing—putting that project together. KT: I mean, I think if—in—if anything, it was the participants that felt uncomfortable KT: being thrown into this—I mean, voluntarily, you

00:39:45.550 - 00:40:03.580

KT: know—signing up for this kind of strange project. KT: I think that as an artist, you know, you sort of KT: traffic in strange, uncomfortable situations—is–is part KT: of part of what I was doing.

00:40:03.580 - 00:40:19.990

KT: And there are other things, other–other videos that I had made leading up to that KT: that also involved working with strangers and people I was meeting through spaces like KT: Craigslist. So by that point it was already something that was actually quite familiar, KT: that kind of way of–of meeting people and working

00:40:20.380 - 00:40:34.300

KT: with–with–with strangers. KT: So, no, it was something that by that point I was KT: already—it was a kind of well-trod path. KC: I see. Okay.

00:40:36.040 - 00:40:50.470

KC: Because with–with regards to your perspectives and what you do as an KC: artist, I guess I'll pivot more to, I guess, general perspectives and identity for KC: the last few questions. KC: You know, it's no—

00:40:51.580 - 00:41:05.860

KC: i-it's—well, there's this recent, as you're probably aware, there's this recent rise in KC: anti-Asian sentiment. KC: What do you think there are some ways that I guess artists and other creatives can maybe KC: fight back against this problematic social climate?

00:41:08.600 - 00:41:25.340

KT: I think, you know, speaking out is definitely one–one KT: thing that artists can do specifically. KT: Earlier in the–the beginning of—the very beginning of the pandemic in KT: March 2020, I was involved in this–this—in

00:41:25.340 - 00:41:42.230

KT: a group of—with a group of other artists, Asian American cultural workers that were KT: trying to address this very issue. KT: And some of our activities were—a lot of our activities were–were kind KT: of social media based, but it was really just about kind of, like, drawing attention

00:41:42.230 - 00:41:57.800

KT: to this issue before it was, more widely reported. KT: These were things that were happening within the community and–and no one was KT: really talking about them quite yet. KT: This is, yeah, early in 2020.

00:41:57.800 - 00:42:13.170

KT: And so, even then we knew that this was going to KT: metastasize into a much bigger thing. KT: We never knew how quite sort of serious it was going to be, but we knew there were, you KT: know, there–there was urgency to kind of just—to talk about it and make it more

00:42:14.430 - 00:42:27.780

KT: widely discussed. KT: And-and certainly within the art community, which KT: no one was talking about at that point. KT: And so I think that artists, you know, who have a platform,

00:42:27.780 - 00:42:42.270

KT: who have a certain amount of visibility, I think it's incumbent upon them to– KT: to–to–to–to make this issue known. KT: And, you know, we're–we're–we're coming up on three and a half years of this now, almost KT: four. And I don't think the problem has gone away.

00:42:42.570 - 00:42:55.380

KT: I think, you know, it's certainly less widespread in terms of reporting than KT: a few years ago. KT: But I don't think these incidents are–are disappearing. KT: They're just becoming normalized to a certain extent, unfortunately.

00:42:55.380 - 00:43:15.670

KT: So, yeah, I do think it's important to kind of maintain that kind KT: of advocacy and that activism, by simply speaking KT: about it and addressing it and recognizing that it's still there. KC: Mhm. And, you know, as–as an

00:43:15.670 - 00:43:37.070

KC: artist up to this point, I guess, can you comment KC: on, I guess, some of the things that make you feel, I guess, most KC: proud of yourself or I guess bring you joy. KT: I think that just comes from whatever accomplishments I might

00:43:37.070 - 00:43:53.110

KT: have had with my work. KT: I think. KT: .. I'm excited about, like, having conversations KT: because of the work or like the–the way that my work can create dialogues with

00:43:53.110 - 00:44:08.810

KT: people that, I may not be able to have on my own. KT: I think it's a way of sort of—yeah, I don't know. KT: I feel like the work does things that I can't even control, KT: and I-I'm really excited about that.

00:44:08.810 - 00:44:26.520

KT: So being able to kind of put that out into the world, and KT: creating more complex discussions about KT: the things I'm interested in that–that–that gives me joy. KT: Being able to l—identify as an artist, I feel

00:44:26.700 - 00:44:43.590

KT: like is something that I've–I've sort of worked on for a long time and–and, like, KT: accepting that identity is–is–is exciting and being–being able to kind of share KT: that with students like yourself or, you know, in–in schools and educational KT: institutions, being able to—h

00:44:45.710 - 00:45:03.480

KT: opefully, you know, having my experiences up to now be sort of helpful for other KT: young artists or creative individuals, I think is-is really exciting and important KT: work. KC: And do you think you'll, I guess, stay in Houston

00:45:03.930 - 00:45:18.790

KC: for the near future? KC: Is it somewhere that you feel at home at this point in your life? KT: Yeah, I think it's a–it's a point I feel comfortable and I've–I've lived here a KT: number—well, I guess my second time living here, but,

00:45:18.790 - 00:45:32.240

KT: it's an interesting city. KT: I'm still learning about it in terms of through its–its art community. KT: But I–I enjoy being at Rice. KT: I think it's a really supportive, healthy community

00:45:33.050 - 00:45:50.240

KT: to be in. And so that–that–that keeps me here. KT: But I still–I still maintain a residence in New York, so I don't necessarily split my KT: time 50/50, but I still have that as a—as another kind of place KT: to call–to call home.

00:45:50.240 - 00:46:07.780

KT: And I think as an artist that's quite common to have multiple places to–t-to KT: locate oneself in. KT: It's–It's-It's–It's simply a matter of survival, KT: but also recognizing that there are multiple communities and it's good to kind of be able

00:46:07.780 - 00:46:20.940

KT: to be engaged in more than one. KC: That's all I have. KC: Is there anything else you'd like to share? KC: Maybe you'd like to comment on or anything that I didn't cover?

00:46:20.960 - 00:46:32.090

KC: If not, no worries. KT: [laughs] I don't know. KT: I feel like, yeah, I–I think that's–that's as much as I have right now. KT: I'm sure there's more I could say, you–you know, if you had a specific question.

00:46:32.090 - 00:46:50.490

KT: But in terms of like the broad trajectory of my–of my story, as KT: it were. [KC: Yeah.] That's basically it. KT: But I mean, I will say that, e KT: very-every artist has a different kind of—I mean, every person has a different kind of

00:46:50.490 - 00:47:06.960

KT: story, but I think like particularly the arts, everyone has a different way of KT: becoming an artist or the ways in which they–they–they come KT: to even wanting to be an artist or just a creative KT: individual, let's say, or finding a career in–in–in–in a creative field.

00:47:07.770 - 00:47:24.540

KT: I think it's definitely very, very challenging, but it's also very rewarding. KT: I've—I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I've, like, had in my KT: life and that allowed me to become an artist. KT: I think, you know, like in that kind of pie chart that I showed, outlining the ways in

00:47:24.540 - 00:47:39.920

KT: which one ends up becoming an artist, I think. KT: Yeah. You really, like, for someone like myself who didn't come from a creative field KT: or background, a lot of things had to align in order for this to happen. KT: And so—and I recognized that.

00:47:39.920 - 00:47:58.950

KT: And I, you know, I just want to, like, you know, yeah, j KT: ust acknowledge that it's–it's not easy, and a lot has to KT: happen to—for someone to become, you know—y eah, KT: to be able to make a living in this field.

00:47:59.390 - 00:48:18.400

KT: It's something that I–I appreciate every day. KC: Mm. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing and for sharing KC: your broad overview of your story and for telling us, you know, about KC: kind of how you grew up, some of your–your perspectives and thoughts and also as well

00:48:18.400 - 00:48:25.640

KC: as some of your more recent endeavors. KC: So thanks so much again. KT: Cool. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me to do this, Kevin.