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[Audio description: White Houston Folk Music Archive logo on a dark blue background. The following words appear: Oral History Project Woodson Research Center Fondren Library Rice University.] My name is Norie Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fondren Library [Audio description: A woman with gray hair in a ponytail is sitting in a blue chair in front of a white background. The words Kemo Curry October 2, 2023 appear in the bottom left hand corner] at Rice University. I am interviewing Kemo Curry. Today is Monday, October 2nd, 2023. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive oral history project. Can you tell me about your early life? Yes, thank

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you for having me. Uh, to paraphrase a famous author, I was conceived in a garage apartment on Heights Boulevard and grew up in Houston, Texas in the suburb of Spring Branch which was its own municipal area at the time. And um have gone to school in

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Houston my entire life, elementary school, junior college, and uh graduate. I trained as an art historian. And had a lovely career in several museums and private art collections and then I landed on the profession that I probably should have had my entire life, which was librarian

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archivist for the Texas Room at the Houston Metropolitan Research Center in Houston, Texas at the Julia Ideson Library. All right, well, if we could track back, OK. From my conception? We'll go past conception, um. How did you end up meeting Don Sanders? We met at the

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Sand Mountain Coffee House where Gwen and I were waitresses, my very best friend from high school and I got um jobs as waitresses at the Sand Mountain Coffee House which was quite a um, uh quite a destination for people in our frame of mind at the

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time. You'll remember this is the summer of 1968, so we had lots of loving good happy feelings going on and uh folk music at the time was a place was venues for folk music was a great place to meet other people of like mind. So what

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was Sand Mountain Coffee House like at that time in 1968? It was magical, um. It did not serve alcohol. It was in particular um devoted this is the the beautiful part of it, devoted to music. John Carrick and his mother, um, were very dedicated to helping

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young kids be around good music and boy they had a whole line up. I'm sure you know the kind of folks that passed through there but you can also tell me some of the ones that you saw in your. Well of course I saw Don

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Sanders and Carolyn Terry. um, Kathy Rote. I, I know that you have her in your archive and she was a, a very inspirational person, very brave. Um, do you remember what the interior looked like at the time? Yes, uh, well, it's hard to delineate anything in

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that kind of a dark was was sexy at the time, um. Uh, it was very romantic. Uh, lots of tables, small stage, tiny kitchen in the back, and Mrs. Carrick was always at a desk at the front door. Uh, she was quite the guardian, a caretaker

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actually, yeah. Was this the time when there was a mural on the wall? There was, um. It it's hazy in my memory, but, uh, I've read descriptions of it. Uh, I know that Don was Don Sanders was one of the characters, and maybe Jerry Jeff Walker.

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I can't remember the others. What was, um, Corinne Carrick like? Well, she was a tough bird, um, and at times very, very gentle and very uh mother figure. She was a businesswoman but very caring. She, she loved the young kids that came through there. I think

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she particularly relished being able to have her son John uh so close by and uh part of her life, a big part of her life, um. But she was, she was tough. She, she told it like it was. Um, Don Sanders writes in his memoirs about

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uh her quip to Janis Joplin after she came in and saying uh that uh, she'd give her a job as a waitress, but that she really ought to go someplace else for her music. I think John Carrick talked about her as being someone that did like,

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did like to spend time with people who might have needed a bit more guidance is that, that. That's the aspect of her that I'm referring to is the softer caregiving side she was. Uh, she didn't particularly, she wasn't needy for you to adopt her as a

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mother figure, but she enjoyed it and she was good at it. What were, can you talk about a little bit more detail some of the people that you interacted with while working there? At Sand Mountain? Mostly Guy, Guy Charles Clark, and um Carolyn Terry, and Kathy

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Rote, folks I've already mentioned. Uh, they were the closest of the circle that I I was happy in. What was Guy Clark like at that time? Struggling as an artist, um. He, he was really good at his craft, wanted to be better, always tried to be

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better. Had come from um Monahan's down in south Texas. He wanted to make it in, in the big city. Like he went on to Los Angeles and Nashville and... Right and what was um Carolyn Terry? A goddess, song voice like a bird and uh knew all

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the old English folk ballads just gorgeous hearing her singing them. She was a lovely lady. I, I wish that I could have met her. I, yeah. I wish she could have informed you about aspects of things that I will not be able to, uh, the Jester in

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particular I, I think that that's part of this tapestry that you're weaving about the scene at the time and I can't do it for you. It's people like Carolyn. I know she passed before and by the time I knew about her, she passed away and so

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it just didn't happen, but, um, can you talk about maybe the day to day of working at Sand Mountain? What was that like? Well, it was strictly a nighttime job, but, uh, the nights went into early mornings. It was a lot of fun. It wasn't demanding

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and because of the absence of alcohol it was never, uh, a rowdy kind of place. People, well the young kids that came might have had more than one agenda, but it was mostly to hear music and to enjoy it because it was, it was brand

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new fun kind of stuff you know because we had just come from well you know uh hard rock and roll and before that, the, the bebop, um. It was different. It was refreshing. Um so you're at Sand Mountain. Um, could you take some time talking about

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the major folk venues that you went to during that time, the other places? Well, um, I was fortunate enough to be partnered with Don Sanders and traveled quite a bit in the United States, so other than Houston and say Sand Mountain, the Old Quarter and uh

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Jewish Community Center places like that. It would be uh Gaslight. Um, and I'm blanking on the name in uh Los Angeles, uh. Sorry. That's OK. I've lost that. That's right. I'll remember it the minute I walk out of here, but of course. Um, well, do

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you wanna take a moment and talk about your relationship with Don Sanders? Of course, because he was, uh, every good thing you've ever read or heard about him was, was true. He was a thinker, a really creative person, really devoted to his craft and um, at

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the same time, he wasn't on show. He would listen to you. He would talk with you. He would exchange ideas with you. You knew you were a substantial person when you were engaged with him and I was fortunate enough to experience that. Um, he was very

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generous with himself and his brain and his creativity, and I really enjoyed being around that. So did maybe you mentioned it, but I don't know if we covered it. Did you all meet at Sand Mountain or did you meet in at because I don't, you didn't

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mention if you attended U of H or not. I don't know if you. I did go to no, not at UH, although we did have some interesting, uh, parallel experiences at U of H with uh a particular professor who was the leader of at the time

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that Don was undergraduate a thing called the Honors program I guess. And that same man was my mentor in art history so it was important. Uh so we we actually did a fair amount of things at you UH. And the UH Coffeehouse of course

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was another venue. These things will come back, uh, um. So, um, you asked about Don Sanders. What was your question again? How you met? So you just really met at Sand Mountain. OK, and then um. Let's see where I go with this. I, I will tell you that

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when I met Don he had just finished writing what he thought was uh for him a a seminal work and was really proud of it and was feeling emboldened to continue and we decided that um affording him some time away from working as an entertainer and

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concentrating on his creative work, which um we were privileged enough to eke out some some time and were able to go to Spain and live in Spain so that Don could concentrate on his writing and he uh wrote a fair number of the early works that

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are still quite fresh and kind of great in my opinion today like uh, "Open My Third Eye Mama." Things like that. So what year was that? '68. What in Spain was 1969. OK, alright, so you met Sand Mountain Coffee House. He had just started to write

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and then about a, you know, a few months or to a year later then you ended up going to Spain and he produced more and I would like to throw in something here about two people that um are, were very crucial to a lot of important

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things that happened in Houston and don't often get a lot of recognition but um a woman named Pam Murfin and her partner Don Gardner, Don Gardner, uh one of the two original founders of the Pacifica radio station here and um they were crucial to Don's early

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career as well. They, they provided much intellectual and emotional support. They also provided money which was you know it's one of the classics and, the creation of art to have a a patron or a patroness to support you and. So, so they were instrumental in the

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founding of KPFT here, OK. Absolutely critical. OK, yeah, no, I, I might have heard his name before but I might just be thinking of Peter Gardner. I might be thinking of the other Gardner, but um no I anything else that you want to say about them

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would be awesome. Uh, I am going to see Don on Don Gardner and Pam Murphin on this weekend. I'll mention to them that if you're interested and they're interested that it would be a good, a good uh opportunity to contribute to the the archives. Yeah, no,

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I think that would be really great um OK. John Henry Faulk was uh close with Don and Pam and Don Gardner and Don Sanders and me and Guich Koock, Don, uh, John Henry's, uh, nephew real critical to those early days and boy you needed all the

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help you could get in those days. Just purely talented was not quite enough, uh. And then John Lomax III I think was also I have a picture I think that includes him and you and Don and so what was his and I'm holding a raggedy

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Ann doll or something it's so bizarre. I don't understand that but I did run across it. I've looked at your archives a couple of times, um, anyway. We were very close uh well we were very close with John's father John Sr., um, and his wife Mimi

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I think was her name, um. Real, real supportive community interest in well you know of course the Lomax family is quite important in collection of cultural musical uh history and um anyone who had that interest that vested interest in not just being an entertainer or a

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celebrity but really in the music itself, um. It was very bonding people bonded over that. And then did you end up, did you and Don end up going to any of like the folklore society meetings? Uh, quite often with uh John's, uh, brother, younger brother Joe

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Lomax, who is no longer alive. He was quite active and we would, we were good friends, um, we went pretty often. What were those like? Exciting, you know, I mean John Sr. would pull out some anecdote, you know, from, uh, collecting stories, you know, his, uh, the

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whole family was just, they just exuded that kind of reverence and interest in music, understanding it, holding on to it. Did they, in those early days, they run it just kind of like a, people were coming together. Was it run like a traditional meeting? No, it

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was more of a social well it was, it felt social, but it was definitely a meeting. I mean there I don't remember. I don't think there were, there was a protocol that said we have to open like this or closed like this, but uh, it was

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just lovely. It was just lively exchanges of information, uh, sharing uh you know I heard this great, well, you know, you've heard anecdotally about an incredible talent who came up from the border, Reb Smith, um, people like that, you know, you would, you would have run

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across somebody like that and oh this kid, you know, and. It it was wonderful. It was just connecting all of those dots was just was so much fun and remember this is before the Internet, of course, you know, so it makes those kind of connections even

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more valuable those kind of resources, you know, you come across somebody that's really good or really knowledgeable about the music or has been to San Francisco and says, you know, look out for this guy or this is a great club, that kind of thing you just.

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What was the age range of the people that were involved in the group? So was it still primarily, I would assume people in their 50s and 60s? I was about to say mature adults definitely that there weren't so many young musicians, um. It would take somebody like

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um, that level of that focus that interest in the creation of music like John Nova uh uh John Nova's father had and Don and Guy to a certain extent. But mostly older folks, older at that time they were older. Yes. When you're in your 20s and

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you're walking into the space that your parents are older. I was 18, 19, you know, I was just. I was in heaven. Very cool, very cool. No, I, no one has ever talked about the meetings themselves except for uh John Lomax III, but he, he talked

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more about being uh kind of a child and and you know while they were kind of while the group was forming in the early days and so it's nice to hear something kind of how that's existing. I can't contribute that much but yes they were pleasant and vibrant

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and good for exchange of ideas, um. For some reason I remember a conversation that that got Joe Lomax really excited had to do with Arhoolie Records. What that, what that was about I don't know but it was, it was that kind of thing you would

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learn things there. Did you do any radio work at KPFT or was it just Don Sanders? I did a lot of the um, behind the scenes work. I never had a program, but I was very active in uh the work that it took to get Pacifica

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on the air, um. For example, I've contributed to your archives a photograph of Arlo Guthrie and Don Sanders at the 2nd at the, the, uh, 2nd benefit after the uh the benefit after the 2nd bombing. So I would do a lot of organizational work, uh, calling

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people, setting things up, uh, going and meeting with people who might be supportive of the public radio station. For a while, um, Don and I lived in Berkeley, California, uh. That's a whole other thing about Don, he, uh. It still amuses me to this day. You

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know, people would go to California to make a success of themselves and, you know, and elaborate on their musical careers and so Don being the intellectual that he was,went to Berkeley rather than Los Angeles. But it was fabulous, uh, because there was a a strong

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Pacifica radio station in in Berkeley at the time. And so I did a lot of volunteer work for them as well, so one thing connects to another. So what were these years that you were working with them? At uh Pacifica? Pacifica, yeah. Oh, you would have

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to look at true historical record to confirm that, uh. Feel like it was late 60s early 70s, we had a, they had a uh a reunion. Oh, Anderson Fair. How can I forget Anderson Fair? That's I, I, I'm coming, I'm coming to it. I'm coming to

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it. Don't worry about that. Lived there, uh, was married to one of the owners, um, anyway. Oh, now I've lost a thread had to do with the timing. You were thinking about the timing. About the dates. That's OK. I would say at least. Really early 70s, maybe late 60s, but I don't remember. Exactly,

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I'm sorry that's that's right. Um, I know Don had a radio show. He sure did. And I think that yes, recently in the past year or two I heard one of their shows um I think it was a performance with uh Eric Taylor came in and

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performed and um so what was what was his radio show like? I know it was very, very popular, um, I, uh, was not particularly involved in his life at that time. I was more involved in Anderson Fair at that time, um. I had married Robbie Franklin,

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who is one of the original uh cooperative owners when Anderson Fair became a corporation. Right? That seems like a, a stretch, but it happened. Um, I just know it was very, very popular, and I've seen a couple of those too because, uh, freely available on

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YouTube I think, They're not in your archives. No, no, they aren't. Yeah, I was just, I was just kind of wondering, so that must have happened. Your, your connection to KPFT and then his show. So I was very active before and right after the inception.

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OK, all right, um. Well then, do you wanna talk about Anderson Fair and how all that? How could you not talk about Anderson Fair? I mean, my goodness, uh, one of the longest, if not the longest continuous venue for live folk music in the United States

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and uh the incredible performers that have come through there and continue to go through there. It's a a phenomenon uh a really important phenomenon and it just is a testimony to the kind of music community that Houston has fostered and had the had the seeds all

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along, you know, right, um. It's a very interesting establishment started out as a spaghetti warehouse type restaurant, you know. Um, that's all we served with spaghetti. And then, you know, opened up to other, other menus, particular just one item a day, same, you know, same menu

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on the same day every every week that kind of thing. An important place. So what was it like being connected with Anderson Fair, but not being a musician? Like what, how you, you know what I mean like there because there are so this kind of coming

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together of musicians every morning and you know that kind of thing. What, what? Well, I was never excluded because I wasn't a musician, um, I did live upstairs so that I, I was able to incorporate into some of those activities that may be just a, a normal

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audience member at Anderson Fair would not have participated in. And um during the time that I, I lived up the stairs and uh my first husband was one of the cooperative owners, it was just it was a big part of my life. It just what, what

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I did. What was the space like up upstairs? Fairyland, um, the 2nd floor apartment with whenever you see an iconic photograph of Anderson Fair, there's a band of, uh, pained, uh, windows. That's the 2nd floor apartment and that's where I lived and then there's a 3rd

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floor, more of a little nook kind of place up there but um behind getting down to the um back porch of Anderson Fair was also a magical space. Um, but at the time, the General, the owner of the building was still alive and it was fun

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uh, hearing old stories that would come from him about the building itself and uh one interesting thing about I doubt if it's still there but you never know with a place like Anderson Fair there were pipes um in the back garden where we would gather in

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between sets during sets it, it wouldn't matter after Anderson Fair was closed but they were wrapped with concertina wire that the General, the owner of the building had put in place to uh protect his young wife that he had brought home from World War II.

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He was still a little leery of the enemy. Uh, fascinating guy. Really fascinating guy. You are the first person who's really talked about him. Oh, have you interviewed Tim Leatherwood? I have not. He has been elusive. I see. I, well, I will give you one anecdote that I

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absolutely adore. The General was a very gregarious guy. He had been a yell leader at Texas A&M in the very early, uh, 20th century. Small man but he was a brigadier general. He was, you know, he was a tough guy, um, signed all of his Christmas

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cards "Semper Fidelis," um. But one night there was a fire at Anderson Fair. The General was down on the coast down in Galveston I think it was. And we won't talk about what he was doing down there, but um. When he got back Tim was

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working with I think the fire department was already there at the time and uh. It was obvious that the General had had a hard time down in Galveston. He had uh he had a a knife wound, I think in his hand, and Tim urged the General

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to just relax and sit back that everything was under control. Let me get this right. Then General said to Tim, son. You don't dodge the bullet, you bite the son of a bitch. Just say if you, if you knew this guy, you would know how funny

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that was, um. He was a tough, tough guy, a sweet guy though, real sweet. So he owned the building he did I think that including the section where Tortilla flat was uh. He may have owned that entire block of buildings. I'm not sure, but certainly Anderson

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Fair. Yeah, tortilla flat, was that a restaurant? No, it was a, a dress shop. Uh, is it all right if I consult to. No, OK, uh, it was, I believe it was a dress shop, um, to. Two sisters that John Kerrick and I had gone to

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high school with John Kerrick and I went to high school together. Um, they had migrated to the Montrose as any young adventurous person in, uh, in Houston at the time. The Montrose was Mecca, um. Pretty sure it was a dress shop, OK. I've I've heard of

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it, but yeah, no, OK, let's see, talked about the general. Do you wanna talk about kind of the early days of Anderson Fair when you were there? Like, um, maybe like what was a typical day like living upstairs living upstairs living upstairs and being on top

00:31:49.579 - 00:32:14.969

of this club like what was a typical day that was marvelous, uh, not a problem there, um. This is one of the reasons that I wasn't really comfortable and maybe Tim Leatherwood as well uh. A lot of drugs were done, right? uh, a lot of untoward

00:32:14.969 - 00:32:44.650

sort of behavior perhaps unconventional anyway. Nothing ever Particularly illegal, um, no outlaw, nothing, nothing ugly. It was a A hazy way to spend your days, uh, nighttime of course was work, you know, you had to, the show had to go on and you had to. Uh,

00:32:44.699 - 00:33:02.739

clean up the kitchen, that kind of thing when we were still feeding, uh, serving food at lunch. OK, so was some of it like when you're waking up and going downstairs helping with the food pressure in the morning, yeah, uh-huh. And then um Can you talk

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about some of the performers that went through there any stories you might have about them or well. Other than towns and Guy. Um, Oh I don't think so, Nori, um. There were so many I think the movie for the sake of the song does a spectacular

00:33:29.540 - 00:33:55.140

job of Capturing what that was like that time I. Are there, uh, you know, when you were there in the morning and people were kind of coming and commiserating and talking about shows and or talking about music and whatnot, um. Hm. Were there people that you

00:33:55.140 - 00:34:24.699

gravitated towards that you want to spend more time with that you found? Interesting intellectually or you know couldn't wait to see their shows that that evening that kind of um I would say that. I certainly felt that way about Bill Cade. Uh, George Esling Guy and

00:34:24.699 - 00:34:53.299

towels were just. So close. In my circle that. I mean they certainly counted, but um. No one in in particular. I, I love them all essentially. You haven't spoken very much about towns, Vincent. Would you like to say, yeah, a true gentleman, believe it or not,

00:34:53.468 - 00:35:22.780

as. Rough around the edges as he could be and a little wild. Um, he was a true gentleman. I, I adored towns. We had a really nice relationship. He always treated me with great respect and um. Just a Uh Kept a lot on the inside, you

00:35:22.780 - 00:35:44.510

know, it was hard to what I think what people when they saw more of his inside it was that. It was that um. That wild streak in him that would come out because he had been drinking or doing drugs or whatever. But he had an interior

00:35:44.510 - 00:36:11.300

so you know, he was a brilliant songwriter. I loved towns. Did you see, were you kind of around? For his, it might be a little early. But for his close like kind of friendship with Guy Clark, like watching that for oh absolutely yeah it was a

00:36:11.300 - 00:36:35.919

complicated as you can imagine, but they were never um. Well I know that Guy's the biography of of Guy has just been published, uh, and sort of paints him and Susannah and Towns as a some sort of a. I don't know. Not diabollic but. Rough around

00:36:35.919 - 00:37:09.600

the edges for sure, uh, all three strong robust artistic characters and not in the least abashed about. Displaying and. Sometimes being competitive, but um. No, I, I was fortunate in that, um, they were. It was pre- Nashville. I, I never, uh, associated with them after they

00:37:09.600 - 00:37:34.479

went to Nashville. Well, that's not true. I would see them, uh, on occasion, but I had nothing to do with that Nashville, uh, scene. So it was pre that, so they were still. For example, Dawn and Guy would engage in hour long discussions about. Oh Double

00:37:34.479 - 00:37:59.080

time, triple time in music how to how to work with certain chords they were very seriously interested in music theory. Don and Towns were more on the intellectual, uh, poetic side of things, the, the words, the, the romance, the feel of the of the songs, so,

00:37:59.120 - 00:38:15.739

um. I was very fortunate. No, I mean, I, did you? At the time did you feel like you were just kind of engaging in anything kind of special or did you just kind of be like oh I knew these are special no I knew it was

00:38:15.739 - 00:38:48.429

special from the first moment I was involved and uh that it was worth pursuing and embracing and. Oh, I I thrilled to it. Hm So during that Anderson fair. Time is that when you were? Were you going to UH during that time? Were you OK. So

00:38:48.429 - 00:39:06.189

you would kind of do that you would also do your classes, yeah, rode my bicycle from the Montrose to University of Houston. Oh gosh, that must have been a little miserable. Oh no, no, no, it was a wonderful time. Well, especially when you understand why it

00:39:06.189 - 00:39:28.889

was even possible, you know, to. Houston was a It was a small town, essentially. Operated like a small town. It's right, because the streets must not have been as busy, of course you got that right. So it felt a lot safer to kind of make that

00:39:28.889 - 00:39:54.679

make that ride OK. Well, I, since it is what I can contribute, uh, the most to is. Um, are the biggest contribution that I can make is to pay tribute to people that were important, uh, rock, Romano, just, you know, uh. A king in my, in

00:39:54.679 - 00:40:23.179

my opinion as far as his connectivity in the. In the music community, the early days in the recording studios, he was instrumental, really important to helping these people, these artists develop their craft, but there was also this um. Just this camaraderie and it was supportive. There

00:40:23.179 - 00:40:53.750

wasn't so much. I don't think there was a little bit of maybe backbiting, a little bit of professional jealousy, maybe, but. Minor minimal as As one relates to the incredible. Community of spirit, uh dedicated to. Uh, the music. Scene in Houston it was important I think

00:40:54.189 - 00:41:13.760

because Rock lived back behind Anderson Fair right with a variet I feel like it was a varietyins brothers, uh, it was, it was quite a. A variety show So was he coming in kind of like every day or not necessarily every day but frequently, even though

00:41:13.760 - 00:41:47.479

he wasn't performing at Anderson Fair until later, he, he was more in the um. Infrastructure, the behind the scenes infrastructure. Uh I just Thought of something kind of funny. It's sort of amusing. Um, During one of the very last. I can't remember where it is in

00:41:47.479 - 00:42:14.979

the song, but. Uh, Don was recording, uh, Open My Third Eye Mama for an album. And um. He let me or invited me. I, I certainly would have never volunteered to do it myself, but he invited me to play a horn. A fart horn. And we

00:42:14.979 - 00:42:31.790

must have done 15 takes because I could never get the beat. I, I don't have any musical, um, rhythm. I, I don't. And so if you ever listen to that song at the very very end where there is a fart horn, uh, that's me, but it's

00:42:31.790 - 00:42:49.830

offbeat it's not right but Rock is such, you know, such a gentleman that he he and Pete Gorsh and uh Don all soothed me and said it's OK, you know, nobody will ever really notice you know even though we did this take after take after take

00:42:49.830 - 00:43:05.949

to get it right so it was that kind of sense of. That's the way the show, the show must go on kind of mentality that these that these guys had, uh, and the women, um. It was for the music. It was for the love of the

00:43:05.949 - 00:43:24.419

music. That's what I. I cherish the most about that time of my life. Who speaking of women, who were some of the women that you were kind of interacting with that you bonded with? Well, as you know, uh, Caroline was a goddess to me. Lucille Cade

00:43:24.419 - 00:44:00.290

very important Francy Files. Um, Cathy wrote I apologize if I'm leaving out someone really obvious, but. You know, they were They were real stars, huh, being mamas and. Performing and. And I assume Lacey Moore. She was not a well, I guess she did not not as

00:44:00.290 - 00:44:29.590

a performer but just as a oh yes Licy and I have had a uh a long and lovely relationship. Um, my parents were, um. Deaf mutes. And uh Lucy invited me to help her on a postgraduate, uh, a graduate project of teaching a chimpanzee sign language,

00:44:29.600 - 00:44:50.790

and we, we worked on that for a couple of years and. That was really important in in my life. Because sign language is my, my native language. That it's interesting that then you you moved into this world of music, you think I who never had uh

00:44:50.790 - 00:45:12.219

anyone sing lullabies to me or very little music in my life at all until I got my first uh transistor radio turquoise, you know, about this big, it was so cool, um. The only music I ever heard was at social gatherings with the deaf community where

00:45:12.219 - 00:45:31.439

the music was turned up so loud so that the floor would vibrate so that they could dance to it and enjoy it. So a different relationship uh so to come into a world where words have always been really important to me where words were employed and

00:45:31.439 - 00:45:52.270

music and putting it all together and making it beautiful making it uh moving uh making it smart um. It was exciting right because it wasn't in it and also in difference to the type of music you would have heard mainly as a child it was much

00:45:52.270 - 00:46:20.919

more. Chill the focus it was more like a story, uh, put to music that ergo, my absolute adoration of when Caroline would sing the old English ballads, oh. Because they're stories. No, it's just, it's interesting that you, you gravitated towards music that I mean, you know,

00:46:21.090 - 00:46:42.750

one of the things that continues at Anderson Fair is that you don't speak during music it's only the focus is hearing in every, yeah. Interesting, um. Did your relationship to the fair change as the scene changed during the 1980s, or did you kind of know, I

00:46:42.750 - 00:47:10.830

always have enjoyed going to Anderson Fair and we'll go anytime I have the opportunity. It's. It's like a uh it's it call it a destination sounds kind of weird but um. You just gotta respect that and it's such. An established respectable. venue for something that is.

00:47:11.620 - 00:47:38.800

Little slippery, you know, music, live music is. Pretty tough to Achieve on all levels being a performer or a producer or uh. A cafe owner or whatever. Um, Did you, with your kind of your time there. Because when did you kind of move away from the

00:47:38.800 - 00:48:10.209

fair? You weren't as involved in it. What about what time was that? Well, oh, let's see. Robbie and I married in 1974. Continued going to school so that uh Robbie obtained a law degree. So. Late 70s, I think. OK, something like that. So during that time,

00:48:10.250 - 00:48:27.810

did you feel like the scene changed at all? Did the scene seem like I can, because in a sense that you've been early on since around '68 and kind of interacting with the scene, did you watch it kind of grow and change? Well, I did like

00:48:27.810 - 00:48:49.750

that part of it that it became more um. Less fly by night more organized so that people could make a living at what they were good at you got to you gotta recognize how hard it is for a musician to make a decent living, um. To

00:48:49.750 - 00:49:07.290

avoid having a second job or something like that, so I really admire that, and I think that Tim Leatherwood just hung the moon as far as keeping Anderson fair. Uh, going all these years and I think I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect

00:49:07.290 - 00:49:38.830

there are a lot of times that. It was only his uh financial input that. Kept it going. I'm not sure, but it. Admirable stuff. What you just said is that the kernel of what made Don. At the same time. Not commercially viable because he required one

00:49:39.229 - 00:50:06.669

to think and listen to his words to really get them there wasn't a lot of candy there you know it was. And at the same time he. And I think this is true for Gwen, your partner John Barnard. He, he helped people in the world. God

00:50:06.669 - 00:50:31.520

knows how many, but he helped people in the world. Have the courage essentially that's sort of. An exaggeration, but The capacity to listen to him understand what he was driving at in one way or the other, whether it was a melody or a. Poetic expression or

00:50:31.520 - 00:50:59.189

just the whole package of the song. People were capable of doing all of that, and he helped them do it, um. Sort of Invisibly, so I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world that feels that way, um. OK. So as you, after you kind

00:50:59.189 - 00:51:16.679

of didn't have as much of the same connection with Anderson Fair in such an intimate way. Um, You were doing your you were doing art history, right? Um, do you wanna talk about that that rest of that time period? Well, it was wonderful for me. I

00:51:16.679 - 00:51:50.629

really enjoyed um. Working for some lovely, lovely people who were very interested in art. I was a. Exhibits curator for Dominic DeMil before the Meil collection was uh established when it was a private family connection. So that was very wonderful. I was a private curator for

00:51:50.629 - 00:52:18.360

Doctor Mavis Kelsey of the Kelsey Sebolt, um. Lineage and um. Curated his private collection of Winslow Winslow Homer. I was very fortunate. I, my very first. Job in an art museum was as a security guard at the Museum of Fine Arts because Frank Davis was on

00:52:18.360 - 00:52:42.780

staff there as uh a framer right? and he got me the job there. Uh-huh, connections, you know, it was a community people did what they could to help each other out so that we could all continue to enjoy ourselves with music and just. Being alive, um,

00:52:43.060 - 00:53:03.949

so yes, Frank got me that job, but then I graduated and got uh a degree and went on to be a, a curator at the Museum of Fine Arts, but as I mentioned earlier. Um, Finally landed in the sweetest spot of all for me was the

00:53:03.949 - 00:53:25.610

uh Texas room at the Houston Public Library where I. Learned firsthand the importance of the kind of work that that you're doing here and how valuable it is to get the information out there you said something to me the last time I met you that you

00:53:25.610 - 00:53:41.310

never know what. A researcher is looking for you give them the information you give them access to it and. Hope for the best and. You're doing a great job. Thank you.