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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Okay, we started the recording. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: It's May 2nd, 2022, 2:15 p.m. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Central Time. This is an interview with Kelly Little. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Hi, Kelli. Would you mind introducing yourself, please?

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KELLI LITTLE: Sure. My name is Kelli Little. KELLI LITTLE: I worked at Baylor College of Medicine from about KELLI LITTLE: 1996 KELLI LITTLE: through 98, and I worked as a

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KELLI LITTLE: coordinator for the Humanitarian Healthcare Exchange program with KELLI LITTLE: Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Awesome. So you mentioned a lot of things there that I think we'd like to RISHI SHRIDHARAN: unpack. So would you mind speaking first to how you became involved

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: in the Kazakhstan collaboration and your role in the project? KELLI LITTLE: Sure. I was a Russian major out of college. KELLI LITTLE: I graduated from Trinity University in 1996, and KELLI LITTLE: through a study abroad program that I participated

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KELLI LITTLE: in in Saint Petersburg, I made a very good friend KELLI LITTLE: named Marnie Rose, and she, KELLI LITTLE: her family and and Marnie knew Doctor Weinberg KELLI LITTLE: and the program that he had, which was ultimately

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KELLI LITTLE: where where I was working at. KELLI LITTLE: And after I graduated from Trinity, Marnie reached out to me and said, hey, I think KELLI LITTLE: there's this opportunity coming available that you might be interested in. KELLI LITTLE: And she introduced me to Doctor Weinberg.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: It's awesome. So did you have any interactions with folks from Houston in your RISHI SHRIDHARAN: engagement in this program? KELLI LITTLE: I'm sorry. In my did I have interactions with people from Houston? RISHI SHRIDHARAN: From folks from Houston? Yes.

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KELLI LITTLE: Um, so. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: The partners you I think, if I'm understanding correctly, is a RISHI SHRIDHARAN: cross-institutional collaboration between Houston and Semipalatinsk. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Yes. And so just breaking that down, looking at Houston

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: separately and, folks, the partners in Kazakhstan separately, what was your RISHI SHRIDHARAN: interaction like? KELLI LITTLE: Yeah. So I did have some interactions with the physicians and KELLI LITTLE: nurses that we worked with in Houston.

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KELLI LITTLE: So my job was to help KELLI LITTLE: coordinate the project. KELLI LITTLE: I worked with Sarah Rosen and helped her KELLI LITTLE: set up meetings, kind of develop their itineraries that they would follow while

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KELLI LITTLE: they were here. KELLI LITTLE: And so through that, I did interact with many of the Houston partners. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: To separate from the activities that you performed. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I'm curious, what are the key themes and impressions that you have about this

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: cross-cultural exchange, from your course of interacting with the partners or RISHI SHRIDHARAN: organizing the details of each visit? KELLI LITTLE: So my impressions were, you know, it was it was really KELLI LITTLE: a great thing that our Houston partners did to donate

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KELLI LITTLE: their time and experience to KELLI LITTLE: help sort of train these physicians and nurses from KELLI LITTLE: Kazakhstan. You know, the medical conditions and KELLI LITTLE: the the things that they had in place, they were nothing like what we have in the Texas

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KELLI LITTLE: Medical Center. KELLI LITTLE: And so I, you know, I think it was a really great and beneficial program to KELLI LITTLE: be able to bring them over here. KELLI LITTLE: And then the flip side was also to send our partners over

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KELLI LITTLE: there and take their expertise and see their facilities KELLI LITTLE: in Semipalatinsk and say, you know, here's what you can do in this area, you know, KELLI LITTLE: give their own impressions and advice while they were there. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Doctor. So would you mind speaking more to these visits?

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: What exactly did they entail? KELLI LITTLE: So they entailed, depending on KELLI LITTLE: the doctor or nurse's specialties, they would KELLI LITTLE: be connected with physicians and nurses within their same specialties.

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KELLI LITTLE: So for example, we had pediatric nurses and physicians KELLI LITTLE: come and they would collaborate and learn from KELLI LITTLE: people at Texas Children's Hospital. KELLI LITTLE: We had obviously with the radiation implications.

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KELLI LITTLE: We had a lot of endocrinologists who would share their KELLI LITTLE: expertise. What else did KELLI LITTLE: just really various departments that, you know, we KELLI LITTLE: would always try to hook them up with somebody from their own department.

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KELLI LITTLE: We had emergency medicine. KELLI LITTLE: That was another big one. KELLI LITTLE: So that was one element. KELLI LITTLE: The other element which I would also spend time on, is obviously we wanted

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KELLI LITTLE: to introduce them to Houston and give them a bit of a cultural experience as KELLI LITTLE: well. So they would typically stay in a hotel, in the medical KELLI LITTLE: center and then throughout their stay or visit, KELLI LITTLE: we would plan dinners and events and, you know,

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KELLI LITTLE: if it was during the rodeo time, they'd go to the rodeo, you know, we would try to plan KELLI LITTLE: some fun, cultural events. KELLI LITTLE: They always loved shopping. KELLI LITTLE: So everybody wanted to go the Galleria, you know.

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KELLI LITTLE: So that was the other aspect of what I did too. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I'm curious if you have any anecdotes or just incidents RISHI SHRIDHARAN: that stood out to you in this, in speaking to cross-cultural RISHI SHRIDHARAN: exchange, which was one of the two aims that you mentioned.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Was there something that stood out? RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Whenever you're interacting with folks from Kazakhstan, bring them to Houston just in RISHI SHRIDHARAN: terms of their impressions of the situation here. KELLI LITTLE: You know, they were [pause]

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KELLI LITTLE: many of them had never really left their small KELLI LITTLE: city of Semipalatinsk. KELLI LITTLE: And so coming to Houston, Texas, it was a very big KELLI LITTLE: city, new experience to them.

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KELLI LITTLE: So KELLI LITTLE: one funny thing, we would always put together care packages for them upon KELLI LITTLE: arrival, and we would include things like deodorant, KELLI LITTLE: because they didn't necessarily understand that when they come to the United States,

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KELLI LITTLE: you know, there are certain elements of, you know, while they're touring these Houston KELLI LITTLE: hospitals, we want to make sure that they're not standing out. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, we would put together care packages that had things that maybe KELLI LITTLE: they wouldn't normally use at home that we wanted to, you know, encourage here.

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KELLI LITTLE: And, so that was kind of a funny little thing, but, you know, that KELLI LITTLE: was they were very some of them had experienced KELLI LITTLE: some things beyond where they were from, but a lot of them KELLI LITTLE: really had never been to the United States.

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KELLI LITTLE: They had never really been out of Semipalatinsk. KELLI LITTLE: And so it was, you know, always interesting to see their reactions and their KELLI LITTLE: their impressions when they came over here. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So I'm also curious because I know there are a number of fairly high ranking

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: government officials, such as the governor and the president who came to visit Houston. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So what was what was the extent of your interaction with the preparation for their RISHI SHRIDHARAN: visits? KELLI LITTLE: So the president was his visit was a

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KELLI LITTLE: little over my pay grade. KELLI LITTLE: So I did not have as many interactions with him. KELLI LITTLE: When the governor came, I did, you know, we did KELLI LITTLE: organize some very nice dinners.

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KELLI LITTLE: I think I drove him to the Galleria to take him shopping, which was kind of funny. KELLI LITTLE: Typically we had a van that we would get and we would load them all up and take them KELLI LITTLE: places. But the governor we gave, you know, he wrote in my little Nissan KELLI LITTLE: 246 to the Galleria.

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KELLI LITTLE: But, you know, we always tried to organize, you KELLI LITTLE: know, we had a big steak dinner for him and we would take them out for barbecue and we KELLI LITTLE: would do Mexican food. KELLI LITTLE: And so that was again on that, I think I was a little more on the

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KELLI LITTLE: social planning side rather than, you know, Sarah would handle a lot KELLI LITTLE: of the higher level meetings for those events. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Gotcha. Gotcha. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So in your time working with the office

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: in general, how did you see the project evolve? KELLI LITTLE: So, you know, one thing that I really appreciated KELLI LITTLE: was when I first started, like I said, you might have some KELLI LITTLE: doctors and nurses who had never even traveled outside of their city.

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KELLI LITTLE: And the best thing was really watching the evolution of relationships. KELLI LITTLE: And so, you know, for example, we had some pediatric KELLI LITTLE: nurses who were really involved in the project, and over KELLI LITTLE: time, they would really get to know their counterparts and Kazakhstan and to see those

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KELLI LITTLE: relationships build. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, for somebody to come back for a second time or maybe a third KELLI LITTLE: time and, you know, really watch them reconnect and, you know, KELLI LITTLE: actually develop friendships out of all of this.

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KELLI LITTLE: It was it was really a, a great thing to to see. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So can you speak a little to the radiation aspects of this, as RISHI SHRIDHARAN: in, why is it specifically this program was was tied up RISHI SHRIDHARAN: with Semipalatinsk and why not other areas?

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: And what was the significance of our intervention in this city, in their health RISHI SHRIDHARAN: care systems? KELLI LITTLE: So you know, my understanding and correct me if I'm KELLI LITTLE: misspeaking here, please.

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KELLI LITTLE: During the time of the Soviet Union. KELLI LITTLE: Semipalatinsk is the region where the Soviet Union did all KELLI LITTLE: of their a majority of their nuclear testing. KELLI LITTLE: And, as soon as the Soviet Union dissolved, you know, they

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KELLI LITTLE: pulled out of that. KELLI LITTLE: But there were no really measures in place for dealing with KELLI LITTLE: the I mean, no pun intended, literal fallout from those situations. KELLI LITTLE: Right? I mean, the Soviet Union pulled out and

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KELLI LITTLE: the people of that community were just kind of left to deal KELLI LITTLE: with the health side effects because obviously, you know, during KELLI LITTLE: that time of the testing, no precautions were put into KELLI LITTLE: place. You know, they didn't tell people what they were doing.

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KELLI LITTLE: They didn't try to protect the area around it. KELLI LITTLE: They just drop bombs in these communities. KELLI LITTLE: Right. And so, when it was all said and done with, the Kazakhs were KELLI LITTLE: left and they were left with this kind of broken

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KELLI LITTLE: health care system and a lot of health problems. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So on that note, actually, when we spoke earlier, you mentioned that you visited the RISHI SHRIDHARAN: test site. So I'm curious your impressions of the immediate area, surrounding RISHI SHRIDHARAN: cities and just the people that you met there.

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KELLI LITTLE: So yeah, the test site was crazy. KELLI LITTLE: They did have, you know, we all loaded up and we drove a bus out to the test site. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, there was a rule in place because it is still so KELLI LITTLE: radioactive that you could only spend I can't remember what the time limit was,

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KELLI LITTLE: maybe like 30 minutes. KELLI LITTLE: I can't was it 30 minutes or an hour? KELLI LITTLE: But you could not spend more than a specified amount of time because it KELLI LITTLE: was still so radioactive.

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KELLI LITTLE: And I think I told you this story, it was so ridiculous. KELLI LITTLE: There was a rock on the ground that I picked up me and somebody else. KELLI LITTLE: We were going to take this rock back with us as a souvenir, and we got on the bus to go KELLI LITTLE: back and somebody, you know, with his Geiger meter, put it up to the

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KELLI LITTLE: rock. And of course just starts going, you know, so radioactive. KELLI LITTLE: He's like, you need to throw that out the window right now. KELLI LITTLE: Do not take that rock. KELLI LITTLE: So we got rid of the rock to say the least.

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KELLI LITTLE: But yeah, I mean, it was still a very radioactive site. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, the hospital was not a hospital KELLI LITTLE: where I would want to go and be treated if if I were very ill, you know, KELLI LITTLE: it's just they didn't

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KELLI LITTLE: have all the advancements that we had. KELLI LITTLE: They didn't have all the equipment, supplies, you know, just even the basics I KELLI LITTLE: think that we take for granted. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: That's It's a funny story even that you tell it the second time.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So it's striking. So I'm curious. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I know all of this was formalized through an engagement with the UN. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So in what capacity were you involved with the UN? KELLI LITTLE: So I was involved.

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KELLI LITTLE: I mean, Doctor Weinberg really was, he was such a wonderful KELLI LITTLE: mentor and teacher and boss at that point, when KELLI LITTLE: the UN trip came up, he knew that I was I had actually already turned KELLI LITTLE: in my resignation because I was going to get my MBA at Rice

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KELLI LITTLE: University and before KELLI LITTLE: I left, he was going on this UN trip. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, he took me as just kind of a culmination to see if, you KELLI LITTLE: know, all the work I had done over the two years prior and to be able to participate in

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KELLI LITTLE: that and, you know, see people in, in their own homes. KELLI LITTLE: And, so I wasn't necessarily connected with the UN as KELLI LITTLE: much as I went, you know, under Doctor Weinberg and Sara Rosen and KELLI LITTLE: helped them while I was there.

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KELLI LITTLE: I helped do some translating. KELLI LITTLE: I think I told you this, but I don't have I did not KELLI LITTLE: have the medical vocabulary knowledge to really be able to be a translator for KELLI LITTLE: them, because it's such a specific vocabulary I just didn't

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KELLI LITTLE: have. I was kind of basic Russian, but I did help, you know, in KELLI LITTLE: social settings, I would translate for Doctor Weinberg and, you know, some KELLI LITTLE: some dialogues and exchanges. KELLI LITTLE: I would do what I could.

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KELLI LITTLE: And then I helped pull together, which I still have not found, I apologize, I know I KELLI LITTLE: need to go back and look. KELLI LITTLE: I helped to pull together the final report. KELLI LITTLE: So I did a lot of kind of administrative stuff for them.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So I'm curious, can you speak about any eventual programming or later programming RISHI SHRIDHARAN: the UN implemented, based on the recommendations of the committee and the work RISHI SHRIDHARAN: that you were doing? KELLI LITTLE: I truthfully don't know of what recommendations

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KELLI LITTLE: came out of it because like I said, I went on that trip, we pulled together all of our KELLI LITTLE: information, and then I left the program altogether. KELLI LITTLE: So I would think Sarah Rosen and Doctor Weinberg could probably speak to KELLI LITTLE: that better than me.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I guess to me it's striking that RISHI SHRIDHARAN: if you were not kept in the loop after having dedicated a span of several RISHI SHRIDHARAN: years to investment of time and energy in this project. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: And I guess just thinking about I'm wondering what it says for the

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: maintenance and the emphasis and RISHI SHRIDHARAN: sustaining connections that were once made. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Are we doing a good enough job? KELLI LITTLE: Well, I mean, that's a very that's a valid question.

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KELLI LITTLE: I will also say, you know, once I left and started the MBA KELLI LITTLE: program at rice, I mean, you know, what a rigorous t KELLI LITTLE: ime, you know, graduate school can be. KELLI LITTLE: And I mean, once I jumped in there, I was pretty underwater

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KELLI LITTLE: with everything, you know, going on, getting my graduate degree. KELLI LITTLE: So part of it is also me, you know, not necessarily keeping KELLI LITTLE: myself in the loop. KELLI LITTLE: Right.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Definitely. But perhaps also speaking to some some reading that I've been doing RISHI SHRIDHARAN: independently. I'm finding it very difficult to find the results of the RISHI SHRIDHARAN: collaboration KELLI LITTLE: Really?

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: you and Doctor Weinberg had. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I found one document, but it was very shallow and RISHI SHRIDHARAN: superficial in terms of the recommendation. KELLI LITTLE: So, what does Doctor Weinberg have to say about it all, have you interviewed him?

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I have not interviewed him, and I'm not sure if he's a candidate for an interview for RISHI SHRIDHARAN: the the archives, but. KELLI LITTLE: Really? RISHI SHRIDHARAN: He found the document interesting.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: But he says he thinks that there's something else out there, RISHI SHRIDHARAN: but I haven't been able to find it in the UN archives. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Huh. It's curious. KELLI LITTLE: Just curious.

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KELLI LITTLE: Okay. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I think just the second to last question that I had was something that RISHI SHRIDHARAN: was apparently summative. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Just considering the situation in the world today where we understand.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Incredible tensions with Russia and especially we see RISHI SHRIDHARAN: a response that was initially local in Ukraine. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: The Russian invasion, but that has since become much more global response. KELLI LITTLE: Mhm.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: And especially as informed by your unique experience in working closely with RISHI SHRIDHARAN: this partnership. I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: How do you how do you go about thinking through the situation? KELLI LITTLE: Yeah, I mean obviously.

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KELLI LITTLE: And I did not work on the Ukrainian project as KELLI LITTLE: much. You know, Doctor Weinberg's office also had that element KELLI LITTLE: of working. KELLI LITTLE: And they didn't have the exchange program, but they had more of a

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KELLI LITTLE: registry of Chernobyl, you know, people who are suffering health effects from the KELLI LITTLE: Chernobyl fallout. KELLI LITTLE: And, you know, that's a similar situation, right? KELLI LITTLE: Where the Russians kind of, you know, certainly contributed or created this

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KELLI LITTLE: disaster and then just disappeared. KELLI LITTLE: And the local people were left to clean it up on KELLI LITTLE: their own and deal with the effects on their own. KELLI LITTLE: You know, I have to say, when I watch the stories

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KELLI LITTLE: unfold about, you know, fighting around Chernobyl or fighting around these nuclear KELLI LITTLE: power plants and, you know, even the threat of nuclear KELLI LITTLE: weapons being used, whether they're localized and tactical KELLI LITTLE: and, you know, not as we would envision the huge bombs being

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KELLI LITTLE: dropped, but something that would create even more local damage. KELLI LITTLE: I mean, that's just to me, it's history repeating itself, right? KELLI LITTLE: It's the Russians going in and manufacturing these disasters. KELLI LITTLE: I mean, because what's happening now is truly a disaster on, you know, humanitarian

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KELLI LITTLE: level. Just everything around it. KELLI LITTLE: And then, you know, it's those people who are left to KELLI LITTLE: deal with the effects of it, you know? KELLI LITTLE: And so it was the people of Kazakhstan who suffered all of the effects of, you know,

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KELLI LITTLE: people in Ukraine with Chernobyl and now this, you know, it's just. KELLI LITTLE: It's terrible. Right? KELLI LITTLE: It's unthinkable. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Yes. Yes it is.

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KELLI LITTLE: I could go on and on about all that. KELLI LITTLE: I have strong opinions. KELLI LITTLE: But, I will say, having studied abroad in Russia KELLI LITTLE: and, you know, I do, you know, it's

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KELLI LITTLE: not necessarily the Russians themselves who are [pause] KELLI LITTLE: causing this, you know? KELLI LITTLE: And so when you hear them talk about how it's Putin's war, you know, it really is the KELLI LITTLE: leadership, right?

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KELLI LITTLE: Because that's what it was during nuclear testing. KELLI LITTLE: That's what it was in Chernobyl. KELLI LITTLE: That's what it is now. You know, it's Putin's war. KELLI LITTLE: It's not you know, I always found in my interactions that, you know,

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KELLI LITTLE: Russian people to be very, very, you know, wonderful, like, nice. KELLI LITTLE: I lived with a great family. KELLI LITTLE: But, you know, it's just all those high levels of leadership where you see this. KELLI LITTLE: And I think that's what it was with, you know, the nuclear testing in Semipalatinsk,

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KELLI LITTLE: right? KELLI LITTLE: It's where the Soviet regime chose to do their tests, and then they just abandon KELLI LITTLE: them. So. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: So last question that I had for you.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Oh, sorry. KELLI LITTLE: No, I just said history repeating itself, right? RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Yes, yes it is. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: The last question I had for you, just just to make sure we we've captured everything.

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RISHI SHRIDHARAN: Is that is there anything that I didn't ask you that you'd like to share? KELLI LITTLE: No, I think we pretty much covered it. KELLI LITTLE: I mean, it was really just such a KELLI LITTLE: unique opportunity for me as, you know, a

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KELLI LITTLE: 22 year old out of college to be, you KELLI LITTLE: know, just it expanded my horizons in a way that I don't think any other KELLI LITTLE: job could have. KELLI LITTLE: Right. Like being able to meet all these people from Semipalatinsk,

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KELLI LITTLE: which isn't a town that really most people have even heard of, ever. KELLI LITTLE: I mean, a lot of people have heard of Almaty, but, you know, people aren't even KELLI LITTLE: familiar with why Semipalatinsk is KELLI LITTLE: important or of any interest at all.

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KELLI LITTLE: And so to be able to have that experience and go there and travel there, I mean, I'm, KELLI LITTLE: you know, it was really. KELLI LITTLE: shaped kind of, you know, a lot of h KELLI LITTLE: ow I move forward in the future, even though I don't speak Russian anymore.

00:22:48.550 - 00:23:01.240

KELLI LITTLE: But, you know, just really was a great experience. KELLI LITTLE: And I'm grateful that Doctor Weinberg had the vision to pull something like this KELLI LITTLE: together and work with USAID and get the grants. KELLI LITTLE: I mean, it was really an amazing opportunity.

00:23:04.190 - 00:23:15.920

RISHI SHRIDHARAN: That's awesome. I wanted to thank you very much, Kelly. KELLI LITTLE: Sure. It's my pleasure. KELLI LITTLE: It was great to have the chance to talk about it. RISHI SHRIDHARAN: It was fantastic speaking with you.

00:23:16.520 - 00:23:25.960

KELLI LITTLE: If you need anything else, just, you know, feel free to reach out. KELLI LITTLE: And, did I cover everything that you needed? RISHI SHRIDHARAN: I think you did.