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My name is Nori Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center Fond and Library at Rice University. I am interviewing Kay Rot. Today is January 16th 2019. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. Can you tell me about your early life? Well, yeah,

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uh, starting with the music part, I guess I was 62. I was 12 years old and, uh, folk music just exploded all across the country. I suppose it was put an on TV. And, uh, suddenly instead of the purple people leader and things, us youngsters were

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listening to, they were playing, um, traditional music on the radio and, uh, made a big impression on me. So I started to learn guitar as fast as I could and try to, uh, play the songs. I was hearing that really just, uh, they touched me more

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than other music had. And about the first thing I can remember there was to do was to go to the, uh University of Houston where Carolyn Terry was at the time. Uh, she hosted a, a show, a folk show and, uh, her best friend, uh, Pete

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Wheeler and his wife, Anne would get a room every Friday night. Uh, one of the classrooms, they reserve that we could all come and, um, share songs and play around Robin songs and pretty much everybody was there, but they weren't famous yet. So, uh, Don Sanders

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and Guy and Carolyn Terry, of course. And Ed Beau and Davy Jones and Gary White, um, I was the youngest one being 12 or 13. They were all, you know, like grown up in my eyes, maybe 18 or 19, at least had, uh, had a car

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could go when they wanted to and I got to come. Um, if I made good grades and didn't get in trouble, my dad would bring me. Yeah, I should be home by 11. That was where we all pretty much went to sing. Thanks to Pete Wheeler

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who taught, um, folklore at the U of A and was quite a folklorist and a musician. He was into child ballads and songs from the UK. And, uh, the more people came, the more kind of music we'd be exposed to everything from old timey to blues

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or whatever that person was trying to learn. But we were all real novices and, uh, other than the gesture where you, you had to be old enough to get in or have a chaperone. There were just a few, uh, kind of cafe coffee house places to

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go play and, and hear music and they were pretty rowdy. I mean, there were lots of eating and drinking, going on and people trying to connect and talking and visiting. So that time pretty much leads us up to Sand Mountain. And before Sand Mountain it was

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wherever somebody could get a, a church or a classroom and put out the word that there'd be a, a put nanny or a song night. And, but, well, at the Lomax's house, of course, and at the Jewish community center, John Lomax Junior would have about once

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a month, he would get some kind of folk music night together and he would bring, you know, real headliners from New York City and Boston and very exciting to go and hear them. And once in a while, if you really worked hard, you got to open

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for one of those people. So uh we're all waiting for a where you would really have to learn, really have to stretch and do your best and have an audience that came to hear the music. If not, if not, you specifically, they were still coming to

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hear uh traditional musicians and songwriters and sit down and be quiet and drink their coffee and enjoy the night. So that was thanks to John Carrick and, and his mom mama C that we had that place. So were you um were you born in Houston? Um

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No, I was born in mcallen. OK. I had polio a few months later. So my folks got me to Houston pretty quickly because that was the closest place for the children's hospital. So I pretty much grew up in Houston from, from a baby on. Ok. So

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you, you kind of covered a lot. Um With that first question, I was wondering if we could kind of tease that out a little bit more, some of the different bits. Ok. So, um how did you kind of ended up discovering that there were these um

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events at uh and, and kind of how the like local folk scene was. How did you, how did that kind of who, who introduced you to that? Well, uh we, we would go to the uh local music store which in those days was H and H

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music downtown was the one that really had guitars and strings and stuff. So I'm just asking a question. There, are there other people who are trying to learn these, you know, Pete Seeger songs and all? And uh they would usually have a poster that someone had

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put out that there was gonna be a song night at the Lomax's house or wherever. So I tried to get to each and every one. Wow, that's very cool. So what were, um let's start with the Lomax? So what, what was their house like? What, what

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was, what were those events like? Oh, well, their house. It, it uh it always struck me as being like the Waltons House on the TV show but, you know, the huge warm kitchen with room for lots of people to be there. And if the weather was

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bad, we'd usually be gathered there or, or in the living room and in the better weather, uh, sit out on the backyard and it was always a pot luck and they called it dinner on the grounds. And I know now that, uh, a lot of that

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food that came, was really important to a lot of the musicians who, you know, often just didn't even have a whole dollar in their pocket, but were really trying. And so many fine people came to their house musicians and friends of and like that who made

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an effort to make it just really personal. And um also very exciting because you never knew who you would find at their house the whole upstairs of it, which was huge or it seems so to me was real to reel recordings and uh interviews that both

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John and Lomax Junior and then senior had been collecting American folk music and uh so many other kinds of music tracing it from, from England or Ireland or Scotland, you know how a song would evolve. And so John would stand up, he said he just sang

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a cappella, he would play an instrument and he would tell us about some type of song like railroad songs. And uh some of the ones that came from from the British Isles and how they had kind of mutated into an American version of the same song

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that was hundreds and hundreds of years old. He had all that knowledge and lore in the history of the United States. What was happening at that time? He'd stand up and talk about it and then he would sing the song. A Cappello was. I can't tell

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you how powerful that was. No, I, I can imagine. I've heard the recordings. Oh, he has a very, like, kind of strong deep voice. You have a big, big voice. And I mean, I'm, I'm sure all of us from the Houston music crew, we thought we

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had discovered this, you know, wonderful thing called American traditional music. But it had been going on at the Lomax House for years and years and, um, people who earlier, people, you know, who had been performing the music, even though there weren't that many venues for it

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would come there and stay a week, a month, whatever and get songs from his collection. So if I went over there on a Friday night, then, you know, Lia Cotton could be sitting there or Peggy Seeger and mccall and, uh being able to meet those people

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who were just such ballad, you know, true, true bars. No ego there just playing their music from such love. I think that, you know, kept me in a board. I wouldn't have strayed off no matter what. Um, can you talk about performing at the Jewish Community

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Center? Yeah, I think I was mostly an audience, uh, for most of that because these were headliners that were a bit more professional than any of us have yet become. And, um, I did open a few times though and we had a few nights that John

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hosted of local talent and, uh, it was always an enthusiastic place. All the members and all their friends Jewish or otherwise were there and, uh, very sit down, very respectful and, and I, I just remember people bringing such great brownies and pie and cake and it

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was always a big food affair for sure. That's cool. Yeah. And being the experience of being there to singing to a room full of people who actually came to sit down and hear you was, you know, something else. Um, did you also hang out in the

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back room there at all in the back room at, at, at the JCC? I hope there's kind of an area where, um, where Ed Beau would give, um, guitar lessons. Right. Well, he get, he hosted a Song Circle Day and it usually included helping the rest

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of us with our guitar. Um, I believe those were on Sunday afternoons. That was one of the classrooms or meeting rooms there at the JCC. And, uh, I would go about two hours, go around until we had sung as many songs as, as we knew to

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sing. And, uh, again, there'd be different people who might be able to help you out if you were learning the song but couldn't quite play part of it. Maybe they were a little bit better. So, a lot of us learned our guitar work there for sure.

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And, and, uh, he had come from New York. It was my mom called him a beat neck because he had been around the music scene before their, before it was called folk and all that there in New York City. And I think he had come to

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Houston the same as Peter Gardner did because of the Lomax family being there and of all the interest starting to generate around their music collection again. Uh, I know Ed was an editor and writer for Sing Out Magazine and he came there, uh I think just

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to have a new exposure to, uh, different players and things like that, he was an accomplished guitar player and singer and knew a lot of folklore, performed a lot of real traditional songs and he gave lessons at his house formally. So I went once a week

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to take a real guitar lesson. Oh, ok. What was, um, what was he like as a person? Oh, he was kind of crusty. I think it's hard to know, you know, when you're 13 or 14, everybody seems like they're really old. He was probably about 37

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or 38 at the time, I guess. And, uh, he was a nice man, you know, really kind, uh, helpful guy, but he wasn't a talkative person or a showman in that way, you know, he didn't, uh he wasn't an extrovert that I remember. Um And you

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also mentioned some other places that were not the jester that you said were kind of rowdy. Do you remember the names of those places? One was referred to as the bird. And I think it had a bigger name, a Mockingbird or something. I remember going there

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several times for hoot nanny Night and being kind of overwhelmed. And let's see, I don't remember it. It just impression is they were cafes that served coffee and pastries and had a little stage and, you know, they weren't really aiming to be a folk venue. It's

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just people like Don Sanders would say, hey, can I play here? And they would say ok. Um, so I guess maybe if we could before kind of starting with Sand Mountain, um Coffee House because I know that was an important time for you. Um, well, actually

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let's, let's move forward and we can go to, um, to talk a little bit about the sampler. Um, so, gosh, you were on it quite a few times throughout like the fall of 65 through the winter of 66. And, um, can you kind of just talk

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about, um, kind of different aspects of that experience? Like what the house was like? What Peter was? Like, your feelings about being on the radio at such a young age? Oh, yeah, I mean, I was usually mortified is when I came over. But, uh, their, their

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house was one of those great old craftsman house with the, you know, the tongue and groove plank floors and all the woodwork and fireplaces. And Peter would set up his radio equipment at a great big table in the dining room. And, uh, we'd all sit around

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as well as we could fit in and other people would move on out into the living room. They always had lots of tables and chairs for everybody. Usually an audience was there to listen to the show as well and he'd just kind of go around Robin

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with, with all of us that were so into playing at the time and give the seats a chance to play two or three people per night. And, uh, we'd sit around the table there with our instruments and he would host it. And, uh, he was just

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one of them. I don't know, the, the warmest people that I've ever met, not an extrovert again, but a very personable sweetheart guy who made everyone feel like, you know, their music mattered. That's really nice. That's really nice. I mean, most of the songs I remember

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any of us doing except Don Sanders, who was the only one who'd really written those on songs or, um, the things on the, the record albums that would come out, you know, you'd wait and a certain album would, would be coming out be so excited a

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Tom Rush album or, or something like that and we'd all get together at each other's houses and try to learn the songs on it and play them over and over and over again and then practice all week, uh, learning two or three from how it could

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be. Judy Collins or who knows? You know, and, uh, going to the house there to play that song on Peter's show that just seemed like that the ultimate music thing a person could do at the time did those. Um, you know, the show would only, there'd

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only be like a, and it started out as a 30 minute show and then it became an hour long show. Um, how long would you guys play together throughout the night? Well, usually I remember people getting there as much as an hour early. Um, some bringing

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a, a few snacks and things, setting, helping, set up tables and chairs and we might warm up for 20 or 30 minutes in the backyard or in the bathroom or somewhere, try to get tuned up and, um, ready to go and then I assume that you

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guys would play until, you know, deep into the night, I guess. Well, I think so. I mean, the, the radio show part of it was a set amount of time and then when it was over, um, I'm sure the older gang stayed around later. Uh, I

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usually have to be home. Um, if my dad would wait up front or, uh, somebody usually Carol and Terry. God bless her. She drove me Claire out to Harvey Airport so many times and Frank Davis. So I would be home in time, but I'm sure they

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stayed around till later and had a few beers. Um, ok. Well, cool. And it's really nice to know how that was set up because, you know, I can, you can hear the audio but you don't really know how it's being made on the other side. And

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you're the first person who's given like some real, like detailed description. That was great fun. Um OK, so I guess let's move on to um Sand Mountain Coffee House. I know that one was really important to you. Oh, to everybody, I'm sure, you know, as I

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meet people in different music communities and folk festivals and whatnot and Texas comes up, everybody thinks the whole deal started in Austin and that's where everyone came from. Austin City Limits. They just kind of magically did it. But years before there was even a venue there

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in Austin. Um that was happening in Houston and Sand Mountain was the main uh focus for everyone. You know, people came like towns and Jerry Jeff and Jeff Joplin came from a long way away because they had heard that there was this coffee house that actually

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wanted, you know, people to come and play. And so I remember at, at opening uh John Carrick was a few years older than I was and we had a little musical crew of teenagers that we went to each other's houses too. And so excited he and

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mom c had actually made this happen in this old house that it was gonna be a real stage in the sound system or just the Benes, you know, so we were there. It wasn't the murals that you see in the later pictures. Uh But the walls

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were just kind of blank. So all of us teeny boppers who were there painting our very best, whatever we could paint on the wall and trying to make it into a, a nifty coffee house had been a dance space, I think before. And uh then the

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opening night, I was one of the people playing that night and the room was full and I was so scared. I sat on a chair. Oh my God. It was a folding chair. It all. We had those rickety wooden kind of folding chairs and I was

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trying to sit down and get my guitar and, and not, you know, make too much noise and I sat on the edge of it and it, and I set off my butt on the floor so fast. Oh, uh but uh I managed to do my set

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there and after that, uh just more and more people were attracted to come to Sand Mountain. So there got to be music, more nights a week till it was every night. But Monday night was Mama C's night off because she sat there at the door every

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night to clothes and taking money and, uh, overseeing everything. And most of us also just helped out because we would have wanted to no matter what. But it was kind of a little job. Might take a turn in the kitchen, uh, for a couple hours, whether

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that was washing dishes or, uh, putting on more coffee or waiting tables, things like that. That's was kind of towns. First job there at Sam Mountain was, he lived upstairs and he was sort of the janitor night watchman and come down before the, that place opened

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and put all the chairs down off the tables and, uh, get the kitchen ready to go, stuff like that. So, we all took a turn and it was a local, even though people came, you know, from big cities and recording artists, it was very much a

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local venue where people grew up playing the music that they ended up playing. Uh, some of us for, you know, as long as we did some work for their life's passion and career. But that was home. Um, do you want, can you still remember what it

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looked like on the inside? Oh, yeah. Um, you went in a front door when it was a house, I guess, maybe that had been a foyer. So, um, the little table for taking the money. Was right there, you know, and then off to the left of

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that was a room maybe 10 by 11. But, you know, a small room and it was always nice and dark and smoky, you know, very exotic to someone like me from the suburbs and people wrote their pictures, uh hung them on the wall to sell. And

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behind that part of the entrance was the famous back room where was mainly used to tune up, but sometimes it could have a little private concert back there too. And the restrooms and then the main room uh opened into that little area, opened into the big

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main room, which was a good size venue with the stage and the tables and chairs and uh kitchen behind that and uh upstairs was kind of converted into a little apartment. Mama c used a room up there to keep her books and oh, sometimes she'd sleep

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over because it was a long drive home for her. Then it became an apartment where different people, um stayed and brought their music to town and developed their music for sure. And uh we often all would be up there visiting, you know, drinking coffee and with

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the arty, the art of the folk guitar book, just pouring over that light, crazy trying to learn how to finger pick really well, it was um, otherwise like any other club, there was kind of night lighting, the room was dark but still well lit So the

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stage was better lit, floors were hard wood and it was just an old, old Houston house, you know, brick house. Ok, cool. Um, so I guess, I think that it might be kind of interesting for kind of you to talk about some of the different kind

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of major players or characters you've talked about, um, uh Peter Gardner and Ed Beau and, um, John Lomax Junior. Could you talk about other people in the scene that you, um, either kind of knew or you kind of watch from afar that you found were interesting

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that made an impression on you. Uh Well, oldest and dearest is John Kerrick. And uh we went around a lot together before he joined the Marines. And uh he was always real good to me even though he was several years older and there were lots of

00:25:25.290 - 00:25:39.880

exciting parties for, for guys like him to go to. He, he drove me to and from lots of stuff and we sat down and, and learned songs. He was an accomplished player by then because he had been in a rock and roll band in high school.

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So he was used to being on the stage and wasn't the least bit shy either. Yeah, he was encouraging to everybody else who was playing, whether they were just learning or uh really good. He wasn't uh selfish with any venues or, or jobs he had, he'd

00:26:01.989 - 00:26:22.489

always tell you come on down, you know, I'll play it and, uh, and you can get up and do a spot too. So there with him and, um, Carolyn Terry, I think stands out the most. She was, uh, a person who not only did her radio

00:26:22.500 - 00:26:40.000

show and she was always there early to help with whatever venue, even if she was just coming to hear the music that night, she would be there setting up chairs and talking to people and really hosting whatever went on and that we hung out quite a

00:26:40.010 - 00:26:57.709

bit. She was a character for sure. Um, she drove this whole metropolitan car. Do you know what they look like? No, I don't. Oh, they were, they're the tiniest, you know, true car. Real Car on the road. They kind of look like the car that Minnie

00:26:57.719 - 00:27:14.260

Mouse drove it. Ok, little tiny thing. The wheels were about, you know, maybe 14 inches in diameter and Carolyn was pretty close to 6 ft tall, tall and lanky and I was 4 ft eight. So we were up here and we would get in this little

00:27:14.270 - 00:27:31.099

car and she was so tall and at the top of her head, she was a flaming redhead too, would be touching, you know, the, the ceiling of her car and we would go to whatever, you know, kind of folk festival or thing was happening. And, uh,

00:27:31.479 - 00:27:47.630

she had a, a great voice, she excelled, you know, doing songs with a whole lot of range. She was a soprano and uh she's just funny as hell. I, I don't know if I can explain how goofy this woman could be, but as close as I

00:27:47.640 - 00:28:07.040

could come to, uh to a personality might be Carol Burnett. You never knew what Carolyn was gonna do or say, but it would be genuine from the heart and uh not what anyone was expecting either. She was at a school teacher, kids, of course, just thought

00:28:07.050 - 00:28:30.939

she on the moon. And I can't really remember going out for any kind of musical event that Carolyn Terry wasn't there. Yeah. I, I'm really sad that I wasn't able to connect with her before she passed. Yeah. Yeah, because she stayed there in Houston did music

00:28:30.949 - 00:28:48.209

as long as there was any place to do it, I think. Right. And, uh, well, my other, uh, BFF as they call them now is Susie Spa who later became Guy Clark's wife, Susan Clark. And, uh, she was a, a few years older, but we were

00:28:48.359 - 00:29:11.069

two high school girls who loved to go to the junk shops, you know, down on, uh, oh, what, where was the long strip of places with goodwill stores? And you could find anything from a record album to a, a cowboy shirt. West West Timer or West

00:29:11.130 - 00:29:27.630

Gray. I, I could see that it could be at either place. Yeah. And that was, uh, really fun. We'd go on there and try to find, glad rags to wear out to play and sing and hopefully look like Joni Mitchell in, you know, uh she would

00:29:27.640 - 00:29:42.329

often be at home alone or, you know, she was pregnant too, the first baby and a young woman. So she would be there and I would go stay at her house over the weekend if guy was out playing somewhere and we would have a great time

00:29:42.339 - 00:30:02.739

coloring each other's hair. We do her blonde. She's a beautiful blonde anyway. But you know, the, the highlight stuff we do mine in Auburn and, uh, just do girl stuff, you know, talk about the various guys on the scene and, uh, I think of all the

00:30:02.750 - 00:30:20.859

female musicians I knew there, Susie was and pro and still is for that matter, one of the most eloquent musicians, she was real well schooled, a real musician. The rest of us couldn't read a note of music but Susie could and she's very accomplished even as

00:30:20.869 - 00:30:41.469

a teenager and had this lovely sweet singing voice, lots of texture and character to it when she came to sing, everybody just to the silence, even if people were having fun in the corner talking and all because she was just so sweet and so pretty. So

00:30:41.479 - 00:31:01.770

I spent a lot of time at the clerk's house that way. And, um, most of the rest of my buddies were from Peter Gardner's efforts and, you know, Mr Lomax is to some extent and s they would try to make, uh, little concert tours or routes

00:31:01.910 - 00:31:21.479

that people could go and do a house concert of some kind and, uh, meet a new audience and move the musicians around so to speak. So little towns from Houston, like Nanes Sota College Station, um, went to so Ross one time even way out there, but

00:31:21.489 - 00:31:39.489

usually not that far. Baytown and you might play it at JCC or at somebody's house or whatever that, uh, people in that town that loved the music whenever they had to invite people to. And so we would go out two by two and, uh, do a

00:31:39.500 - 00:32:02.780

nights concert shared between two people and, uh, I did that with Guy and Carolyn of course. And Don, and mostly with towns, I guess people liked the combination because we were a nice, uh, what would you call it? Just a very different sorts of musicians, anything

00:32:02.790 - 00:32:22.660

similar about what we did or said or how we looked. And, uh, so I got to know him. They were so great driving along the road talking with him and, uh, we talked about all kinds of stuff, you know, philosophy and life and how weird people

00:32:22.670 - 00:32:49.719

are, things like that. He was a real gentleman. Always, always aware of other people and how they felt. Mhm. It was one of the few people I knew that didn't withdraw, you know, if somebody was upset or hurting or defeated, he didn't pull away from people.

00:32:50.550 - 00:33:14.989

You know, that had scary things about them. That, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. You've talked a little bit about, um, Don Sanders. Yeah. Yeah. Could you go into a little bit more detail about him as a young man? Sure. He had a crush on

00:33:15.000 - 00:33:29.770

my big sister. They went to high school together and that's how I first met Don, was, he came out to pick up my sister and I had this old robot guitar, somebody had wanted me to try and learn to play and he, you know, spotted that

00:33:29.780 - 00:33:50.300

right away. And, and so what you doing in there? And it invited me to some of the early efforts to get folk music going in town, uh off and over at his house. And, uh, you know, he looked up until, you know, he passed away recently

00:33:50.650 - 00:34:10.750

had a few lines, but he looked exactly the same year after year after year, he was an elf. I have referred to him in exactly the same way, you know, he was a lively person and, and a brave one. I mean, he's the first person to

00:34:10.760 - 00:34:28.600

sit down and say, well, I can write a song and, uh gosh, his songs were so unique. He didn't uh try to sound like anyone else or he just uh let her come out however it did. And I, I was so impressed by that and what

00:34:28.610 - 00:34:44.379

often he was one of the people, my mom and dad approved of. So I got to go to his house because even though he had a, a long war ponytail, which my mom was sure all communists had. Um, he was, he was, he knew how to

00:34:44.389 - 00:35:01.360

be around your parents for sure. And, uh, and he also was a totally trustworthy, great guy. But, uh, we used to go hang out at this place near Sand Mountain called the ones a meal. It was open all night and for a dollar you could get

00:35:01.370 - 00:35:18.080

a basket of terribly greasy food, but it was great. It was a big old place. I don't know how many tables it held. Just noise is usually full of, you know, a students and especially after it came and we just kind of had our own resident

00:35:18.090 - 00:35:31.659

table. Don lived near there as did guy and, and Carolyn and a bunch of them. So, if you wanted to find anyone, you went down to a meal and sat at that table for a while and pretty soon everybody would come in or out if you

00:35:31.669 - 00:35:48.439

need to ask them something. Nobody had cell phones but Don held court there quite a bit and was a great favorite with all the waitresses who otherwise were pretty crusty and sick of young people, you know, demanding this and wanting that and running their legs off.

00:35:48.449 - 00:36:12.129

Well, they love Donnie Joe. You can imagine. Uh, can you talk a little bit about, uh, since you spent a lot of time at his home, uh, about Guy Clark. Well, I mean, um, when I knew him he hadn't written any songs, he wasn't famous in

00:36:12.139 - 00:36:31.520

any way. And, um, he wanted to be, you know, he was really focused on that more than anybody I've met since I think. Um, he was pretty aloof. Um, to me, especially because I was so much younger and, and I walked on crutches and braces and

00:36:31.530 - 00:36:48.270

I think he was one of those people that gets real uncomfortable around anyone disabled or sick. So he didn't make a lot of effort to get to know me. And I felt pretty shy around him as well because he was just an instant hit with people

00:36:48.280 - 00:37:05.379

even when he could hardly sing a note in the bucket or play guitar and where the ban, he just kind of come in in a room when he came in the room, people just deferred to him instantly, you know, uh, including myself. So, um, I went

00:37:05.830 - 00:37:28.479

a couple of times out on one of those little tours to play at a place with a house concert. And I just remember, you know, enjoying seeing him, um, play and sing, uh, didn't have a lot of connection with him and that I, I've, I've read

00:37:28.489 - 00:37:47.560

the same kind of thing that, yeah, there could be some distance. So, so he put himself out for people that were, um, really involved in the whole folk music. Scene. Right. Had a, had a bad habit of ignoring waitresses and people who helped to put her

00:37:47.570 - 00:38:10.479

on the show that night and brought the coffee. He, he didn't tend to get to know them very much. I have read that he ended up meeting towns at one of Peter Gardner's events at his home, I'm sure. Yeah. Ok. Um, I wasn't sure if you

00:38:10.489 - 00:38:31.479

were around for anything like that because it seems like maybe town started to play around October or November of 65. Yeah, I, I met him first. Remember him coming into Sam Milton and as a new musician looking for somewhere to play, looking to see what was

00:38:31.489 - 00:38:52.419

going on and, uh, talking with and, uh, it was an open mic night so he got up and played and we were so loud, you know, by that. Um, and I'm sure he was at almost all the radio nights at Peter's house. Everybody was, that was

00:38:52.429 - 00:39:09.689

just the place to be. And, uh, whether guy met him there or at Sand Mountain Open Mic, I don't really know. Right. But probably right. Was in that week anyhow. Yeah. No, that, that makes sense. And then did you, um, did you know that in the

00:39:09.699 - 00:39:34.169

very beginning he didn't bill himself as towns. He went as John? Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that for a long time. I don't know why. Yeah, he, um, I didn't know that but, um, in one of those, uh, Peter Gardner's recordings, someone starts talking about

00:39:34.179 - 00:39:53.590

him and refers to him as, as John who plays that KKK or the karate, whichever one of those talking blue songs that he did and, um, refers to that. And then, um, and so then I started like, uh, oh, they're, they're talking about towns but they're

00:39:53.600 - 00:40:11.510

calling him John. And then I looked up and I could find in the chronicle that there are a few ads of him playing at the Jester as, as John Van Zant. Huh? Yeah, I wonder if town was his middle name? That just sound better. That's, yeah.

00:40:11.520 - 00:40:32.580

No, I, I think, yeah, I think he, he is, um, John Town's ban A so, yeah, I, I think, yeah, town sounds a lot cooler than, than John. Yeah, there were lots of, yeah. Um, was there anybody else that you would like to, um, talk about

00:40:33.459 - 00:40:55.320

from that time period? Well, let's see. No, I mostly remember the people that I mentioned there. Those are the people that I run around with and I saw turn off all week. I can tell you a sweet story about towns though, if there's time. Yeah, of

00:40:55.330 - 00:41:12.139

course. Typical story. Um, we've gone to Baytown to play a house concert and came back with this terrible fog on the freeway. It was just open the door and kind of find your way. So we made it back into Houston. I was supposed to spend the

00:41:12.149 - 00:41:27.280

night that night at Susie's Spots and, uh, their light was out. We didn't know where everybody was. So we went to the one and of course, and it was, oh, it was a rowdy horrible night. It was a game night guys were screaming and yelling and

00:41:27.649 - 00:41:45.520

there was a waitress there. She was quite old. Probably had to be in her mid seventies anyway. And it was, you know, one o'clock in the morning, it was really late and she just looked more exhausted than anyone I've ever seen. And, uh, got it finally

00:41:45.530 - 00:42:03.550

over to our table and apologized and, uh, we ordered coffee and, um, towns looked up and he said, now, are you? Ok, ma'am. And she said, 00, I'm all right, son, I'm just tired, I'm just tired. And she said, well, you sit down here and I'll

00:42:03.560 - 00:42:19.810

go over there and get that copy. Uh, you just take a little break and there are some students yelling, hey, doll face, you know, we can get some more over here. And, uh, he got them some coffee too. He brought us some coffee from the tray,

00:42:19.820 - 00:42:33.989

you know, that they used to have sitting out a service tray and this lady was just sitting there, I'm sure she was embarrassed and worried that, you know, the owner might be looking out wondering what she was doing, but she was just too tired, I think,

00:42:34.000 - 00:42:51.639

to go much further. He sat down and he said, no, it's somebody your age doing, working in a place like this full of such rude teenagers, you know. And she said, oh, well, I, I'm just, I'm widowed and, uh, I've got to have a job or

00:42:51.949 - 00:43:08.209

I'll lose my house. And so he talked to her for a minute and let her rest. And, um, she went on her way and we got ready to leave and pay up and I went back to the table to, when I had some change to put

00:43:08.219 - 00:43:35.790

a tip and the man had left us $50 under the cup that he had made that night. Sure. That's really nice. Yeah. Anyone that knows him. That'll make perfect sense. Yeah. Well, you had all of these experiences in like, kind of middle school to high school.

00:43:36.040 - 00:43:58.459

Um, then, um, I remember when we spoke before that you kind of, you, you left Houston to attend college and you really never returned. Is that correct? It is. Yeah. I came out to Tucson in about uh 60 late 68 and, uh, went to a semester

00:43:58.469 - 00:44:15.159

of school out here of high school and then I came back to Houston for a bit in 69 and ultimately moved out here to go to the University of Arizona. So, and then do you want to take a moment just to kind of say like where

00:44:15.169 - 00:44:36.070

your life ended up taking you? Yeah. Not where I thought, um, I did, you know, played professionally out for several years and, uh, then needed a real job when people weren't too interested in acoustic music anymore. And I was working around Tucson at what I could.

00:44:36.370 - 00:44:55.129

Um, it turned out to be a job, um, at a place that served people with mental disabilities, it was like a, a sheltered workshop. And, uh, I hated, I hated the whole treatment of, of everybody that was there who were just a little bit more disabled

00:44:55.139 - 00:45:15.000

than myself, but were persona non grata on the count of it. So I was trying to find somewhere something to do that would be human services. But uh more like it ought to be. And about that time, the disability rights movement that started in Berkeley and

00:45:15.010 - 00:45:31.399

resulted in the Americans with Disabilities Act. Um It was all going on up there and I had a, a dear friend who was there also a paraplegic woman and uh she just came to town one day and said, drop what you're doing because you have to

00:45:31.560 - 00:45:49.870

come join us. This is where it's at, you know, so I spent pretty much the next what, 18 years up there, um working on the notion of independent living for people with any, any kind of disability and um the laws, you know, we, we worked to

00:45:49.879 - 00:46:07.780

change the laws to get kids mainstreamed in school. Like when I was a kid, even though I was very physically able on my crutches, I, the school could legally turn me away, which they did. And, um, so that was, ended up being my life's work. But

00:46:08.689 - 00:46:22.790

I did a lot of music around Berkeley and the Bay area for a while too and got to meet a lot of cool people and go back and forth to Carville with them, you know, and I kind of dabble at this point. I sent you some

00:46:22.800 - 00:46:38.719

songs they're from probably the last CD I made a little while ago and it, to be one of my first loves, I never did like to perform. So I am, I don't think I'd ever pursue it that hard again. I pursued it when I needed money.

00:46:38.770 - 00:46:59.300

It was my main pursuit. Otherwise I just much prefer, you know, the backyard or the living room concert space with friends and, uh, people sharing their music, I think overall, you know, the Houston scene and everyone I met there and what we did together, um, it

00:46:59.310 - 00:47:22.090

was all about community in the end. So, can you, um, can you take a moment to kind of tell me about your own songwriting and perhaps like your songwriting process? Oh, dear. Well, it's, it's a, a nemesis for me. I either can write a song or

00:47:22.100 - 00:47:40.320

I can't. Uh, it usually tends to come out when I'm doing something totally different at the laundry mat or something. I'll, I'll have a song and have it finished within an hour that doesn't happen often. At all. Um, and I don't know how that happens or

00:47:40.330 - 00:47:59.840

where it comes from but any time I sit down to pursue an idea or write a song because I think I need one. Absolutely nothing. I don't think I'm as schooled as some of our other folks. But, but you have a, you, you have your own

00:47:59.850 - 00:48:17.620

unique way to do it and that's ok. Yeah. It just doesn't happen as often as I would need to really keep on recording and out there doing it, you know. Right. So, kind of, um, looking back on kind of the kind of short period, um, of

00:48:17.629 - 00:48:41.620

your life. Really? Um, in the, yeah, in Houston. Um, what kind of an impact did it end up having on your life? Oh, yeah. I'm tempted to say, you know, everything because, um, especially in the sixties in suburban, you know, Texas, especially if you're a minority

00:48:41.629 - 00:48:55.629

of any kind. And I, I was, um, a polio survivor which a lot of people feared, you know, of anybody that looked, uh, that looked like they might have had it. There were people that wouldn't let me play with their kids in restaurants that didn't want

00:48:55.639 - 00:49:11.219

me to come in and things like that. So that was the only me that I knew before I found out about the music and it started happening. I was just gonna live with my parents the rest of my life and, um, I don't know, get a

00:49:11.229 - 00:49:29.860

job being a telephone operator somewhere. I just didn't see a place for me and, uh, the whole music scene, most of the people I met there, um, they were broad minded people way ahead of their time in so many ways. There simply was no, no prejudice

00:49:29.870 - 00:49:49.479

of any kind. And, uh, people who understood that diversity is where it's at. I would have to say who welcomed me into the circle of musicians. And there was every kind of musician you can think of there. So it wasn't about what style you do or

00:49:49.489 - 00:50:11.139

whether you're part of the bluegrass world, this or that. Um, there was a welcome there for anybody who loved to play or who loved to listen as well. And that I think gave me that the feeling that I could go be whoever I wanted to be

00:50:11.379 - 00:50:26.649

and be ok in the world because even though I didn't like to perform, you know, you have to sit up there and say something to people when you're playing music and it, uh, it eased me into a place where I felt like, oh, you know, I

00:50:26.659 - 00:50:44.030

could have a job, I could have an apartment. I could go to other towns. I could do just like anyone else does. I don't have to listen to these folks. Yeah. You know that the naysayers. So, yeah, I'm not sure if I would have just ended

00:50:44.040 - 00:51:03.669

up being some lonely cat lady with a boring job. You know, if I had to run into John Carrick and dog Sanders, people like that. Ok. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for that and thank you. Um Thank you for letting me interview you. Oh,

00:51:03.679 - 00:51:07.820

my pleasure. I hope there's something, something new there.