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This is Polly Moore. Today is May 10th 1969. This is real seven side one footage 15 hole. This is interview number 20 interview number 21 Mr Carl Bayer Bay. Er uh Carl just so I could check this microphone. Could you uh read me your address and

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your your normal conversational tone? And let me see if the setting is gonna be. All right. 9210, the Houston Texas. All right, fine as a sort of um preparation for getting uh warmed up with this interview. Carl, I was giving you a bird's eye view of

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what uh we're interested in. Uh having you talk about just as a start for background material. Could you tell me how you reacted to the news that Kenneth Pitzer had resigned? Uh Well, I was I was sorry because I was beginning to see that although criticized

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by some uh he was a good man as president of Rice, things were things were beginning to get started. He was very, it seemed like the administration, whether it was his doing or uh people lower than he in the administrative structure uh were very receptive to,

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to students views. I think, uh, a legitimate case presented for practically anything would bring some action. So I was sorry to see him, but he also, he had quite a reputation as a, as a scientist and, uh, of course, this helped to rub off a little

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luster on the school too. I think, uh, he, he, uh, seemed, uh, like he could work with the board. Uh, he, I think the reason for his final, for his resignation besides uh wanting to return to his alma mater, I believe that uh he, he didn't

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really feel like he could uh support some of the ideas that seem to be whether they were or not being promoted by the board. So I think that could, that was my first reaction since that's been borne out a little bit. What kind of man did

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you want to, to replace him? Well, uh when, as far as uh having an academic person or an engineer or a scientist or a businessman, uh really, uh I didn't think that this was, was that important because I feel that uh be an academically or say

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a historian could be uh sufficiently aware of science to, to be present of Rice University also, the same for a, for a scientist could be uh oriented to the humanities also. Uh So I didn't, I didn't think this was necessary, of course, uh I was, I

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thought that a person with a, a reputation uh should be chosen but, but also through interviews, hopefully, uh someone who could be a real uh a leader that the students could associate with. Not uh not by say, calling him by his first name or something, but

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uh a, a dynamic personality uh as well as a good administrator. Uh I was hoping to get a real strong president this time. We Rice needs to have a strong president right now. Almost every university I imagine feels like they need a strong president, especially right

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now. Uh As far as academic credentials and uh business know how I didn't feel that the students could uh could lend anything to the committee. I think uh Professor Bronson, who was chairman of the committee. I, I have nothing but the highest respect for that man.

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I've only had one course under him, but he was very impressive and uh I thought that he could more than handle he and his committee could more than handle this end of it. I think the students were mainly and uh well, to pick a student leader,

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did uh you have any, any candidates in mind that you wanted to recommend or whose name you wanted to submit? Um No, not, not all because you see as a student. Uh I really wouldn't, I didn't think that I was qualified necessarily to uh I could,

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I could suggest maybe some names but they weren't uh they, they wouldn't be, let's say they would just be suggestions. I would have no, nothing of their background or their qualifications. I, I it would be more on uh examining research done on these men after they've

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been suggested by somebody in the over at Baker College. You were telling me before we began that uh you had uh volunteered to interview for a position on the student committee. What led you to do this? Uh I wa I was interested, I, I thought that

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this was a, an excellent chance. It seemed to me at the time that uh having student voice represented on the committee along with the faculty working with the board, it seemed like an ideal uh situation to uh well, communication is a big word that day. Of

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course. Uh I, I thought this was a, a great opportunity to, to bring the whole academic community closer together, choosing a president that everyone would enjoy, be satisfied with and uh feel like they'd had a voice in selecting and especially the current trend for students seeking

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voice and running students and faculty seeking voice and running the university. I thought this was uh it seemed to me at the time, uh an excellent move by the, by the Board of Governors and the uh including the faculty and then the faculty, including the students.

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Uh I thought this was a good chance. And II, I wanted to be part of the selection. I thought I, I felt like I could represent a good number of students what, uh what was your reaction? When did you have any other dealings with? Um um,

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the uh either the student committee or the faculty advisory committee. Uh Did you keep in communication with him or did things just sort of drop? Uh Well, I, as I told you before, Bob Parks is a good friend of mine. He was on this committee. So,

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uh I talked to Bob but, oh, I guess about, I don't know what it would average out to be occasionally, maybe once a week on how things were coming. Uh And I was also on the cabinet and Bob, uh the Baker College cabinet and Bob occasionally

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came and reported to the kid. Uh and at first he was very hopeful and then, uh later he seemed to be getting uh a little discouraged, you know, you could tell that uh things weren't working as well as they had looked like they would at first,

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did you, what, what, what did you attribute this at the time when he, uh, well, I was trying to shift the board members every chance in my mind, every bit of fairness. Uh The, the two canceled meetings. I tried to understand their position in, in canceling

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them later. It proved that it, it didn't really matter that uh someone was in the hospital, they could have a meeting in the hospital if they really wanted to. So I was pretty wrong here, but at least I was trying to give him a 13. Oh,

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that's ok. I can do. How, uh, how did you receive the news that the board had made a decision? Well, when I, I heard, first heard it, let's see, uh, I heard rumors later Thursday afternoon, I guess it was, and then Friday morning I heard rumors

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also and I thought that it was just rumors, you know, and then at lunchtime I heard, uh, I think I heard it over a radio station or somebody told me it killed, I believe it was a radio station in their little 2020 news spots. Uh, he

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had reported it and, uh I began to get worried. Then I, I really hadn't been, I, I just passed it off more as rumor at first because there had been rumors, you know, before. And, uh, in that afternoon, uh I had, I had, uh, something planned

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and didn't, didn't hear about the meeting until after, I guess it was almost, almost finished the student or the faculty meeting. But, uh, then became, uh, I really became concerned after I heard about the faculty meeting, you know, I, I didn't know who had attended the

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student meeting, who was, who were the students that were, you know, iii I didn't have enough information really. And, but then when I heard about the faculty and their resolutions, I became much, much more concerned. You didn't go to the four o'clock meeting at the physics.

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Uh Let's see, what I had maybe been in a lab or something. I don't, I don't remember. I just hadn't received word. Well, what, uh, uh, did you get this news then? Over at, uh, maker at dinner time? Most of the information I received early information.

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Uh, of course, I have had several friends that were at the meeting and they told me about it. I talked to some professor listening, who I talked to Doctor Ken Trail who is a Baker, resident faculty associate, uh, doctor. Uh, let's see, I guess he was

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all I talked to the first. Right. Right, immediately after the meeting, uh, after the py and, uh, I, of course, I begin hearing, uh, began getting more information and, uh, as I found out more exactly what had happened, uh, I don't know if it was anger

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but, uh, I became much more concerned, uh, by supper time, uh, several petitions. Uh, well, well, not, there was a fairly, I guess, mildly worded, uh, petition at first day, uh, which I helped circulate. I imagine that I got about just o probably over 100 names

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at Baker College at night, at dinner. And, uh, people were at first skeptical as I was at first. Uh, but then, uh, through, it was amazing, the people I asked before the dinner hour to sign this petition, uh, through dinner, I guess they heard and many

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people looked me up afterwards wanting to, wanting to voice their concern. I'm not sure. I have a copy of that, that uh petition. Do you uh have a copy of that you'd like to contribute to the archives? Uh If I do, I surely will. I don't

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think I do though. I'm pretty sure I turn them on. You would have submitted them to uh uh probably give it to Mike Berman or Bob Parks. I'm not sure when you say it was rather mildly worded. Was it uh was it similar to uh the

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faculty resolution or, or? Yes, yes. Uh Very uh let's see how uh I thought it was well worded for the time with not with having not having met Doctor Masterson, not having uh had heard every, not with everybody not having heard to teach in and all

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the information that was to later come in. I thought it was, it was well worded for the time. Uh It merely expressed concern uh over the method and uh avoided any mention of the man I talked a little about uh you know, the parent trust that

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had been violated. Uh Did it, did it suggest a reconsideration or was that phrase omitted? Uh I'm not sure rather than rather than give you the wrong information on so, after dinner, uh uh I think you all had a meeting over at Baker later on. Did

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you, did you go to that? Uh Yes. Uh This wasn't as well attended as some of the uh as some of the later meetings. Uh It was me, they told us, let's see that about to teach in next morning, uh is for volunteers to work on

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getting out information about the coat and the tie. And uh let's see, told the doctor Masterson will be there for a news conference told about the uh planned March. It was just merely pretty informative there. Uh As far as what was gonna be happening rather than

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trying to, uh, persuade action or anything people, I might add here, I thought the student leaders, especially Warren skin did a tremendous job throughout the whole thing. That's part of, uh, never really, well, of course, they didn't have to agitate because it was, uh, at least

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to the students and the faculty, it was pretty clear cut. You know, once you heard the information, there was, you know, the inevitable conclusion. At least that's the way it seemed to be. Mhm. Did, uh, at the bigger meeting Friday night? Uh, did you, uh, did

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you, did you speak? No. Uh, let's see, Mike, I believe, spoke, Mike usually conducted most of the, uh, say the news information, what had been happening. Bob spoke, I believe Charlie Myers, the two of you interviewed Charlie, I believe Charlie's book too. I believe that's all

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that spoke that night. Uh There were, we had other meetings there in the college too, in the cabinet, meet, uh, the kit. No. As a matter of fact, I think we called off on the, uh, we had a meeting, I believe it had been scheduled for

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it. We called it up and feel like we gonna have time. This was rather than a, a b, this was a university affair. We didn't see really need endorsing his baker college. You know, the, the action that we were trying to take. What are the, did

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you attend any other meetings that, uh, Friday evening? Uh, no, I didn't. Uh I talked with Bill Hames son, uh who was, he worked till wee hours at night. I don't know. Uh I didn't become as much involved, Friday. I became more involved Saturday. I mean,

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II, I went to the uh teaching which I thought was another example of the way how, how well the whole thing was handled. Uh Both sides were allowed to speak, both sides were presented and treated with respect and uh the boat was orally organized. Uh I

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helped count uh Bob Parks asked me to help count the uh this is the vote that you take one vote or two votes. No, let's see. We took, uh it's hard to remember now. I think we just took one improving both resolutions. 970 I think to,

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to not very many and uh March. Uh it was, well, the co and tie. It was very, it was very clever. I thought uh it was hard for any newspaper man to make a ride out of a bunch of students and coats and ties and, uh,

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everyone was united. It was very impressive. I thought, you know, the sds and the Rock team were marching side by side. Uh, and I think everyone was really, uh, was really proud to be attending Rice then. Uh, not much as far as news coverage to the

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outside world. Um, so we didn't get much. Uh, but I think if people in the United States, not just in Houston, but could have seen the adult and orderly and mature manner with which all the March and many other things were carried out. They would have

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had much more respect for uh for demonstrations, not just student but well organized uh nonviolent demonstrations. And I think uh some of the people throughout the United States, the kind, the people that are taking over the buildings, throwing bricks through windows and things would uh if

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this would have been publicized more after, uh they wouldn't, they have, they would have no argument for doing something. I mean, uh the faculty and the students here at Rice had showed that the patient's steady pressure uh without the riots, without the taking over buildings eventually

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achieved its goal. And I think it's a tremendous, a tremendous chance was missed here to, to show these the whole nation. I think what could happen. I think it was a more significant event in other words than it was later to, to appear national. Are there

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any of these, do any of the, uh, speeches of that? Uh T 10 Saturday morning, stand out in your mind as being especially impressive. Uh I remember, I don't exactly remember what Doctor Ward said, but I remember at the time that, uh his speech seemed to

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be, uh what, what exact, you know, what was really happening. Uh I remember questioning, uh I, I couldn't understand why Doctor Castaneda uh spoke for Doctor Masterson. Of course, I heard rumors, uh you know, that he thought that that was gonna be the winning side. But

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I, I couldn't, you know, that was a rumor. I couldn't criticize him for that. I, I did, I didn't know him that well, but at the time I thought that was uh it, it either took a lot of courage or I don't know why I did

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it but uh becoming a just being a new master of a college, uh and then to speak against the students, well, maybe not against the students who might have intended against the students, but to speak for what appeared to all the students to be wrong. Uh

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It was quite an active thing. What kind of reception did he get from the audience? He got, he got mild applause, I guess merely for respect to him as a teacher rather than uh uh there were no boos or I don't think uh people but you

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know, so a after some of the statements, you know, you could see people, uh, oh, my gosh. You know, and becoming restless and twisted in their chairs, you could tell they were discontent but nothing, nothing really bad. Uh, when you got, when, after you finished the

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Mars and got over to, uh, uh, Levitt, then what, uh, Doctor I saw, let's see, it was Doctor Gruber. And, uh, I'm not sure who the other man was, uh, had a very heated discussion. Uh, both of them just discussing the events in the, I had

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had Doctor Goer as a teacher and I knew him, uh, he'd been an associate, one of the most active associates b I ever had. And uh I enjoyed listening to him. Uh I heard Dean Piff talking with a girl from Brown. I can't remember her name

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at this time. Uh who really impressed me. I'd always, I'd like Dean Pfeiffer and uh his analysis of the situation I thought was correct. And uh he came out, I guess, as strong as he possibly could in the position he was in the administrative structure. Uh

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It was, I saw several of my other teachers there, uh talked to uh Doctor Freeman who's in the math department, a young man. I believe he's an associate of Jones or Brown one girls colleges who is, was very interested in. And uh it was interesting hearing

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the faculty, the version, it was uh it was quite inspiring to see the students and the faculty together completely. You know, working together. Has there been much of this uh this sentiment between uh uh faculty and students before it r uh the commu the faculty associate

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program at the colleges, I don't know what it's like in some of the other colleges, but at Baker, it's a, it's a very good program. We have them in incorporated in our, our mentor program, our freshman orientation program. And uh there's some associates of course, that

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aren't very active, but some come over to the college sometimes once a week and eat and are available for discussion and everybody enjoy and it's a great opportunity to get to know them better. But as far as working together on a project like this, I not

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to my knowledge because I was just a sophomore this year. How long did you have to wait over outside hub before Doctor Masterson came up? Uh I did uh if he would have come out uh right after we had finished marching down there. Uh I think

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she would have been quite shocked. There weren't as many, but there were still enough there to uh well, his first remark about uh he saw no opposition. It looked pretty silly. There was still enough people to make that look pretty silly. How do you account for

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that statement? I, I don't understand. I I to this day, I don't understand why he said that. Uh I think everybody was willing to give the man more than a fair break and uh he could have handled the situation well and might have ended up as

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president of Rice University. Uh But think nobody knew anything about the man. I don't think any of the students were against the man. Maybe some of the faculty were. Uh but through the course of the events, uh things he said and then things he didn't say

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and things he did and things he didn't do. Uh it kind of turned of many more of the students against uh the man in the current situation, Mr President of Rice. Could um could he have seen the sign? Do you recall where the sign was that

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the students had carried up on the march from the gym, faculty and students, you know, uh I think it was across the front, I believe. Uh so he had to see it. Oh, I, I think I, I can't remember now. I think there's a newspaper picture

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with the sign showing in across the phone. What was your personal reaction to Doctor Masterson during this? Uh Well, he did, did you go and come back and hear him or did you miss this? I, I heard some of his statements and uh he didn't speak

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very long. I, I don't remember how long it was but it wasn't very long. Uh Well, like I said, I tried to give the man an even break in my mind. Uh that first statement. Uh I don't know how that started me off wrong against him.

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Uh, later, he said, of course, that his first step would be to, well, I don't like anybody that says anything unequivocally. I, he said, I think I don't wanna misquoting, but he said he, he did not, he was not going to resign, you know, and, uh

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I don't like that. But, uh, also he said something to the effect of I will, my first step will be to restore communications and to do this, he promptly went back to Tennessee the next day, which was, which doesn't sit well with students at all, uh,

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and been refusing to meet. Well, he met with students but, uh, the meeting seemed to be going nowhere and, uh, his, his leaving Houston, I think was his greatest mistake other than accepting, uh, like Doctor Baker, Faculty Associate of, uh Baker College, uh said, uh, his,

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his greatest mistake. This isn't a quote. I mean, this is just a voice. It was not in, in the time today when, uh, students faculty desire so much of a voice, his greatest mistake was not inquiring is to how he had been selected. You know, this

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committee, I don't even know if he'd been informed that the committee existed or if it had been violated or what, what did you do after, uh, the meeting broke up on Saturday noon. Did, were you involved in any activities the rest of the day? Except for

00:28:44.520 - 00:29:01.790

the student association? And the college presidents, uh, as far as student activities there weren't, there weren't that many, they met a truce, I guess you might say was, was kind of called because they were meeting with Doctor Masterson. I think they really, so they thought something

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might be able to come out of it. What do you think they wanted to come out of it? Uh, I mean, they wanted him to resign. Yes. And then be reconsidered. Uh, I'm not sure. I can't, I can't say for sure. Uh, that's what I would

00:29:17.790 - 00:29:45.500

like to have seen. Uh, what, uh, that night, that night. In fact, I think I went to a show just to kinda get away from it all I did. I want to see funny girl. Uh, let's see. Then the next day, of course, I thought I

00:29:45.510 - 00:30:01.819

was under the impression he was gonna meet with students and then I woke up and found he'd gone back to Tennessee, which made me kinda mad. I found out about the, uh, the, the, uh, faculty meeting. Well, I don't, I don't know who all was involved

00:30:01.829 - 00:30:19.719

in the meeting that afternoon. There was a, uh, faculty student associated patient meeting. Uh I don't know who I was involved but the gist that came out of it was the letter from Warren Scarn and Dean Gordon about noting the pole the next day. And, uh

00:30:20.790 - 00:30:37.739

I thought this was a good step. Uh, it was the next logical step. I mean, another thing, Dean Gordon, I was also will always have respect for him, by the way. Uh, he came out in the whole whole issue, uh, as the fact that they came

00:30:37.750 - 00:30:56.939

out as strong as they possibly could, uh, that night was probably one of the best meetings I thought, uh, in Baker College and all the colleges around, I think it totaled 1600 students. All of them made it up. I think we had it done 300. I'm

00:30:56.949 - 00:31:17.000

not sure the total number in Baker, but there were several uh um faculty members there, Dean Gordon spoke and uh I don't know if it was a standing ovation, but he received a large ovation. Everybody was inspired to see Dean Gordon. Uh What points did he

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make about this time? Let's see. Had the, had the central issue changed any in your opinion? No, no. And really, it was just the idea of uh someone has hired the Chief Executive Officer of the University to see him United with us, I think was the

00:31:38.140 - 00:32:05.439

most inspiring thing and you know, his soft spoken manner. Uh but yet very sincere, he seemed very determined. Uh Doctor Bourne was there, Doctor uh Price Williams. Doctor Levy who's always an outspoken faculty associate, Baker doctor. Uh I think he's Kobayashi. Is there a Kobayashi? I'm

00:32:05.449 - 00:32:25.099

not sure. Uh I believe that was his name. Made a, a good uh a good speech too. He was uh it was interesting. He was a personal friend, I believe of Masterson's. Yet. He realized that the situation that the selection had been done well, it not

00:32:25.109 - 00:32:47.089

been due process, whatever tried expression they wanted to uh had not been carried out in good faith. And uh that was also an inspiring talk he gave briefly Doctor Baker, Don. Doctor Donald Baker was there and uh all of them spoke and it was interesting hearing

00:32:47.099 - 00:33:09.760

them discuss and then students discuss back with them. And uh it was very good. I thought, uh just the cross section of students was interesting again there. It's like, you know, the rosy, the SDS, the athlete the way the, and then the, I guess the in

00:33:09.770 - 00:33:24.729

betweens who are the Winnie? Are these a freshman or? Well, no, these are to an, to an athlete, a win is a non jock, a non ale but to a, to a non ale, I guess a win would be, oh, a bookworm is what you, you

00:33:24.739 - 00:33:42.760

know, someone who uses the, the college is merely a dormitory, you know, a place to eat and sleep. You never see him except for when it comes down to me to study the rest of the time. And that's what happened Sunday. And then, uh Monday. So

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before we get off on Monday, can I ask your reaction to the um, statement that the student association drew up? Uh, they changed it from, uh, uh, an issue over due process into one, saying that, uh, Masterson was unacceptable because of, yes, given the present situation,

00:34:02.800 - 00:34:21.729

I think was the words they used briefly on the ballot. I think, I think that was good because, uh, that's what the issue had changed into by then. Uh, uh, he had in the student's mind, he not acted rightly in the two, uh, in any way

00:34:21.739 - 00:34:44.270

that a college we, we felt the college president should have acted in, in the given situation. Well, I guess the, he just, uh, he had a chance to, uh, salvage it, I think. But, uh, as the day after Saturday and then Sunday, as the events progressed,

00:34:44.360 - 00:34:58.080

uh, it was hopelessly if he'd become president. I don't know what would have happened because of the, the backlash at first would have, I don't know what would have happened. Really? I don't know if it would have seen stay, uh, stayed nonviolent as much as I

00:34:58.090 - 00:35:16.620

would hate to have seen it go violent. It would have changed. I think the liberals into radicals, you know. Ok, you were about to say something before I interrupted you about the vote on Monday. Yes, Monday. Uh I thought this was handled real well. I, uh,

00:35:16.689 - 00:35:36.580

Bill Haines was the S A election chairman, I was the election chairman for Baker College. And so, uh I ran the polls and it was amazing in every college election before whenever I needed poll. Sitters, I just would have to really scrounge. But I just made

00:35:36.590 - 00:35:56.320

an announcement that Sunday night, that meeting, that I needed poll sitters and, uh, more than enough to run it every hour. And, uh, uh, they told me, you know, not to look at the ballots or anything. I think everybody knew how the election was really coming

00:35:56.330 - 00:36:14.739

out. But, uh, there were 22 votes. So you disapproved of the method and given the present situation. And we were supposed to emphasize that when we gave a B to the voter, given the present situation, you could not accept the man. And uh the first issue

00:36:14.750 - 00:36:34.649

was pretty clear cut before the election, I think. And, but during the election, we really didn't know how we heard uh rumors, some of the girls colleges love it. Uh We didn't know how they'd feel on the second question. Uh Then I sacked the balls up,

00:36:35.120 - 00:36:50.090

uh and never saw him again. Never heard a count, which I thought was very good. Uh I don't need know who counted and I don't know who knows the totals, you know, but it was kept, kept secret and that's the way it should have been. So

00:36:50.100 - 00:37:11.600

all balloting was done in the various colleges and uh in the cloister over here. Uh Right over here Anderson Cloister, I believe in the student center and had more turnout than I've ever seen for any election. It was. What percentage would you say? Voted in Baker?

00:37:11.610 - 00:37:45.570

Just as a gift. Oh, I'm sure it was 90%. I'm, I'm pretty sure. Uh, yeah, I feel that would be fair and I would say, uh, that probably biker of those 90% it was close to unanimous, I would imagine for both issues. Well, against both issues,

00:37:45.750 - 00:38:03.169

you know, I don't approve of the selection, given the situation I don't approve for me. Mhm. How close do you, anything else happened, uh, on this, uh, event on Monday? Uh, let's see, I called Doctor Bourne the night before who was the chairman of the double

00:38:03.209 - 00:38:23.659

E department. And, uh, he's a good Baker associate. He's my faculty advisor to, uh, ask him to come over for dinner and, uh, several of my friends and I enjoyed talking with him, you know, asking him questions about how the department should handle their votes and

00:38:23.669 - 00:38:41.449

what he thought the outcomes would be and things and then what he thought was the next step. And, uh, let's see, that was Monday. Uh, what was his opinion on these questions? I don't know if I should give that out if you want to interview him.

00:38:42.560 - 00:39:08.340

Uh, by that there was kind of a, at least with me Monday night there was kind of a depression. I mean, uh, it seemed like, uh, we were working real hard and there were no visible signs, you know, uh, I knew, I knew some, I knew

00:39:08.389 - 00:39:24.350

how it was one of the greatest things I think this was a tremendous educational process. I think, uh everybody that went through it uh was educated in many things. I think it was an important, maybe, maybe that should be a required course, a demonstration or something.

00:39:24.360 - 00:39:45.370

A cri critical issue should be a required course at every university. Uh But, well, I've seen the news coverage uh at first I think most people try to pass off the bad coverage as, you know, I just missing a few facts and then it became almost

00:39:45.379 - 00:40:02.199

like, uh, well, I can't say it was lying because I don't know that it was, but, uh, the facts were so twisted that it appeared such and then when there's 1100 students one day that demonstrating coats and ties and then all the quotes the next day

00:40:02.209 - 00:40:26.520

are given to someone who, uh, was completely against the whole thing. Didn't think students had any right to do anything. Uh, it was, it was pretty obvious this was bad coverage. Uh, the chronicle reporter, I thought, did a very, very good job in his position. Um,

00:40:28.419 - 00:40:41.830

and then the channel 11 I believe, ran an editorial that Monday night in channel two and it seemed like, you know, the whole outside world was against us, but just simply because I guess we were students and they were trying to lump this into the demonstration

00:40:41.840 - 00:41:00.889

and things like I talked about around the whole entire country and, uh, you could kind of see what could move these students to uh to taking over buildings and things, the frustration that could start building up. Uh And I never felt like we were actually making

00:41:01.159 - 00:41:18.909

demands. I don't believe the word we demand. I don't think that was ever used and I thought that was good because I don't go for coercion or use of power on either side. Uh So I say Monday was Monday night was kind of depressing for me.

00:41:19.459 - 00:41:38.550

Uh Tuesday, let's see. When was it announced Tuesday at five, I believe. Yeah, I, I've been over at the S A office that afternoon. Of course, we, you know, this is kind of a, a funny type crisis. Everybody still tried to go to class and things

00:41:38.560 - 00:41:57.449

and, uh but you could still do that and stay involved. Uh I went, so I went to class that morning. Uh that afternoon, it looked like, you know, I was really concerned about the newspaper coverage and, well, the media coverage in general and I had a,

00:41:57.760 - 00:42:12.879

I thought I had a contact at uh channel two, I guess. And then I, I knew a, uh a young reporter for the Houston Post who I thought would like the cause and would like the chance to write an article about it. And so I went

00:42:12.889 - 00:42:30.179

and talked to Bob Parks and asked him, you know what he thought, whether I could uh go say in the name of Rice University. Me personally and talked to this man and he said, well, you know, go ahead fine then. So I had planned, was planning

00:42:30.189 - 00:42:44.300

to meet him that night. And, uh, also they were put s A was putting out these information folders that you could send in your hometown paper, you know. Right. We cover letter and I was planning to do that. I went up there and got two. I

00:42:44.310 - 00:43:02.739

was gonna send one in Texas City where I live now and to Huntsville where I went to high school, uh, pretty conservative little town Huntsville. And I, I'm sure they had the wrong idea about the whole thing. Uh, and I went back to my room and

00:43:02.750 - 00:43:15.939

was just sitting down to write this letter, this cover letter to the editors of these two papers and, you know, stay tuned to KL for an important announcement. And I was just, I just thought it was gonna be something else and they read this taped letter

00:43:15.949 - 00:43:29.870

and I thought it was just gonna be a letter until the concluding statements, you know. And then, uh, I really couldn't believe it. I ran upstairs, got these three guys up there. They, they said they were gonna replay it. And about that time you started hearing

00:43:29.879 - 00:43:44.189

just yells from all around the campus. Uh, you know, people had heard it and after this played again, then all of a sudden all these firecrackers went off and these guys over at Lovett had put firecrackers and all the little uh lattice work there in their

00:43:44.199 - 00:44:01.320

college, we're setting them off. Everybody was, was real happy. And then, uh you know, childishly happy almost. And then they got to thinking, well, uh you know, this man is pretty well destroyed a great opportunity he had here and people got to respect the man. I

00:44:01.330 - 00:44:18.810

think a little bit more then, and they realized what he'd done and then they started realizing there were still a lot of problems left. This was, you know, and people got to thinking about the situation again and, uh at the basketball game that night, uh it

00:44:18.820 - 00:44:34.679

was really brought to a head, I think, you know, they announced that Doctor Ma didn't resign and that was met by a loud applause there at the basketball game, but not, not like, you know, we won kind of applause or just uh mature applause like, uh

00:44:34.810 - 00:44:51.360

the whole issue of being mature actions, I think by students then he read the telegram and which was also met with applause. And I think that also earned a lot of respect for the students, the earned a lot of respect from the board, I think for

00:44:51.370 - 00:45:09.310

one scaring and the way the thing was handled because I think it was a real good telegram that they sent to Doctor Masterson. And I, I think everybody was glad that things could still work out well for him. So Tuesday was pretty, pretty good day. I

00:45:09.320 - 00:45:26.120

think we beat Texas that night too. This is real b that right? You mentioned that uh you thought everybody had learned something from this uh experience. And one thing you mentioned following that statement was the uh the, the press coverage. What other things uh do you

00:45:26.129 - 00:45:53.949

think uh you learned from this experience? Uh We learned that uh the coercive use of power doesn't, it doesn't have to be uh we could, we saw that through peaceful non violent movement united with the faculty here. I think, I think that's what we have to

00:45:53.959 - 00:46:11.090

attribute to the success of the whole thing to was the support of the faculty. Uh They were tremendous throughout the whole event. And uh if they hadn't been in such strong support, I don't think anything would come of it. Uh Do you think that their support

00:46:11.100 - 00:46:32.360

was for the student position uh uh or vice versa? The faculty position? I think our support was for the, the university position. I think it was really a case of complete union on the uh we disagreed on, on minor things, but uh the overall thrust was,

00:46:32.370 - 00:46:56.209

was unified and that was what was, what was really great about it. Uh We also learned a lot about uh education and I don't mean just book kind of education. The uh and I still feel it is true. The uh the board members, the Houston community

00:46:56.219 - 00:47:13.840

are not educated in the sense that uh uh they don't really understand. I don't think they were, they lumped us into a category. Well, those students, man, this is a bad, you know. Right. All this other kind of stuff, uh whether we were right or wrong,

00:47:13.850 - 00:47:35.820

we were students and we were demonstrating that equaled wrong, you know. And uh I, I think we learned that fact that you used some and we learned that maybe uh the causes of, you know, it's not that the board wanted to hurt Rice University. We, I

00:47:35.830 - 00:47:56.780

think everybody realized that they really love Rice University, but that day and uh a lot of people today, a lot of the problems, not just the the student problem today are because uh this older generation is afraid, I think in a way and they were, they

00:47:56.790 - 00:48:22.949

were afraid, they didn't really understand, they thought we were having a riot here, I guess, you know, they were afraid that that's what we were doing and uh they were wrong there. Yes. Off the top of my head. That's about uh what I learn. What uh

00:48:22.959 - 00:48:40.199

what would you like to see happen now? Uh uh As far as Rice is concerned, what kind of university would you like to see it become? Well? Uh I think, I believe it was Doctor Ward that said, you know, the statement we, we can't remain poised

00:48:40.209 - 00:48:57.909

forever on the threshold of greatness I believe. And I feel that's true. Rice's at a real critical point, right? Now, uh with proper leadership, I think we need to get away from just having an acting president, you know, of not speaking either for or against doctor

00:48:57.939 - 00:49:14.540

man. But uh I think we need to have a president next year, uh or at least have chosen one sometime next year. Uh Are these committees still active? Uh Yes, they're kind of calling out calling the truce for the summer. I believe the board is supposed,

00:49:14.550 - 00:49:36.620

is not supposed to choose anybody. They're supposed to keep doing research during the summer. I believe, Bob to uh as far is rice. Uh Another thing that came out now, I think it's something else out of this. I really became convinced of the university's power that

00:49:36.629 - 00:50:00.949

they, that they don't realize they have maybe as a, as a social force as a really controlling society for the years to come. Uh As far as this all boils down to education again, we saw what people who, you know, uneducated, they, what, what c what

00:50:00.959 - 00:50:22.149

people not being educated on issues and things could cause. So, uh I think that I hope at least that the university will go more towards educating the person totally. Uh the theory and everything that I get in engineering is fine. But uh uh learning how to

00:50:22.159 - 00:50:42.209

live, learning how to organize things like that are gonna be important too. And uh higher values make, making just making keeping people open minded and willing to accept a lot of information and try to assimilate all this information and then make a judgment rather than uh

00:50:43.199 - 00:51:04.330

oh bigotry. You know, things like that are, are examples of people being closed minded, not willing to be educated. You mentioned a while ago uh Carl that um uh that there were uh all sides of the political spectrum uh united on this one issue. The SDS,

00:51:04.340 - 00:51:30.060

the Campus Radicals, the ROTC, the uh um which, which one of these groups would you characterize yourself as being most at home with? I would say, uh, moderately liberal, probably just more to the liberal side of the middle of the road than either. Uh, some people

00:51:30.070 - 00:51:51.610

may take me as more conservative than I am. I, I would imagine. I don't know. Uh, but I think anyone who really knows me would say that. Uh, but what I've learned at Rice, uh, coming from a small East Texas town like Huntsville, you know, um,

00:51:51.620 - 00:52:06.949

I was close minded. That's why I can speak about open minded. I think, uh, I was pretty close minded as far, you know, if the sds said anything was wrong. Well, I've learned that that's not true that, uh, a lot of what they're saying is important

00:52:07.280 - 00:52:24.020

but it's just that the volume is turned up so loud. Nobody can really understand, uh, and that their methods aren't quite right and, but, uh, they do have a lot of important things to say and they at least if anything, they make you come across with

00:52:24.030 - 00:52:49.040

ideas and reasons why you support the position you do. And that's important. Uh, as far as the conservatives, uh, go, my roommate is a, one of my roommates is a football player and, uh, he's very conservative, uh, but he, he marched right along with everybody else.

00:52:49.489 - 00:53:11.340

But, uh, in contrast on this Charlie Freeman issue recently, uh, since the SDS was doing most of the leadership in that, well, a lot of the leadership he was against it completely, just simply because of that. And, uh, so I can't really put myself in either

00:53:11.350 - 00:53:30.510

an sds or ultra conservative category when you use the word conservative, for instance, saying that your roommate is, uh, is, uh, uh, certainly conservative. What kind of other qualities does this suggest to you? Uh, maybe I don't mean conservative in the political definition that say William

00:53:30.520 - 00:53:59.879

Buckley would be considered conservative. Uh, maybe, I mean, more the George Walsh is conservative. Uh, the, uh, um, and looking more toward the pragmatic approach to life if, you know, it's gotta work or it's not, you know, even, you know, an ideal. Not many, I, there

00:53:59.889 - 00:54:29.729

might, uh, be, not, be many ideals. Uh, everything has to work in life. It has to be practical, you know, that's, that's kind of what I mean. Mhm. And not, not willing, not wanting to, uh, to touch anything controversial. Not one discuss it. Uh, it, it

00:54:29.739 - 00:54:46.489

breeds it makes for a sterile atmosphere. I think it rise. I mean, uh used to, I wouldn't have wanted to, you know, this black theater business and all that. I wouldn't have wanted to, to see it or allocate money for it or anything. But uh I

00:54:46.500 - 00:55:02.429

see now that that's a wrong idea. I mean, uh if you can see something and understand uh what they're saying, then you can criticize it, but until then you can't criticize it until you make an effort to understand what the other side is talking about. You

00:55:02.439 - 00:55:16.810

can't criticize it because I don't think so. What is this black theater? Oh, I, I just threw that in because we had quite a controversy. Baker College on the c that they wanted uh $25 I think. No, this was a Gorilla Street theater, I believe it's

00:55:16.820 - 00:55:33.320

called, it's kind of a spontaneous theater that just springs up anywhere and they wanted $25 for it. $25 in a very big sum with our $14,000 budget or whatever we had, we appropriated that we had a referendum on it which takes two thirds of the college

00:55:33.330 - 00:55:50.179

members signature to call a referendum which is a good number of signatures. 200 signatures probably. Um I think it takes two thirds. I can't remember the exact figure now. Uh or maybe a third, maybe two thirds to pass it. Uh It failed. I mean, we did

00:55:50.189 - 00:56:18.020

appropriate the money but, uh, this is what I mean, these people rather than, uh then say this or, you know, just shut it out. And, uh, it's like a lot of, a lot of, I won't name religion. Uh East Texas churches, I guess not. I don't

00:56:18.030 - 00:56:34.639

wanna brand East Texas. They want to find people and then, uh, you know, this is wrong, period. You know, this is just wrong. Don't do it. So if you exposure yourself to even expose yourself to it, it's bound to. If you can, if you can, if

00:56:34.649 - 00:56:59.639

you can reason with yourself and conclude that something's wrong, I think you have a lot more, stronger belief, more, stronger, more strong faith. Uh Then if you just take something as a an axiom or as a, yeah, an accident, that's the best word Carl. I certainly

00:56:59.649 - 00:57:12.050

appreciate you coming in on a Saturday afternoon, a beautiful day like this towards the end of school. I know that there are other things you uh would enjoy doing before we close. Is there anything else you'd like to um add uh in, in summary of uh

00:57:12.060 - 00:57:53.100

this whole experience? Well, um I think uh I think a lot can be uh learn maybe from uh do you today? Do you any time? I imagine, I, they're a lot more open minded and more receptive to ideas and to change the experimentation. Uh I hope

00:57:53.110 - 00:58:16.449

people can. I ceased it to lump anybody in a category. He's a student, you know, or he's got long hair, he's bad, you know. Uh, or he's black, he's black or anything like that. Uh, people, the expression, you know, that, that youth has is uptight. I

00:58:16.459 - 00:58:37.169

think that's a good word. It replaces a lot of, uh, psychological jargon, you know, in terms that people don't understand. Uh, I think people are too uptight today about a lot of, about the race problem. I think flip Wilson's attitude, uh, is very good. He's, uh,

00:58:37.870 - 00:59:00.090

he realizes it's a problem but he can joke about it and, uh, kind of brings the race together, I think a little bit more. Um, that's good. Mhm. Well, again, thanks very much for coming in time is now 217.