00:00:05.910 - 00:00:27.200

Okay, high today is thursday august 20th 2020. I am Katie Weber project archivist with the Houston, jewish history archive and I am here today interviewing Julia Mazo, how are you doing Julia? I'm fine thank you. Okay. Um so we're here today to talk about you and

00:00:27.200 - 00:00:53.160

your life and your writing and editing um but I wanted to start and have you told me a little bit about your family background and how your family came to Houston? Okay. Um well I'm a native houstonian and um I am a third generation houstonian actually

00:00:53.170 - 00:01:17.620

and my great grandfather was a rabbi who came to Houston in 18 50 for and his name was Zachariah emmick, he was uh he had come from Germany to Ohio and somehow ended up in Houston, he was uh being hired as a rabbi by Temple Beth

00:01:17.620 - 00:01:38.520

Israel and he was at that time, I mean they all were at that time Orthodox jews and of course Beth Israel changed all of that after a while, but my great grandfather, he was not only an Orthodox rabbi, but he was a mohel, he did circumcisions

00:01:38.520 - 00:02:01.170

etcetera and um I never knew him of course I wish I had known him because I understand he was, he he was quite a guy and a great sense of humor, love to talk to people, all that kind of thing. Anyway, um so he was at

00:02:01.170 - 00:02:28.780

Beth Israel, I'm not sure for just how long he was there but um my um I remember his daughter, my grandmother um and I remember her very well in fact and my mother, oddly enough, my parents, although they always belonged to Temple Beth Israel, which became

00:02:28.790 - 00:02:52.610

what they called Classical Reform, um my parents also belong to congregation Beth Fisher, in which of course is conservative and I'm sure that at that time my parents may have been the only members of Beth Israel who kept kosher at that time, they were ardent zionists,

00:02:52.620 - 00:03:16.050

this of course was before the state of Israel was established and there weren't very many people like that. And what I always found to be really odd was that I'm sure you're familiar with the Pittsburgh platform, the basic principles of Judaism, which everybody at Beth Israel

00:03:16.050 - 00:03:34.910

was supposed to sign and my parents never signed it and I once said to my mother who was um she didn't do anything she didn't want to do, but she said, I said, you know, didn't anybody ask you why you didn't sign? And she said no,

00:03:34.920 - 00:03:53.770

and I said, well why not? And she said, because I was Rabbi Mx granddaughter and they weren't gonna, what were they gonna do, kicked me out. Meanwhile, my parents always had a membership at Beth Beth Israel until my mother died. She stalked religious, she taught religious

00:03:53.770 - 00:04:17.390

school there and she loved every bit of it. Um she was uh she was friends with the different Rabbis there, she knew them, they knew her and although she was certainly not of the ultra Reform ilk that most of them were anyway, that's kind of um

00:04:17.400 - 00:04:48.470

and and then as I got older, stop me if I'm if I'm going too fast for this. But I uh I really became, I became very much interested in young Judaea and uh zionism for younger people. Um and I felt somehow I felt really valued there,

00:04:48.470 - 00:05:09.220

which I did not feel among other people of my age and um had a wonderful time. It basically saved my life in a sense when I was a, when I was a teenager and um I enjoyed it a lot. They sent me out of town, I

00:05:09.220 - 00:05:26.850

got elected to various offices and I even one time they sent me to new york for some kind of a conference and I remember it was the first time I had ever been on an airplane. It was very exciting to me. Also very scary to me.

00:05:26.860 - 00:05:52.510

But anyway, uh and then as I grew older, I remained a uh basically a conservative jew. And when I married, the person I married was, well, he's got, he had even a more interesting background than mine. He grew up in a Yiddish speaking family, very left

00:05:52.510 - 00:06:17.520

wing and um his, his whole family were they read and wrote Yiddish spoke it all the time. Um and they had something they had a lot to do with the fact that I ended up doing that as well. But um when we were married, my husband

00:06:17.520 - 00:06:41.390

was, he was not all that eager to um two shall we say, get connected with a synagogue, but I said, well why don't we belong to Betty Suren and Beth Israel. So we did until my mother one day said, why are you all belonging to two

00:06:41.390 - 00:06:56.670

synagogues? You can't afford that. And we said, well, we thought we were doing it to please you and she said, I don't really care. So after that we just belong to Beth You Sharon. And and to this day I continue to have that affiliation and it

00:06:56.670 - 00:07:20.070

means a great deal to me, wonderful um going back a little bit. I so I understand the family connection, but I wanted to ask uh if you know why your family continued to be members of Beth Israel even as the basic principle debate, let's say what's

00:07:20.070 - 00:07:46.370

happening and if they were such ardent zionists. Uh huh. So I don't, I'm not sure I understand your question, it's um why your just fully become members of another synagogue, like many did when Beth Israel, they did not go over to to Emmanuel. No, they Emmanuel

00:07:46.370 - 00:08:11.990

was going to be uh a a reform congregation. And I I think that my parents, at least this was mostly my mother's family who had they had become very much uh you know, they became presidents of the congregation, various things like that. And so Temple Emanuel

00:08:11.990 - 00:08:35.580

was just to them, the reason that they, my parents did not go over that. The main reason was, was that at that time, uh there was this organization, the american council for Judaism, which was very, very, you could call it right wing and did not favor

00:08:35.580 - 00:08:53.040

the state of Israel, which had not yet been established because their thing was how could you be a, a citizen of the United States and a citizen of the state of Israel? This was due a loyal loyalty, blah, blah, blah. And my parents just thought that

00:08:53.040 - 00:09:10.270

was a lot of bullshit and they were not, you know, they, although they, you know, we, to this day we all have, you know, we have many, many friends from Emanuel particularly right, you know, my husband and I always have and my parents did too, but

00:09:10.270 - 00:09:35.350

it never occurred to them to uh, to join uh Emmanuel for for those reasons, this, this thing about the dual loyalty, it's hard to believe, but I even remember, I have a vague memory of meetings in our house and people yelling at each other about, you

00:09:35.350 - 00:09:52.200

know, how can you do this? How can you do that? You know, America has been so great to us. Well sure it has been. But what happened of course is I'm sure, you know, is once the, the state of Israel was established, everybody jumped on the

00:09:52.200 - 00:10:13.500

bandwagon and Beth Israel no less than anybody else. So um, and you know, in Beth Israel, you know, to this day, they sponsored trips to Israel and all this. And I remember one time just to show you how things had changed one friday night, I was

00:10:13.510 - 00:10:33.360

at services and my sister was there and in the reception afterwards there were these teenagers singing Israeli songs and doing dances and my sister and I looked at each other and said, can you believe this, that would not have happened in I forget what every year.

00:10:33.360 - 00:10:54.010

So you know, things did change. Yes, definitely. Well thank you. Um I wanted to ask if we can, if you tell me a little bit about other parts of your life growing up in Houston, like where your family lived, what neighborhoods and uh where you went

00:10:54.010 - 00:11:17.150

to school, things like that. Yeah, I um I went to uh po elementary school. We lived in an area that now is known as Southampton, although it was not as fancy as it was now as it is now on the street called Vassar. And um well

00:11:17.150 - 00:11:33.110

I'm not sure that this would be relevant, but one of my most vivid memories or there were not very many jews in that neighborhood, but I and I used to walk to school every morning with this. I mean we were about eight or nine years old,

00:11:33.120 - 00:11:51.790

we used to walk all the way from where we lived to up north and south boulevard to post school. And so at that time, uh I was very afraid of dogs. And so we're walking past these big beautiful houses on north boulevard and there was this

00:11:51.800 - 00:12:13.460

enormous dog sitting on the lawn of one of the houses. And I said to my little friend, I said actually I am afraid of dogs. And she said to me, I remember this so vividly, she said well what you can do is if you say out

00:12:13.460 - 00:12:29.480

loud, jesus saves me, the dog will not bother you. And I'm thinking to myself good grief if I said something like that, my mother who was three miles away, she would hear me and she would go down to the school board and it would be a

00:12:29.480 - 00:12:50.190

mess. So what I did was um I figured out what I could do was I could say it in my head and somehow dog would hear me and I did say it in my head and the dog did not bother me and I got got to

00:12:50.190 - 00:13:15.140

school without any any bad things happening. But it was um at that school I was one of at that time two or three jewish kids. And then after that I went to what was then known as um Sidney Lanier Junior High and I may have mentioned

00:13:15.140 - 00:13:38.150

this before, but anyway, I do remember when I was in the seventh grade, I was in a civics class class and the day before, young kid, poor the civics teacher said would everybody who's gonna be absent tomorrow, please stand up and I was such a jerk

00:13:38.150 - 00:13:56.550

and I was so afraid to do anything different, I stood up like a fool and I think about that now and you know, I think why didn't I do something about that? But I was 12 years old, I wanted to be like everybody else and it

00:13:56.550 - 00:14:18.690

was already, I was beginning to hear glimmers of conversation from my non jewish friends and they were all non jews in that school, you know, they would see me, they would, they would use expressions like, oh maybe she'll want to do them down and then they

00:14:18.690 - 00:14:47.560

say, oh excuse us, Julius, something like, I mean something really dumb and I was, I never, my mother was particularly very um, a very strong person and she was a good friend of somebody on the school board, a jewish ophthalmologist, dr ray daily and um I

00:14:47.560 - 00:15:05.040

was afraid that my mother, if, if I told her any of those things, my mother would go down to the school board and cause a big stink and then nobody would like me anymore. So I, I was, I was not exactly a rugged individual at that

00:15:05.040 - 00:15:28.250

time anyway, so, um, trying to remember what, what question I'm answering now. I mean you were telling me about where you grew up and went to school and Oh yeah, okay, but what really saved my life when I was in senior high school, I went to

00:15:28.250 - 00:15:45.790

SAn Jacinto and it was there was an option of going to either san Jacinto or Lamar in terms of where I lived but I decided to go to SAn Jacinto because um if I had stayed where I was, I would have been the only jew and

00:15:45.790 - 00:16:04.670

I really, I was sick and tired of being the only jew, I mean I didn't know what to do anyway, but about that I did go to san Justino, which by the way people referred to as Sanju sento and um what really saved my life when

00:16:04.670 - 00:16:19.790

I was in high school was joining young Judaea, which was really, they were the ones where I, you know, I got to be kind of a big shot and they were the ones that I talked about before, you know, they sent me on trips and all

00:16:19.790 - 00:16:39.960

that kind of thing and um anyway, it was, it was, it was a very good thing and the other thing was in high school um this is really funny because I can't believe I did some of these things because I believe it or not, I've always

00:16:39.960 - 00:17:00.980

been very shy, although I haven't showed up yet, but but I um I got very involved with the speech department, I was just started out taking a speech course there and the speech teacher sort of, I don't know, she kind of took me under her wing

00:17:00.990 - 00:17:15.760

and she would send me these speech tournaments and really and truly I was scared to death most of the time but you know she said okay Julia get up there and talk and do your thing and I would do it and you know I would, I

00:17:15.760 - 00:17:34.810

would win these things. I mean I don't know why I did, but you know I would just, I still remember Miss ruby Parks, she was just wonderful and we kept up that relationship for many years after that but that but it was young Judaea and the

00:17:34.810 - 00:17:55.550

speech department were the two things that really in a sense saved my life. And another reason that was those were good things for me was that my parents were very overprotective particularly with me and um but it was you know if it was one of those

00:17:55.550 - 00:18:13.680

two things like with school and with young Judaea, it was okay, I could do whatever I wanted to then are you from Houston? I'm not from Houston now, where are you from? I'm from Kansas but I came to go to rice. Ah well my mother went

00:18:13.680 - 00:18:34.330

to rice also that rice is a big school of my family, although my mother unfortunately graduated from rice in 1933 which where you couldn't get very many jobs but um and my husband went there. My sister went there. Um and I once asked my mother, I

00:18:34.330 - 00:18:52.340

said how did you happen to choose rice? She said because it was free and we didn't have any money. That's the reason that's the same reason my husband went there and I was accepted at rice. However I had a grandmother who um I didn't want to

00:18:52.340 - 00:19:08.590

go to Rice because I wanted to get as far away from Houston as I possibly could. So my grandmother, one of my grandmothers said that she would take care of at least my first year. So I ended up going to BRANDEIS which is in waltham massachusetts

00:19:08.600 - 00:19:29.050

and you can't get much further away from Houston than that. But I loved it. It was a whole other ballgame. Anyway, that's great. Um So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit then about how before we start to talk about your work

00:19:29.060 - 00:19:49.170

um about how you met your husband and how you know about him and also about kind of how you came back to Houston. Well um What can I tell you what can I tell you? He died about a year and a half ago and we were

00:19:49.170 - 00:20:08.330

married for 57 years. And the way I met him was at that time I had stayed in Boston after graduating from BRANDEIS and I had a job there and all that. And so it turned out I wasn't living in Houston but it turned out that an

00:20:08.330 - 00:20:30.760

aunt of mine played cards with his mother And he was 13 years older than I. And so one day the conversation apparently went like this, my mother in law said well I have this wonderful son, he's the doctor, but he thinks he's too good for everybody.

00:20:30.770 - 00:20:52.340

And so my aunt said well I have this niece and she thinks she's too good for everybody too. So they got us together the next time I came home from boston um and at that time actually I was planning, I can't believe this, I was planning,

00:20:52.340 - 00:21:09.350

I was I had quit my job in boston, I was gonna go to England for a month in France for a month and to Israel forever. And at that time the Eichmann trial was going on and I had a friend who was working there and she

00:21:09.350 - 00:21:22.940

said listen come to Israel and I'll get you a job and you can support yourself and all that. So that's what I was gonna do. So I told Jack when he said let's why don't we get married, I said no we can't because I have to

00:21:22.940 - 00:21:39.870

do this another thing and he said, he said do you know what it's like in Israel now, because this was in 1960 or so, He said it's very hard there, he said, he said I've been there and because he had family there still has family there

00:21:39.880 - 00:21:53.950

and he said it's very very difficult there, he said, he said well go to Israel, well go to Israel all you want to, he said, but you don't want to go now, he said it's really a mess that people work hard and it's very all kinds

00:21:53.950 - 00:22:17.590

of stuff going on. So I really didn't know what to do and so meanwhile um I did have a ticket a on the queen mary to go from new york to England and I had just and when I met him was when I had just come

00:22:17.590 - 00:22:35.880

home briefly to see my parents and that was when I met him, I mean we didn't really know each other very long, I know everybody thought I was pregnant, which I definitely was not, but it was kind of funny and so but I went back to

00:22:35.880 - 00:22:52.520

new york because I was gonna get on the queen mary and go sailing off and um when he had said he had said why don't we get married? And I said no I've got to do this other thing. And anyhow, once I got back to new

00:22:52.520 - 00:23:06.370

york and I was telling some of my women friends about this they said oh he sounds like he's such a good guy, why don't you marry him? And I said I've only known him like five or six days and they said but he sounds like a

00:23:06.370 - 00:23:23.470

good person, I said well he is so meanwhile I called him up on the phone and I'll never forget this, I said um I said you know that matter, we were discussing, he says yeah and I said maybe we wanted to discuss that some more and

00:23:23.470 - 00:23:37.470

he said okay and I said why don't you come up to new york? He said well that would be very difficult because I just got back from a vacation in Mexico and I don't know if I can get away again. So I said I said well

00:23:37.480 - 00:23:52.090

you know if that's the way it is, that's the way it is, don't worry about it. And he said well wait just a minute. So to make a long story short, he came up to new york and it was in the winter and my friends all

00:23:52.090 - 00:24:14.270

met him and they just everybody just fell in love with him. And uh the weather was very bad. So there wasn't very much we could do besides walk up and down the street and go to restaurants. And um and then finally one day when we were

00:24:14.270 - 00:24:32.320

walking back and forth he said so have you changed your mind yet? And I said, all I could think of was I said well you know I've never liked doctors very much. And he said something like well thanks a lot. And I said well you know

00:24:32.330 - 00:24:47.830

you know doctors can be very difficult. He said yeah, I know. And I said I never want to have to work in your office. He said and I'll never forget. He said well you don't have to do anything to help me with my practice but please

00:24:47.830 - 00:25:03.510

don't don't do anything to hurt it. And I said oh I wouldn't, so we decided this was, so the next day we, I said, what am I going to do about this ticket to England? That I, I, I've been eating, you write these wafers for a

00:25:03.510 - 00:25:19.950

year and here's this ticket. What am I going to do? And I said, I said, I would be very hard for me to turn this in. He said, well I will. So we walked into this uh, thomas cook steamship office and he says, we'd like to

00:25:19.950 - 00:25:39.100

get a refund. And the guy says sure. And he said, oh, this is for tomorrow. And Jack said, yeah, it is, you know, like big deal anyway, to make a long story short, I did get the refund sooner or later and we did decided to get

00:25:39.100 - 00:26:02.680

married. That was in february. We got married in uh, in March. And uh, anyway, um, he was just words cannot express, he was just such a, I mean, everybody after he died, I mean, I'm still getting letters from people that he did wonderful things for that.

00:26:02.680 - 00:26:24.830

I, I never, I never knew anything about. Um, he was very, not just a doctor, but he played the violin, which he continued to play until about a month before he died. And he, he loved languages. He believed me. He adored rice. He absolutely loved it.

00:26:24.840 - 00:26:45.110

And one of the things and, and he had, and, and I went and, and then after he retired, which he did when he was, he was about 80 years old, he went back to Rice and he audited some classes in, in philosophy. And he said, because

00:26:45.120 - 00:27:01.860

if he had to do it over again, he said, he, he said he loved philosophy and, and the professors when he, at one point he tried to drop one of the classes, they said no, we want you to stay here because it shows our students that

00:27:01.860 - 00:27:20.900

philosophy isn't just something that you take for credit. And he loved it and he just, um, he loved the whole thing. I mean, he took calculus classes. He was the smartest person I've ever known. But he really, he was really interested in this stuff. And um,

00:27:20.910 - 00:27:40.220

anyway, um, he, you know, he loved music. He looked art when we would, when we would travel, which we eventually did a great deal of, um, we go to a museum and I would be finished at the museum after an hour or so. He would be

00:27:40.220 - 00:28:01.430

there for several hours just having the time of his life. And um, he also, he started doing some oil painting on his own. Um, He had, he said, he had time for it And meanwhile we, we did have three Children and he would like to have

00:28:01.430 - 00:28:22.580

had four. But I said, I don't think so, three is enough. But um, he loved being a father and he loved, you know, doing fun things with the kids and, and with me, I mean lots of times I he was he was a lot more fun

00:28:22.580 - 00:28:38.620

than I was, but he taught me how to have fun and he taught me, I mean we used to laugh about all kinds of things and I just um was it was really just interesting and I learned a lot about a certain kind of family life

00:28:38.620 - 00:29:00.700

that he had grown up in. And that also meant a great deal to me as well. So, anyhow, and I it is wonderful and I can't tell you how much I miss him. He was um He lived to be 93, but he was one of those

00:29:00.700 - 00:29:20.300

people, you, I mean people would say he's 93, he acts like he's 43. Well he did, but you know, and he we used to, and I only wish he he had wanted to do a lot of things that I was too big of a jerk to

00:29:20.300 - 00:29:37.170

wanted, like I was afraid to travel too much when my Children were young and he would say we can get somebody to travel with to stay with the kids, tell me, okay, I wish now we had just done everything he wanted to. And anyway, anyway, he

00:29:38.180 - 00:30:02.120

he was a great guy. So wonderful. Thank you for sharing all. What did you say his name was? I'm sorry Jack. Jack, Jack. The initial B as in Boy Mais O. M. A Z. O. W. And he was um he was an internist by training and

00:30:02.120 - 00:30:20.360

then after we had been married for a while he decided he wanted to um get some extra training and become an immunologist and allergist. So we went and lived in buffalo new york for two years and I again I had not wanted to do this and

00:30:20.360 - 00:30:40.450

he said oh it'll be an adventure. And it was, we lived very close to Niagara Falls and we made a lot of friends and um, he, as a matter of fact, he, he he got a lot of awards for being for being a good doctor and

00:30:40.450 - 00:30:58.490

a good guy. And one of them, somebody now when I hear people talk about this dr Fauci they said, well have you ever heard of him? And I say I don't know him, but I know the organization because that organization gave my husband an award for

00:30:58.490 - 00:31:21.090

being the best something right there, best, best allergy, allergist and immunologist around. And um, but he um, with all of that, I'm not just saying this now, but he um, you know, when I would say, you know, how would you do things different lately? And one

00:31:21.090 - 00:31:36.880

of his ways was he said, I go back to rice and I major in philosophy and I said, but didn't you like biology? He said I love that, he said, but you can always do biology. He said this is this is the difference. Anyway. Um and

00:31:36.880 - 00:31:59.300

he, you know, he remembered, remember there were a couple of professors in those days, everybody used to walk to school apparently and he'd walk down Main Street with uh a doctor son off who taught, I forget what and a german professor and he said they used

00:31:59.310 - 00:32:19.590

whenever they would see any of those students walking by, they would tell us wait up, we'll walk with you and it was just a different kind of thing. Did you like rice? I did like rice, are you still there? Um I mean the archives are technically

00:32:19.600 - 00:32:42.010

at Rice, but I'm not a student anymore. Okay, so thank you for sharing all that. I wanted to shift now and talk some about your work and I wanted to know if we could start by telling me about how you got into writing and publishing. Okay,

00:32:42.020 - 00:33:01.900

well, um I had wanted to be a writer from the time, I was about eight years old, I didn't really know what this meant, except that I knew that whenever we had to write something in school, I would always get good grades on it. Um and

00:33:01.910 - 00:33:22.880

but I didn't know what it really meant to quote unquote, be a writer. And um I remember my father who was from Pittsburgh had gone to a high school at which Willie Catherine was one of the teachers and I said who was Willie Cather and he

00:33:22.880 - 00:33:45.950

said, you don't know who Will Catherine was, you know, he told me she was this very, very great writer of an american literature anyhow. And so um when I went to BRANDEIS I majored, I majored in english, as a lot of people did particularly young women

00:33:45.950 - 00:34:06.500

did and when I graduated I knew that I wanted to stay in boston. So I also knew that I had to get a job and in boston there are several publishing companies and I did not know what in the world you did if you work for

00:34:06.500 - 00:34:26.350

a publisher. So I walked down Beacon Street in boston and I saw a sign that said well there were two publishing companies that I walked by, one was Houghton Mifflin and the other was Little Brown to make a long story short. I walked into the one

00:34:26.360 - 00:34:48.430

that was Little Brown and um I told this, they they asked me did I did I know how to take shorthand, well I didn't and I said well I don't know shorthand, I said, but I can take verbatim notes. And I found that later, they thought

00:34:48.430 - 00:35:07.890

that was pretty hilarious. And to make a long story short, I was hired by the chief copy editor at Little Brown and I learned a huge amount of copy editing. I didn't even know it existed as a profession or something you could do. And you know

00:35:07.890 - 00:35:25.720

there were all these really famous writers who whose work was published by Little Brown. And believe me, I did not make very much money, in fact I made precious little, but it was it was a wonderful thing and it made it possible for me to stay

00:35:25.720 - 00:35:41.310

in boston. So I was doing that and when, and then when I decided I was gonna do this, going into Israel thing, I remember thinking, you know, I could, I could write a book about that, I didn't know what it meant to write a book about

00:35:41.310 - 00:36:12.820

anything anyway, so there was, and um when I eventually came back to Houston after, after the scent in buffalo, um I really, I had, I think I had one child and then I had another one and I was just bored out of my head and I

00:36:12.820 - 00:36:32.190

read a whole lot just, I mean I read constantly, that was all I did and and so I thought maybe I should just take a class at the University of Houston because I said, you know, I was a pretty good student when I was at BRANDEIS,

00:36:32.190 - 00:36:54.860

so anyhow, so I started taking graduate courses and I started getting very good grades in them and um I thought well maybe I could, maybe I could teach people how to do this, I didn't know what that meant, I never took an education class in my

00:36:54.860 - 00:37:16.380

life, ever, ever, ever, although I did eventually end up um uh being in charge of like 20 THS and just having the time of my life doing that. And so, and I would, you know, I would I would think about that a whole lot, what can

00:37:16.380 - 00:37:44.710

I do with that? And then about that time, this all ties in with my interest in famine being do it. Um I learned, oh, when I was teaching, when I was teaching, maybe it was and they always get really, really good classes. Um you know, sophomore

00:37:44.710 - 00:37:57.660

level classes. It was and it was it was really a lot of fun and I would think, I can't believe I'm getting paid for this. That was my problem when I really liked something, I can't believe they're paying for this. And my husband would say, don't

00:37:57.660 - 00:38:24.060

say that, so anybody can hear you, but we said we would laugh. But anyway, um there was and um I found out that there was a jewish feminist publication called lilith And this was this was in the late 70s, early 80s, and I thought I never

00:38:24.060 - 00:38:43.950

heard about that before, that sounds really interesting. And then I thought, you know, I'm really interested in um jewish women who wrote, because I'm jewish and I figured that would be a way to start. And so I can't believe I did this. But in those days

00:38:43.950 - 00:39:01.600

there was no computer. So I wrote a letter to the editors of Willis magazine who did not know me from a Hole in the Wall. And I just said, you know, I'm really interested in jewish american women writers and oh, the other thing was I would

00:39:01.600 - 00:39:23.550

look at these collections, anthologies of jewish writers And there might be 2020 writers representative represented and maybe two of them were women. And I would think that is just a lot of horseshit. I mean, how can they do that? Does that mean that no women wrote?

00:39:23.560 - 00:39:39.420

Well, of course, it does not mean that at all. And I got involved in this and I wrote to the women from lilith and they sent me back this this long, long leather about all the possibilities. And I said, you know, I'm thinking I might do

00:39:39.430 - 00:40:05.280

I might put together a an anthology of jewish women writers. Um because with definitely a what I would want to show is that when women write about themselves, it's a very different ballgame than when men are writing about them. And they said, oh yeah, that would

00:40:05.280 - 00:40:27.480

be a very good idea. So they were very, very encouraging to me. And then after that I started um I started to uh teach jewish women writers insofar as I was able to do, that couldn't always do that. Of course, I mean, I just couldn't, I

00:40:27.480 - 00:40:50.170

mean, I could do it, but I couldn't always get permission or whatever it was anyhow. And so then one fine day, I get a letter from a woman in Toronto who had been given my name by somebody who said that I was the good reader and

00:40:50.170 - 00:41:17.850

a good writer and blah blah blah. And this woman had turned out was starting a she was starting an online publication called jewish Fiction dot net. And um anyway, so this woman said would you like to help with this? You could be a manuscript reviewer. So

00:41:17.850 - 00:41:35.730

to make a long story short, what she does is I mean, I'm not the only reviewer that she has, but she will send me copies of short stories that people have sent in, you know, and I don't know the names of the names are not on

00:41:35.730 - 00:41:52.330

it, they could be men, they could be women. And and then I would read read the articles, read the stories and I mean, I would rather be reading fiction than doing most things in the world. And so we would um and I would write up a

00:41:52.330 - 00:42:12.400

little, you know, have a page or so about each one and whether I recommend it or whether I don't recommend it. And so I would be I would be reading those and I would think I did I did want to do some at the same time,

00:42:12.400 - 00:42:34.270

I kind of was getting more involved with Yiddish and wanting to translate some of the women who wrote in Yiddish because most people who do know about Yiddish writers only think of male writers, they don't think any women did write in Yiddish, but that's not true.

00:42:34.280 - 00:42:57.470

So I figured my mission is going to be to um a way of finding my own voice would be to help other people find theirs. Meanwhile, so along with all of that, I just I started writing I guess what you would call personal essays. And um

00:42:57.480 - 00:43:23.380

I got some um encouragement along those lines and although I did write some fiction, I felt that this was really my forte. And so that's what I've done plus um I you know, I'm still, I'm working for this um public jewish fiction dot net and the

00:43:23.950 - 00:43:45.490

the publisher she she sends me she sends me manuscripts and you know, and again, I don't know who who has written them. Um and uh and then I just tell her what I think and again it's it's um it's a lot of fun. I love doing

00:43:45.490 - 00:44:09.740

it. I love I love reading what other people have written. And also it gives me ideas for things that I could write. And then you never know what's gonna happen here. I am reading living in this place of assisted living. And there's something here called a

00:44:09.740 - 00:44:28.960

Journal Club. So I thought well hell I'll sign up for that. And all of a sudden I find myself writing again and you know, they would give us a prompt and I mean I mean this, I would not want anybody to know that I'm saying this,

00:44:28.960 - 00:44:50.310

but I'm awfully good. And uh and in fact the inspector said one day she said she said you know whenever you read something you've written, I always want to cry. So I figure I'm doing something right. But anyway it is this is this kind of helping

00:44:50.310 - 00:45:11.680

what? It's wonderful. Yes. So I I want to talk about a little bit more about your interest in Yiddish women's writing and how you started learning to be able to do that. But I also want to ask about Laura Z Hobson and your work on her

00:45:11.680 - 00:45:28.910

and how that started, so whichever you want to do first. Yeah, well I'll tell you the way Laura Z. Hobson, I mean I had heard of a Gentleman's Agreement Which is one of her, I think 11 novels, that was the only one I've ever heard of.

00:45:28.920 - 00:45:53.040

And so but one day, as I said, you know, I just love to read, I also love to read biographies and autobiographies. So somehow or other I got hold of Volume one of her autobiography and it absolutely blew me away. It was absolutely wonderful. She was

00:45:53.040 - 00:46:20.240

brilliant. Um I was just and she was very, very productive and only enough. It's amazing the way things kind of come together sometime. Her parents had been born in Poland and Russia, I forget anyway and they had come to the United States and her father, it

00:46:20.240 - 00:46:43.960

turned out was one of the early editors of the forwards, the The Forward, which was in uh Yiddish at that time. Anyway. Um I thought that was really odd because she herself was very secular. I found out later on, and after reading her autobiography. So then

00:46:43.970 - 00:47:03.030

um I started reading her fiction in her novels and at that time it was very hard for me to find her novels in Houston. There was one used book store and I bought up all of her all of her books from there that I could, I

00:47:03.030 - 00:47:21.490

mean at that time they, you know, they weren't they didn't have amazon or used books or anything like that. Um So what I did was I taught a class that I was teaching at the U. Of H. I remember this vividly was called from lilith to

00:47:21.490 - 00:47:46.000

Lara's E. And I mean people actually took this class and I had the time of my life teaching it. And so one fine day, um but I knew nothing about her, but Jack and I were going to new york for something or other and I figured

00:47:46.000 - 00:48:03.420

well Laura Z Hobson lives in new york, you know, maybe maybe I should just call her up or something. I can't believe I did this, I mean I'm telling you how shy I am, I don't know how I managed to do this stuff. So I wrote

00:48:03.420 - 00:48:19.760

her a letter because of that in those days, that's what you did. And I and I told her I'm teaching this class called from lilith to RZ well, to make a long story short, she answered me by return mail, she loved the name of that class

00:48:19.770 - 00:48:36.410

and she said you mean you're from texas and you're coming all the way here. And so I told her when I was going to be in new york and she said, well okay, call me when you get here and we'll arrange something. So I did. And

00:48:36.420 - 00:48:51.440

I remember I called her a day after I had said I was gonna call her and she said I thought you were gonna call me yesterday, what have you been doing? And I said, well, I don't know, I was just getting settled anyhow. So she gave

00:48:51.440 - 00:49:13.990

me her address and I told her, I said, I said I just, I would just consider it a real privilege to get to speak to her. And this was I realized very, very uh thrilling to her I guess. Anyway, so she left, she gave me, oh,

00:49:13.990 - 00:49:32.770

mean, believe me, she had given me her private phone number and had made me promise I would not give that to anybody else upon pain of death. And then she told me where she lived on Park Avenue, you know one of these fancy buildings with with

00:49:33.460 - 00:49:53.240

Bellman or somebody in front anyhow. And so I got there and she said now you understand, I only have about 30 or 40 minutes and I said fine, you just tell me when it's enough to make a long story short. She didn't tell me that till

00:49:53.240 - 00:50:14.270

I had been there for two hours and we had a wonderful discussion and um she uh you know she she had this really interesting apartment with you know, beautiful furnishings and things and I remember she had she had a circular desk with that was kind of

00:50:14.270 - 00:50:40.460

made out of red leather. It was I've never seen anything quite like that since but she it was very exciting and at that time She was I think she was 85 years old. So meanwhile I go back to Houston. Oh and by then I had this

00:50:40.470 - 00:51:00.930

an anthology that I had put together and I sent her a copy of it and I never heard from her and then one morning I'll never forget. It was a sunday morning and I had the tv on, it was um this guy Charles carroll on cbs,

00:51:00.940 - 00:51:23.710

he announced that Lars E Hobson had died and I was I can't tell you I was absolutely devastated. And that was uh you know I ended up writing an article about my experiences with her. Um I think I might have given it to josh I think.

00:51:25.080 - 00:51:45.020

Yeah. Have you seen, Yeah. Huh. Yeah and um I just uh you know it was that was an important kind of lesson for me because I didn't at that point I didn't think I was really worth anything and you know why would anybody possibly answer a

00:51:45.020 - 00:52:02.880

letter from me and she didn't know at all, oh and she kept saying and I can't believe her from texas, and you came all the way here, and I realized she thought I'd come just just to meet her. So I let her think. But anyway, she

00:52:02.890 - 00:52:32.400

um it was it was it was really a very good experience, and at one time I thought that um I thought I was gonna look into the possibility of writing a biography of her. But then I realized she she herself wrote a two volume autobiography, and

00:52:33.560 - 00:52:54.290

there was really not a whole lot else to say. I mean, what she said in those books was amazing. I mean, she had this really interesting, fascinating, fascinating life. Um anyway, so that's me and Lars, e I just I just adored her, and when I think

00:52:54.290 - 00:53:19.280

about how close I came to not writing to her, and uh, you know, because, you know, why would she answer me? You never know. So, that's so wonderful, thank you for sharing all that. And so, I wanted to ask you next about your work in Yiddish.

00:53:19.290 - 00:53:44.520

So, you talked a little bit about, like, how women authors are so underrepresented in Yiddish authors, um and these anthologies and stuff, but I wanted to ask, you know, how you started to learn Yiddish, all of that kind of thing. Well, it started like this, I

00:53:44.530 - 00:54:08.080

mean, I didn't have any Yiddish background whatsoever. And one day I was involved at the JCC with the book and Arts fair, and for that event, I was at a dinner party somewhere? And there was this man who was the editor who was who who really

00:54:08.080 - 00:54:25.280

had started the National Yiddish Book Center and he somehow knew something about the anthology that I had done. And he said, listen, that was really interesting, he said, but now what you have to do is you have to do something about the women who wrote in

00:54:25.280 - 00:54:43.380

Yiddish, I'll never forget this, I said, but I don't know Yiddish, and he said, and you're not dead yet, are you? So I thought, well, you know what, maybe I can do something like this? And I remember I did say something to Jack, I said, do

00:54:43.380 - 00:54:59.480

you think at my age, because I was then I was 50 and I said, you know, I can't, I'm too old to learn Yiddish. And he said, no, why would you be, you know, and he he said, I'm not too old to learn my philosophy and

00:54:59.480 - 00:55:19.840

he would tell me all this stuff and say, okay, I'll give it a try. Anyway, so I began to, I found out who was the best lay Yiddish teacher in Houston. Susan Gantz, who I think is is on one of these interviews, she's quite one, she

00:55:19.840 - 00:55:40.060

now lives in florida, but she was a wonderful teacher. And then I decided, okay, I started asking, you know, well let's say I could go anywhere in the world, where would be the best place to go. So I was told Oxford Oxford in England where the

00:55:40.060 - 00:55:58.000

jews were expelled from years ago. I mean now Oxford University, I said oh yeah, sure you can. So I went I spent a summer in Oxford at the time of my life, really learned a whole lot and um I have to brag a little bit because

00:55:58.000 - 00:56:15.750

at the end of the, at the end of the summer they gave awards for different things and I was in the I was in the beginner's class and my best friend there and I got these awards for for being whatever I forget what it was for

00:56:15.760 - 00:56:38.230

anyway, so that felt pretty good. And so then I came back to Houston and I was teaching, continuing to teach at the University of Houston and then um outside the University of Houston I taught some women's studies courses, so that was good. And then I thought

00:56:38.240 - 00:57:02.510

um where else could I go? Well where else was in new york? So I spent the next three summers in new york city studying Yiddish again, had the time of my life. And it was, I mean Jack would say don't you want me to go with

00:57:02.510 - 00:57:22.400

you? And I would say well no, I don't think so. And he said what about for Oxford? And I said not Oxford, definitely not, but the fact was although I loved being in Oxford just the environment was fabulous I really honestly learned a lot more in

00:57:22.400 - 00:57:36.400

the program I was in, in new york city and so at the end of each of those three summers, Jack would come up, but he would help me pack up all my stuff and then we would do expensive time in new york city, you know, just

00:57:36.400 - 00:58:01.740

going to shows and museums and things like that. And then um I um came back to Houston and um I realized, I did not feel that I knew enough to actually teach Yiddish myself and I still don't, I mean maybe I could, I'm not sure, but

00:58:01.740 - 00:58:27.310

anyway, what I could do was I could, I could bring Yiddish for the women who wrote in Yiddish, I could train, I could have them be taught in english, I could do that. So the jewish community center was the perfect forum for me and for maybe

00:58:27.320 - 00:58:44.350

they had any teaching there maybe for like six or seven years and I called the class, I always called it. Who are the women who wrote in Yiddish and why don't we know their names and I would always use that name and they would say, but

00:58:44.350 - 00:59:04.990

you taught this before and I say you don't understand, I could be teaching a class like this for years and not teach the same people more than once because, and I felt that I was and I was in fact really um bringing, bringing these, these women

00:59:04.990 - 00:59:33.260

writers to the forefront and um anyhow, I'm every now and then I I go through a period where I think you know, I think you know, somehow or other I need to be doing something else. However um I could I could be doing this work forever

00:59:33.260 - 01:00:00.190

and ever and I still wouldn't run out of stuff but and also I I felt that um you know by then I've or since then I've gotten very much involved in um feminism, jewish feminism and uh in fact my my anthology was the first such thing

01:00:00.190 - 01:00:19.610

that was written that was put together from a jewish feminist point of view. And and and actually I'm very proud of that because it had not been done before. And the the editor the publisher of of lilith when she would come to Houston, we would always

01:00:19.620 - 01:00:39.830

walk down the street and go to some of some of these stores that would sell cards and things like that. Having to do with jewish american princesses. And we all made it a it was it was something any time we heard anybody say the word Jack,

01:00:39.840 - 01:00:59.460

we would just, we were just really get after them and we we would go into card stores and if we saw a card that said something about jewish american princesses and Japs should say Julia let's just buy all of these. So we buy all of them

01:00:59.470 - 01:01:18.490

and then we would stand there outside the store and we tear them up and throw them away. She said, this is this is the way you deal with these things, okay, we'll do it. But I really um I I really felt very good about this. And

01:01:18.500 - 01:01:37.380

and then again, this is this is definitely bragging. One time I was at a the bar mitzvah of a friend of mine, an adult bar mitzvah at our synagogue and she was giving a speech and I was kind of halfway listening and all of a sudden

01:01:37.380 - 01:01:53.460

she was she was thanking everybody for helping her. And she said, and I want to thank Julia Mazo for teaching me about the women who lost their names and all this kind of thing. And I just thought, God, that that was really nice. I mean, that's

01:01:53.460 - 01:02:13.440

that's worth a whole lot. So I felt as if I had accomplished something anyway, so, but every now and then, you know, I think, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of quit this. And every and then I end up, I end up in this assisted living

01:02:13.440 - 01:02:36.820

place. And it's as if, I mean, there are people here who um I mean, they're they're extremely intelligent and everybody of course has a story I firmly believe, but at the same time, it's it's just different and it's, in a sense, you have to start all

01:02:36.820 - 01:02:58.740

over and and someone has even said to me, wouldn't you like to teach feminist literature here, and honestly, I would like to do it. However, you know, I don't, I have to ask myself, do I want to work that fucking hard. I just, I mean it

01:02:58.750 - 01:03:16.560

is, there's a there's a lot of preparation question and um you know, I did one thing I did do it. I'm also in addition to the Journal Club, I'm in this book club. So one of the books that, I mean, I really rammed it through down

01:03:16.560 - 01:03:33.770

anybody's throat. I said if you have not read Gentleman's Agreement, that's really an important book. So that gave me a chance to talk about Lars E. Hobson, I mean, and I just talked to about an hour and a half time, but they were they were very

01:03:33.770 - 01:03:54.070

appreciative. So I felt as if, you know, I did something with that. Um anyway, I'm sorry, I just keep, I feel like I'm just chatting exactly what it's supposed to be, you know? Yeah. Um I wanted to ask some more about this, the jewish feminism. I

01:03:54.070 - 01:04:14.890

wondered if you could tell me about the jewish feminist conferences that you were involved. Yes, indeed, because I was the person that came up with the article with the idea for it. Okay, yeah, okay, so at that time I was involved with this organization, the american

01:04:14.890 - 01:04:29.440

jewish committee and there was a women's issues committee and you know, one day I was just sitting around, I was thinking this is just kind of a waste of time and then I thought what would I want to come to? What I wouldn't want to come

01:04:29.440 - 01:04:53.380

to is a jewish feminist conference and we would call it texas first jewish feminist conference, which it was, we had two of them. And um we, I was the chair and I did get this friend Sandy Block to be the co chair. And I remember sitting

01:04:53.380 - 01:05:18.950

around um sitting around my dining room table and we would just name people women from all over the country who had done interesting things in jewish literature, jewish feminism, jewish history, whatever. And we would invite, we would invite three well known people to come and speak

01:05:18.960 - 01:05:40.100

in Yiddish, I mean in Houston and then we would also open it up. We would say if you have a paper that you would like to contribute to this, let us know. And so we would get all kinds of things there. I mean it's really interesting.

01:05:40.110 - 01:06:02.520

Um some flashing forward a few years later, I started um and I did this for about seven or eight years, a lilith salon where we would have a subject and I would get the people together and invite people anyhow. And one time we were, oh and

01:06:02.520 - 01:06:24.940

at that time also there was and there still is a very good creative writing department at the University of Houston. And so um several, several people involved in that were friends and several of them were jewish anyhow. So We're sitting around my living room one day

01:06:30.240 - 01:07:03.510

and I blacks L. A X. She wrote this book, she's oh her name is leah lax L A X. Anyway, so she was at this group, this little thing. So we're sitting there and somebody said something about texas first jewish him and his conference and she

01:07:03.510 - 01:07:21.850

said oh my gosh, I was there and that's where I got the, got the uh the impetus to do da da da da da. And she wrote this wonderful book called um uncovered. Is it uncovered or covered? I can never remember, but it's won a lot,

01:07:21.860 - 01:07:39.390

a lot of awards, it's her memoir and I believe she's she's written another thing since then. And just as an aside, I was talking to her one day and she said something about playing the cello and I said really? I said my husband plays the violin

01:07:39.390 - 01:08:01.400

and she said could we play together sometime and I said sure. So she came over and she and Jack played and then after he died um uh my my daughter said that she thought that at all lee would be a very good person too and and

01:08:01.400 - 01:08:18.190

that Jack would love it if he knew that she was getting his sheet music. So um but anyhow she she's a very fine person, but but there she is sitting at that in that meeting of the willow thing, she's oh my God, but anyhow we ended

01:08:18.190 - 01:08:41.950

up having it would be like a day and a half of papers on various subjects, definitely with, with a feminist swing to them, so to speak. And they were all very, very good. Um, we had, we would get a certain amount of money from this american

01:08:41.950 - 01:08:58.150

jewish committee, they gave us a little bit of money, we could pay some of the speakers. Um, and that was uh, you know, that was really helpful and we did that, we did that one year and then skipped a year, then the next year we were

01:08:58.150 - 01:09:16.680

gonna do it again and we did it again. However, after that, um, to tell you the truth, I didn't, I was not really so eager to put this all together once again and um, you know, I think sometimes maybe I should have done that, but but

01:09:16.680 - 01:09:36.030

really, internally, I feel as if I had done that, I mean it's time for somebody else to, but I really, I putting together texas, jewish feminist conference when people would hear about it, they'd say, are you kidding texas has jewish feminist or feminist. I said you

01:09:36.030 - 01:10:00.900

would be surprised really, but we would always have a wonderful time and you know, really, you know, some neat people were involved in it and just could not could not have been a better experience. And and it gave people the opportunity who had not done anything

01:10:00.910 - 01:10:23.270

out in the open like this before, but to realize you can call yourself a jewish feminist or even a feminist and you know, the roof will not fall in. So yes, I can definitely see how people would be surprised that there, I mean, I think that

01:10:23.270 - 01:10:45.700

part of our work is people there are surprised that there are jews in texas more. What did you, what did you major in at Rice? I majored in Women's Studies and Religion. Did you happen to know a um professor Chandler Davidson who was a sociology professor?

01:10:45.710 - 01:11:05.760

Yeah. Anyway, just curious anyway, but I didn't realize there was a jewish women's studies program there. Well, I will tell you something that might be of interest. As I said, my mother went to rice and she used to show me her yearbook and in the yearbook

01:11:05.770 - 01:11:25.510

by the pictures of the women, it would always say such and such a literary club. And I said, what literary club were you in? And she would say women jewish women were not invited to join. It was and then she explained that in those days, you

01:11:25.510 - 01:11:48.690

know, there was nobody of any color whatsoever and very, very few jews were there. And I was kind of surprised. But I know for some years Rice had a real um, I mean we didn't have black students until the sixties and then jewish students even if

01:11:48.690 - 01:12:13.580

they were there were very discriminated against and had problems completing sometimes because of that of course is um, but yes, thank you for sharing all of that. Um, so I wanted to wind down a little bit and just ask you because we're doing this when we

01:12:13.580 - 01:12:38.670

are. I wanted to ask about Covid, which is still ongoing and where you're living now and how you've been able to keep in touch with others, you know, since everything is started. Well, I'll tell you. Um I think I took a year, a week ago. They

01:12:38.670 - 01:13:06.080

tested everybody who lives here, including the village of Meyer Land on North Grays would, yes. And I'm not even sure how many people are there, I think maybe 75 or 80 something. And um, they tested the residents and also the staff people. And I think there

01:13:06.080 - 01:13:31.520

was one resident who tested positive, but it turned out to be a false positive, which I guess can happen. And anyway, but how but more important. Um it is a very lonely kind of thing and I, fortunately I have wonderful wonderful friends, absolutely wonderful friends and

01:13:31.530 - 01:13:55.730

um but be and but you know right now we can't get out and it used until last week, you would have to eat three meals a day in your apartment. Now it's just um breakfast and then one day a week you can go to the dining

01:13:55.730 - 01:14:22.030

room or something, but they have everything, you know. Yeah. To tell you the truth. Um I spend a lot of time reading, I study Yiddish, fortunately, I mean I'll never run out of that. Um and I uh my Children live all over the place in san

01:14:22.030 - 01:14:44.180

Diego and in Virginia and in Ohio and um so I you know I'm not I'm not really in close contact with my own family, I have a sister here but you know she's kind of cut off also. Um I do not I did drive until I

01:14:44.180 - 01:15:12.450

started having some accidents and my my Children who are they're lovely but they're very bossy. They said you really gotta quit this so I'm not driving and I miss driving although right now I couldn't drive anyway but anyway it's it's difficult it's um you know sometimes

01:15:12.450 - 01:15:30.050

I think oh I do find what one of the things that I spend a lot of time doing is uh watching movies, amazon, prime, netflix etcetera. You know some of them good sometimes some of them not so good, a lot of them not so good but

01:15:30.910 - 01:15:48.500

you know but it's it's interesting and you know especially since you can't get out and go to a regular and go to a movie in a in a real place. Um And I and I do I'm watching more watching more tv than I ever did in

01:15:48.500 - 01:16:15.740

my entire life but and I listen to music um And uh yeah I spend a lot of time going through papers which is kind of a ridiculous thing to spend time on because yeah there's no end to that but but really I would say reading reading

01:16:15.750 - 01:16:35.550

listening to music and um getting being in touch with with my friends. Um there you know people, if people if somebody does not hear from me for a week or so I hear from them and you know just wanting to know are you still there kind

01:16:35.550 - 01:16:58.030

of thing? Um and and this in this place the village of my Ireland is uh it's a very nice place and I feel I feel fortunate that I can be here and um for about a year before my husband died, he was here also in the

01:16:58.030 - 01:17:16.050

memory care unit because he had dementia. Um but not as bad as many people do and when I showed him my apartment he was really he said this is very nice, he said but where's the oven And I said no more of it, afraid not that's

01:17:16.050 - 01:17:45.280

gone and but so I would you know I was able to see him as often as as we wanted to and um anyway, any Hamlets, what can I say? What can I say? I've I did go with um my daughter and I went to Richmond Virginia

01:17:45.290 - 01:18:12.120

in february, early february. Um one of my sons is curator of American art at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts and he um he had put together a show of the work of Edward hopper and so we um went to see that and that was kind

01:18:12.120 - 01:18:33.190

of fun but I haven't seen my daughter since then. I haven't seen the others either. But well, thank you for sharing all that. I'm it is hard and I'm glad that we were able to talk, but I just want to say thank you so much for

01:18:33.190 - 01:18:54.950

spending all this time talking to me today and it was going to hear about your life and your story and preserve some of this jewish feminism in texas story, because it's here definitely is. Here, definitely is here. Thank you so much, Katie. I really appreciate it.