00:00:04.000 - 00:00:16.880

Okay, we're recording. Good morning, Judy. My name is [laughs]. My name is Sam, and today is August 4, and we'll be doing your oral history interview for the Houston Asian American Archive.

00:00:19.100 - 00:00:33.170

Firstly, could I just get a brief introduction about yourself, like name, profession maybe, and so on? Okay, sure. So my name is Judy Lee. And I was born here in Houston in

00:00:33.990 - 00:00:49.380

1956—and so that's a long time ago—and the community was very different. My dad is Chinese, but my mother is not. She's a mixture of German, Hungarian, Greek, Italian...

00:00:50.430 - 00:01:02.230

We just did a DNA thing. So we just found all this out. Because we used to tell people, "Oh, yeah, she's German." But she's actually a lot more complicated. And I grew up in Houston, saw a lot of

00:01:02.230 - 00:01:17.070

changes. I think the population was probably, when I was born was like, in the, under 500,000s. So now it's over four or five millions. So it's, you know, seen a lot, a lot of changes in especially with the

00:01:17.110 - 00:01:30.210

the Chinese community. Yes, the community I'm most familiar with, it's just really grown. It used to be for probably the first 20 years of my life. If I saw another Chinese person, I pretty much knew them, [SL:Oh wow.] or knew their

00:01:30.210 - 00:01:43.310

family. Yeah. And then all that just really changed a lot. So it's now it's very rare, very rare. If we go into a Chinese restaurant that's full of Chinese people, like, I won't

00:01:43.310 - 00:01:51.300

know anybody, you know. Or if I do, it's like, "oh, my gosh!" you know. [SL:Yeah.] So I went to school here, started off

00:01:51.460 - 00:02:04.580

in–in elementary school, was a Catholic. My mom was Catholic. So I went to Catholic school for elementary, and then switched over to public school, and graduated high school, went to a small Catholic

00:02:05.800 - 00:02:20.420

University called the University of St. Thomas, which is very close to Rice in the Montrose area. And then after that, I went to law school at the University of Houston Law Center. And after I graduated, I really did not know what I wanted to do.

00:02:20.500 - 00:02:34.280

I kind of fell into oil and gas for almost two years. And it was incredibly boring, very transactional. And then my parents had a business. They had a printing and office supply business.

00:02:34.920 - 00:02:50.180

Earlier in my life, they had a grocery business, but they changed to printing and office products, and they needed a lot of help. And I was just like, you know, I'm going to quit my law career and work with the family business, right?

00:02:50.260 - 00:03:05.160

Not what I was expecting to do, but I wanted to have a family, and I figured that would also be a lot more family friendly environment. So I did that for about 10 years. And then they sold the business.

00:03:05.370 - 00:03:20.220

And I was looking again, what should I do? It was like fresh new start, like just getting out of school. And I started interviewing people about what they did and how they liked it. I thought maybe I'll go into teaching.

00:03:21.450 - 00:03:38.170

"Oh, no, I don't think I can handle, handle that." [Laughs]. And one of the people I spoke to was Gordon Quan. And he was working as an immigration attorney and had his own law firm. And he said, "You should come and work.

00:03:39.050 - 00:03:53.800

And you don't even have to work as an attorney just just work as a legal assistant to see if you even like it." And I really, really enjoyed it. And I ended up being in the immigration law field for over 30 years. [ SL:Wow.] So I retired.

00:03:53.920 - 00:04:07.750

I retired two and a half years ago, and just been having a really nice retirement—other than COVID. [ SL:Oh yeah.] So was that enough detail? [ SL:Oh yeah!] Yeah, that was [unintelligible] my life story.

00:04:07.750 - 00:04:22.270

Yeah yeah yeah, that was more than enough. We will just like, go throughout the interview and kind of delve back into little parts of that in more detail, but that was an excellent introduction. Thank you, Judy. [ JL: Good.] Yeah, kind of back tracking to like your early life,

00:04:22.480 - 00:04:32.970

kind of mentioned you were born and raised in Houston. You went to school here. [ JL: Yeah.] How would you describe like the household and neighborhood that you grew up in?

00:04:33.690 - 00:04:50.580

Yeah. So early on, my parents had a grocery store. And we actually lived above the store. So there were living quarters, eeping quarters, I should say for the most part above, but then the kitchen in the living room were behind the store on the first

00:04:50.580 - 00:05:04.120

floor. It was a little store called Gene’s Food Market, and it's gone now. [laughs]. It's been taken over by—it was on Leeland Avenue. I think it was 3404 Leeland.

00:05:04.630 - 00:05:22.130

And it was right across the street from a big dairy—Oak Farms Dairy, and they ended up buying that property. And I think they've got their milk trucks or their–their offices are over there now. But the times I remember in the grocery store were–were

00:05:22.130 - 00:05:37.470

pretty, still bright, in my mind. I remember a lot about those times, because it was actually a very idyllic childhood in a lot of ways. We had the whole run of the grocery store, and we didn't really have, you

00:05:37.470 - 00:05:51.480

know, TV, computer games or anything like that. So we spent a lot of time creatively. I remember playing in cardboard boxes a lot. And [laughs] I remember my parents letting us have knives and box

00:05:51.580 - 00:06:02.350

cutters to, you know, take a big box and make you know, windows and doors and things like that. Now think back, what were they thinking? [ laughs] We also were put to work.

00:06:02.670 - 00:06:18.830

I mean, I remember running the cash register by the time I was nine or so. [ SL: Wow.] And, you know, having an apron put on and dusting the shelves at like five or six years old [ SL: Wow.] stocking, things like that. But, you know, we didn't know any better.

00:06:18.830 - 00:06:36.070

We didn't know we were like forced child labor. [Laughs]. We have had to do, we had a meat market. And I remember, you know, working in the meat market. And one of the first tasks that was easy for a child was they would have

00:06:36.070 - 00:06:51.660

a big cardboard box of sausages. And our job was to cut them two at a time, so they can be sold in pairs. [ SL: Wow.] And then using the meat icer to ice up lunch meat and cheese, and waiting on customers.

00:06:52.480 - 00:07:09.160

And you know, just really, you know, I think there's a lot of stories like that with kids who grew up in the grocery store. Very similar, because I've got a lot of friends who had the same experience. And yeah, it taught you a lot.

00:07:09.210 - 00:07:23.150

The neighborhood was predominantly black at that time, a little bit of Hispanic. So I had a really good exposure to, I guess, black culture. And I enjoyed that also.

00:07:23.150 - 00:07:38.750

I had, you know, good friendships with the kids in the neighborhood. There was a beauty salon next door to us. And I remember the lady's name was (Ms. Plattenberg. And on Wednesday night, she would have her

00:07:39.240 - 00:07:55.100

church-kind of meeting. And I would—they—it was there was not much air conditioning at that time, they would have the windows open, and I remember sitting or lying in our driveway and just watching that whole house shake because they would sing and clap.

00:07:55.170 - 00:08:09.010

And I mean, it was really a very strong memory, good memory that I had. [SL: Yeah.] Yeah. Yeah. So there were five of us in my family.

00:08:09.120 - 00:08:20.290

[ SL: Yeah.] Yeah, my sister and I were the older ones. I was the second one. So I think I remember a little bit more than the younger ones. The—my next sister is about five years younger than I am.

00:08:21.140 - 00:08:33.180

And by the time we sold the store, they, you know, they were not that, they're probably six or seven, so they don't have as many memories. But it was a good time. Yeah, it sounds like fun.

00:08:33.200 - 00:08:47.560

[JL: Yeah.] Especially like, I was gonna ask about your grocery store. Child job. Anyways, [ JL: Yeah.] but it seems like there's a lot of teamwork, a lot of like family time. [ JL: Yes, yes.] I guess I like, kind

00:08:48.390 - 00:09:00.670

of leads into like, another question I had, like, it's, I noticed you put down you have four siblings, and you kind of just talked about that. How, how was your relationship with your siblings then? And I guess now as well.

00:09:01.890 - 00:09:13.800

And I guess also with your parents. Yeah. So I would say we're pretty close-knit family. But you know, typical kind of Asian immigrant family. There was definitely a pecking order.

00:09:14.270 - 00:09:29.720

And that dad is number one. So there was a whole lot of "don't tell your dad" or… you know, do things that were needed to be done that he probably, you know, wouldn't approve of.

00:09:30.380 - 00:09:44.410

None of us left to go to college because he just felt like, no, we needed to be home especially being girls. My brother was the next to the youngest. And he, he's passed on.

00:09:44.410 - 00:10:03.710

He, unfortunately, had a heart attack about five or six years ago. But I have him and—the youngest sister—it wasn't until my sister's third, going into our third year of college that she was able to wear him down and talk him into letting her go to the University of

00:10:03.710 - 00:10:16.570

Texas in Austin. But everyone else had to stick close and live at home. So that's, you know, that's just the way it was, I, you know, I kind of have regrets.

00:10:16.570 - 00:10:26.340

I feel like, gosh, I didn't really get to, you know, go off and go to another city for college and live in a dorm, but yeah, it's okay. Everything turned out fine. Yeah.

00:10:26.500 - 00:10:41.790

Yeah. Yeah. So it was basically you four sisters and a little brother. [JL: Yeah.] Yeah, that sounds like a fun family. 1 Mrs. Lee refers in this section to the youngest of her two younger sisters. Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of fighting.

00:10:41.790 - 00:10:55.880

We were very rambunctious. We'd like to tattletale on each other and get each other in trouble, too. But underneath it all, we–we stuck together, and I feel like we're probably even closer now that we're adults now. Are you, are you all in the Houston area still?

00:10:56.840 - 00:11:07.730

Um, three of us are, and then I have one sister who's in Austin, but she comes to Houston fairly frequently. And my mom is still living. My dad passed away about 10 years ago.

00:11:07.730 - 00:11:24.340

I see. I guess, like what were some expectations, values, or lessons that your parents had instilled upon you and your siblings during your upbringing? Um, again, very typical Asian, I mean, the options

00:11:24.950 - 00:11:43.580

were, you go to college number one, then when you go to college, you need to be an engineer, a doctor or lawyer, and [laughs], or a CPA. [SL chuckles] So, you know, a professional position. Probably if we'd gotten into some type of business

00:11:45.190 - 00:12:02.540

program, that would have been okay with the thought that eventually you have your own business. I think that occupations, job opportunities were so limited for my parents. And that's why they started owning their own business, because they realized that was

00:12:02.600 - 00:12:17.830

really the only way to get, get ahead. And so I think that was the path they felt like this is the path that needs to take place for our kids too, that you get into a profession where, perhaps, eventually you can open your own office or business.

00:12:19.080 - 00:12:31.950

Yeah. And then, I guess the last question I have for this section. You did a really good job of answering this already. But do you have any other like special memories from your childhood or early life?

00:12:32.320 - 00:12:50.540

I would, you would like to add before we kind of move forward chronologically? Yeah, yeah. So I would say that, you know, my growing-up years were in the early 60s to the 70s. And that was a time of, it's kind of tumultuous with the Civil Rights

00:12:50.540 - 00:13:09.940

going on. I do remember riots happening down on Dowling Street. But nothing in Houston was, you know, as serious as maybe in some other parts of the country in terms of, you know, violence. And I didn't realize it at the time, but over the years, and in kind of

00:13:09.980 - 00:13:29.420

learning more about what was going on in the city at that time, I realized that we had really good people in the different communities that tried to make certain that the peace was maintained. So leaders in the black community, especially the black

00:13:29.570 - 00:13:45.660

ministers, the white community, and mostly the religious leaders took a role in that. And then even in the Asian community, we had leaders like the Grocery A-Association, and the Restaurant Association.

00:13:47.150 - 00:14:03.960

And I think people just talked, and so it avoided, not everything. I mean, you know, there were bad things that were going on, but I don't think it was near as bad as maybe in a lot of other cities. My own personal experience was in high school.

00:14:04.940 - 00:14:21.780

We went through segregation. Segregated—desegre—I'm sorry, not segregation—desegregation, through busing... which was, like, for example, in Boston, that was a very violent, turbulent period. And in Houston, not not so much.

00:14:21.890 - 00:14:37.500

And I remember, especially at my high school, we ended up with pretty much a third black, a third white, a third, Hispanic, and a few Asians scattered in there. And I remember thinking, wow, this is actually pretty good.

00:14:37.500 - 00:14:53.060

We had a Human Relations Council, which I was part of, [ SL: Wow.] and for the most part, I think, the administration or the teachers or just everybody worked very hard to keep things peaceful and good.

00:14:53.590 - 00:15:05.490

So [ SL: Yeah.] that's what I'll say about my childhood [laughs]. Yeah, I mean, oh, just like curious, what was like the name of the high school you attended? I'm assuming— Sure, this is Stephen F.

00:15:05.620 - 00:15:17.710

Austin High School. It's actually located very close to University of Houston. Currently, I think they're predominantly Hispanic now. Okay, that's good information for the archive at least.

00:15:17.860 - 00:15:35.640

[ JL: Yeah.] I guess that kind of like transitioning to your education. Like, what kind of subjects were you drawn to? Or I guess also, like, repelled from during your high school years, and how did that kind of, like, carry on into college?

00:15:36.770 - 00:15:55.090

Yeah, so I remember, and I don't know if, when this changed, maybe when everybody started suing each other, and there was more liability. But as a kid, we used to go on field trips all the time, like the whole class, they’d take us to the fire station, or the police station, or

00:15:55.750 - 00:16:11.610

bakery. I remember going to like the commercial bakery to watch them, you know, bake loaves of bread, to the bottling fact-factory, and just, you know, things like that. And I remember going on a field trip to the emergency room of Ben Taub hospital.

00:16:13.040 - 00:16:26.090

Yeah, the same things that were like [laughs] you really wouldn’t want your kids to see [SL: Yeah.] I was thinking early on, oh, man, I do not want to be a doctor or something like that. [ SL: Uh-huh.]

00:16:26.090 - 00:16:36.540

And I was pretty math challenged. I had a hard time with math, you know, easy math. If I'm talking about when it got up to like calculus, trig, I was like, oh, my goodness. So that kind of left law.

00:16:37.290 - 00:16:53.780

So I knew pretty early on that I would probably want to end up in law school if I could get in. So in college I majored in, started off as a sociology major, which my dad was really unhappy with. What are you going to do with a sociology major, right?

00:16:53.910 - 00:17:11.490

[ SL:Yeah.] So I switched it to Economics and Business Administration, and then I was able to get into Law School. Wow. I guess, did you have any particularly meaningful experiences while you were in undergraduate?

00:17:12.200 - 00:17:25.790

In undergraduate? Um, well, that's when I started getting serious with my boyfriend who was now my husband. [SL: Oh wow.] So, I kind of remember most of college just, you know, being in love. [Laughs].

00:17:26.840 - 00:17:42.900

And spending way, way more time than I should have with him and, you know, cramming for all my classes. [ SL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.] I remember having to spend a lot of late nights in the library, like starting two days before the test to make up for all the times that

00:17:43.290 - 00:17:56.610

I hadn't been… [laughs] studying. Yeah. Yeah. That worked out, right? Yeah, it worked out. But undergraduate was, you know, pretty much a blur. It was a small school, and so it was nice.

00:17:56.610 - 00:18:13.640

I felt very comfortable there. The neighborhood, of course, you know, in the Montrose area with all the museums and things like that. I do remember a lot of my time in college was spent chauffeuring my younger brother

00:18:14.300 - 00:18:29.060

and sisters because they couldn't drive yet. [ SL: Yeah.] And also working in the family business. That was kind of a, you know, the time went by very quickly. Yeah. Were there any like clubs or activities at your university

00:18:29.060 - 00:18:45.120

that you kind of were involved with? No, there really wasn't, I think I may have been like, maybe in the economics club, because my economics professor kind of encouraged me to do so. Back at that time, there was not really a sports team or anything like that.

00:18:45.290 - 00:19:01.410

They did have fraternities and sororities. But, you know, again, my parents really did not understand that. They barely understood, you know, it is frivolous… is like, I remember having a girlfriend who twirled the baton.

00:19:01.410 - 00:19:11.760

I said, “Oh, I want to take the baton twirling lessons.” “Are you, what the, what is that?” [SL: Yeah.] “What, what purpose? What good is it to twirl a baton? umber parties? What?

00:19:12.080 - 00:19:25.260

You want to stay up all night? Why? What? You can't work?” [SL: Yeah.] So it was a bit of a culture–culture clash for them. [ SL: Yeah.] But, you know, we did a lot.

00:19:25.300 - 00:19:38.350

They, I think they were more lenient or tried to become more open than many parents. [ SL: Yeah.] But still, it was hard for them to understand some of the social action.

00:19:38.350 - 00:19:46.800

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're also like one of the older ones, so I'm sure you were breaking, you know, those barriers for the kids. Yes! Exactly.

00:19:46.840 - 00:20:00.550

Exactly. I'm going to show this transcript to my sister so that, [laughs] they will know how easy they had it, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, I guess like, your university was religious? Or no?

00:20:00.810 - 00:20:18.330

Yes, there was a Catholic University, but yeah, they didn't force a religion on you. [SL: Yeah.] I think, really the main difference was that one of the graduation requirements was, 12 hours of theology and 12 hours of philosophy. And I thought those topics were interesting, so it was not a

00:20:18.710 - 00:20:25.880

hardship to complete those classes. Yeah. You were, you mentioned, you're Catholic? Or your mother was, correct?

00:20:26.520 - 00:20:43.130

Yeah. And my dad converted in order to marry her, [ Oh.] but he didn't really partake. Yeah. Where would you consider yourself a very religious person, or? I would say, we were, we were pretty church going for most most of my life.

00:20:43.180 - 00:20:53.900

Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Um, I guess we can move on a little bit to like your professional degree. [JL: Uh-huh.] You said you went to Law School?

00:20:54.840 - 00:21:06.710

[ JL: Yeah.] How are some of your experiences in Law School, you know, like, compared to undergrad? Yeah. So, you know, I will say that I didn't have a lot of role models.

00:21:06.710 - 00:21:23.300

There were not a lot of, because my, my community that I hung around for the most part, even though I went to high school, and I had some non-Chinese friends, for the most part, the close friends and the activities were all within the Chinese community.

00:21:24.650 - 00:21:41.100

And there were not a lot of professionals that I knew. Mostly they were business owners, and for sure, not so many attorneys. And of all the attorneys that I knew, and there were, you know, maybe less than 10.

00:21:41.270 - 00:21:58.140

And I think almost all of them were immigration attorneys. And there was only one other female attorney, Hannah Chow. And when I went to Law School, there was only one other female Asian Law student, her name was Roberta Yang.

00:21:58.640 - 00:22:13.620

And I think she either was ready to graduate or had just graduated. So if you think about what's going on in law schools now, yeah, how many Asians there are and how many Asian females there are. [ SL: Yeah.] Yeah, yeah.

00:22:13.950 - 00:22:29.860

And then I also did not have any close family members that were attorneys. And so I kind of started law school just pretty naively. [ SL: Yeah.] With[out] knowing that well, you should network, you should get close

00:22:29.860 - 00:22:44.070

to your professors, take internships—you were saying your dog might bark, now my dog is barking [laughs]—[ SL:Yeah.] you should have internships. I mean, you know, I didn't really pursue any of that, like I

00:22:44.070 - 00:23:02.500

should have. But, again, it worked out. But it was very different from the way things are now. Yeah. I guess. It's just part of like, you know, pioneering, I guess? Yeah. Just kind of figure your way around it.

00:23:03.270 - 00:23:12.950

Excuse me just a minute. [ SL: Yeah, yeah, go for it.] Can you get Ellie? Trying to get my husband to get the dog. She, she, I might have to let her out real quick.

00:23:13.500 - 00:23:25.210

Yeah. Don't worry about it. Sorry about that. [ SL: No, no, no.] She–she wanted to be let out. And then, [SL: Yeah.] I'll probably have to get her, get her back.

00:23:25.550 - 00:23:37.830

Oh, yeah. So–so that was Law School. When I graduated from–from Law School, I did not really know what I wanted to do. I, you know, and it's really so silly.

00:23:37.830 - 00:23:53.820

But just because every Asian attorney I knew practiced immigration, I kind of just put the stupid story in my head. Well, you shouldn't deal with immigration, because [ SL: Yeah.] you should do something different. [ SL: Uh-huh.] And I kind of fell into oil and gas

00:23:53.820 - 00:24:10.550

because I had a girlfriend who had already gotten a job. And she's like, well, you know, you should try this out, they really need a lot of help. And so, you know, I did it but it was terrible. I mean, it was just incredibly boring, very transactional work.

00:24:10.550 - 00:24:28.680

Just piles and piles of documents to review. [SL: Yeah.] Before I started working with these oil and gas pooling agreements and mineral leases and things like that, I actually worked for a land man, and a land man is the guy within an energy

00:24:28.680 - 00:24:46.550

organization that actually goes out and gets the leases from the land owners. [ SL: Oh.] And so in order to do that, they have to know who owns the mineral rights to a piece of land. So I did spend almost a year going to all these small Texas towns

00:24:46.600 - 00:25:02.740

where they were the county seat, and going up and digging up old land records. And that was actually kind of interesting, you know, going into East Texas as a young single woman, the little old

00:25:02.740 - 00:25:13.780

ladies at the courthouse, you know, “Are you okay? Are you alright by yourself?” And things like that. So that was an interesting experience. Yep.

00:25:14.520 - 00:25:30.100

Yeah, um, I guess like this is a good segue from education to career. Let's see. You ultimately specialized in business, immigration and [ SL: Yeah.] family immigration, naturalization. I think I read those things.

00:25:30.660 - 00:25:48.500

What kind of ultimately led you to settle in that field? And what kind of, was like your motivation? Yeah, so so, you know, you feel it in your heart, when you start working with people and, you know, hearing their, their life stories and their dreams and

00:25:48.500 - 00:26:01.740

aspirations. It's quite a magnetic pull. And just really, just instantly said, “Ugh, why was I fighting this for so many years? [ laughs] This is great.

00:26:02.710 - 00:26:20.720

This is so interesting.” And so you had that personal contact, the pace was really great. Instead of working on like, one file for months and months at a time and just seeing paper. I mean, you could have clients coming in, you know, almost every hour, [SL:

00:26:20.720 - 00:26:35.530

Oh wow.] and working on, you know, literally hundreds of files at the same time, you know, you work on one, and there's long stretches where the government will do what they need to do. And so it was, you know, helping people.

00:26:35.610 - 00:26:53.720

And the law was interesting and very complicated, very complex. [ SL:Uh-huh.] And that immediate gratification of, “Oh, I got a good result” instead of, you know, having to, like, if you handle that many cases, then every day, you're probably going to get some kind of good news [ SL:

00:26:53.720 - 00:27:08.910

Yeah.] or bad news. Yeah. Yeah. I know, you also like briefly touched upon kind of having a shortage of mentors. But [JL: Yeah.] like, you know, later on throughout your career, were there any particular influences?

00:27:10.010 - 00:27:28.110

Both people or events that kind of guided you along the way? Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, Gordon Quan, and I would say that he was very pivotal in, you know, my career choice and getting me started. And the other attorneys in the firm, there were a

00:27:28.110 - 00:27:45.850

few of them that were also just that just, you know, was like a sponge and learn not just the law, but how to deal with people, or in some cases, how not to deal with people. Because you can see examples of both. A lot of women attorneys, and then the immigration

00:27:47.300 - 00:28:05.530

bar, I would say, in the—throughout the country, and in the city of Houston, is a very collegial bar. So, instead of you know, backstabbing and trying to steal clients, and things like that, people would help, help each other kind of against a common enemy, I

00:28:05.530 - 00:28:20.500

guess you'd call it, which would be the government. [ SL: Yeah.] I really enjoyed learning from all, all of those folks. And especially the women, there were a fair number of women, not,

00:28:20.560 - 00:28:39.400

not Asian, but women attorneys and very good role models. [ SL: Yeah.] So I really, really did enjoy my career for a long time. As I got further in my career, then a big part of my practice was kind of managing—doing firm management and mentoring younger

00:28:39.400 - 00:28:53.840

attorneys. So, [ SL: Yeah.] it was very rewarding also. Enjoyed that. Did you work for the same firm for that stretch of time, or did you—? Well, it's a little complicated because we had some mergers.

00:28:54.150 - 00:29:09.630

And we kind of grew through two firms coming together. And then people coming and going, yeah. By the time I left, the firm was called Foster Global. And we probably had at least 40 attorneys.

00:29:09.840 - 00:29:24.980

[SL: Wow.] Yeah. And a big office in Houston, a ightly smaller office in Austin. And then we had these little satellite offices, kind of all over the world, in China and in Latin America.

00:29:25.600 - 00:29:34.800

Yeah. [ SL: Wow.] Yeah. That was fun to watch that expansion also. Uh huh. Yeah. It seems like you're really part of this, like growing movement.

00:29:34.900 - 00:29:53.120

[JL: Yeah.] And I guess like, you know, big question I had for you, and you definitely touched on a few times already, it's like, how was it for you personally, being both, you know, an Asian American and a female in the law field? You know, that's definitely not common during your time period, and I'm sure it's

00:29:53.120 - 00:30:11.100

improving now, but still, you know, one of those things that there's a lot of like glass ceiling I want to say, in that, that area? Yeah, yeah, I think there were, you know, I think you can't devote too much energy or thought to

00:30:11.710 - 00:30:26.970

other people's perceptions of you. And looking back, I think that I was just so busy, you know, you just kind of just—just do your work, do good work, do your best, be kind to other people.

00:30:27.990 - 00:30:39.340

Be generous. I think the only regret that I have is sometimes I feel like I could have been more generous with my, my time or, or with, when to call it bringing other people along.

00:30:39.340 - 00:30:54.560

But it took me a long time to get my footing to be able to have the bandwidth to do that. But once I did do it, I thought, thought, "Oh, this is even better. This is great. Being able to do that." Yeah.

00:30:54.860 - 00:31:13.610

We had an Asian American Bar Association here in Houston. And I remember, probably I was one of the first members because I can remember there being like, maybe 12 people sitting around a table, in a Chinese restaurant, or Japanese restaurant or

00:31:13.610 - 00:31:29.650

wherever we can meet. And that organization has just grown tremendouy. And when I see what they're doing and how dynamic the members are, a lot of the younger attorneys, Asian attorneys have gotten on with

00:31:29.900 - 00:31:47.240

big law firms, you know, the national law firms, which was really, you know, just not possible. Yeah. When I got out of Law School, there were not even offers to interview. [ SL:Yeah.] It was very difficult to get your foot in the door to

00:31:47.240 - 00:31:59.170

any major law firms. Yeah. That's great. Um, I guess then, like, just, like digging a little deeper, like, did you have any accounts of like, discrimination

00:31:59.340 - 00:32:13.330

or like, you know, cultural challenges, both with, you know, like, your clients? I guess, maybe not, since you've kind of specialized in immigration. Right. Right. [SL: But—] I think the immigration clients were probably a little more, you know,

00:32:14.490 - 00:32:27.640

open, I guess, [ SL: Yeah.] although there were some from, you know, from very patriarchal societies. [ SL: Yeah.] That didn't like the fact that I was female, that, but they were by and large, they got over themselves.

00:32:27.640 - 00:32:46.580

Yeah. If you tell them, “This is what I think about your case,” and you speak with authority and confidence, then, you know, it kind of overcame a lot of that. So I think that's the main thing is once you become competent and confident, then a lot of that just falls by the

00:32:46.580 - 00:33:02.190

wayside. I would say that, you know, there probably were people who had their perceptions of me, but I don't think I really, if I gave it much of a crossing thought it was very minimal time spent on people like that. You just do what you need to do.

00:33:02.730 - 00:33:15.580

Yeah, I like that. I like that mindset a lot. [JL: Yeah.] And you did mention, you know, the Asian American like lawyer, Bar Association? [JL: Yes.] Do you, I was curious, like, Do you have any like,

00:33:17.310 - 00:33:33.110

other like, you know, professional involvements around, you know, Houston that you were kind of a big part of? Yeah, so the Asian American Bar Association, I was not tremendouy active in that, because I was really spending a considerable amount of time with the

00:33:33.470 - 00:33:50.330

Immigration Bar. Asian—it was called the American Immigration Lawyers Association, or AILA. And I was quite active in that, and did a lot of volunteering, speaking at conferences, I was the, [ SL: Yeah.] Chapter Chair for Texas, New

00:33:50.330 - 00:34:08.060

Mexico and Oklahoma for a year, that almost ate my lunch… that was a lot of work. So professionally, that's where most of my time went. And then my kids, I have three boys and a lot of time

00:34:08.060 - 00:34:25.970

spent, you know, going to soccer games, baseball games, things like that. Although my husband did a lot of that, there came a time when he sold his business, and we decided instead of him going back to work that. This is when my youngest was about six years old.

00:34:26.580 - 00:34:42.980

And I said, you know, “Why don't you just take care of all that?” So he really stepped up and became active in the PTO, [ SL: Yeah.] An assistant—not just assistant but Scout master for the Boy Scouts, and I have three Eagle Scouts, all three boys.

00:34:46.990 - 00:34:58.930

Yeah, then I guess like sort of, you know, moving away from professional more to like, you know, personal and like community involvement. Like, are there anything like any organizations that you're actively involved with, within your community?

00:34:59.330 - 00:35:12.190

It doesn't have to be law-related obviouy. Yeah, yeah. So I would say community involvement outside of school activities, there's always been the CACA, the Chinese American Citizens Alliance.

00:35:12.270 - 00:35:29.900

[ SL: Uh huh.] And I can't say that I've been super active, but I, you know, did attend a few meetings and would go to most of their functions. And when I was growing up, my dad was super involved in a lot of Chinese organizations. There was a Lee Family Association,

00:35:31.150 - 00:35:44.580

and he was very active in that. And then there was an Association of Family Associations. And I don't know exactly how you say it, but I think it was called Jung Wah or something like that. And I don't think—that was Cantonese, maybe.

00:35:45.960 - 00:36:03.590

And so he was active in that organization also. And I think it was really important for those people in the community to get together, and they were resources to help each other out. You know, they shared information, they shared contacts, networking,

00:36:04.350 - 00:36:19.450

most of them were in business. [ SL: I see] Later on, as more professionals came in from Hong Kong and Taiwan, and then there were like, more engineers and accountants and things like that. There was a Chinese, Chinese professional organization,

00:36:22.440 - 00:36:36.090

the CPC—Chinese Professional Club, and my parents were involved in that also. [ SL: I see] So not, not so much myself though. Yeah. And church, right? You mentioned you still go to church, pretty regularly with your family?

00:36:36.610 - 00:36:49.120

I'm sorry. So go where? Oh, church? Well, I, I do except once COVID hit, I kind of laid off on that. And I'm getting ready to go back.

00:36:49.430 - 00:37:01.690

My sister just went back, so. [ SL: Oh.] But the Catholic Church and most of the, most of the Chinese, the early Chinese families, actually were Baptists. That's my husband's family included.

00:37:02.210 - 00:37:16.650

[ SL: Yeah.] His parents and his aunt were like, founding members of the Chinese Baptist Church or CBC. And that, that group is still very, very active. And so I actually go to some of their functions also, when they have a Chinese

00:37:16.760 - 00:37:31.890

Chinese New Year event or something like that. But that's been a really good organization for keeping those early Chinese families together still. Yeah. Um, and then kind of like shifting into just

00:37:32.320 - 00:37:41.090

general perspectives of, you know, you as a person, I guess. Well, firstly, you're retired. So congratulations, yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

00:37:41.090 - 00:37:53.150

It's wonderful. But, you know, now that you're retired, like, are there any things that you kind of look back on your career and wish, like regrets, but also, like, you know, like, things you're proud of?

00:37:54.080 - 00:38:10.710

Yeah, I guess. Does that make sense? Yeah, I, I look back and, and I think I am pretty proud of myself for, for, you know, what I've been able to achieve entering into the profession being just a, the first thing—the first thing that comes to

00:38:10.710 - 00:38:22.920

my mind is, I was kind of a knucklehead. I mean, I was just so oblivious and unaware of what I should be doing. You know. [ SL:Yeah.] And I just kind of, you know, I kind of stumbled my way through.

00:38:22.920 - 00:38:38.440

You know, I took a–I took a—almost a 10 year hiatus from the law while I was working for my parents. So by the time I got back into immigration law, I was, you know, 30—I don't remember how old I was, but it was over 35 for sure.

00:38:38.680 - 00:38:48.940

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I guess, you know, also on tangent with like, retirement. It's just like, what are you doing now? You know, like, what hobbies or recreations do you have? You know.

00:38:49.460 - 00:39:04.140

Yeah, oh, gosh, there's never a, a dull moment. I, I really am enjoying not being on a schedule. But it's a, that's a double-edged sword because if you don't, if you're not, if you're not on a schedule, you're not managing your time.

00:39:04.280 - 00:39:17.380

And I really fritter away a lot of time with reading. And you just start going down a rabbit hole at—you know. I have like four or five newspaper subscriptions, and I just start clicking on this and that on digital.

00:39:18.040 - 00:39:32.900

And I don't do TikTok or anything like that. But I'll get on Facebook, and then I'll click, you know, this and that. And Amazon has been terrible. I'm like, Oh my God.

00:39:33.250 - 00:39:46.420

[SL: Yeah.] But I, now that COVID is kind of dying down, we finally have started traveling again. That's always been really big. My husband and I both really enjoy traveling a lot, a lot. We like hiking, we like getting out.

00:39:47.260 - 00:40:01.650

So we're trying to line up trips that are more strenuous that we can do them before our knees give out, you know. [ SL: laughs] My mom has not been in the best of health, so a lot of time is spent with taking care of her

00:40:01.900 - 00:40:13.330

situation along with my sisters. No, it's kind of it takes, it takes all of us really, [ SL: Yeah.] to handle that. But that’s that. [ SL: Uh-huh.]

00:40:13.330 - 00:40:27.590

How about your children? I don't know if I saw how old they were now, but how are they doing? [JL: Oh.] I’m guessing—you don't have to, like micromanage them or anything—. No, no, no, I'm very proud of my kids. They've done great.

00:40:27.900 - 00:40:39.420

So my oldest one is 38. [ SL:Oh, okay. Yeah.] He's all grown up. And he lives in Dallas, and he works in the financial services industry. And he's got the travel bug too.

00:40:39.420 - 00:40:56.150

He likes to travel. [ laughs] He is very much into music. So he loves to attend concerts and a lot of his friends were drummers. He used to be a drummer back in college. Not necessarily in a rock band, but you know, like drumline?

00:40:56.150 - 00:41:04.930

Have you ever seen the drumline? Like at [SL: Yeah.] college games and things like that? Yeah, some of them were rock bands, too. So anyway, he, he really enjoys that.

00:41:05.580 - 00:41:19.450

My second son is in Seattle. And he's a—human factors engineering was his major, so he works for one of the tech companies. He's married. And he's doing great in Seattle.

00:41:20.390 - 00:41:34.670

And then the youngest is 26. And he's an electrical engineer, and he's in Dallas also. [ SL: Oh, nice.] He's working on, I think, wearable medical devices. [ SL: Yeah. Oh, that's cool.] Yeah, that's an achievement also, I think

00:41:34.670 - 00:41:46.960

to get all three of them off the parental payroll. [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah. They're all good. [ JL: They're all good, yeah. They're great.] I guess, like, kind of like, going back to, you know,

00:41:48.260 - 00:42:06.870

like values from your upbringing, what are some values or like, lessons you tried to give your kids as, you know, a parent? Well, you know, a lot of the lessons about, you know, get into a practical degree that you can earn a living with, because you want to, you

00:42:06.870 - 00:42:22.410

know, make money and get a certain standard of living, and then everything else that you want to do that's, you know, speaks to your heart, you can probably do it through volunteer work, you know. If you're lucky enough to be able to do it in your career, that's all the better.

00:42:22.840 - 00:42:37.840

But, you know, I don't know if they really have bought that, you know, it's a different generation [laughs]. [SL: Yeah.] But I think it's still sound advice. Maybe people won’t agree with me, but I think that, especially as,

00:42:38.600 - 00:42:53.540

you know, my parents worked so hard. And parents of our—my generation worked so hard, and made sure that we all tried to get good educations, so that we could get good paying jobs, so that we can have a certain standard of living.

00:42:53.790 - 00:43:11.940

You don't have to have a Lamborghini, but you know, you want to at least be able to buy a, you know, Honda or, you know, a Ford something, you know. [ SL: Yeah, yeah.] Have a roof over your head in a safe neighborhood, things like that. So, better take care of that first, and, you know, everything else is

00:43:11.940 - 00:43:28.990

just up to, you know, what you want and desire. But I do think if you just, you know, if your kids are given, like, if they're not given, given certain boundaries or at least encouraged to stay within certain boundaries, I think sometimes some of them

00:43:28.990 - 00:43:43.910

can get a little bit too lost with too much choice. [ SL: Yeah.] People may argue, you know, I'm open to having a discussion about that. [SL: Yeah.] But I I'm thinking, Yeah. I mean, you have what, like, 30, 40

00:43:43.910 - 00:43:52.790

extra years of experience. I'm sure some of it will come in handy to them. Right? So. Yeah, we, we have really enjoyed them as adults.

00:43:53.330 - 00:44:08.970

We take family vacations, we enjoy getting together. You know, when we can, it's unfortunate, they're all outside of Houston. But they say, “Mom, we can't take the weather.” You know, “it's just too hot and humid.” [SL: Yeah.] But we meet and travel and get together, we really have

00:44:08.970 - 00:44:19.990

a nice time. We have good discussions. [ SL: Yeah. It’s like—] Yeah, they don't agree with me on everything. I'll still tell them this. You can have your opinion, I can have mine, right?

00:44:21.210 - 00:44:37.570

Yeah. I guess this is a fun question. Like, if you could only use three words to describe yourself, what would they be and why? Oh, three words. The first one I'd say would be grateful, very grateful, very thankful

00:44:37.590 - 00:44:55.670

for, for all the opportunity, all the love that I received as a kid growing up and the guidance and the hard work and sacrifice that my parents made. Lot of gratitude. The second one, second word and… this is a word to describe me or what I

00:44:55.670 - 00:45:09.270

feel or what? I think to describe yourself, but honestly go for whatever you want to say. [ laughs] I'll even give you four words if you want. If I want, oh, gosh, you're gonna make me start rambling.

00:45:09.390 - 00:45:22.400

Okay, so I wake up every morning feeling very grateful. I covered that. The other thing would be to pay attention to your health. And you know, that was just kind of like everybody would say that.

00:45:22.400 - 00:45:38.310

And your parents would always say, you know, “If you don't have your health, you don't…” But now I'm kind of really seeing that. As my parents generation are aging, I realized that man, if you don't take care of yourself every day, and it's not easy, because we grew up in a

00:45:38.310 - 00:45:52.970

grocery store before, there was very much information out there about healthy eating. And I mean, we ate those, you know, Ding Dongs, that Little Debbie's and Honey Buns, whatever.

00:45:53.340 - 00:46:06.500

And we had good food, too. But yeah, we had a lot of a lot of snack, pizza every day. Take care of yourself. And I guess the other thing would be, you know, make sure to take care of other people. Give as much as you can give, you know, of your time,

00:46:06.880 - 00:46:25.820

your money, you know, whatever you have to give, give. Yeah, I guess I have some, like, general questions, like, you know, as someone who grew up in Houston, spent most of their you know, like childhood here, the educational life here, and then, you know, professional life here, now

00:46:25.820 - 00:46:34.080

just, you're just living here. Like, how have you seen this city, like, grow? You know, like, I'm sure it's a much different place now than it was a long time ago.

00:46:34.830 - 00:46:53.430

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's really, really tremendouy different. I mean, I think back when I was a child, we rode the bus a lot. And I remember being able to get on a bus when I was like, nine years old and go downtown and go buy things that at that time, it was called Foley's, now it's

00:46:53.430 - 00:47:06.810

Macy's. At the department store, and my mom would have a little note, and she just sent me on the bus. And I mean, can you imagine? That'd be like child abuse now [Laughs]. Your nine-year-old child girl by herself downtown on a bus?

00:47:06.810 - 00:47:24.000

[ SL:Yeah. Um-hum.] But things were ower paced. And I think there was just a lot more trust in people that they would do the right thing. [ SL: Yeah.] And by and large, you know, people did do the right thing. On the other hand, back in those times, I think there probably was a lot of

00:47:24.340 - 00:47:39.010

denial of opportunity, because of racial prejudice, you know, discrimination. [ SL:Yeah.] So that's a bad thing. Back then, there was not that much of a choice in terms of going out to eat in a

00:47:39.010 - 00:47:55.150

restaurant. I mean, pretty much you cooked at home. So if you think of Houston right now is quite a foodie, foodie town. [SL: Oh yeah.] And that's fun, that you can go, you know, anywhere and get any kind of food from, you know, Ethiopian, Guatemalan, and Malaysian,

00:47:55.150 - 00:48:11.340

I mean, just any country you name, you'd be able to find the food here. [ SL: Yeah.] And that, by and large, I mean, there is such an opportunity for business. You know, there's not a, you know, it's just sounds so

00:48:11.600 - 00:48:23.760

cliché, but if you want to work hard, and if you treat people right, you can definitely succeed. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Houston is like the fourth largest city now.

00:48:24.490 - 00:48:39.340

Yeah, I think it might be creeping up to third largest. [ SL: Yeah, it's… ] There's always been an openness and accepting of Houstonians to allow people to succeed and do their best. There's a lot of respect for, for hard work.

00:48:40.430 - 00:48:56.060

Yeah, it's, it's an amazing, really diverse city. [ JL: Yeah.] I guess like, you know, a question I had was, like, I guess kind of goes back to like, what you're saying, like, when you were growing up, I guess, in like, the 60s and 70s, there was a lot of like, social movement, right?

00:48:57.290 - 00:49:12.840

And, like, I feel like we we can kind of see that in today's time as well, especially, you know, like the passing COVID, there's like the whole BLM that, like grows, and then even more recently, the AAPI like, community has been getting a lot stronger, right?

00:49:13.210 - 00:49:28.210

[JL: Yeah.] Like, how would you say, you know, like, how would you say you've witnessed sort of all of these things in Houston, at least, you know, the Houston community? Well, I would say that prior to, and I'll just put it right out

00:49:28.260 - 00:49:48.320

there, prior to the election of Trump, I had so much optimism, [SL: Yeah.] and Houston was like, there's nothing stopping anybody in Houston, and that the people were, by and large, more kind, more generous, more open, more giving, more optimistic

00:49:49.610 - 00:50:03.750

than any other city in the world. [SL: Um-hum.] Very high on Houston. I would say that, unfortunately, I think that there's been some hidden elements or some suppression of you

00:50:04.310 - 00:50:19.420

know, how some people feel. And they realize that maybe they shouldn't feel that way or didn't feel comfortable expressing how they feel. And I'm talking about, you know, basically fascist,

00:50:20.510 - 00:50:39.600

[laugh] fascist tendencies of people who, you know, feel like they're superior or better and that, you know, the this country or this city is only for them, and nobody else should be here but them, for whatever. [SL:Yeah.] And I think some of that bubbling up and has been kind of

00:50:39.600 - 00:50:53.000

shocking for me. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. [ SL:Yeah.] Yeah, their harassment of Asians, you know, [ SL: Yeah.] For COVID or whatever reason, I don't know, what's gotten into to people's

00:50:53.000 - 00:51:09.290

heads, but still working on that, on how to, you know… what do you call it—become optimistic again. Yeah, I think it's really saddening to hear all of these events, you know, and all these hate crimes and things like that.

00:51:09.910 - 00:51:26.860

But it also makes me feel better knowing like, there are people out there who wants to make a difference. And like, Houston itself is pretty liberal, I feel like, with a lot of movements going on. At least within my experience is like, kind of contained within the Rice area, within like the downtown area, and not so much a large

00:51:26.860 - 00:51:38.450

suburban communities… Yeah definitely loop 6-10 has a little bit of an insular bubble. Yeah. Yeah. But um, yeah, actually, I had like a couple questions

00:51:38.740 - 00:51:56.750

about COVID-19. Like, I guess you could say, maybe it's dying down now, but still very relevant pandemic, I think. And it spiked in like, 2020, right? And I see you retired in 2020, so hopefully, you didn't experience too many disruptions

00:51:57.160 - 00:52:08.410

in your, like, daily life with it? I kind of did. [ SL: Really?] I had a lot of plans, especially, Oh, I'm retired now. I'm gonna go travel. [SL: Ah, yeah.] So that really curtailed the–the travel

00:52:08.450 - 00:52:25.450

plans. And, and also, I mean, we just didn't get together with people. I mean, we stayed home a lot, a lot. We set up a few family zoom calls and things like that, but but on the other hand, it you know, it kind of made you more introspective.

00:52:25.450 - 00:52:31.630

We started cooking a lot more. [Laughs]. Yeah, yeah. We walked the dog a lot.

00:52:31.630 - 00:52:39.430

So she probably got healthier, you know. [Laughs]. [Laughs] Yeah. No, I've heard like, lots of people say like, oh, yeah, like, obviouy COVID is

00:52:39.430 - 00:52:48.100

terrible and all but I think there's some like silver linings to, you know, being locked in quarantine with your loved ones. So. Exactly, exactly.

00:52:48.100 - 00:53:04.690

Yeah. And then I think, just kind of coming from the parents that I did, because both my parents went through World War II, like in, in war torn countries, like my dad was in China, and my mom was in Europe… [ SL:Oh.] as children.

00:53:04.780 - 00:53:16.070

Yeah. So I think that we grew up a lot with you know, don't even start telling us how hard you have it. You know, you don't know what hard is. You don't know what a hard life is.

00:53:16.260 - 00:53:32.720

[ SL: Yeah.] Still remember those stories. Uh-huh. Yeah, I guess, you picked up any new hobbies or recreations during that time or no? Um, I've been trying to get involved in some of

00:53:32.780 - 00:53:46.020

these series that are on all of these. I mean, I didn't even I didn't have time, so I really didn't know. Even how to get on to Netflix. [ laughs] Or, you know, I mean, we have so many TV wands.

00:53:46.020 - 00:54:00.340

I didn't even know which one to use or anything. I would say that’s the only thing I learned how to do, [laughs] find my entertainment on, on cable TV. I mean, seems like you're more of an outdoors person.

00:54:01.350 - 00:54:14.090

Thankfully, you can get some traveling and hopefully—. Yeah, yeah, no, we, we've done okay. Yeah. With plan, plans for more. I started reading a lot more books for fun.

00:54:14.520 - 00:54:23.170

The public library is great. You can get books online now. [ SL: Yeah.] And yeah, hundreds of thousands of titles. So that's, that's awesome.

00:54:23.170 - 00:54:35.130

I still like paper, too. [SL: Yeah.] But, I do both. Yeah, I guess like, those are the bulk of my questions. You've done a wonderful job of like answering them.

00:54:35.580 - 00:54:52.610

Are there anything else like you'd like to share? I mean, let's say like, to the people who may be watching this later. What would—do you have any advice for like students or people who are interested in law, but maybe not just specifically law, just like kind of, you know, pioneering like you

00:54:52.610 - 00:55:07.700

did, you know, pursuing their passions? Do you have any lessons? Yeah, I would say that, you know, definitely if, if you're so inclined, and you can stay in school that you know, [ SL: Yeah.] even if it's not the, you know,

00:55:07.700 - 00:55:22.090

your favorite thing to do, but you can do it and just, you know, it will open doors for you. [ SL: Yeah.] But if not, if not, what I've learned is that there are many circuitous ways to success in life.

00:55:22.720 - 00:55:41.600

And if you really, school is just not for you, then do something else and just apply yourself to it, and you will come out just fine, you will come out just fine. I think people just have to have that perseverance and be willing to sacrifice, be willing to do

00:55:41.640 - 00:55:52.520

the work, and get, get really, really good at what you like to do, and success will come to you. And don't leave other people behind. Everybody should be lifting each other up.

00:55:53.910 - 00:56:04.860

I like those words. [ JL:Good.] Yeah. Um, well, I guess that's all I have for you. Do you have any other like final words or final thoughts? Like, you've done a really good job of answering my questions.

00:56:04.860 - 00:56:18.730

So um… No, I guess I'm sure after we get off this call, I will think of all kinds of things I should have said. But [ JL: Yeah.] you got a lot of information from me that I've enjoyed sharing and you've done a great job

00:56:18.730 - 00:56:24.480

interviewing. Thank you. I'll end the recording for this part for here right now. [Interview concludes.]